Red Robes and White Smoke: Selecting a New Pope

What really happens when the world’s most powerful religious leaders lock themselves in a room to choose the next pope? In this episode, we unpack the mystery and meaning of the papal conclave following the death of Pope Francis. With insights from Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant guests, we explore the rituals, the history, and the global significance of this ancient process. Along the way, we reflect on Francis’s legacy, the future of the papacy, and even play a round of Pope or Nope. Whether you're religious or just curious, this is your behind-the-scenes look at one of Christianity’s most sacred and secretive traditions.

The views expressed on Church Potluck are solely those of the participants and do not represent any organization.

Transcript

Introduction to Church Potluck

Speaker 1 0:00

I press record button and I think we are starting. So where's everybody on their exam schedule now?

Speaker 2 0:17

Just gave my last exam, but still have lots of grading to do.

Speaker 3 0:21

Yeah, I gave my last earlier this morning and still have a lot of grading to do. I have one to go on Wednesday and have a lot of grading to do. Yeah, I gave my last earlier this morning and still have a lot of grading to do.

Speaker 4 0:26

I have one to go on Wednesday and have a lot of grading to do.

Speaker 1 0:30

Well, today, I think it's very likely that I took my last class teaching intro to sociology. Oh, wow. Yep, so I'm going to halftime from here on out for the next two years, but I think the way my department is using me is for all upper levels.

Speaker 2 0:44

So it's possible. Oh wow, Congratulations.

Speaker 1 0:47

Yeah, although I enjoy teaching intro very much, so it's kind of bittersweet, but there's a lot of sweet in there for sure. Yeah, well, welcome everyone to Church Potluck, where we are serving up a smorgasbord of Christian curiosity. I'm your host, dale McConkie, sociology professor and United Methodist pastor. I might not be able to say that very long either, I'm going to have to say retired United Methodist pastor. That's coming up as well. You know, there are two keys to a good church potluck plenty of variety and engaging conversation. And this is exactly what we are trying to do here at Church Potluck sitting down with friends and sharing our ideas on a variety of topics from a variety of academic disciplines and a variety of Christian traditions. All right, well, let us welcome our guests. Let's see what order do we want to do this First? We'll start with. We'll just go around the table. How about that? So first we have Dr Michael Papazian, all right, Hi, dr Papazian, how are you doing? I've been doing pretty well. Good, it's been a while, so why don't you reintroduce yourself to the audience?

Speaker 3 1:50

I'm Professor of Philosophy here at Burry and I just finished. I think it's actually the same year as Larry's 27th year, yeah.

Speaker 4 1:58

All right, that's cool.

Speaker 3 1:59

Yeah, it doesn't feel like 27 years.

Speaker 4 2:01

Feels like 107.

Speaker 3 2:04

Actually to me. Yeah, it feels like five years. Oh wow, it went fast.

Speaker 1 2:08

So you average out to 27.

Speaker 4 2:11

That's correct, that's right.

Speaker 1 2:12

Well good, it's good to have you here so much as always. I love that you are a regular on the program. We have another regular with us, Dr Christy Snyder. Hello, yeah.

Speaker 4 2:45

How are you? Hi, larry, how are you doing? I'm doing just fine. I am professor of history at Berry College and I am a medieval historian, so I know some of the early stuff.

Speaker 1 2:55

Well, excellent, well. I'm looking forward to hearing from all of you, but, larry, you are semi-regular. Michael and Christy come on all the time, and so they've already gotten theirs, but you ought to be our first person outside of the inner circle to get a church potluck mug.

Speaker 2 3:10

Yeah, yeah, that gets yeah so there you go, thank you.

Speaker 3 3:14

Our listeners can't see it.

Speaker 4 3:16

Yeah, no, I mean, they would be amazed.

Speaker 2 3:17

They'd be blown away. Wow, as I am, well, thank you very much.

Speaker 4 3:21

That was very kind.

Speaker 1 3:22

See, they can just imagine it the neon lights and the, the smile on my face.

Speaker 4 3:28

That's right.

Speaker 1 3:29

But, anyway, we are very grateful that you are here. So what are we going to be talking about today? Anybody recognize the music? I don't think they use it anymore, but this is. It sounds like graduation, doesn't it? Yeah, maybe some schools do use it, but this is called the March Triumphant. I don't think it's used for papal ceremonies as much as it used to, but this is what this was, because we are going to talk about the Pope.

Speaker 1 4:04

Actually, here's the intro. I put my intro in the chat GPT and said can you clean this up? And I gave her permission. I said you just keep my voice, but you can add something if you want. And here's what it said. It said here's a cleaned up version of your intro, improving the rhythm, the clarity and punch. And then it says, and with a touch of added weight and drama, oh wow. So here's what chat GPT has said weight and drama, oh wow. So here's what Chad GPT has said Pope Francis, head of the Catholic Church for 12 years, dead, a global spiritual leader, a Jesuit, a reformer, a symbol of change.

Speaker 1 4:42

Now a vacancy, now a choice. The time has come to. Now a vacancy, now a choice. The time has come to select a new pope? A conclave, a secret gathering of cardinals Locked inside, no phones, no cameras, just prayer ballots and holy smoke. But how does it work? How is a pope chosen? What happens behind the Vatican walls and why should any of us care? What does this mean for Christendom, for the world, even for those of us who aren't Catholic? Let's find out from our esteemed guests. So what would you give ChatGPT on that? A little too dramatic.

Speaker 2 5:20

A little too much, a little over the top, I agree, all right, I too much, a little over the top.

Pope Francis: Reflecting on His Papacy

Speaker 1 5:22

I agree. All right, I agree, but I got a chuckle out of it, so I thought maybe our audience would as well. Well, this is kind of funny for us to be talking about the selection of a new pope when three quarters of us aren't Catholic. And Christy, you are our token resident Catholic, as you've already mentioned, so I would like you to now speak on behalf of the 1.4 billion Catholics across the country. What are Catholics thinking right now? What's going on through their mind?

Speaker 2 5:51

Well, I think most of us are just kind of in waiting. I don't feel like there's a lot of—I think most Catholics will be very accepting of whatever happens. Accepting of whatever happens, Most people aren't going to be like oh well, now I'm out of the church because I don't like the direction that the cardinals have gone, and so there's always a little bit of excitement, though Maybe some people fear, but as far as I could tell, most are not.

Speaker 1 6:19

Is there an odd transition of both the mourning of a Pope and then, but also the immediately, the anticipation and the excitement of newness as well, or yeah, I think so.

Speaker 2 6:29

I mean you know, although the morning I think you know kind of last, maybe a week, yeah, just because you don't have that kind of close relationship as much as you, you know might read things or you know, or know about what they're doing and especially when the Pope has lived a good long life.

Speaker 1 6:48

Yes, yeah, yeah, absolutely, and this is a fairly rare event. I think there have been five popes in my lifetime, and one of them was a pope for 33 days, and so really just four popes in my lifetime. I don't know if this is an interesting story to anybody but me, but I actually have a very vivid memory of when Pope John Paul I died the one who only served for 33 days because I was a newspaper delivery boy and I was folding the newspapers in the morning and I don't remember what the headline was, but I got about halfway through my bundle of papers and the papers changed. There was a new headline and it was that the Pope had died.

Speaker 2 7:26

Oh, wow.

Speaker 1 7:27

And so they had stopped the presses and then they had started it back up with the different headlines. When was that? I forgot 1978. Okay, I was about 13 years old, right, yeah?

Speaker 3 7:37

I remember the announcement of his death and I thought it was like a repeat news show, because it was Paul VI who had just passed away a month before. Yeah, oh, we're doing this again.

Speaker 4 7:49

Yeah, yeah, that's probably what they were saying too.

Speaker 1 7:51

We got to do this again, yeah probably, they probably just gone back and settled back down in their routine and let's do it all over again. Well, let's just do a very quick reflection on Pope Francis. And again, very few of us are Catholic. But, christy, you might want to get us started, or anybody else. What is your sense of who Pope Francis was to the Catholic Church and to the world at large?

Speaker 2 8:13

Well, I do think that you know Pope Francis spoke to many Catholics in his kind of desire to serve the less fortunate and the poor, his kind of eschewing a lot of the pomp maybe.

Speaker 1 8:30

Yes, especially early on, the press, I know, made a big deal out of how he was carrying his own luggage and doing very many symbolic interactions like that.

Speaker 2 8:39

Yeah, not living, I think, in the formal kind of quarters of the Vatican that popes normally inhabit. And I mean, I think for a lot of people that was, yes, symbolic, but also really said something about what he valued and what he believed in. I think he was also still very kind of pastoral as far as like kind of wanting to reach out to a wide variety of people and serve. Just the fact, like you know, when he would, during Lenten periods, wash the feet of people who were imprisoned and things like that, it's just I really think that a lot of people saw that as maybe a direction they hadn't seen the church going in a long time.

Speaker 1 9:22

And a few people were a little concerned about that, maybe more than a few people that there was a traditionalist conservative wing that thought, maybe that even though I don't think Francis was known as a wild reformer but there was still a tone there that was more liberal, more progressive than some Catholics would want.

Speaker 2 9:38

Yeah, that's true. Although he didn't really change doctrine, he talked differently about things. That's a good way of putting it, I think yeah.

Speaker 1 9:46

Excellent, excellent. So, michael, you are from the Orthodox tradition, so you are Catholic-adjacent. As far as we Protestants are concerned, that is correct.

Speaker 3 9:54

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 9:55

So any impressions from that point of view?

Speaker 3 9:58

Well, I've got both. I guess I can speak more broadly from the perspective of Eastern Christianity. Pope Francis has had very close relations with the Orthodox, especially with the ecumenical patriarch Bartholomew I, who is kind of like considered the first among equals of the Eastern Orthodox patriarchs, but also- which would be in the same line as cardinals, right, yeah.

Speaker 3 10:22

So he's the patriarch of Constantinople and so that also was an apostolic see founded by St Andrew, just as Rome was for the first see of Peter, and there's been always a very warm relations between the Orthodox and the Catholics, and Francis in general, I think, has been very open to engagement with the Orthodox.

Speaker 1 10:51

Christians, and that's something that's relatively new, if I'm right, and that's something that actually you've been quite involved with.

Speaker 3 10:56

Yes, yeah, I mean it's not that new, it's gone back. I mean I think we can trace it even earlier. But I mean, john Paul II was very close to the Orthodox as well, himself being an Eastern European from Poland. Of course had connections with the Slavic world as well, and that's like 1960s, right Pope John Paul II would have been. He passed away in, I believe, in 2004. So if we go even earlier, john XXIII.

Speaker 1 11:21

So, larry, that's recent history, right? Yeah, that's very recent, that's yesterday. That's yesterday for the historian Current events, that's right.

Speaker 3 11:27

Yeah, so I think Francis was not an innovator in terms of his relations with the East, but he definitely made it an important part of his papacy. For me personally, my most recent book would not have been written without Pope.

Speaker 1 11:43

Francis, okay, not to do that. Go ahead and plug your book.

Speaker 3 11:47

Well, that's good, because I need more sales. In 2019,. I published a book called the Doctor of Mercy. It was published by Liturgical Press, which is a Catholic press at St John's University in Abbey in Minnesota, and the book is about an Armenian saint, a poet primarily, and a theologian, who lived in the 10th century, his name is-, but when you say Armenian Orthodox, right, armenian Orthodox, well there's-.

Speaker 1 12:14

Okay.

Speaker 4 12:15

Interesting yes.

Speaker 3 12:16

I mean, what does that even mean? It was after the schism. He lived after it. Well, it's complicated, because the Armenian church broke off, or least other. I mean, it depends on your perspective who broke off, but the idea is that that was a much earlier schism that occurred in the aftermath of the Council of Chalcedon in 451.

Speaker 1 12:38

AD, this is my own fault for asking Too much, too many details. I mean, read my book, really, if you want to know all about it.

Speaker 3 12:44

If you're really interested, just buy it. It's on Amazon, it's everywhere Anyway.

Speaker 1 12:49

And if you don't want to buy it, just go ahead and Venmo. Michael Papazian. And it was in 2015 that Pope Francis declared St Gregory a doctor of the church.

Speaker 3 13:07

So this is a title within the Catholic Church. Doctor of course means teacher. I mean we are all doctors, that's right, we're teachers.

Speaker 1 13:14

Doctors don't think so.

Speaker 2 13:15

Well you know I mean it was our title first. Why don't they come up with their? Own title if they're so smart.

Speaker 3 13:23

Anyway. So currently there are 37 people not all men. There are several women, too who are considered doctors of the church have been recognized as such by the Catholic Church the big names like Augustine and Aquinas. They're doctors. More recently, catherine of Siena, hildegard of Bingen. So several women have been named doctors of the church. But in 2015, pope Francis did something really, from my perspective, extraordinary.

Speaker 1 13:53

He named a non-Catholic a doctor of the church.

Speaker 3 13:57

St Gregory, who lived after the schism occurred, and so I said, okay, this is my chance. I have to write a book about it, because this is my area of expertise. I do work in medieval Armenian theology. So I said, okay, the Pope handed me a gift, I'll write this book, and it got published by a Catholic press. It got some good reviews and all. I was very pleased. So now I'm working on another book about the same.

Speaker 4 14:22

The sequel. The sequel, that's right, I'm working on another book about the same, the sequel, the sequel.

Speaker 3 14:26

That's right, I'm on sabbatical in the fall and this is my plan, but anyway. So for me, I'm really and I did post on Facebook and social media after I heard about the passing of the Pope how not only what that meant for the church in general, but also personally too that my own work was sort of wrapped up in something that he was bold enough to do to make this move, and that was, I think, a really—it's not one of the better-known aspects of Francis' papacy, but I think it is really monumental and may have lasting effects in the relationship between the divided churches.

Speaker 1 15:03

Very nice. Thank you Well, larry, that got us a little—our toe wet in the relationship between the divided churches. Very nice, thank you Well, larry, that got us a little our toe wet in the history. Take us through. What do we need to know about?

Speaker 4 15:09

just the history of the papacy and all the popes that have gone before, well there's been a lot of them and since we're, you know, going to talk about the conclave and they're going to pick a new pope I mean, that isn't age old I think it's interesting that we get this impression that these institutions are well, they are kind of hidebound, but that they've been around forever. And in fact you can see, I was just looking through my Liber Pontificalis this morning on the Book of Popes and you know, when, I looked at Peter again, even in that they don't call him Pope, right, he's the Bishop of Rome, but he's not Pope.

Speaker 4 15:49

So it took a long time even for that idea to catch on. So I find it interesting with what's going on now, I mean how there seems like it's age-old tradition, but in fact these are things that just have accreted over the past couple of centuries. I guess I would say maybe going back to the earlier question too, is that I was pleased when Francis became pope because, as I told you before we started, even though I'm not a Catholic, I taught at a Jesuit university, actually for two years, and Francis very much seemed to reflect the kind of people I worked with when I was there for two years.

Speaker 1 16:23

And Francis was a Jesuit. He was a Jesuit. Yeah, which was unusual for a pope to be a Jesuit. He's the only one. Yeah, oh, so I was right. They're not supposed to be popes.

Speaker 3 16:32

Yeah, being a Jesuit is not really even supposed to go up in the hierarchy. I think that's part of it. Yeah.

Speaker 4 16:38

Yeah, they got their own, but they still are sort of considered the liberal wing of Catholicism and I think Francis very much represented that and, as I say, it kind of reminds me of that experience I had as an outsider at a Jesuit university, very nice.

Speaker 1 16:53

Very nice. I don't know if you got all the salacious stories, but I just remember the little bit of knowledge I have about the whole reason behind the papacy tracing it back to Peter, the whole reason behind the papacy tracing it back to Peter. Does anybody want to pick that up in scripture? The Catholic mindset in terms of why there's even a pope? Pope is just a term for like father right, father right, and it's not exclusively Catholic.

Speaker 3 17:15

The head of the Coptic church in Egypt is also called the Pope of Alexandria, so it's used in other churches as well.

Speaker 4 17:23

I mean, and even now the pope is still the Bishop of Rome. I mean he's literally a local official, as well as this international figure.

Speaker 1 17:32

We had a local Lutheran pastor refer to himself as the Bishop of Rome, since we are in the same couple, yeah, so there could be more than one of them.

Speaker 4 17:40

I mean, in my own classes I really say that the pope that we sort of, or the figure we see as pope, really didn't emerge until Gregory, really until the early 7th century. Even though you have bishops of Rome going back to Peter, gregory was the first monk who became bishop of Rome and he sort of brought some of those qualities into the papacy with him and I think that some of the things he tried to do, you can kind of see the figure, this kind of ecumenical figure that you didn't really see before.

Speaker 4 18:12

But I think that a lot of people forget that this guy still is a local as well as an international figure and I think that very fact really, you know, brought about the College of Cardinals and the conclave in the first place is. You know it brought about the College of Cardinals and the conclave in the first place is you know, how do you pick this guy, and it wasn't clear for a long time how you could pick the pope. So it took a long time, a thousand years of bishops of Rome, before they sort of came up with a formula to how to do it.

Speaker 1 18:40

And I think many of us who are Protestant would just be very confused by this whole process, because when we think about leadership and the succession of leadership, it basically is well, who is faithful to the message, who is faithful to the scripture, and so it's kind of ideological, whereas and it's not that it's not ideological when it comes to the selection of a pope, but there is seen as this continuity which you said doesn't really start until the 7th century, but in the mind of Catholicism it really starts with Peter, where Jesus says upon this rock I'm going to build my church, and so he's seen as the first pope and that the understanding is that there has been someone who has succeeded Peter in that position and that there's been this unbroken string. And obviously, obviously, as a historian, that's more conceptual than reality, but this idea of an unbroken string of people assuming that position, that you can trace this all the way back to Peter, so that there's this kind of continuity that you don't see in Protestant churches.

Speaker 4 19:39

Yeah, well, and as Mike knows too, I mean Peter means rock in Greek so it's. You know Peter is literally. You know you are the rock, and upon the rock I'll build my church. That little bit of scripture there is pretty compelling.

Speaker 2 19:51

Yeah, but yeah it's.

Speaker 4 19:53

I hate to say it and I don't mean to sound irreverent, but it's kind of a myth, like Santa Claus, right, it's a nice myth, but that's really in the end what it is. I mean, if you look at it sort of historically and the role of the bishop of Rome.

Speaker 1 20:06

And at one point there were like four folks claiming to be the pope? Yes, oh yeah. That happened many different times over the centuries, so is this like an open secret among Catholics, christy, or are there some that would say that as academics we're overcomplicating things? And there really has been this historical tracing things and there really has been this historical tracing.

Speaker 2 20:26

I would say most Catholics don't think more about the current Pope and maybe the couple who came before him. We're just not. Yeah, I mean, I do think there's this idea that, yeah, there's been this long string since Peter and you know that following that tradition is important and having somebody who is a leader and does have that ability to you know kind of set church doctrine and precedent. But yeah, digging into the history, I've never done it, yeah.

Speaker 3 20:55

Well, even from the Eastern perspective, we recognize I'm sorry Michael's dug into it.

Speaker 1 21:01

He's shooting to become a doctor of the church.

Speaker 4 21:03

Exactly One of these days I'll have to be dead first. Maybe they'll make an exception. Yeah, right.

Speaker 3 21:10

But from the perspective of the Orthodox, we recognize the Sea of Rome as having a preeminence. It's not always connected with the fact that it's the Sea of Peter, but there is this idea going back in the ancient church, that of all the ancient apostolic sees, those cities that had bishops that could trace somehow, historically or otherwise, back to the apostles, that there was a preeminence to the Sea of Rome and that whenever there was a dispute among the churches or a council that the pope would preside. We have a different understanding of governance, church governance than the Catholics do, and that's been a point of division, but there is still that recognition that there's a certain prestige that attaches to Rome.

Speaker 1 21:53

So there's at least that, and you've used the term see frequently and I don't know what that is, so go ahead and see.

Speaker 3 22:18

Okay, it's not S-E-A but S-E-E, so it's the seat of the bishop. So every bishop has literally a seat right're recognized. Not only the Sea of Rome. I mentioned the Sea of Constantinople too, which has the Patriarch of Constantinople, Bartholomew, right now. The Sea of Alexandria in Egypt, Antioch in Syria and then finally, Jerusalem.

Speaker 1 22:36

So they're usually regionally based.

Speaker 3 22:39

They're regionally based, but all of them have some connection to one of Christ's apostles.

Speaker 4 22:43

Okay, Very cool, although Constantinople is a tricky one.

Speaker 1 22:47

Yes.

Speaker 4 22:47

I mean, how does that work? Because it wasn't Constantinople until Constantine, that's right, I'm genuinely curious, because I know that it's considered one of the big ones, but how do they kind of shoehorn that?

Pope or Nope Game Show

Speaker 3 23:00

They claim it, I think historically, I think is probably not backed up by much, but that there is some connection with Andrew, who is the brother of Peter, and so it's considered the Sea of St Andrew, but I think a lot of people nowadays recognize that it was just because it was an important city. Constantinople was the capital of the Eastern Roman Empire and so therefore, because of that importance, that's the reason why it became an apostolic seat. Okay, very cool.

Speaker 1 23:29

Let's do a game show. All right, you ready? Yes, sure, we are going to play Pope or Nope.

Speaker 3 23:43

Okay, how does this work?

Speaker 1 23:45

Pope or nope. So I'm going to give you a fact about the Pope or the Vatican and you are going to tell me whether it's true Pope or whether it's not nope.

Speaker 4 23:55

Nope, all right, all right.

Speaker 1 23:57

You got it All right, pope or nope? The white smoke signifying the selection of a new pope used to be red Nope.

Speaker 4 24:05

Which means it's probably pope.

Speaker 2 24:07

I'm going to go with pope because I know it used to be a different color, but I don't know what color it was.

Speaker 1 24:12

I'm going to go with nope. It is nope.

Speaker 2 24:19

So our token Catholic was the one who got it wrong, I think we're just going to stop there.

Speaker 3 24:25

This just means you know your next confession is going to conclude this.

Speaker 1 24:29

All right, here we go. All cardinals must fast 48 hours before entering the conclave. Pope or nope? I'm going to say nope.

Speaker 2 24:38

I'm going to go with nope.

Speaker 3 24:39

You know, I'm just going to go out there with Pope.

Speaker 1 24:41

Ah, so Christy's now tied with you, so Larry's up in front 2-0. So here we go. Next question the Pope has his own official astronomer.

Speaker 2 24:53

I'm going to say Pope, but I don't know.

Speaker 4 24:55

I'll say nope, I'll say Pope.

Speaker 1 24:57

And now it's all tied up everybody, so at least the majority is getting it right each time. So I found this fascinating. The Pope has his own official astronomer, there's an observatory, and it's just so ironic that there has been astronomical viewing and evidence even before Galileo. It appears I might have that part wrong, but that for the church being so renowned for in a bad way, for how Galileo was treated, for them to have their own official observatory now.

Speaker 3 25:32

And there's a real strong— yeah, they're really good in astronomy. I think the astronomer—is the astronomer, a Jesuit, currently the official, I don't Okay.

Speaker 1 25:41

Let's just say nope.

Speaker 4 25:41

They should be.

Speaker 3 25:43

You would expect that yeah.

Speaker 1 25:44

Yeah, very good, all right, so here we go. Next question Pope Francis studied chemistry and worked in a chemical lab. Pope or nope Pope?

Speaker 2 25:56

Okay, I'm going to go say Pope too then.

Speaker 1 26:00

That head shaking early on. That actually is Pope, all right.

Speaker 3 26:05

I had read he had a master's degree and that part is not quite true. Not quite true, okay.

Speaker 1 26:10

It's more. I don't know if it was like a. It wasn't an actual university degree, but it was maybe a two-year associate's type of degree. So he was a chemistry technician and then he worked for a chemical company for a while before he entered seminary. That's really cool. So he has a science. So that was Pope, pope or nope. The Pope is required to change his name when elected. I'll say nope. Science is a good part of the podcast. I know that they are given the option to change their name.

Speaker 2 26:36

I'll say nope. Silence is a good part of the podcast I listen. I'm sorry. Yeah, so I know that they are given the option to change their name, but I don't know. If it's a requirement, I'm going to say nope as well.

Speaker 3 26:46

Yeah, I'll say nope too, the answer.

Speaker 1 26:48

So all of you ended up saying nope, and so all of you were correct.

Speaker 3 26:52

I just figured. If you like your name, why not keep it? That's right.

Speaker 1 26:54

Well.

Speaker 3 26:55

I guess the tradition.

Speaker 1 26:57

And I forgot to write his name down. But I want to say it was around the 6th century is when this tradition started, and it was because the person elected pope had a pagan name, yeah. And so I thought that yeah, see, in that case you have to change. And so that became the tradition, and so then you go. All right, last one. We'll go ahead and make this last one. Y'all have come through strong here at the end.

Speaker 1 27:25

The Pope must speak fluent Latin in order to be eligible to serve as the Pope. Nope, nope, oh, coming up. We're not even going to give you all a chance to answer.

Speaker 3 27:29

I mean who speaks fluent.

Speaker 1 27:30

Latin. All right, y'all came on strong and did a good job. So thank you for playing Hope or Nope, all right. So the conclave I remember being fascinated and I think I will be fascinated. This is the conclave is supposed to start on Wednesday, so hopefully this will come out tomorrow, which will be Tuesday. Get this just a little bit and also I have done something bad that's going to maybe turn out good. We did this very nice Conclave episode. Do you all remember Christine?

Speaker 3 28:04

and Michael doing that. I remember going and seeing the movie together.

Speaker 1 28:08

Yes, and then I never published the episode. Well, you're waiting for this moment? Well then I didn't publish it. When the movie came out, and then it got nominated for an Academy Award, I said, oh, this is the perfect time to do it. And I didn't get it out. And so I've got this one last chance, this one last chance to put it out when it would be appropriate. And this is going to be a dual week where we'll put out both of these episodes. And I think that, larry, did you watch Conclave?

Speaker 4 28:35

I did. Yeah, I thought it was really good and this was before Francis died. I thought I was really quite impressed with it, yeah.

Speaker 1 28:41

And in all seriousness to our audience, very much recommend you watching because you do get a sense of the pomp and the circumstance and the richness and the tradition and you know there's a nice little mystery in there as well. But you do get a sense of what the Conclave is like and you know there's a nice little mystery in there as well. But you do get a sense of what the conclave is like. And one of the ways I've described the movie is it is the best slow movie you'll ever watch it. Just it was kind of intentionally slow in some ways but in a very way that kept me attentive the entire movie for sure.

Speaker 4 29:10

Yeah, I thought they really had to act. Yeah, I mean there wasn't any action per se? Yes, but I thought that they did a really great job of sort of being actors.

Speaker 2 29:21

Yeah, I agree, I did read somewhere that over the last week, yeah, the streaming of that movie has really increased.

Speaker 1 29:28

It has gone to the very front of my little streaming recommendations. There's no doubt about that. And while I'm thinking of it, another recommendation and I'm pretty sure this is also on Netflix is called the Two Popes, and that is a documentary from 2019. And we don't have time to go into this in detail, but if any of you wanted to speak to this, the pope prior to Francis Benedict and was it Benedict with a number, 16th? Yeah, I guess that's a number, a big number. Benedict XVI did something that I don't think had been done in like 700 years, and that's that he retired. He resigned the papacy rather than serving until his death, and so for a while something very unusual two popes. Maybe Larry's going to poo that and say, no, there's always two popes around.

Speaker 4 30:12

I thought it was weird.

Speaker 1 30:14

Yeah, and this is a documentary talking about both of them together. I haven't watched it recently, but when I did watch it, I liked it very much, and so I encourage you to watch that. So, either based on the movie or just what you know of conclaves, what are you looking forward to? What do you think that our audience should be aware of? Most of us know about the white smoke, right? Yeah, I've been enjoying the white smoke memes that are coming out. I posted one on Facebook about the smoke. You see when a pope is selected and then underneath it there's a little barbecue going on. The pope. You see when our pastor is selected.

The Conclave Process Explained

Speaker 2 30:49

I thought that was clever For a Baptist too. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 30:53

And then, yeah, it was a Baptist meme. And then, yeah, it was a Baptist meme. And then one I saw this morning was a little news item saying two teens vaping outside the. Vatican select the new pope accidentally, and I thought that was clever. So the white smoke, I think that's a cool tradition, but what else? Anything else about that actual conclave?

Speaker 4 31:13

It'll be hard to know because it's secret. Yeah, I mean, I hope it doesn't take long. I think the longer it takes then the more uncertain it becomes.

Speaker 1 31:22

And it's my understanding that the recent conclaves have usually taken just two or three days. Yeah, In recent history, like going all the way back to the 1900s usually just a couple of days, but supposedly maybe you've got some insight on this, that there have been conclaves that have lasted years.

Speaker 3 31:39

Yeah, you don't want that.

Speaker 4 31:40

You want it to be short, and sweet, and as unanimous as possible.

Speaker 2 31:45

So when I was preparing for this today, I was looking at how many times a day they vote, and so first day is kind of shorter than normal days, because I guess they do a mass first before they go in and start. So sometimes they'll only do one vote the first day, maybe more, but usually it's four votes a day, two in the morning, two at night, and both Francis and Benedict. I think they had it done in two days. So it'll be interesting to see if this goes longer or not.

Speaker 1 32:15

So are y'all looking at that? I actually looked up Pope election odds. People are betting on it, yeah, yeah, so are y'all looking at that?

Speaker 3 32:19

I actually looked up Pope election odds.

Speaker 1 32:20

People are betting on it, yeah yeah, there are different places that you can place wages. I knew the next Pope is going to be. I wonder if that's a sin.

Speaker 3 32:28

Not if you're not Catholic.

Speaker 2 32:32

I mean, I do think there's some thoughts that, because so many of the electors were currently appointed by Francis, that there's a good chance you end up with somebody maybe similar to him. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 32:48

I mean one reason why I think there's good reason to think that will happen. But on the other hand, francis kind of came out of nowhere because the two previous popes who would appoint so, john Paul II and Benedict, were pretty on the conservative side. And yet we got Francis, who was a little bit more or less conservative, and so you never know. I think.

Speaker 1 33:10

I mean I was wondering if there would be maybe not a conservative backlash, but we need to step back a bit and maybe have it. But as far as I know and definitely don't take my word for any of this but the three people who are often mentioned as frontrunners don't really have that real strong conservative basis to it. One seems to be a Vatican diplomat that was very instrumental for Pope Francis and so he would be seen as a very much a sign of continuity with Francis. One, the bishop from Africa, is seen as there's plenty of bishops in Africa, but the one that's seen as a front runner for the papacy is very much social justice and seen as a very progressive figure. And the other person whose name is mentioned often is from the Philippines and very pastoral, but also seen as a reformer. So I was kind of surprised that there are some conservative names out there but they aren't being mentioned prominent. But that could just be the media bias out there too, right, yeah.

Speaker 2 34:06

I was going to say so I did hear of an African bishop who, or a cardinal who, is more conservative and has spoken out against, or at least the clip that I listened to was him talking about how people born male should use male bathrooms and that shouldn't be controversial and things like this. So I do think there's, you know, definitely especially many of the churches in Africa, catholic churches in Africa and Asia have a more conservative bent. So if you chose somebody from one of those areas, it could be very likely that you get a much more conservative viewpoint.

Speaker 1 34:44

That would make sense. Do you think this makes any difference for the world at large? I mean, especially in this day and age when we are increasingly more secular? Are people even aware? I think that the people outside the Catholic Church really did. They were aware of Pope Francis, especially in the early years of his papacy, and I think that there for many people appreciate that breath of fresh air that you were talking about, christy.

Speaker 2 35:11

Yeah, I would say it was a mixed bag, so some people were appreciative of it, it and some people really were not appreciative of it. And you hear that from you know, even our own Congresswoman has said some negative things about Pope Francis and kind of his more liberal or progressive bent, I think socially. And yeah, it's hard to know how it'll be accepted.

Speaker 1 35:34

So did you care one way or another, or did your fellow Catholics care one way or another, that President Trump posted a picture of himself in the papal regalia?

Speaker 2 35:45

So I did hear some Catholics complain, but I also heard lots of other people complain. It is kind of bad taste, I think.

Speaker 3 35:52

I mean, the first thing I thought was what is he going to do with Melania?

Speaker 4 35:58

She'd probably want to wear a hat like that too.

Speaker 3 36:00

I mean, in the eyes of the church he probably still has two wives right, because he probably didn't have his second marriage annulled. So they're all I mean. But that's the way I think, yeah.

Speaker 2 36:11

Yeah, and I mean you didn't go for the optics at all, just the procedural.

Speaker 3 36:17

I mean, it's easy to become a Catholic, but what do you do with your spouses?

Speaker 2 36:22

So I don't think there's a rule that you have to be unmarried to be Pope.

Speaker 3 36:29

Well, he's a bishop, though, and the Bishop of Rome and the Catholic and the Orthodox churches. Bishops since I don't know when, 8th century, maybe even earlier have to be celibate men.

Speaker 1 36:38

Is that true?

Speaker 3 36:41

So even if, they were married before they became. Well, if their wife dies, yes, they can become a celibate priest, but you know if you've got if and I know historically in the early church married men did I mean Peter was married but then the tradition developed that if you're a married bishop your wife has to enter a, become a nun, enter a convent, and If you're a married bishop your wife has to become a nun, enter a convent, and then celibacy has been mandatory for bishops since, and the Eastern Church recognizes that discipline too, but I think that there are some, or there were some, catholic priests who had been Episcopalian ministers married.

Speaker 4 37:12

Yeah, I think it's probably not a safe bet that a guy who's married is going to get elected pope.

Speaker 1 37:16

Yes, it's probably not a safe bet that a guy who's married is going to get elected pope.

Speaker 3 37:20

Yes, were you trying to say that, michael, that there's only a certain level that you can get to at being a priest, a married priest. So in the Eastern Church we have married priests, but they can't become bishops.

Speaker 4 37:28

Okay, right.

Speaker 3 37:28

Bishops are always required to be celibate, to take a vow of celibacy. Yeah, I mean, I know, in the Anglican Episcopalian tradition of course Lutherans have bishops who are married. But among Catholics and Orthodox I mean Catholic in Latin right of the Catholic Church, you know all priests all have to be celibate, with the exception of those who come over from the Anglicans or whatever. And in the Eastern Catholic churches also there are married priests but they cannot become bishops.

Speaker 2 37:59

And I have never. Even though I know that married Anglicans who become priests can don't have to like get divorced or anything, I've never met a married priest in my life.

Speaker 4 38:09

Yeah, I think it's pretty rare. It's very rare Like a unicorn.

Speaker 2 38:18

Not quite, but close, yeah, they exist, I've just never seen one.

Speaker 1 38:21

That's right. That's right. Okay, it's like a giant squid. Yeah, that's better. What else? What else do we need to know? Anything else?

Speaker 2 38:31

Oh, I was just going to say I do think I mean it's really interesting how I think the tone of the church can change, given who is the priest. I remember, you know, pope John Paul II was very beloved right. He was the pope when I was growing up and you know very much kind of against communism and the belief that you know you have to allow people to be free to worship and things like this, and it really does kind of set a tone for more than just, I think, catholics. I think Francis did the same in many ways. So I will be interested to see kind of how it plays out.

Speaker 4 39:06

I mean, no matter who becomes Pope, they'll set a tone. They sort of are the I don't know, you know the thermometer of Christianity, whether we like it or not, and so I'm hopeful that they will pick someone who also is a little more progressive. I would hate to see things slide back, I mean, with Francis. It's funny sometimes he was criticized because he didn't go far enough, but I thought that he did strike the right tone. I always thought John Paul II I mean, he's definitely a great guy, but he was pretty conservative in the end and I'm not sure that really is going to help the cause of Catholicism or Christianity in general.

Speaker 1 39:43

I mean, that's my own personal opinion. I'd say my most progressive Facebook friends who took the time to comment very often said something along those lines. He didn't go as far as I want. I'm sure we definitely disagree on some things, but and then there was an acknowledgement of the very gracious approach that he had.

Speaker 4 40:02

I think that he went just far enough. I mean I actually really liked him, because you can't expect somebody to scrap everything. I mean that just causes as many problems as it solves. It maybe doesn't solve any and it just creates more. So I liked Francis because he didn't go too far.

Speaker 3 40:20

Yeah, and I mean I would hate being Pope because you were saying what 1.4 billion Catholics all over the world, in hundreds of thousands of different cultures, keeping that together must be a really I mean stressful, difficult thing. And so you make one major change, or even a relatively minor one, and you're going to lose people. I mean they lost people with the Latin moving from the Latin to the vernacular, you know, and that continues to be an issue. And that continues to be an issue. So if you have a pope who's making all sorts of really radical moves, that's going to destroy the unity of the church. So that always has to be on the mind of the person who's pope.

Speaker 2 41:12

Especially given that the places where Catholicism is expanding the most are in those areas that are more conservative socially, like Africa and Asia, and yeah, whereas the places that are losing Catholics are in, like Europe and North America.

Speaker 1 41:18

You've given me such a good window to make this about Methodism for a second. I was going to say it's like you know.

Speaker 2 41:24

With Methodism growing in Africa.

Speaker 1 41:25

That's just exactly, and we haven't stayed together. Our unity has been lost because of this absolutely.

Speaker 4 41:36

But that's why I mean, as Mike was saying, they need a Pope who's not going to make radical moves one way or the other in order to hold it together. So yeah, Very good.

Speaker 1 41:42

Well, thank you all very much, christy, we should give you the last word.

Speaker 2 41:47

Oh darn. I mean, I'm just anxious to see what happens.

Speaker 1 41:50

Anxious in a good way, In a good way right.

Speaker 2 41:52

So, yeah, I will be Catholic. No matter who they choose, I will stay Catholic no matter who they choose as Pope Other than Trump.

Speaker 3 41:59

I was kidding. You drew the line there.

Speaker 4 42:02

Okay, I guess that might be a little difficult. Yeah, Will Mel Gibson, though.

Selecting a New Pope and Its Implications

Speaker 2 42:08

Yeah, but yeah, I think it will be. I think it hopefully bodes well for the church if they are able to choose someone fairly quickly and someone that I think that one of the things that fascinates me about the conclave is that in my intro classes I talk about Max Weber, ooh.

Speaker 3 42:39

Citation I get what's said Max.

Speaker 1 42:40

Weber. Just how do we bestow authority on people, right? How do we give people power? And the papacy is such an interesting combination of all three of his types of authority right that there's definitely tradition built into it, but there's also an election and then the guidance of the Holy Spirit and clearly some level of charisma of the candidates that all three of those types of ways of legitimizing somebody's power and authority are built into the conclave, which I find very interesting. That really is a democratic process in some ways. Yeah, the conclave, which I find very interesting. That really is a democratic process in some ways. Yeah, all right.

Speaker 1 43:19

Well, thank you all very much, and I want to thank all of you for listening to Church Potluck and, if you have a moment, I think we're going to probably say a few things here and there before we take off. I want to thank our audience for sitting around the table with us today. I hope we provided you something to chew on and some food for thought and, like I said, we'll have a few thoughts after here and, if you think about this, we're going to be doing some more Church Potluck episodes coming up here, and so I appreciate your support and, if you think of it. Please consider subscribing and rating us, because we're going to start getting more involved in social media here. So until we gather around the table next time. This has been Church Potluck and thank you for listening.

Speaker 2 43:57

All right, I'm going to go and take my headphones off. I think that it's been plenty.

Speaker 4 44:02

So Larry Dale sent this morning.

Speaker 2 44:03

I assume a chat GPT if of me wearing a Pope hat.

Speaker 1 44:09

Even though.

Speaker 2 44:09

I definitely. I do not meet the requirements for a Pope hat.

Speaker 1 44:13

It was debating whether we should go a few more minutes and just talk about who's eligible, because you don't have to be a cardinal right, but you do have to be a man.

Speaker 2 44:20

You do have to be a man. Yeah, and baptized.

Speaker 3 44:24

Well you have to be well, yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah, yeah. So you, I mean, I don't know, have there been any lay people who have been then ordained and became pope?

Speaker 4 44:35

Early on, early on, but that's unlikely to happen. Yeah, no, there'd be no reason for it to happen now. But yeah, it happened quite a bit in those first couple hundred years actually.

Speaker 2 44:43

I think, even though it's not like formal requirements, you're also expected to be reasonable, right, so that you know, because it is a huge organization to run, and so this idea that you are.

Speaker 1 44:55

Well, almost every pope I remember when they talk about the credential is just amazingly educated in multiple ways.

Speaker 4 45:01

But you wouldn't have to be a cardinal or a bishop I mean they could in theory pick a priest. I mean there's absolutely no requirement that they Is there a requirement that you're baptized Catholic?

Speaker 3 45:12

Well, I mean, you don't have to be baptized Catholic, but you would have to be confirmed as a Catholic, and I'm pretty sure that you'd have to be, as they say, at least an ordained priest.

Speaker 4 45:23

In other words, you don't have to be anything above that. But, I don't think that they would these days, would take a layperson and not even President Trump.

Speaker 2 45:30

Right.

Speaker 4 45:30

These days would take a layperson and not even President Trump.

Speaker 2 45:34

Right. So I did wonder, like you know, since the vice president is Catholic, whether he was like hey, tone it down, or whether he just rolls off his back because you know he's joking, or yeah, or if he's a cafeteria Catholic. I don't think so.

Speaker 1 45:52

I don't think so. In fact, I could be way wrong about this, but I think he converted to Catholicism. Yeah, and was it? The Atlantic, or some news outlet had a really interesting piece that I've tagged but haven't read yet, about how very often it's the converted Catholics who are far more doctrine-based and very, you know, hardcore, but that's just it.

Speaker 4 46:12

If, for some reason, they were to pick somebody on the more progressive end I mean then the ones that are more conservative decide they're just not going to go along with it. There's always an element of cafeteria, I think.

Speaker 1 46:23

Yeah, no matter who's chosen? Yeah, something I like going back to your ineligibility, christy. Something I like telling my students when we talk about religion is that the two most major Christian bodies in the United States, the Catholic Church and Southern Baptist, don't agree on much, but they come together in unity and know women in the highest leadership positions. This is true and just growing up in that kind of climate, did you ever question that? Or was it just okay? That's just the way it is.

Speaker 2 46:54

No, I think I always saw nuns and I did have a couple of nuns as teachers growing up. One of them was a principal of our high school.

Speaker 4 47:02

I always thought that was-. Did you go to a Catholic school? Yeah, I went to Catholic.

Speaker 2 47:04

Yeah, I always thought that was kind of like for women in religious orders that was kind of the path, so that it wasn't the same as being a priest. But there was an alternate path for women and I was okay with that, although there was a little like when I was in elementary school, for like I don't know a month, they were like, oh, we're going to train girls to be altar servers and I'm like, oh, this is great. And so I got trained and everything. And then the bishop was like no, this isn't happening, but now it has.

Speaker 2 47:35

You know, every church I go to now Catholic church I go to there's girls who serve, and so have you ever gone and offered?

Speaker 1 47:41

Said hey.

Speaker 2 47:42

I'm all trained, I'm all trained and ready to go.

Speaker 3 47:44

I know that Francis had established a commission to look into female deacons. Women deacons which is part of the tradition in the early church and is mentioned in scripture too, but that just went nowhere. That's one of the things that many of the critics of Francis who were more on the progressive side said. The fact that kind of was you know, quashed, you know was not, didn't really result in any clear decisions. That's another aspect of where he talked like a progressive, but he really didn't make any major moves.

Speaker 4 48:15

But that's a perfect example of like that sort of Damocles. If he were allowed to allow that, the more conservative churches would just have a fit.

Speaker 2 48:22

Yeah, and just, I mean, this is the one thing I think that's from being such a long-lasting institution you bring it up and then who knows what happens a decade or two decades down the road. And so I do think there is, you know, to just start. It is good.

Speaker 1 48:37

And there's a very practical issue here. Right, because there's a shortage of priests and it's very difficult to have people serving the Eucharist. Right, there are women who actually do serve the Eucharist in certain contexts.

Speaker 3 48:52

Am I saying that correctly? Yeah?

Speaker 2 48:52

Eucharistic ministers who are women. Yeah, that's fine. That hasn't been an issue, as far as I know, for a long time.

Speaker 4 48:59

Though I suppose that they probably could solve a lot of the priest shortage if they just allowed married priests.

Speaker 2 49:05

I wonder if that would happen before women were allowed to serve as priests.

Speaker 4 49:09

I think it probably would.

Speaker 3 49:10

Now there was something in South America, I think, in some of the more remote areas of South America, where they were talking about and I think Francis was supporting having older married men who were Catholics in good standing serving as priests. But that was another initiative that really didn't go anywhere. Because a lot of the conservatives said well, this is just the slippery slope leading to opening up the priesthood to married men, and then, once you do that, then you can open it up to women, and then who knows what's next.

Speaker 2 49:39

I do wonder if it's just like a. We need a better recruitment drive for religious orders. I mean I know one of your students. I was talking to is trying to become a priest. You're doing my part. Oh yeah, thank you, mike, I appreciate it.

Final Thoughts and Eligibility Requirements

Speaker 4 49:52

It just takes forever. Because when I was teaching at the Jesuit University, I had a student and one time we were talking in the hall and I asked him what he wanted to do and he said, well, I want to be a Jesuit. And I thought, OK. But then years later, 20 years later, I was back there and, by God, literally it takes forever to do it. And then you're really at the mercy of the order. Because, again, I worked with two people in the history department who had PhDs, were Jesuits, and they yanked him off the faculty to do something else. In fact, one just recently he got tender there. So, in other words, he did the whole process you're supposed to do. He was well-liked by the department, but all of a sudden they reassigned him. And I'm not sure where this is going, other than the fact that you know you got to go where they tell you.

Speaker 1 50:42

And you know the United Methodist Church is actually a lot like that as well. Now I was going to be ordained. I won't go into my whole history but I ended up stopping at the local pastor level and so I didn't have the same level of commitment or responsibility. But if you're ordained an elder in the United Methodist Church, you go where they send you. It's an appointment process and they try very hard to be amenable to what your family situation is. But yeah, you go where we're called. It's submitting to an authority. It's very unusual in today's world.

Speaker 4 51:13

Maybe they're Catholic-lite.

Speaker 1 51:17

Well, we are Episcopalian-lite.

Speaker 4 51:18

That is.

Speaker 3 51:19

Catholic-lite. I mean, we really are.

Speaker 1 51:20

I mean so we are Anglican-lite.

Speaker 3 51:24

Well, it all goes back to the Catholic Church eventually. It's just how far we've moved we.

Speaker 1 51:30

Methodists try to have it all. We try to reach up to the sacramental folks and we try to reach down to the lower church folks and we try to yeah, this is fine, this is fine. We're kind of. That's why I do church politics.

Speaker 2 51:42

Right, a little bit of everything, a little bit of this and a little bit of that, so great, all right.

Speaker 1 51:47

Well, thank you all very much. And I forgot to tell the audience. If any of you are still listening out there, we are going to do a follow-up episode, hopefully when the Pope is selected, and we've already got a couple of folks who weren't able to be part of this panel who want to be part of the next. Maybe we'll bring a couple of y'all back. Give Larry another mug.

Speaker 3 52:06

Sounds good. How many mugs do you have?

Speaker 4 52:10

It'll be time for a jacket next.

Speaker 1 52:11

Yeah, it'll be time for a jacket next, you know what I actually looked on, timo, to find out how cheaply you could get a little robe when y'all hit five episodes.

Speaker 3 52:23

I was going to get it. I think I should have several of them.

Speaker 4 52:26

It's like stripes on it and stuff.

Speaker 1 52:28

Y'all can't see, but Chrissy's just shaking her head back and forth.

Speaker 2 52:31

Well, I'm just thinking like the terror, she's not going to be able to afford anything from Timo soon.

Speaker 1 52:35

Yeah, I should have gotten one when I could.

Speaker 4 52:38

What's Timo?

Speaker 2 52:40

Oh, it's like a cheap Chinese.

Speaker 1 52:44

It's really cheap. You buy things you know dimes on the dollar, but you get exactly what you pay for. I've never ordered from it but on the dollar, but you get exactly what you pay for.

Speaker 4 52:52

I've never ordered from it. It won't be cheap anymore, I guess.

Speaker 1 52:56

No, I guess not, I guess not, all right.

Speaker 4 52:57

Well, thank you, thank you all very much, thank you.