codependent friendship and translated fiction… a perfect pairing? - my brilliant friend by elena ferrante

ciao, brilliant friends! get ready to talk about translated fiction and dive into the world of Elena Ferrante's "My Brilliant Friend”. join us for a whirlwind discussion where we navigate through poorly pronounced Italian words, questionable cover designs, and the magical art of translated fiction.

from dissecting the brilliance of Ann Goldstein's translation to brief mentions of Italian cultural icons like the Lizzie McGuire movie and Stefano from A Series of Unfortunate Events, we're leaving no stone unturned.

can we relate to Lila and Elena's adventures as much as we relate to Lizzie's Roman holiday? let’s find out!

so grab your espresso and channel your inner Italian stallion as we laugh, cry, and discuss all things "My Brilliant Friend."

tune in and let's get lost in translation together!

synopsis music by William King

special things mentioned in the episode:

• Have Italian Scholars figured out the identity of Elena Ferrante? 
• The Unmasking of Elena Ferrante 
• An Open Letter to Elena Ferrante - Whoever You Are
• Why Australia Has Better Covers for Elena Ferrante's Neapolitan Series

choose our next podcast read by going here and voting in the first week of each month!

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theme music born from the creative genius of Big Boi B.

join talk lit, get hit podcast for deep dives into the hottest BookTok recommendations, trending contemporary fiction, and literary favourites! each episode features book discussions, spoiler-filled chats, and thoughtful literary analysis of novels everyone is talking about - from viral romance and fantasy to modern classics. whether you’re looking for BookTok book reviews, author interviews, or a virtual book club experience, out podcast is your go-to space for readers who love stories and want to explore them in depth.

talk lit, get hit are reading and recording on Giabal, Jagera, Jarowair & Turrbal lands. we acknowledge the cultural diversity of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples and pay respect to Elders past, present and future. always was, always will be.  

Transcript

Laura 0:00

Ciao for the month of April.

Eryn 0:02

I'm so sorry.

Laura 0:05

I knew this would happen. I'm sorry. Go ahead. And the way that I'm definitely pronouncing it, C-H-O-W. Hello and welcome to Talk Lit Get Hit, a podcast where we read questionable books recommended to us by social media and talk shit about them.

Eryn 0:22

We're Bridget, Erin, and Laura, three friends who haven't mentally progressed since high school, where we bonded over a love of music and books, but mainly Twilight.

Bridget 0:30

Brace yourself for a heady cocktail of somewhat highbrow and incredibly lowbrow ramblings about all the books the internet loves and our journey to figure out why.

Laura 0:38

Ciao! For the month of April, we said see to the genre of translated fiction, and the winner of the vote was none other than My Brilliant Friend, written by the Italian author Elena Ferrante and translated by Anne Goldstein. It is a book that has some seriously weighty literary words attached to its reviews. Intoxicating, haunting, hypnotic, and violently personal. Bridget and Aaron. Hello, hello. Hello, hello. I'll understand if you're stunned into silence by my knowledge of the Italian language. That was amazing. Thank you. Yeah.

Bridget 1:14

We were in class was in session.

Laura 1:17

I was taking notes. Oh yeah. Understandable. I get that all the time. Uh but like I'm happy to gloss over it. So um what a month it's been, you guys. It's been the month of Taylor. Two-thirds of talklet get hit turned 30. We still grapple with the full-time burden of being slaves to capitalism. So true. Um, Erin, I think listeners of the show will be pleased to hear that you finally have the credentials to say 30, flirty, and thriving. How does it feel?

Eryn 1:52

By credentials, do you mean because I finally watched suddenly 30? Yeah. Oh, did you? Yes. Big, big news. I know we were talking about your birthday. Well, I had a little of both. I watched it before the birthday for Laura's sake.

Bridget 2:09

Yeah.

Eryn 2:10

It was enjoyable. I thought it was fine. I liked the dance scene. Mark Ruffalo is cute, innit? Isn't he a cutie pie? Oh. Yes. The people in that are also so mean. Why were they all so mean? I know. February was really busy, worked a lot, went to Perth. Sad news, ladies, I got sunburnt. I don't even know who I am anymore. I know.

Laura 2:31

Were you trying to do like a sexy um love hypothesis scene and you didn't apply it soon enough?

Eryn 2:37

No, it was like a heat wave in Perth, so stupid hot. And so I think it just like wore off faster than usual. But I was like so mad at myself. I was like, you fucking idiot. This is your whole brand. I know my whole brand is ruined.

Laura 2:54

Like you shaking your fist at the sun, you've made me a liar.

Eryn 2:58

But I have to be transparent. I I got the sunburn. Sad to announce it, but otherwise, uh, great month, busy month. Saw Blink182 a few times, which was lovely. And saw the Jonas brothers this week. That was also great. What about you, Laura? What did you get up to?

Laura 3:14

Yeah, nothing much. Had my birthday and it was like not much of a fanfare. It was really nice just spending it with um my family. And then apart from that, yeah, truly nothing. Just working, a little bit of like wedding planning. But when I say a little bit, I mean truly a little bit. All I've done is just create more and more Pinterest boards and lament like my lack of money to have the like Sophia Ritchie wedding of my dreams. Um, it's totally fine. I did go to see a show, which was pretty fun, but I have to say I was behind a wall of just colossal Titans with bad BO. And so I went to see a guy called Yusuf Days, and I was really happy that it wasn't really one that I was highly anticipating, like desperate to lay eyes on him because I could not see a thing and my nostrils were inundated. But it was it was an amazing show, so had a good boogie, but was also an assault to the senses at the same time.

Eryn 4:15

That sounds overwhelming. It was like the true 5D experience.

Laura 4:22

And Bridget, you've certainly had a feast for the senses as well this month when it comes to seeing shows. I don't know where my life can go from here.

Bridget 4:30

We were front row for opening night in Melbourne for Taylor, and it was incredible. This won't mean much to either of you, but she sang, You're losing me, like directly in front of me and made eye contact with me with me the whole time. I was trying my best to like be like encouraging while holding my phone filming and like crying. I was like, Yeah, you are the best thing at this party, Taylor. Oh my god. And just like freaking out. And then we went to the show in Sydney as well. So it's it's done now, and my nightly ritual is just re-watching the videos over and over again. And that's about it from me. Back to you at the news desk.

Laura 5:11

Before you officially started reading My Brilliant Friend by Elena Ferrante, I have to ask what were your initial thoughts, expectations, hopes, and dreams?

Bridget 5:20

I had this book on my want-to-read list on Goodreads for a few years, and then I actually took it off quite recently, I think last year. In my head, and I know that you and I have talked about this, Laura, but in my head, I thought it was the book My Brilliant Career by Miles Franklin. And I remember being forced to watch that by some teacher somewhere. And I mean, I don't even know if it was good or bad. I just didn't like being forced to watch it. So I took it off. And also the cover looked terrible. The one with the wedding dress and the three little kids. And I was like, I don't want to read a book about that. That looks boring. So I took it off the list and didn't think about it again until this turn of events.

Eryn 5:57

I had never heard of it like Bridget. I also thought it was my brilliant career, which I know nothing about either. So went in completely blind.

Laura 6:05

Yeah, well, I was quite nervous because it was my choice. And honestly, I was really surprised when it won because I have wanted to read it for a really, really long time as well. To be honest, I thought the blurb made it sound incredibly dull. Definitely like a kind of book that I would want to read, but not something I would read based on blurb alone. So excited but cautious, especially because it was my book and it won the vote. I didn't want to have to be like, ooh.

Eryn 6:32

Sorry, Mamma mia! As always, if you know nothing about the plot of my brilliant friend and would like to keep it that way, we recommend you hit pause on this episode now. Likewise, if you're not a fan of the occasional swear word or mispronunciation of Italian names, then proceed with caution. A non-exhaustive list of content warnings for My Brilliant Friend include emotional abuse and toxic relationships, child abuse, sexual harassment, sexual violence, and strong themes of violence.

Laura 7:06

From one of Italy's most acclaimed authors comes this ravishing and generous-hearted novel about a friendship that lasts a lifetime.

Eryn 7:13

The story of Elena and Leela begins in the 1950s in a poor but vibrant neighborhood on the outskirts of Naples.

Bridget 7:20

Growing up on these tough streets, the two girls learn to rely on each other ahead of anyone or anything else, as their friendship, beautifully and meticulously rendered, becomes a not always perfect shelter from hardship.

Laura 7:32

Ferrante has created a memorable portrait of two women, but My Brilliant Friend is also a story of a nation.

Eryn 7:38

Through the lives of Elena and Leela, Ferrante gives her readers the story of a city and a country undergoing momentous change.

Laura 7:46

Once again, we've done it. We have finished a book. Congratulations to us all.

Bridget 7:52

Tick.

Laura 7:53

I read it twice, actually. I almost read it twice. I didn't quite make it to the end. I read it first and then I listened as an audiobook. Same. And I'm glad that I did because I was saying some names wrong. So it was really good. I think I might try to do that again in future because I found that I was able to pick up on things that my brain just like missed when I was reading the book or didn't quite understand. Like vice versa. I think I noticed things written on the page that I wouldn't have had much impact from if I had just listened. I've derailed us immediately. That was my fault, sorry. If you could please, in your finest Italian, give us a little taster of how you're feeling after completing the book. What would you say, Erin?

Eryn 8:39

I was pretty bored. I'm so sorry. There were certainly elements I liked and bits I wish were expanded upon more. But yeah, I I was pretty bored. Bridget.

Bridget 8:53

I mean, this has nothing to do with the book, but you did ask for my finest Italian. So I mean, the o the only Italian I know is from the sacred texts of the Lizzie Maguire movie. Um, so say Buenos Aires to my new American friend, Lizzie McGuire. And that's all I've got, and that's all I'll do.

Laura 9:14

So I think it captures the atmosphere perfectly.

Bridget 9:17

That was beautiful. I had a lovely time reading this book. I am obsessed with it, and I really want to read the rest of the series. I feel like the second read was even better because I could look back on their friendship and reflect in the same way that I felt like the narrator was doing. I don't know. I just found it really relatable. I found it had a lot of themes that were similar to my life, even though my childhood was very, very different. But I feel like it still translated well to my life. Translated fiction. Get it?

Laura 9:52

Stunning tie in there. Thanks. It was just it just came to me. This is why we need you on the mic. I don't know any Italian, unfortunately. But I was hoping that you would both dance for me and then I would be able to just copy whatever you said. Um, I also really enjoyed this. I have to say, I have tried reading this before multiple times, but only ever gotten through the prologue. And so I was pretty nervous thinking, yeah, maybe it won't hit. But once I got up to the section where she started listing all of the ways that the people in the neighborhood were dying or could die, I was like, oh yeah, I get it. So yeah, I this has got me super intrigued. I'm really excited. I have the other books as well, so I'm really excited to read them. I've seen so many reviews that say this book's the least interesting of all of them, and that book two and book three in particular really deliver, and there's a lot of payoff with like these characters and these plot lines and these like little things that she's set up that are threaded throughout the rest of the series. So I'm glad I liked it because it's the kind of book I was always gonna like. I think it's that kind of intergenerational saga that's very character-focused, very interior.

Eryn 11:10

I went into this expecting their whole life to be in this book. I did not know it was a series, and so when it ended when they were 16, I was like, what the fuck? I was so annoyed.

Laura 11:24

So I was a little bit intimidated to discuss this book because I'm really worried that I don't have sort of the intellect to give respect to translated fiction. I think it's something that's totally new to me. Um, I've often pondered, you know, oh, I wonder how they do that. Or so random. Like, how do they make it so beautiful in like a different language? But I've never really thought too much about it. And I think this is a really interesting sort of case study, if you will. Because in the case of my brilliant friend, we have the author Elena Ferrante, whose identity is not known. Not through a lack of trying, I will say. And then we have the translator Anne Goldstein, who's become almost like a surrogate for the author due to her anonymity. I think as I said earlier, this book is probably one of the most literary books that we've read. It has such intense praise lumped upon it. Just looking at the reviews on Amazon, but The Guardian has said nothing quite like it has ever been published. Stunning, an intense forensic exploration of friendship. The Times wrote to the uninitiated, Elena Ferrante is best described as Balzac Meets the Sopranos and rewrites feminist theory. So it's already got me really intimidated about some of sort of like the topics and themes that could be coming up in this book, but I'm super excited to start discussing them.

Bridget 12:51

It is incredible the amount of awards and just accolades this book has as well. So The Guardian said that it was the 11th best book uh released since 2000, and it's also considered one of the 12 new classics by Vulture magazine. So, I mean, I don't think we've read a book that's had such high praise ever.

Laura 13:11

Not like such praise from high places. It's definitely not the most hyped book we've read. It's interesting because, you know, I think we've steered clear of books in this kind of genre before. It's a really weighty thing to be heading into.

Eryn 13:28

One of the things that interested me most about this book when I started reading it was the historical context. So it's set in the 1950s in Italy, directly after World War II, and Naples, where it's set, was actually heavily impacted by the war. They lost a lot of infrastructure, which was repaired by the Allied forces but was still really unstable. And then the Allies had brought quite a lot of like suppliers back into Naples, but these were often like taken over by various gangs and stuff and put on the black market. And I think that's really interesting because I think that for me gave a lot of context as to why there was this distrust of those families, but also this like heavy reliance and subservience to them because they were obviously crucial to the production line of Naples and getting literally anything done. And I think this is an interesting level of context to Donachille's death. The death of Donachele, from my perspective, enabled the Solaris family to kind of rise to power, right? I kind of liked that it was the complexity of the political climate and like the mafia and the gangs and stuff. Elena didn't really know it to understand it. As the narrator, she kind of displayed it in this really simplistic, childish way, which was fitting for her as the narrator, but also for me as a big sticky beak. I wanted to know more about that kind of stuff rather than the friendship, which is obviously the main point of the story.

Laura 14:58

Same as you, I really enjoyed that we were only seeing it through the lens of the child. And I liked that all of these things influenced and set the scene. The story didn't dwell on those things. And I think I enjoyed how we sort of learn about these things at the same time as the narrators. And I also did a little bit of digging about what happens in the later books, and so they do sort of get a bit more involved in like politics and activism and that kind of stuff that ties in throughout the book and learn about it as they progress and age in the way that you would as an adult going from childhood to adulthood. I like that the narration doesn't look back on things with the information that an adult would have. I like that it was almost purely observational. She wasn't saying, Oh, I now know now that so-and-so was in the mafia. Like it's just purely told in this, I had no idea what was going on kind of tone.

Bridget 15:54

Another thing I liked about this style of narration is that in the book, time and time again, we see that Leela is always 10 steps ahead of Elena. And so Leela is already having those conversations with people. She's already quite politically aware, but the narrator isn't. And I think that as the series progresses, she will catch up. But I think it's true to the character that she didn't really know what was going on at this point.

Eryn 16:20

I agree, Bridget, that I think it makes sense that Elena doesn't understand or isn't as political as Leela is. And I think something I really enjoyed was someone was called a communist and it was kind of like spat, like it was a negative thing, and she kind of ruminates on it and she's like, I don't even really know what this word means, but based on how people are saying it, I think it's bad or I know it's bad, or something like that, which I thought was really interesting and is a pretty like true to childhood experience to hear these terms thrown around that you don't really understand. And similarly, when they said that Donna Kille was like a Nazi fascist and stuff, and it's interesting, at least for me politically, to see like the comparison between like the communist characters, the fascist characters, and then like underlying all of that is this working class group of people in Naples who are just trying to like live. Their city is being run by these communists and fascists and stuff, running the mafia, running the city.

Laura 17:21

Like it's a lot to grapple with. I really enjoyed the way that was kind of again all presented through the eyes of this child where she observes the sort of undercurrents of tension and like violence and like frenzy of the neighborhood that's like directly linked to that kind of environment, but doesn't have any understanding of why that's happening. I really loved that passage at the start of the book where she was talking about how the women were almost more sort of crazy and violent than the men, and she had this idea that there were these little creatures that came in and like infected all the women that came from the swamps and made them crazy. But just kind of, yeah, not having any sort of grip on the context of what was happening around her, but being directly impacted by it was a very interesting reading experience.

Bridget 18:18

Obviously, Australia has a very long, long history that predates colonialism, but the history that we were taught in school really only goes back 250 years, if that Naples is one of the oldest inhabited urban areas in the world. And I cannot imagine growing up in a place like that where everything has been, you know, I think it says in the book, raised and then built again, time and time again, and then the volcano decides to erupt, and then this happens and this happens, and it's just rebuilt.

Laura 18:50

There is that really great quote as well about how children don't know the meaning of yesterday or the day before yesterday, or even of tomorrow. Everything is this now, the street is this, the doorway is this, the stairways are this, this is mama, this is papa, this is the day, this is the night. And I just loved that so much, and I just think it really sort of shone through in the way that the book was written. And also what you were saying as well about um the volcano, I loved how it didn't come up a lot, but I thought Vesuvius was this kind of very ominous threat or like presence in the book as well. Almost maybe like an extra character. It was an this extra thing that was hanging over all of the characters, and I just think it really added to the sort of like just utter tension and like rhyme and stress. I just thought it was so undercurrent throughout, especially the childhood portion of this book.

Eryn 19:51

There was a period of time where she was talking about how she thought someone was like living in Donna Kille's basement. I am so curious because I thought someone was actually gonna be living down there that like stole the dolls and stuff. What happened to the dolls? Anyone got any theories on the dolls?

Bridget 20:07

I think the dolls are just lost to the abyss. I think they just needed to get their iPhones out, use the torch to have a better look.

Laura 20:17

But I loved that as well. That whole like scene when they are like, oh, you've got you took the dolls with your black bag and like he's this boogeyman made of like salami and workshop tools. And I just loved it. I liked the character of Donna Kile as well because he was built to be this like kind of specter. I think he was described as like the ogre, and you know, everyone had been told, don't insult him, don't insult his family. Uh, and then he dies, and kind of what you were talking about before, Erin, how that then sets in motion like the rest of the events of the story, in essence. But I mean, the first part of the book is called Don Achille, and then he just dies, and I was kind of glad because I sort of thought it was gonna be this like pleasing the Don of the Godfather 2.0 kind of story, and I was happy that it wasn't.

Bridget 21:11

The part where Don Achille was confronted by the two little girls, and they said, Give us our dolls back, and he gave them money to go and buy new dolls. I thought that was really an interesting personality trait that a lot of the men in this book had. Uh, like the fathers were very violent, but they were also, as told by the narrator, were very loving to their daughters. And so I like how you can see the whole person, this crazy ogre man who everyone is scared of, but at the same time, he thinks it's quite amusing that these two little girls have the guts to come up and say, Where's my doll? So he gives them money. And same thing with the fathers, like they'll throw them out windows, but the daughters are still like, Yeah, they love me. And it's just a really interesting taste of the culture and society that they. Growing up in.

Laura 22:01

I agree. There was that quote quite early on where Elena is talking about how much she hates her mother and how much she's repulsed by her. And then she's talking about her father, and she says something to the effect of, even though he beats my mother, he never raises his voice, so I still think he's a good man.

Bridget 22:17

It is interesting because I mean there's a lot of discussion around how sexism and the patriarchy frame how we view mothers as compared to fathers and the different standards that we hold for mothers. There's that quote that's like, you know, the daughter laughs at the mother with the father. And I felt like that was quite prevalent in this story. And I guess it was the 1950s, so even though it's built as a feminist novel, you do have to remember that it was a long time ago. And things that we see as progressive now were just not even existent then.

Laura 22:53

But I mean, her mother did seem quite horrible. So her mother did seem quite spiteful, but then there were those moments of kind of unexpected tenderness. Like I really like the sort of volatility of all of the characters. Her mother included, those moments where she said, you know, you should study for the high school exams anyway, or whatever it was, or when she made her the bathing suit so she could go to Isaka.

Bridget 23:16

I think with the level of violence that would be expected of you as a member of that community, it would be really hard to show maternal soft feelings. So I feel like you would have to be tough and hard and strong to survive in that sort of environment. So when she would say things like, You can wear my silver bracelet on Saturday, or when she made the bathing suit, or her moment of kindness when she made the dollar dress, I think that was like those instincts trying to come through, like a daisy trying to push its way out of concrete. Like it's it's grown up in this hard world, but it's trying to be kind. And I feel that's the same with a lot of the women and the men in this story. Like they've been bred to be tough and fighting and violent, but at the same time, they're full of love for each other.

Eryn 24:04

That was my read on The Mum as well. I felt her harshness towards Elena was actually rooted in love. She was trying to prepare Elena for what the world is, not how she hoped it would be for Elena. Especially when she told Elena to study, even though she couldn't go to school. Like she wants better for Elena. She wants to help her get out, but she also doesn't want her to be so far off in the clouds that she can't survive in the environment she's in if she can't get out.

Laura 24:35

Those are really excellent points about the mother. I think that's such a beautiful observation. And I guess in line with that kind of softness and hardness and that kind of almost radical behaviour that didn't exist at that time, I thought it was quite moving as well. When Melina, the lady that um had had the affair and fell down the stairs and cracked her head like a melon, and then kind of like went a bit mad when she was on the street eating the soap that she'd bought, and everybody was sort of like looking at her and laughing at her and ridiculing her, and Leela went across the road and like walked with her, and how she always took the part of that woman I thought was quite like a moving and interesting trait for her character as well. I really liked how the actions of Leela were almost always unknowable. I really like so thoroughly enjoyed observing her through the eyes of Elena, and I like the way that in that respect, Elena's like quite an unreliable narrator. Um, it's really hard to tell, you know, if if her portrayal or perception or whatever of Leela is just completely clouded by her own obsession and sort of infatuation with her, or if she really was perceived the same way by the rest of the neighborhood. I think talking about Leela is a good sort of segue into talking about um the kind of heart of the novel, which is obviously the female friendship between Elena and Leela. I was wondering what thoughts both of you had on that.

Eryn 26:05

It was not a female relationship that felt familiar to me. I could understand and see the like jealousy and competition and stuff that they had there. It's not something I've ever felt I've been in a relationship like that. So I felt it was childish. And obviously they are children, but as an adult, it frustrated me. But I also quite enjoyed the commitment to each other and the level of no matter how complex their relationship got, they would still come back to each other and help each other and assist each other, which is probably the main part of their relationship that did feel familiar.

Laura 26:42

I think something that I related to with Elena was that feeling of just trying to guess Leela's next move and just, you know, like this person that you idolize trying to please them and trying to I think like she acknowledges quite early on the brilliance of Leela and that she will never be her equal, but that she's like happy to be second to her and she just wants to. It's like what they say with the dolls, what you do, I do. And I think that feeling of just trying to catch up and to to be on equal footing was something that I related to. But what I particularly enjoyed was that they weren't pitted against each other about something like boys, they were trying to be intellectual equals for a period of time. They were trying to be on equal footing like at school or in an understanding of the world, like when they were talking about communism or theology, that kind of stuff. It was something that I particularly enjoyed about their relationship and something that was really refreshing to see.

Bridget 27:40

The part of the friendship that I found most relatable is actually something that Laura and I have sort of talked about recently. As a young person, I always felt the need to pretend like I wasn't interested in hanging out because I didn't want to bother people or I didn't want to feel like I was imposing or like if I went to Brisbane, I'd be like, oh, I won't tell Laura because she won't want to see me. And when I was talking to her about it, she's like, I did the same thing. And so it's so weird because it's such like a familiar feeling of like, oh, this person is like my best friend. I love them, but I'm not sure how they feel about me. And I don't want to be annoying to them because they probably have more important things to do, and they're probably like so busy, and I really understood their friendship.

Eryn 28:29

Yeah, I got a similar impression from Lena that I got from the mum that there was an understanding that Elena had an element of freedom to get out of there that Lena didn't have. And so there was almost a resentment in Lena that she could be smarter than Elena and she could study with Elena, but she could only go so far, and she knew Elena would go further, even though she was perhaps not the better of the two, that she would have the opportunity to do more than Lena would.

Laura 29:02

I kind of had that same line of thinking around that scene where they skipped school and they were going through the tunnel, and then Leela becomes quite scared and nervous and starts looking back over her shoulder. And I was wondering if that was like in any way kind of a metaphor for their relationship and their sort of ties to Naples and how they will progress in the world because as they got further into the tunnel, Leela's apprehension grew, but Elena became more excited about like what's on the other side of this and why is she so worried? And then there was that scene when they do get in trouble and Leela has that kind of your parents are still letting you study. And Elena has that whole, I wasn't sure if she was saying it because she was relieved that I hadn't got in trouble and had that opportunity removed, or because she'd orchestrated the whole thing and wanted me to have that opportunity removed. Or maybe it was both. That tied up their relationship really perfectly for me.

Bridget 30:00

That was also a really interesting scene because I feel like that's how their lives in this book went. Leela was always looking for the future, planning about how they were going to be rich, so they're going to write the novel. You know, she was miles ahead of where everyone else was, but I think at the time of the wedding, she was like, What am I actually doing? She'd gone too far and she was worried about what was going to happen.

Laura 30:22

And we kind of have that spoiler in the prologue as well, because I think Reno or whatever her son is called, it's kind of like, Where could she be? Like, where's she gone to? And Elaine is sort of like, Don't be ridiculous. She's never left Naples. And so you already have that understanding. Oh, this is her life. And so she's painting this picture of this really like wild, vivid character. Like, I loved the imagery she used for her as a child. Like, there was some sort of descriptor she had, like, she was skinny, like a sardine and had like a weird smell or something. Salty. Yeah, yeah, I'm obsessed with her. And she just and I loved that first line as well. That or not first line, but one of the first lines talking about her that was like, I first became aware of her because she was very bad. Like when she was called up to the blackboard and she was doing her spelling and the teachers asking her to spell the words, and she's kind of jostling around and like knocking other students and just being really distracted and like unfocused. I just thought it was such a I just feel like I can feel sticky fingers and like just grimy, dirty little kid things. I just found it so like, oh, I loved it. It was gross. They were annoying, like little precocious rats. And yeah, I just think that sort of infatuation and obsession and griminess just hit so perfectly with what I wanted. I find it really tricky to talk about the characters in this book as well because there's simply so many. I have to say, like, I know so many times in the podcast we've been like, oh, if only there was a legend at the front that explained ever who everyone was. And then we got one, and I was still like, what? Even having listened to it and read it, I feel like when stuff's happening on the page, I'm like, oh yeah, okay, I'm pretty sure I know who's who. But then when I go to talk about it and explain it, all of the names and all of the context completely falls out of my head. But I kind of love the way that it was just this swarm of boys or men like coming in and out of their lives and like vying for their attention or antagonizing them or, you know, just dipping in and out of their story in some way. But the men are so secondary to their relationship. One of the only boys that stood out to me was Nino. I actually haven't read any spoilers, but I hope and have a feeling that he might become a more sort of central love interest as the books progress, because Elena has sort of pined after him since the very start of the book as a child. And then they do have this sort of brief romance. I don't know if you'd even call it that, but at the beach, but then the like incredibly horrible event of her being molested by his father occurs, and that kind of sours that relationship entirely because she's terrified of his father, and she doesn't know how to feel about that as well, because she's so young, and I just found that so bittersweet how she can't overcome that horrible thing that's happened to her to fulfill the love that she's had this whole time.

Bridget 33:40

Big Nino fan as well. And I thought it was interesting that even though he is portrayed as this, you know, intellectual, brooding, quiet boy, even he is struck by jealousy that all the other characters are also struck with when he's going to publish her essay. He reads it and he can't believe how good it is, and then for some reason it doesn't get published. And I think it's so funny that even Nino, who's, you know, meant to be the best of the best, is the same as the rest of them. Like they can't escape where they're from.

Laura 34:11

I think there's a really great quote quite early on in the book that really sums up the tone and the actions of all of the characters. You what you were just saying about Nino being no better than the rest of them really reminded me of it. But she says, I feel no nostalgia for our childhood. It was full of violence. Every sort of thing happened at home and outside every day. But I don't recall ever having thought that the life we had there was particularly bad. Life was like that, that's all. We grew up with the duty to make it difficult for others before they could make it difficult for us. It's just perfect. As the story progresses, Leela eventually marries Stefano Kodacci, who's the son of Don Achile. At the start of the book, he's quite a rich and influential man in his own neighborhood because of his ties to perhaps the mafia, perhaps the black market. But there's this really interesting scene between Leela and Elena where as she's getting ready to be married, Leela asks her to help her get dressed. Elena says, I had never seen her naked, I was embarrassed. Today I can say that it was the embarrassment of gazing with pleasure at her body, of being the not impartial witness of her 16-year-old's beauty a few hours before Stefano touched her, penetrated her, disfigured her, perhaps, by making her pregnant. At the time it was just a tumultuous sensation of necessary awkwardness, a state in which you cannot avert the gaze or take away the hand without recognizing your own turmoil, without, by that retreat, declaring it, hence without committing it into conflict with the undisturbed innocence of the one who is the cause of turmoil, without expressing by that rejection the violent emotion that overwhelms you, so that it forces you to stay, to rest your gaze on the childish shoulders, on the breasts and stiffly cold nipples, on the narrow hips and the tense buttocks, on the black sex, on the long legs, on the tender knees, on the curved ankles, on the elegant feet, and to act as if it's nothing, when instead everything is there, present, in the poor dim room, amid the worn furniture, on the uneven, water stained floor, and your heart is agitated and your veins inflamed. I don't think their relationship was necessarily a romantic one, but I kind of loved the sort of sexually charged nature of that. And then I love that immediately after that, Elena just becomes obsessed with the idea that Lena's gonna lose her virginity and she has to do the same, like she has to progress, like she has to be on equal footing. I think it is intoxicating, like it's just this utter obsession that you get drawn into.

Bridget 36:39

I found this part really interesting as well because later on on that page, and it suddenly seemed to me that the only remedy against the pain I was feeling that I would feel was to find a corner secluded enough so that Antonio could do to me at the same time the exact same thing. The relationship is so interesting to me, and I really am just so excited to see where it's gonna go in the next three books.

Laura 37:02

The way that all of the events kind of culminate in the end of this book as well, I found particularly satisfying. And I think even if it wasn't a multi-book series, I would still be satisfied with the ending of this book because it has that real sort of feeling of oh, life never does get any better than this. But not in like a life doesn't get better than this kind of way. In a oh, life doesn't get better than this. I don't know. Maybe my maybe I'm too upbeat because they both sounded pretty positive to me, but it's only a bad thing, you guys. It was the pace. At the end of the novel, 16-year-old Lena is marrying Stefano.

Eryn 37:44

Great job.

Laura 37:45

You know why I remembered? My name is Stefano.

Bridget 37:49

I am an Italian man.

Laura 37:55

But she believes he's the better of the options. So she's had a previous suitor, Marcello. But he's been a real villain throughout this book, Marcello. So she's happy to be rid of him. She believes optimistically that she's marrying a good man. One of her major drives in this novel has been to make the shoes, to make the business, and he's really supported her and like helped her get that off the ground, made her shoe vision, a dream come true, and he is the person who buys her first ever pair of shoes that her and her brother Reno made together. And then at the end of the novel, at her wedding, she has expressly said, I do not want Marcello there. And then in the last few sentences of the novel, he rocks up at her wedding, and I think she even sees her husband chatting quite happily to him. And when she looks down, he's wearing the first pair of shoes that she's ever made. It's obvious that Stefano gave him the shoes.

Eryn 38:50

I loved that bit. That was like easily my favorite bit of the book, especially like factoring in the family drama, the mafia, the whole thing they're meant to be enemies. So why is someone from the Korace family who is like related to Donna Killay, why is he giving these shoes to someone from the opposing family and the Solara family? Like that was so interesting to me. And if I thought the next book would be about that like family against family drama, I would probably be in it. I suspect based off this, it's all gonna be about the friendship. So I will not be reading further, but I was so curious about that bit.

Bridget 39:30

This is the first book in so so long where I've actually been like flawed by an ending. I can just picture it in my head. I can picture him like coming in, swatting around like he owns the place, and he sits down, he leans back and he probably pulls his pant leg up a bit just so she can get the full view of the shoe. Actually, incredible, and I didn't pick it at all. It seemed to me that they were going to be a really good partnership. Obviously not.

Eryn 39:54

It makes me so curious because I felt like Stefano was really good with Leela, but he did have these moments where he was a bit of a businessman, a bit of a like man about town. He would go in and he would kind of throw his weight around in the shoe shop with her family. I really like the idea that once he had, for lack of a better term, sealed the deal and got what he wanted and got Leela. Now his true colours show and he's the businessman again that he has always been, but she's chosen not to see because she still, like Laura said, thought he was like the better of two evils. And I it's just so good. What a great ending.

Bridget 40:34

Yeah, I feel like she chose not to see it because she thought that she was going to be on his side and she was going to be benefiting from those business deals, but she was just blindsided. And I think that would be the first time in her life that she would have been blindsided.

Eryn 40:50

Yeah. Well, he was so smart about it too, because every time he like threw his weight around, it was in her benefit. It was for her family, for her business, for her dreams, and then now it's not. What a rat dog. And it's just incredible that who she thought was like the quote unquote real villain in Marcello. Was he that bad after all, compared to what Stefano has just done?

Bridget 41:13

The men of the town had had enough of her and the way that she bested them. And it was almost like putting her back in her place. Like she's played us, she's done this, she's got her way, she's rejected you, she's rejected him. We'll show her who really is boss. So it's coming back to that inequality of their society and class systems, everything.

Laura 41:35

I mean, there were those parts throughout the book where everybody was getting together and being like, I heard she gave Marcello a blow job, and like that was definitely creeping in there. They were out there talking shit.

Bridget 41:50

Throughout the novel, we're constantly reminded of people's position in society, we're reminded of their class, and this also determines their future. None of the children ever expect that they'll amount to anything other than the same jobs that their parents have. And I think that Elena makes a sort of sort of observation at the end when she's looking around at the people at the wedding and seeing the trivial things that they're worried about, and this person's on dessert, this person hasn't even had their mane yet. Um, that table has better wine, this table has this wine, and she sees that her mother is who she was meant to become. She sort of makes the observation that her mother is angry about her hanging around with her boyfriend because her mother now knows her position in life is not to become her mother. And it is really interesting the distinction between the characters that used dialect and the characters that used Italian. So the dialect that they're talking about is Neapolitan and it's a language spoken in the Neapolitan region of Italy, but it's not an official language and it's not taught in schools. So there's a lot of discussion in like sociolinguistics about dialects and their validity as languages. So if we think about language as a class system, then the dialect is at the bottom. Even though most of these people speak dialect, it isn't seen as the right language. And there's really only two characters that use Italian frequently, and it's Leela and Elena, and obviously the people at the school, but everyone else speaks dialect, and it really just shows their position in society. If we look at it through the lens of education, so in the 1950s, Italy, school was only compulsory until the age of 14, but only two children out of 10 actually made it to middle school. So there are a lot of European countries that require entrance tests, like different streams and different levels of schools. But obviously, as we know across the world, it's more common for boys to finish their education. And it is really prevalent in this she's maybe the only girl or one of the only girls in her class in middle school or high school. Schooling eventually did become required until 16, but it was still common for children to leave behind their studies to go to work. And obviously that's, you know, dependent on their family and what their family needs are. And I there's a movement now within the like linguistics community to officially recognize dialects on an equal footing as languages. Many languages that are spoken in colonized countries, the official language would be English or Spanish or French. But they also have those indigenous languages that aren't recognized but are still very valid. And they're not taught in schools, and they're seen by teachers in schools as being less or inadequate. So if we think also about African-American vernacular English, like it's, you know, discouraged to use that in school, even though it is valid language and a valid dialect. So children that come from indigenous backgrounds, they might speak a dialect of English that's also considered as a second language. So they come to school as a second language learner. And the same with these children, they don't speak standard Italian, they speak Neapolitan. But it is that discussion about whether it is the same, whether it's equal, and whether it should be taught or recognized or like appreciated the same.

Eryn 45:13

I really loved that. And I think you're right on the money with the fact that the like use of dialect almost foreshadows people's future in this story about whether they're getting out or not. But it also reminded me of this part. I think it's Donna Kille that says it when he says how like wonderful and magical it is that a shop starts really small and then the next generation gets to build on it, and then the next one and the next one. And I quite enjoy, after hearing all that, the thought that even though the dialects or use of dialects in this book foreshadow that they're not getting out of Naples, it's also nice to see on the flip side that they do have opportunity and quite a like well-established career ahead of them in a family business or something similar, while it may not be their like ultimate goal, is still a really respectable and admirable future as well.

Bridget 46:09

That's also interesting because you're right, there are these families that have built themselves up, but then you have these other families who really have nothing. So these other families, while it might be minimal, they have generational wealth. But these other families who are, you know, four generations behind the rest of the businesses in the in the city really is just gonna take so long. It's like it's never-ending staircase trying to survive in and thrive in this world.

Eryn 46:37

It's yeah, that on top of post-World War II Naples, like they have everything against them.

Laura 46:42

Yeah. I think that conversation about the dialect is interesting as well because a question I had when I was reading was in relation to the translation, and I have this thankfully answered for me in an interview between the translator Anne Goldstein and Melinda Harvey on Lithub. In this interview, Anne Goldstein mentions that thankfully Ferrante doesn't write in dialect, and so they do talk about those parts of the novel where it says, Oh, she answered in dialect, or she moved into dialect now. And to me, when I was reading, I was wondering if that was just a way of indicating to the reader that the language had changed or if the language was actually changing throughout the novel. So that's interesting to note. Apparently, she does write in Italian. But I think it would be great to talk a little bit more about the translator because as I mentioned earlier, it's just such a strange situation that they're in where Anne Goldstein's kind of like this surrogate or like avatar or stand-in, whatever you would have for Eleanor Ferrante because of how her identity is unknown. I realized just before when I googled the translator that her image is also what comes up when you search for like who is Elena Ferrante? Uh, so they really are one and the same. And I just think that's such an interesting dynamic. Anne Goldstein herself seems like such a fascinating woman. She's worked for Esquire, the New Yorker. She edited John Updike's literary reviews for the New Yorker. And it was only in her 30s during her time at The New Yorker where she began taking Italian lessons. So to me, that's quite late in life to be coming to learning a language, and then to become, I assume, like an expert in your field to be translating these incredibly famous and popular works. I think that's just so impressive. It's so astounding.

Bridget 48:40

I was flabbergasted by another thing that I read where she was translating the complete works of an author and it took 17 years to complete. Oh my god. She did have a team of nine translators, but that is just incredible to me. Like, if I haven't got something done in like a month, I'm like, okay, moving on, whatever. 17 years? That's amazing. And I've just never really thought of translation as an art form because I've just never like sat down and thought about it. But I just that is such a skill to have and translate such such a story into such beautiful text.

Eryn 49:16

And imagine the like creative burden as well to like translate it and try and translate it as accurately as you can and like honor the original intention of the text and stuff.

Laura 49:27

Like Yeah, there's an interesting quote in this same interview where she says that she doesn't feel like she can speak for the books because she didn't write them. And she can talk about the language she's used and she can talk about her relationship to that, but she feels that she can't talk about the meaning of the books because to her at least her relationship with that meaning or her relationship to those books is quote unquote small scale. And so she thinks she's tied to them on a sentence level, but she's she can't see them as a whole, which I think is also really strange and interesting to note. She also says here as well, she's never read them all together. Tracking the words on such a micro scale, I would not enjoy the act of being like nice, let's go read the whole book again. Like I'd be done.

Bridget 50:18

I think a really interesting quote to end this discussion about translation and her relationship with the characters in the story and also the mystery of the identity of the author is that Ferrante said that books, once they've written, have no need of their authors. And I guess as an extension of that, also their translators poetic.

Laura 50:38

Something we've all noted at different times is how truly ugly the covers of these books are. I personally have the cover that's the black and white photo of the woman gazing off into the distance. Um, it's got some pretty clunky text over the top. Bridget, yours is definitely the best of the bunch, I think. But there are some also really kind of gaudy ones, like with children in frilly dresses. Um, I think one of the first editions as well had these two little girls like sitting down, gazing off into the distance, and they were like butterflies and like balloons and stuff on the cover. They're truly, truly ugly. I searched for so long to find a nice version. But something that was interesting was that apparently this was an intentional choice by the publisher. Um, so I have a quote from an article in The Guardian. Discussing the original design of book one, My Brilliant Friend, the Italian publisher Sandra Azzola of Europa Editions explained. The novel would conclude with a scene of a very vulgar Neapolitan wedding, an extremely important moment. That's why I intentionally searched for a photo that was kitsch. Vulgarity is an important aspect of the books, of all that Elena, the narrator, wants to distance herself from. She then goes on to say that she had the feeling that many people didn't understand the game they were playing, dressing an extremely refined story with a touch of vulgarity. Personally, I love that. I love the energy of like, oh my god, you guys didn't get it.

Bridget 52:06

Oh, it was a joke. Actually, incredible. Yeah.

Laura 52:10

Um, everything about this I love. Like the oh, you didn't get the covers, oh my god. Or like, oh, who's Elena? We'll never tell. XO, XO, gossipy ropa. Like um, I just think it's so mysterious. I sort of love the yeah, the atmosphere that surrounds this novel almost as much as the novel itself. But I do think, like, thank God I heard about this book via the internet because no way in hell would have I have picked it up on cover alone.

Eryn 52:42

And with that, we're at the end of the episode again. So it's time to do what we always do. Let's do favorite character, Laura.

Laura 52:50

I think my favorite character is probably Elena. I really liked her kind of observations of the city. Um, I loved her utter infatuation with Lena. I liked seeing the world through her eyes. So yeah, really rare to have a female protagonist as my fave, but I'm so happy to I'm so happy. You guys healed.

Bridget 53:14

You're no longer a misogynist. And you know what? Same with me. My favorite character is Leela. I I think she is like an aspirational character, like her drive and her persistence in the face of you know, just like utter poverty and abuse and violence is so interesting. And I love her.

Eryn 53:40

I think my favorite is Leela. I think I enjoyed her determination, and then her like self-sacrifices were really sad, and so I liked her. So this is a real win for us, ladies. All our favorite characters are female characters. And yesterday was International Women's Day, so shout out women everywhere.

Bridget 54:01

Turns out we just have to stop reading like terrible romance books and we find some good women.

Laura 54:06

Oh my god. Also, you guys, good news not to flex my SBS on demand account again. But this is also a mini-series on SBS on demand. And no, this is not sponsored, but I am very excited that I get to worm this into the podcast once again.

Eryn 54:24

Um, and on that note, who was our least favourite character, Bridget?

Bridget 54:29

I mean, probably the poet. Because he was just a bad guy all around. Um, I don't know, I didn't really think um that deeply about any of the other characters other than the main two. So probably him. Bad man, stop it. I feel like if more people just said stop it to people like him, maybe, maybe they would. Has anyone ever said stop it? Maybe not. Have you ever tried that?

Laura 55:00

It's uh dangerously close to victim blaming mentality. Oh no, no, no.

Bridget 55:06

I'm talking to the police. If they're even involved, they're never they're never there. Yeah, the police are not even mentioned one time in this, are they? Yeah. They are they're in the Liza McGuire movie, so I mean something's that's Rome though, so what about you, Laura, who was your least favourite character?

Laura 55:29

I think for a period of time I would have said Reno was my least favourite, just because he was so chaotic and so angry and always like effing stuff up and like trying to shoot everyone and fight everyone. But I think there was a softness to him that was quite admirable, and maybe I would actually say Lena's father because I think he first of all literally threw her out a window, which was pretty staggering. Stop it. Has anyone ever said that to him? Stop it. You make a great point. Yeah, he was just like quite an unpleasant man. He never really seemed to particularly support her aspirations. Um, he seemed crueler than some of the other fathers in the book. So I think he was hugely responsible for the oppression of her and her brother. Yeah.

Eryn 56:20

I think it's an interesting comparison to compare her father against Elena's mother when both parents could see that their child was better than them and was destined for greatness, and one chose to support them as much as they could, and the other chose to throw them out of fucking window. Like but it was pretty cool when the mum did tell Reno and the dad to stop it. Like that did happen in the book, and they all were like, maybe we will welcome. Um, so I agree. I think the dad is my least favorite character as well. He was just such a mean man, is My Brilliant Friend by Elena Ferrante. Little shit Laura. It's lit. Little shit Bridget. Lit. I think I will go with lit. It wasn't hugely for me, but there was a lot of good parts in it that I enjoyed.

Laura 57:14

Two-point scale got us once again FOILed once again.

Bridget 57:19

And that, our brilliant friends, is the end of the episode. Next month we are reading Pride and Prejudice by Jane Austen. Have your say on what we read next by keeping an eye on the link in our show notes and on our socials. Make sure you subscribe to the show, and if you want to be on the same page as us, follow us at talklit.gethit on Instagram and TikTok.

Eryn 57:39

I feel like I just had a stroke.

Bridget 57:41

Linu Elena, Lena, Lena, Leela, Eliya.

Laura 57:45

And then also Charulo and Greco. Rafaela.