we read this dark romance so you don't have to (please don't) - credence by penelope douglas

in amongst a sea of mafia romance, shrek smut and interplanetary interlopers, one book has revealed itself to us time and time again. perhaps more requested than any other book we’ve ever read on the podcast, this month, for the theme of “pearl-clutching smut” we are reading credence by penelope douglas. vulnerable and unloved, seventeen year old tiernan finds herself trapped on a snowy mountain with only her (step) uncle and cousins for company. throughout the novel, our shimmering young ingenue eats lollies from the bin, visits multiple ponds, fixes a fridge and gets a pink camo bow and arrow but not without the three lecherous (or lovely???) men in her life having their way with her first. tune in to find out how we rate this book and hear our long, long rants about where we think credence went so very wrong or so very right. 

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join talk lit, get hit podcast for deep dives into the hottest BookTok recommendations, trending contemporary fiction, and literary favourites! each episode features book discussions, spoiler-filled chats, and thoughtful literary analysis of novels everyone is talking about - from viral romance and fantasy to modern classics. whether you’re looking for BookTok book reviews, author interviews, or a virtual book club experience, out podcast is your go-to space for readers who love stories and want to explore them in depth.

talk lit, get hit are reading and recording on Giabal, Jagera, Jarowair & Turrbal lands. we acknowledge the cultural diversity of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples and pay respect to Elders past, present and future. always was, always will be.  

Transcript

Laura 0:00

If I won't crazy, we're vegetables. Hello and welcome to Talk Lit Get Hit, a podcast where we read viral books the internet won't shut up about and rate them lit or shit.

Bridget 0:14

We're your hosts Bridget and Laura, lovers of sad girl fiction and tragic endings, fearers of smart urban fantasy and the Who Did This To You trope. Join us as we pick apart all the books the internet loves and embark on a journey to figure out why.

Laura 0:29

Knock knock. Who's there? Your uncle. Your uncle Who? Exactly. And thus begins the plot of our August podcast selection, Credence by Penelope Douglas. This month we asked you to help us choose the most toe-curlingly disgusting or delightful, depending on how you see it, work of erotic literature to read for the theme Pearl Clutching Smut. This book won by a country mile, so buckle up and get your ball gags ready as we ask the question Is Credence by Penelope Douglas lit or shit? Bridget, hello, hello. Hello, hello, how are you? I'm so well. How are you?

Bridget 1:00

I'm well. I'm so excited to be finally talking about this book.

Laura 1:04

It's been a long, long time coming.

Bridget 1:08

It's been so long. I started reading this at the very start of July and it has plagued me ever since.

Laura 1:14

I'm not sure if it's exactly right, but the first note in my phone was from the 9th of June. So somewhere around then. Yeah. It's now August, guys.

Bridget 1:23

We're recording this in August. I'm so ready to wash my hands of this, please. I never want to think about it ever again. Month of promo, and then we're done.

Laura 1:33

And I mean, immediately the jig is up. There's absolutely zero. I was laughing about this the other day. Sorry. Because every time we've referenced the fact that we have an episode coming out about this, it's been like, unfortunately, we're reading this book. Sorry to say that we have an episode coming up.

Bridget 1:50

So I think it's a good thing to do though, because we don't want anyone coming in thinking, like, oh yay, they're gonna talk about my favorite book. I can't wait to hear them. And then like we're like, what? So true. If that's you, sorry. You're in the wrong spot, pal. Anyway, I think we need to go back uh a little bit because we've gotten ahead of ourselves immediately. How was your month? It's been ages since we recorded last.

Laura 2:16

My month has been really good. I'm so pleased to report that seven-ish months into the year, I finally ticked off more resolutions other than to have ice magic. So to that list, I can now add purchased wind chimes, done. I made a Pavlova, I made a cherry pie, and actually this is a bit preemptive, but I bought a kit that will aid me in knitting a sweater.

Bridget 2:44

Oh, I have seen that you follow these people on Instagram because we keep getting the ads and it's followed by Laura.

Laura 2:49

I'm so into it. It looks so cool. Well, it's gonna come with everything I need, which I think is where I tend to fall down often because I purchase all the wrong stuff. I don't really know what I'm looking for, but I go in with a lot of passion. So hopefully having the right stuff from the outset will help me. I was in a knitting club in Grade 4. Oh, I think I was in the same one. We did a lot of that French knitting on the toilet roll.

Bridget 3:12

Oh, no, yours sounds much more fancy. This was just like going to someone's house on like a Tuesday afternoon where you just used to knit things. I remember I had such a good time the first like meet of the club that I laughed so much that I vomited. Like I was having a great time. I vomited because I was just laughing too much.

Laura 3:57

The good news is I've come prepared because in case you haven't noticed, I'm sick. So I do have a whole toilet roll to wipe these tears.

Bridget 4:10

This book has broken us. We're not even five minutes in. Oh god. Well, I hope that when your kid gets in a good sign. Sorry for derailing your monthly catch-up.

Laura 4:31

How was your pie? The pie was the worst of the bunch. Um I decided I would throw a dinner party because that was like a quick way to tick all of those things off. Oh, I also made a cobloaf, which was on my list as well. Um, but one of my friends has some dietary restrictions, so um, there could be no gluten and no dairy, which I I love a little cooking challenge. And the cobloaf was a bit of a loss, but the pie I made the crust gluten-free. And it looked pretty good, but I think it definitely tasted gluten-free. The pavlova, though, I mean, I don't know why I wanted to make one so badly, because I just don't even really like pavlova, but he's like pavlova. Yeah, I mean, if I'm gonna keep making them, then I think I could convert myself because not to toot my own horn too much, but it was pretty good. Apart from that, I have added in one note. I don't know if you saw it there. I was trying to be quite mysterious and enigmatic. So the note says, my breakup exclamation mark. And this is something I've saved up to tell Bridget because I finally have converted to Apple music.

Bridget 5:40

Oh my god! How that's so exciting. I was like, I'm I'm getting ready for like I'm getting a divorce. It's less than a year, it's been horrible. Yeah, for our one-year wedding anniversary, we've decided to break up.

Laura 5:54

The voice toilets on his head really broke me. He got sick, you got the ick. Yep.

Bridget 6:03

Wow, I'm so pleased for you. How are you liking it?

Laura 6:06

I'm liking it okay. I am mainly liking the karaoke feature, if I'm being real.

Bridget 6:11

So good. Oh, that okay. The other night when you said, Oh yeah, sorry, I just had my headphones plugged into my microphone because I was doing karaoke. Is that why?

Laura 6:18

Yeah. It's so good though, right? Good if you hold the phone up to the mic and then you can get surrounded. It was sensational.

Bridget 6:27

Apparently, if you have an Apple TV, you can connect it to the TV and it's like a full-on like experience. Oh my god.

Laura 6:34

I don't have an Apple TV, but this could push me over the line. I know I don't have one either, but Mum and Dad do cancel the episode. I'm going there now. Mum, go on holiday. I need to house it. I'm very happy to break up with Spotify. I think the thing was the um billions of dollars committed to AI arms deals or whatever it was. Military AI startups, I think.

Bridget 6:56

Goodness me. The shuffle, I think, is better on Apple Music as well, because I hear a lot of people complaining about how they just hear like espresso 15 times an hour. But I feel like Apple Music does like a true shuffle.

Laura 7:10

Yeah, I would agree with that. I've rediscovered so much of my entire library in the short time I've used Apple Music because it's genuinely showing me stuff I haven't listened to in so long. So that's been really nice. Other than that, though, it's been really quiet. But I would love to hear about what you've been up to.

Bridget 7:25

I've had a really busy month, two months, however long it's been, we can't quite remember. Brian and I went to England for three weeks and it was so delightful. We landed in London, which is normally a bit of a negative part of the trip. But I have to say, whoever designed that Elizabeth line, congratulations because it is stunning. Getting from Heathrow into Paddington was so easy and it was so good. And the weather was so good. Like, normally I'm like, don't go to England in the summer because it's not even worth it. But it is worth it when you had weather like we had, and I think we got like the right three-week length of time. Every day we were like, should we move here? Like is this where we live now? Like forgetting that we'd have to like go to work and stuff. Like, we can't just spend all of our time frolicking through meadows and looking at sheep and stuff. But we went wild swimming.

Laura 8:16

Yes, can you please explain for the listeners what that means?

Bridget 8:20

I didn't know either. So wild swimming is basically you just find a river and you just go for a swim.

Laura 8:25

Oh, so it's similar to swimming.

Bridget 8:27

It's just it's basically just swimming, but ever I was enamoured by this phrase wild swimming, and I could just hear everyone saying, Oh my god, because it was like 24 degrees, and they were like, It's like the hottest it's been ever. We all need to go wild swimming. And so we were like, Um guys, where do you go wild swimming? And they were like, Oh, well, you gotta go here, and you walk like a mile past this pub, and it was so, so nice. The water was the coldest water I've ever been in. And then I looked at my Apple Watch and it said the water was 18 degrees, so it wasn't that cold. And there was a pregnant lady, a very pregnant lady, in the water as well, and she said that she does it every day and she does it in winter. So I want so badly to be that person. I know, but like if we were doing it here, we'd be like, What's biting me? Oh yeah, Millen Bay. And also when we got back, I was like, I want to be doing this while swimming where I can, Millen Bay, the local pool. But they close the outdoor pool for winter. And I'm not swimming in an indoor pool because it's like disgusting.

Laura 9:24

It seems like they just put more piss in that one.

Bridget 9:26

Like band-aids floating around everywhere. It's like shared with the kids' swimming pool, so it's just like all mixed in. So that was probably like a highlight of my life, if I'm being honest, while swimming. It was so, so nice and like just nice to swim in the water and not worry about like being eaten by something and stone fish. Also, not worrying about getting sunburnt. I got a tan when I was in England because we would just sit in the sun, full sun, all day and not get sick and not get burnt and not die. Amazing vitamin D through the roof. I know, and like this is just a reminder to like all the colonials, people that are thinking of like invading countries. If you just stay where you're meant to be, you suit that environment a lot better. Like, I was having a great time. I was like, this is where my ancestors are, and this is where I should be.

Laura 10:16

Diving.

Bridget 10:18

I should not be dying in the Australian sun. It's not for me.

Laura 10:21

Just a great stuff. That's a great culture, actually.

Bridget 10:24

Yeah, it's really sensitive. We went to see the Ozzy Osborn and Black Sabbath farewell show back to the beginning. So it was a whole day event of heavy metal, um, which is not really in my wheelhouse. I like Black Sabbath, but I can't say that I'm too into Slayer or Metallica. But I did sit through about 12 hours of heavy metal music. It was a long day, but he was good. And I mean he died two weeks later, so rest in peace. That is a true pull one out. Brian's been mourning ever since. We went to Oxford as well. We went to Bath, we went to Brighton. I've been wanting to go to Brighton since I saw Angus songs and perfect snocking, but it was just not it. Really? It was the vibes were dismal. Oh yeah. I was like, can we go to Yorkshire please?

Laura 11:09

Get me to the country. Get me to I'm a country girl.

Bridget 11:13

Country girl. But when we when we passed into the Dales, I was like, Oh, I can breathe again.

Laura 11:22

Feeling my body, yeah, feeling the tense muscles in my back unwind. I can feel the whispers of my forefathers telling me, Welcome home. I think there's almost zero mystery around how we feel at this stage. But Bridget, could you please share with me your initial thoughts, expectations, hopes, and dreams coming into reading Credence by Penelope Douglas?

Bridget 11:47

I mean, my expectations, they were on the floor, they were underground. I was thinking, this is not going to be anything that I will ever be interested in. And I also unlocked a memory from I think when I first got my Kindle, and I had like the free Kindle Unlimited trial, and I was just downloading books left, right, and centre. And I've actually started to read a book by Penelope Douglas before, and I didn't realise. And it was called Corrupt, and it was so awful that I immediately like deleted it from the Kindle. I can't even remember what it was about, but I know the cover has like skulls on it, like a little family of skulls. It's so weird that you would even download that. I know. I think I'd seen it on a list of like best books on Kindle Unlimited because it's like slim pickings, yeah. I was just tapping everything. You know when you get like like a new thing and you're like, And when stuff's free.

Laura 12:39

Yeah, free. It's actually not that much of a mystery to me. I think I would have done the same.

Bridget 12:43

But it was awful. I can't remember what happened. I think there was some sort of like sexual assault in like the very first scene, and I was like, this is not a path that I see my life going down. So I need to get out of this. I knew it would be bad, but I don't think I really fully appreciated how bad it would be. I don't think I had like a parameter to measure it by. How about you?

Laura 13:03

I think honestly, I was just feeling a lot of acceptance. It was just sort of like, okay, here we go. I'd seen some videos about it, I'd read the blurb, I had a reasonable idea of what we were getting in for, and I knew it was so undeniably going to be a book that's not for me. And so I think I was just, yeah, resigned to the reading experience.

Bridget 13:22

We've had quite a lot of people ask us over the years to cover this book and also haunting Adeline. So I think we've sort of always known that it's been in the cards for us. Yeah. As we've said many times before, sometimes the worst books make the best episodes. So while I was reluctant to begin my reading of Credence, I was excited and looking forward to the recording process because there's nothing like a shit book for a talk with episode.

Laura 13:46

Yeah.

Bridget 13:48

If for some reason you think you'd rather experience Credence by Penelope Douglas firsthand instead of hearing us spoil it for you, then your time to leave the episode is now. Hit subscribe and come back when you're ready. We'll be here to hold your hand.

Laura 14:00

For this episode, we have a lengthy list of content warnings plucked straight from the author's website. These include misogynistic behavior, power imbalance, group sex, sexual violence, dubious consent, suicide, child neglect, domestic abuse, sexual harassment and bondage.

Bridget 14:18

Tianan De Haas doesn't care about anything anymore. The only child of a film producer and his starlit wife, she's grown up with wealth and privilege, but not love or guidance. Shipped off to boarding schools from an early age, it was still impossible to escape the loneliness and carve out a life of her own. The shadow of her parents' fame followed her everywhere.

Laura 14:36

And when they suddenly pass away, she knows she should be devastated. But has anything really changed? She's always been alone, hasn't she?

Bridget 14:43

Jake Vanderberg, her father's stepbrother and her only living relative, assumes guardianship of Tianan, who is still two months shy of 18. Sent to live with him and his two sons, Noah and Caleb, in the mountains of Colorado, Tianan soon learns that these men now have a say in what she chooses to care and not care about anymore.

Laura 15:00

As the three of them take her under their wing, teach her how to work and survive in the remote woods far away from the rest of the world, she slowly finds her place among them, and as a part of them. She also realizes that lines blur and rules become easy to break when no one else is watching. One of them has her, the other one wants her, but he is going to keep her.

Bridget 15:21

Okay, Laura, I don't think there's any mystery around this, but please, please tell us your post-read feelings about Credence by Penelope Douglas. I don't know what to say. I have not a single note about this section because what is there to say?

Laura 15:36

Yeah, I didn't like it.

Bridget 15:38

It was awful.

Laura 15:39

Yeah. I've really been struggling to summarize my feelings because it's more than not liking it, it's like not even really funny to me. At least with Fifty Shades of Grey, it was I would say maybe not harmless, but quite stupid. But I don't think this is really stupid in the same way. And so I feel like I have more of a like moral responsibility to say something more meaningful about it. But it's also drained me.

Bridget 16:08

Yeah. It's been two, three months nearly of thinking about this, and I still have no smart way to sum up how I feel about this book, and I just think that it is an abomination and it should not exist. Same as you, I know that there's many people that really love this book. I have struggled to figure out why, and I have struggled about a way to talk about this respectfully to those people because obviously reading is subjective and and everybody likes different things, but I honestly cannot see what people like about this book.

Laura 16:40

As we often say, it does feel rich to have a negative opinion on a book that was so obviously not going to be enjoyable for us from the outset, but it really did push me over the edge. I think the themes were so draining and the execution drained me even further. There was a point when I was reading this where I was right in the middle of the book when things are really picking up. And at that point in my personal life, I was having quite an emotionally draining week. And I thought in my head, I would love to just like sit down, read a book, relax. And I looked over and I saw credence on my bedside table and I burst into tears. Genuinely, with my whole heart, was crying at the thought of reading this book. I struggled with the same thing as you. I really didn't want to be trying to intellectualize this book because so much of it really defies reason. Having so recently read the trigger warnings, I think that we really can call it what it is because that's what Penelope Douglas is calling it. It's abuse, it's dubious consent, it's power imbalance. So there's not really any nuance there because that's what the author said it is. To really help our listeners understand the truly absurd beats of this story, Bridget has helpfully put together a summary of the plot points that unfold throughout this book.

Bridget 17:59

I think it's important that we do do a summary. It is a long one. I think many people will not read this before they listen to the episode. I think it's more of a laughing from the sidelines. Yeah, laughing from the sidelines kind of book than a uh read a long kind of book. I think many people listen to our Fifty Shades episode without listening to the book, and so we thought we need to give context for the actually heinous things that happen in this book. And I will say, this took me 45 minutes last night, and it was straight, angry, furious typing for those forty-five minutes. Our main character Tiananen wakes up one morning in her mega mansion surrounded by her turquoise ballet flats and sleeping hair ribbons to find her celebrity mother and father have passed away overnight. It turns out that her father had been diagnosed with terminal cancer and her parents had decided to leave the earth together. Unfortunately for TNN they had no interest in her presence at any point in her life, and she spends ages looking at the tyre swing that these grown adults used to spend hours pushing each other on whilst giggling and gazing into each other's eyes. A few days pass and she cooks two-minute noodles, and her mother's PA cuts down the tire swing, and then she gets a mysterious phone call on her secret phone that she never uses, but for some reason has a full battery. You've already told me so many things about this book that I didn't know.

Laura 19:20

I read it twice. Oh my god.

Bridget 19:23

It's her dead father's estranged stepbrother, and he has been given guardianship of TNN by her parents. She is a few months shy of 18, and she nearly declines his offer to live with him and his two sons, her stepcousins, in an isolated cabin in the mountains of Colorado. But she decides to grab her Louis V and get the next flight out. She meets long lost Uncle Jake at the airport, and she settles in over the next few days. And by settles in, I mean Jake keeps throwing out barbs about her dead father and how pretty his hands were. She meets one of her cousins, Noah, who is immediately obsessed with her and is warned to keep clear of all men in the area and her other cousin, Caleb. Other highlights include screaming arguments with her uncle, getting a splinter, Uncle Jake seductively removing it, fixing a refrigerator, and learning how to shave her beard under the watchful eye of Uncle Jake. Her beard. Yeah. Yeah. So stupid. At some point, Caleb arrives home from the woods and finds her in the laundry and nearly sexually assaults her. But they are interrupted by Noah. We find out that Caleb can't speak. This is later revealed to be due to trauma from Caleb being left in a car by his drug addict mother when he was four. The 21st century family continue bonding and getting erections over the 17-year-old, and Tianan once again narrowly avoids being sexually assaulted by a towny called Holcomb in a pond. And Tannin and Uncle Jake have a sexually charged conversation while fishing before Tianan heads into the cave to get herself off. They then head off to town for a pop-up motorbike race. Because Noah allegedly loves riding motorbikes. Note this is mentioned approximately three times in the whole book. When there, TNN bumps and grinds. Tannan bumps and grinds with one of Caleb's sexual conquests in front of the whole town, and she gets in trouble with her uncle before meeting him in the kitchen at midnight, where he has to tear himself away from her. Once again, she's seventeen. She heads back home for her parents' funeral, and Noah mopes around the house, missing his cousin, before she miraculously reappears like Miley Stewart in the Hannah Montana movie when she realizes she has to nook the cows and collect the eggs to keep being Hannah. Tianan finally turns eighteen and they head into Town to celebrate. The boys get into a brawl and they escape the locals and the police by heading back to the cabin, and luckily, winter has arrived. There will be no leaving the peak until the snow clears. That night, Tianan watches pornography and masturbates on the couch with her two cousins, but they are interrupted by Uncle Jake, who sends her to bed after some disciplinary spanking. A few days later, Tianan loses her virginity to Uncle Jake in his truck, and Noah and Caleb are not happy Jan. Caleb restrains her using the belt he made for her birthday and writes something on her face with a Sharpie, and Noah tries to seduce her to avail. Eventually Jake has to go into the woods and there is a suspicious fire in the barn and Tianan gets injured. Caleb has to stitch her up with a needle and thread, and then the three of them head up to Caleb's room and have a threesome. Tiananen decides to paint some wooden furniture she finds in the barn, and her and Caleb have a tumultuous on and off again relationship. She decides she is his before he heads off into the woods, and eventually she decides she has to head out into the blizzard with Noah to get her man. They return together and spend every waking moment together. Her period is late but eventually comes, but then is caught cradling her belly imagining being pregnant with Caleb's baby, and he throws her birth control in the bin. They head into town now that the snow has melted, and they see Caleb's ex-lover and Tiananen's ex-dance partner, and she is pregnant. Tienen gets upset and packs her bags while waiting for her mother's PA to arrive, but then Holcomb and his buddies arrive to burn the place down, get a motocross scholarship, and assault Tianan. She fights them off with the pink camo bow and arrow set she received for her birthday, and everyone is happy that the good guys won, but Caleb spots her packed bags in the corner and puts them in the PA's car, making the decision for her. She returns to LA and seems to be doing well before all three of the boys appear in her house. Caleb has taught himself to talk. Flash forward a few years to a family camping trip. Caleb and Tianan now have a baby, and Jake is sleeping with the PA, and Noah is having a lovely time riding motorbikes. Tianan and Caleb have sex in the tent a few times and laugh about how Caleb tried to assault her the first time they met. Ha ha ha, all is well. And that is credence.

Laura 24:09

Oh my god. It's so much more absurd than I could ever have articulated.

Bridget 24:16

What an absolutely ridiculous story.

Laura 24:18

I forgot about the pond. And the pink camo bow and arrow. That was such an absurd thing that happened.

Bridget 24:25

Oh. Okay, now that we know everything that happened in the story, I think we need to quickly talk about the author, Penelope Douglas. Penelope Douglas uses they them pronouns. That's how we will refer to them throughout the episode.

Laura 24:37

I think this might possibly be the first time that there hasn't been a Wikipedia page for either the author or the book that we're reading. I was kind of surprised by that given how much talk there seems to be about this book and how many books Penelope Douglas has written as well.

Bridget 24:51

They have written an insane amount of books. At one point I counted 27, but I did get quite confused because a lot of them are listed as part of series, but then they are like two books that have been put together, and then there's like bonus chapters that have been put into a book. So at one point my count was 27, but I don't know if that's the final count. No more, no less. That's a lot of books. They don't have a Wikipedia page, but they do have an amazing website. It is bountiful. Thank you, Penelope, for this. There was one part of the website where it was like a list of exciting facts about Penelope Douglas and really exciting. One of them was I love to boo exclamation mark. And then another one was I am a teacher, which is shocking to me.

Laura 25:37

Yeah, that's something I've really been mulling over as I've read this book. A couple of fun facts I found out about Penelope Douglas are that they write under their own name. I thought possibly this could be a pen name, and I think given the subject matter of all of their books, it's something some may not want to tie to their government identity. I also read that they were born in Iowa in 1977, so 48 years old, and currently they live in New England with their husband and daughter.

Bridget 26:03

They also have the irritating habit of capitalizing every single word. That's a stylistic choice that I cannot stand behind. I'm all for no capitals, and I will hopefully keep doing that until the day I die. But every single word capitalized, no thanks.

Laura 26:16

Do you mean all caps? No title case.

Bridget 26:19

Yeah.

Laura 26:20

I didn't notice that.

Bridget 26:22

That's an abomination. I also enjoyed There Was Some Possible Shade for the Haters. Penelope wrote, Thank you everyone for reading and for reviewing. I appreciate all the minds that were able to see what I was trying to do with this book. XX. And I love that. It's like, you didn't get my book, you weren't smart enough. And I'm happy to be not smart enough to get this book, I think.

Laura 26:43

Yeah, I'll let it slide.

Bridget 26:45

There is one thing that we just can never seem to get away from, and that is the freaking bonus chapters. Like every single author just has bonus chapter after bonus chapter, so much so that we even named our episodes bonus chapters. And I think that Penelope Douglas is no exception to this. And there are three on the website for credence. The first one is uh explained like this, and I will say every single word has a capital letter. Credence bonus scene one. What happened to Tianan's underwear? We never found out in the confines of the story, but we will now. This bonus scene takes place during Credence, after TNN and Noah bring Kayla back from the fishing cabin, and it's a spoiler for the book. If you've read Credence, then read on. I won't put you through any pain by going into detail about the bonus chapters, but there is one quote that I'd like to read, and so obviously TNN's underwear, it just kept going missing.

Laura 27:37

We don't know what happened. I don't understand.

Bridget 27:40

This is a quote from when the big reveal happened. This is from Caleb's point of view. Never taking my mouth off hers, I reach above her head to the cabinet and pull out the box of jalapeno jerky that no one touches but me. I open the top and spill the contents onto the counter. She moans, eating me up, and I take one of the items from the counter and slip it into her hand. He has been keeping her underwear in a box of jalapeno jerky. If she puts that on without washing, even with washing, I would say, that is a medical emergency waiting to happen, and they're stuck at that peak with no access to medical care. You do not want jalapenos up in your business.

Laura 28:21

Or jerky, I would argue. Or jerky.

Bridget 28:24

Like dried meat. So disgusting.

Laura 28:26

That's BV waiting to happen.

Bridget 28:28

This is meant to be sexy. Like the when I was reading, I just had to keep reminding myself this is meant to be sexy. The second bonus scene is entitled Jake and Mariah, and this scene takes place the November following the last chapter of Credence. Not the epilogue, it is a spoiler for Credence. And basically it's Jake and the mother's personal assistant Mariah having phone sex. That's the whole bonus chapter. Why? She folded so quickly as well. She did. She she knew everything that happened. She's like, You're a disgusting pig. Next second, um, you're kind of sexy. The third bonus scene doesn't have a title, but it just says, see what life is like for Caleb and Tion and while she goes to college. And the answer is shit. Caleb hates it. He gets a job in a mechanic and then he works in a library. No, he doesn't.

Laura 29:15

Because he's mute.

Bridget 29:16

No, he speaks at this point. That's right. Um, but yeah, pointless. So a lot of pointless shit happening in these bonus chapters. Um, as I would say, happen in all bonus chapters.

Laura 29:28

Happen in the entirety of the book, dare I say. So I know both of us were really worried about how to sort of thoughtfully and intelligently discuss the topic of taboo. And when I was looking at Penelope Douglas's website, I was hoping to find some sort of justification or explanation that would make it make sense to me. And I guess I say that admitting that maybe it just never will make sense to me. There's a thousand limitations to my mind. But we do have an explanation for their love of taboo on their website, and so I will read it out in case it makes sense to anyone else out there. Not many topics are too taboo for me. I love breaking rules, and I love taking myself out of my comfort zone. Why is that you ask? Well, there is a reason for everything. I could tell you where I was born. I mean, I know it's Iowa. How many siblings I have, or which hobbies I enjoy, but none of that really tells you about someone's life. Experiences do. As an adolescent, I was quiet, shy, and afraid. No mistakes could be made because people would hate me or I'd be alone. So rather than run, I walked. Rather than climb, I kept my feet on the ground, and rather than say yes, I always said no, and as a result, I didn't live. And yet, I still felt disposable, fearful, and alone. What would they say about me when I was gone? Would I have regrets? Every day that I didn't blaze a trail swallowed me up. So I decided I wouldn't be invisible or waste another second. I left home, went to college, and travelled. I took trains from Atsuki to Tokyo all by myself. I jumped Heiji Falls when others joked I wouldn't do it. I did it twice. I climbed Mount Fuji and I moved to New Orleans for graduate school without knowing a single person in the city. I did what I dreamed and I was a lot happier. I don't worry so much anymore, and I don't let others' opinions hold me back. Be yourself and own it. You know what that means? Be loud and proud. Nurture who you are, and good things will come. Most importantly, your happiness. Love when there was no sign off. Love who? From whom is this? Now I have a sense of what Penelope Douglas is trying to say here, but I don't think that really explains to me why we're writing about taboo. Because I think when you're saying I went out to take what's mine, you're like climbing the professional ladder shamelessly. You're quitting your job and you're moving to Italy, India. Bali. Bali. Uh you know, you're you're just finding joy in nature. You're connecting with friends. You're not living life for you. Yes.

Bridget 32:12

You're a peacock and you gotta let me fly.

Laura 32:14

Exactly. You've got to let me fly. That's what I think it means to live, you know, openly, fearlessly, shamelessly, whatever you whatever have you. I don't think it means writing an uncle fucking book for millions worldwide. I don't think that either. It's never once crossed my mind to do that. Well, maybe you're afraid. Maybe maybe. So, in an attempt to be, you know, a little bit more thoughtful and hopefully considered in my assessment of this book and Penelope Douglas and the world of taboo, I tried to do a little bit more reading about it. Because as far as I'm concerned, you know, in the world of Penelope Douglas, taboo seems to be about dubious consent, I would argue rape, uh, underage protagonists, incest, abuse, manipulation, exploitation, all of the good stuff. When we read Fifty Shades of Grey for the podcast, we spoke briefly about how the BDSM community was not pleased with E. L. James's portrayal of their lifestyle. And so when it came to understanding taboo and sexual desire in line with credence, I wondered if the same could be considered. When we talk about sexual taboo, we're talking about behaviour, relationships, a concept related to sex that a society or culture considers unacceptable or forbids. So I mean this can be hugely varied from culture to culture, but these taboos often stem from deeply ingrained social, cultural, or religious norms. So some examples of taboo across Western cultures would be things like bestiality or incest. I think those are the two main the the two big dogs that come to mind.

Bridget 33:42

Yeah.

Laura 33:43

The main big vegan, the total main big vegans, indeed. In my reading, I came across Quinn, which is a popular audio erotica app for women, and in a blog on their website they explain the difference between taboo, kink, and fetish, which I think is important to consider when reading this book. So I'm just going to read from their site. Taboo sexual acts are considered abnormal or unacceptable by societal standards, like sleeping with your married professor. Fetishes and kinks, on the other hand, are unique experiences that cause arousal and help the person achieve climax. But even these two terms differ. Kinks are specific sexual preferences or practices that often deviate from traditionally normal sexual behavior. Common kinks include role play, exhibitionism, voyeurism, oralism, bondage, temperature play, tickling. What's considered a kink is subjective, but the prioritization is communication, understanding, and agreement between partners that's universally agreed upon. Sexual fetishes are fixations or attractions on a body part, material, object, or scenario that becomes a person's primary focus for sexual arousal or climax. Common fetishes range from a focus on specific materials like leather or latex to an attraction to certain body parts like feet. Fetish and kink is more closely what we were dealing with when we were talking about Fifty Shades of Grey. That point there about the prioritization of communication, understanding, and agreement between partners is what we heard that the BDSM community was upset about in relation to Fifty Shades of Grey, because that wasn't really a part of the book. No. Um so later on the Quinn website, they also list a variety of taboos, including some that I think we explicitly see or are implied in credence. And these include breeding. Those with a breeding fantasy feel sexually aroused by the thought of impregnating or becoming impregnated by their partner or partners. Age gaps. Age gap sexual play where one person in a sexual relationship pretends to be much younger or older than the other, often revolves around power dynamics. Lastly, incest. This fantasy involves engaging in sexual activity with a family member, including step siblings or parents. Most countries outlaw this behavior and consider it deviant due to social, moral, and biological reasons.

Bridget 35:58

It is interesting that the definition there involves step siblings or, you know, step-family members, because I've seen a lot of people on TikTok mainly defending the book, saying that it is not inappropriate because they are step. Jake is Tianan's step-uncle. The thing about incest that's been sort of whizzing around in my brain since I've been reading it is that incest is not illegal purely because of the biological problems that might be caused if someone had a baby with a family member. A step-uncle is a person that has power over a child because Tiernan is a child when she's 17. And that person is in a position of trust. Jake is abusing his position of trust. It doesn't matter that he's not related to her by blood. It matters because he is now her guardian.

Laura 36:43

Yeah, like if you think about this, if it were any other kind of book, Tiernan's parents have both just died. She's underage, she's emotionally vulnerable, she's in an incredibly fragile state. And maybe in another book, she goes to live with this man who she doesn't know. Maybe he's not sexually abusing her, but if he's exerting any kind of power over her, he's undeniably taking advantage of her due to that sort of imbalance in their relationship. Even if she was of age, due to her emotional state alone, he's already in a more dominant position in their relationship than her.

Bridget 37:17

Yeah. And if we take away the relationship between Jake and Tianan's father, like if he was a foster carer, if he was a stranger, it's exactly the same situation. Like it's still just as predatory for him to be having these thoughts about her and not just having these thoughts. Like when she's still 17, he's telling her the things that he wants to do and he's showing her his erection and he's doing all of these things. It's still like even if he was a stranger, it would still be inappropriate and still be illegal. It doesn't matter that he's only the step-uncle because he is her guardian. He's a legal guardian. It's so wrong. And I think the people that are defending that, I just can't understand why.

Laura 37:55

I tried really hard to understand a counter-perspective. Because I don't really ever want to be that person that's like, if you play video games with guns, you're gonna go shoot someone, or if you read a book that has any any sort of negative subplot, whether it's child abuse or I don't know, controlling relationship or whatever it may be that you are there for endorsing that and going to enact that in real life. Earlier we were talking about how Penelope Douglas is a teacher, and I was talking to one of my friends, and I was like, I think it's so sick that she's a teacher. I was like really on my moral high horse about it. And my friend said, Well, I'm a teacher, and I read this and I didn't think it was good, but it got me thinking about like how do we separate what we read and what we think about from who we are.

Bridget 38:41

So obviously, as we've mentioned about three million times, this is a book that is very far removed from our personal reading tastes, and we've had to dig pretty deep to think about what value people are actually finding in this book. So we talked to the streets, and by streets I mean TikTok, and we asked for input from people that really loved Credence, and we did get some really interesting replies. One of the comments said that it was the taboo that drew her in. Another said that they love any book that has a female protagonist who is just taking what she wants. Another person said, I guess I love watching someone who is just somewhat broken heel. The last comment I'm just going to read in full because I think it's quite interesting as a whole, and it says, I think going into it remembering it's fiction and it ain't real is the first step. But it's the genuinely not knowing which way she was going to go at the end. It's being wanted by fit, hot mountain men when your whole weird world falls apart. It's the seclusion up in the mountains and not having the real world breathing down your neck. I also think it's a pretty good starter book on a somewhat darker slash more taboo romance journey, because realistically it isn't that bad. A female main character letting herself have what she wants, healing in her own way, it was a solid four-star read for me. Although Noah annoyed me a little, but I think he got his redemption. And then there's Shog emoji. And I think that's a very sensible explanation for why you would like this book. Like fit hot mountain men, sure. World falling apart, sure, but she didn't have to be 17 and she didn't have to be related to them.

Laura 40:14

Yeah, I think it's like the compounding taboos that really throw me off. Because I mean, I understand how could they keep her there? What's the plot device that's going to keep her there if she's 19 or 20? It could be like a farm stay or something. Yeah, or maybe it's just a really bad winter. Yeah. Maybe her car breaks down, maybe I don't know. Yeah. She runs out of cash. Yeah. Maybe she breaks her leg. I don't know. I guess I kept thinking I wouldn't want to watch it. I wouldn't want to live it. So why would I want to read it? I think there's a lot of my own personal prejudice coming into play here as well. In that comment, the things about, you know, seclusion up in the mountains, not having the real world, breathing down your neck. That's the most buy-in from me. Because I thought, yeah, you know, they were a little boring. But those passages where she's making the pancakes and fixing the fridge, as annoying as I found them, it was a little bit reminiscent of Bella making the steak and making the lasagna.

Bridget 41:05

Breaking up the noodles. I think we also have to acknowledge that we are obviously prudes. Yeah. And I'm happy to claim that, but at the same time, I'm also thinking, at what point does this stop being a dark romance taboo book and just become erotica or porn?

Laura 41:24

Well, it's funny because I did see so many reviews saying it's not even that spicy. Which I mean, I kind of thought I thought that they'd be having way more sex. I thought all three of them were gonna get involved.

Bridget 41:34

I think it was sort of marketed as though, like, you know, they're gonna have breakfast and they're all gonna just be having sex on the table together. And I don't think that like I'm not saying that people that read Smart or Taboo or Dark Romance are like doing something that's morally wrong. I think go for whatever you want to go for. But I think that the way people talk about this book as if it's some like literary masterpiece is truly baffling to me because it's just not. Like the whole time I just was reading it and I thought, what what is going on? At most points I was confused and just thinking, but why is this happening? This this story makes no sense. Like, even if you take away the sex scenes, what is going on with this book?

Laura 42:16

That's so true, and I think it's something we talk about often with a book that we don't view so favorably, but the things that would make the book more interesting to me, like exploring Tienen's relationship with her parents, like exploring for even one second why she keeps having night terrors. Yeah, was that ever explained? No, I don't I don't think so. Um the whole thing with Caleb and his selective mutism, those things didn't hit as hard for me. I didn't really get what I was hoping for out of those. And then when I'm hearing people say it was such a rewarding story because of, you know, she's had a hard life and she's getting what she's owed and Caleb's healing and that kind of thing, I'm thinking where? And then I go in this loop of like, maybe they think I'm dumb because I can't see where. And then I'm like, I think they're dumb because they're making up stuff that isn't there. And I mean, the same could be said, you know, for a Sally Rooney book or something I'm reading. I'm like, oh yeah, like it's really XYZ because of all of this blah blah subtext, well, yada yada. Yeah. Detractors of that book would be saying there's no plot, nothing happens, nothing happens. You know, like we can go in this cycle endlessly, it still doesn't change how I feel.

Bridget 43:27

No, no, not at all. And I think people that are saying that, you know, love a book that has a female protagonist just taking what she wants, but that's in my mind, that's not happening. It's it's a f it's a a broken child going from a place where she has no nowhere to fit in, no safe place, to another place where there is no safe space. She's constantly walking on eggshells around these dangerous men. She's being warned of dangerous men in the in the town, in the house. She's like constantly saying, like, well, don't worry, like we'll we'll only bruise you when we know you. And like she's centering herself around men. At a very young and vulnerable age. How is that a powerful feminist, like go girl? It doesn't make any sense. Like Tiernan, like living for Tiernan would be getting as far away from those men as possible and going and like using this immense privilege that she has from misfortune that her parents have left her and doing whatever she wants. She could go and live in the mountains by herself. Why does she need to shack up with her cousin? Who is a bad guy? He's a bad guy.

Laura 44:29

Undeniably a bad guy.

Bridget 44:31

And they're all bad men.

Laura 44:33

I think now could be a good time to dig into some of the specifics about why we're feeling the way we are, although we have already said quite a lot. Before we do that, I was thinking about how when we read Fifty Shades of Grey, we had such a remarkable amount of notes each. So much so that they needed their own individual categories. Now I've seen the amount of post-its on your book, and when we put together our thoughts and feelings and research for the episode, generally we work independently. So I'm hoping for a bit of a I'll show you mine if you show me yours situation. I would love to know what are your note categories this time around, Bridget.

Bridget 45:08

My first one is writing tips for Laura, XOXO. That's some wisdom that I'm gonna impart on you a bit later on. Second one is belonging in quotation marks. Boring is another one. Actually, what is going on? Smart, everyone's a psychologist. Then I have Tin and I have a few subheadings for Tin. And so first one is hot rich girl, maybe. Night Terrors, maybe Senorita Awesome. And then we have some for Uncle Jake. Cobra Kai. Protective and possessive, but for what reason? Does he even like her? 17 in brackets still. It's like the prequel to 17 again. Um inconsistencies, and then we have Caleb. Warnings about Caleb. That's good. Noah, sickening sibling energy, racing, and then we have womp womp. And then lastly, Credence Defenders.

Laura 46:14

Nice. How about you? I have a few. I have general quotes. Don't know why I couldn't categorize those ones. There's only two. I have these people are so embarrassing. Caleb definitely has a parasite. Baby brain. Wow. These men hate women. She needs medicine. Uh quite a large category is what the what? Voice of reason. And then an extra special category, which I had actually forgotten about until I read it just now, which is Caleb should have stayed mute. How the hell did he learn to speak frat bromoron in between getting a yerk in his brain from all the animal blood and open wounds? Well, maybe we could begin our deeper discussion by talking about Tin and In amongst all of those notes. What do you have to say about Tin and Bridget?

Bridget 47:06

Oh, I mean, there's so many things I have to say about Tin, and I don't really know where to start. But maybe maybe we could just quickly run through who she is as a person. So she's 17, turning 18. She is a rich girl, she's a shy girl, she has been raised in boarding schools. She's finishing her senior year in high school. I think so. Possibly. And possibly going to university. For some reason, she decides to start painting furniture. I'm struggling to find a way to tie this all together because I think TNN as a character is a very confusing character. At some point, she is like a hot, rich Cali girl, but then at other times she's like happy to stay inside with a book. She's a bit like Anastasia Steele, like nothing better to me than curling up with a good book and like a cup of tea. And I think that there's just so many conflicting parts to her personality that I don't really understand her as a character. What do you think about her?

Laura 48:09

Yeah, I think from this point onwards we just have to kind of like just forget about feeling sorry for her and all of the like serious allegations we were spreading before because it's just like, you know, at a at a point you have to let it go because this character is ridiculous. Every character in this book is ridiculous.

Bridget 48:26

And I think what the author was trying to do with Tiananen is to write a character that is broken and that is upset and lost in the world, and ultimately they find their way through the darkness, find the light, blah blah blah. I think the thesis statement for the book can be found in the author's note. And so Penelope Douglas writes I knew some wouldn't connect with the characters, or connect yet, anyway. I knew some wouldn't see what I hoped they'd see in the Vanderbergs. And Jake rediscovering that life isn't over, that there's more there for him, and Noah, desperate for the courage to leave and for his own path, in Caleb and his fears of trusting his heart in someone else's hands, and in learning what it can take for some of us years to learn that we belong here. And so I think that the point of TNN was to show somebody finding her place in the world. She says after the fight with Noah on page 338, I'm not some twit who latches onto anyone who shows her attention or soaks up attention from anyone who comes along. Jake didn't mark me. I chose. This is, I think, her opinion of herself throughout the whole book. She thinks she has full control. She chooses when when Jake does that to her, and she chooses when she sleeps with Noah, and she chooses this, and she chooses Caleb.

Laura 49:47

And none of these men are respecting her boundaries. It's not like they're like, oh, she's chosen, I'm gonna back off. They're all still so persistent in their pursuit of her. And of course, you know, it's the whole idea of the book, but we have this forced proximity. It's not real life. Like, how can you really be making a true choice when you're snowed in on a mountain with three men who are desperate to have sex with you? Under the category She Needs Medicine, I do have some quotes that kind of illustrate this back and forth of her own mind. I'll just read them out at random. Honestly, it doesn't really matter who she's saying them in reference to. I envision him up here all those nights alone, scribbling away in the books. All those nights wasted. Maybe he wrote this before he saw me come out of his father's room. We could have done things so much differently. I'm glad it's Noah behind me though.

Bridget 50:35

He's who I'm safe with. But like literally, when has she been safe with Noah? Every time she's alone with Noah, he is trying to sleep with her, and she's like saying, Oh no, no, it's okay. I'll show you my boobs, but I don't want to have sex with you. Like, it doesn't make any sense. I'm just I'm actually at a loss of what to talk about because I'm so confused by it.

Laura 50:54

Me too. Another one, but at the time, in my head, you weren't the first. You were the only one I should be with because I finally liked myself and I liked how you pushed me because it made me push back. You made me learn how to demand, and for that, I'll always be grateful. Like, what is she demanding? Because she's not demanding anything that I think a reasonable person would be, which is respect my boundaries, respectful stop. Yeah, don't assault me, let me off this mountain, hear me when I'm saying I want to leave.

Bridget 51:25

I was sort of wondering if the reason why she just accepts their version of love is because the things that they tell her are so intense from the very start. And so, like my category, everyone's a psychologist, is like everybody just diagnosing each other all the time, even though they are all like the biggest dumb shits I've ever like read in my life, but like they're constantly just um you know making judgments about TNN's whole life and like how she feels after her parents just neglected her for her whole life, and she also does it. She like says things to Caleb about the the mother, and she's talking to Jake about his ex-girlfriend and all this shit. But like a few examples of the diagnoses that are just being slung around the house is um this one from Noah. This is like a day after they've met, and Noah says to her, I think you are sad, but not as much as you're angry. Because actually, it was the other way around, wasn't it? They resented you, they turned you over to whoever they could as soon as you were old enough. Boarding schools, sleepaway summer camps, nannies. This is a 20-year-old man. Why is he saying this? Why is he theorizing about why she is so prickly and like reserved? Maybe she's prickly and reserved because her parents died three days ago, and she's in this weird freaking house with people she doesn't know, and they're all like weirdly threatening towards her, and they're like making vague threats about Caleb, who hasn't yet appeared, and they're like, Oh, watch out for Caleb, he'll bruise you, he'll tie you up and won't let you out of his room for three months. Like, maybe that's why she's prickly and like doesn't want to engage with them and like cook them breakfast and shit. And then she's like like in the middle of an argument with her and Jake, and he's like, Oh, you're always rude to us, and you never want to cook us breakfast, you bitch. And she's like, I'm not used to people. Like, yeah, but also once again, you're grieving and you're a child. It's not up to you to make everybody in the house feel comfortable. Sorry, Jake, but get a grip. Yeah, they really need to grow up. And then the absolutely hysterical thing with the lollies. So, like, they go to the candy shop, he makes her fill a bag with lollies, and then for a second, she's got an eating disorder. Like, never again mentioned.

Laura 53:40

I forgot about that.

Bridget 53:42

But she's never gonna eat these lollies, even though later in the book she says the only thing that she needs in her life is a net the people that make Netflix and the people that make candy. So that's like like an abrupt uh turn, you know, 180. But she chucks away the lollies and then like miraculously they reappear because like once again, they're always in her room. Stay out of her room. Stop touching, stop touching her things.

Laura 54:04

She doesn't want to eat bin lollies.

Bridget 54:05

Yeah, who wants to eat bin lollies? And they'd pop, they've probably been sitting in those jars at that lolli shop for the last 15 years. They would be stale and like rock hard and tasteless by that point.

Laura 54:17

You probably put them in the jalapeno jerky team.

Bridget 54:20

A little bit of spice. And the absolutely hysterical note from Caleb, who I am I mean, I'm not trying to be ableist here, but I'm like a hundred percent convinced that he's borderline illiterate. And he wrote the note, your parents never gave you anything sweet, that's why you're not. And I just that made me actually laugh out loud. Like, your parents never gave you anything sweet, that's why you're not. What does that mean? What does that mean? You're such a bitch, XO. You're a bitch because your parents hated you. But like it's such a childish like sentence. No, who would write it?

Laura 55:01

I know he definitely wrote Y-O-U-R.

Bridget 55:05

Said with love. He really did said with love. We just have to lead into the snob. We're just snobs today. Sorry, we're snobs. Gloves off. And just some more like enlightening insights from I think this was Jake this time, and she's crying about her parents. And she's like, why did they never love me? And like obviously very sad, but once again, couldn't care less. But he says to her, she's like, What why did they never love to love me? He said, Because they were fuckers, baby. They were fucking fuckers.

Laura 55:40

Wow, thanks. That makes me feel heaps better, Uncle Jake.

Bridget 55:43

And like, I don't really swear much because if I swear, like when I'm at home, I'll go to work and I and I'll swear. But in my notes, I'm constantly like just swearing. I'm constantly swearing. Twenty pages later, someone says to her, You just needed what everyone needs a home.

Laura 55:57

They're so deluded about what they're providing her because even Noah doesn't like being there. No, even Caleb doesn't like being there.

Bridget 56:05

Pissing off into the woods every two minutes.

Laura 56:07

Jake doesn't like it. Why are they there? And they just found out about her.

Bridget 56:11

I think after a while, TNN has sort of, you know, learned the ways of the psychologist household. Like everyone's got to be diagnosing everybody. And so she goes in. This is after her and Jake have slept together, and he like trauma dumps on her about his one and only love in his life, whatever her name was, the Mexican girl.

Laura 56:29

Blanked that whole section.

Bridget 56:31

Who cares? So ridiculous. And so then he's in the bathroom and he looks a tiny bit melancholy. And so she goes in and she's like, I can fix this. Oh, that was. I just pretend to be her. And so he he's just like brushing his teeth or something. She goes up and she says to him, Are you thinking about her? That was like same.

Laura 56:54

Your 17-year-old niece is trying to replace your dead one-time lover by having sex with you.

Bridget 57:00

What is going on in her head? I don't know. Another time where she's just assuming things. It's like after Caleb and Noah and her have had sex. And like, might I add, she's had sex with Jake probably six times by this point. He's pissed off to the fishing cabin. She gets her arm cut open or her hand or something. It's stitched up without any anesthetic. Then they go up to the room and she starts having sex with Noah. Keeping in mind, this is probably a like a week after losing her virginity. And then Caleb is taking her ass. Take taking her ass, because that's what is owed to him. Because Noah got her first and Jay got her first. No discussion, no preparation, no, hey, sorry, like do you want this? No checking for consent. She's been 18 for a hot minute at this point. Maybe a week. Yeah. I don't know. And then the very next day, so she's back to assuming things, she's back to diagnosing, and she goes up to Caleb, who let's remind everybody, can't speak, and she says to him, I don't know what you were saying last night, but I felt it.

Laura 58:12

What? He literally wasn't saying anything. Felt what? She just makes stuff up. She just makes stuff. She made up their whole relationship because he gave her nothing. Yeah. And then the one chapter we get from his perspective is so astonishing. Like I honestly don't understand how anyone else is reading that thinking anything other than he hates her. Yeah. I mean, it was kind of trying to go in the direction of ten things I hate about you. But most of all, I hate that I don't hate you. Not even a little bit. Not even a lot. But if I could detour, under my category, wow, these men hate women are some of the things that Caleb was thinking about Tianan in that chapter from his perspective. On page 364, he says he's so sick of her sludding around, fucking him today in the barn, letting his father touch her and kiss her tonight. He's sick of seeing her smile when she works on her dumb shit in the shop. Sick of her excited by the snow or happy when she feeds the horses. Sick of seeing her hair fall across her cheek as she reads at the dinner table or how she twists her lips to the side when she's concentrating on an assignment. Sick of her cries at night and how pathetic she sounds during her nightmares. Which one is it, Caleb? Just wind it back with a bit of genuine hatred at the end.

Bridget 59:26

Caleb is I think the first time that we see him on the page, it's genuinely horrifying.

Laura 59:32

He's covered in blood.

Bridget 59:34

In blood. And like I think if you like couple this with all of the warnings that we've received about him up until this point, like we first hear, like when they're in the candy shop, the shop assistant is like once again giving his opinion about everything. Like everyone is just like very happy to share their opinion at any time. And he says to Jake, when have you ever been able to control Caleb around women? And then Noah says, or somebody says, he likes space. Keep that in mind when you meet him and don't take anything personally. Noah refers to Caleb's room as Skid Row, where women are lucky to leave alive. Oh my god. And then after he like nearly assault her on the hood of the car the first time they meet, Noah says to her, You were going at her so hard the other night she couldn't get a word out. Yeah, and the word was no babe. Yeah, that was the word she was. She was giving it a red hot go. She was saying it. And then when they were in the drive-thru, remember they went to the drive-thru to get burgers, and the drive-thru worker was like, Do you want a hot piece of airs to come up with you for the winter? And Noah, for some reason, is like, Yeah, you can come up and keep Caleb company, only if he puts you back in the pantry the 23 hours of the day he's not using you. What is wrong with these people?

Laura 1:00:50

What is what is happening in this book? Well, I mean, this leads into my theory that Caleb definitely has a parasite, because this was a sincere concern of mine given the amount of interactions he has with animal blood and with open wounds.

Bridget 1:01:05

I think at one point he's like licking the blood from his face or something, or like from his fingers or something.

Laura 1:01:10

Probably. There is a quote I have. He rubs his jaw across his shoulder, blood from his open wounds spreading across his cheek. But I mean, I'm I was watching alone, you know, it's like a very real concern. Some of them get medically evacuated because of they get genuine parasites. So I just think that's not sanitary, it's not safe. He's very much giving like the Phantom of the Opera.

Bridget 1:01:38

Yeah, it really is the Phantom of the Opera. And you know what, like the same thing about the Phantom of the Opera? Why was everyone just happy to keep both Phantom and Caleb just living that way? Yes. Like, why did Uncle Jake and Madame, whatever her name is, why were they just like, maybe we should get this guy some help? Yeah. Doesn't make any sense.

Laura 1:02:01

Well, they don't vote.

Bridget 1:02:03

No.

Laura 1:02:04

I don't know if it was implied or if it was something I made up from my own biases, but I'm pretty sure they're not vaccinated. Did I say that? Well, probably not. I don't know. I think they don't they wouldn't believe in therapy, they wouldn't believe in any sort of like kind of community intervention. They probably don't believe in doctors.

Bridget 1:02:20

No, that that is true. If Jake sorted Caleb's shit out from a young age, he was four when he stopped talking, they wouldn't be walking on eggshells. Because how can they be having a nice time living with this he's he's like a ticking tyra bomb? Yeah, he's a horrible person. They're scared of him. He's like constantly wrecking shit. If you fix him or help him, maybe not even fix, help support, find strategies to help him, take him to a speech therapist, a psychologist, like something it will help everybody's quality of life.

Laura 1:02:58

It is actually astonishing that he stopped speaking aged four and everyone was like, Well, this is just what he does now.

Bridget 1:03:05

Yeah, you know what? I tried to learn sign language for like a hot minute and then I just gave up. Also, like, how's that gonna help?

Laura 1:03:11

Caleb's not gonna learn sign language, he's just gonna go kill something. It's interesting to think about as well because like they clearly don't participate in society very much, so you have to wonder where he gets his perspectives on women from. And I think given the way that we see Uncle Jake acting and speaking, it's not a surprise that Caleb has such viciously hateful opinions towards TN and women in general. A couple more things that he says on page 365 as his having sex with her. He could be anyone right now. He'll drop her panties and slip inside her, and she won't even open her eyes to tell which one it is, because it doesn't really matter. Um, I would just like to remind everyone that she goes on to marry and have a child with this man. I don't want to drop the C bomb on Mike, so I'm just gonna say runt, but uh again on that same page, pretty little runt. He grinds on her once. That's what she is, runt. I don't know if that's better or worse. In between all of this, Victory Ole, his thinking about her and all of the sex that they're having, she finds the time to turn around and be like, You're such an asshole. He smirks. He is, and she likes to act like she fucking cares, putting up a fight one minute and begging for a dicking the next. She won't stop him because as long as someone is fucking her, she doesn't have to remember all of the nothing she is. There's one more quote in this vein that I have here, and I honestly can't remember at what point in the book it comes from, but it says, Slut, why can't I fucking leave? It's time to go in. I've been here too long. That fucking slut, that stupid slut.

Bridget 1:04:45

The culture of the house, like in regards to their nighttime visitors, is actually insane. So what they they go into the village, they pick up someone new every time, maybe. Sometimes there's like people that just appear in their bedroom naked. It's like The Sims. It doesn't make any sense. And like the way that TNN thinks that this is just like normal behavior astounds me. And I don't know, maybe it is normal behavior. Maybe that their libido levels are normal. I've no idea. It seems out of control to me. Like the fact that they can't spend three months without having sex with somebody, they're like rabid dogs after two nights is incomprehensible to me.

Laura 1:05:30

It really is the most miserable way of writing about men and women because like we have these male characters that are all just absolute slobs and animals and complete slaves to their own sex drive. And then all of the female characters are just sort of playthings with zero autonomy.

Bridget 1:05:48

Yeah, like there's a point where uh TNN is still 17 and Jake says to her in the kitchen, This is what you're doing to me. He shows her his erection somehow, like pulls her into him or something. And he says, This is what you're doing to me, Tienen. It's not right. Instead of pile driving the hot tits and arse I came home with, I'm sitting down here trying to talk myself out of going into your room and giving the teenage piece of ass living in my house a really good kiss good night.

Laura 1:06:16

What? Oh I mean, we've been talking about this for a long time now, and I've read the book and I've researched the book, but my jaw honestly dropped hearing you say that.

Bridget 1:06:26

It's wild. In my head, what I imagine when they leave town every few days or wherever, however many times they go, they're in this like really redneck, beat up truck, probably like a Chevy or something. And there's like a like a dog with maybe like one ear missing, hanging out the back with its tongue like a meter long out the back. And there's just like these rednecks. Definitely guns, definitely flags. They're wearing like grey singlets with holes, and you can see all the chest hair coming out of it, and they've got like a cigarette hanging out of their mouth, and you know, they've missing a few teeth or something, and they're just like got these women in there, like, come on, ladies, let's go.

Laura 1:07:08

Let's get a swimming.

Bridget 1:07:10

And it's just that is Tannan has come from California. She's rich, she's sophisticated, as we're led to believe. Um, you know, when she goes to the pub, she's wearing like high-heeled booties and she's wearing like a backless dress. Why what what is the what is the attraction with these men? I don't know.

Laura 1:07:29

How does she like them? You know Caleb smells so bad. Yeah, he has multiple open wounds on his body at any given time. You know he showers maybe once a month.

Bridget 1:07:41

And Noah, let's talk about Noah because we haven't really touched on him yet. But he is the most infuriating baby I have ever read. I think like he is such a pick me, and he is constantly just like throwing out these one-liners, like he's read on read them on like 4chan 10 years ago, and he's he's an incel. That's so undeniably. One of the most embarrassing things is like on page 318, after he's like really offended that Tien and chose to give a virginity to his father instead of him, and he says, Daddy didn't love you, so you let mine fuck you, so he will. Like what that is that would make me throw up. He's so despicable. The first time they that they meet, it says, This is Noah. Jake introduces us, my youngest. It takes me a moment, but I raise my hand to shake his. Instead of taking it though, he just puts one of the bottles in it and says, Learn to like it. We drink a lot here. Like you just know he was in the shower the night before, like practicing that line. Like, which hand should I get?

Laura 1:08:49

Noah. He's so embarrassed. Practicing with the beer bottle in the mirror.

Bridget 1:08:52

Yeah, and I just think it's so funny to me that he never really gets like his chance with Tien, and like he has that one time, but it's really only because Caleb's there.

Laura 1:09:01

There's such a fun thing so funny. It's so funny. There's such a good line where she says, I'm sorry, Noah, some lessons can only be learned the hard way. After she's decided it's Caleb for me.

Bridget 1:09:16

At no point did I feel sorry for any of these characters, but like he was just always whining on about his life and how hard it was that he lived in this beautiful place and like with his crazy brother and his horrible father. And he said, um on page 156, I think this is when they were like lying in the shower for some reason. I was very confused about what was going on there.

Laura 1:09:37

They were hiding from Caleb, I think.

Bridget 1:09:38

Well, I think they were hiding from his like the girl he'd just slept with.

Laura 1:09:42

Oh that's it.

Bridget 1:09:42

And like also the father. Like I I was very confused because they obviously knew they were in there. So are they hiding the door? Like they watched them walk in. I I'm getting myself worked up again. I don't know. But he says to her when they're like lying in the bathtub, all wrapped up in the shower can you ever feel like you're in a box and all you see are your four walls, no matter what you do, no matter how far you walk, the view never changes. What? Shut up. What are you talking about? You're not a poet. He's read like Matthew McConaughey's memoir or something, and he's like, This is gonna be me.

Laura 1:10:19

My favorite book is Green Lights. Noah like you. I have a couple of quotes that I think really drive home the utter hopelessness of her situation, and it's the way that these men reinforce each other's behavior again and again and just confidently make up their own perspectives on the situation that they force upon Tiananen. I think at the end of the book, when everyone just starts saying that Caleb loves Tianan, is a perfect example of that. Um, so I think this comes after he's like smashed up her furniture and like lit it on fire, possibly done some other horrible stuff to her as well, I can't quite remember. But Jake says he wasn't right. Jake watches me as Noah sits quietly across from me, and he communicates by losing his temper. He was wrong, yes, but he was hurt. The only woman he ever loved forgot about him and almost killed him. He pauses. He's in love with you, Tiernan. He was jealous. Since when? Honestly, since when? And how would you know? Since when have you backed off it? Honestly. And then they both suddenly like, be my guest.

Bridget 1:11:27

Maybe there was a scene we didn't see where Caleb pissed on her. She's mine.

Laura 1:11:33

Well, speaking of she's she's mine. Tiernin. Jake calls after me. I stop, hesitating a moment before I turn my head. Jake sits in his chair looking at me. When Caleb stopped talking, I tried to use sign language with him, he tells me. I still remember some of it. And then he puts his palm to his chest and taps twice, imitating the gesture Caleb made before he left last week. This, he says, means mine. A big question throughout this book was Caleb's developmental level, because he apparently stopped speaking when he was four. And then sort of the major sources of outside stimulus he's had have been, sadly, Noah and Jake. And I mean he has some sort of assorted classic literature in his room that he allegedly reads, but as we see, when he scribbles in the margins of them, he's not even spelling right. And I don't know if they think it's like a funny play on expectations, but he was certainly spelling stupid S-T-O-O-P-ID.

Bridget 1:12:38

And it's also really funny because Tianan is like when she first sees the books, when she goes looking for her stupid hair ribbon or her panties, um, she's like, Look at all these books. There's no way he reads these books. And then later, when she finds all of the annotations in them, she's like, Oh wait, yeah, no, he's not reading them. He's just using them as paper.

Laura 1:12:59

It's like she's allegedly in love with him, even she thinks he's a dumb shit. I just think how far could he come without like outside input. I don't know if it was outlined whether they did go to school or not.

Bridget 1:13:11

They did because he was talking about how the girls, I think the girls at school used to call him stupid. Oh, that's that's what that's in reference to.

Laura 1:13:18

So I assume they went to school, but in good faith, I've got a you know, I think Caleb was having a funny joke with the spelling of stupid there, but he's not exhibiting behavior that suggests that he has the emotional regulation of an adult. Of an adult.

Bridget 1:13:33

And I like I think if this were any other book, I would be trying to explain his behaviour. Like, uh oh, I'd be thinking, oh, but he's he was abandoned in the car and he was blah blah blah blah. These serious topics are handed with such indelicacy that I don't even care. Like it it's just he's just stupid. He's not stupid because of this and this and this. He's just stupid.

Laura 1:13:53

I know. I think at the time the big reveal about Caleb's reason for being mute popped up and it was like, oh, his mum left him in the car for four days. I was like, oh, four days.

Bridget 1:14:02

Yeah. One thing that I found quite amusing is that even though there was a lot of love for this book, there's not a lot of love for Caleb. Like it is quite rare that I see someone say, Oh, I love Caleb. Normally it's like, I love this book, but I wish she didn't end up with Caleb. That is not an opinion that Penelope Douglas shares. They were asked, Who's your favourite hero of yours? And they said, I relate so much to the really damaged ones Damon, Jared, Jax, Caleb. Dot dot dot. So it I feel like this is a bit of a Magnolia Parks, Jessa Hastings sort of situation. But there's another really embarrassing thing that I found on Penelope Douglas's Instagram. And and like the there's so many things that I don't get in this caption because I haven't read and I won't read any more of Penelope Douglas's books, but it's an interaction between Penelope and their husband, and then also the the male characters in the books. They were going to something called Sinners and Saints, which seems like it might be some sort of dark romance book festival gathering thing. And so the caption says, Me. What's this? Him. Your banners for Miami. Me. It looks like a gun case. Him. It is a gun case. Me. Ugh. Great. So the picture is of a gun case. Then, underneath this, all of her characters chime in. Jake. Hell yeah, that's what I'm talking about. Caleb, looks good to me. Noah, you want to carry it? Damon, can't you just ship it? I'm not carrying that. Maddox, ooh, it has wheels. Will, no one will fuck with you carrying that in the airport. Jax, actually, they might. Pike, tactical and practical. I like it. Jared, I bet she doesn't even know how to open it. Michael, just give it to me. I'll be waiting on my private plane for you. Tyler, I'm already in the south. She'll take my plane. Kai, fuck that. She's not travelling alone. He'll carry it or else. Misha, don't be so sure. The only thing Ryan lets me carry is her. Maken. Jesus, it feels like I have fifteen extra brothers and I still have to do everything. I'm already in Florida. Just send me the specs and I'll take care of it. Where are you staying? Uh, if only. What? What? They've created some sort of like reverse harem with all of the characters that they've written. How does your husband feel about this? What is going on?

Laura 1:16:28

Why are you writing this and putting it out in public? Oh, it's it's very that is very much giving the letter from Magnolia Parks in defense of Jessica Hastings. I mean, I really do understand the Caleb hate because if you'll allow me to dig into my category of Caleb should have stayed mute, etc. After he's miraculously learned to speak, at the very end of the book, and they go on their little family vacay, some of the things he says, it's like the world is better off not knowing. So I have very a very short selection of quotes. God, this girl loves tents. Fucking hell. Fuck, baby, I groan. I paw her tits, squeezing it and wanting it in my mouth. I never want to let you go, I breathe out. Not even to piss. Shut up, Caleb. Shut up, please. I hate him.

Bridget 1:17:23

I hate him so much. If I were to ever meet Uncle Jake, a question I would ask him is, did you actually like Tionan? Because it didn't really seem like he did. He hated what she represented through her family, he hated her father. Why did he take her in? Why did anything happen? All of these questions I could keep going. But like just the macho bullshit of like, I'm your daddy now. It just made me feel absolutely sick. Like how he was saying, I will let you know when someone is your type. Okay. What? Another time that I was quite confused was I think like the second day she was there and she was sulking around, and he said, You don't know us. You don't come here and disrespect my home.

Laura 1:18:15

Uh you invited her, babe. You invited her.

Bridget 1:18:18

This is your home. You belong here. Yeah. But what what? I mean, yeah, he is a fully fledged psychopath. Yeah. This is like quite soon after they've met. So she's still 17, and he says, Oh, TNN, it makes you wonder how she'd bend and move in someone's arms. Still 17. He asks her if she's ever had a man so inappropriate. And then also, like a few sentences after wondering about how she'll bend and move in someone's arms, he's like slamming her because he says, not to mention she's quiet, boring, and a little pathetic. Can't I can't torture someone who won't fight back? What's with all of this like mention to torture? Like, why is everybody always just like hurting people? Like, why are there scratches on the floor in Caleb's room? Was that ever explained? I was like, this can't be good. Do they want to ha why do they hate everyone? Why do they want to hurt everybody?

Laura 1:19:15

I think it's important to note as well that Uncle Jake's meant to be somewhere in the realm of 40. There is the point at the end of the book where it's where Noah reveals that Uncle Jake snuck a tracking app onto Tianan's phone. Yeah. Just and and it's just treated as a like, oh.

Bridget 1:19:32

Sounds so much like him. Something that I found quite infuriating was the inconsistency between the way he treated Tiananen, who was 17, and Noah, who was 20. He says about Noah on page 81, he's not going away. He's 20 fucking years old. He doesn't know what he wants or what he needs. But then on page 225, when Noah says to him, No, please, Daddy, come and get her and bring her back. We miss her. She's ours, after she's gone to her parents' funeral, he says to Noah, She's an adult. I can't tell her what to do. She's still 17. And I just don't understand why he thinks of the 17-year-old girl as a woman and as an adult, but his 20-year-old son as a child, who's not allowed to leave the peak and get a job and contribute to society and pay taxes and vote and you know, not lock women up in his room every night. Oh God.

Laura 1:20:34

There is a split second of grace at the end of the book where the boys rock up at Tiernan's place with Marie, and Marie says, You should be shot. And I was like, fist pumping the air. Hell yeah, that's what I've been saying this whole book. Bring out the guns, America. But then Jake says, It didn't happen like you think it happened. We were her home. We'd killed to protect her. That would not make me feel better. It would not make me feel better. No. But then clearly it eased her mind because next chapter, they're getting it on.

Bridget 1:21:10

Something else that made me feel really sick was every time they were like, Everyone will want you in the town. It's our time with you. You're ours. The hottest piece of ass is ours for the winter. We're gonna tab her for the whole winter. Hottest child on the mountain. Oh my god. And the photo shoot? What? What? That's something that's one of my random Sorry. If you haven't read the book, for some reason they they like do up these motorbikes and they like do customizations for motorbikes or some shit. And they seem to be always busy and they seem to be making quite a lot of money. But for some reason they need to do a photo shoot for marketing because Noah says at one point, we've been missing something pretty in our marketing.

Laura 1:22:00

But you get that sponsorship too.

Bridget 1:22:02

Yeah, that's true. So they hire photographers, they hire a hair and makeup artist, and the big day comes, and it's right after Caleb has been in town with TNN and like laying claim to her in the eyes of all the locals, and then they catch sight of his ex and she's pregnant. And so TNN freaks out, runs back to the house, but it's like photo shoot time. So she's got to look hot, but not too hot. Important to know pretty, not porno. Um, and then for some reason they're doing like a hot photo shoot on the back of a bike. I I'm imagining like a zoo magazine cover, circa 2003, like hot ass girl. Those like jean shorts that are like underwear-sized, and like a tube top sort of thing, and like she's like leaning forward, arching her back, and for some reason Noah's on the bike behind her. At any point, have we heard that he's hot? Like, why would he be in the photos?

Laura 1:23:00

He's like pressing into her and she's arching her back. And the photo shoot people are like, Yes, more sexy. Not too close though. He's her cousin. Unless something so funny about that as well is when the the town baddies rock up. I mean, we haven't. Why were they there? They were such a menacing presence, and I always pictured them like we're gonna get you, you mountain dwelling freaks. Come on, boys, let's go to the pond. And so they rock up. And oh, I can't like honestly, this whole section is such a frickin' mess because they're trying to like this is post-photo shoot, I think. They're trying to burn down the house, burn down the barn. Tienen's got her pink camo bow. The boys have gone. And Holcomb, what's his name? Terence? Terence Holcomb, I think. Terence Holcomb was there with one of his offsiders, and she's sort of being like, You're making a dumb choice, don't do this. Yeah. And his offsiders thinking, Yeah, maybe she's got a point. And Holcomb says, So what would you rather do? Join the army like your dad wants you to? Or you want to race? I'm getting us these spikes and a new sponsor, and I'm not leaving without him. So embarrassing.

Bridget 1:24:22

Something else that was really embarrassing was at the photo shoot when all the baddies came clicking, clicking, clicking their weight. And then Jake was like, This is a closed shoot. How does he know the lingo? I don't know. Shut up, Jake.

Laura 1:24:41

On top of her randomly becoming an expert huntress, it was another funny bit when they go out into the snow to go and get um the Phantom of the Opera. And a continuous says, It's 18 degrees, I tell Noah, exhaling inside my jacket to soak up the warmth. Actually, side note, um, that's not a good survival tip because when you breathe into your jacket or your sleeping bag, you create condensation, which actually makes you colder. Interesting. Um so dharmas, and then moving on, the rest of the quote says, I look up at the overcast sky. Those clouds are less than 6,000 feet. We gotta move. How does she know that? Also, what does that mean? She doesn't know.

Bridget 1:25:23

I love, I love how like the whole time they're there, Jake is saying to her, like, you gotta learn how to protect yourself. You gotta know if some if baby girl, if something happens to me or the boys, you gotta know how to protect yourself. And Noah has presumably been hearing this for his whole life, like he's 20. And so he would have had 20 years of survival tactics. And then the one night they go out to find Caleb, it's like a blizzard. Like all that knowledge. Let's roll. Let's go.

Laura 1:25:51

Let's go find your man. Another embarrassing quote comes from Noah. Tiernan says, Do you resent me? I whisper when he doesn't answer. He hoots his eyes. Whatever that means. A gentle smile curling.

Bridget 1:26:07

He just flips his eyelids. He flips his eyelids inside out. Check out this, Tiernan. He would have been that kid though.

Laura 1:26:18

For sure. Absolutely. He hoots his eyes, a gentle smile curling his lips. You were right, Tiernan, he says. I was in love, but with something else. Racing.

Bridget 1:26:31

Yeah. Remember that pop-up race? The only time I did it.

Laura 1:26:38

Oh my god, what a stupid book. I think we're pretty much at the point in the episode where we're just like tit for tat reading out the insane quotes that we compiled from this book. But a large chunk of my quotes are from that category baby brain. Did you also compile some of these?

Bridget 1:26:55

I just have two and they're all capitals.

Laura 1:26:59

Would you like to kick us off? Oh okay.

Bridget 1:27:04

Please. They're not very insightful. Just the first one says. And just keep in mind these are one page apart. Page 458 and then 459. Imagining the baby, what the fuck? The next one. Throwing out the birth control, what the fuck.

Laura 1:27:26

That's it. I think that pretty much summarised it. I could treat our listeners to some of the highlights. So in Caleb's chapter, he says he wants to love her, he wants to please her, he wants to trust her and see her holding his baby someday. That's also after saying, like, it doesn't matter who's inside her because she's a slut, like, she's worthless. It could be anyone. He hates her.

Bridget 1:27:47

She's like, the way she has nightmares. She's so pathetic and weak.

Laura 1:27:52

The rest of these, I think, these are Tianan's insanity. They could just as easily come under the she needs medicine category multiple types, I would argue. So Let's not be friends. Let's fight and laugh and make babies someday and go insane because I'm fucking in love with you. Oh my god. I think actually I'm I'm dialing in and it could be that it was Sydney Sweeney kind of Glenna. Oh my god. I don't know. Let it flow through. I've been possessed. I knew I should have gotten an implant. I've been taking my birth control. It's James Charles now. I've been taking my birth control, but it's not as effective as other methods. And being a teen mom is not where I want to be right now. Also, something weird was that she knew her pharmacist's number off by heart. Baby makes three and happily ever after. I'd love to have his child though. Someday. I'd love to be his forever and see him as a father. I only want his kids because I'm not sure I have him. That's a good reason, babe. That makes no sense. What does that mean? Well, she explains, thank God. Oh good. If I got pregnant, I wouldn't have to make any decisions because my fate would be sealed and I'd stay. No need to stress.

Bridget 1:29:06

Yeah. That's good. That's that's some real good shit right there. Just on that note, I think we have to really quickly talk about the absolutely ridiculous advice that the mother imparted on TNN. So lust, learn and love. My mother said the first boy or man is a crush. You think you love them, but what you really love is how they make you feel. It's not love, it's lust. Lust for attention, lust for danger, lust to feel special. You're needy with number one. Needy for someone to love you. The second is to learn about yourself. Your first crush has been crushed. You're sad, but most of all you're angry. Angry enough to not let it happen again. To not give yourself over so much this time. To not give up your power to be his booty call at midnight and they're waiting whenever he decides to show up. Like, can you imagine the mother being like, Tieron and honey, come and sit down. And I think so multiple times that they never speak to her.

Laura 1:30:04

This is the only thing she said. Mama got a message.

Bridget 1:30:09

Number two is when you finally learn what you're capable of. You start getting demanding, you grow bold, not afraid to start calling some shots. You're also not afraid to be greedier in the bedroom because it's about what you want and not what he wants. Number two is to be used in a way. Number three is love. When the lessons of your weakness with number one and your selfishness with number two sink in and you find a middle ground, when you know who you are and you're ready to welcome everything he is, and you're not afraid anymore. You still might not have a happy ending, but you'll engage in a healthy relationship and handle yourself in a way you're proud of. And this is the shit that made her say things like what you just said about the baby. The stupid one lesson she's ever gotten from her mother. Oh, she clung on to that. What the hell? Uncle Jake, one moment of sanity, he says, And you think your mother is the one to listen to? And she says, She was a failure as a mother, but nothing else. It's the only advice she ever gave me, actually. So I kind of hang on to it. Go to therapy, Tannin, please. Talk to like literally anyone else in the world, Tannan.

Laura 1:31:15

Oh my god. Everyone in her life has failed her, and she doesn't have the tools to not fail herself. It's sad to see, but what can you do? She gets so close multiple times as well. Like you she has these thoughts about like Caleb isn't good for me, he'll never leave this mountain. I need someone I can see the world with. She even has this quote where she says, So what did you think? I ask, still writing, I'd bed hop every night for the rest of my life, as if we weren't all completely insane. I was never gonna stay. What did he expect to happen? I'd marry one of them, live in the boonies and have all their babies, or maybe we'd just go back to being a family. Uncle, cousins, niece. I'd bring my husband here someday to meet them. The poor guy never knowing, I'd screwed everyone in this house. Almost. You just skipped some of that stuff. You just were like, well, that's too weird to deal with. I'll just I'll just stick with the cousin.

Bridget 1:32:06

Yeah.

Laura 1:32:06

I'll stick with the third one because that's what mum said.

Bridget 1:32:10

I really hated the writing in this book as well. Like, I think we can't I don't think we can finish the episode without talking about just like how earnest it was and how it was just saying so much of absolutely nothing. It's on page 331 and she's talking about Caleb. I think they were like taking branches off trees for some reason. I can't remember why. But she's talking, like reflecting on her love for Caleb. And she says, I was last but at peace, drifting. With Noah and Jake, I can see the future. I know what will happen. But with Caleb, there's nothing. I can't see the next five minutes because the feelings evolve. He changes me. I'm afraid I'll lose my foothold. I don't want to go back to being who I was. Scared, waiting, unsure. I don't want anyone to have so much power over my emotions again. He just stands there behind me, his warmth making the hair on the back of my neck rise, and I look down at his arms at my sides, feeling his hair drop into the back of mine. A lump stretches my throat. But I lean back into him all the same, a fire coursing through my blood. This is how he talks to me.

Laura 1:33:20

Whatever you want to tell yourself, babe.

Bridget 1:33:23

His hot breath hits the back of my hair as he slowly pulls my hat off, my hair fluttering across my face as I tense. Then he brings his arm down hard, knocking the twigs out of my hair. The twigs fall to the ground and I clench my fists, my blood racing. A tornado hits my stomach and I can't move. Shit. His hands trail down the arms of my black peacoat, his fingers tightening around me, and I only have a moment before he plants his hand on my back and shoves me.

Laura 1:34:04

What? Like I just read that out.

Bridget 1:34:06

What what does it mean? I don't know.

Laura 1:34:08

What does any of it mean?

Bridget 1:34:10

Oh, I hate this book. But there's just so many passages like that, like every 10 pages. And it's about someone new, something new. It's contradictory. Every single thing she says doesn't make any sense. And I just don't understand how you can write. How many pages is this? Let's just see. 538 pages of absolute tripe. And then think, yep, that's good to go. Publish. And then who enabled? Who enabled all of this? Is it independently published? No. Penguin. Penguin enabled this.

Laura 1:34:46

I'll see you in court, Penguin.

Bridget 1:34:49

I think we're nearly at the end of the episode because I mean, how many more times can we say it was so bad? But I do have one last little thing for you, Laura. And I like as we all know, you're an aspiring writer. You studied creative writing. One day you will write the great American novel.

Laura 1:35:06

Non-practicing, but I'm warming up.

Bridget 1:35:08

So I have some writing tips for you, courtesy of Penelope Douglas. Okay. This is on their website. The first one is look at your sales. My more controversial books happen to be my more successful books. People will say one thing to their friends and then turn around and buy the book to read it in secret. And hopefully they'll enjoy it and be a repeat reader. Your sales are the only true indication of how you're doing. If you're selling less than the previous book, then talk to your editors. Are they being straight with you? But if you're staying steady, or even better, more people like what you're doing than you're seeing. Keep doing it.

Laura 1:35:42

That's some twisted logic. Your sales are not really an indicator of No. I mean, it's not like that. It is. It's just the truth. That's not how that works.

Bridget 1:35:52

Because you and I both bought this book.

Laura 1:35:54

Yeah. I was actually thinking about this. It's a real problem of the podcast because I do like to have a copy. I'd like to buy them secondhand wherever possible because often they're books that I wouldn't pick up. This one I was particularly loath to buy new because I couldn't find a secondhand copy. I really hate to reinforce what they're saying there, but it doesn't mean. Trust me, Penelope. I may be but boosting your sales, but it doesn't mean what you think it means.

Bridget 1:36:21

But I feel like the main advice for like a beginning writer like yourself, a non-practicing writer, as you say, is don't just vomit words. Oh. Sorry to be blunt, but there it is. Some are obsessed with making a daily word count because they have to be done for their scheduled editor, which I completely understand. But for me, the writing would suffer. If I spit 10,000 words out in a day, none of it would be usable. Isn't that incredible? Makes you think what's been cut. Don't just vomit words. There's so many pages in this book. There's so many pages. There's so many words in this book. So do you feel inspired?

Laura 1:37:03

I you know what? I'm like, I really want to sit with that advice. I want to take the time to digest because I think it's a lot to kind of wrap my head around. But I do have this sort of innate sense of calm now that that's been passed on to me. So thank you. That's good. So the two things, just to recap, are look at your sales.

Bridget 1:37:23

Focus, I would say focus exclusively on sales and don't vomit words.

Laura 1:37:29

Yeah. Just make sure that you're only writing commercially viable fiction at whatever cost. Yes. Because that's all that matters. Not the craft, but the sales.

Bridget 1:37:39

And some kind of controversy would be good.

Laura 1:37:41

Yes. The more controversial the better. But also, um make it good. Thanks. Thanks. It's time to wrap it up. It's time to end the episode. Before we wrap things up, Bridget, is there anything nice that you think you could say about Credence by Penelope Douglas?

Bridget 1:38:00

I think that in my imagination, the view from her bedroom was quite nice.

Laura 1:38:07

How about you? I don't think it was the worst written book we've read. I think for me, maybe like the Spanish love deception, that's probably one of the main ones that jumped to mind. But I think I was less frequently looking at the words written on the page and going, what? It was more so based around character choices than the actual combinations of words put together.

Bridget 1:38:34

I would have loved to see my face while I was reading this book. I read quite a large portion of it on a flight from London to Singapore. And I think I have permanent wrinkles from my face from that flight. I'm looking.

Laura 1:38:51

I mean, everyone in my life was so sick of hearing about it. Oh, I'm sick of hearing about it. I'm sick of thinking about it. Well, let's wrap it up. Okay, favorite character, least favourite character. Let's start with the least favourite character.

Bridget 1:39:05

Okay. Jake?

Laura 1:39:07

Yeah.

Bridget 1:39:08

Pick any, but Jake?

Laura 1:39:10

Yeah. I think Uncle Jake is a good call.

Bridget 1:39:12

He had the most responsibility.

Laura 1:39:14

I mean, he invited her to that house.

Bridget 1:39:17

Everything that happened stemmed from him allowing it to happen.

Laura 1:39:20

Agreed. He's a villain. What about your most favourite? Now this is a hard question to ask, I know, but dig as deep as you need to.

Bridget 1:39:31

Maybe the the women that were at the Bachelorette party. Because I feel like they didn't know enough about the situation to do anything about it. How about you?

Laura 1:39:43

Uh I guess I don't know. I guess it's gotta be TNN. As dumb as she is, she is undeniably the victim here. Yes. She is a child, so she can't be blamed. No for really any of this. No, she can't. Everyone else in this story is an adult abusing or taking advantage of her or turning a blind eye to wrongdoings against her. So, you know, it's a grown-up choice to say TN and throw a rebone.

Bridget 1:40:12

And now, Laura, did you find credence by Penelope Douglas little shit?

Laura 1:40:17

I found it shit. It's like the kind of shit where you keep going back to the toilet and afterwards your legs feel shaky. Oh my god.

Bridget 1:40:27

Yeah. Yeah, I agree. It's gonna be a long time recovering from this. We're just gonna have to eat like beige foods.

Laura 1:40:39

Please.

Bridget 1:40:42

We hope this episode gave you credence. Our bonus chapter for August will be an interview with Australian author Nicole Crow, talking about her debut novel, The Washerp. Have your say on what we read next by keeping an eye on the link in our show notes and on our socials. Make sure you subscribe to the show, and if you want to be on the same page as us, follow us at talklit.gethit on Instagram and TikTok.