circe by madeline miller

before monsters learned their names, before heroes thought themselves immortal, there was a voice learning to speak. it's time for herstory, not history as we turn to Circe by Madeline Miller - a retelling and reimaging of Circe, the witch of The Odyssey - a story that promises to be absorbing, luminous and spellbinding – a feminist novel, ripe for the #metoo generation. we talk all about Greek mythology, our newly uncovered adoration for Madeline Miller, our previous podcast episode on the highs and lows (but mainly lows) of The Song of Achilles and ask ourselves the question, can the works of Madeline Miller be redeemed by Circe or are we fated to eternal literary woe? 

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Transcript

Bridget 0:40

Woman. Witch. Myth. Mortal. Outcast. Lover. Destroyer. Survivor. Cersei.

Laura 0:49

Think you go now. Hello and welcome to Talk Lit Get Hit. A podcast where we read viral books the internet won't shut up about and rate them lit or shit.

Bridget 1:00

We're your hosts Bridget and Laura, lovers of sad girl fiction and tragic endings, fearers of smart, urban fantasy, and the Who Did This To You trope.

Laura 1:08

Join us as we pick apart all the books the internet loves and embark on a journey to figure out why. Before monsters learned their names, before heroes thought themselves immortal, there was a voice learning to speak. It's time for her story, not history, as we turn to Cersei by Madeline Miller, a retelling and reimagining of Cersei, the Witch of the Odyssey, a story that promises to be absorbing, luminous, and spellbinding, a feminist novel ripe for the hashtag MeTooGeneration. As always, we'll see about that. Bridget, hello, hello. Hello, hello.

Bridget 1:43

I was re-listening to some of our past episodes this morning getting ready for the recording today. And I feel like we haven't said, we'll be the judge of that for a long time. So I'm glad I'm glad you've brought the energy back.

Laura 1:57

Yeah. Should I bring back cut the shit as well? Yeah, cut the shit. Well, actually, we can't cut too much shit because we thought we'd skip the monthly catch-up this time and head straight into a quiz about Greek mythology. This is something we failed to do for our Song of Achilles episode.

Bridget 2:13

Yeah. I think it would have been very telling at the time. The episode wouldn't have been that surprising. Do you think your knowledge of Greek mythology has improved since then? No, not at all. Okay. I think I've forgotten everything about Song of Achilles. I wiped it from my brain. I still know nothing, so we'll see.

Laura 2:31

So we actually found the most perfect quiz via BuzzFeed. It was posted on the 2nd of April. So that is one day ago for us at the time of recording. The name of this quiz is Most Americans Can't Pass This Embarrassingly Simple Greek Mythology Trivia Quiz, and it's kind of sad. We are not Americans, and we often do speak quite negatively about Americans. So there'll be a real chip on our shoulder if we don't do well.

Bridget 2:57

Yeah, this might be redemption for the Americans. I'm hoping that having read Cersei two times, I might be able to guess some of them. Fingers crossed, it won't brand me American. The very first question we have is who is the king of the Greek gods? And we have four choices. We have Poseidon, Zeus, Hades, and Apollo. Surely it's Zeus, right?

Laura 3:19

I think it's Zeus.

Bridget 3:20

Okay. Great. Okay. King of the gods. Number two, who is the god of the sea? Is it Zeus, Aries, Poseidon, or Hermes?

Laura 3:31

I think it's Poseidon.

Bridget 3:32

Yeah. Isn't that the dad in the Little Mermaid?

Laura 3:35

Well. No, that's Triton, right? Yeah. That's Triton.

Bridget 3:39

Okay. Yeah, Poseidon, great. Poseidon rules the seas. I love how you've got little catchphrases for each of them. I can't wait to see this continue. Number three, what weapon is Zeus known for using? Is it a sword, a lightning bolt, a trident, or a bow and arrow? Lightning bolt? I think you're right. Okay, great.

Laura 3:58

Zeus wields a lightning bolt. Now I have to keep going.

Bridget 4:02

Number four, who is the goddess of wisdom? Hera, Aphrodite, Athena, or Artemis? I'm out for this one, I think. Um, I'm gonna go Athena. I think it's Artemis. Oh my god, it's Athena! Oh, is Artemis the god of war, maybe? I don't know. Artemis is the god of foul.

Laura 4:21

The catchphrase just says Athena is the goddess of wisdom. Yeah, thanks.

Bridget 4:26

Number five, who is the god of war? Is it Ares, Apollo, Hephaes, He Hephaestus, Hephaestus or Dionysus? I think Ares. Yeah, I was thinking Ares. And again, Ares is the god of war. They're really losing their flair with these. They are. Number six, what is the home of the Greek gods called? Is it Valhalla, Asgard, Elysium, or Mount Olympus? Well, Valhalla is the Vikings, and they talk about Mount Olympus in Circe. I think Mount Olympus is the same.

unknown 4:58

Great.

Bridget 4:58

Yep. Number seven, who is the goddess of love and beauty? Is it Athena, Aphrodite, Hera, or Demeter? Surely Aphrodite. Yeah. Great. I think we can guess most of these. We've been doing well. Who is the hero in Greek mythology known for his incredible strength? Perseus, Odysseus, Achilles, or Heracles? Heracles? Yeah, I was thinking that too. Oh, great. And that's actually clarified something, because I I thought that Heracles and Hercules were two separate people, but apparently, same person here.

Laura 5:31

Heracles or Hercules was super strong.

Bridget 5:34

Thanks. Who is the god of the underworld? Is it Hades, Thanatos, Sharon? Sharon. Sharon. Or Sharon or Erebus? Ah, it's Hades. Hades. Yeah. Hades rules the underworld. Number 10. What creature has the body of a lion and the head of a human? Is it a minotaur? Centaur, Sphinx, or Harpy? Well, I don't think it's a Minotaur.

Laura 6:02

No, that's bull and something. As we learned. Yes. Centaur? Horse.

Bridget 6:06

Horse keep going.

Laura 6:08

Sphinx. Cat? Isn't a Sphinx a cat? Sphinx, isn't that ancient Egypt? I thought Harpy was like a water thing. I thought harpy was like a little promiscuous go. I'm loafing right now. Like, you know how the Sphinx? Oh, yeah. The lion is a cat.

Bridget 6:22

Yeah. Yeah. Sphinx. What did Theseus use to find his way out of the labyrinth? Was it a map, a ball of thread, breadcrumbs, or a compass?

Laura 6:32

Was this in Looking for Alaska?

Bridget 6:34

Oh my god.

Laura 6:35

How will we ever get out of this labyrinth of Greek mythology quiz? Labyrinth of piss.

Bridget 6:42

Um I mean a compass seems way too obvious. Breadcrumbs is Hansel and Gretel. A ball of thread? Yeah, I'm gonna go ball of thread. Surely not a map. Oh great. Okay. Is that in Cersei? I don't think so. It's a labyrinth, isn't it?

Laura 6:55

Who was the Greek hero, oh here we go, of the Trojan War, known for his near invulnerability? Hector! Odysseus, Achilles, or Ajax. Actually, I think it's Ajax. Yeah, I'm not really confident anymore because I thought they were all pretty main players. Surely it has to be Achilles. Let's go with that. But he has one vulnerability and it's his Achilles eel. Yes.

Bridget 7:16

What was the name of the ship Jason sailed on to find the golden fleece? Was it the Odyssey, the Argo, the Pegasus, or the Tririm? Trirem. Trireme? Keep going. I'm gonna pick the triremi.

Laura 7:34

I'm gonna pick the Argo. Oh, you're right! Oh you're a genius. Who was punished by having to roll a boulder up a hill for eternity? Tantalus, Sisyphus, Ixion, or Prometheus? Sisyphus. Yeah. Sisyphus pushes a boulder forever. Great. Nice.

Bridget 7:54

Wow. I got you scored better than 37% of all other quiz takers.

Laura 7:59

I'm being heralded as a mythology enthusiast. Are you? Yeah. Wow. Mine says you scored better than 50% of all other quiz takers. Not bad. It says, you've got a solid grasp on Greek mythology and you'd clearly know your way around Mount Olympus. You've probably read at least one book about Greek mythology. I mean, that's true. That is true. And it does say yes, Percy Jackson counts. And you've definitely encouraged friends to do the same. That's not true. Hats off to you.

Bridget 8:27

I think we've done the opposite of that. I think that's a great segue into talking about our theme of the month. Obviously, our theme of the month is retellings and reworkings. We have covered a few of these on the podcast already. A few of the ones that spring to mind are Bridget Jones's Diary, which is of course a retelling of Pride and Prejudice, The Favorites, which is a retelling of Wuthering Heights, and Twilight, which is also a retelling of Pride and Prejudice, among other things.

Laura 8:56

It is the source. It is the source.

Bridget 8:59

But I think we need to address the Elephant in the Room, The Song of Achilles. Most notably. Yeah. We first read this book in March of 2024 and we released an episode on it. It was, how can I say this? Not my favorite book. And it was not your favorite book.

Laura 9:20

No, but I really do think it's taken on a life of its own. Like I feel like I've kind of mythologized the reading experience of it because I didn't like it.

Bridget 9:28

No.

Laura 9:28

But I mean, it's so far from the worst book we've read.

Bridget 9:31

Oh, 100%.

Laura 9:32

Yeah. But in my head, it was an awful experience. It has a passionate fan base and has been a source of like constant ridicule on our show since then. So far we obviously the Song of Achilles is also a retelling and reimagining of the story of Achilles and Patroclus, his best friend slash lover. So the book we're reading this month on the show, Circe, picks up sort of where the Song of Achilles left off. We have many a fun nod to the characters we know and love. But I was wondering before we get too far into it, were you already familiar with the story of Circe?

Bridget 10:12

I forced myself to read The Odyssey a few years ago, but I didn't realise that this story overlapped with that one until she started turning men into pigs. Ah. And I was like, mm-hmm. And then Odysseus turned up and I was like, please, God, no, I can't do this again. Go away. Saying that, I didn't really remember anything other than her turning the men into the pigs and Odysseus staying on an island, one of many islands he's stayed on for a bit. Yeah, were you familiar with the story?

Laura 10:45

Only vaguely. I would say I have the loosest knowledge. Like the things with the pigs and the things with Odysseus rocking up and taking ten years to get home ring a bell, but I've never read anything about it or watched anything about it. So for the uninitiated, the commonly told story about Circe is something like this. So Circe was a goddess of Greek mythology. Her father was the sun god Helios, and her mother was, depending on the source, either a niad or the goddess of magic, Hecate. And I've never said that before. She is rarely described as a goddess, though. Most people think of Circe as a sorceress, a witch, or even a temptress. That one crops up particularly from the perspectives of men. She is most famous for her role in the epic story of Odysseus. She initially seemed like a threat to the lives of his crew, but she became one of the men's greatest benefactors. Without Circe's assistance, it is doubtful whether Odysseus would have survived his treacherous journey at all. And I just want to say that I completely ripped that blurb from the article Cersei, the famous sorceress of Greek legend, from mythology source. So I'll pop up a link in the show notes. So, Bridget, I think you were probably the most vocal hater amongst us of The Song of Achilles. And therefore I would particularly love to know how you're feeling heading into reading Cersei by Madeline Miller.

Bridget 11:58

I felt nothing but intrepidation. I had a really bad time reading The Song of Achilles. I guess I was a tiny bit hopeful that my recent trend of liking things I've previously hated, a bug's life, The Catcher and the Rye.

Laura 12:15

Yeah.

Bridget 12:16

Would pop up again with this book. So I was like, please, please let me like it.

Laura 12:21

Uh how about you? Yeah, I was curious in spite of it all. I think based off my experience reading Achilles, I wasn't excited, but for some reason I do own a copy, and I have repeatedly been adding it to my TBR pile. So I can't really explain why or the drawer it had on me. But something has been compelling me to read this book. So an element of mystery, if you will.

Bridget 12:46

Be warned and take heed that in these next conversations you will most certainly be privy to spoilers, observances, and all manner of expulsions and interpretations related to the text Cersei as penned by Madeline Miller. If you would like to keep this knowledge secret and safe, pause the episode, subscribe to the show, and come back when you're finished reading.

Laura 13:05

A content warning for the episode: Cersei contains mature themes including rape, familial abuse, and violence and death.

Bridget 13:12

Woman.

Laura 13:19

In the house of Helios, god of the sun and mightiest of the titans, a daughter is born.

Bridget 13:24

Cersei is a strange child, not powerful and terrible like her father, nor gorgeous and mercenary like her mother. Scorned and rejected, Cersei grows up in the shadows, at home in neither the world of gods or mortals. But Cersei has a dark power of her own, witchcraft.

Laura 13:40

When her gift threatens the gods, she is banished to the island of Aea, where she hones her occult craft, casting spells, gathering strange herbs, and taming wild beasts.

Bridget 13:50

Yet a woman who stands alone will never be left in peace for long. And among her island's guests is an unexpected visitor, the mortal Edessius, for whom Cersei will risk everything.

Laura 14:02

So Cersei sets forth her tale, a vivid, mesmerizing epic of family rivalry, love and loss, the defiant, inextinguishable song of a woman burning hot and bright through the darkness of a man's world. Okay, Bridget, I feel genuinely a little bit scared to ask, but having read Cersei by Madeline Miller, how are you feeling?

Bridget 14:24

Hmm. Unfortunately, this book did next to nothing for me. When I finished it, my main thought was, well, this isn't for me because I know nothing about it. But in the week since I finished it, that opinion has like morphed into a little bit more anger. And it's like, shouldn't this book be a gateway for me? Shouldn't this be something that is pulling me and wanting to teach me about the world of Greek mythology? It's pushing me away. I fully acknowledge I'm coming into it with like a deep bias and like hatred for myths and epics. There was just nothing for me to like grasp onto. I think the last third of the book was more interesting, but I can't even tell you how bored I was for the majority of the book. Like I would read a page and just be like, when is this gonna end? I would also like to say that I'm disappointed because I've been watching a lot of interviews with Madeline Miller, and she seems so articulate and intelligent, thoughtful, like funny, exactly who I want to be when I grow up. And it's just I it just it's not for me. And that's okay. That's so beautiful. I want to like it, I just can't. That's you know, so sorry. How do you feel about it? I actually really liked this book. That's good. I thought you would. Yeah, it's better, it's better than Song of Achilles.

Laura 15:51

It's so much better, and I would say I actually had like the opposite reading experience of the Song of Achilles because when I first started reading Cersei, I was like, oh, I had like a bones deep exhaustion, like it's it took so much for me to get into it. Start was rough, yeah, and she's banging on about like eels, and there's so much flowery language, and I thought, oh god, it's all the things I really didn't like about Achilles. Like, I thought it was just gonna be more sort of self-congratulatory purple prose.

Bridget 16:26

Yeah.

Laura 16:26

And I was so close to messaging you to say, spoiler alert, we're in for a repeat with Cersei, because I'd started reading it and you hadn't. But I remembered reading Achilles and messaging you to say, it's actually kind of good. I think you're gonna be surprised, and then going on and being like, oh no, shit, it sucks. Yeah. And so I held off. I did find the first quarter quite slow. I think that's a theme across a lot of the reviews that I've seen. But then suddenly I found myself quite swept up by it. Like I just felt that I was in a bit of a meditation or like some sort of like spell recast. Yeah. Yeah. And it was just, it just clicked. I don't think this book was good enough for me to give Achilles a second chance because I've been thinking long and hard about this. I think it's the nature of this story, it's the tone, it's the protagonist that won me over. But I liked it all the same.

Bridget 17:18

I think when she got to the island, things really picked up.

Laura 17:22

Yes.

Bridget 17:22

I don't like reading about other gods or the other people in her family. But I think when she got on her own, I that's when it sort of started to pick up for me. But the start was so boring.

Laura 17:35

I completely agree because I think what I liked about this book wasn't so much that Greek mythology aspect, although I will admit I probably like that more than you. Actually, it's not that hard to like that more than you. I do like it more than you, but I still find it pretty like like it's weird shit happening. I don't really care to hear about someone fucking a cow. No, different strokes, different folks. I draw the line of credence, okay. Yeah. But what I liked about this story was kind of like the commentary on like women's work. And those were the most like rewarding, kind of engaging passages for me. So it's not really anything to do with Greek mythology, but it's like how Madeline Miller's beautiful writing works with that kind of commentary.

Bridget 18:20

The times where I could take it away from what it actually is were the best parts for me. I would love to read a book about a witch on an island just going into the woods and picking herbs and like trying to think like what is my purpose in life? What am I doing here? It was when it came back to the gods and prophecies and all of these things that was where it fell flat for me.

Laura 18:44

Let's get further into it. You mentioned before that you had watched or read some interviews with Madeline Miller, and I feel like we didn't talk about her that much in our Song of Achilles episode, and she's really interesting. Would you care to share what you learned?

Bridget 18:57

The main thing that really endeared her to me was just her love for these stories that she's retelling. I think it's a really admirable thing to love something so much that you want to, I don't know, put your spin on it and sort of represent these characters that might have been underrepresented or misrepresented in the past. So she actually said in the interviews that she was first introduced to the works of Homer as a five-year-old. Well. Her mother. There's no hope for us. Her mother would actually read them to her as a bedtime story. Wow. And when she was 13, I think she first read either the Iliad or the Odyssey, I can't quite remember which one. And then in high school, she had a teacher that was very passionate about this, and he taught her to read ancient Greek. So she was able to read the texts in their original language, and she said that was just mind-blowing. It's been the passion of her life, and she was able to read it as a source, and that was very impressive. She went to university and she continued to study classical texts. She's been a high school teacher of Latin, Greek, and Shakespeare for over 15 years. And she also said that she wrote The Song of Achilles over a period of 10 years, and it was a secret project. She didn't really want to put it out there that she was writing this retelling of the Iliad or of these classics because she was afraid of the backlash in the classics community. But she said that when she finally told her mentor she had the finished book in her hands and said, I've rewritten this story. And he said to her, Please tell me you made them gay. Ah. So she was like, Oh thank God. Yeah. She doesn't teach full-time anymore. I think she is writing full-time now. She said that maybe her next project will be a retelling of The Tempest. When she was in college, one of her friends asked if she was interested in directing a Shakespeare play, and she did that and fell in love with directing, and she fell in love with Shakespeare.

Laura 20:52

So that would be very interesting. I'd like to read that. I think I'd like that more. So Cersei was her second novel published in 2019, and it was an instant number one New York Times bestseller. It also won the Indie Choice Best Adult Fiction of the Year Award and the Indie's Choice Best Audiobook of the Year Award. Did you listen to any of the audiobooks? Yeah, I read it and I listened. Yeah, I really liked that audiobook as well. Yes. Perdita Weeks was the narrator there, and I think she did an excellent job. On her website and across the internet, it does also say that Cersei is being adapted for a series with HBO Max, but I couldn't really find anything else about that, and what I could find was pretty outdated, so I get the sense it's not really going anywhere.

Bridget 21:32

She also made reference in one of the interviews I watched of Achilles being adapted.

Laura 21:37

Well, I mean, this is just so ridiculous because I watched like two episodes of Heated Rivalry and I didn't really like The Song of Achilles, but I have to say I've been seeing a lot of people fan casting the one with the curly blonde hair, Connor's story, as Achilles. I just think he's so beautiful and he has such an interesting face, and that could get me excited about it. That's how great he is. I was kind of intrigued to learn that this book was published in 2019 because I think a lot of the marketing around it as like feminist, epic, telling her story, not his story. For the Me Too generation type language was really um reminiscent of like 2016 or an earlier era. Not that there's anything wrong with being feminist, but I do tend to find those kinds of buzzwords pretty off putting on a book because I I feel like in the past when I've taken a leap of faith on books marketed in that vein, they've been pretty surface level and pretty disappointing.

Bridget 22:37

It just never seems to hit as hard as it says it's gonna hit. Like it's always some pretty basic take. Like women should have rights.

Laura 22:45

I mean, think about some of the other podcast books we've read that have been marketed as feminist novels, like romantic comedy.

Bridget 22:53

Oh yes. Yeah, like taken back, what's hers? Ugly woman, Date's Heart Man. Um They're in a covert bubble together and her stepdad shits himself. Yeah, I just think they never like hit and they they never really m reached the expectations that I have for them. When I was watching the interviews with Madeline Miller, it was obviously around the time when the abortion bans first started really kicking in in America or they were being spoken about, you know, going through the courts or whatever. And it was at the end of Donald Trump's first presidency. And she spoke so eloquently about all of these things. Like the interviewer was, I feel like he was trying to get it like gotcha moments and trying trying to trip her up. She was too smart, he couldn't do it. The way she linked the feminism in the book with real life happenings at the time, it was really, really interesting, and it made me appreciate the book more.

Laura 23:48

There was a really great quote from Madeline Miller in an interview, The World History Encyclopedia by James Blake. William Blake. By James Blake Wiener. Weiner There's a really nice quote from Madeline Miller. Change your name for God's sake. Just do James Blake. There's a quote I liked from Madeline Miller in an interview with James Blake Wiener for I can't do it. Maybe I'll just say okay, I'll say something different. I can't get a real ridiculous. Grow up, get a real name. There's a quote from Madeline Miller that I liked from an interview in World History Encyclopedia. It's linked in the show notes. But in it she says, In the Odyssey, Cersei is very clearly the incarnation of male anxiety about female power. The word which is still used today as a slur against women with an amount of power that makes society nervous. I'm always interested in people that others are actively trying to keep quiet. And I think that quote, particularly the last bit, highlights something that I did really enjoy in this book. It's that asking why. It's like basic gaps and silences. Yeah. She's turning men into pigs, don't you think we want to know why?

Bridget 25:11

Yes.

Laura 25:11

And when you look at the story from Cersei's perspective, there's an extremely justifiable reason for that to occur. And the reason provided by the book is that the men were coming to her island, her place of sanctuary, her home, and raping her. Those passages in the book weren't gratuitous but still pretty difficult to read. I might read out a couple, so if you're sensitive to this kind of thing, skip ahead maybe like a minute or two. The first and I think only time that she is raped by one of these characters is when a shipful of men arrive on the island, she welcomes them in, gives them food, wine, shelter, and then they start questioning who they should thank for the hospitality. And when they realize there is no man, the dynamic quickly shifts. In the moment Cersei says, A mortal would have fainted, but I was awake for every moment. At last I felt the man tremble and his arm loosened. My throat was crushed inward like a rotted log. I could not seem to move. A drop of sweat fell from his hair onto my bare chest and began to slide. I became aware of his men speaking behind him. Is she dead? One of them was saying. She better not be dead. It's my turn. A face loomed over the captain's shoulders. Her eyes are open. And as horrible as that is to read, I think you have to illustrate that point to show the push. And so in the next section she says, I did not send my animals away anymore when men came. I let them lull where they liked around the garden, under my tables. It pleased me to see the men walk among them, trembling at their teeth and unnatural tameness. I did not pretend to be immortal. I showed my laminant yellow eyes at every turn. None of it made a difference. I was alone and a woman, and that was all that mattered.

Bridget 26:48

I heard her speak about her time in university, and she said that when they were studying these classic books, often there are rapes happening in the stories. And she said that she was often the only woman in the room, and the way that the other men in the room just skipped over them happening was quite astounding to her. And so she said that when it came to writing these stories from a woman's perspective, that she wanted to make it clear that that's what was happening. Kind of like look it in the eye. Yeah. And like represent things as they were, allowing that woman's story to be heard.

Laura 27:23

Yeah, like the bald, ugly truth of what it means to be a woman in that world. I think also it was important for her to illustrate what was happening to Cersei because it's an inversion of the traditional depictions of Cersei, which are exclusively told from a male perspective. She's the scorned woman, she's enraged, she's jealous, she's attempteress or seductive, she's angry, she's a witch. I mean, I know it's Greek mythology, but no one is ever just one thing for no reason. I think also this story does a good job of showing the gradual sort of galvanizing of this character. Like she's so soft and so meek at the start of the book. We see highlighted the kind of discrepancy between the way that men and women are treated in this novel. For example, her brother is like given a kingdom and praise for the same talents that she's punished and banished to the island for. And obviously, there's a lot of historic context there. But looking at this story in a modern context means that we can highlight these things.

Bridget 28:25

She said that in going back to the text, she felt as though she was allowing the silenced voices, whether it be the voices of women, the voices of slaves, the secondary characters, the queer characters, in the case of Patroclus and Achilles, she felt as though she was allowing their voices and their stories to be heard. And I thought that was really interesting because, you know, we hear a lot about the war and we hear all about the gods' kingdoms and how they are like havens for people and how the war was so successful and they were able to do this and they were able to do this. How are they able to do this? Like on the backs of slaves and on the backs of women. I still think that's a very relevant conversation to be having in modern day as well. Like if we consider the mental load that women in families still have, like the the responsibilities of who's feeding the children, who's clothing the children, who's organizing their appointments, who's organizing them getting to school and their extracurricular activities and all of these things. Like, even though it's a very different time and a very different context, we're still having those conversations, and like even just a few hundred years ago, countries were built on the backs of slaves. And that still hasn't really been addressed.

Laura 29:38

I think what you were saying about these great events or moments of history being built off the back of women or slaves is sort of something that I enjoyed about this book as well, because I think there is a real focus on quote-unquote women's work in this book and a focus on not letting it seem less than, showing that it is and treating it as work. What I'm mainly thinking of here is the depictions of witchcraft or sorcery and showing it as like a practice and a honed skill rather than something that just happens. I think that's a thing I really didn't like about Achilles was just stuff was just happening and it was faded by the gods. And that happens in this story, and those are parts that I didn't really like about this story. Um, but there are some really nice quotes when Cersei gets to the island and starts practicing and collecting her herbs and drying them out. One says, Little by little I began to listen better to the sap moving in the plants, to the blood in my veins. I learned to understand my own intention, to prune and to add, to feel where the power gathered and speak the right words to draw it to its height. That was the moment I lived for, when it all came clear at last and the spell could sing with its pure note for me and me alone. Another quote said, Let me say what sorcery is not. It is not divine power which comes through a thought and a blink. It must be made and worked, planned and searched out, dug up, dried, chopped and ground, cooked, spoken over, and sung. Even after all that, it can fail as gods do not.

Bridget 31:08

I really enjoyed the depictions of women's work as well, and it reminded me of something that I saw when I went to Sydney. I went to the Hyde Park Barracks, which is a convict era building that has housed convicts and migrants and institutionalized women for around 200 years before it closed. There was a whole room though dedicated to female Irish immigrants who came to Australia in the 1840s as a result of the Great Famine. And there was another room dedicated to the institutionalised women as well. But they have artifacts from these women, like they have items of clothing and jewelry and like needlework and embroidery and sewing and like tokens from home. It was really nice to see these feminine items displayed because the rest of the museum is like, here is where the convicts I don't know why I'm using that voice, it's in Australia. Here's where the convicts ate their dinner. And they they would gamble and they would have one cup of beer a night and whatever. But like there were stories of the friendship between the women and how they looked after each other and they wrote letters home and they had their like sweetheart tokens and all of this stuff. And it was really lovely. Whenever I travel, I like to go to these historical places and museums, and I think it's really sad that I can't remember before now seeing a female focused exhibition or women-led history in one of these places.

Laura 32:26

That's so true.

Bridget 32:26

I think like a refrain I often hear from like men's rights activists or like far-right people is if we let the feminists take over, then we'll all be doing this and having to do this, blah blah blah, without realizing that feminism actually brings up everybody in society, not just the women. Because, you know, as we know, it's not about having females be more powerful or having more rights, just about having equality. And Madeline Miller said she really liked writing about Odysseus's son, who found it very difficult to be the son of Odysseus because he wasn't that traditional bronze age hero who wanted the glory and the power and he just wants something else. The society at that time, and at this time, although you know the women make up maybe 50% of the population, it's not actually 50% that a patriarchal society is inhibiting. It's more than 50%. I mean, spoiler alert, I think he was my favourite character in the book. I liked how he knew himself and he didn't want to go in the way of his father, and he just wanted to carve out a little nice life for himself.

Laura 33:30

I really liked his character too, and I think his character and obviously the character of Cersei had great themes of sort of like self-fulfillment and self-discovery. And particularly with Cersei, obviously, because she's the narrator. There's lots of great quotes that I thought really resonated with the female experience today as well. It got me thinking of the we was girls together kind of quote, and then I was getting all emotional. But there was one where she said, but there was no wound she could give me that I had not already given myself, and that came on the back of her mom or one of her, you know, sisters or whatever speaking unkindly about her. And it really reminded me of a quote from the show Girls where the protagonist Hannah Horvath says, Any mean things someone's gonna think to say about me, I've already said to me about me, probably in the last half hour. It's like, wow, we really all are the same. Yeah. I have a couple of other quotes to read out about courage or boldness or sort of existing in the world. The first is, I had a wild thought there beneath that sky. I will eat these herbs. Then whatever is truly in me, let it be out at last. I brought them to my mouth, but my courage failed. What was I truly? In the end, I could not bear to know. Another says, It is funny, she said, that even after all this time you still believe you should be rewarded. Just because you have been obedient. I thought you would have learned that lesson in our father's halls. None shrank and simpered as you did, and yet great Helios stepped on you all the faster because you were already crouched at his feet. And then a very nice passage when she finally arrives at the island says, That is what exile meant. No one was coming, no one ever would. There was fear in that knowledge, but after my long night of terrors it felt small and inconsequential. The worst of my cowardice had been sweated out. In its place was a giddy spark. I would not be like a bird bred in a cage, I thought. Too dull to even fly when the door stands open. I stepped into those woods and my life began. There's a couple of things about the ending of this book I wanted to discuss with you. So, towards the end of the book, Penelope and Telemachus rock up at Aea to hang out with Telegyonus and Circe. And by the end of this experience, Cerse and Telemachus are an item. Hardest it couple. Ithaca's hardest couple. Look, this is a little bit unusual because Telemachus is Edessius's son. Odessius is her former lover and the father of Telegenus. It gets a little murky there. Yeah. How did you feel about that?

Bridget 36:06

I felt a bit weird about it, but I did like it. Same.

Laura 36:12

I don't know.

Bridget 36:15

Yeah, I really liked him as a character, and I think that he was who she was searching for. Someone who got her and just was just content to be together.

Laura 36:23

Yeah, I liked that too. And I think this is something I was grappling with a little bit throughout the book because I was like, you know, is it a feminist novel? Because there are all of these men coming in, and she's just like hooking up with Apollo, and then she's hooking up with Odysseus. Not to say that you can't be a feminist and hook up. I was going back and forth, but I think I ended up feeling that the men sort of came in and out of the story, but they weren't central to the story. Although they had impact and like a purpose, they were kind of like a plot device that sort of furthered her understanding of herself or her place in the world. However, by the time she got together with Telemachus, it kind of felt like she could just be. She clearly thinks she has a good deal going on too because she decides to turn mortal for him. Yeah.

Bridget 37:10

And I was comparing this to Cemetery Boys, because I remember at the end of Cemetery Boys, there was a time where Gadriel was going to either sacrifice himself or sacrifice his magic to keep baby boy Julian alive or to bring him back from the dead or whatever was happening in that book. And we were at the time saying, like, don't do that. You've known each other for three days. This is a very different situation, I think. She has been alive for seemingly forever. She's had enough. I think it was the right choice. I think it was sweet. I think it's a great, I don't know, show of her love and like her humanity, maybe to just want to die as a human. I think there were a lot of passages in Bury Our Bones in the Midnight Soil last month's podcast book that really fit very well in this story. And just a lot of what is human life and what does death mean and what is the purpose of life. And I think that her decision to become mortal so she can age and her body can have marks and scars and she can die with the person that she loves. It was beautiful.

Laura 38:19

Yeah, I had that note too. I've definitely never been one to try to attempt a companion read before, but I thought these two were so comparable in themes and tone. Um, we even get an Odessius mention in Bury Our Bones in the Midnight Soil. I was pretty satisfied with that. And then there is a really beautiful quote at the end of the book where she says, I wake sometimes in the dark, terrified by my life's precariousness, its thready breath. Beside me my husband's pulse beats at his throat. In their beds my children's skin shows every faintest scratch. A breeze would blow them over, and the world is filled with more than breezes. Diseases and disasters, monsters and pain in a thousand variations. I do not forget either my father and his kind hanging over us, bright and sharp as swords aimed at our tearing flesh. If they do not fall on us in spite and malice, then they will fall by accident or whim. My breath fights in my throat. How can I live on beneath such a burden of doom? I rise then and go to my herbs. I create something, I transform something. My witchcraft is strong as ever, stronger. This too is good fortune. How many have had such power and leisure and defence as I do? Telemachus comes from our bed to find me. He sits with me in the green smelling darkness, holding my hand. Our faces are both lined now, marked with our years. Cersei he says, It will be all right. It is not the saying of an oracle or a prophet. They are words you might speak to a child. I have heard him say them to our daughters when he rocked them back to sleep from a nightmare, when he dressed their small cuts, soothed whatever stung. His skin is familiar as my own beneath my fingers. I listen to his breath, warm upon the night air, and somehow I am comforted. He does not mean it does not hurt. He does not mean we are not frightened. Only that we are here. This is what it means to swim in the tide, to walk the earth and feel it touch your feet. This is what it means to be alive. Very nice summation of the book.

Bridget 40:14

Yeah.

Laura 40:14

I have a question for you. Yes, Prometheus. Scale of one to ten. How cut would you be if your mum gave birth to you and then went and popped out some siblings and turned mortal for them so she could live a normal life with them?

Bridget 40:34

I mean, to be fair to whatever his name is, I don't think he gave a shit. I don't think he even knew. I think he was like, peace.

Laura 40:43

I yan to explore the high seas, mama. Bye, mama. Think of me fondly. That's true.

Bridget 40:52

I would be pissed 10 out of 10.

Laura 40:55

Same. Another failing of men. We need to hold more crutches.

Bridget 41:02

It also would have been so funny if when she was like, hey, I want to be mortal now. Once the spell was finished, if she turned mortal, but like she turned into the body of like a 4,000-year-old woman.

Laura 41:18

You never know. That would be insane. What's your true self?

Bridget 41:21

Yeah.

Laura 41:21

Yeah. True. Withered crone. Something that I was really confused of as I read this was that I think, and I could be wrong, that Cersei pops up quite frequently on like queer reading lists.

unknown 41:35

Why?

Laura 41:36

Why? Why? Why? Because I thought, like, I guess there's an aspect here where we could read this through a queer lens. Like it's sort of a little bit found family. Uh, she has an unconventional attitude towards men and relationships and motherhood for the time. But really, it's a pretty heteronormative story, especially in the way that it wraps up.

Bridget 42:00

I think at one point somebody says to her, Why don't you lay with the nymphs? And she's like, Nah. Yeah. Like she's not even tempted. Not Kane. Thank you. It's very strange because as we talked about in our Song of Achilles episode, I thought the Song of Achilles was about lesbians. And then you said, Were you thinking of Cersei? And then I was like, Yeah, maybe I was thinking of Cersei. But this isn't about lesbians either.

Laura 42:23

Did we make this up? Maybe no one's been saying that.

Bridget 42:25

No, I think I've seen it as on lists as well.

Laura 42:28

I'm sure we've put it in a voting or it's come up in like a question book before. Yeah. For like your favorite queer literature. It's very strange. It's time for most and least favorite characters, and I would really like to give you an opportunity to let rip. If there's anything you feel you've been holding back this episode.

Bridget 42:47

No, because you know what? I've been flicking through my book and I'm looking at the notes I have made in the last half of the book. And there are some beautiful passages in the last half. Unfortunately, the start was so boring that it has clouded my judgment of the whole book. And I can't forget that. I can't forget how bored I was. And we shouldn't. I had to give myself treats at the end of each chapter. I was like, I'm gonna give myself some TikTok time because I hate this book so much.

Laura 43:14

Hated it so much, you downloaded TikTok again.

Bridget 43:17

Yeah. And I was looking on Instagram, I was playing a game on my phone. I had to pace myself because I hated the start so much. But the last half of the book I really enjoyed. Look like looking at beautiful passages about her son and about motherhood and just descriptions of like how she picked herself up and she just kept going and she went into the woods and all of these things. Lovely. I just wish that it was half the size of what it was. So yeah, that's all I've got to say, I think. I can't remember what the question was.

Laura 43:50

Um I didn't really ask one, I just gave you free license to go.

Bridget 43:55

Yeah, I don't think I got that in the Song of Achilles one.

Laura 43:58

I think I was muzzled. Were you silent or were you silenced? I think I was silenced. Okay, that's great to hear then. So to cut the episode. I'm really pleased to hear that. I always want you to be honest with me. Who is your most favorite character?

Bridget 44:19

Well, it is the man whose name I've refused to say, but maybe I should give it a go. Come on, try it, give it a go. Telemachus. Is that right? I've been saying Telemachus. Telemachus, that sounds more right. My favorite character is Telemachus. I liked his steadfast view of what he wanted his life to be. Be. Also funny how they were like, don't defy the gods, you'll regret it. But every time someone did, they were like, Cool, whatever. Yeah. Like, we'll send you to a sick island. Cool, I'll just ask your half-brother. Yeah. It's really not that big a deal.

Laura 44:55

One of my problems with this book was like every time an inconvenience where the gods did rock up, she was like, I knew what I had to do. Yeah.

Bridget 45:03

I ran to the top of the mountain. I was imagining like Moana, like when she runs up to the top.

Laura 45:08

Don't bring that up. I'll burst into tears.

Bridget 45:11

Who is your favourite character?

Laura 45:13

Mine was probably Cersei. I thought she gave life her all. She didn't back down. She didn't say what. What?

Bridget 45:24

You know, actually, second favourite for me is a tie between Cersei's and her sister. Cersei's sister. I actually really liked her. I think she was funny. Obviously, a horrible, horrible witch, but sometimes she was funny. Yeah, and she knew what was up. She did. And she also knew that things were bad. She was just getting by. How about your least favourite character? I think her dad was boring and mean. I didn't really understand his motivations. I think that is my problem with the gods. I don't understand what they're getting from any interaction they have. They seem to change their mind on a whim. And I don't like that. I like to understand people's motivations.

Laura 46:07

How about you? Oh, I mean, take your pick of anyone in her family. Her mother was horrible, her father was horrible, her brother was horrible, possibly like the biggest betrayal as well, because he seemed to be such an ally to her cause.

Bridget 46:20

Yeah, I wasn't sure like when the switch happened. I didn't really get what was going on.

Laura 46:24

I missed that too. Okay, then. So the final question, Bridget, do you rate Cersei by Madeline Miller lit or shit?

Bridget 46:32

I really don't know. Listening to Madeline Miller talk and explain her book has really, I don't know, lifted the book in my opinion. And also the last half of the book was better than the first half. So I might show some character growth and say lit.

Laura 46:49

How about you? You can retract it in our end-of-year wrap-up videos. Um, I would rate this lit. Like I said at the start of the episode, it hasn't inspired me to reassess my opinion of the Song of Achilles. But I would recommend this book to people. I think there's a lot that a variety of people would enjoy in this book. I'm shocked that I found joy in it, but I'm glad that I did.

Bridget 47:12

So I guess when we do that BuzzFeed quiz again, it can be true that we have read at least one book and we have told other people to read at least one book. Yes. Good job. Spread the word. Spread the word. For our bonus chapter this month, we are revisiting the world of Curtis Sittenfeld and revisiting the world of Pride and Prejudice by reading Eligible by Curtis Sittenfeld. Have your say on what we read next by heading to the link in our show notes and on our socials. Make sure you subscribe to the show, and if you want to be on the same page as us, follow us at talklit.gethit on Instagram and TikTok.