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Blue Grit Podcast: The Voice of Texas Law Enforcement
2024: Ranked #1 Law Podcast
Host: Tyler Owen and Clint McNear discussing topics, issues, and stories within the law enforcement community. TMPA is the voice of Texas Law Enforcement, focused on protecting those who serve. Since 1950, we have been defending the rights and interests of Texas Peace Officers by providing the best legal assistance in the country, effective lobbying at state and local levels, affordable training, and exemplary member support. As the largest law enforcement association in Texas, TMPA is proud to represent 33,000 local, county and state law enforcement officers.
Blue Grit Podcast: The Voice of Texas Law Enforcement
#037- “In The Eyes of a Ranger” Part 2
Part 2 of Retired Texas Ranger John Vance!
email us at- bluegrit@tmpa.org
On the last episode of BlueGrip Podcast in the eyes of a ranger Park One.
Speaker 2:When I walked in to interview for the position of a deputy, I told him. I said hey, I said you got me until I graduate. Once I graduate, this is my goal. This is what I want to do. I knew that I wanted to go to DPS because eventually I wanted to go to the rangers. That was the whole purpose for DPS. Find the thing that you love to do and you'll never work a day in your life. That's true. I was told real quick. He said find a solid investigator, I don't care what agency he's with. Find a solid one, that man that loves to work and wants to, has a burning desire to solve the crime. Find that guy and work with him. We're going to send you to more schools and you'll ever possibly imagine going to, but starting off, work hard with that guy and that's what it is. There were several guys, but Lewis was one of them.
Speaker 3:That's awesome. So when you get a phone call one day and you're a patrol sergeant in Marshall and they call and tell you you're a ranger, how quick do you spin up? How quick do you move the family how? What does that look like? Is that a 10,? You got 10 days to be in.
Speaker 2:Well, two things. One, the rangers were very great gracious about look, you start January one. We don't expect you to be in the office January one, but you had that phone. You know, whenever you get here, you get here, you know which. They didn't give me a timeframe. So you know, if you don't give me a timeframe, I'm coming tomorrow. You know, because I don't know what you know. And again, I was still under the the highway patrol mentality of scheduling and you know when to work, when not to work, and that was kind of my first introduction to a year, you know yeah grow man, take care of your own business, call me if you need me, you know, type of thing.
Speaker 2:But we made the move. We were, I was there, I was kind of back and forth for about a month and then after that we were able to move the family. We were able to get there Two things one, the when I started with DPS, I had to buy my socks, t-shirt, underwear and black boots, everything else. Everything else was provided. You know, I make Ranger and they hand me the coveted Cinco Peso badge, you know. And then they hand me a CIG 357, which is a DPS issued weapon at that time, and they go oh, by the way, we don't carry the CIG 357. Yeah, we carry Colt 45 because it's all tradition. Everything on our, you know, clothing is all tradition.
Speaker 1:I'm like yeah, yeah, we're, we're, we're. I don't do this, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And they go. Oh no, no, you know, most expensive organization I've ever been a part of.
Speaker 1:I had to buy all the pants, my boots, you know my, my belts, my the Colt 45,.
Speaker 2:My Colt 45, my first one was gifted to me. I had a guy in our church, great man, he kind of dominated the conversation. Anytime I would walk into the church service he was. He was there all the time and I wouldn't be able to spend a lot of time with you because he was there, you know. But great, great man, and he had a great military history and and I you know I love talking about that the day that he got out, that that that I had made Ranger, he had called and said, hey, can I stop by the office? You know, I thought, oh gosh, I don't have. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm about to get off work.
Speaker 2:That's two hours you know right, there's two hours of it. He walks in that door. He walks in, lays the gun down, lays the the receipt where he bought it 1984, colt 45, laid it down, wow. And he said that's yours. I said no, sir. I said I can't. I mean I thank you but I can't take that. You can borrow it till I want it back. I'll do that, that is cool. I still have it, so it was but, but you know, it was just.
Speaker 3:How long did you carry that one?
Speaker 2:Oh man, I carried that one probably five or six years before or eventually. What's, what's kind of humorous about the whole thing is a SIG came out with their 1911 weapon and then they, they tooled it up for the Rangers and stuff and so we all, you know, had an opportunity to buy one. So I'm actually still I'm back to carrying a SIG. This is 1911.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It just looks like a Colt. You know prison system inmates made her belts for us and and tooled our handcuffs and all that stuff. So the saying is they weren't producing in society. But you lock them up and they do great work.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they did great work.
Speaker 3:So we have listeners from all over the world that listen, and a lot of them may not know what a Cinco Peso is. Would you share what that is, cause it's super iconic. It's iconic, I mean it's incredible, but we have people in New Zealand and all over listening that may not have a Cinco Peso, so one of the.
Speaker 2:When the Rangers were formed in 1823, they were a paramilitaristic type organization. Basically they were their frontline defense for for the events that were taking place during that timeframe and eventually, at some point, they moved from being a paramilitaristic to a law enforcement type organization and at that time the, the sheriffs and the city police and whoever, they all had badges. And so in order to be recognized as a law enforcement somebody and to this day the Rangers don't know who it was, but they had a Cinco Peso coin, a Mexican coin, and they cut out the insides of it to make a make a star. So from there it became the, you know, the our badge. So the badges that that the Rangers are carrying today, they came from either a 19, I'll get this wrong 1947 and 1948, those, those two years or the badges are all made out of the coins from those two years to this day. To this day, because those are the, the only two years that that that coin was up your silver. It was diluted before and after. That's cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's cool so you had people all over the world that were collecting those, those coins of the minute at that timeframe, and so is there a finite supply of those? Yeah, that's, that's that's going. It's going fast.
Speaker 1:You know, the further we get away from there, I'm sure Texas probably has a good chunk of them, I'm sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would imagine there's a supply somewhere.
Speaker 1:I can imagine. I'm sure Abbott's got them under underneath the, somewhere hidden in that office.
Speaker 2:So they. So I was given so on a single peso or on a, on a on a Ranger badge, the front of it is it's got the Texas Rangers and you know it's all engraved. But if you turn it over on the backside you can still see the eagle. You know it's it's. They didn't, they didn't, polish that down, it's it's. You can still tell that it's the, the single peso itself. So whenever I was given my single peso, I said man. I said that's great. I said you know me being me, you know I'm having to ask the question. I said but what if you lose it? They said well, if you lose it, we'll get you a second one. I go okay, if I lose that one, they go, we have a position for you within DPS somewhere. Yeah, just won't be with the Rangers.
Speaker 2:I get that, and they're not. They're not to be sold, they're not to be, you know, traded off or anything like that.
Speaker 3:What a moment, though, when you're 19 years old, telling your sheriff I'm going to be a Ranger. That's what I was going to say, then standing there getting handed your single peso.
Speaker 1:At what point did it hit you? So you've been promoted, you just get your your badge. You're with Cathy. I mean. At what point did you have you laid out your duty rig, seeing the peso, and looked in the mirror and wearing the iconic Ranger uniform, going shit? I did it, yeah. And then how many people can do that?
Speaker 2:And then, very quickly behind that was like am I qualified? Oh crap, I'm going to be the guy that's going to tear down the whole tradition and one fails.
Speaker 2:Right, you know but uh, you know, I'll tell you that, with that being said, um, it was to answer that question. Um, uh, you know, for years, um, my wife has made sure that each one of her boys had to stand up in front of the fireplace first day of school pictures. You know that sort of thing, you know. And uh, I'm getting ready for the first time, leaving out of the house and suffer spring. She goes I got to take your first day of work picture, I said. I said don't do that.
Speaker 2:And anyway, I turn around the door and she takes my picture. I still got that picture.
Speaker 1:That's cool, that's like that.
Speaker 2:That's the day you know that I got in the truck and I was. I was not, you know, howard pro-sgt anymore. I was range of man. I'm fulfilling my dream. You know that's awesome and a great run. Enjoyed every bit of it.
Speaker 3:How long did you do as a ranger? 16 years six patrol, six sergeant 16 is a ranger, that's awesome, yeah, and uh, it's so.
Speaker 2:I, um, and, and the day that I left the job, I retired, which January 31st of this year, I still loved it, I still would have continued to do it, it was just it got to the point where, you know, I need to make this decision. Um, both boys were, were gone, they're out of the house. It was now, you know, and, and I never promoted in the 16 years, um, uh, that timeframe, although there was a lot of opportunities to promote, but, um, uh, kathy and I had made the decision that we were going to stay in one place, that we wanted the boys to go all the way through school. We didn't want to bounce them around, you know, following my career, so we stayed and we focused on the boys. And once they were up and, you know, gone off, the second ones gone off to college, then, then it was up to Kathy and I to make a decision.
Speaker 2:And, uh, I had, um, uh, taken a lieutenants test. I was on the eligibility list, uh, for almost, uh, well, I guess it was six months that I was on the eligibility list until you, finally, you know, uh, you fall off the we. We were anticipating some movement, you know some retirements and all that stuff and and they came in with a uh pay incentive and everybody stayed with their ad. So I thought, you know, I think it's a great time, and about that time I was getting, um, getting the calls from the categories association saying, you know, dangling the carrots, and hey, we've got this place for you over here.
Speaker 1:So yeah, Well, and then for our non-listeners, just like Clint, clint talks about um, uh, a large, large primary goal that you are not.
Speaker 1:Goal of a large primary duty that tech, the, the arrangers, do have is uh handling with officer involved shootings. Tnpa has got a I would consider a really good relationship with the Texas Rangers division because that's that's who 95% of our we have to deal with, our attorneys and so forth. And if you want to touch on um number one, some advice to listeners out there at the 21, 30 year old cop, street cop, uh, any law enforcement professional right now, just about uh, what to look out for and what to prepare yourself involved in a critical incident. I know uh Ranger Oliver puts on one hell of a class of officer involved. You know how to, how to respond, and just about the communication. We're talking to the cameras now because that's a reality that we have to face in law enforcement. But what, what would you say to the person listening about critical incidences and response and what you kind of identified problems, uh, during your, I guess, ranger career?
Speaker 2:You know, one of the and I didn't hear this as much when I went through my first um, uh, police officer academy in A&M but, um, a lot of the academies that were, uh, that were coming in the local academies, yeah, uh, as well as um, when an officer first gets on the road with their FTO uh and I'm sure y'all probably heard it too he said, well, hey, when the Ranger show up, you know he's the internal investigations you know, you know, watch it, you know that's what he's here for, and and so I, I spent the large majority of my time kind of disputing that, you know, uh, debunking that, because, no, I'm not in my, I don't have a number, I, I, I guess maybe I chose not to get that number, but I can't tell you how many murder investigations that I've either was primary or secondary on, uh, how many officer involved shootings that we've been involved with.
Speaker 2:I mean just hundreds and hundreds and hundreds over that 16 year period, and if not just East Texas, we would go where the problem was. Of all of the officer involved shootings that I've been a part of one time. Um, it didn't go good for the officer, you know, and and honestly, he knew it from the beginning he made a, he made a split, this split second decision. It was a very poor decision. He regretted his decision and, um, and it didn't go favorably for him. As a matter of fact, uh, they were, uh, criminal charges were pending, he resigned and, for whatever reason, all the criminal charges go away, which and that's that's not part of our out of the house, all of those investigations that we've done. One time an officer messed up, yeah, you know so. In other words, there's a thousand other times that our officers were spot on, a hundred percent.
Speaker 1:And you're not talking about just deep, you're talking about every enforcement, law enforcement.
Speaker 2:Yeah, uh, if you're carrying a badge and if y'all pulled the trigger, we would show up. Yeah, so I would show up at these scenes and these guys would just be like, oh, shoot, you know, because now I'm investigating them as kind of that that feeling that they were getting, and I'd pull them off the side and I'd say, hey, you know, and I'd shut somebody down hard. You know, if somebody walked up and say, hey, be careful, what you said, yeah, I would. Yeah, it's offensive. I would say what needed to be said to that individual at that point in time that we won't repeat here.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And then I turned back to this guy and say look, I'm laying this all out to you. You know, I'm here to investigate the shooting itself, not you. You know I said I'm here to put it on record. I'm the guy that's going to be in your corner, champion for you. You know when, when we go to court, you know. And then I explained to him you know, every time it's like hey, I've only one person and all this time only one person is messed up. And he knew he messed up. Yeah.
Speaker 3:I teach a class similar to Brad's, teach a little different, just I teach from what they're going to expect to go through.
Speaker 3:Absolutely and then with the investigator why the investigator is going to need some of the things a little bit different than Brad teaches it. But I try and tell guys all the time the Rangers aren't police, the police are. Rangers are criminal. So they're not there that you used a bad word or you drove you know five miles over your local policy, or that they're not I, they're completely different. And so the mind said that they're just out there to hyper criticize or be the I of it is complete. All they care about is criminal and if you said a bad word or you didn't have your tie on out of class A policy, whatever your little local policies are, they don't care about that. It's to make sure you didn't violate the penal code and it's. It's very different, very distinct, what those investigations are.
Speaker 2:And we would. When we would come in and would pull the video stuff. I'm the one that's going to the grand jury. You know I'm. You know the officer's not going to show up. I'm the guy showing up. I'm the guy that's going to explain what happened and let the grand jury decide whether the true bill or no bill, the case. And and I have a spiel I sit down and I talk to the grand jury. I said I said this is going to take. I said you're used to somebody walking in giving you a case and walk out. I said I need to give you a little bit of background, a little bit of understanding, and I explained to them how we, how we operate, what we do. And then I explained to them, I said you're going to hear language in here.
Speaker 2:You know it could. Most of 99% of the time you're going to hear language in in these videos. You've got to put yourself in that officer's standpoint and I'll bring it back to them and say, hey, these, these are family men. Yeah, you know they have. They're. They're standing on the right side, they're, they're withholding Romans, chapter 13. I mean, they're doing what they're supposed to be doing, you know, and and this bad situation happened to them by a suspect not a guilty person, by a suspect, and they were forced with the decision that they had to make. You know, and and their, their, their lives flashed in front of them. Yeah, yeah, they're jacked up and, yeah, they're going to say some things, you know.
Speaker 2:I said, you know we'll get over that and move on and if it offend y'all, I'll visit with you in a minute, you know when it's over. But we're going to watch this video and you're going to see, and then I'll walk them step by step. And I explained the investigation. I stopped the video I've got to we do a PowerPoint presentation when it comes to that point, and so we were able to chop it all up and explain everything I'm not doing and I, you know all I'm doing is calling balls and strikes. You know, I, you know if, if, the, if they done something wrong. You know we, just I keep talking about it and keep moving on. You know I'll show the good points and the bad points and overall it's their decision.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I did want to bring up one thing. I forgot it because you you talked about the audience talking about the moves. We, you know, mentioned the fact that we moved twice with with DPS and the first time we moved we had our oldest son and then Kathy was pregnant with our second child, second son. When we made the move, once we we got to Marshall, now you can imagine, we were well embedded, we'd been years and so far, I mean, excuse me, huntsville, we were well embedded.
Speaker 2:Once we get to Marshall, of course I'm walking from one law enforcement community to another law enforcement community. I mean, you know, I've, you know, I've got friends, instant friends, you know. When I, when I walk in the door, right Son goes to school, you know, instant friends, you know. And then, because of the age of our oldest son, there was a lot of, um, mommy and me type programs that my wife could be involved in and then she was able to develop her friends and she established a great, you know my friendship base. Yeah, right, well, when we promoted to Ranger and go to sulfur springs, I walk into my ready made family, you know, law enforcement, right, both boys go to school and by the end of the day they're. You know, they got their little lifelong friends, you know, and uh, kathy's at the house?
Speaker 2:There's no, you know there's, there's no. And she struggled quietly. I never knew that's the the champion of a woman she is. I never knew that she was struggling as hard as she was because she didn't have it friend base, you know. And and then you know, she was able to, over time, uh, build some great relationships, uh. So I say all that to say that, uh, you know my sheer stupidity over over us, overlooked, missed her need for, to have that, that bond law enforcement, we've got it, you know, I mean, you know we're, uh, what, what does a, what does a fellow police officer do? Fine, if you're, if you're laying on the ground, you know they're going to kick you one time and then they'll stand you up. You know, I mean, cause we're. You know that's the way we are right, yeah, uh, and we, it's hard for us not to understand, not having a ready made family, you know, or friendship, you know. So, viewers, uh, you know, just always look back, check on your family and make sure everybody's good.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's huge because we had a a member come on that was a dart officer. Uh, he ended up getting to a motorcycle wreck and was paralyzed and and and he, he, he suffered a lot and and the wife was talking about the struggle, she came on with him. Uh, rachel talked about just the, you know, law enforcement that has TNPA.
Speaker 2:You've got other organizations.
Speaker 1:the ranger has their, you know, group and there's nothing for the spouse. Uh, there's not really that. You know that camaraderie, the really the spousal group, um, and so she had talked about you know that, on her, her episode, which I thought they're connected, you know, just connected the dots Go ahead, no go ahead.
Speaker 2:Well, I was.
Speaker 2:I was just I was going to follow up one thing, um, uh, part of what I did is a Texas Ranger was, um, I was on a hostage negotiation team and we, we, uh, developed a uh good training curriculum and um, uh, we, we ended up with a really great case study on a, on an event that took place and um, with that um presenting that, that took me all over the country presenting that one uh case.
Speaker 2:You know, so I had a great opportunity to travel all over the country and into Canada with this one particular case talking about it and uh, so you, you have to start with a little opener right, and you can't just walk right into the case and start. You know, you got to, you got to have something little song and dance beforehand, right, and I always told people, or later, later in in this career, um, when I was giving this presentation, uh, our, our oldest son was, um, he was 18 at the time and uh, he was um, uh, took a job, a summer job working on a ranch in Wyoming, and so he went yes, it went and worked, you know.
Speaker 2:And so him traveling all the way up there and all the way back, you know, that was, you know, young man traveling that far, you know, you know we were a little nervous but he did great, yeah, uh. So I tell the story that, um, uh, about, about our community If you don't understand law enforcement community, I mean, this is, this is the perfect story. Uh, he's, he's getting ready to come home, okay, and we've been talking to him the night before and everything, and uh, we're like, well, you know, once you stop at our we had a halfway point, you know once you go there, spend the night and come in, well, he was trying to get home, you know, of course, you know he's he's 18, 17 years old.
Speaker 2:You know, it was everything like us, you know. And so, no, I'm getting up in the morning and I'm going to drive that 18 hours home. Okay, all right. And then, uh, that morning, you know I hadn't got the phone call that I'm on the road yet, and he's, well, we're going to pin the horses. Well, there's 168 horses that they're pinning, you know. And then I'm going to tell everybody behind everybody, well, it's two o'clock in afternoon by the time. He's on the road. Okay, so you're going to their midway point. Now I'm driving on third, that's okay. Nice, keep me informed. So we're, you know about Southern Colorado.
Speaker 2:I get that phone call. I don't know, I don't think I can make it and I had hotel points. So I'm figuring where he's, you know where he's coming to, and I call the hotel and I get the hotel, you know, and I said you go there spend the night, and he's okay. And then I get thinking, after I hung up the phone they're going to, it's a reservation for John Vance, it's not a reservation for Cody, you know so. And here's this young kid walking in that they can't. He's not old enough to get a room by himself. You know, I'm like you know, and now it's what, midnight or one o'clock in the morning, you know like. So you know, I call the police department. You know some old crusty how it goes. I mean patrol sergeant answers the phone.
Speaker 2:I said hey, fella, you don't know me and I don't know you, but here's who I am and here's what I need you know. And I mean he, he turned quickly and he said I'll tell you what he said. I'll go, he's, I'll go over and I'll tell them that they're going to. I said no, no, no, no. I said you know, I don't want to rock any boat. I said I just, I just need a safety net in the event that something happens. You know, and he goes, I'll tell you what I'm going to do. He said if he walks out of that hotel and they won't give him a room, he said I'm going there, I'm going to cancel your room. I said I'm going to get him a room, I'm going to put that boy up and I'm going to feed him breakfast and I'll get him gone to you in the morning. And then I, you know, and I said well, you, you know, tell me how much owe you, you know. And so, uh, I'm waiting, waiting, waiting. Uh, cody called and he's, I'm in my room.
Speaker 2:I said, well, how'd everything go? He said I'm good. He said I. He said I walked in. He said there was a police officer outside and waved at him and so he went. He never knew. You know that we had that background. But what private organization you know? Any other organization outside of military law enforcement? What? What other organization can you call? That's right, yep. And and ask for that, that man was willing to buy my son's room. Put him up.
Speaker 3:That's all. Like his own, like his own, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I'd do the same.
Speaker 3:That's cool, Um, Going out working police shootings. Always ask, so I work police shootings at Garland. I had TMPA.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 3:So in Coronavirus, you know theACEDIR, you know how the즒. Yeah hometown an officer has just been involved in a shooting. The police report, the medical examiner's report, that's homicide. They took another human's life.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 3:There is no larger event that's going to happen in their lifetime and their career that could affect their family, their paycheck and, ultimately, their safety. Yeah, You're out there. They've taken a human's life. They're wanting legal representation. Tell from your standpoint, because we have a lot of officers that come on. Tell their version of what it's like being in the shooting. What, what is it? What has been your experience or your opinion and of dealing with, with, with TNPA as you navigate through those situations?
Speaker 2:I first got into law enforcement 30 years ago now and it was, uh, I, you know, if you really wanted a lawyer, you want. We don't ever get lawyers to screw them, you know, you know it was. It was that mentality 30 years ago. Uh, by the time I made Ranger, that mentality had shifted for the better, uh, but it shifted to it, but it was almost apologetic. Whenever that supervisor come to me, hey, he's, uh, he's not wanting to talk to, he has an attorney present. I welcome that, you know, and I had there were several attorneys uh, that, uh, that worked the area, you know, northeast Texas, and I had them on my, in my phone, you know, obviously, chance meeting, and then I'd save, save their, uh, their number on my phone, gave them my number and I'd get that phone call. Sometimes I knew, before the officer or before I even got there, because I'd get a call, you know, um, andy, uh.
Speaker 3:Steve Andy Stinson. Yeah, I'd get a call from Andy.
Speaker 2:Yeah and uh. You know, phone rang to be Andy. I go, hey we're. I think we're heading the same spot because yeah, yeah, we are.
Speaker 2:That's okay. I said, well, you know how far out are you and, and I'd get there and I'd look over at the officer and I wave at him and I'd say you, just, you're all right, the dog don't. You know no need to approach. And then I, or, and Andy knew that the all, all attorneys, know that I don't, I don't want your story. Tell me where I can walk in and where I don't need to be walking in. You know, I want to preserve evidence. You know, in the officers, I will, I, you know, go this away and you know we've held everybody back. Thank you, have seat, andy, be here in just a minute, you know, and then we'd take care of business and then, when Andy to get there, I'd signal you know where to go. And after a while they would approach and you know, and uh, because, uh, and as you teach that night, uh, you know at the scene, uh, one number one. You know we can't, we can't say this enough.
Speaker 2:The scene is neutralized. The scene is still, um, we've got law enforcement, you know, we got, we got a blue wall built around this scene. Nothing's come, haven't seen. There is no reason to touch any weapon, including the officers. Leave it alone. Don't clear it, don't empty it. Don't, you know, count bullets, don't just leave it. Uh, if it's on the ground, it's on the ground. If it's on his body, leave it on his body.
Speaker 2:Um, you know, I, I had many a time an officer, you know, would walk up. He wouldn't have a holster, I mean, wouldn't have a gun in his holster. Where's your pistol? Well, so, so, yeah, he got it. He's in his car somewhere, you know which. I can work through that, but you know I, you're camping with evidence. Yeah, so, uh, whenever they would, him and Andy would come up, um, I'd explain to them and say I need, I need photographs, and this is what I'm doing, uh, mainly because his uniform is, uh, the officer's uniform is nasty at usually at this point, but it's evidence, yeah, oh, it's evidence. And, and because the bad guy is probably about 30 pounds underweight, you know, and you got swords all over his face and you know he's typical, let's say, a meth head. Well, two years from now, whenever we actually go to trial, he's going to be 30 pounds overweight, with a nice haircut, a cheap suit on, you know, and, uh, but I'm taking pictures of this is what the guy looked like he. I say y'all see what he looks like now. But this is what you know. This is what he looked like back then. Yeah, at the same time, look at that good looking officer up there, look at that uniform. That's what that man looks like every day when he goes to work. That's a. He looks sharp in that uniform. This is what he looked like the night after that fight, you know. And so that's the reason for the pictures.
Speaker 2:And if it takes just a few minutes to explain, in that uh and and and always, um, um, had an old ranger told me. He said you got one in bottles of water's in your truck because I'm sure they had a canteen. Whenever he first started, he said always grab that water bottle, break the seal and then hand it to the guy you know, uh, because if he's, if he's coming down, you know, off of his high anxiety of what just happened, you know, and his, he's dumping, um, his, his fine motor skills are still going to, they haven't come back yet. He's not going to be able to navigate that.
Speaker 3:That's awesome.
Speaker 2:That lead, you know. Loosen that lead for him and then let him drink. He needs to drink that whole bottle of water. It puts uh, you know, nutrients back in them, but at the same time it gives him chance to come down, you know, and then throw it away, and then let's have a conversation.
Speaker 3:It's the little pieces, the institutional knowledge passed on, some wisdom passed along. But I think it's important because when I retired from Garland well, retired from Garland, working police shootings, I was on a small scale, I wanted a TNPA and I was going for a long time to all of them.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:You don't understand or you assume. What is this? This big adversarial relationship? It was really. I appreciated watching. There's no adversarial relationship in um, the Rangers get along with the attorneys and the attorneys get along and I think that's a misnomer maybe sometimes to the public. Oh well, cause like that started Dallas in 67 and he's like in the sixties or seventies when you shot people. Yes, sir, never even crossed your mind to call an attorney, I mean it was just unheard of, yeah, and. I was like yeah, but this is we have activists.
Speaker 1:They don't have Jose Garces and a little different now.
Speaker 3:Um, but it was shocking to see the first couple of times this beautiful orchestrated investigation and I try to tell non law enforcement people if you think our lawyer's showing up to lie. Number one that lawyer is not going to jeopardize his career to lie for somebody. I'm not jeopardizing my career to lie for somebody and today probably 90% of it's on video anyway. You're not fixing, you can't fix it, it just happened. It's there, it's on two cell phone cameras for morons, video on it, it's on in car body camera and probably two buildings with it. You can undo it's on video. But they have a right to the representation just like any other suspect we arrest.
Speaker 2:You've got a goal, you got to accomplish.
Speaker 3:the administrative investigation has a goal that they need to accomplish. Yeah, everybody's got a part in this play, this pageant that plays out, but I've appreciated through the years getting to know you and David Armstrong and now pedigree up me and pedigree, been friends for years and there were, I guess, mutual respect.
Speaker 3:It's not this big adversarial people are out there arguing over, and you know, draw lines in the sand. Everybody has a role to fill. It all gets done. There's not hiding, fixing, you know, the thin blue wall veil of coverups and it's just. It's just a pageant play that has to play out. Everybody has a part, there's actors out there that everybody has a role to feel. But I've enjoyed through the years seeing Zach Horn and and all of our attorneys are like oh, if you I'll call them, hey, come out some over. Oh, holler at John or holler at Armstrong, and it's just been a really sound professional relationship and I hope from y'all's side it seems like we have tons of Rangers that are members.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah.
Speaker 3:But I appreciate and I tell guys all the time, if you want to trust who, you should get your legal plan through. Look at like Mesquite Mesquite's entire homicide is team PA Garland's entire homicide. So the guys that are working them, if they choose who they trust to be professional representation, that may should give a little hint to you of where you might should put your trust in.
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely.
Speaker 3:And I hope that's felt on both sides, that it's not banging fist and screaming. It's. It's everybody has a, it's a professional relationship that works through all the way around.
Speaker 2:Yeah, our Hollywood doesn't help us out.
Speaker 1:You know, yeah, oh, yeah.
Speaker 2:And, unfortunately, the 99.9% of our, the population is basing law enforcement off of the crooked cops on TV that it's gets portrayed because it gets the. It sells the tickets for people to sit in a theater and watch. Truth of the matter is, is that you know it's, it's a great relationship all the way around, you know, and there's a lot of, a lot of Josh and a lot of bantering. You know, a good kinship fun, but when it comes right down to it, it's a it's, it's the typical deal. You, you know, if I pull up on the side of the road and, and as a ranger, especially as now as a cattle ranger, we're reactive to anything. You know we're not proactive, but it's you know, we get the telephone call, we respond rangers the same way. So, with that being said, I may be in a hurry to get back and forth, but there's time on my side. If there's a officer on the side of the road when's a lot, you know, rolling and he's out on the conduct, I'll, I'll pull over, get out and I'll turn around and I'll face the rear traffic. You know, because that's your first, it's your biggest danger besides the, the person in the vehicle. And, uh, you know you take your time, you, you you check on these guys and you stay with these guys, uh, again, going into a, a different profession. Who's going to have you back like that? You know, and, and I do that because I was on the side of the road as a young, you know, patrolman and I look up and scared me to death. I look up and there's a vehicle behind me, you know, and how'd that get there, you know, behind my patrol vehicle. And so I'm, I'm shining the lights, trying to figure out who cause it's nighttime. Yeah, there's this guy standing with his back to to me, facing, you know, the the northbound traffic or, you know, southbound, whatever it was.
Speaker 2:I finished my traffic stop and stepped back and it was. He was a detective from another agency off duty late at night. He's traveling through. He said, man, you're, I ain't nobody out here except you. I said that's that's the way we, unfortunately, that's the way we're working, you know. He said, all right, you need anything, I'm good, and he takes off, and I think I thanked him, but I never got his name and I remember he was. He said it was a detective, you know, and I thought, man, that guy, just out of nowhere stopped check on me, so that's been my, you know my, my goal. From then on, I don't, I don't pass them up.
Speaker 3:That's awesome, yeah, so this is going to be the the really Texan part of the episode.
Speaker 2:Oh, here we go.
Speaker 3:A lot of people probably don't know what TSCRA is Texas Southwest Cattle Razors Association and I'm jealous because I wanted, since I was a kid, to be a special ranger. Yeah, and y'all have turned into like the NFL Hall of Fame. They're recruiting the VIPs out of law enforcement.
Speaker 3:You got Pemberton Robert Pemberton canine out of Greenville PD was a stud officer at Greenville PD, mike Boone from the game wardens, the my my wife's in love with him. She would leave me tomorrow if Mike Boone calls her a game warden from Lone Star Law. John Vance is over there. Tscra special rangers is becoming. I mean, they recruit the best and and I have a ton of respect for you guys and for TSCRA, I'm a member of them. But for non listeners, would you give a cliff notes version of what you guys, what it looks like in a day to day operation? Yeah, what you guys do.
Speaker 2:Well, I wake up around 10 30. Some Captain Crush.
Speaker 1:Captain.
Speaker 2:Crush. Actually, this has been kind of it's. It's been a Change of pace for me. As a Texas Ranger I was I was getting about four hours of sleep at night, and not that I wanted to, but you know could have been at midnight and at four o'clock morning. My mind's rolling and you know you're up About a month after I'd swap jobs. I Wake up and it was about seven. You know the shine light shining through the window, my wife's looking me like she thought I was dead, you know somebody making me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, she goes, I finally get to collect on your life insurance. No, no, but it's been a different pace. But anything that touches the world of agriculture, any crime, anything related to the agriculture, is what we take care of. I was Truly blown away and a lot of people are, once they get into this, this side of the house about how many cattle thefts there there are. You know, and it's not just cattle theft, we're talking horse theft, we're talking embezzlement from banks on on equipment trailers, tractors.
Speaker 2:You name it. It's, and especially those because they're their equipment, that you that's not licensed. So you know, other than a van that's hard to see, you know it was a green track.
Speaker 2:Yeah, just there's another big green tractor and if you put that on the trailer and head in south into Mexico, who's gonna see that? Yeah, who's gonna notice that? So anyway, we, we a A lot of education with the ranchers like help, help me, help you. You know we, of course it's a private organization. I come from a governmental organization. Anytime my phone rings, you know I'm here to help that person that calls with the Texas and Southwest Cattle Ridge Association. They are a private company, so it's members member funded member funded only.
Speaker 2:So we're not. We don't receive money from the government. With that being said, member calls me, I respond I take care of it. However, if a Another private individual calls me and says, hey, I'm not a member, but I'm, I'm at a loss, I need help, I'm not gonna turn that man down. You know we're gonna. We're gonna help them. Obviously I have to take care of the members first, but but willing to help anybody, the People ask well, you know I'll watch Yellowstone. Is it like the livestock agents? I go yes, no, we don't get to wear hair long. No, facial hair, we don't go around killing everybody. Then it didn't go in the house.
Speaker 1:That's not. She does not. You're not gonna walk out the time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's not it, but anyway it's, it's been really great. You know, I'd say I went back, you like you said full circle, because I'm dealing with the, the guys that I grew up in that world. You know, and it was fun to come back to that and realize that, unfortunately, as as y'all well know, if you stay in that circle of of, of murders and thieves, and you know you, law enforcement gets you get the point where you just you, just tainted on society To be able to go back into this, this realm, and deal with great folks. You know, and and they're they're dealing with thefts. You know it's, at the end of the day, it's a property theft. I'll be more than happy to handle property theft over a murder. Oh, absolutely took a little getting used to my.
Speaker 2:My supervisor is a former ranger, a text ranger, and he, I said, submitted my first case report and he calls me and he said man, he says great report. You know he said who died, somebody died, what happened? Well, you know, I don't know what's on by the goes. Well, I got your report. Did somebody die? I said no, sir. I said he said well, what this is is a property crime. I Don't need 27 pages. I don't need to know what position the light switch was facing whenever you walked into the room. You know.
Speaker 3:It was just a low-boy trailer.
Speaker 2:You know, but but it was taking that, you know, right in that hundred page murder investigation report, with, with, detailing every single little thing you know, down to this is the day it was stolen. And yeah, yeah, these are, these are the clues that we had and this is the I would put in jail.
Speaker 3:But how cool. Because law enforcement's a tough business right now and Because of politics, the economy and there's a whole lot of factors socio-economic, farming and ranchers you're still serving a community. It's tough go to make a living ranching farming and the profit margins narrow and so somebody steals a tractor or steals your side-by-side that you're using. You know too old to ride horseback, so I'm trying to feed and take care of the place on side-by-side and it's stolen that. You're still serving a community of hard-working Americans and that's that's super honorable.
Speaker 2:I mean, that's that's super cool one of the and thank you that one of the greatest things is and in Workcase friend of mine, worked case at the Calarano fellow Calaranger. But Guy calls in his hay balers stolen and we're right in the beginning stages of hay season. You know, and you still, that you didn't steal a, you know a two thousand dollar piece of equipment. You know, you know this is new nice and of course it's painted green.
Speaker 2:So that's like a little extra for you know, like stealing a hammer from a carpenter, though too Exactly that, bailey so he he was able to track it down Pulls up into the yard there's a green baler sitting there, knocks on the door. Suspect comes to the door. He said I'm gonna talk to you about that Baler and he drops his head, which is that international signal foot.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I screwed up yeah and Admitted to it you know, and he said well, they said I'm not putting you in jail today, he's, I still gotta go back get warrants. You know that process. But that Baler's leaving your property today and Suspect over here. Let me back you up back a little more, let me. And he hooks it back up to the. And so, anyway, the Cattle ranger takes that Baler and he said you know, he said it was. It was that defining moment when I pulled into that guy's yard, you know, to our victim's yard, pulling his baler, you know, and fortunately it wasn't destroyed and it just just moved locations. But he was able to get it back to him and the next day he's able, yeah, he's back in production. That's rewarding, yes, working, 16 years of working murder investigation, you can never make a family whole. I mean, it's just you. There's no way and you're not you fooling yourself if you think you can try. But something like that, yeah, that's, that's, that's good stuff.
Speaker 3:And one more unique thing for our listeners TSC RA, you guys cover Texas, oklahoma.
Speaker 2:Texas in Oklahoma. I went from having three counties as a tech stranger. I've got 14 counties I'm covering Texas and seven in Texas and seven in Oklahoma. I got just recently I was certified OSBI. Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigations is care of my commission in Oklahoma. So I I crossed the river and, you know, do whatever I need to do there. So One of the course. You know you get your great quotes from Lonesome Duff, right? Oh yeah, I mean, that's where it comes from. We were, we were chasing a murder suspect and we were in Michigan, I believe was Illinois. We were up north. I I catch a flying, flying in, you know, dressed like this. You know, go up and knock on the door the local PD and said you know, I need to go kick that door in. You know, y'all welcome to come with me, but I'm not sure.
Speaker 2:I want y'all know who I am before I go. You know, and and the chief's looking at me, you know, it's kind of you know, hey, are you? You know? And he goes. I hate to ask. He says, but he said do you have authority here? You know well, quoting Augustus McCray, my authority is where I happen to be at, and right now I'm standing right here.
Speaker 1:He goes he goes.
Speaker 2:Well, let me send a couple guys with you?
Speaker 1:No, I had no authority.
Speaker 2:But you know that's, I knew where my bad guy was, that and that's where I was going, and so, anyway, but it's been great walking in and introducing yourself and and, and that's a lot of what the Rangers and the cattle Rangers both is doing. They're not gonna know who you are, you know, and because we work alone and. But I have a goal I need accomplished and I'm not gonna do anything without the sheriff and chief of police being aware that I'm in there, you know, in great help.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Good stuff oh.
Speaker 3:In your 30 years law enforcement, what has been John Vance's very best day on the job and his worst day?
Speaker 2:You know I would. I would have to say the very best day Is the day that you know I turned around for my wife to take my first day of school picture. You know it was that. It wasn't until I got in the truck and I was driving off that you realize that's like hey man you know, yeah, now, now I've got to, now I've got to do something, you know.
Speaker 3:I might call Woodrow Cole.
Speaker 2:Help me out here.
Speaker 2:You know, the one of the absolute worst days was a and it was a Long story made very short had a mother kill her two infant children and and tried to pin it on somebody else, and I mean, all the evidence was there, you know, and, course, as a ranger, you know I'm working the whole.
Speaker 2:You know I'm running the investigation and running the crime scene unless, unless it ends up being a large one and I called, you know, people had to help me. This one was, this crime scene was small enough, you know, and you walk in there and there's two sweet little girls, you know, and laying there in their beds and, and I couldn't help but think, you know, my wife and I have no desire to Adopt a child, but you know, we had two boys and there's two little girls and I'd have taken them to little babies in the heart Before. I know they were in distress and there was a problem. They would have been there that had the last name, vance, you know, as quick as they could, yeah, and to have those two Babies laying there very peacefully, sleeping, you know, or the appearance of sleeping, I think, a man, that this is humanity, it's worse you know, and we're in here to scrape this up, you know, but what?
Speaker 2:what One human being that would do to another human being never ceases to amaze me. Yeah, neither.
Speaker 1:Yep, well, we. We typically end each show with some rapid fire questions, and I've got some faith in you. You and Clint started about the same, just a little bit farther apart, so maybe, maybe you're gonna give him leverage on his question. I don't want to go any deeper because I'm gonna get accused of trying to stack. Yeah, oh yeah, absolutely so. What's your favorite cop movie or line from a cop movie, your favorite cop car and then your favorite drink of choice when John Vance is relaxing in John Vance style?
Speaker 2:Okay, all right, right question, give me the first one favorite cop movie or line from a cop movie oh, man, you know I mean that's. That's easy enough. It's the First thing Lethal weapon there when they're standing on the edge number one.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's the number one.
Speaker 2:Do you want to die? Do you want to die?
Speaker 1:Let's see a cop car.
Speaker 2:Oh you know, all right, so I'm gonna have to go back to Douglas car. There was but the the, the shambles, the Chevrolet.
Speaker 1:Caprice.
Speaker 2:Hey, let me tell you something, man before they put the fence up on the interstate. Okay, I'm riding northbound on I-45, north of Huntsville, you know, let's say, and I see a car running, you know, 102 miles an hour. Well, I have time to put you know the coffee. Oh yeah, and I'd go through the median and I turn around and stop and pee.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, and then before you know it.
Speaker 2:I mean I'm, I'm light speed and you know the cars barely touching the ground, you know, and I catch the guy and pull him over. You know Fords, crown Vicks, you know that there was a workhorse. I mean you couldn't, you couldn't, you couldn't beat those cars. But when I'd see the speeder, when I'm diving in the ditch, you're sliding sideways and I'm trying to, you know, and then catch them five miles down the road, yeah. So yeah, go back those shambles, oh baby.
Speaker 3:That's what.
Speaker 1:I'm talking about. Well, you just made Clint's day, oh, yeah. Absolutely. What's your favorite drink of choice when you're trying to relax?
Speaker 2:With me. It is Half and half tea with a little bit of lemon. That's it, no.
Speaker 1:I'm alcoholic.
Speaker 2:I'm stuck with the tea. I would like to be able to tell you that I can drink you in the table, but my doctor says that my diabetes won't let me drink you in the tank.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I had half and half tea for lunch and it's so funny because I grew up drinking tea so sweet that it was almost like molasses. Yes, and I guess the older I got, I can't hurt. I have to drink half and half and I prefer, like a third, two-thirds.
Speaker 1:Yes, I can't hardly drink it.
Speaker 3:Yes, and for 30 years. I drink it so sweet you almost couldn't pour it out.
Speaker 2:You had to it would be plunk, plunk, plunk. Yeah, yeah, that's funny. Yeah, now it's the. You know, used to walk in these, tell a half and half, and they understood what that meant. Well, now you can come in, say quarter to quarter, you know, now it's like okay, well, wait, a minute, quarter on the sweet.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that's funny. Well, man, I can't thank you enough for coming on again. I've always, I'm always you know what the hell out of you. You just been a really good, really a guy to me, and so I appreciate it.
Speaker 2:No, I thank you for the opportunity, absolutely appreciate it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think a ton of information here, not just for civilians. I Think there's a lot of mystique, that sometimes people don't understand exactly what Rangers do, what they don't do. I'm sure there's a ton of people on here Texans that don't know what CSC or is and I'm proud to hear, let folks hear what you guys do and shed some light on what you guys do in the hard work and the great work In the relationship that we've always had man, I appreciate you.
Speaker 2:Just get up in the morning, go to work, yeah.
Speaker 1:I may have to live that one up for a little bit. You guys stay safe out there. Be sure to hit that like button. Greatly, greatly appreciate John Vance coming on and sharing his story. Again, a brother, I appreciate it. Thank you guys, stay safe. God bless you and, as always, may God bless Texas. We're out oh.
Speaker 3:Oh.
Speaker 2:Oh, oh.
