Lieutenant Dan Colasanto takes us on an incredible journey, sharing insights from his early days in New York to his impactful career in the Garland Police Department and the Texas Tactical Police Officers Association. As a West Point graduate, he highlights the discipline and skills he gained at the military academy and how they helped him in high-pressure situations in law enforcement. Dan also sheds light on effective risk management, the lessons learned from tragedies, and the critical role of evolving SWAT technologies. The episode concludes with an energizing discourse on the upcoming TTPOA conference in Austin.
email us at- bluegrit@tmpa.org
Lieutenant Dan Colasanto takes us on an incredible journey, sharing insights from his early days in New York to his impactful career in the Garland Police Department and the Texas Tactical Police Officers Association. As a West Point graduate, he highlights the discipline and skills he gained at the military academy and how they helped him in high-pressure situations in law enforcement. Dan also sheds light on effective risk management, the lessons learned from tragedies, and the critical role of evolving SWAT technologies. The episode concludes with an energizing discourse on the upcoming TTPOA conference in Austin.
email us at- bluegrit@tmpa.org
My mom was the president, there would be a mandatory military service for all males 18 and above. I'm going to try to go to West Point then, because I've got to go to ROTC. My first year of school they were doing reduction in force and we went to a briefing and I was sitting next to a major and he looked at me and says, hey, lieutenant, they came in one day and just handed guys pink slips and said, hey, thanks for your service, you're done, welcome back Blue Grit podcast listeners, viewers, lawyers.
Speaker 2:I am Tyler Owen, your host in.
Speaker 3:Clinton McNear.
Speaker 2:What's going on, man? What's up?
Speaker 3:Oh, got in the truck this morning, crank it and it was dead as a hammer. So I had to do NASCAR pit crew battery change All listeners that drive a diesel truck. When you have a battery go dead in August and O'Reilly's tells you if you're going to replace one or replace both, don't be hardheaded and cheap.
Speaker 2:So the professionals? So, just to be clear, the professionals indicated to you a guy has no business under a hood, unlike your son shot out to Brock and you didn't listen to him.
Speaker 3:I did not listen to him, so I replaced the battery in August because my truck was dead and this morning my truck was dead, so I replaced the second battery. I'm not mistaken, it was a podcast.
Speaker 2:We've also have a package that I'm going to inherit to the Owen family. Yes, Kim, yeah I am. Clint has a beautiful chocolate lab, that, uh, and with you traveling and stuff all the time. We've got I've got two kids and they need to be occupied, so I'm actually getting her kind of like. I'm hopeful. I know she sits, she stays, but I'm going to train her to be a babysitter. She'll do that. I've got two kids and so maybe that'll that'll work out. She will do that too.
Speaker 3:So she'll retrieve. There you go, horse fetched beer.
Speaker 2:She'll get a beer if I need it Probably Well. If she does, we'll bring her up to the TNPA headquarters and try it out. So I like it yeah, welcome our guests man.
Speaker 3:So we've got a legend SWAT legend on. I'm excited to have on Lieutenant Dan Colosanto Lieutenant Dan, yeah, I'm a Lieutenant Dan Colosanto from Garland PD, Long time Garland PD, long time SWAT at Garland PD. In the current president or executive director. President. President of TTPOA Texas tactical police officers association.
Speaker 2:Welcome on brother.
Speaker 1:Thank you, thanks for having me Absolutely.
Speaker 2:You're in town because you guys have a competition going on in Round.
Speaker 1:Rock this weekend. That's correct. It starts a Thursday. Tomorrow runs through Sunday, so people can come out and watch if they want. It's down in at the Wilco range and then I think part of it's going to be also at the Round Rock facility.
Speaker 2:By how many teams you usually have competing.
Speaker 1:That it varies. I think we're up to 30, maybe a little over 30 this year, so it's, it's a pretty full field and there's it's full time, part time teams. It's full time, part time, I think we. I think we have a medic team too from Wilco, I think. So we have a bunch out of state. We're one from Connecticut. Usually we get Florida, louisiana, so they come from all over out of country We've had, out of country. Last year we had Kuwait team from Kuwait came sweet, but that was interesting.
Speaker 2:Let's dive into that. It was pretty cool.
Speaker 3:Let's dive into that at the end. When we talk about um Garland, swat back in the 90s was legendary and the national SWAT competition. There's some pretty good stories from the roundup. We would like to share. Yeah, we'd like to get off every episode with who the hell's Dan? Where were you born? Who's Dan?
Speaker 1:So I was actually born in New York, rochester, new York, um grew up there, um played baseball, played hockey, was hockey player. I remember, uh, in high school I told my counselor that I wanted to play in the NHL. He kind of frowned upon that a little bit. Uh so, and then, uh so, instead of playing in the NHL I decided to go to West point, so worked out pretty well.
Speaker 3:Yeah, still a huge baseball fan. I remember you always been a huge baseball fan.
Speaker 1:My son coaches. He, uh, he teaches at Preston Wood Christian Academy. He's a head JV baseball coach there, so he's he's very baseball smart.
Speaker 3:That's awesome. Graduated from high school in New York.
Speaker 1:I did step in at high school it was all boys.
Speaker 3:And what?
Speaker 1:town is that in the high school is in white planes.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:That's. It was, uh, all boys Catholic with back in the day when you got on a line you got smacked. So it was. Uh, it was pretty interesting. On one of my West point interviews they asked me, uh, if I would have trouble with the discipline and I asked the guy I go, well, do they do they hit you if you get out of line and he's like, well, god, no, they don't do that, I go.
Speaker 1:Well, look, sir said I go to Archbishop Steppenack. And if you get out of line there and you get smacked, so I think I'm going to be all right and all they're going to do is yell at me.
Speaker 2:That's awesome.
Speaker 3:Um, do you have a lot of family military? What led you to West point? How'd that, how'd that play?
Speaker 1:So, um, if my mom was the president, there would be a mandatory military service for all males 18 and above.
Speaker 3:So not a bad idea, not a bad idea.
Speaker 1:Uh, so, um, I got. My parents were divorced early when I was young. Uh, so, um, she had the idea of my. I had a cousin who went ROTC and went to Vietnam, uh, was in the Air Force. So she was very adamant that you are going to go into the military, whether it's ROTC or whatever. So, um, I said, well, I'm going to try to go to West point. Then, cause I got to go to ROTC, Might as well go to the, might as well go to the premier Academy.
Speaker 1:So I applied and was accepted when graduated in 1988.
Speaker 3:Wow, that's a. That's a rare experience in our young listeners. Um, there's a bunch of academies out there. It's a great opportunity. It's an incredible resume piece. Every branch um has an Academy. Coast Guard, um Navy Air Force has a beautiful Academy in Colorado and Pete Navy, I'd throw that out there. Um, but for our young listeners out there, and we have a bunch of police explorers that get right in and there's a great opportunity really to set your whole career up. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Oh, it's a, it was a character building experience. Um, it was. It helped me obviously in this job. Um, uh, as far as the stress goes, I mean you're, you're carrying a pretty heavy workload, you work time management and you work, uh, uh, a lot of back. I mean, back then there was, there was a lot of uh, you know, yelling and a lot of performing under pressure.
Speaker 2:Is it like that in the entire four years that you're at?
Speaker 1:No, so the first year, the first year is the worst. Um, the way I explain it is everything that you do is wrong and there's four people there to explain it to you in a not so nice way that you're doing it wrong. Um, you know, there's some yelling and some other things involved. Um, and the first year, I mean you're, we were required to you. You memorize certain bits of knowledge that at the time, or or you think, are like why am I doing this? I mean, we, every day, we had to memorize the breakfast, lunch and dinner menus. We had to memorize, uh, had an article in the New York times, but you couldn't do one, because if they came to Clint and said, hey, you mean article in New York times and he did your article, well, you better have another one. So you basically had to the whole front page. You had to kind of have an idea of what you know talking about an article there.
Speaker 1:Um, so your, your first year is the worst. It's absolutely worse. So during the academic year, it's not as bad, as far as I don't want to call it hazing, but the, the uh, the rough treatment, because it's it's academics and academics took a, took a priority. There was quiet time and things like that. But, um, after the first year, it was, it was fun, it was, it was a lot of fun.
Speaker 3:First year was horrible, yeah, so graduated from West Point with a degree.
Speaker 1:Engineering.
Speaker 3:Engineering. Good Lord, man. So you're not just pretty, you're smart too. Yeah, wow, wow. Engineering degree. What was your MOS?
Speaker 1:I went in as a, an armor officer, so I started off on tanks. Uh, I always wanted to be a cop. Uh looked at going to the MPs and got some advice. Uh, my sophomore junior year from a captain who was in said hey, go combat arms first, and then you could branch transfer if you decide.
Speaker 3:That was sound advice. It was an MP and it was not a good experience.
Speaker 1:It was it was sound advice and that's what I did. I went um, went armor, second armor division um. Hell on wheels, joe.
Speaker 3:Tovar's going to dig this. Oh yeah, big time.
Speaker 1:Second armor division, um big patent fan. So that was. That was kind of cool. Hell yeah, uh went desert shield, desert storm, and then um came back and did my, tried to, or did my. Branch transfer was in the MPs for a short period of time.
Speaker 3:Nice, did your hitch got out? How did that evolve? Well, you ended your career as a military police.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 3:Is that what did you have family and law enforcement or is that what kind of gave you a taste of of, maybe, civilian law enforcement?
Speaker 1:I didn't. I always, I always wanted to be a policeman. I was always, you know, even as a little kid, you know, walking around I was enamored by the you know, the police. They were just, you know. I thought they were cool. You know you play cops and robbers. I was always wanting to be the cop, not the robber. So, plus, you know, if I ended up being the robber, my mom would beat my butt. So, uh it was. It was just something I always, I always wanted to do that. And, um, before I got out, they were doing reduction in force and we went to a briefing and I was sitting next to a major and he looked at me and says hey, lieutenant, not trying to tell you your business, but I had the same briefing back in the seventies after Vietnam and the, you know, the triangle was flipped. They didn't need at that time, they didn't need the junior officer, or at this time they didn't need the junior officers. He goes. And they came in one day and just handed guys pink slips and said, hey, thanks for your service, you're done, he goes. So if you're thinking of another career, you might want to do it.
Speaker 1:And I remember sitting in the second armored division movie theater going. You know I always wanted to be a cop and I'd hate to be, you know, 70, 80 years old sitting on the front porch going. Man, I wonder if I could have done that. So I'm like I think this is the time to do it. So that's, it's just something I always wanted to do. It's funny because even when I got to Garland in my interview board like what are you doing here? You know, like I just want to be a cop. I always wanted to be one. I mean I have a lot of classmates that are cops, actually, um, somewhere FBI. I have other classmates that are generals now and, uh, heads of companies. I mean I actually, I actually was in um in my company, the CEO of 711, joe DePinto. He was in my cadet company, wow.
Speaker 2:So it's kind of cool, you get free free. Uh, gold, big gold.
Speaker 3:So what base were you at when you uh ETS?
Speaker 1:Fort Hood.
Speaker 3:Okay, so you're already in Texas.
Speaker 1:Yep, that was. That was my first, first and only duty station One I picked. I always wanted to come to Texas.
Speaker 2:Can't say Fort Hood, yeah, something else now. Fort Hood when I was there Kovos, Kovos and I came from outside, but I almost got him to something else now, but it was.
Speaker 1:It was Fort Hood when I was there.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I got a kid at Fort Gordon, naval intel. That's no longer Fort Gordon, apparently they had to change their name too.
Speaker 2:Um, how? How were you when, whenever you got out of the military? What age?
Speaker 1:Uh, 25, 26. Okay.
Speaker 2:Okay, go ahead, glenn Yep.
Speaker 3:You've done your tour of duty serving your country. You got a degree in engineering, west point grad. How do you go from beautiful Colleen to beautiful Garland, from one metropolis to the?
Speaker 1:so I, for one of the first places I applied to was the FBI. Um, because that's just, I mean, you know, I thought that that was a cool thing to do, um, and I took the test. They asked me when I went down there. Uh, they actually pulled me out of the test and asked me if I spoke Italian and I said, well, not, not like you want me to. I said I can understand it. I said, uh, I said, but I don't. I like if I'm sitting around people I can tell you. Hey, this is what they're talking about, but not like you need me to. Um, so, uh, they said, yeah, well, you know your chances with your degrees, you know, probably probably not that great, cause I wasn't a lawyer, I wasn't an accountant, I was just a general, uh and degree, uh, so I'm like, okay.
Speaker 1:So then, um, I applied to Dallas, cause you could. I figured I wanted to go to big city. Um, so I went to Dallas. That, and because you took the test, you did everything like in three days. So I stayed with my she's now my sister-in-law and, um, when I was taking the test I went to the back. Then we had phone books, nobody, quite knows what that is right now.
Speaker 1:And I went to the yellow pages under police departments and so I started naming off departments that were nearby and got to Garland. I go hey, what about Garland? She goes, yeah, that's cause she grew up in Mesquite. And so she's like, yeah, garland, she goes, that's, that's a nice city. She was, I think you like it it's. It's not too small, not too big, it's, it's probably medium size. So I called up and I said, hey, I don't want to apply to be a policeman. And they said, well, that you know the test isn't going to be for a while, but we'll put your name down on this car. It was Anthony Denney, uh and uh went up there, took the test and and got hired.
Speaker 3:So what year was that Uh?
Speaker 1:1992.
Speaker 3:She was like class 36, 35, 35. Okay.
Speaker 1:So at the time was the was the biggest class, it's it's.
Speaker 2:they've had bigger ones since, but I sense he was going to say in the best.
Speaker 1:It was the best. We still have a lot of guys.
Speaker 3:I just want to throw it out there how many do you have in your class?
Speaker 1:with 35? Wow, no kidding, yeah, it was huge. We had guys coming in as and I asked at the time like because if you look on the board you know anybody who's been to the academy can look on the board, look on the walls. They have the pictures of all the academies and you know there was like two guys, three guys, five guys, 10 guys and all here's us for like 35, like what happened? And they said well, over the years they just, for whatever reason, just weren't hiring people, they weren't keeping up with kind of the the departures and the retirement and they're like oh boy, we're in trouble now.
Speaker 1:So now we got to. You know, push big academies out. So I had over 400 people think 450 people took the test. Wow.
Speaker 3:Class 35,. Class number 35, 35 people. I was 38, class 38, with 31 in it. How many did you graduate out of 35?
Speaker 1:I don't know, not all 35. I can tell you that yeah.
Speaker 3:I figured that garland's academy back in the day was salty, salty. It was sporty. It was sporty. You were better served in law enforcement Knowing. You know in the career you've built and all you've accomplished. You've served the community and your country better in the role you did, in my opinion, than if you had gone to the FBI.
Speaker 1:I agree, thank you, I think so. I don't think I would have fit in, probably well over there.
Speaker 3:You've done a lot, seen a lot, affected a lot of change that I think would have been missed. I think your abilities and the change you've helped affect across Texas law enforcement would have been missed out. I appreciate that Greatly missed out.
Speaker 1:Actually, in hindsight, I'm glad I didn't get hired there. I'm glad I went to garland. It was looking back and even when I went there, I think it was a perfect place for me.
Speaker 2:And I think let's touch on this real quick you work at garland PD have for many, many, many years. But look at the impact that you've had across Texas and that for the listener out there that's just now starting their career. You may go to Mesquite, you may go to Jefferson PD, you may go to Marshall PD, you may go to Houston. Don't be so focused on the fact that you can have a positive impact across Texas, and I think that's really what drives home. The point is that, again, you've been at garland PD for many years and look at the impact you've had across the state, if not the nation, you know. So kudos to you for doing that. Of course, we're going to work by the dive off into your tactical career, because Clint talks, it's, it's, it is astonishing what you've accomplished and what you've been through. So kudos to you for doing that, man. Thank you.
Speaker 3:The cool is, when I retired from garland and took this role, we travel the state and so literally people laughing like my family jokes that you know somebody in every agency and I'm like, well, once you've traveled the state, enough, if somebody calls and says, hey, I need to contact at Amarillo, I can get you on the phone with somebody in Amarillo and you we feel like we get to be known or have good contacts around the state. But what's funny is you're still at garland and everywhere I go I'm like, yeah, I'm retired garland PD. Oh, dude, you know lieutenant Dan. I'm like, shit, yeah, no matter where I go. Did you know lieutenant Dan? I'm like, yeah, I know, lieutenant.
Speaker 1:It's funny because I, you know I don't realize it. But then these things pop up and then you know, I tell people I go look, if you want to get ahold of me, if you call the Garland police department, if you call the garland police department right now and said I need to talk to lieutenant Dan, it would go to my extent. Everybody in the building knows it, would all the, all the, you know the dispatcher, everybody knows exactly who that is and and I'm, and they're like are you serious? I'm like, yes, I'm totally serious, because most people can't pronounce my last name. So I go, lieutenant Dan, they know who that is, or Dino, or.
Speaker 3:Dino.
Speaker 1:Dino.
Speaker 3:That's cool, man, that's. That's really really cool, cause I'm not bullshit and whether it's a tiny agency or a big agency, everybody's like dude, you know, got garland Dino or lieutenant Dan, or that's. That's a cool accomplishment to realize the change that you've affected and for it to be positive.
Speaker 2:You don't let me know it is. You know, tolero it.
Speaker 3:But but so yeah. So um, get out of the Academy. Academy was sporty back in the day. Um go to patrol. Um, my first memory of you was in gangs. How long did you do in patrol?
Speaker 1:Uh, I think it was two, about two, three years Cause. Then they started the gang unit.
Speaker 1:That's my first memory of you, and I was in I was one of the first, uh first guy in the full time. You had to like part time guys at first, um, cause they were still wrapping their heads around the fact that we had a gang problem. Um, so they had these part time guys. You'd work a couple hours after your shift. I was, or I worked, evening shifts, so you'd work. You know, get off at 10, you work 10 to two. Uh, you know, over time they were there's over time stuff. Uh, then they had a full time one. So then I was gang unit and then I went to narcotics for a while, did uniform narcotics, um, was back to patrol, was the quarter master, which was probably one of the best jobs I have had. Uh, cause I learned so much about the purchasing system and how to get stuff, um, how to pay for stuff, all the different. You know methods to do that.
Speaker 3:That's something else I want to dive in there too, cause I told him a funny story about you. I'm like when we have Dino on. He's one of those guys that if you ever mentioned and we could sure could use this. Don't be shocked in a week when Dan shows up with it. You're like where'd you get that from?
Speaker 1:And he's like just I have a guy, Just don't. That's one of my favorites, I have a guy. If I don't have a guy, I have a guy who has a guy and I can find it.
Speaker 3:So before bear cats and all that in military surplus MRAPS came along, we were still told station. I mean, this is I guess in the nineties. Swat guys are like dude we need an armored car.
Speaker 3:We need an armored car. And somebody shows up in a bank armored car. I can remember by being like where the hell did you get that from Danny's like we're good, but we have an armored vehicle Now. Then he got everybody to go in and, you know, cut hatches for officer down, rescue and put rails on it and was getting stuff provided for us to be able to do it and it wasn't the. It wasn't the prettiest armored car around, but we damn sure had an armored car. It didn't cost, cause budgets are always tight. And I can remember people being like where the hell do you find that? Just, we have an armored car, Don't worry about that.
Speaker 2:That's how it was in the Marines, that's all sure Could use a GP tent.
Speaker 3:The next day one shows up to captain's like where the hell that come from, captain?
Speaker 2:you don't, you don't really want to ask early nineties movie colors came out, bloods and crypts were hopping.
Speaker 3:Early nineties man, you guys. I can remember being a young, young officer thinking, dude, I want to be in the game unit, so freaking it was fun there was, there was a, we had a. There's a lot of stuff going on and y'all just roamed free reign Yep Jump talk calls. If it sounded gang related, y'all, y'all showed up.
Speaker 1:Yep, it was a, it was actually back then. There was actually like turf, Um, not like it is now. They're all over. There's hybrid, and then I was a supervisor over the gang unit here recently. Uh, hybrid gangs and they're all mixing together, whereas I mean when I was there it was like if you went to Embry park that's where the East park Crips were and they all wore, and they was just like the movies, they all wore blue, they all hung out over there. If you went to the West side, it was all bloods, they all wore red, I mean like decked out in red bandanas hanging down, just just like the movie. Uh, and they were on the West side and the East side didn't go to the West side. I mean it was just like that.
Speaker 1:The Hispanic gangs were kind of in the middle. Uh, we had some Asian gangs that were that were pretty, uh, pretty violent, pretty bad guy. I mean they would. You know it's funny, we would joke because the the other gangs would be like, yeah, we're going to fight, we're going to meet here and fight and they maybe show up and maybe they this fight, whatever. The Asian gang guys would show up and they'd all have guns, all it was, it was, uh, they were. They were kind of ahead of their time. They were doing cloning phones, they were doing credit card stuff counterfeiting. I mean they were. They were into a lot more, uh, sophisticated crimes.
Speaker 3:I guess right on their own A lot.
Speaker 1:Yes, they did, they did I. It's funny, they had this. Um, I remember we were at the El Pujol one night and doing some FIs and there was this there's white kid there and he was hanging out with the Asian kids and he had this tattoo on his arm and it was Chinese writing and I asked him I go, what is that? What's your tattoo mean? He goes. I mean it's like love, I go, I go. Are you sure he goes? What do you mean I go? Would you do you speak or read Chinese? He's like well, no, I said well, how do you know he goes? Well, my friend told me I go. Well, how do you know? Your friend didn't give you the Chinese word for dumbass and you had dumbass on your. He kind of looks me goes. Never really thought of that. I go.
Speaker 3:Well, it's too late now I mean, I guess you can turn into something else.
Speaker 1:But you know, but they were, they were a little more sophisticated. I mean the other guys were doing typical, typical stuff. I mean they'd have some guns, drugs. But the Asian guys were, they were, they were pretty violent guys.
Speaker 3:She told me offline you've been at Garland 31 years.
Speaker 1:Started 31 this couple days ago.
Speaker 3:And been on SWAT 28. Yep, yeah, um, how long you been a lieutenant.
Speaker 1:Uh 2011, 11 years. 10, 11 years.
Speaker 3:State on SWAT is kind of SWAT commander, SWAT advisor as a lieutenant now or all what you've never been off, right that.
Speaker 1:I went off for a short period of time. When you get promoted, you go off for a little bit. Um, it's, it's another funny story. So, uh, I was off the team. I was off the team and we called the timeout period and your timeout. So I was in timeout and so they were there, was you know? Hey, uh, you know, if it's SWAT business, it's SWAT business and you don't. If you're not in there, you don't get involved in it. So I'm like they would come to me and they go hey, we need to order blah, blah, blah, whatever it is, and widgets. I'm like, hey, man, sorry, I'm not on the. They said it come to you. I go well, I don't do that anymore, I can't do that, I can't. You know, I'm not on the team there. Okay, well, who should we go get? I go, I don't go us, you know whoever. And so after, I think, a few days and a few weeks after that, they're like, okay, he needs to come back because we can you're back on your back, and that's just during the promotional process.
Speaker 1:If well, once you get, if you, once you promote the supervisor, you're you're off the team and you come back as a swallow. If there's an opening, they'll put you back on as a supervisor.
Speaker 3:Talk about. You know, garland in the nineties was salty and and we did a lot of aggressive police work and a lot of our guests. We talk about how police work's changed and and it's evolved and and necessarily so in some instances. But a lot of it's changed. But a side effect of law enforcement change and overall squat squats had to change. The tactics have changed, the optics have changed. Um, and I know guys our age, it's hard to. I was talking to a gaurage a couple of months ago and he's like dude, they've gone to surrounding, call out, I'm out on that, I'm not. And he acknowledged that there's probably some some upsides to it, but he's like I just don't want to change, I'm not going to do that, I don't want to change and I see a lot of guys struggle to evolve as law enforcement changes. Have you guys in squats experienced that? I mean it's and we'll lead into the road the A's prosecuting SWAT um for for justified use of force. But tell me about how that's changed.
Speaker 1:So I think a lot of it is, uh, technology driven. Um, you know, younger guys now, everything they have. So when I started right before I started I should say so they had rifles with, literally had SL 20s with, um, uh, hose clamps clamping the light to the, to the go. I mean I'm literally that's what they had, that, in short, cut down shotguns. Um, obviously that's evolved now. That's, if you showed up with that they'd be like what the heck are you? But I mean they, that's what they used, because that's what they had. I mean, it reminds me of, you know, the, the, the SAS, when they do the Iranian embassy and they got the flashlights you know, kind of on top of the guns and you talk to guys. They're yeah, that's what we had. That was, that was state of the art. I mean we, that was state of the art. Now, obviously there's, you know, led lights and I mean I remember my first surefire light was 60 lumens with two batteries and that was like the cool thing and you had one on. Your pistol is like, you know, a foot long and you know everything's kind of changed in that respect.
Speaker 1:Um, but even technology, there's drones, there's robots, uh, there's, um, you know bear cat. I mean we had a bank armor car that we got from a guy. Uh, they were giving them away. So he just actually made friends with the guy. He's from New Jersey and, uh, they had to. They had to. One was that too. It was the armored transport was the name of the company that have office in Vegas, or they had an office in Dallas and the stipulation was you could have it but you had to go get it. So he kind of brother. We had a little brother in law deal because he's from New Jersey and he liked me, I was from New York, so he got me one in Dallas and we just went and picked it up and basically, like Clint said, just showed up on the back oh, here you go, here's your armor car. We just got a pain and do whatever. But uh, of course, you know now there's bear cats and we're we're fortunate enough for our city Now we have two or two bear cat city.
Speaker 1:Uh, but a lot of it now is techno. I mean things in the past where we would send people in to go do things. Now they're sending robots, sending drones. I mean it's and it's safer and I get it, it's, it's kind of it's a little different from what we did. Um, you know what I kind of liken it to? Um, you know episodes of Adam 12, you know you watch, I watch Adam 12 and then you know they're getting out of the car, he's worried about putting his hat on and his night stick and there was no swat.
Speaker 1:So they had to take care of business the way they did and some guys just get used to that and now. But now we have these, these other options that we didn't have before. So some of it's a little growing pains getting used to it and the big challenge is adapting the tactics to use these things safely. But at the end of the day, as I like to tell people who do surround and call outs and these other tactics and use robots and drones, I go, well, if they don't come out, if you're sending the robot in and there's the guy and he says, come out, no, I'm not coming out. Okay, well, I'm gonna send my drone in. Okay, send your drone in. And there he is. Hey, come out, no, I'm not coming out. Well, sooner or later somebody is going to have to go in there and get that guy or girl. Um, so, and even if, even if you clear the house, somebody still has to go in there to make sure that it's clear, because it's not clear until the team leader says that it's clear.
Speaker 1:So, um, you know, some of that's technology driven and and, and I'm glad we have it, I mean we had, we were fortunate we have those tools and we use the tools. But from our perspective, at least on our team, hey, the guys know, hey, sooner or later somebody's gonna have to go in there, we're gonna have to go in there. Uh, and I think there's there's been this uh kind of risk averse to going in, which, hey, if that's, if that's your thing, I get it, but soon, like I said, uh, you know, sooner or later somebody's gonna have to go in there to make sure that it's clear, to make sure you have everybody Cause even if you surround and call out and people come out, you still got to make sure they're all, they all came out and not somebody's still not in there hiding.
Speaker 2:So, uh, well, and to Clint's point for years, and it probably was like this when, when both of you started, um, I think we as a profession, across the nation, you may go to Louisiana and run a warrant.
Speaker 2:Let's just say, for, for whatever reason, garland's got a homicide suspect and you've got CID guys that are going to go to Louisiana.
Speaker 2:Let's say that you guys are going to go over their, their tactics in Louisiana and how they do. Things are still going to be different to the you know to this day, but for the most part, if you linked up with a Louisiana team or a Houston team or a Dallas PD team or Mesquite, the tactics are going to be the same for the most part. And I think we as a profession and tactics in general have evolved to where we're all on the same music, we're all on the same sheet of music, and I think that's where we'll get into it here a little bit by TTP away. Uh, just how important it is that we all get there, because we've seen you know the tragic events that have happened like an Allen, we've seen the tragic events that have happened in Dallas. You know the Dallas five, and so I think it's good for us as a profession to all be uniform on how we respond, how your tactics are, and so forth.
Speaker 1:I think, in general, uh and the. The uh example I was using is the barricaded person. Right, you have a barricaded person, uh, and they're in there and you're going to get them out, You're going to resolve the situation. But if you took four different teams, they may, they may resolve it differently, they may use different techniques, they may use different technology, they may use different tactics, but they're all on the same page of of hey, this is how we need to resolve it. Right, there's a there's. They're not going to differ on that. Now, how they do it may be different, but the goal is going to be the same. The goal will be peaceful resolution, hopefully, Uh, and that's what they're striving for and there, that's what they're going to do. Um, again, how they get there different doesn't mean that our way is the right way and your way is the wrong way. That just means this is how we do it. Now, some of that is based on the city you're in and your department. What is your good? And that's kind of like with TTPOA.
Speaker 1:We provide training. We don't tell departments how to use the training. We just give you the training example explosive breaching. We provide explosive breaching instructors. We have there's probably three or four big names in the country and we have all of them, but they all teach classes for us. We don't tell you which one to go to. You go to which one you want.
Speaker 1:How you implement that, that is up to you. We don't tell you how to implement it, Um, and we're not going to tell you how to implement it because it's not our business. Um, what we're allowed to do in Garland may differ from what they're allowed to do in Plano, what they're allowed to do in Frisco or Dallas, how they implement explosive breaching, when they're allowed to do it and how they're allowed to do it. It's different and that's okay, but they still have. The point is they still have it. It's just how do we implement it and TTP away. We don't get in the business of telling you how to implement it. We're just telling you you want explosive breaching training. Here it is Pick one, use it, adopt it, adapt it, get rid of it, whatever you want to do.
Speaker 3:Yep, and a great example of that that just occurred to me Traveling around the state. We end up on scenes or or active SWAT calls, and I may arrive at one, and they're like yeah, we have a barricaded person, we're going to dump three ferret rounds in there and if he don't come out we're freaking going in and you may go to another one where they've dumped so many ferret rounds into the house. It looks like a Swiss cheese and they're going to wait a long, long long. But at the end of the day they both know at some point they're going in there to get him out. But one may be shoot a ferret round.
Speaker 1:Yep, he didn't come out, let's go, boy, you know, stuck and go, and another one may be 76 ferret rounds and 18 hours, but at the end of the day you got to, you got to go get it All right. Recently, I think, harris County had some deputies get shot. They had the guy barricaded and they used a rook and they dismantled the house. Yeah, I mean, and that's remodeled, remodeled remodeled, remodeled, you know.
Speaker 1:But again you go back reimagined 10, 15 years ago there was no rook. So guess what? You're going to shoot fair rounds in there and if he doesn't come out, guys are going to go in there and get them. But now we have the rook. So why would you I mean from my, why would you not use it? If the boss says we can use it, hey, we're going to use the rook, we're going to send that machine up there and we're going to remodel the house till the guy comes out. And guess what? He did yeah.
Speaker 3:We reimagined his house for him. That's right, which was around.
Speaker 2:That was. That was the whole that was awesome.
Speaker 3:There was some great memes out of that.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so the SWAT team, the technology. We've had a pair of lanes, one of the leading agencies in the country with their drone system, and negotiations have have evolved and at Garland our negotiators are are the SWAT team or a branch?
Speaker 1:they are a branch. Yes, under the SWAT team.
Speaker 3:Yes, Do you see the technology changing across the country like that In general, or most of them going to explosive breaching, or a lot of them going to surround and call out to using drones to clear a house before they go in? Or is that still more spotty than the norm?
Speaker 1:I think it depends. I would say I hate to use situationally dependent, but it's situationally dependent. We have done surrounding callouts before. We have not used surrounding call out, we've used drones. I mean, some of the thing with the drones is if I send the drone to the house and the guy closes all the doors, it was try to, you know, kind of hard. You know, we've used robots, we've used the bomb robot can open doors, I think it. I think it just depends on the situation.
Speaker 1:What I think is important is that you don't get tied to one thing, that you don't get tied to hey, this is what we do all the time, every time. Because one of the things that I've learned is if, if all I ever do is surrounding call out, but I have hostage rescue as one of my tasks, and then I have to use hostage rescue and I have to go dynamic to go rescue somebody, but I don't ever practice it. It's harder to ramp it up than it is to ramp it down. So if I practice, I can practice dynamic stuff and then if I need to ramp it down, I can ramp it down, but it's a lot harder to go the other way. But I think that's one of the one of the things that we need to guard against is hey, this is what we do all the time, every time, and we don't do anything else because, I mean, this isn't that kind of a business.
Speaker 3:I think that's a great point. And second point, the only one dark day that I can remember at Garland regarding our SWAT team is there was a, I think, sovereign citizen, I can't remember. He was out in Vanzant County. We had a bunch of active warrants and y'all were going to get him and a captain at the time who's no longer there. I think God decided it was too dangerous and I remember visiting with all my SWAT buddies and they were thinking you know, being a patrolman is kind of dangerous, being on SWATs kind of dangerous, kind of everything we do is dangerous.
Speaker 3:That's why we do it Well yeah, it's fun and dain't, but that's the only really dark day that stands out to me and I don't know if you recall the incident, but every y'all were spun up. It was, it was go spun up and it was decided.
Speaker 1:I remember only I was a new guy, so I didn't really have much to say in that one. I mean, I do remember getting spun up and I do remember, hey, we're going and hey, this is cool. And then you know it's kind of like getting ready for the Super Bowl. And then you tell you, hey, take your uniform off, you're not, you can't play, you know but any other excuse, like we have surveillance and he's probably not anything other than yeah, that was kind of too dangerous.
Speaker 1:We're catching bad guys is dangerous, and that's we're in a dangerous business. I mean, that's what you have SWAT for, right? I mean, if it to me it's. Yes, the patrolman's job is so dangerous. Walking up to a car is very dangerous, Especially don't know who's in there.
Speaker 3:Walking up to a house, walking up to a house.
Speaker 1:I mean there's, there's plenty of, there's plenty of danger. I mean that's, the job is dangerous. But that's what to me, that's what you have SWAT for, right? If this thing rises to the level, to where it may exceed the capabilities of the regular patrol guy, because we have special weapons hence the name right and and tactics and other things that we can use to help, so why would you not use them? I mean, that's what they're there for, so why would you not use them?
Speaker 3:Talking about dangers of walking up to a house. What year was your shot to your helmet?
Speaker 1:That was 1998 July 16th 1998.
Speaker 3:You mind sharing with our listeners about that.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So, um, we were doing a drug rate and ball springs, we were going to the house. Uh, in ball springs it was the second the week before we had hit the house, um, he what, the guy, the bad guy, wasn't there, uh, but we seized his rifle as SKS and a thousand rounds of rifle ammunition, which I'm thankful that we did that that week. Uh, the second week we're going back. Um, there's probably only two times in my career that I have had the feeling like, hey, something bad is going to happen. Uh, one was there and one was May 3rd, uh, which I got a really another funny story about that. Uh, so we're loading up, we're getting ready to go in the van and, uh, the, uh, the narc whose case it was gets off. The funny goes hey, I just got a call from the CI. The bad guy's got access to another gun, and I remember, looking back, uh, john Atkins was my cover guy. I was going to be number one, he's number two. I said, hey, stay close to me. I got a bad feeling about this one. Um, so we roll up to the house. We have um Mark squad there. They're doing a deal right at the front door and they look at us. Guy closes bag. I closed the door and the other guy just kind of walks off the Walks off the porch like nothing. And I remember telling him to get on a specific type of ground and he is not listening to me, he is just just walking. And I remember thinking to myself why isn't he running? He should be running, I've been running. Of course these things are playing in your head, but it's going a lot faster than what you think it is. And he just he just keeps walking so we throw him down. I remember thinking, man, I think we're getting set up this something, something's wrong, and throw him down on the ground. About that time he starts shooting out though he had a converted garage so he would shoot out that we broke the window as a distraction. And he starts shooting out the window and then he leans to the other side and shoots out the front door.
Speaker 1:Tj Pilling was the Was the slammer. He gets hit in the finger, grabs his hand and he says I'm all, I'm hit and he rolls off the porch and goes down onto the ground. About that time I get hit in the helmet and and it hurt it's. That's why I know like in football they don't like hands of the heck that it hurt. It knocked my glasses crooked, kind of snapped my head to the side and I Remember standing.
Speaker 1:I also got hit in the chest, which I didn't know at the time. It hit me in the plate and I remember standing there thinking, hmm, just got shot in the head, but I'm obviously not dead because I'm still looking around. I should go somewhere else so I don't get shot again. Where should I go? Oh, tj's on the ground. He's a senior guy, I should probably be over there.
Speaker 1:And I dove on the ground and and that's really the, that's what was going in my head and I thought it was going that slow because I remember asking a guy there like, hey, I wasn't like standing there, just in there like no man, you hit, you got hit and you dove on the ground and then I realized oh, tj's not moving.
Speaker 1:So we grabbed him and dragged him across like three yards to To safety and then when they took him to the hospital, they thought he got run over by a car because he was wearing shorts and his legs were all torn up and they kept going oh, my god, your legs, what happened? He's no my finger. I got shot. He goes. No, no, my god, your legs, he's like that. What, what happens? That was from my friend saving my life, dragging me across three front yards in ball springs. So I I got hit in the helmet, which was a Funny when we get to militarization was a military surplus helmet that we got from that 1033 program Yep, thank God. I hit in the rifle plate, which is very similar to the plates that they use in the 1033 program as a military Rifle plate what kind of rounds you get hit with I got hit with a 9 millimeter.
Speaker 1:It was a High-point serial number, scratched off model. A high point high point best handgun ever made?
Speaker 3:yep, so what distance do you think roughly just?
Speaker 1:ballpark. He was probably Shooting through from inside the house 15, 20 yards. Well damn, because he was, he was, I say, deep in the house the way like if you walked in the front door there's a wall to your right and that wall separated the grass. He would just lean one side to the other side, shoot at us.
Speaker 3:Did you get almost double tapped, or were they back-to-back or were they?
Speaker 1:I don't know, I know, I know the one, I think the one off the, the one off the ram, because it hit TJ's finger, hit the ram, and then Rick shade hit me in the helmet and I think the other one was just right after because it was. I mean, it was an absolute center punch right between the L and the I and I didn't know I they later on they're like hey man, you look like you got shot. I'm like no, I think that's when I dove on the ground. They're like no, I think you got shot. Pull your plate out. And I'm like oh snap, yes, I did.
Speaker 2:So you still got that plate I do, that's all it was funny.
Speaker 1:So I was saved 2300. So I got to go to the ICP conference that year and meet all the vest people. So I learned all about body armor and you know why, the why the warrantee to the way they are. And then, guy from point, it was a point blank plate and he goes. He was a NYPD, esu guy, retired and he was super cool guy and he's like hey, he goes. You, you get into a lot of stuff. That's a five by seven. I'm sending you a 10 by 12.
Speaker 3:You need a little bit more protection.
Speaker 1:So he said, we had 10 by 12 instead. So it was it was pretty cool.
Speaker 2:That's awesome. You said you mentioned May 3rd. For the listener or viewer out there that doesn't know what May 3rd is, let's dive off in the net just for a second.
Speaker 1:Okay so May 3rd 2015. We had Isis terrorist attack in Garland, so we had been planning for that happen on a Sunday. It was a Sunday, and reason I remember was I went to church that morning and so I was. Before I was leaving. I was doing the holy water and my wife's like, are you just gonna jump in there? I'm like, honey, I got a bad feeling about this. I'm just just, you know, getting ready, so, and then that's. That was the second time that you know. Hey, I got a bad feeling, something's gonna happen.
Speaker 3:And, of course, obviously it did so wow, back up to May 3rd, there had been two previous attacks on Freedom of expression. January, I believe, was Copenhagen, denmark, during a similar event in Copenhagen.
Speaker 1:Yes, so he, I actually did so. One of the things I got when I did my master's Capstone, it was it was I did in Homeland Security with a concentration and counterterrorism. That was one of the things I looked, one of those I looked up and what I found was it was eerily similar To our deal. It was a panel discussion, same, I mean, same kind of set, only difference it was like in a star with, I guess, their version of coffee shop, so, but it was a panel discussion. Same format, same everything. Guy shows up, tries to kill the, the, the artist, but he doesn't make it through the security he gets, he gets Confronted, it runs, I think, in the back alley or something, and they end up. They end up shooting. He tried to stab the. I was gonna try to stab the guy and he ended up getting shot. And then obviously, charlie Hebdo was the other one.
Speaker 3:So January, the same year, 2015, we have Copenhagen, denmark, february, I believe, we have Charlie Hebdo, yep, which, for our listeners, that was the one where you can see the police officer trying to run through the streets In France and the guys dressed in black the terrorist, basically run and when the officer trips over the curb, they stand over and execute him.
Speaker 3:So we have one very similar event to the garland event in January. We have another one in February. May 3rd is the garland event and a lot of times we hear the cliche that the greatest Indicator of the future is the past, especially the immediate past. Yep, you and I talked prior to that May 3rd event. You felt concerned. That was, there was legitimate concerns, there was a legitimate possibility that, based on not just your experience, but you have two prior events clearly to be some indicators in addition to some other Intel that you guys were receiving. But Did you fit? Was that just a Dan gut hunch Telling your wife that this just feels like it's not gonna be a good day? Or was it a combination of your experience telling you all this information?
Speaker 1:I think it was a combination. So the it was, it was the gut, based on Just prior incidents. Because I mean you look at prior into, like you said, you look at prior instance, you go, okay, every time somebody draws a picture of this Prophet Muhammad, guys show up with guns and try to shoot people. So not good, yeah. So I mean it happened twice already. So I mean I think that's what's gonna happen here. I think of course you get some other Intel stuff and you're like you know there's a lot of people talking about this thing. It's just Combinate, like I said, combination of hunch and just the Intel and prior events where this has happened.
Speaker 1:You know, I remember I remember telling somebody, one of the in the chain command asked me Well, in the in the planning, because I mean we were planning for months and months and months, hey, do we have a chase car? And I think part of it was. I don't think they understood because we had the deal in January, the stand with the Prophet event that had occurred, whereas very protester, heavy, a lot of protesters, and this deal there were no protesters, so was they weren't signing up like they were for that other one, and I think that kind of gave a little sense of, well, this is gonna be another protester event. I'm like, no, I don't, this is gonna be a little different. And they asked me hey, do you have a chase car? And I said, well, chase car for what? Yeah, and they said, well, you know, in case they drive by, they come drive by and and shoot and leave and take off. And I said, I go, sir, I go. We're not dealing with Johnny, johnny gangbanger, here I go. This is like Johnny Jihad.
Speaker 1:I said these guys are gonna show up, they are gonna get out of their cars with guns and they're gonna kill as many people as they can Until we kill them. That's what they're gonna do, because that's what they. That's, that's what they have done in the past every time this event like these have happened. And this is what I think is gonna happen. And One of the other citizens asked me he was okay, if you were gonna do it, what would you do? I said I would get me and my buddy, we'd have all our guns in the trunk, we'd get our, we'd buy our tickets, we'd show up. I said I wouldn't show up too early, I wouldn't show up too late. Kind of right in the middle. I said I'd park my car in the parking lot just like everybody else, wait for it to get a little bit crowded, pop the trunk, pull Out my guns and start shooting. And of course that's.
Speaker 3:Very similar to what they did.
Speaker 1:He's like how'd you know I go? It's not, it's not that hard to figure out. I mean, I told him you, you pay me to think of these things and that's what I would do if I was gonna do this. This is this is how I would do it and it's.
Speaker 1:It's like I said you, you use your experience, you use past events, and that's even in our briefing. It says, hey, based on prior events, this is what we're planning for. We're planning for guys to show up with guns, personal born IDs and vehicle born IDs, because that's that's what has been used in the past and that's probably what's gonna happen here now. Yeah, could I mean, and I say when I do the debrief yeah, could they have hijacked the plane and crashed it into the building? Yeah, sure, but that's probably not gonna happen. What's more likely to happen is just what happened hey, we're gonna show up with some guns, we're gonna get out and try to shoot people till we get killed.
Speaker 3:In Dan. We communicated prior to May 3rd and Dan had expressed concern to the point that he's not an over-the-top guy, is not a drama queen. But he was like, dude, we need all SWAT out there, we need all of our assets out there, we need our bear cat parked out front as a deterrent, as a as a strong Kind of in your face deterrent. You see that we have assets on the ground here as as a possible deterrent. Had those been followed, had Dan's request been followed, can you say the attack wouldn't have happened? I don't know.
Speaker 3:I've been asked that a lot. I don't know, but if I drove by and Knowing the training that they had some training they were obviously Radicalized, extremely radicalized, not tons of training had. I drove by and saw well, they have a helicopter up, they have a damn imposing looking armored vehicle parked right out in front of. Clearly they have assets here. Maybe it changed there, maybe it would have changed their tactics or maybe they would have done their heat runs like they did and left, but I think certainly a Year concerns prove true.
Speaker 1:I think they had a showed up anyway, I think, because that's the, that's the whole, the whole point. I mean, that's her whole point. Right, they're dying for the cause and I think, if, if they saw that to them, it probably would have looked maybe even more dramatic for them. I don't think anything we would have done was gonna stop them from the from. I don't think they would have gone. I am maybe not today we're gonna come back.
Speaker 1:I think they would have, they would have done it regardless. They were, they were intent on doing it. They've already, they'd already done their research, they'd are, and that's, and that's one of the things. You know, there's a you know a progression of these terrorist attacks in the different stages they go through and at some point I'm again you go back to technology. I don't have to do a drive-by, I can go on Google Maps and see the whole thing, and I'm quite sure they probably did that, because I would have done it. And I'm think they just said, hey, it's you know, hey, this is where we're going, it's game on today and we're going regardless.
Speaker 3:Well, and I think if the intel had been shared, that they were on the ground, in the area at the event, you guys would have certainly had a whole lot different response, more assertive, aggressive response to oh yeah, I mean we could have.
Speaker 1:We could have. Definitely we would have adapted the plan.
Speaker 3:One thing that's cool about Dan is he's always the quiet guy in the room. He's not the loudmouth, obnoxious guy, but he's always the quiet leader guy. The night of the May 3rd attack I was getting phone calls from some of our guys because after they engaged the terrorist and killed them, there was some initial initial beliefs that they're made that may have been a distraction Right and that there was a secondary attack coming. There was a green belt to the west or south of the location then, so a lot of the shooters had to go into helping on a 360 perimeter and one of the first calls I got was somebody whispering and I'm like I can't tell you this is.
Speaker 3:I don't know why you're whispering and it was literally somebody just been involved in the shooting. Who's now on the perimeter, back on the rifle again holding the perimeter, and that event at that event.
Speaker 3:Wow and I'm thinking. I'm thinking a lot of things. Why was a man whispering at me? You know, if you just been involved in a high-stress shooting, we need to get you an attorney out there. If you just been involved in that, maybe, when you don't need to be on your rifle I mean, that's a high, you know shits back, because typically in officers involved in the shooting, they're rotated to the rear in their replace.
Speaker 1:It was kind of funny because I that wasn't lost to me, no and that wasn't a shot of you.
Speaker 3:No, no, no, no. I know, I know things are bad.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, no, when you can't rotate guys right and and I was thinking, well, maybe we can't do that. And I told him hey, right now we don't have, we need you here. So and then kind of you know, kind of my thinking was we shot one guy. I mean, if we shoot another guy, the same deal. I mean, is it really that big a deal? I mean we already shot one, so we should. It's the same continuous incident. So I mean, but yeah, we, we didn't, we didn't, we didn't rotate them out till much later.
Speaker 3:Wow. So the call this calls started coming in literally that quick. They're holding the premier and they're telling me we just smoked some terrorist. I get there really quick and the one thing that was there was a whole lot odd to it.
Speaker 3:But when I pulled up, dan, who's a lieutenant, three down, three or four down from the top, is out there Leading, making calls. Guys over here, you're over there, we need to do this, we need to cover that and it it's important to our listeners to understand you don't have to be the top dog to be leading. And and clearly Dan was leading the entire show out there and people above Dan were looking to him for guidance and direction and it reminded me of we were soldiers and Sergeant Major Plumlee and Colonel Howe, because gunfires going off and everybody's kind of shell shocked and I don't know what the hell's going on. And there's Dan out there. Do this, do that. Hey, we need to cover this. And our attorneys show up and they're like who's in charge? I'm like, well, technically, there's probably some other people in charge, but the only one that's gonna have answers is Dan, so go talk to Dan.
Speaker 3:It's that West Point kicked in. Yeah, oh, yeah Well it was so damn cool to see there, because you show up at a scene, you want to know who's the ice-drinking guy here. None of them were running the show off here.
Speaker 1:Well, we, I had I gotta give, I gotta give kudos and we talked about it offline. I got, I got to give kudos to my. He's now our big chief, but he was assistant. That was his first day as the SWAT chief, oh wow so.
Speaker 1:Course. It's just Brian. Yeah, there's, there's chaos, and I mean, and we're running around and you know, they do this, do this to this, and and it we're at a point where the people we we had evacuated them to the arena, so they're kind of everything's kind of safe for a second, and we just happen to come face-to-face. I mean, just not by Not on purpose, we just we just kind of run into each other and and he looked at me, he's like I have no idea what to do. I need your help. I'm like, hey, sir, look, we're good, they're safe right now. You let me know, you tell me what you want done, we'll make recommendations, we'll, we'll, we'll get it done. Don't worry, we are, we are good.
Speaker 1:And so he made some calls hey, we want them out. Hey, we got him out. We did it. And you know and I always give him kudos every time I do this debrief I there's, I have a picture of them in there and I tell the story because you and I use it as a learning point he trusted us to do what we needed to do.
Speaker 1:He knew we knew what we needed to do, and that's because, prior to this, we would invite him out to training. He would come out and see what we can do, because it's important that he knows. He needs to know hey, what are your capabilities, what can you do and what can't you do, because the day of the incident is not the day to go. Hey, boss, we're gonna put this explosive charge on this door or this car and we're gonna do this, and well, we've done it before. What, what you're gonna do? What Can you explain it? Well, sir, I really don't have time to explain it to you, but and we didn't have to because he knew, hey, these guys know what they're doing. They're not gonna steer me wrong. He trusted us, we trusted him and we got it done, and a lot of guys in his position would not have done that.
Speaker 1:I've seen guys in his position not do that, and then kind of I'm gonna say, mess it up, but mess it like hey, listen, everything's, we're good, you just tell me what you want and I'll give you recommendations. And that was, hey, we wanna move. All I need to know is where do you want him to go? And we'll get him there.
Speaker 3:It's a testament to him as a leader Absolutely To check his ego, to realize he's two or three ranks above you, but that's not his wheelhouse. That is clearly your wheelhouse. And I need to turn to the guy to two ranks.
Speaker 1:Right, no, and I gave him full credit for that it was. It was, it was a really cool thing to see and and you know, it's kind of like that. It's kind of this little bond thing is kind of weird. It's like I said, we just kind of bumped into each other. But again, testament to him and part of that, like I said, we made sure that he knew what we were doing. Hey, we'll do. You know, we'll do what you want. This is what we, this is how I think we need to do this. You tell me how you want it done. And he facilitated it. Hey, this is what I need buses, sir. You got buses, no problem. And he and he helped us out, got us everything that we needed and, like I said, people other people in his position would not have. I've witnessed people in his position in other agencies and other places. So have we not not do that, cause I'm and he's he's.
Speaker 3:He wasn't like that and that's it's like you said, it's a testament to his leadership, cause he well, there was other high ranking officials that were hiding out from having them, either scared or not, mucking decisions that day, and he was, he was Jeff was on the ground. No, he was not, he was he was.
Speaker 1:He was knee deep in the middle of it and, like I said, for being his first day and say welcome to Swat, sir. You know it was. It was really cool to see.
Speaker 3:Well, and if you don't know the answers, at least be there and be in the mix and be available.
Speaker 1:Yep, Well, and and yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3:For our listeners that may not know what we're talking about, it just don't on me, draw the profit event May 3rd 2015 was at the Curtis Coal Event Center in Garland it was. It was made out to be an event to blasphemy a religion blasphemy a religion, but really the spirit as it was related to me was more about the right to free speech that people aren't going to be told what they can or cannot say or draw or do, and in the Muslim faith, any depiction of the prophet Muhammad is sacrilegious. It's forbidden any any photo or depiction of him, and so the event wasn't more so much about drawing him to I guess, disrespect the religion is how it was related to me. It was more about. In America, we don't get told what to do and you're not allowed to tell us when, how or why we can do it. So on this event, there was two or 300 people.
Speaker 1:About two. They had a captive. 200 tickets is what they were allowed.
Speaker 3:So about 200 civilians, probably unarmed.
Speaker 1:Well they were. They couldn't bring their guns in because it was school district building and there was a school. There was technically a school event going on. They had they were doing a graduation rehearsal before that. And the reason I know that is because when we evacuated them all and then they went to go pick up their cars the next day, there was a bunch of guns in their car. I mean, there's they. So they were. They could not be armed inside the building.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 1:So they left there. They were asked to leave her guns in the cars.
Speaker 3:But one thing important that you guys prevented was they began their assault basically when the event indexed.
Speaker 1:Yes, right at the end.
Speaker 3:And the way the Curtis Coel event center is is one side is the door that the masses were hurting out of the terrorist attack from this side of the building. Had they driven past the front of the building and pop the curb, potentially they would have moved down because they had both that AK style format weapons.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 3:Yes, I think one had a full big drum and one had regular magazines.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 3:Um. Had they driven another 300 yards and seen the masses exiting out the potential loss, there has been a whole. The whole turnout in result would have been a whole lot different.
Speaker 1:Yeah, If they'd have. If they'd have pulled forward another I don't know 10, 15 yards, maybe they'd have been parallel to the middle of the parking area where everybody was, and if they'd have waited just a few more minutes, damn, the parking lot would have been full of people at their cars and going to their car, or they would have seen the crowd coming out the doors. Wow.
Speaker 3:And you made a point earlier about. You know these aren't Johnny Gangbanger that's going to do a drive by. These guys were there to party, I mean oh yeah, yeah, I always wonder too because, they had.
Speaker 1:They had a lot of guns and a lot of ammunition, more so than it would appear. I mean, this is just, dan, speculation. You had a lot of guns, a lot of bullets, more than you would need for, hey, I'm just going to go in there, kill a bunch of people and and we're going to leave. I always wondered, hey, were they going to go in there, shoot a bunch of people, leave and then maybe go, because where the cobalt center is there's a bunch of restaurants, there's a hotel. Are they going to try to? Hey, we're going to hit this, and then we're going to leave, we don't get killed, and we're going to go run a, run a muck in the hotel or restaurants.
Speaker 1:I mean, I don't know, that's speculation, but they brought a lot more guns than I guess what they needed for what they were doing. And and you know, part of that speculation is, well, they left their stuff in the car. So you know, I think maybe their plan was hey, we're going to go run out, run in, do some shooting, run out, get back in the car, go somewhere else and do something. I mean, I don't know, but they left a lot of stuff in the car.
Speaker 3:Heavily armed.
Speaker 1:Heavily armed.
Speaker 3:They were there to party.
Speaker 2:Just kind of moving forward. So this happens May 3rd 2015. 2015. You've been on SWAT for how long? At that point 18.
Speaker 1:20 years.
Speaker 2:Wow, Okay, At what point and we you had talked off camera just about your involvement with TTPOA and I'm sure that you probably reflect back on that day and then the you know the day that you were shot as well. At what point did you feel the need to really step in the TTPOA, in this role that you are now, and how, how has that evolved over the 20 years that you've been attending all the stuff with TTPOA?
Speaker 1:So I started out, I was just doing some firearms instruction that was my thing and I was approached by some guys who were with TTPOA actually from Irving, who were on, were involved in TTPOA, they were region directors and other stuff Said, hey, you know, you, you, you, what do you charge to do a class? I'm like I don't charge anything, I just like teaching. Well, you know, hey, if you want to come, we can, we'll pay you. And I'm like, okay, we don't have to. But okay, yeah, I mean I guess I mean I have to take time off.
Speaker 1:Okay, so I started as an instructor and getting guys training and you know, one of the first things I realized is a lot of these guys are paying on their own. They're not as fortunate. Some agencies are more fortunate than others. Some guys are bringing their own ammo. I mean I've done classes for for less than the normal rate, just so guys could come to class because they needed the training We've we have. When I was doing it, we I had class where I brought guys bullets because they were having to buy their own bullets and ship.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Cause I knew it got it. And and and you know I had to ship bullets. I mean it's just. I mean these guys are going out of their way to get themselves trained, which is fascinating because they're doing themselves a service for their community.
Speaker 2:And now and I want to go back just just jump on this quick you know police officers these days are demonized. You know they act like all all we want to do is just hurt people. And the fact that many of our members and listeners that are listening to this right now are spending their own dime, their own money, to expand their training. So, in the event that they do need to need it, it's going to be the probably the worst day of their life they have it.
Speaker 3:Right, and on top of that we have a, we have legislators and community demands. You'd be highly trained, extremely well prepared, but we're not going to give you a damn penny to do it.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:But we're going to hold you to a standard. That's not reasonable and we expect perfection Catch all bad guys smoothly, with no force and perfection. But we don't really want to help fund any training.
Speaker 1:Right, and I have, and and I have a soft spot for those guys. I go out of my way.
Speaker 3:And I don't mean all legislators.
Speaker 1:No, no, I know so just a few. I got involved there and then I'm like, hey, you know what this I'm, it's, it's. We've been a part of the team, has been a part of it, we've gone to competitions, we've gone to the conferences and hey, this is something I want to get involved in. I think it's important. So I say, hey, I want to do whatever I can. So you know, I was like hey boy for a little while just helping out here at the competition, painting targets, doing running, running, whatever running airs.
Speaker 3:Yeah, hey boy.
Speaker 1:And then a spot came open and Gary Heath was the president and he pulled. I never forget I remember his legacy yesterday pulls me aside at this conference. He goes here. You want to be part of the part of the organization? Yes, sir, he goes. Well, he was a. I'm the president, I can appoint people. I'm appointing you, welcome. You know, kind of welcomeable, jump in you and I'm like cool, let's do it, that's awesome. So, started out as region director, was region director, region seven for a while, putting on that's where you you're hosting classes, you're bringing in instructors.
Speaker 2:And for the listener where's region?
Speaker 1:seven so region region seven is is probably one of the smallest geographically, but it's got a lot of agencies in there, so it's Dallas, it's Dallas almost the Fort Worth, and then Fort Worth is region six.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:So we put on a lot of classes, um, bringing a lot of instructors, so did that for a while and then I took Graham Smith spot. So my, my career kind of followed Graham. So Graham was the region director. He moved to director operations. I took his spot as region director. Then he moved to vice president. I became director operations, he became president. I was vice president and then when he um was done, he resigned or got, he retired, um moved off. So then I became, I became president and that's where I'm at now.
Speaker 1:So, um, it's uh, I have huge to me. It's it's very important. Um, I keep in touch. We at the conference I get to see all the past presidents. It's very important to me, uh, to keep them involved. I always call them the special advisor to the president. I mean, one of our, our board members now is Shannon couch. He's, uh, he's a past president, so I have a lot of good advisors. So, um, you know, before I do something stupid I'll always call him go, hey, this is what I'm thinking of doing. Okay, well, maybe you should do this instead. I'm like, okay, yeah, maybe you're right.
Speaker 2:And for the listener, because we've we've had multiple people that are, that have been on the TNPA board Of course, TNPA's mission I'm not going to say it's different than TTPOAs, but it it doesn't. It's not really in sync with what you guys are are trying to accomplish, cause we offer the legal plan and so forth. So, what exactly for the listener out there, two things One, what is TTPOA's mission? Not the number one mission? And two, uh, for the listener or viewer out there that wants to be involved and maybe one day be you, what route would you recommend that they take?
Speaker 1:So, the, the mission of the TTPOA? Um, I haven't. I haven't. It's on our website, but in a nutshell it is. It is to provide training we tried to provide. Our mission is to provide training at, at lower minimal costs to officers. Uh, throughout this, throughout the state of Texas, not in the state of Texas outside anywhere in the in the United States. Um, I think membership is like $25. You can join, uh, it gives you a discount on the classes If you, if you're not a member and you sign up for a class, uh, there's an extra charge and then you become a member.
Speaker 1:So it's kind of kind of fixes itself if you will, uh, and and we provide all kinds of training, whatever uh agencies might need. And the one thing I want to make sure that everybody knows is it's not it's although it's the Texas tactical police officer association. The classes are not just for SWAT guys. We have lots of classes that are for patrol guys. Uh, we have medic classes, we have all kinds of class, we have negotiator classes. So you just you can't don't say, well, I'm not a SWAT guy, so I don't need to join. There's plenty of classes in there that are for patrol officers, and we're really trying to make sure that we get that message out like hey, it's not just SWAT classes there's. There's classes there that patrol guys can and girls can use.
Speaker 3:I think that's super important, absolutely, and that's you have a young man or a woman that's been on three or four years and has not had the opportunity to have access to advanced pistol patrol course or a really good rifle course. There's a lot of them out there. I thought for years you had to be an active SWAT member or be able to show credentials that you're an active SWAT member, that's a great freaking opportunity.
Speaker 1:And we do a great job. We get with our vendors uh, our vendors will sponsor classes. So if you follow us on Instagram and, uh, amazing, yeah, we're on Facebook, but mostly Instagram is the is the cool space, Uh yeah.
Speaker 1:Uh, they'll, they'll do deals where, hey, you, you sign up, basically, uh, and they do. It's like a raffle, but it's on Instagram, however, they do that and then they'll sponsor, sponsor spots for these classes. Um, and, depending on where you are, if, if you're hosting the class, sometimes you will able to give you some comp spots. Uh, and, like I said, I have a soft spot for guys Others, guys like, hey, I really want to go to the conference, but I can't do you know what I can't afford. Whatever, I'll go, I'll comp your spot. You just get here.
Speaker 1:Uh, I've done that to a few guys. I've comp spots in other classes because the guys need the training and, like I said, they're paying their own way. I mean, they're paying. I we had, I've had guys pay their own, pay their own tuition, pay their own lodging, pay their own ammo and average, and I'm like, okay, we, we got to do something. You know, end up giving them a free class or giving them something else to to kind of make up for. I mean, but that's, you know, kudos to them. They're here. There's this guy, like you said, he's trying to protect his community, he's trying to get more training and he's willing to pay his own way to do it.
Speaker 2:A hundred percent.
Speaker 1:And if you're, if you're going to put in that effort, then we're going to do our best to try to get you and those are the guys making.
Speaker 2:You know what's sad is, those are the guys making $12 an hour. Right, uh, he's playing footsies movie. Those are the guys making $12 and $13 an hour, you know. And then they've got to pay whatever the cost. You know the course cost is.
Speaker 1:And our class. I mean we're, we're inexpensive, we are, we are, we are inexpensive. I mean you're, you're getting a. I think we're doing basic Swaffer like 450.
Speaker 3:I mean we're doing some of these other super affordable for the quality.
Speaker 1:Yeah, some of these other. I mean we had Ben Stugger come out world champion. We have, we have world champion shooters and top name people coming out and you're paying you know two $300 to. We had one. This is really funny. So last year's conference, ben, or two years ago, ben came out and so your conference fee was it was like $300. So he, he and that's so. That's two, two classes. Well, this guy signs up and he's the only one in Ben's class. Well, he's got one on one instruction with a world champion for $300. I mean, all day and Ben shot with that guy all day. And I'm like, where do you get that? I mean, if you think about it, like when's the last time you talked to a world champion and anything that you got one on one, or even you know one on three or four instructions?
Speaker 1:So, we were bringing in these names. And if you want to get involved, all you got to do is grab, you know, grab your region director, email him say hey, I want to get involved. What do you need me to do?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:We always need help with the conference. We always need help with the competition. Get your foot in the door and then start helping out with these classes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, be the hey boy, and then you know you'll, you'll work your way out. I mean it's, it's for me, it's very rewarding. I have a. I have a very big responsibility, not just to the members, because the members come first, but in my mind I have a. I have a a responsibility to the guys who started this thing Sandy wall, paul Ford Um, I wrote their, all their names.
Speaker 3:What year was that? When did it kick off? So we're saying 1984.
Speaker 1:So our 40 year anniversary is coming up. So, um, you know, sandy wall, paul Ford, mike Finley, all those guys I mean, and all these other past presidents, gary Heath, I mean there's so many that you know and I'm leaving some out. I'm not leaving you on a purpose, but to me they created this thing. I mean they had a nothing. I mean this was a bunch of guys hanging out at a hotel just swapping stories and has become this, I mean this was well.
Speaker 3:There was some what they said.
Speaker 1:but this is, this is here's, here's, here's. So here's like a telling kind of thing. At their first time they had a conference was like 1996, at 80 people. We're at like 500 people. Oh yeah, they had eight to nine vendors. Last year we had eight to nine vendors in the lobby of the host of the ballroom because we couldn't fit them all in the deal.
Speaker 3:So how many vendors do you think? I've never seen a vendor show like y'all.
Speaker 1:It was the big. It was the biggest. Last year's was the biggest one to date, Square footage wise and vendor wise. I mean we had, like I said, we had at least eight to nine. It was a round rock, right. Yep, that's call a hurry.
Speaker 3:So how many ballpark vendors do you think would you guess?
Speaker 2:I'd say 150.
Speaker 1:Yeah, easily. I don't know, it's insane.
Speaker 3:If you've never been to a TTP conference, pay the money just to walk through the freaking vendors.
Speaker 1:There you go. See, you don't have to pay your money. If you're an officer or a firefighter, just show up to the vendor. Show you get in free to show your ID.
Speaker 2:Fireman.
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, we get well, cause they're meds.
Speaker 2:You, got med spots on the set Just kidding.
Speaker 3:Fireman, sorry, we love you guys.
Speaker 2:We didn't go back to sleep. We didn't need anything about that.
Speaker 1:But yeah, I mean, and I, you know, I have an incredible, I feel I have incredible responsibilities, guys, because they started this thing and I mean I don't want to screw it up and I'll, and I'll ask them, I'll go hey, mom, if I'm screwing this up, if I'm doing something stupid cause I use different language, but hey, let me know, cause I don't want to mess this up and I'll again. I've called them all several times like hey, I'm about to do this or say this what do you think? Have you ever run into this? You know, and it's, it's a, it's a blessing for me.
Speaker 3:I mean, I have these guys to rely on that are I think it's a testament to you, the past presidents, that you mentioned in the founders I thought TTPO had been around long, longer than 40 years. It's a testament to all of you guys that have led it Cause. When I travel around the country, when I tell people I'm from Texas, it's not uncommon for them to be like, dude, ttpo is a legit organization, or they put on high speed. So for only 40 years, like we've been around since 1950. Yeah, a long time. Well, you expect somebody to build a reputation in a brand from 1950. You guys have been around relatively half that time and y'all are a highly respected organization across the country.
Speaker 1:And that's a team ever. These guys, I mean vendors, like Andy Agnes, he's my vendor guy he, that guy kills it, he's and he's, and he'll always say, well, it's team effort and it is a team effort, but he, he crushes it. And I got to sit on a. We did a panel discussion at the NTOA conference and of course I, I, I was it was me, the guy from Florida, a guy from Colorado, guy from California and the NTOA guy. And in this, you know we're having this discussion One of the things was militarization, some other things, and I said well, you know, and I'm from tech, I said I'm from TTPOA, texas, otherwise known as America. And you know, these guys like cheer in the back you know and, uh, and you're, you're wondering.
Speaker 1:I'm wondering like, oh my God, how did I? You know, how did I do? How did I do? Well, then these guys come up to the deal after shake my hand hey, I want to thank you. And I'm like, hey, we're Texas Rangers, we're the SWAT, guys are down on the board. I'm like, how did I do that? I do okay. Oh, no man, you killed it. We look. I'm like so Texas Rangers say you did good. Then, absolutely, you know, I feel I felt like I did, I did well.
Speaker 2:So well, kudos to you guys, man, cause I'm so looking forward to this weekend. I'm going to stop by Friday. Uh, bring a buddy of mine from Wembley. That's a he used to competition shoot he's. He's kind of a SWAT advocate. He loves that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1:So we got side match.
Speaker 2:Oh so.
Speaker 1:I'd let him know that he may, he may have been in that I look forward to it.
Speaker 2:Y'all's Instagram. If y'all have not hit the TTPOA Instagram or Facebook page, the all stuff is sexy and uh, and I'm trying to kind of figure out how that's Chris quality.
Speaker 1:That isn't me Cause I'm not.
Speaker 2:Yeah, shout out to him who's also a uh, irving, pd and warrior awards Uh this past. Tmp conference. Uh, he was awarded that for involvement that he had there in Irving, so it's good stuff.
Speaker 3:You mentioned militarization law enforcement. That was a topic we're going to hit, so the woke community and I feel like it slowed down a little bit. But you know, militarization law enforcement was a hot button, little uh sentence used several years and uh, I'll let you dive off into it. But the bottom line, two bottom lines of it is number one that sets that are being provided, uh, vest helmets, armored vehicles, our core necessities that need to be done to do things safely, uh, and to save lives. But also, you don't want to give us any money and if we find an avenue to get things for free from the military, you know that's that's a win-win.
Speaker 3:that is working out, but that phrase in in the bottom line. Just like May 3rd 2015,. You have two ISIS terrorists, extremists, radicalized extremists show up with AK, platform weapons, drum magazines. I don't care what you say, that's combat. And if you're going to engage in combat, you need to have weapons for combat. And you know, shooting, glitter bombs and and hugging it out and reimagining and having a counselor show up, that doesn't stop two terrorists with AK 47s. That's just the bottom line of it. Tell me how, the importance of the equipment that you guys need and how you guys because I feel like we're coming back out the backside of it People are realizing that the woke agenda didn't work, but tell me about cause you're, you're on the ground, so so I have a chief.
Speaker 1:Jeff Brian has me do a class for our citizens police academies. We call it critical incidents, but it's, it's. And then we tie in the militarization stuff and what a lot of people don't realize and we talked about at the NTOA as well, it's, it was more fiscally driven than it was. Hey, we're trying to be like the military. When I got on the team we had stuff obviously the helmets that saved my life. So I'm kind of glad we did that plates and uniforms and they were camel uniforms cause they were surplus uniforms. And the example I give is okay if, if I come, like for me right now, I have, we have our full. If we're full up, we're 28 guys. I don't know if you've had to try to buy uniforms for 28 guys, but it's pretty expensive. But if I came to you and said, hey, I have these uniforms, you can have as many as you want, you just have to come get them and there's not going to cost you anything, are you not going to go do that? Well, heck, yeah, you're going to go do that. And that's what they did. So we use them for training so we wouldn't mess up our other uniforms. So you know you're, you're saving wear and tear. So it was. It was more same thing with the. The helmets are helmets. Now we have Opscore helmets. Now they're very expensive, they're great helmets.
Speaker 1:Back in the nineties we didn't have Opscore helmets, you had military helmets. So guess what? Hey, I can give you this helmet, it's going to protect you. Just because actually, prior to that, helmets wasn't even a thing Like guys were wearing. I mean you watch, I mean you watch the show, guys wearing baseball hats, backwards and all that Cause. When I got shot, I got calls and I said, hey, where'd you get that helmet? Where'd you get that plate? Where'd you? I mean so, but they're free. And we got a gigantic box of them. It was like, hey, you can have whatever on that pallet, but you just got to take it with you. So I think it was more fiscally driven. But the problem you had, and even the armored vehicles now, some of the armored vehicles like MRAP. We could have got an MRAP, but we didn't get one because if you've ever seen one, they're gigantic and they don't really fit on the street. So, but again, if I had a choice between a bank, or a car nothing.
Speaker 1:I'm going to what was why we got the bank?
Speaker 2:or my car.
Speaker 1:And now we're. We're fortunate enough. I mean, we have two lingo bear cats and you know that's the other. The other thing I bring out is people. They call it a tank. I'm like, okay, first of all, it's not a tank, it's a. It's a bear cat, lingo from lingo, cause a tank has a cannon and this doesn't have a cannon and it's a bear cat. It's not a military vehicle at all. It's actually started out they I think they started as bank armored making armored vehicles for for banks and other things and and kind of evolved into the bear cat, which is now probably the preeminent armored vehicle around. I mean, and those people are great. I mean, love those people If you ever get a chance to go out there we cause. When we picked ours up, we got a tour of the factory. They treated us like kings. It was awesome. The factory is incredible. It's a family run deal as much as they cause.
Speaker 2:they should have left the record, you know what?
Speaker 1:And and really they don't come in, they don't, cause, I mean, if you look at it, really they don't cost that as much as you probably think that they do For what they're protecting, for what they're protecting and and even then they have refurb, like our first one was a refurb and and it works great. But you know it's, it's. That's the thing. Well, it's a military, it's not a military vehicle, it's a civilian vehicle and the military doesn't even use bear cats and even weapons. Hey, we're buying new rifles. We're fortunate enough, our chief takes great care of us. We're getting new rifles.
Speaker 1:Well, if we can't afford those, and I go hey, I got these rifles for you, but you just got to come get them. Are you not going to go get? Of course you are. The problem is the. The other thing that people don't realize is, with that program it was anything that has an NSN number, a national stock number, so you could get desks, you could get chairs, you could get bulldozers, you could get planes, you could get gunships which, if I don't know, I could have got a gunship out of it. Done it just to try to get one.
Speaker 3:I could have seen Mitch's little calm Mitch's face.
Speaker 1:Jeff wouldn't be surprised. We got a gunship now. Well, yeah, it just kind of showed up, but but there was abuses and then, excuse me, and you're not supposed to sell this stuff, so but what happens, right you?
Speaker 1:have people using the system. And then what? Well, like one or two people do it. So instead of that, it becomes we paint this broad brush now of of hey, this is this, it's this program, and they're doing all these bad things and they're trying to be like the military. They're not trying to be like the military, they're trying to protect their guys and afford it Because the stuff is. I mean, it reminds me when I played hockey in high school the more money you spent, the more protection you got right, the more padding there was. It's the same thing, right, I can, I can spend the money, but I don't have the money. But guess what this is? This is a military surplus thing that's going to provide me just as much protection, but it's not costing me anything. Why would I not take advantage of that?
Speaker 3:Well and again, to stop somebody actively engaging in you in combat, you got to have, you got to have items prepared to stop Right.
Speaker 1:You have to have protection against the threats that you're facing, and we're facing those threats, we're facing rifle threats daily. You have to have I mean, back in, of course. You know, back go, adam. 12 days. There was no body armor. So guess what? You got shot with a rifle. Your chances of, if you got hit in the wrong place, chance to survival are probably not that good. But you evolved. Now you have soft body armor. Soft body armor is not stopping rifle rounds.
Speaker 1:So now we got plates. Well, the plates. It wasn't a law enforcement thing, that was a military thing. They were wearing the plates and you're like, hey, we can adapt those for our uses and that's what we're doing. But again, to me it's. It becomes an issue of there's abuses of the program and then that's what gets it, you know, puts the microscope on it and now it's well, instead of just taking care of those two people that abused it, it's, we're going to paint the broad brush. And now nobody's going to, or you're going to be able to, but you're going to have to jump through so many hoops to do it. You're probably going to, you know, give up.
Speaker 2:I hope that the politicians that ended that program need those resources on the day that they need it and that can be reminded of how important it is when that day comes. If that ever does come, yep, hold it out there.
Speaker 3:So let's, let's take a right turn a minute. I've known you 30 years and at a distance at times just because we weren't on the same shift. We've always been friends and always be asked and communicated and had some fun, crazy calls together. But when I think of Dan, I always think of the calm water. He's not a drama queen, he's a family guy. He knows his values and his priorities. How, how have you? What has helped you? Been shot? May 3rd was a shit show. I mean, that was a freaking, huge mess. The first really cool assist I was ever the first person to arrive at with the bowling alley was assist you put out. You've, you've been in a lot of events in 30 years. Still still a family guy, still the calm water. What has helped you? What is that? Just too, dan is? Is there been tools? Your background, what has enabled that?
Speaker 1:That's a good question, I don't know. I think I think some of it is the background in the training. I think the West Point stuff has a lot to do with that. I mean, you just, you just kind of get to, you learn how to kind of deal with the stressors. You know, one thing I'd I'd try to do is try to keep, try to keep the two things separate. So for me, when I cross a certain road, to me that's that's like the DMZ. When I cross that road it's like okay, I mean, unless you're getting murdered I'm, I'm just time to go home now and take care of I'm now dead.
Speaker 3:I'm no longer officer, I'm not officer.
Speaker 1:Right, I'm not Lieutenant, I'm this is, this is what I'm doing right now and that's and I think that was you know, part of that is it's important to. I'm not saying keep them separate, but don't bring that stuff home, and I don't, we don't, we don't really. I mean, we may talk about, you know, my wife or my son, hey, little something, little things here, but as far as details like oh my God, this guy blew his head off today and we don't, we don't really do that. I don't, I've never done that. It's just one of those things. I just, I just think it's just a training and experience.
Speaker 3:So you were in shield and storm shot twice May 3rd. I know there's a shitload of stuff I miss what car? Yeah, that was off duty, but when, when you've, when you've hit in a spot, what's helped you get through that? Or have you have all of them? You just been like, oh, that's no, I think there's been a time where you've had to slow down and evaluate man I'm. This one got me pretty good.
Speaker 1:No, you know, I'll tell you that the I think the the big one was when I got shot. Um, I got shot twice and I'm like wow, you know it. Kind of you're kind of off by yourself, reflecting I got shot twice, I, you know, I might have, could have been dead, and you know, you're kind of talking to God, like hey, what you know, what's you know, obviously obviously has a purpose right. And then, after I got hit by the car, they're like man, you got like nine lives and I'm like, well, I kind of resign myself to the fact that I say, okay, if God has a plan I don't know what it is he obviously wants me around, otherwise I probably wouldn't have had the chance to get run over or shot. And I think once you come to terms with hey, listen when it's, when it's your time, at your time and there's nothing you're really going to do about it, uh, it kind of helped me along like hey, you know most some people may not have been as lucky, you know, and there was luck. There's obviously luck involved.
Speaker 1:I mean his, his, he was involved in probably all those, especially May 3rd, especially getting shot, run over. I mean his, his hands in there and you know it's, it's to me, it's like, well, it's not for me to say, it's for him to say, so obviously he needs me around to do something. I don't know what that something is, but you know, maybe that something is what I'm doing and he needs me around to do it. You know, maybe he doesn't need a SWAT supervisor up there and having yet, so hopefully I get there. But you know I don't. He's got a plan and whatever that is. You know I'm down for it, but hey God, I'm down for the calls.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm down for where. I mean like, not like you have a choice, right, I mean. So I think that was. You know, that was one of the things. You know, for me was just realizing that like, hey, obviously he wants me around, so because it could have been, and that kind of Kind of made peace, because you're wondering like, gee, you know, shot in the head, shot in the chest, this could have went bad. And you know it's funny, that day I had come home for to change and I told my wife I go, hey, honey, I said I'll be home, I'll be home early tonight. We hit this guy last week be in and out, I'll be home, and no time at all, keep dinner warm. And that was at two in the afternoon and I didn't get back till midnight. So I don't ever say that anymore. Hey, I'll be right back, don't? I don't say that anymore.
Speaker 3:So it's equivalent to hold my beer and watch.
Speaker 3:Yeah, exactly my I had always respected Dan. I was pretty young officer Working late nights and I hear assist officer go out my geography still wasn't super strong on the city of Garland and he's screaming that he's at the bowling alley and Off a Saturn in a Northwest Highway, like damn, that sounds familiar. And I look up. I'm at Saturn in Northwest Highway and pull around in a bowling alley there's a huge crowd like Heading towards a riot and Dan's on the ground. While I get out.
Speaker 3:I'm wading through a crowd of peaceful protesters and Guys on the ground and Dan's on him holding him down on the ground, big guy. And I hear Dan over the crowd. I can hear Dan screaming gun, gun, gun. Well, in my mind I'm thinking my rookie mind. I'm thinking the dude's got a gun and he's flailing around on the ground as Dan's on him and I'm like dude, I don't think I see a gun. So I'm worried about the crowd. Well then, dan's like my damn gun. He was leaned back and had a hold of Dan's and was yanking the snod out of it. Well, he's trying to hold what he's got. Watch this 100 people.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah.
Speaker 3:People crowded around and they're all kind of sneaking in wanting to get in a kick and a punch on us, and we used the minimum force necessary to affect.
Speaker 1:I had one guy that was helping me. He was the manager and I could hear the sirens coming and I said listen. I said I appreciate you helping me, but in a few minutes you you need to get off. He was none of them like, listen to me when when I tell you you need to get off and go stand over there, because they're gonna come running up here and if they see you over here they're gonna think you're on me and you're gonna get some trying to save your life.
Speaker 1:I'm trying to save your life sorry About that time I hear I'm like, okay, now's the time and of course the cavalry's coming and they see him Kind of getting off and guys are beat. I mean Clint's be lining to me, but other guys are beat. I'm like no no no, no, don't know, he's good, he's good and I told him, like told you yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's awesome. That was my first major assist. Man um, you got a thing else. Would we not hit dino lieutenant diane?
Speaker 1:I think we hit it all.
Speaker 2:That's awesome. It's been a good episode. It's been a good episode. Have you watched any of the blue grit before? I have you have. So you know that we typically end Each episode with three questions rapid fire questions and no rapid fire questions. I'll let clen ask and I'm sure that, being the fact that you're from garland, that you're gonna answer it probably the same way If you want to ask those three questions.
Speaker 3:Best cop movie or line from a cop movie? Best police car and drink of choice when you're unplugging?
Speaker 1:All right. So best Best cop movie Like movie or like tv show either or line from it from one. I'm gonna say we were just talking about this the other day. I would say, well, I have two. So best show I I'm thinking is is adam twi. I just like adam 12. I think it's cool. I think I'll start it. Um, best line's got to be like clenny's would like like make my day. Yeah, um for sure, best car was probably, uh, the chevy caprice, this, the shamu with the with the lt1 engine.
Speaker 3:It that thing was.
Speaker 1:That thing was bad 94 95.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, this clen's favorite.
Speaker 1:Yeah and then uh, the favorite drink, either beer or, uh, I like old fashions, that's a number one choice.
Speaker 3:Yeah, old fashions are huge. Any certain bourbon you like an old fashion? I don't care, you're not vicky any certain beer you like miller like All right, so funny funny story about shamu.
Speaker 1:So I was in patrol, I I come out in our cars, was in patrol, I did a robbery at the waffle house and they left in a caprice, you know. And uh, so my description was hey, it was a blue chevy caprice like shamu style. And uh, you know, giving out this great description, and then chris hadaway pulls up and he goes, hey, uh, you know me and like one other guy in the shift know what the hell you're talking about. I'm like, well, shamu, he goes, he goes. Yeah, they don't know what that is. I'm like, okay, well, anyway, it's around it and he goes. I know what it is.
Speaker 2:So that's awesome.
Speaker 3:So we had court cars, pull cars. They were squad cars Over the mileage and so they rotated over to a section for court. So came in off duty or whatever. You could grab one of those. We'd gone to crown vixen, they were horrible, but you were supposed to take your district.
Speaker 2:I felt like that was a shot. It wouldn't shot it. Yeah, that didn't mean that. No, it's fine, it's personal. It was a shot.
Speaker 3:He loves crown vix, you were supposed to, by god, take your district car. So I would go get my district car keys, whatever 33, and I would go over and put them on a court ring and take a caprice court car. And I thought, man, I'm gonna get trouble for it if I ever, if it ever catches up in several months into crown vix, somebody gets in a chase on 30, it goes around to 635 and I hear two guys saying I can't keep up as in. Is there anybody in a chevy? I was like 33, I'll be in route.
Speaker 3:Caught him passed him, got in the chase those cars could move. Oh it's awesome.
Speaker 2:I never had the. I never. I never drove one, so I guess I shouldn't really give you too much shit about it.
Speaker 1:I just enjoyed the banter. You know where dino came from.
Speaker 3:I don't.
Speaker 1:Funny because it came up because at the last conference with the guest speaker called me dino and everybody like why do they call you that? That was the only thing I knew you by for years, so I got that nickname because I came from new york See, and when I was a rookie on the radio I got a little excited and I was like the guys goes. Hey man, you sound like dino from the flintstones on the radio.
Speaker 3:You need to calm down a little bit, so that that's.
Speaker 1:That's where it came, because I know there's probably some people going. I never heard anybody calm that.
Speaker 3:That's why so in the early 90s everybody garland had a nickname and we had dino, we had hondo booger pookie.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah.
Speaker 3:And if you had a hell of a gun in my head most of my career and said what is booger's real name or what is pookie's real name or what is hondo or dino's real name, I'd have been like Officer pookie.
Speaker 1:I don't know I have no idea.
Speaker 3:For the first 10 years everybody went by. A lot of people went by nicknames and that was just who they. Yep, that was who they were. And way into my career Somebody called me. He's like hey, do you know Malanado? I was like man, I don't think so. When I called somebody like that's hondo, I was like oh no, kidding, I cool ttpoa, they can jump on.
Speaker 1:If people want to join, they jump online ttpoaorg, you can join If you want to come out to the competition. You come out to the competition. Uh, the website's updated. So the the conference will be here next year at the kalahari. It's already.
Speaker 2:The website's already updated and y'all's presidency ends At conference. Is that happy can?
Speaker 1:I, I think it's too. I gotta check them. I think I got like one more year, that's two years, because I took over. When I took over gram head, gramm retired. He got off the board in the middle of his, so I took over because I was vice president and then I got elected. So I think I have one more.
Speaker 2:Well, me and clen will see you there. It'll be here in austin we will see you please, please, I mean it's we're gonna have.
Speaker 1:We should have registration over for the conference At the end of this week or soon after. Uh, we got some really good instructors lined up. Yeah, really good. Uh, very good price.
Speaker 2:Cool, we'll do it. I like it. Well, this is about uh, I think this wraps it up. We got anything else, man, nothing, I'm ready to get my my dog kima.
Speaker 3:kima, you're a deli, that's her middle name, since she's chocolate.
Speaker 2:Oh my god, all right. Well, I've got some things to do this afternoon. Looks like I'm getting new uh. Member of the family. Thanks for coming on, brother.
Speaker 1:Thank you Really really appreciate it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was awesome, yeah, awesome, yeah, looking forward to ttpoa's competition this weekend and Looking forward to our conference, maybe drink an old-fashioned or two.
Speaker 3:Yep, I appreciate you. I appreciate what you've contributed to garland A bunch of young officers including me, helping Um but across texas.
Speaker 1:Thank you.
Speaker 3:People need to give back people need to step up and give back, not just to their community, but to law enforcement, that's right, absolutely, it's important.
Speaker 2:Well, this is about wraps it up. You guys stay safe. Uh, god bless you. And, as always, may god bless texas. We are out, oh, oh.