The latest criminal justice reform and activism discussion focuses on the journey of Chas Moore, co-founder of the Austin Justice Coalition, highlighting the transformative power of personal loss and legal entanglements. The conversation explores the complex landscape of disparities in legal outcomes and the profound influence of geography and socioeconomic status on justice. The episode also delves into law enforcement interactions and the formation of community trust, discussing the inception of the Austin Justice Coalition and its interplay with the Black Lives Matter movement. The importance of local action and personalized approaches to reform are emphasized, along with the intricate dance of accountability and the effort to foster a harmonious future between police and the policed.
email us at- bluegrit@tmpa.org
The latest criminal justice reform and activism discussion focuses on the journey of Chas Moore, co-founder of the Austin Justice Coalition, highlighting the transformative power of personal loss and legal entanglements. The conversation explores the complex landscape of disparities in legal outcomes and the profound influence of geography and socioeconomic status on justice. The episode also delves into law enforcement interactions and the formation of community trust, discussing the inception of the Austin Justice Coalition and its interplay with the Black Lives Matter movement. The importance of local action and personalized approaches to reform are emphasized, along with the intricate dance of accountability and the effort to foster a harmonious future between police and the policed.
email us at- bluegrit@tmpa.org
After weeks of protesting the deaths of Michael Ramos and George Floyd Chas Moore, with the Austin Justice Coalition listed six major changes local justice groups want to see.
Speaker 5:Was the result what you set out to start, or did the nuts hijack it?
Speaker 6:No, I think again. I think that the national narrative is really what screwed up what we were trying to do here in Austin.
Speaker 5:BlueGrid podcast. We are back this week with Coe's. Klemick, nier and Tolero Got a cool episode this week. We're going to dive into and kick around cuss and discuss about some relevant issues, some things going on, and I look forward to seeing how this one spins out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, got a big boss in the house We've got the big hefe our executive director, kevin Lawrence, here.
Speaker 5:Welcome, boss.
Speaker 2:They call me big. Every chance they get Big man will sound, I know what they're really saying, big man will sound Into our guest.
Speaker 1:Man. I reached out to this guy a couple weeks ago and, I'll be honest, the phone call was kind of like what in the hell? Why is the state police association giving me a call? This is a setup.
Speaker 6:I thought it was one of those automated things where they call and ask for money. I'm just like.
Speaker 1:I'm not the guy. Well, and the realization is this is that we most likely are not going to be having Christmas dinner together. We're not going to walk out here best friends. We're going to have some disagreements, but this platform is really the difficult conversations and we're going to ask you some questions, maybe about kind of what. What's transpired that maybe you can answer that our members and our viewerships going to want them up, but we've got Chas Moran and you are. Are you the executive director of the Austin Justice Coalition?
Speaker 6:Yeah, founder and co-ed kind of split it up a little bit Gotcha, gotcha. Welcome to the blue grip man Appreciate you coming on, man, thank you, I think. Thank you for having me We'll see how this goes, but yeah, I'm. You know, I believe in these type of conversations. You know, I think it's important to have conversations with people that we don't necessarily agree with on everything and, you know, just have a open mind and open dialogue, gotcha.
Speaker 5:We'll see. You said something before we came in that struck gold with me. What was it you said out in the hallway that struck on?
Speaker 6:Yeah, I think I said um. I think if we were able to talk to each other more and not just talk to people that we always agree with, um, I think we'll find out that we actually agree more than we don't. Yeah.
Speaker 5:If you're dug in in a silo on what you think. I'm dug in on a silo what we think we're never going to know. If, if there's 10 topics and we get along on four of them or agree on five of them, we're never going to know. If you stay in your bunker and I stay in mine, Absolutely I love, I love that you walk in the door and you're like hey man, if we ain't talking, we're not figuring things out.
Speaker 2:Well, I can lay a little foundation here. Chas and I have known each other for a few years now and we have had a number of conversations, uh, mostly down at the Capitol, but uh, the fact of the matter is, even though we do disagree on a lot of issues, I don't know that we've ever had harsh word between us. I don't think so.
Speaker 5:Yeah, a lot to be said for that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, 100%. Well, we usually typically start each episode by saying kind of uh, who the hell's Chas? Where'd you grow up? Uh, how did you start your mission? And and and where you got where you're at now?
Speaker 6:Um, yeah, so you know, I'm originally from um Houston Texas. I was born in Houston Texas. Um, yeah, I'll just give you out a whole story. I mean, you know, fuck it. Um, born in Houston. Um, I was raised by my family program oh is it I
Speaker 6:was like shit. Um, but yeah, I was. I was born in Houston. I was raised by. I was raised by my grandparents, um, my mom passed away when I was seven. Um, my dad was in jail until I was 18, um, 17, 18. Um, and you know, for the most part, a pretty good student. Um, I made straight A's throughout my entire school career, um, except I made like a B and a a DRC my junior year of high school, which is when things got interesting. That's when I was um partying with the wrong group of people at the wrong time, and that's when I got my conviction, my felony conviction, of a robbery. Um, although you know, I know y'all probably think I'm bullshitting, but I didn't do it. And, um, you know, I vividly to this day remember to just tell me. You know, I know you're a good kid, I know you didn't do this crime, but you were hanging with the wrong people and I wanted to teach you a lesson.
Speaker 1:Um play deal.
Speaker 6:Yeah, Please. And you know if I knew what I know about the law. Now, by all means, I want to do it, you know.
Speaker 2:but it was just in juvenile court or adult, um, I was 17. Okay, I was 17.
Speaker 6:So adult court, um, and my first time getting in trouble, you know. So um took the plea deal, which was, uh, every weekend in jail for my spring semester of my senior year. Then a day after graduation I had to spend those two months in Fort Bend County jail. Then eight years probation, um, so like, really, that was a segue for me into like this criminal justice reform. Um, and at first it wasn't really about police, it was about like how can we make sure people that um have been accused or have been you know, even if they did it like how can we have more just um ways of having people being held accountable for things they may or may may not have done?
Speaker 6:Um, then you know, fast forward, I uh in through all that, I get accepted to the University of Texas, um, and then you know the trade on Martin thing happens, um, and that kind of starts like the whole exploration of activism and you know black lives matter and and you know police stuff after that. So, um, that's kind of like the long and short story of of of how we got to where I am today.
Speaker 2:Um, yeah, and it's been interesting ever since what high?
Speaker 5:school did you graduate from I?
Speaker 6:went to Madison High School, the same school with um, with Vince Young. Oh cool, cool.
Speaker 5:And uh finish UT.
Speaker 6:No, no, no, I party way too much.
Speaker 5:What was your, what was your way?
Speaker 6:I was doing um advertising, cool Um. So I was in the comm school but you know and you know, ut was a very interesting place.
Speaker 6:You know, I was dealing mentally with all the the shit that I was doing with the eight years probation and that was really difficult, um, cause I didn't have a car, so I had to like borrows friends cars all the time to go see my probation officers down on William Cannon I think that's what the office is Um, it's just a lot of other shit. You know, I just just really couldn't focus Um, and honestly I think I can say now I wasn't supposed to be throwing parties because I wasn't supposed to be around alcohol, but I needed, I needed some money, um, and that was my main focus Um but you know, I did eight years probation successfully.
Speaker 6:Um, and you know again. Here we are today.
Speaker 5:Well, ut is a challenge. I dropped my son off there at 18 years old at UT, and he called me about three weeks later, overwhelmed, and I'm like why are you overwhelmed? He goes, my graduating class was 200 and there's 350 of my psychology class.
Speaker 6:Yeah.
Speaker 5:And there's 50,000 students here, which is bigger than the town or from, and I'm like, and he's, he's a sharp kid and he's like man, I'm overwhelmed.
Speaker 6:Yeah, and you know it's not like um. You know when you come from a small school, like I did at Madison, you know you got time to connect with the teacher and connect with other folks in your class. But you know, when you're one of 300 people in one like this one class, for like an hour, that TA and that that professor doesn't have time because, like they got, they got to go to the next thing, so um, you know, I mean I hope your son figured it out.
Speaker 6:Clearly, I didn't. But, um, you know, it is a challenge and kudos to anybody that um goes through that and learns that discipline and do that. And I, you know, I'm not even one of those people that think everybody needs to go to college to be successful. Um, I will say I do think everybody should go to college because I think the things you learn in that environment um, because college to me is like a snapshot of the real world. Right, it's really diverse. You got people with different opinions and backgrounds. You have to learn how to, like, settle in and buckle down. Problem solved. Yeah, All that type of shit you know, especially just from the money aspect. Right, Like you take your 18, 17 year old and drop them off on the campus and say, hey, figure it out. Yeah, Like you know, you learn some life skills pretty quick.
Speaker 2:I'm curious about your, your experience with a criminal justice system?
Speaker 3:How long have you been in Fort Bend County If?
Speaker 2:you were going to school living in Houston, harris County. How'd you end up in the Fort Bend County system?
Speaker 6:Yes.
Speaker 2:So it was some of the guys on the football team, um, and this time it started out as like hey, let's go talk to some girls at Willowridge.
Speaker 3:Willowridge is in.
Speaker 6:Fort Bend at the right across the battery.
Speaker 2:Yeah Right.
Speaker 3:So we go over there and I'm with every intention that we're going to talk to some girls, but, um, you know, these guys had a different plan when we got there. Um and and you know they, they beat up some kid and took his fucking instrument and, um, I think they later ponded it and that's how we got to the trouble.
Speaker 2:I was just curious, but it was eight years probation for a first defender in. Harris County.
Speaker 1:It's just insane that we have Fort Bend.
Speaker 2:County, especially back then, was a whole different market. Yeah, it's much more conservative, much more tough on crime, yeah, well, it was. It was stopped, it was starting to grow a lot at that point, but it's still a very rural, you know yeah, yeah, yeah Well yeah, I think it was still very real at some point, because that was like 2005, 2006. Um, so yeah, it was. Yeah, eight years probation for a first time defender does not happen in Harris County.
Speaker 3:You know, if this is Harris County, you know, I think no-transcript.
Speaker 6:Yeah, I don't know if I will be the person I am today, because I think that whole experience taught me that the world is unfair and it isn't just you know, and that that is what really got me leaning into the work that.
Speaker 3:I'm doing today. So you know, I mean it's kind of like the gift in a curse, but yeah, yeah, I would probably be like rich and famous Because I was going to do stand up, you know. I got a stand up video on YouTube that I need to take down because I Don't want to get canceled. I'm not friends with.
Speaker 7:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, and going back to what you talked about, what you were.
Speaker 7:You were present during the robbery.
Speaker 1:You.
Speaker 3:Know, eight years probation is pretty stiff, but what did you feel? What part of that process you feel like was unfair, unjust. Yeah, I think the main thing was no straight student never got any control at all, like zero right, I think um, yeah, you know, I think, even though I was in the vicinity like.
Speaker 3:And I swear I had no idea that this was gonna happen. I think some grace should have been given, and we know like that happens, depending on you know the the background of a person if they have from a history. Not A lot of times. If you have the money, you know like a lot of times it's just you wind up getting a lawyer that may know that the judges are the a's whatever and also forming kind of the same County where that kid skip school and you know when you're riding, kills people.
Speaker 3:And then we came with a fluenza Right. He was too rich to realize that he had done wrong right. So it was the same county where this person skip school was your riding and kill somebody, even I'm sure it was by accident. But they gave him like a year to probation, right.
Speaker 6:Um which he immediately violated.
Speaker 3:Yes, Right and then you look at me just like first time good kid, not even deferred, it was eight years probation with the public relations thinking. Right, I thought it was. I got into university Texas, right, so I was. What's the law?
Speaker 1:enforcement or they were they fair?
Speaker 3:I mean, was it the, the Javie?
Speaker 5:negative experiences of law enforcement during that process?
Speaker 6:well, no, but you know again, if I knew Then what I know now, cuz like the cops came in my house with like it was a hey, this thing happened, we need to talk to you.
Speaker 3:And in my dumb ass went Without a lawyer and then talk to the lawyer and, like I was a kid, you know, they bought me like water burger, so I'm just drinking my fucking shake, can eat my water or eating fries, like Tell them all these things that happened. Even I told them like yeah, we were going to talk to girls. I Know this was gonna happen. I was still implicated because I was a driver, one of the vehicles, and I think, you know, even if I would have talked to my lawyer first, I don't think.
Speaker 2:I would have went down the same track that I went.
Speaker 6:No, we got a lawyer.
Speaker 3:My grandma actually went through a lot to make sure that, you know, I didn't have to see any time, like you know, whatever prison was out there time Um, and she did everything in power to keep me at for me County Jail. So you know, and actually my first job ever like was at for me County Jail. I got a job in the kitchen really and I got fired to the Boss. So but you know, I mean it's just a very interesting life man.
Speaker 6:This is very interesting.
Speaker 5:We had a cops were fine, you know.
Speaker 3:They did what I think they're training, doing like feel them and you know.
Speaker 6:If I think one of our right key, like I if yeah, I would be one of the snitches on first 48, because I just didn't know that I wasn't supposed to and I wound up just, I guess, telling on myself because I didn't. I didn't say anybody else's name, but I think I gave them enough information To make it seem like I was in this by myself. I don't know, man.
Speaker 6:But no, the cops were not they weren't assholes, they were just doing their job. I think the only thing that I wish they would have done is made it more clear that I had the right to talk to the attorney, and maybe I just kind of missed that because, you know again, I was 17, I didn't really know well, and that's where I think Educating people without going to, you know too much in the detail as a detective, when.
Speaker 1:I think all three of us have served in that capacity, is that you're trying to do just for the victim? You're trying to do, you're trying to solve this case and I think that the aspect of what detectives do sometimes it's you know an encounter, whether we, whether we we know the individual or not, whether we do read and writes, and you may not know this or not, but if we, if a detective reads an individual, the rights and then they confess, you can go ahead and open when make the arrest, Depending on what county yeah but overall then inside Texas, if you were to Miranda somebody, it's a felony offense.
Speaker 1:You can effectively make the arrest and then submit a probable cause to master. It is how we did it back home, mm-hmm, I say back home East Texas.
Speaker 1:But depending on the individual you may not want to read them a rights, because it may be a situation like you said and you have to build that trust up with a suspect, and so that's most likely what happened with you and that's why you didn't get arrested the day that you talked to the cops. So it's Law enforcement's about strategy on that on investigation side of it. But the key thing that I got out of that story was it wasn't law enforcement that really mistreated you had a problem with. It Was the criminal justice.
Speaker 3:Yeah side of it.
Speaker 1:So I'm trying to kind of, in my mind, try to understand. Not saying that you developed a problem with police, because we're gonna dive into that here in a minute. Yeah, but at some point you shifted your focus. If Austin Justice Coalition was formed in 2015, we have 2019, 2021. The defund movement happened, we're gonna go into that, yeah for a timeline.
Speaker 5:What was the chronology? When was your Disposition or court and when did that? What year was it?
Speaker 6:um 2000, summer, summer 2005, so I think fall 2005, and the probation would have been from yeah, from 2005 to just 2013, 2013, 2014 oh fives.
Speaker 5:When it happens, you're off probation in 13 so from 05 to 15 when you started Austin Justice Coalition or co-founded. Was there anything profound during that period? Or were you just kind of rocking along and young man trying to figure out where you're headed, or what does that look like?
Speaker 6:Yeah, you know, I think. Um, so, in a backdrop of all this, though, right, I think, up until that point I personally, I mean, I've had some weird encounters with police because, like Houston right, like they got some assholes in the Houston Police Department for sure police would come to my neighborhood and like stop some of the bigger black guys like they were, you know, 1617 but look like a, look like a man, just kind of rough them up for no reason, but you know and you witnessed that?
Speaker 6:oh yeah yeah, for sure, and and that would. But that was just normal to us, right like we. We just we expected that because, you know, we had some, some rough guys in the neighborhood and I think that every, if every, young black male in the neighborhood just suffer because of the rowdy ones which, whatever. Then you know, man, one of the the most vivid examples of like how the police can be sometimes not all, but sometimes is I was smoking a black and mild, just a black amount, in high school at AMC 30 on Dumbville, for anybody that's, you know, in Houston watching this, and I feel like a thing in my back right. I'm just like and I hear freeze.
Speaker 6:I was like oh shit. And I'm just like like what is going on. So I see the flashlight here, I see like light over my shoulder and my friend is like oh bro, just don't move. And it's a cop with a gun in my back and a flashlight saying like why y'all had smoking drugs. It was like bro was just smoking a black and mild. He gets it, he smells it, like for a while, like dump it out to make sure there's no marijuana. You know, he says, get the fuck out of here, go enjoy your movie now. I think that was wildly inappropriate, right like I just didn't think it was necessary.
Speaker 6:I didn't think it was needed but even with that, I don't think at that time I developed the the the level of critique of police that I do now. But there were some interactions in Houston growing up that I didn't feel were rights. But you know it, just it was just life, it just is what it is. But then I get to Austin, 2006. I think around 2007, 2008, as I start to dive into the Austin community, I learned about some of the issues that the black community have had here with law enforcement. You know you go back to the Valentine's Day event that's what they call it like in, I think 1999, which started, kind of started the police contract stuff here in Austin. And then you just kind of go back year by year. You know it seemed that almost every summer that a young black person or, you know, black lady would be killed by APD.
Speaker 6:So I think a lot of my questions and critique about APD come from. I came from just really getting to know people in the community and learning about some of the harms that community members and families have faced at the hands of APD. And then you know, fast forward a little bit, you know 2015, like that's like two or three years after Black Lives Matter blowing up and you know, I think Black Lives Matter, mixed with some of the personal stories that we hear on a local level, is why we got started, because we just felt like there was something that needed to be done as far as police accountability, police perform to make sure that you know, for the most part, we can stop the violence between police and what seems to be disproportionately people of color right. So I think you look at around 2010 to 2013. Black Lives Matter starts in 2015.
Speaker 5:We start AJC are you guys directly affiliated with BLM?
Speaker 6:No, and you know, to be honest, and I'll say this like I knew Black Lives Matter on a national level was going to be a bad idea, because some of the things that they were saying sounds really good. Right, we don't believe in centralized leadership. Right, we don't want there to be certain faces, you know, because we don't want targets and it's like, well, that's not how things work. All right, you have to have a structure to make sure people can, you know, have have some direction. Right, but you say you don't want centralized leadership. You're talking about within BLM. Yeah, yeah yeah yeah
Speaker 6:within BLM right like you don't want centralized leadership. Then you have like this kind of cookie cutter approach like what you do in Missouri with police can't happen in Texas because it's two different cultures, it's two different right like hell. Even what we do in Austin and in Central Texas is different than what they do in Houston and Dallas. Right, you can't have cookie, cookie cutter approaches to a lot of things. So I always knew that was going to be a bad idea. So even when I was approached with starting a BLM chapter in Austin, I was like no, we'll do something else that makes sense to keep it on a local level right because, austin, that was a response to, not really an affiliate of.
Speaker 6:Yeah, you know. But but I think, because of some of the things I say, some of the things we do that are still like kind of in sync with with the parallel yeah, you know, a lot of people say well, you know, ajc is the BLM in Austin. It's not true and I think we do things completely different. But yeah. I think BLM is what sparked us to do something here on a local level.
Speaker 2:So there's so many things that you just talked about that I think we could spend days diving deeper into. But go back to the incident at the movie theater because I three veteran police officers here, the way you describe that incident, I think we would all agree inappropriate for that cop to approach it that way. But being experienced cops, we're gonna assume there's more to that story. There's something from the cops perspective that would cause the cop to have his gun drawn, because the way you describe it there's no justification for that cop have a gun drawn. Did you ever file a complaint? Did you ever pursue that?
Speaker 6:No, I was, I was, I was, I was 17. You know I was either 17 or 16 at the time, no 17 or 18 at the time. And you know, man, like just to maybe give the guy a bone, because I'm not, you know, I tell people all the time I'm a, I'm a asshole but I'm a fair one. Like that theater is is, you know, notorious for nefarious activity. You know what I mean. So, like, maybe, like he thought I was a part of that. But you know, if he's behind me and I'm smoking the thing, I can justify his thought process. But like the gun and all that, to assume that I'm armed, I just think that's a bit much.
Speaker 1:But you know, in the pickup on Kevin's point is that maybe there was an arm robbery, call a block down the street that matched your physical description, and of course we'll never know right. But I just want to paint the picture that that's most in my opinion of what happened. I would assume, and I think you guys would probably agree, there had to been something that transpired prior to him doing that, because every action requires a reaction. I'm certainly not suggesting that some police very small majority do make mistakes on occasion, but I would think and and there are some bad apples we don't.
Speaker 2:We don't disagree with that. We think it's a lot smaller percentage than you think it is, and we believe I don't think it's a big percentage, though I mean, I think it, I think it's, yeah, it's probably a lot. You're right, it's probably a lot smaller, and I think we work a lot harder to eliminate those than what maybe what you believe we do. But that's.
Speaker 1:Those are all threshold discussions.
Speaker 2:Those are threshold conversations, we can agree. We don't need bad cops. We all agree on that, you know. We don't need our cops mistreating our public, mm-hmm. And we need our cops held accountable. But we got a situation here, something that happened how many years ago now. I don't want to embarrass you about talking about exactly how you know it's been a while okay.
Speaker 2:Has that cop ever been a held accountable? Have you ever gotten an explanation for exactly why that cop approached you that way? And that is what we need to have. More than likely, once all the facts are out, people are gonna look at it go. Yeah, I understand why the cop approached it that way, but you needed an explanation and I think the cop needed to be held accountable.
Speaker 6:Agree, but those things are not mutually exclusive but I think most people in my shoes in that situation 17, 18 year old black kid One we don't know the complaint process. One. Two, if we did, we don't believe it's gonna do anything. Right, and that's the problem here in Austin, right, Like people call us a lot of times with like, and y'all know this right, A lot of complaints from people from the public are about like, rudeness, the couple's being asked what they mean, but even still that we tell people to complain, they don't know how or they just don't do it because, believe it or not, man, people are afraid that like people really have in their mind that if I complain about officer, that I'm gonna be retaliated against.
Speaker 6:Now we know, and I hope y'all can agree that that has happened very, very seldomly, Like that doesn't happen often. It happens, but not often enough, right?
Speaker 2:But then also too, I think I'm sorry is that the cops retaliating against people or the people actually made the complaint.
Speaker 6:Well, no, like the retaliation right, like that has happened in history. That has happened, but I don't think it happens nearly as much as people think it does. Like for sure, right, like everybody thinks that I don't know why people think that man Like I think, well, I do know. I think we lived at a point in time in history where the government was after certain vocal leaders like MLK and stuff like that. We noticed it'd be true, right, but I think everybody thinks that the government is so bad and corrupt and I can probably say and think that we agreed that the government could be doing a lot better, right? No matter what side of the aisle you are, we all and law enforcement is the primary face of government.
Speaker 2:That most people see on a day-to-day basis. So it kind of just lends itself toward law enforcement being the ones held accountable for that distrust. We understand that. The solution, as you talked about, is we gotta have better communications back and forth, which would include the complaint process, and you and I I mean you and I sat on the committee where the legislature adopted new laws that talk about every law enforcement agency has to publish in you know heaven knows how many different ways. Here's how to complain on an officer. Here's how to commend an officer for your contact. Have we seen the number of complaints or the feedback from the public go up as a result of that?
Speaker 6:I don't think so. No, why not Because I don't think people think it actually is gonna do anything, is it?
Speaker 2:not true that there is in fact being preached because there's a cottage industry out there pushing this schism between law enforcement and our community and people are being told not to trust their cops. How do we overcome that?
Speaker 6:I don't think people are being told not to trust the police. You don't think so. There's a whole lot of groups out there, yeah.
Speaker 5:But I wanna jump back up who's saying don't trust the police.
Speaker 6:Like this flat out saying don't trust the police Black.
Speaker 2:Lives Matter Campaign Zero. First Amendment Auditors the First Amendment Auditors who are far right-wing groups saying do not trust the police.
Speaker 5:I wanna back up one second Kudos to you when you got a flashlight in your face and a gun in your back for not turning around motherfucking, shoving, escalating the situation potentially getting yourself shot. Yes, kudos to you because none of that happened. Because you were like, oh shit, your buddy told you, oh shit, you got a gun in your back Compliance and rather than turning it into a freaking tornado and it going completely sideways, you didn't do that, kudos to you, because I've got kids that are 16, about to be 17.
Speaker 5:And if he come home and said somebody shoved a gun in my back, a cop shoved a gun in my back because I had a cigar or I had dip in my mouth, hell hath no fury on my way up to the police station to figure it out. The other part about complaints we wouldn't have a job if people weren't filing complaints on law enforcement, because we're here to try and work through those and navigate those and assign them counsel if they need it. There's a whole lot of complaints coming in every single day and I don't discount that back in the day you complain on me back in the day and some cop goes and tries to retaliate. But in this day and time, with the magnifying glass that's on law enforcement, if they tell me, hey, man, chaz was up here and filed a formal complaint on you, you got an I. The last thing I'm gonna do is go, look for Chaz and escalate the problem I've already created and get another complaint. Or hey, he filed a complaint on you and you chose to go out there and screw with him, so now you're gonna have him and leave and we're gonna fire you.
Speaker 5:I don't discount it had never happened in history, as you said, but in today's day and time we are disciplining, terminating and holding accountable officers at a higher rate than we've ever held them. So I don't discount that it's not happening in history, but I can tell you, when they call us they're like man, I've got myself in a jam, I need an attorney. The last thing they're wanting is well, I'm about to go find that dude and paying back for this.
Speaker 2:I've lived a lot longer than either one of these guys. I've been in the business longer, so I've experienced a lot more. I've also studied the history of law, and for I've studied all the way back to the eras of bull conners and the stuff that was going on. So again, we don't deny that there's a history there. We don't deny that and let's face it. Individual biases play into just about everything in life, Absolutely, and how we try to mitigate the effects of those in law enforcement is critical. But it's a constant, ongoing process in law enforcement. It's not, it's not something we're oblivious to. It is, you know, law enforcement agencies. You know as a whole, are trying to address that, the two agencies. You talked about Houston it's a movie theater and you said there's a lot of assholes in the Houston police department. And then you talked about Austin, two of the most liberal communities in Texas.
Speaker 2:Those law enforcement officers work for a bunch of, shall we say, enlightened politicians.
Speaker 6:That's a very nice way to put it. Yes.
Speaker 1:We're dancing around the fire on that.
Speaker 2:How is it that those are the two law enforcement agencies that we are folks and I get it. It's your personal experience but, you would think that those are the two agencies would be doing the best job of getting it right, of improving, of addressing those types of issues.
Speaker 6:Yeah, but you know and people won't at least people on my side of things right, like my liberal love progressive friends they won't like this. But and I also know that I'm speaking of this from a some point of privilege because I haven't had a loved one that's been shot by APD or Houston police department. But I do think Austin and I say this all the time it never makes the new segments or anything like that.
Speaker 6:But I think Austin police department has done a really good job In in lieu of people like me, people like Chris Harris, the national conversation around policing, um, you know, I think they have done really well at taking on the challenges of what it means to be a cop in today's society, where you have people like me that are Elevating the conversations around the role of police, like you know, the need of police, um, and I think that Austin I can't speak too much for Houston because they seem to take a step in the right direction and always like 3 steps back, um, but I do think there are police departments like Austin, some in California that are, that are taking the initiative to try to be better police departments in this new day and age, because it's just different.
Speaker 6:Man Like you can't and that's all of us Right, you can't, you cannot be the same person, um, today. That that was acceptable 20 years ago, right, like, one of my favorite comedians of all time is George Carlin. George Carlin would not, he could not have a career in 2023. He just couldn't.
Speaker 5:Some of these feeling will be hurt.
Speaker 6:Right, like, and it just Okay, it is what it is. I like, this is what we are, and I think the type of policing that we saw in the 97 words you couldn't say.
Speaker 2:You've already said six.
Speaker 6:But but you know, like like some of the policing that that even you know the older black folks in my community approved of with the like the 90s crime bill. You know, you know the broken windows policing, like the stuff that people in my community wanted because they too felt afraid of people, of things going on in a people in the neighborhood. Like we are saying, yes, crime is happening, bad things are happening, but that doesn't justify the type of policing that that we're getting in today's society.
Speaker 1:Well, and just like you said earlier, you met a comment about people aren't telling people to not trust the police. So I challenge if we can learn or change anything about this podcast. When you leave here, I challenge you to maybe relate to your organization. It's maybe the way that you say it. It's maybe Houston police is a bunch of assholes. Well, not every single Houston cops asshole, not every single AP. I will say this too is as a Texas peace officer that served 20 years. Clint was in Garland, kevin was in the in the Houston area, c Brooke and some other, some other departments, austin.
Speaker 1:PD has historically always been one of the most well respected, well, manicure, I guess department in Texas, and I'm telling you this and we're going to segue into something that happened in 2020. What they have to deal with now with the recruiting crisis and law enforcement. You're right, law enforcement is completely different to how it was in the 90s, but we've evolved and we continue to evolve and we continue to want to evolve. You made mistakes across your entire life A few, and that's that's developed who you are today. 99.999% of cops want to go out there and serve the communities. They want to do good. That's. That is the. Of all the cops that I've ever dealt with, I will tell you that I've never I have not met one personally.
Speaker 2:They got up and said I want to go shoot and kill an unarmed person today, and my and here be my argument, law enforcement seems to be the focus of us, trying to repair the inequities that exist within our criminal justice system, to the exclusion of actually trying to correct the real causes. And again, in my opinion, what you experienced in Fort v County may or may not have had a lot to do with the cops that did the investigation. The fact that you received such a harsh punishment, which would have been completely, you know, uncalled for or would not have happened in Harris County let's just say it that way yeah, was probably not because of anything those cops did there. We don't deny there are inequities in the system, but very often it's not because of skin color, it's because of other factors. Skin color comes into play because, let's face it, folks of color make up a much higher percentage of our economically challenged population.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that tends to be where crime rates are highest. Police activity is highest, police interaction with the communities are highest, you know, and is that? Is that the fault?
Speaker 3:of law enforcement?
Speaker 2:or is that simply law enforcement, out there doing their jobs day in and day out? Again, not saying there's no fault, but you've heard us talk about this and you and I may have discussed this. Bad policing happen. It's when it does happen, it's generally not because of bad police officers. There's a whole bunch of other factors that come into play. It's bad policies, bad leadership, lack of resources, lack of fun A lot of things that cause bad policing. We cannot fix that by simply blaming everything on the individual officers. We've got to address the underlying issues.
Speaker 6:Yeah, underlying problems in our criminal justice. I absolutely agree with everything you said and I think my pushback to that would be If I'm a peace officer, right. If I'm a police officer and I know that that these things are happening because of bigger systemic issues, right if, if I'm a like, let's say I'm a 40 something, well, 30 something year old white cop I'm 35, calm down, you know but like, if I'm a white cop that's patrolling the east side and I can Literally smell and see and taste inequities and and I may run into, you know, a young person that that, for all intents and purposes, is what I'm about to say like, like, breaking the law. Like I get what you're saying, man, but it's just like.
Speaker 6:At some point I think the issue with me and police is that I feel right I'm saying I feel that a lot of times police officers don't see their Sells as a part of the community. Right, like, if your job is to only enforce the law, right, then that means you're not questioning the, the, the, the inequities within the law itself. Right, if you just a police officer, you're just Enforcing the law and you don't have any problems with the law, if you don't have any problems with how it Always seems to be that black and brown people are at the shit end of most. Sticks like that creates attention. Right, because If you're only enforcing the law but you don't understand how the law itself is unjust and unfair, then it's just like you.
Speaker 2:You know the funny? The funny thing is there's actually, I think, an inverse First relationship between those things. When I started this business back in the late 70s, early 80s, and it was very early on that veteran officers Set me down and said let's make sure you're clear about this. It is not illegal to be poor, it is not illegal to be black, it is not illegal to be hit, to be Hispanic. There are times that you will start feeling like that's all you deal with is people of color, because they're, they make up our poor population. Fight that, okay, we. That was being taught, has been taught and I have passed it on to every generation.
Speaker 2:But as a result of change in policies over the years, we have done everything. Law enforcement as a as a whole has done everything we can to take Discretion away from our officers. We have written policies in such a way that they are being given a binary code if a happens, you do be. If a happens you do be.
Speaker 6:If a happens you that's all there is to it. That's a part of the problem that is a part of the. It's almost impossible to be a human in uniform? Yes, sir, and I have to. That is a problem. That is a problem.
Speaker 2:But we have to build a trust between our law enforcement in our communities and we have to get our elected officials to understand stop put it top, putting those, those Restrictions on your law enforcement officers, and let them be human beings that we. There's a reason why we pick cops from our communities. Okay, and in Texas, I will tell you our, our law enforcement agencies really do other than on a gender basis. I, or our law enforcement agencies really do you mirror our communities, maybe not to the extent we would like, but on a statewide basis, about 10% of our law enforcement officers are black and about 13% of our population is black About, you know, 35% of our population identifies as Latino, hispanic and about 35% of our law enforcement officers are Latino Hispanic.
Speaker 2:Females is a whole different matter, mm-hmm. Females make up 50% of our population, only 10% of our law enforcement officers, something that needs to be addressed, without a doubt. Yeah, but it still does not stem the issue of okay. It also, by the way, we can talk about the inequities. You know that the Law enforcement has contacts with 72 million people per year. 25 24% of them, consistently, are African Americans, are blacks right.
Speaker 2:Why is that if? If blacks only make up 12, 13% of the population, why is it they're represented in the context of law enforcement at double that rate, mm-hmm? Well, if we assume it's because they're blacks, then when we take color out of them, we say okay. We look at calls for service. Where they're not officer initiated, they're responding to calls for service. The officer has no idea skin color of the individuals involved. Okay, it's still 24, 25%. There's other factors that we're ignoring in this process that we have to look at and it has to be a holistic approach. It can't just be blame the cops.
Speaker 6:Well in some of your point. I agree with that, though I'm never, I'm never not Agree with that. But I do think and I don't mean to cut you off but I do think that, as as cops are the first people to show up, like, again you said earlier, you all are the face of the government good, bad and indifferent. Right Like. We have to address that, because before I get into the courtroom, before I deal with a shitty judge or city prosecutor, I have to deal with it with an officer and and if we agree that that our elected officials are, are taking away the human discretionary power for the, the person in uniform, to make a judgment call. Right Like it's just a. It has every potential to be just a very shitty down hill effect.
Speaker 2:But we can't address that first and then deal with the other issues. That is a result of the other issues. We can't just say deal with the cops first. Think about this you have.
Speaker 6:I'm agree with you. You don't even have to go down the right because I'm I'm agrees, but I do. I do think that we, we should, or we shouldn't not, address some of the issues with policing to take on other stuff. I think we can do like we're human beings, we're, we're capable enough, and I say that. So wait, wait, wait, I promise you, well, two of us.
Speaker 6:But I'm still trying to have faith in humanity because, like, it's just getting tough these days. But I think we're capable enough as Sentient beings to be able to, like, have multiple discussions and do multiple things at once. Right, like, while we are Trying to fix the bigger issues, like, let's also address that we have some problems with policing, that's it. Okay, not not saying again, not not not to say like, all these issues, everything wrong with fucking society, is pleased, because I'm not that guy, I won't show up to that rally right, I'm not that I know like right, but but like there are Right, it's a threshold, yeah, okay.
Speaker 2:It doesn't mean wherever that threshold is, it doesn't mean we don't need to address everything.
Speaker 6:That's on the side of it and I said this. I said this on record in Austin. I think the biggest problem that we have in the city of Austin is I. I said that and I agree with that, but, like Police, might be two or three, but the number one issue we have in the city of Austin is our school district.
Speaker 1:What, what, what issues would do you have with Austin PD? Hang on, I got one thing really quick.
Speaker 5:You mentioned four about you want cops to be more human when they show up. When I took the test to get hired in garland in 93 there was 800 and something people took the test showed up to take the test to get hired Now across the state. Sometimes, they can't get double digits to show up and take a test and some in this isn't a sympathy.
Speaker 3:This isn't a sympathy Right, I promise, but community police and cops have been doing it forever but sometimes in the way things have been the culture and law enforcement lately cops are like I can't freaking win, and I know you're on social media. You'll see the cop get out and you know, it might be a community event so he gets out of dances and basketball with them. Or either he's out hooping and all the comments yeah, I'm not paying this fat ass, so I'm not paying him to dance.
Speaker 6:Get your ass in your place. It's not funny, but it is funny, but it's your idea.
Speaker 1:He's out there trying to freaking be human and dance with the you know, at the community event or get out and chunk a football for five minutes.
Speaker 3:And all you get is be up over it, get your government car, get your fast. You're playing like man. He's trying to actually be human for a few minutes and having trouble keeping your face in the mirror.
Speaker 2:Imagine what that's like for cops.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Have you ever read now?
Speaker 2:Law enforcement you're going to. You know, gone through police academy or gone through the system Police academy?
Speaker 6:No, no, I don't write out. Yeah, we can make it, we'll set that.
Speaker 1:Tune in next week for part two.
Speaker 7:I was clouded blood of my face. No mercy coming my way. Yeah, I'm only getting started. Crack knuckles, the fish shaking, these rivers run, but I'm staying. Yeah, I'm only getting started. My bones don't lie.
Speaker 4:They're broken, but they still got fine. I'm only getting started, I'm only getting started, I'm only getting started. You set my fire. Those flames are getting higher and higher. I'm only getting started, I'm only getting started, I'm only getting started.
Speaker 7:It's great gravel from the palm of my hands, Skin with it from the wind and sand From the valley where I used to live. I'm the storm heading over land when the wind came my bones don't lie.
Speaker 4:They're broken, but they still got fine. I'm only getting started. I'm only getting started. You set my fire. Those flames are getting higher and higher. I'm only getting started. I'm only getting started.
Speaker 7:I'm leaning out, but my fear is gone. I'm hollowed out, but I carry on. My bones don't lie. They're broken, but they still got fine. I'm only getting started. I'm only getting started.