#135- "Shot Four Times, Then Forced to Fight Workers’ Comp" with Jaclyn Skinner

In this episode of the Blue Grit Podcast, we sit down with Wood County Sgt. Jaclyn Skinner, whose life changed the moment she walked into a cluttered house to serve a warrant.

Inside, she spotted a familiar tattoo through a partially open shower curtain.

Then gunfire erupted.

Sgt. Skinner was shot four times. In the middle of the chaos, she fought to survive and helped get her partner out alive.

But the shooting was only the beginning.

What came next was a brutal recovery, delayed treatment approvals, denied equipment, and a Texas workers’ compensation system that forced an injured officer to fight for the care she clearly needed.

Joining this episode are John Wilkerson and Bryan Flatt from the Texas FOP and TMPA legislative team.

Together, they break down why the system continues to fail injured first responders, how utilization reviews and contested case hearings can delay care, and why officers often cannot simply use their regular health insurance when workers’ comp stalls.

They also explain the legislative fight to fix the system, including how a widely supported reform can pass the House and still die in the Senate.

This conversation goes beyond one shooting.

It exposes the physical, mental, and financial toll injured officers face after the headlines fade. We discuss PTSD, peer support, rural agency staffing, confidentiality concerns, and why fear of being labeled can keep officers from getting help.

The message is simple:

Getting shot should not be followed by getting denied.

Injured officers should not have to battle the system after surviving the streets.

And every officer who believes, “If I get hurt, they’ll take care of me,” needs to hear this episode.

Hit play now. Subscribe, share this with a coworker, and help make sure injured officers are never left to fight alone.

Transcript

Ambushed Serving A Warrant

0:00

And all you see is just partial bike and uh tattoo and matching the one he has. I'm familiar with the subject and inside this resident, so you just start shooting from behind the charcoal. Never see anything gun before I start shooting, so I get hit four times.

Welcome Conference And Legislative Team

0:21

Another officer gets hit from what viewers, watchers, listeners, I'm your host, Tyler Owen. We got a jam-packed full agenda today on the Blue Grit Podcast. Appreciate you guys tuning in. Uh first and foremost, if you've not registered already for the Texas FOP TMPA Joint Conference, July 24th to the 26th, jump on TNPA.org and get those registrations done. It's a great networking opportunity for you and your family to come attend one of the biggest law enforcement conferences in the state. Uh, it's really phenomenal. So again, tmpa.org, go ahead and get your registration updated and uh and register for conference July 24th to the 26th there at the Dallas Hyatt Regency in downtown Dallas. It's gonna be a good time. Speaking of FOP or Texas FOP, to my left, we've got Texas FOP chaplain and 112 vice president Brian Flatt. And to my right, the man, the myth legend, John Wilkerson of the legislative team, both of these guys who is the 112 president. We're gonna talk a little legislative things going on today. He's got a guest that he wanted to bring on, Jacqueline Kinner from Wood County, uh, that kind of highlights something that you've been working really, really, really hard on the last several sessions. And so it deals with the workers' comp. But J Dub, Brian, what the hell are you guys up to? What's going on? Good morning. Good morning. I'm usually uh I'm uh I feel like I'm a little more energized than you are, Brian. Isn't it because we're not in the capitals, the Capitol hallways? I haven't completed the first cup of coffee yet. And we're not letting get started on a second one either. Yeah. So what's going on with the session right now? Well, ahead of the session, uh, some interesting things are kind of playing out. Just wrapped up the runoff elections last night. Yep. Uh congratulations to Maze Middleton. I think he's gonna be phenomenal Texas AG uh ahead of uh I guess he's the AG elect uh or will be. Is that correct? Well, no, because you still have the general. Oh, that's right. November. That's right. That's right. So he is the Republican nominee. Correct. Uh for Nathan Johnson out of Dallas that's the Democratic nominee. Any back history on on the on the uh Democratic nominee? No, um, you know, law enforcement, we tend to get stuck on this Republican versus Democrat thing. I know. And you know, one of the things that's really hard to get through a member's brain is is if you go back and look at the history of things, we got all of our protections, namely from the Democrats, and we got all of our tough on crime laws from the Republicans. That's pretty much what we've seen in the in the in the past couple years, we I'm not gonna call it a flip on that, but you you're starting to see even some of the Republicans supporting bills that are a little bit weaker on crime. Right. Um, and then you're also starting to see some Republicans that are a little bit more in tune with job protections. Okay. So, you know, keeping that dividing line and just getting on the hot button topics that that we all love to get on single-issue politics, just please stop doing that. Well, the case in point, though, I mean, like you guys have many offices, and of those offices, I'm sure they're split 50-50, 60-40, Republican-Democrat. Listen, we don't care what what party you're a part of. If you're gonna help us uh, you know, move forward with the mission of making law enforcement safer, better, uh, and collectively all a whole, we don't we don't have a party affiliation, right? We're we're about law enforcement. And so that's that's kind of the key point. Took me moving out here and being a part of you guys to kind of realize that, but you're right. I think to your point, you think Democrat, uh you think automatically anti-law enforcement. You think you know, not pro-law enforcement. That's completely not true. I mean, look at look at Whitmire there in Houston. Yep, uh, phenomenal track record of supporting law enforcement, huge friend of law enforcement, huge friend of TMPA, quite honestly. And look at what he's doing for Houston. And so uh he's completely turned that city around, the culture, the morale of Houston Police Department. And it goes back to uh kudos to uh John Whitmeyer. Yeah. Uh he's and he's always been a friend of TMPA. And he's always been a friend of law enforcement. Um, I I forget who rolled out some propaganda about HPOU dropping their endorsement. That was a complete fake story. I don't I don't know where it came from, but I called Ray and I'm like, man, are you what's going on here? Um and Ray says, Man, that's a fake story. We we still fully support John Woodmother. Yeah, I can't I can't imagine why they wouldn't. Speaking of Ray Hunt, though, again, these guys, Brian and JW, for those that don't know or have not uh lived under a rock, they've been on the podcast several times. They are legislative liaisons, huge instrumental role. They really do work behind the scenes, and they're the unsung heroes of carrying out the mission of TNPA. Every single offseason of the session, these guys work with other legislative stakeholders, for example, HPLU, DPA, to kind of figure out you know, what's the what's the trajectory? What are we looking at for the next session uh as far as the legalities are concerned and the upcoming session for bills and so forth and maintaining those relationships in Austin at the Capitol, uh, it's really imperative to our mission. And so again, the Yung Sung heroes of TMPA that work kind of behind the scenes, these two guys are busting their butts, walking the hallways of the Capitol and maintaining those relationships during the offseason. But, you know, right, we're in off season right now, and uh just because the elections just came up doesn't mean these guys are sitting on a beach somewhere drinking a pina colada. They're uh they're full-fledged ahead and they're they're working hard. I'm getting some ice there. I guess Brian did did just get back from vacation a couple weeks ago. No? Yeah, yeah, okay. All right. I was two weeks on the road working. You were, yeah, that's right. Well, and you're also an instructor, uh, former training coordinator for TMPA, and so you like to, or you you fill in when you can, whenever those other instructor classes uh don't have instructors to do that, right? And I was in DC for police week. That's right. With peer support with support services, and then a meeting I was home for like 14 hours back and then back on the road or traveling to go teach. I'm not I'm not sure if Michelle doesn't pay their executive staff to keep you away from the case. She does. I mean, there was a time she's like, you know, hey, when when are you gonna be home for a while? And I'd be home for a while, and then she'd be like, when are you leaving again? Yeah. I can leave now. Well, I know Michelle's gonna be tuning into this episode. Huge congratulations to her and her new upcoming role with Georgetown Police Department. Super uh proud of her. Uh, you know, again, TNPA is a family, and so when our spouses that quite honestly did bust their ass and and help us complete the mission, when they're able to uh be successful professionally, uh, we're gonna be there and be their biggest cheerleader. So again, congratulations to Michelle Flatt on being the uh communications or excuse me, the community services uh victim services. Okay, victim services coordinator for Georgetown. That takes a lot of compassion. And she's a TMPA member. And she's a TMPA member. There

Jacqueline's Career And Rural Policing

6:32

you go. Finally. Well, hey, we got an interesting story uh out of Wood County, Jacqueline Skinner. Uh JW brought this forward and said, hey, we got to get her on the podcast and kind of explain uh the challenging situation that she was faced with. But that's not the beginning of the story. I think that's that's that that's that is the beginning. There's more of a workers' comp issue that we're trying to work through. And uh man, thank you so much, Jacqueline, for driving down. I'm I'm me being an East Texas boy, I know how far it is, and uh taking time out of your busy schedule. We've greatly appreciate it. And to let others know, kind of this is the the ugly fact of getting getting injured on the job while serving your community. So Jacqueline Skinner, welcome to Blue Crit. Thank y'all for having me. Let's start off by talking about kind of where you started off in law enforcement, uh where you grew up, and then what made you want to serve. Uh, we'll start there and then we'll kind of transcend into uh how you begin working for Wood County. Sure. I actually was born in Wood County and my dad was Air Force, so we moved around a little bit. And I started to there in that area, you have to be sponsored. So I applied for the jail or dispatch for Wood County, and they gave I've got a job in dispatch for Wood County and have been there since 2016. So I worked in dispatch until I was able to go to the police academy. We always talk about the fundamentals of learning this profession and then transitioning over. I think it's imperative for we talked about working in the jail or working in dispatch and having a full understanding prior, you know, to becoming becoming a cop. But some of our members out there that work in no offense plano, no offense Austin, or the surrounding central Texas areas, when you say sponsors, sponsored, they don't understand you have to seek a sheriff or police chief that's willing to kind of take a bet on you. They're not paying you while you're going to this. You have to pay for the academy yourself, or it could be grant funded with an EDCOG grant. Some that may have happened to you uh there in East Texas, but you have to be signed off. And so it's kind of a pre-check list of uh, yeah, we're willing to take a risk on this person and uh put them through on grant funds. And so you're not being paid, but it the academy's paid for. So that's kind of an extra step. I think it's it's speaks volumes of the continued service of the servant's heart of trying to get into law enforcement that you did uh by doing the route that you went. They partially funded it. I think we had to pay a small portion of it, but we I worked during the day and then went to night academy. So it was uh I never thought I was gonna get done. Nine months of L. Yes. I can't I've I had to go through a full-time uh four and a half months. There's no way I was able to get a nine months in, or just I wouldn't have been able to retain all that information over that period of time. So anyway, so you were dispatched, went to the academy, uh, you were sponsored by Wood County. Yes. Uh was the same sheriff? It this is my third sheriff. Okay. So I this is our current sheriff, and he just started it while is in the middle of his second term. He just ran on a pose, which is awesome for us. But at the time um I got hired and the next when I started, it was the day before he he got beat, so I was faced with a wow, you have to reapply. And so you don't know. You don't know what what's gonna entail during this election process. And for those that don't know where Wood County is at, we're talking about Minneola, which is a town just northwest of Tyler, uh right there on the Highway 80 corridor, just north of I-20 is kind of where Wood County sits. It's just beginning of the Piney Wood region of Texas. It's beautiful out there. Um but you almost can't get to it from here, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's uh it's another, of course, I was a little bit east, more east than that, uh, but it's it's a beautiful part of Texas, home of uh some really, really, really good people. Uh still you're it's a rule setting. So to kind of paint the picture of what these deputies and what what she went through uh what kind of area she patrolled. So you get out of the academy, uh, you're working patrol uh and kind of lay us out on the first couple years of being a deputy. I came out and was ready to hit the street. I've had a warrant list my first day while I we went and took the test, passed the test, I came, went and got all my stuff. I didn't even know how to put my duty belt together. Went to the sheriff's office, swore in and said, Hey Lieutenant, I have a a warrant list. Can we go arrest somebody? And so we um I was lucky to have some support and we have been a really proactive agency. So we continued with that. I am currently a patrol sergeant uh at night, and that's been my favorite role so far. Yeah. Being a supplemental supervisor there on patrols, it's uh uh it it's an experience, you know, it's an experience. So let's dive off into into the night that what what the situation took place, kind of give us the how the call unfolded, how you responded, and then how the other units were involved.

The Shooting And Seven Hour Standoff

11:33

Sure. So February 14th of this year, we got a warrant list together per usual, and we went and served a warrant. We weren't able to locate the subject, so we went and served it tried to serve another one. We had information that the subject was gonna be home. Um we showed up, this property's full of junk everywhere. Uh there's a main dwelling and then several RVs on the property. I see somebody moving around in one of the RVs, so we go and make contact. Somebody that I'm familiar with, a female. I have a good rapport with her. Uh I ask her about um the subject, and he she denies him being there. And we I didn't mean to cough on you. Um she denies him being there, but she's evasive, she's self-soothing. Everything in a roadside interview, you would search the car, right? Right. So I bring her away from the camper that she was in and just kind of talked to her about something else. She's still nervous, she's still looking at the house. I'm like, no, he's in there. He's he's gotta be in there. I ask her about the the cameras on the house. I said, Who has access to these? She says, just me. We go on and on, and um I said, Okay, well, just so that we can say that we did, do you mind if we just check the house? We had more than enough to go in the house, but um she lives there too, and I'm just so she she just looks distraught that she gives consent. We go in and clear the house, get through uh living room, kitchen, laundry area, go down the hallway, and the house is just full of junk. And the hallway, it's a small hallway with stuff piled up on the left side where you we have an opening coming up on the right, and it's a bathroom, and she says, You can open it. He's not here, you can open that door, and uh so I there's not room for uh I've got somebody clearing the room with me or the house with me. The other units were getting their vehicles to bring him up. There wasn't room for him to roll the door, so I reached on my own door, let it breathe, and the shower curtain was partially open, and all you see is just partial biceps and uh tattoo and matching the one he has. I'm familiar with the subject been inside this residence probably a half a dozen to a dozen times over the last seven years. And he uh I start ordering him out, he doesn't comply, I never see his face, he doesn't so he just starts shooting from behind the shower current uh never see a gun before he starts shooting. So I get hit four times uh the other officer gets hit once the first shot goes in my right arm and um I get hit twice in the neck, once in the hip. So one of the shots that one knocks the gun out of my hand and I'm not able to get back to my weapon. So I'm trying to get Hughes out, and then I go back down the hallway with my taser. Wouldn't advise that uh after watching that in a video, but um we get out of the house. We they ended up having to get him out of the window with the Hughes. Hughes is a deputy. He's uh a trooper. So they have to exfil him through a bedroom window, and he the subject keeps shooting throughout it leads to like a seven-hour standoff. So multiple agencies, DPS SWAT, Henderson, um county came out, they uh knocked him the roof, knocked a huge hole in the wall. Um he continued shooting, they they tried gas, they tried everything negotiations, but ultimately he um he was shot and pronounced dead at the hospital.

Emergency Transport And Early Recovery

16:25

But um after he was and I were axfield, we were treated on scene and um taken by personal vehicle to different hospitals in our county and well not personal, but patrol vehicles. Yeah. And then stabilized and transported to a bigger town near us. Was that a split second decision to transport y'all by vehicle? Because we've oftentimes on this podcast, we've had one other female also that was shot in the face. And had they not made the decision, some officers are hesitant about that, right? They they're hesitant about, oh my God, we're not an ambulance service. We can't we can't provide transport, you know, and and and some there are some departments that have policies maybe that are that are even against that. Is it your opinion or maybe your feeling that that night was a split second decision that ultimately may have even not cost you your life by waiting on ambulance? For sure. They so an ambulance won't go in until it seems secure, right? And so they were to meet us at an intersection which was probably less than a quarter mile from the residence and they weren't there. And so the deputy took me and it's our shift is I mean, there's typically at an agency like that, our shift your shifts are close and our shift is close. I'm really proud of my guys. They they know if one of us we we talk about it, we train for it, we we know if one of us is in it that we're taking you. It doesn't matter what policy says. Yeah, that's right. Well, kudos to you for doing that. So they transport you most likely to Tyler or they to Windsboro and then um so uh he tourniquets my arm on scene. I told him I think I've got one here, and I don't tell him about the neck because that at that point I don't think that I'm gonna make it. Um so and I'm in and out of consciousness all the way to the hospital, and I don't want them I know that they're gonna have to go back in the fight, so I don't want them dealing with that because these are people that we have at our family events, these are yes, we're brothers in blue, but we're we're family. So um get to the hospital and he has to go back into the fight and they stabilize me and bring me to Tyler and uh kind of don't know a whole lot until uh the next morning they go bring me into surgery my right arm which they the bullet traveled up from my at my elbow all the way to my bicep, ripped the bicep in my shoulder blade still. So uh they put some pins and screws, and we're still hoping that uh the bone will grow back. We're just waiting to see. So during that process, you woke up, obviously, you're you're now aware uh fully of kind of the recovery process or the what all took place the night before. You're met by your TMPA attorney and y'all kind of get a game plan for that. Let's kind of fast forward it's a little bit a couple months. Obviously, this is gonna be a long recovery. You got shot in the hip, shot in the arm, two two gunshot wounds to the neck. Um, and to this day you've still got some visible disabilities, uh, struggle walking and and and and things of that nature. I think police officers, you think, shit, if I get hurt, they're gonna take care of me. You know, I'm serving my community. Um, hats off to the VA, uh, but there's some problems there too. But you think wounded soldier, they're they're kind of set after that. They're gonna be taken care of. That's not the case with law enforcement. And I think this is something that JW and Brian have been fighting a good fight, and along with Representative Jarrett Patterson, of kind of identifying, man, these are some problems. I mean, you're shot. You've been shot four times serving your community, serving on warrant. Why why isn't Workers Comp helping? So kind of navigate around what your initial thought was. JW, you can chime in. Uh, you're also in, you know, and you've been involved with this process uh during her her struggles, but at what point did you kind of realize, man, something's

Workers' Comp Delays Denials And Appeals

20:47

not right? This was it the county HR, was it was it comp? Or just kind of explain the process. Well, I was sent home without wound care, um, and I was starting to, you know, order some supplies, order some and I was like, well, this doesn't seem like I should have to you know order all of this, buy supply all this. And so I started asking, they're like, Well, we need an order for these band there was only a one type of bandage that would either stay on or I wouldn't bleed through or it would rip skin off of me. And so they asked for specific they told me I had to get an order for the bandage. And so meanwhile I'm waiting weeks and because I can't buy I would have ordered it myself, but I can't I guess you have to have an order anyway. So they wouldn't order still to this day wouldn't order trauma shears or for me to cut and I'm like this doesn't seem right. What what does this benefit me? Yeah. Um and then I started going back to the ortho, and but I hadn't he was only wanting to look at this one injury on that he did surgery on, but I have all these other injuries and a lot of pain and ringing in my ears and I can't sleep and um when I do try to sleep, all I can think about is the shooting. You know? So everything that I was needing needed approval and everything needed a utilization review and that could take, you know, five to two weeks and I'm like, well I this is gonna affect how I heal, you know? During some of the legislative sessions that these guys have testified on, some of the state reps, you know, we we we often kind of think about you had insurance to the county, I'm assuming. Yes. Um and I know that they can't really cross-reference because it's workers comp. Was that even discussed of like, hey doctor, uh I've got personal insurance too. Like whatever doesn't workers comp doesn't cover, can I at least kick in my my health insurance that's covered through the county. I mean to get at least the adequate care that you need. Now and that's one of the one of the main many many problems that you have with the comp statutes right now is um I'll give you a great example uh two two great examples. Uh when I was injured in 09 fighting with a guy um again I'd never been through the comp system before I tell everybody when it comes to the comp, the uh veteran assassination, I mean veteran administration clinics are not very pleasant to go to and the only thing worse than them is Texas Workers Comp. So I got hurt. Really really quick story as I'm coming down I don't want to cheese grate this guy's face on the on the pavement so stick out my arm. And then so now I've got my weight his weight and the weight of a guy named Frank Haubecker out of Gillespie County that's cut you know coming down on top of us. And when I stuck my arm out I heard my shoulder pop and I immediately lost use of it and got in my patrol car drove to the to the ER uh they did an x-ray on it and they said follow up with your with your primary care physician. Okay so I followed up with my primary care set the appointment walked in the next day as soon as I said I was hurt at work they turned me around they said we don't we don't take workers comp cases I said well I've got insurance and they said no you can't do it that way so the minute the minute you say workers comp you're you're done when it comes to the to the medical offices uh unless they take comp cases and unless they take comp cases from the carrier that you that you have uh so you can't intermingle the two um just just to refresh everybody's memory 88th regular session uh we worked on house bill 790 that that representative patterns uh champion for us and and just to kind of reiterate what that bill does is that bill says if comp denies your claim great take your insurance do fundraisers whatever you have to do go get healed come back to work and then go through the appeals process and if you win carrier has to reimburse all your money they already have to reimburse uh uh private medical uh so if for some reason a part of it was accidentally captured on on a say blue cross blue shield plan blue cross and blue shield they can already go back and get some of that funding back problem with it is is is the the the rate of workers comp is less than Medicare so the the amount of money that they'd have to pay their attorneys to send those notices and everything most hospitals or most insurance carers like we're just it's not even worth it right so um but anyways uh that bill passed unanimously out of the House of representatives unanimously 148 voted for that there was one president not voting likely the speaker of the house and there was one asset gets over to the Senate and it dies a horrible death over in the Senate side so we we've we've been working continuing to work um great example last session one of the bills that that was passed um I forget the bill number on it uh but what that bill does is is it on these contested case hearings uh when when the comp denies a claim and now you gotta you go through your BR uh benefit review conference with with TDI after you get through that which typically doesn't resolve anything then now you got to wait three or four months to get to get before a SOA hearing and so one of the things that we championed for last session and and got it passed was now let's take Jacqueline for example if Jacqueline uh is is in a contested case hearing and it's easier for Jaclyn to get on say Zoom and attend that that hearing via Zoom she can do that. We wanted to make sure that that right whoever whoever calls that um is the injured employee. The way it's worded in the law is that it has to be mutually agreed upon and if it's not and if the TDI finds good cause then now they can they can order it either in person or on on video conference. But the most irritating thing is that just like Jaclyn and Brian chime if you want to 99% of the cases that you guys have testified to include Jacqueline they just want to get back to work. This isn't like a like they're trying to get the county over they're trying to get workers comped over trying to trying to get days off and go hang out in Puerto Rico. These are people that legitimately want to go back and serve their communities and yet they hit roadblock after roadblock of just trying to do the right thing. And so that's why this legislation is so important is like it's common sense. I mean there's some there's some bills out there that you listen to and you look at the language and you're like how is this not going to pass? You know and then you it's frustrating because when it dies in the Senate and it's all behind politics and other uh uh organizations out there that are trying to counteract this legislation being done because it it counterproduces to what their funding's gonna be. Yep. Um yeah you know and I I'm just gonna well maybe I shouldn't call them out but uh one of the insurance carriers last session was dumb enough to hand me a document and I can't remember the exact numbers I have to find that document again but it it breaks down all of their uh non-first responder claims and then their first responder claims the the number of claims presented were about the same as a little bit higher in in in in uh public safety I want to say there was something like 34,000 non-first responders and then 35,000 or something that were first responders. And then it showed how many of those claims were accepted and then how many of them were denied. What it doesn't say is is how many of these were accepted because a judge told you you had to accept them. And then how many of these are you claiming that you accepted when you claimed the the it that the injury was a compensable injury fancy term of saying hey you got hurt at work but then they turned around and they denied the extent of injury saying okay yeah that you know getting shot didn't cause you know your arthritis in your hip kind of kind of stupidity right so that that's what they do. So then how many of those are are saying oh yeah we we we accepted the claim for compensability compensability but we're not we we never accepted the extent of injury and so but what I found was interesting with that report is is the number of denials even though they they the the number of claims were about the same the number of denials for first responders were three to one so you know it's it's like okay you know you're you're denying three to one claims on first responders that are out here keeping our community safe how is this not uh uh you know something that that the Senate you know picked up and paid attention to but maybe this session we get some we get some movement would it not be safe to say too um I mean you've got the VA stuff and you've got like national and you're you're in the military maybe you can answer this I don't know would it not be safe to mirror something that the military offers for like national guardsmen I mean if they get hurt they're they're pretty much taking care it's not they don't have to go through this bullshit I guess is my point is well that depends on who activated them because the another another Patterson bill that he got uh passed was if you get injured active duty or if you're guardsman and you go active duty if you're if you're uh called to active duty on orders of the president of the United States then you're covered. Okay. If not if you're called by your governor then it falls under that state's whatever that's workers comp. Yeah. So so we're on the same boat. Yeah makes sense yeah yep and so um and and so that that's kind of that in a nutshell we we've got some other things that we're working on you know with comp this year. Obviously we've got to get issues like this fixed yeah um and and we'll talk a little bit more with Jack Jacqueline on some of the the the problems that she faced. Um but just some other things that we're gonna be looking at is is you know firefighters and EMTs they they have a presumption for certain cancers law enforcement's not in that and I don't know why we were never included in that uh but that's on our list is well there were fire I think they were fire related correct I mean so that back then they probably didn't have the four-dimension aspect of thinking outside the box of we typically show up first. Wood County I promise you shows up well before the fire department so maybe that wasn't thought of before for that reason. That's what I'm thinking and and you know it is what it is but you know that that hopefully will be you know something something small that we can get um you know put in there and then also adding jailers to that too. Yeah because you know you've got a lot of inmates that love to set jails on fire. And so they're they're breathing that same stupid stuff. So well yeah and and to to Jacqueline's point, you know, her her being a dispatch let's talk about the mental wellness aspect of this because uh obviously we talked about your physical injuries, uh some of them visible to this day, even though it happened back in February. What we don't see and what the general public doesn't see and your family doesn't see visibly is the mental turmoil that this kind of shooting being trapped inside a let's just call it like a meth house is kind of what I'm envisioning right in Wood County, no offense. Isn't that an East Texas mansion? Yeah it is man it's uh the mental aspect of that I've never been I've been shot at I've never been shot and I can only imagine when you close your eyes at night it it it messes with you. And I think um let's talk about the mental wellness within your agency and let's talk about how what the good they did some improvements of other coworkers. Uh we in law enforcement are trying to improve every day. Back to the VA's point the military I think has a a decent does a decent job on mental the mental wellness aspect law enforcement we're getting there we're not there yet by by any means and Brian you're a peer support chaplain for Texas FOP let's talk about the good the bad the ugly with the mental aspect that you went through and then how that how you're doing today I think you said it we're getting there we're not there yet I probably not politically sound for me to say but our like I said earlier our sheriff this is his he ran unopposed which is wonderful and he's starting to get things done that he wanted to to get done and but he can't magically make our staff double like we need. Like so many around I mean we all need that but we're running ragged and what's yes I've I've got PTSD and I've I have things that I need to work through that I'm not there yet. And and you may not ever be there and that's and that's okay. Right? It's it's how you deal with it and how you get through the day. But the other guys that were there they're back at work and all I want to do is get back to my team. Yeah. They're they're capable. It has nothing to do with their capability as as officers as as men but they I was they were my guys and so they were they're still trying to fight that mental health battle because we don't have other officers to relieve them. So you know fortunately um our sheriff and our chief deputies our chief came from he he worked for Wood County years ago and he worked for Greenville PD and we still have a really good relationship with them. We work with their SWAT a lot they responded that night and their mental health um team comes and helps us when we lost our uh Pollard black here they came over they rode with us so we didn't have to ride about ourselves they um so they're there for us their mental health I mean their chief texts me hey what do you need he has a place in Wood County actually and they so we do have resources and we do have programs that they're they're offering so I'm really grateful that it one that I was able to be shot in the United States of America and not overseas you know and that it was in Wood County and not in one of these liberal cities. Yeah so but we are not there yet and there are guys at at work right now that are still fighting mental health battles from the incident whether it be the I won't talk about their battles but and we don't have anybody to work for them so they can handle it. Yeah and I think I think what Jacqueline the point you're trying to make is is that some agencies across Texas bigger agencies such as in major metropolitan areas have the luxury sometimes of saying hey you know we've got people we can pull from from CID from special events from community outreach we've got people that can fill those boots on the ground for patrol and the patrol and I'll say this I said it when I was a captain at Harrison County it's patrol is the backbone of any agency. The struggle that what you're talking about is that sometimes administrations struggle with the fact that you've got these these boots on the ground that he have to fill and they're willing to help out but you can't be everywhere at one time. Brian you you've you've seen this across the state but you've also seen it across the country when rural what's the biggest things that they that you feel like they could improve on when it comes to peer support you know so oftentimes we see in major metropolitan areas or larger agencies that they'll they'll they'll give the officer some time you know some time off but in these rule settings this where Jacqueline works at they don't have that luxury they don't have the luxury of kind of being able to take off a week or two to kind of get right mentally so they're kind of forced back into the work work aspect and some people that's great because it gets them back into the routine of being a cop again and working with their teammates but sometimes it can be also negative. Yeah so in particular with our smaller agencies like Jacqueline is talking about they don't have enough manpower to come in and say hey we need whether it's one, two, five, however many officers and deputies go get some assistance and now we can send our detectives in our other specialized units, depending on how how big that agency is not everybody has that luxury to do that. If you have that good working relationship with a neighboring agency that has the manpower to be able to come and help a state resource like Texas DPS whoever to be able to come in and go, hey, can y'all come in and help we we we need to have this well part of that is the leadership right can they make the decision is there a guideline that they can go by and I'll talk a little bit about something else that we're working on in the mental health world for law enforcement in a bit is there a plan in place right we can't plan for everything right just like we can't train for everything. But if we have those resources available if that leader, whether it's chief sheriff constable whoever it is, if you have somebody that truly cares about their people, say, look, I I can see that they're struggling they need some help I'm gonna do everything I can to try to get them whether it's one day off a week off whatever it is to get them the assistance that they need to be able to come back to work where we

Mental Health Peer Support And Staffing

38:05

can go do our job. Right. On the workers comp side of that is when officers get hurt, they just want to come back to work they they've already filled X number of years they're they're already looking for that that day that day that they can say okay today's the day that I'm now eligible that I can walk away for any reason whatsoever. Well if they knew that going in that everything is not going to work in their favor should something happen, well why get into the job right and we'll talk about that on why we're gonna be testifying tomorrow in the hearing of the the mental health side the peer support side of things of even if we can just go and say not everybody has the resources even if that's I don't know a thousand plus times that I've been told once an officer came back to work and it was like nobody checked on me. Nobody would even talk to me. Well a lot of that has to do with because they don't know what to say. That's right. They don't they they care most of them care. They just don't know what to say. Well the old adage of hey are you okay we're gonna say what we're okay yeah right and it's hey how are you holding up and like I tell people in the in the peer support side of things is even if you just need somebody to sit there and be quiet with you, that's what we do. Yeah and at some point in time I've got the shoulder for you to lean on we'll have the conversation I have the resources available to get you professional assistance outside of that but it's the the struggle that these small agencies are going through I mean there's you can name it I mean you can list it alphabetically everything from the mental health side of things to the salary to the manpower all that kind of good stuff. At the end of the day it's do we care about our officers? And that's what we have to try to convince state legislatures on is help give us the all these protections. If y'all say that y'all care about the world of law enforcement then give us everything that we possibly can. We know at some point in time there's a financial side of things and there's a budget item that has to be put on it but there's almost 2800 law enforcement agencies in Texas and not everybody's Austin Dallas, San Antonio, all that kind of good stuff they're Wood County. Well I think it sometimes I think that the the multi-agy jurisdictional issue y'all use Odyssey for your report writing? No we used to we still utilize Odyssey right now it's COPSync button Cop Sync. Okay prime example but I think the point is is let's say that DPS uses DPS's database y'all use what you know uh odyssey uh Miniola uses CopSync so you have all these reporting aspects and I think that's where which is a minutiae right that I mean that's a small shift that needs to happen when I think that's why sometimes you have the challenge of multi-agencies coming in and assisting because okay well if would if Wood County's going to Rains County or going over to Greg County to help out with the report how is this going to work on the the CID aspect which is I mean it's like it's minor we'll figure that stuff out later on um I think we were pretty good at figure I mean Grenville's not all that close to us and we wrote it on a document and handed it in the do that that's phenomenal. That's awesome. It really is they rode with us and I mean they s yeah it's a good team that we have with them but I think the the budget item I mean we have a sheriff that's fighting for us to try to get more officers and we that we have a county judge and an auditor and a county commissioners that keep saying no but well let us know uh how we can help we uh will gladly take on the burden of uh picking a fight with politicians that aren't committed to public safety we just won that battle in Polk County thank you judge city murphy you're out of a job anyway back to the story yeah and I I just for for the administrators listening to this podcast um HB 33 was passed last session that was the Uvaldy Strell Act and that that bill requires every agency that is identified by the sheriff and DPS that may respond to an active shooting event at a school they have to enter into an MOU. So you already have the legislative groundwork put down there for you don't forget to include the mental health aspects good point of of making sure that that's included in there. So great point to your mental health aspect of of your recovery process how did that play into a role with the workers comp and what barricades or roadblocks kind of popped up during that during that uh mental health recovery so I it was well over a month into the after I was home and I was asking for some sort of help um and I had to get a referral from my orthopedic surgeon for and after and the referral was he wrote on there for PTSD after he talked to me for a little bit and I had to wait for approval for that because and you can't just go talk to somebody they have to have a referral and then they gave me two options in the state of Texas and neither I was comfortable with so I was given resources through TMPA, my sheriff's office. Can you disclose on what those options were or they're not I mean if you'd like but um and then the other ones um private practice. Okay. So I think this is a good opportunity to to really talk about how I came to know Jacqueline okay um freaking what was that was it March when I made contact with Jacqueline and the reason I made Contact with Jaclyn was, and I don't even know if Jacqueline knows about this, but so let's go back in a little bit of TMPA history here. Um, Mitch Slaymaker uh was uh deputy executive director here and past president. Yep, and past president. And so I guess Mitch lives next to Jacqueline's father. Okay. So I guess Jaclyn was talking to her father about problems with workers' cop and that kind of stuff. Well, Mitch Slaymaker's like, well, I know a guy that knows. Yeah. So I get a phone call. He's like, hey, can you just reach out to her and see if she needs any any any help on anything? And uh so reached out to her, had a had a conversation with her, and she was not making a whole lot of sense. But she kept saying that she's not able to sleep. And you know as well as I do, when you get sleep deprived, and then especially if you're going through all this stuff, and so you know, she she was communicating to me that she had asked for a specialty bed that she could get in and out of easier. Uh obviously when you got bullet holes in your hip and shoulders. Um and and it took uh comp, I think you told me it took him four weeks to screw that up. Yes, they denied it. Yeah. Uh so within about a day, uh, and and big shout out to our to our partner organizations on this, uh HPOU, Harris County Deputies Organization, um uh what's that uh Dallas ATO? Yeah, Dallas ATO and the uh First Responders Association of Texas. Uh within a day, we were able to order a $5,000 bed and get it dropped off at her house in about a week after that. Uh that really it's a specialty bed that relieves pressure points on the shoulder and on the hips and zero gravity and all the bells and whistles on uh but uh so that's that's how I came into contact uh with Jacqueline and just being able to identify, hey, you know, let's let's break this down to ground level. She's not making much sense because she can't sleep. So let's try to address that problem real quick. Uh get that. And I've been staying in contact with her about you know some various things with workers' comp. Um, you know, uh she's she's asking me some questions about, hey, they're they're dragging their feet on this. And sadly, you know, I wish I could tell Jacqueline when she reaches out to me, I wish I could tell her, well, hey, this is how we fix this immediately. But there is no immediate fix with this broken bureaucratic system that they have called the Texas Workers' Comp system. So uh, but uh, and then on another conversation I had with her, just checking up on her, uh, we addressed the mental health stuff and uh me knowing how comp sucks and especially how much it sucks with with uh mental aspect of it. Um I gave her Kathy Boostos' number and asked her to reach out to Kathy Boostos uh from that peer support couple. And uh, you know, and then I don't know if she's reached out. I I don't want to get into that conversation piece with her uh because I, you know, I think some of those things need to stay between. Yeah, for sure. Um but it it's resources that she may not have have had before in the networking aspect. Uh, you know, that we're happy and honored to facilitate those, right? And I'm sure a lot of other statewide organizations have the connections we do. Uh, but I think it's the mission. I think, you know, kudos to UJW for for kind of going the extra mile, uh, Mitch Slaymaker for reaching out and identifying, and kudos to your dad. Um, he's obviously a proud father of a young, uh, independent woman that's struggling through something that was going on right then, and and uh chose to reach out to people that that he thought could help and and they came through. So I think that's the honor aspect of it, uh, me being a dad of a f of a of a daughter. Uh man, it it takes a lot to ask for help. And especially I can already tell that you're really, really, really independent. And uh you probably don't like to ask for help when it when it's needed. So um, but again, TNPA is kind of a huge family, and it that that whole situation right there just kind of confirms it all. Yeah, and that Jacqueline really illustrates just just what TNPA is about, right? If look look at TMPAs, let's just you know, as if we're gonna be throwing out like a recruitment speech, right? We offer the insurance part of it, right? So the night of the shooting, we sent out a lawyer to her shooting scene and that lawyer showed up to her hotel. But then look at what else we do. We do charities. Yeah. Well, you know, part of part of TMPA charities, when people donate that money into charities, then that's how we can take some of that money and buy that specialty bed for our member who's trying to recover, right? Yep. And then you have the legislative side of it. And so, you know, now Jacqueline's gonna be able to help us out. And it's sad that she has to, but now she's gonna be able to help us out, and she's gonna be able to see on on this side of it as well. So Jacqueline, and I'm you're you're about to see what everything TFA is about because you're you're getting all of our services. And and and and I I want you to know that you know, we're gonna continue providing you every service that we can. Um, and and you know, we get real passionate here about the things that we that we get involved in, and and we're we're really looking forward to working with you alongside you uh this next legislative session to try to get your story before these policymakers so that way they can pull their head out of whatever sand it's in when it comes to the comp stuff and help find meaningful resolution. Had you ever experienced or heard of a workers' comp disaster until you have lived through this nightmare right now, or did you even think it was possible? Not to this extent. Approximately a year prior, I was in a fight and had a concussion and I just gave up. I was like, well, I'll fix it myself. Yeah, because it wasn't life altering, right? This life altered, we just talked about this while ago. I just got enough to get back to work. Yeah, I was like, I'll just do this. This is not worth it. It was a pain. I couldn't I I didn't deal with it. Yeah. Now I have to deal with it or else you know, like I I've been and I do remember the conversation he's talking about. I I was I hadn't slept in weeks. Yeah. And I wasn't wasn't even on pain meds because they when it I couldn't even get those, they wouldn't get my medicines right. But um I just like I don't I was just telling them, Oh yeah, they didn't they denied CTs or they're waiting for approval for this. I can't get approval for PT. I can't get approval for um just basic things I need. And since then I've gotten a denial for a bone stimulator, I need to grow a bone back in my arm so I can shoot again. Um I needed a hand specialist so I can get some movement back, but um I remember that conversation. I was like, sorry, I I promise I don't I can speak. I just am I'm so tired. And whenever he called back and said that, you know, hey, we're able to get you this bed, it just because at home I'm I couldn't I can't I couldn't dress myself, I couldn't get in and out of the shower, the bathroom, I can't get in out of the bed. So um and workers comp had uh denied the hospital bed and denied the specialty bed. And then well they took about I think it was four weeks to say that they needed an appeal and anyway.

Why The System Stays Broken

51:07

So that was just to be able to sleep and get in and out of the bed without having to call somebody is That's crazy. You know, and if you know in Texas we have what like 82,000 peace officers, about 25,000 jailers, corrections officers. If if a basically a hundred thousand people in Texas decided one day, you know what, if this is the way it's gonna be, if I get hurt, I'm just gonna walk away now and just go find something else to do. What's Texas gonna do? Yeah, right? If a hundred thousand truly knew what this process, how it's failing so many people, why stay in it? That's right. Why stay in it? That's true. And let's piggyback off that, because some don't know this. You know, a part of our legal plan, we want to assist people that are on the edge or on the fence of maybe you know being terminated. And the sad part is why don't you touch on the fact that a lengthy uh workers' comp battle could could you could be subject to termination? There's not a whole lot of legal legalities at TMP. We're gonna fight for you, but yeah, there's not a whole lot there. Discuss that real quick because people don't know. Yeah, so a couple things. Um, if you're a civil service agency, you have up to a year. Um now they love to play on the words that you know is the the time that you have is commensurate with the injury. Well, okay, but who determines what the injury is? The comp company, you know, they they say, oh, it's a strain sprain, and they accept that. Why? Because when you go to MMI, uh there's no impairment rating for a strain sprain, and it's cheaper for them to cover. And then and then, you know, the worst injuries they're gonna they're gonna deny and deny and and make you go through these utilization reviews like like they're putting, they're currently putting Jacqueline through. Um and so, you know, a lot of a lot of our members reach out and they're like, hey, I need a lawyer to fight this, right? They're like, you guys give me a lawyer when I when I've gotten a shooting, and now I need a lawyer to fight this worker's comp. And I have to break the news to them that we cannot provide them a lawyer because there is a section in law that says the only way that an injured worker in Texas can have legal is that that legal representative has to be paid out of Jacqueline's income benefits. And then it's capped at 25% of that. What lawyer is gonna do that? Yeah, right. And so uh I, you know, I I got to finding where some lawyers have stepped up to do that and and they've taken money directly from, and I'm seeing where where they've been penalized through through the Texas Department of Insurance. Uh they're subject to a fine. I saw, you know, I I even found where uh I almost said the name of the company is uh but I even found where an insurance carrier violated that statute and had to pay a five thousand dollar fine uh about six years ago. Um so yeah, it's it's it's completely a mess, and it goes back to the tort reform days. Yeah. Um and and I get you know why it's that way and stuff, but it is just a mess. Yeah. Um, you know, I just I want to circle back to something that that Jacqueline has said. And I I really hope that we have legislators that watch this and and and and and hopefully they will ask this simple question to an insurance carrier. I understand if you have a deputy that you know was getting something out of the trunk of her car and she falls backwards and breaks a wrist. Right? Um, I I get where there there could be some confusion into, hey, is this injury associated with this? Right? So why does somebody why does a cop that got shot four times, why does that cop have to get approval to get a damn MRI? Yeah. Right? I mean, hello. You've been shot. Yeah, four times, right? I mean, it's just it it blows my mind. Uh, but that's part of the warfare that these insurance carriers use uh to try to just get you to go away and then claim, you know, and I don't know how you claim that one. Like like with me, I I guess I could have said I fell off my roof getting something off of it for my shoulder. Uh, but I mean, I don't know how she would claim, well, I, you know, I'd accidentally shot myself four times, right? I mean, how do you how do you bounce about it? It's just it's just crazy. But back to your question about the protections that you have. Um, so if you're civil service, you have that year. Uh, last session or session before, we got that extended to every law enforcement agency in the state of Texas. So now it doesn't matter if you're civil service or not. Outside of that, if you work for an elected official, there's a provision in Article III of the Constitution that says that you cannot be terminated because of that injury until that sheriff leaves office. So now, does that mean that that sheriff's not gonna find a different reason to let you go? Right. Right? So, and the longer it takes you to get back to work, the more inclined these agencies are are gonna be willing to take on you, right? So, and that's another aspect that we need the legislature to think about. We need the local policymakers to think about. When we talk about local policymakers, talking about your mayors, we're talking about your county judges and your commissioners and your city councils. Um we need all of them to understand that um and and and and and get on board with holding these these people accountable because I guarantee, I promise you, one of these, and and I'm gonna say they're the worst, it's they're the absolute worst one out there. I'm not gonna say their name because I now I associate them with a bad guy, and you just don't ever say the bad guy's name, right? Uh but that that particular entity um you know two sessions ago had a really bad reputation in the in the in the legislature. Several legislators called them out for lying openly. Um and and and if if the cities that participate in that, if they knew, if they if they would just click, it would just click. Hey, I'm paying this organization to provide workers' comp insurance for my employees, and I need them to get my employee back to work. If they knew all the runaround that these folks were doing, they would probably fire their asses and find another insurance. They may they may not, though. You just you never know. Well, uh there was one city, um, and and and I've got an article that we're gonna be sharing with the legislature, but there's a city in Texas where an officer was killed. Uh it was a car crash situation. The officer was killed, there was a settlement, uh, I think it was like an 18 wheel or something. But anyway, so the spouse got a lawyer and they ended up suing the insurance company of the of the other person. Okay. Well, what the spouse didn't know is that the insurance carrier is subrogated back, which means now that insurance comp carrier can step in and and and recover their money back out of that settlement. Oh my God. And and when they say no, what do they do? They sue the widow, like they did in this in this Texas city. But you want to know the shadiest part of it all? They don't sue under their name, they sue this, they sue under the city's name. So that would be the equivalent like the town that I live in, Kemner. If that happened to one of our officers and and and our comp carrier, which is the same damn comp carrier, by the way, I'm trying to figure out how to get away from them. If if if our city uh if that happened there, then it would be not so you know, whatever, whatever intergovernmental risk pool. It would be the Kemp the city of Kempner versus the widow. Kemner versus the widow. Wow. And that's how you know, and they and they hit they hide that in their in their contract line. Wow. That's incredible. Yep. Well, I can't kind of segues into kind of what we're another another thing that we're you know gonna briefly touch on here, but you know, there's a hearing tomorrow, and you know, we've talked about a lot of things, and Brian, you brought it up earlier. What happens if 86,000 licensees all of a sudden wakes up and and realizes I could be the next Jacqueline Skinner? Yeah. And so there's actually an interim hearing going on tomorrow in the House Homeland Security, Public Safety, Veteran Affairs Committee. They keep adding more things to that committee. Let's see. Uh, but it it has to do with studying workforce challenges affecting state and local law enforcement agencies, including recruitment, retention, moral injury, training and pipeline uh barriers. And that kind of fits right into this right here. And you know, we uh we asked Jacqueline to come down and tell her story before this committee. Oh, okay. She'll be down tomorrow that. Absolutely. Oh, but cool. And and so I I think that, you know, maybe, and I'm hopeful that maybe some of the light bulbs will start going off. Yeah. Uh and in on the house side, not really concerned about it, because like I said, they the House uh representatives, at least last session, they knew how screwed up workers' comp system was. And so uh, but we need to show them that they are, you know, they're not getting any better. And I would venture to say they're probably getting a little bit worse. Yeah, but I I, you know, not speaking for the Senate, we've got a lot of friends in the Senate. Uh there was some inner politics that were going on during that session um that was unfortunate, but it was almost like you know, that the house bill you're referring to just kind of fell victim to some of the typical Capitol politics that just happened, right? You're not taking a shot at any senator, not taking a shot at any house rep, uh, but it's just an enforced situation that that happens at the Capitol that has to deal with politics on killing bills and uh scratch my back, I'll scratch your situation. So we're hoping to get that done and you by laying the foundation tomorrow ahead of the next session uh during these some of these um testimonial situations. Yeah, so you know, we're gonna be working on workers' comp stuff. Um another thing that we're gonna be briefly, uh briefly talking about tomorrow. Uh, if we're talking about challenges that are keeping law enforcement out of the profession or hindering law enforcement coming into profession, uh another thing that you have to look at is is uh there's a lot of talk right now about property tax reform. Yeah. And uh if you go back and you look at Sennibill two or three from the second special session, this session, uh, it would have limited the ability for local governments to increase their property tax rate uh more than I want to I want to say it's like one one and a half percent. Currently it's three and a half percent. Uh if you're counties and there's certain stipulations on that, you could go up to eight percent uh on some situations. But nonetheless, uh the the problem that you run into there is is that property tax is one of the major funding mechanisms of public safety. So, you know, Representative Patterson again, um last session filed an amendment on the bill when it came out of the Senate that would say, hey, you know, uh you have to you have to take uh into account public safety. So whatever's needed to fund public safety should not be taken apart in that in that in that uh cap. And so it goes back over to the Senate. Senate strips that part back out. Luckily for us, neither side wanted to agree. Uh so it just it just died where it is. And you know, we we all pay property taxes, we get it, right? We get that. And I could I could go off into a long dissertation about how messed up that system is. Uh, but we just we're gonna ask the legislature, hey, keep this in mind when you're when you're setting these rules. Okay, let's have a carve out for public safety. That way we can start paying our deputies and our police officers more, we can give more benefits to them. Um, you know, think about it right now. There's a grant out there to set the starting salary of deputies in the state of Texas at $45,000. But see, I thought the Senate Bill 22 kind of kind of fixed all that, but even that's being perverted and and and mick and misused and and not being enforced the correct way.

Recruitment Retention And Funding Fights

1:02:01

Right. But but think about it in that. That money, think about the the counties out there that weren't able to pay their deputies not even forty-five thousand dollars a year. Right. Right? That's how you qualify for for getting that money. And you take that with other parts of Texas, you know, fantastic. They were able to at least get them to $45,000 a year. Right. When there's other places in Texas that are $60,000 more than that. So wait a minute, I can go be a deputy. And so then you're looking at, okay, why stay here? Well, I can go make another $60,000 over here, right? So what you're saying is I can make $34,000, get shot, and then my shit's not covered for workers' comp. Like, where do I sign up for that job? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and then you can't work security while you're out. Yeah. Which is a huge, I mean, that it's a it's a part of your life, you know. Which before we crack off into the next subject, little shout out to all of our members watching this. And Jaclyn, I don't know if you know this, uh, but hopefully you have reached out to the Texas Attorney General's office for crimes of victim compensation because you are eligible to receive money from the extra jobs that you can't work because of this. So if you did not know that, make sure you reach out to them. Uh, and all of our other members that get hurt on the job that that lose money from We know some people we'll just take care of. Yeah. And like speaking of that, like at any point in time, was anybody from your local DA's office their crime victims people, did they reach out to you? That you remember? Somebody from crime victims has contacted me, but um since it's a well asked you how it works later, but somebody's called me after I got out of the hospital. So we we we talked about the fact that the pay is low. We talked about the fact that if you get hurt, workers' cop is really gonna do you more damage than good. And one of the areas that they're gonna do you more damage than good is in the mental health. Yep. So Brian, you want to talk about what we're what we're looking at on the mental health side? Yeah, so looking at like we already have some protections now, but to really try to shore up the peer support um throughout Texas in their and the confidentiality in their I like like whenever I give people my contact information of hey, you know, because a lot of places are I don't, for whatever reason, the list is long. Uh I don't feel like I don't feel comfortable reaching out to a peer that's at my agency, you know. So like it's good for me whenever I say, here's my contact information, you never even have to, we never even have to look at each other. You can call, text, email, all that kind of good stuff in there, but really trying to shore that up because one of the the topics in tomorrow's hearing, they brought up the moral injury part in there, which that's a a whole section in and of itself on what is moral injury um in there, but to really try to shore up the confidentiality uh protections in there, and like I've already reached out to certain people that I know that are way smarter than I am, on here of hey, let me know what what language you would be comfortable with so we can start having this conversation in there of being able to, because this this committee that's in there, they're for the most part, they're 100% pro-law enforcement, right? You would agree, JW? Yep. They're 100% pro-law enforcement. But it's after that, whenever next session actually starts in there on how how how how much support do we have going forward in there? Where like the I already know from back the hearings that they had after the Kerrville flood. Right in there, there's a state legislature that was in that hearing talking about the flood stuff, who brought up the fact of he has a a friend, a very close friend, or something like that. There was a firefighter and had already been in contact with them and talking to them about all the emotional side of things of what they saw out of there. And that state legislature, uh legislator actually brought up about peer support. There you go, that we need a stronger peer support. And I remembered that, and all I gotta do is go back and find that date because it's recorded. And if if if we need it, I'm gonna say if you'll refer to that video right there. Yeah. So if they if they try to say that they don't want this, say, well, back on this date you did. Yeah. And there. But if they're trying to strengthen the law enforcement workforce, this is part of it. That's right. Right. We're never gonna make they, since we're not working anymore, they're never gonna make enough money. Right. They're never gonna make enough money. But it's it's said time and time again, I will, I will keep this forty-five thousand dollars in this part of Texas because I have a really good boss. I have a really good leader in my agency that cares about us, and they're they genuinely help us. And I'll stay here for 45 versus going somewhere else to make a hundred thousand. I completely agree with that. With that chance of having that not so nice boss right there, right? So that's gonna be one of the topics. And Brian, just to touch a little bit more on that, the the problem that we're looking at fixing in there um is that little that little blip in the law that says that it's confidential unless the court uh or the fact finder, so if it's an internal affairs investigation, that fact finder may be your chief of police. And so it's confidential unless they determine that and I've got it written down here. The wording is like it may. They may. Okay. Yep. They they may allow disclosure if they figure, if they determine that disclosure is more important than protecting the privacy of the officer. So that's a pretty wide road that you can that you can go down to find out, you know, hey, at what point do I say my my reputation as a chief administrator and whether or not I'm getting out in front of this in in in enough time, or you know, I've got an officer that I dislike, and now that officer got involved in a critical incident, they have their peer, and you know what? Maybe the officer, maybe the first thing that that officer said is, you know, our chief's a freaking dumbass. How come he's not paying for the stuff that they need to pay? And now if that chief finds out that he said that after that highly emotional event, now that that officer can be terminated. And so we gotta we gotta get that loop. And I think the true intent of that is like what is already taking place in peer support is I can have that conversation with somebody, and it's completely confidential unless that person, male or female, says that they are gonna go hurt themselves or go hurt somebody else. That's when it's no longer confidential, and I start trying to reach out to prevent somebody from getting hurt. Right. Outside of that, that's just it doesn't make sense uh on how how some of this stuff is written um in here for the protections of us. If if you want if you want us to be healthy physically and mentally, then we need all this in place. Yeah, law enforcement's not pretty, and it's not easy, right, to kind of work to the and that's why that's why the beauty behind what you guys do is you're trying to correct that on the legislative front and work with these legislators to get this stuff done. And sounds like we're just doing that, and Jacqueline's a prime example of that. We're happy to kind of her join this uh this fight uh or the uh the team, right, to to get the workers' comp situation rectified and corrected. So I think that I mean that's part of the reason that we're scared to to talk. I mean, we're in general more paranoid individuals anyway. But one of the first times I started talking about mental health, they handed me a paper for PTSD and said, fill this out. I said, and if I do, where does it go? I said, I don't want to fill this out. You know, so this would be that would be great. Yeah, for our non our non-law enforcement people out there that don't understand what we're talking about, what what what Jacqueline's referring to is that you know, there's a barrier there. Uh when sometimes these PTSD events like this take place, the the scary part for cops is that we don't want those in our personnel files. Uh and the reason for that is because it could be discoverable for defense and and really affect cases that we care about because we go out and do the job of law enforcement that could uh taint our ability to testify for these events that were for the arresting uh aspects or during court proceedings. And so to her point, we shouldn't have to live like that. We shouldn't have to live in fear that these you know PTSD moments or peer support moments or outreach moments should not affect our personnel file uh and be accessible to defense attorneys. And so to her point, I want to kind of bring that up for our non-part of the PTSD is trying to get people to recognize this is not a disorder. It's right. If you're gonna say it, say either post-traumatic stress or post-traumatic stress injury. If we're injured, we have the chance to be healed. Right. Yeah. Yep. And well unless you're covered by comp, then and that's part of the the talk for the support stuff and the mental health side of things is the workers' comp. Yep. Part of that. Yeah. I cannot uh so uh when our members call in, if it's a if it's a complicated one, uh field reps will ask me to reach out to the members. And I think just about every member that I've talked to that's been dealing with with comp and I've talked to a lot, each and every one of them have had two uh solid commonalities. That's what you touched on earlier, Tio, is they they're just they just want to get back to work. Yeah. Right? And then the second one is is a lot of them had had talked about because of what they're having to go through with comp, they feel like they have developed PTS because of because of the comp. That's a that's an accurate statement. And then so now now let's take it a step further and kind of how this twines into the next one. Um, you know, the the form that Jacqueline had to fill out or that they asked her to fill out so she could get the claim started. Okay, so now the chief of the department or the sheriff and Jacqueline, I'm not saying this is scary. You did you have to remember we we deal with over 2,800 law enforcement agencies in the state of Texas, and and some of them are pretty shady. Uh well and each one does the things differ completely different. Well, I didn't fill it out. No, I wouldn't either. So but the admin, you know, a lot of the administrators are shady. Uh we we deal with it a lot. Um and so now you have a chief of police that doesn't like Jacqueline and says, Oh, Jacqueline has uh a claim for PTSD. Well, you know, um here you go, Jacqueline, since you filled that out, and now you're subject to a fit-for-duty evaluation. Uh-huh. And now you go to a psychologist and the psychologist says, Well, I can't sign off on you if you've been diagnosed with PTS. And so now you're in this vicious cycle. Now you know now your peace officer license is is temporarily gone, and and now you're fighting this aspect of it. But then now, let's let's say that you know, Jacqueline does go um and and and fills out that paper and goes through treatment, you know, talks to talks to folks, and and everything's good to go. Well, what happens if she comes to work in say a county like Travis County, where you have a DA that's going to use that to put her on a Brady list? Sure. Right? And and so, you know, that and that that walks us into our next issue of, you know, with Brady list, uh Brady Giglio, non-disclosure, whatever the case it is, whatever the the prosecutors want to want to call it, uh, you know, we've seen where that that list has either been misused unintentionally, misused intentionally, or weaponized against law enforcement. And and so we we've got to get back to uh some common sense on that. And and so that's another thing that we're gonna be talking about. Um, is is you know, if you if you want to keep workforce in in in law enforcement, you want to keep folks in, then let's let's have an actual standard for putting somebody on this list and then have some kind of route to get them out of that list as well. Yeah, I agree, I agree. And you guys are continuing to uh put up the good fight there at the Capitol, and we're hoping we can get you know these workers' comp issues corrected. I mean, I'm I we've I don't want I don't want to be the dead horse, but sometimes you look back and you're like, how is this not common sense applicability uh for these these legislators? And it's just one of the things we gotta fight. So I like your point about her kind of taking it full circle of her kind of unfortunately uh being a part of every kind of service the TMP offers with the the legal aspect, the peer support aspect, the member services aspect, uh, and then the charity side of it. I think it's important. Um and now political. Well, and now and now political. And so uh, you know, the the the unique part about it is is to your point earlier, you were just kind of overwhelmed with the amount of service uh that some of the field reps and employees at TNPA have. The cool thing is that 20 years from now, when we're sitting at the conference, we're a family uh from that point forward. And so uh you get to kind of see the inner workings of how TNPA works. And so I'm it's unfortunate that this situation happened to you, but it's gonna be cool to sit there after we get good legislation passed, workers' comp and you to be a part of it. That's gonna be the rewarding aspect of it. I can't thank you again enough for coming down uh not only to testify before the House uh in these in these committees, but also to tell your story. It takes a lot of courage and takes a lot of um interpersonal things to to push that out there and put your stuff out there uh on the on this podcast. So on behalf of TNPA and Blue Grit, man, we we can't thank you enough. Thank y'all for everything because it's not just I mean, this job is probably one of the most selfish jobs you can do. Uh you know, our family don't they don't sign up for it. So um every communication we've had and all the support y'all have given us, I mean the bed you know, kids at home that an eight-year-old saying, Are you gonna be able to sleep in your room? Um you know these are the same kids that they look at you and say, I'm glad you didn't go to heaven. These are it doesn't just affect me, it affects our family. So sure. I really appreciate all y'all support. Yep. If there's anything I can do to help, so this doesn't happen to other officers. I'm to help the future. Um, I'm I'm here to help. Yep. Brian, Jdub, you got anything else?

Action Steps Rapid Fire And Farewell

1:16:24

Right here with a rapid fire of questions here in a minute. Yeah, uh just I want to touch on a few more things. We're not gonna you know completely uh describe them, but uh we're looking at a similar halo law like you have in Jakarta. Um that uh then also what we're seeing more and more of is is is violent suspects are not simply only taking or attempting to take the weapon from a peace officer, but you know, they're trying to steal our cars and steal our radios. So we're looking at revamping that statute to uh get uh get some get some more strength in there, and then also fixing that uh that loophole that they love to use in the peace officer uh transfer bill. Oh yeah. Uh so we'll we'll be talking on on all that tomorrow and and moving that part of our legislation. And a lot of people ask me, where do you get this from? Well, we get it from our members, like Jaclyn, who's going through this, uh along with all the other members that have been going through WorkersConf. We get uh, you know, maybe our board members will say, Hey, I've you know, I was attending this conference, and you know, somebody mentioned that they have this law, and maybe we need to get it there. Uh, but all of our legislative directives come from our board of directors, which in essence comes from our members. Yep. So And if you want to be a part of that, reach out to us at info at TMPA.org. We can put you in the right contact with the right person on the legislative agenda. And just like to J-Dub's point and and and Brian's point is that we get these quote unquote ideas for these bills from you guys, from the members of TNPA uh and members of law enforcement. You don't have to let me let me let me say this too. The difference between us and other organizations, you don't have to be a TMPA member for us to listen or to assist you in your legislative um affairs or your legislative ideas. We will happily assist if it makes sense, if it's good laws that make that make law enforcement better, man, we're here to help. And uh doesn't your your affiliation with us is is not a part of that that conversation. So again, reach out to us at infotmpa.org. We'll kind of shoot the um shoot the email over to these guys and let the team get to work on it. So and like last week, whenever I was up in the panhandle teaching, I brought up the fact that we're gonna be having this hearing tomorrow uh and ask them anything that you feel like from your perspective on the agencies that are representative here in this class this week, send me the idea. And if I get the opportunity, I'll present that either at the hearing or sometime during next session to let them know hey, you're not forgotten. Right, you're part of the 2800 law enforcement agencies, and I got an email this morning. There you go. It's about a page and a half of hey, you asked, and here it is. Here it is. Yeah, you asked your shell received. Yeah, and so that's part of it and they remember, and I said I'll do everything I can to get your idea out there. There you go. Well, this wraps up the podcast. Hey, do you have you seen any podcasts prior to you coming on? Are you aware of the rapid fire questions? We don't want to spoil it if you have not. No, I didn't watch the rapid fire. All right, okay. We're gonna ask you three rapid fire questions. You ready? I hope you studied. First, what is your favorite cop movie or line from a cop movie? What's your favorite drink of choice when you're hanging out off duty? And what's your favorite cop car? Favorite line from a cop movie or favorite cop movie is number one. Does it have to be a movie? No, it can be a show. Let's watch Smoking the Bandits. That's a good one. Yeah. Um and then favorite drink. Favorite drink of choice. Uh Gin and Tonic. Gin and Tonic. That's a unique one. I had not heard that's not been a favorite, a fan favorite one, but yeah. I have to try that out. I have to try that. Hasty not. What's your favorite cop car? I really like the Crown Vicken Academy. Yes, there you go. Crown Vicken is the best all-time police. We'll let the brakes on fire twice. I don't doubt that. I don't do that for sure. We had a lot of fun with it. Crown Vic is the number one, the number one answer for sure. Anyway, every once in a while you have somebody that'll claim the priest up the Caprice, the Impala, the Ta. The Tahoes are nice for the size, but it cannot beat the War Horse, the Crown Victoria. So as was our probably common-issue vehicles when we were back when we were policing. But anyway, hey again, TNPA Texas FOP joint conference, July 24th through the 26th, Dallas High Regency. Hope to see you there, Jack with us right down the road from you. It's maybe maybe an hour and a half drive. You can come hang out with the TNPA guys and gals and uh work on somebody. You get T Cole Credit. You get eight hours of T C Cole credit. First time in uh several years. We're gonna give eight hours of T-Cole credit out for the TNPA Texas FOP conference. Real quick shout out to the Ruby sponsors who want to talk about this home wealth management, uh, ATT First Dead and East Coast Amusement. Thank y'all so much for your Ruby level sponsorships for this conference this year. We look forward to hanging out with you guys, your teams, and for your teams to uh get to associate and hang out with our members there at our conference. Again, this is a family event. There'll be spouse spousal events on Saturday, spousal events on Sunday. Run changed up a little bit this year. By the way, we got cop karaoke going on Friday night. So if you're interested, you or your association can enter to uh to be the cop karaoke winner. So $50 entry fee, it'll go to TNPA charities, and uh we'll look forward to seeing you guys there. Plus, we got the purse bingo on Saturday, and I think we have another spousal event going on Sunday. Again, it's a very good networking opportunity. If you've never been, I strongly, strongly encourage you to go. You'll get to hang out with all of us and network with other law enforcement professionals across the state. Again, tmpa.org. Register now for the Texas TMP, excuse me, Texas FOP and TMPA conference July 24th through the 26th. Doug, appreciate stopping by, right? Appreciate you guys carving out some time in y'all's busy schedule to stop by the podcast. And absolutely it's always a pleasure, man. It's always a pleasure. But this wraps it up. You guys take care, stay safe. God bless you, and as always, may God bless Texas.