
Live Your Extraordinary Life With Michelle Rios
Hi, I'm Michelle Rios, host of the Live Your Extraordinary Life podcast. This podcast is built on the premise that life is meant to be joyful, but far too often we settle for less. If you've ever thought that something is missing from your life; that you were meant for more; or you simply want to experience more joy in the every day, than this podcast is for you.I'm a wife, mother, business leader and motivational speaker, but at my core, I'm a small town girl from humble beginnings who knew she was meant for more. And through the grace of God, I've beat the odds, overcome adversity, and experienced tremendous success. I am now married to the man of my dreams, have a beautiful family, travel the world, and enjoy an incredible community of friends that spans the globe. Life isn't just good, it's extraordinary! And, it just keeps getting better. Each week, I'll bring you captivating personal stories, transformative life lessons, and juicy conversations on living life to the full. With the hope to inspire you to create a life you love - on your terms - with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Together, we'll explore what it means to live an extraordinary life; the things that hold us back; and the steps we all can take to start living our best lives. So come along for the journey. It's never too late to get started, and the world needs your light.
Live Your Extraordinary Life With Michelle Rios
Exactly What to Say with Nicole Cramer
Discover how a high school math teacher from Ohio transformed her career to become a leading sales coach in our latest episode featuring Nicole Kramer. Nicole's journey is a compelling narrative of embracing unexpected paths and leveraging transferable skills. From teaching teenagers to mastering the art of sales, she has redefined what it means to connect with others through genuine service and relationship building. Her story exemplifies the power of reframing sales as a means to help and support rather than merely transact.
Nicole shares profound insights into overcoming skepticism and the stigma of being "salesy," revealing how she rose to the top of her division and the nation. Celebrating her success, she also opens up about her internal quest for validation and finding fulfillment beyond professional accolades. Through soul searching and the influence of books like "How to Win Friends and Influence People," Nicole reconnected with her passion for people, emphasizing the value of relationships over material success. Her narrative invites us to reconsider the true essence of an extraordinary life, one filled with meaningful connections and service.
In a world often dominated by hustle culture, Nicole champions a shift towards authenticity and nurturing feminine energy in sales. We explore her strategies for empowering women in sales through her mastermind program and learn about the transformative impact of effective communication. Highlighting the significance of slowing down and fostering trust, Nicole's journey not only reshapes our understanding of sales but also inspires us to prioritize genuine engagement. Join us for an enlightening conversation that promises to reshape your perspective on achieving true success and fulfillment.
WAYS TO CONNECT WITH ME:
- New Course Alert - Extraordinary Wealth: Mastering the Art of Selling With Soul: https://michellerios.mykajabi.com/Extraordinary-Wealth-Selling-With-Soul
- Book: https://michelleriosofficial.com/book. (Coming in 2025. Join the Waitlist)
- The Energetic Blueprint for Financial Freedom (Free Audio): https://michellerios.mykajabi.com/extraordinary-wealth-the-energetic-blueprint
- My Daily Wealth Affirmations: https://michellerios.mykajabi.com/opt-in (Free)
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- Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/michelle.c.rios
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- Website: https://michelleriosofficial.com
Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of the Live your Extraordinary Life podcast. I'm your host, michelle Rios, and I am absolutely thrilled to present to you a good friend, someone who I met a few months ago, but we have become fast friends. Her name is Nicole Kramer. She is a keynote speaker. She's a sales expert. She is a keynote speaker, she's a sales expert, she's a certified what, exactly what to say? Coach and she is a bonafide health nut. I've delved into a lot of her background here and she is at it all the time and she's just very impressive. We happened to meet a couple months back in Nashville, which she now has made her home for the time being, and we just hit it off at this conference and we've been talking ever since. So, nicole, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2:Thank you, what a nice introduction and so true, such a fun connection, and I'm really grateful that we met a couple of months ago and now here we are.
Speaker 1:I love your story, nicole, because, as we talk, you know on the show really about. I love your story, nicole, because, as we talk, you know on the show really about the non-linear paths most people lead right and how we get to be where we are today, and, I have to say, one of the things that really struck me about you was how well-spoken you are. You happened to be the speaker the night before we kicked off this conference, and I was on a panel that next day, and it could not have been a better choice, because not only are you incredibly articulate, you have great stories, and what you're talking about is just pertinent to everybody. So what I wanted to be able to let people know, though, is you didn't start off as a sales expert. You didn't start off on a certified exactly what to say sales coach. In fact, you started off as a math teacher, and I love this.
Speaker 1:So let's start there. Let's tell us a little bit about where you started. I know you're from Ohio originally. Give us a little bit of the background and how you went on this very circuitous path to sales coaching.
Speaker 2:The path is never a straight line, is it? So I, yes, was a math teacher for 15 years, taught high school math, and I am also a very competitive person. I played sports my whole life. I played basketball in college and, you know, around the last couple of years that I was teaching, I was starting to get an itch for like something different, something bigger, something that would challenge me. And I had a lot of friends that were in sales and it sounded like a game and you know, we'd be at a happy hour and they'd be like, oh, you know, I'm number one this quarter. I just signed my biggest contract and you know I'm I'm on target to hit president's club and it just sounded exciting and I'd be like I gave him a quiz and I knew I needed something more in my life. That's when I started to recognize it and I had a really good friend who was number one in the nation and his sales company and I was like that sounds cool, I want to get a sales job and I want to become number one. And so I really just kind of said it out loud or maybe in my own head at that time and, as the universe works, it started bringing opportunities to me, and I had a friend that said hey, I think you'd be great at this. Have you ever thought about sales? It was almost like he read my mind because I had said nothing out loud.
Speaker 2:This was like a couple of weeks later, after I had made that declaration in my own mind and I said do you think I could be good in sales? He goes I think you'd be great. He goes would you go on an interview with my boss if I got you the interview? And I was like, yeah, you would do that. And like I'm all excited, right, I put my resume. He's like yeah, just get your resume together, I'll set up the interview. Put together a resume that literally just says teacher, I've never done anything else in my life at this point, right, so I go into the interview and I think the guy who interviewed me probably just did the interview as a favor to his, his buddy that set it up.
Speaker 2:However, when we got to the end of the interview, he goes wow, you know, I got to tell you you really knocked this out of the park. I think he was like really truly surprised, like, okay, I did this interview, I wasn't expecting much, but you know whatever. She did a pretty good job. He said, however, I'm going to have a hard time hiring you over the 89 internal people who want this position, because your resume just says teacher. You've never sold anything, and it was like a shot to the heart. That was the one thing that I was so worried. He was going to say, like you don't have experience. And so I thought about it for a second. I looked at him and I said, well, I've been selling math to high school teenagers for 15 years and nobody wanted to buy that.
Speaker 1:Perfect.
Speaker 2:Perfect and I had no, it just came out of me. I didn't have that plan. It just in that moment came out and he goes that's good, that's really good. And he goes that's good.
Speaker 2:That's really good. You're great on your feet For sure. In that moment I was. And what that did in that moment is it made him recognize oh yeah, I'm going to move you on to the next round. So I was excited because it did exactly that. It moved me on to the next round.
Speaker 2:He goes would you want to ride along with one of my guys? I said sure. He said, would you write up a 30, 60, 90 day business plan? I was like, yeah, so I walk out of there and I call my friend. I'm like, oh my God, I'm going on a ride along.
Speaker 2:By the way, what's a 30, 60, 90 day business plan? Like I have no idea what I just agreed to. He's like, yeah, he just taught me about sales, michelle is, sales is not transactional. So many years ago, when I said that in that moment sitting in that seat, I didn't realize that that truth would be carried forward by me in the understanding that sales is all about relationships. Those high schools yeah, they weren't coming in with credit cards to try to pay me for math, right, it was the relationship that we built and they didn't really want to do the math, to be honest. And so I think so often we get caught up in the transactional nature of maybe what we've been told that sales is or the perception that we have about sales, but really at the heart of it, it's all about relationships and businesses done between people.
Speaker 1:Well, and I would even go a step further and say most people don't really care what you're selling. They're buying your energy. They want what you have. And if there's something about what you're talking about, the way you're talking about it, the way you're showing up in your life that excites them, they're going to want to know more. And I have to believe that competitive spirit in sports that you had you brought to the classroom. It was probably very engaging for the kids to be around you. You were probably a breath of fresh air compared to some of their other teachers and just feeling that was what made you really successful in the classroom. So I can see the translation into the sales arena immediately. You've got that vibe of like she's full of life and you can tell you're going somewhere and you're like I want to go with her. Where's she?
Speaker 2:going To the quadratic equation. That's where we're going. Oh my God, no, but you're right. They all did that transfer of enthusiasm, right? That's really we're going. Oh my God, no, but you're right. It's that transfer of enthusiasm, right? That's really what it is, and I think that there's something to be said for the fact that it's in us and that's what people recognize. But the reason it's so impactful is when they recognize it. That's the law of attraction. It's because it's in them.
Speaker 1:Well, you say something and it's one of the things I talk about as well that I think most people miss, Because when people think of sales, when people get their head in this whole arena, they immediately go ugh. Sales is hard, Sales is pushy. They have a very strong image of what sales means and we talk about sales as service. Could you talk a little bit about what you mean, what it means for you, when you talk about sales as service? Could you talk a little bit about what you mean, what it means for you when you talk about sales as service?
Speaker 2:That was a huge shift for me. So I mean, I'll be honest. So I left my high school teaching job, I went into sales and my first couple of months were really tough, because I had such just limitations in my mind about the transactional nature of sales and I felt salesy and I felt like I was asking people to pay me money for things that they didn't want, which was not. It was what I my perception of sales had been up to that point. I wasn't seeing it as like, wait a minute, these people have a need that they either can't do on their own or don't want to do on their own, or it's a lot easier for them to just delegate it to somebody else. And I'm not selling ice to a polar bear. I'm not selling a TV to a blind man. I'm never going to sell somebody something that they don't need. So if I'm selling somebody something that they do need or want in some capacity again because they don't want to do it themselves, they can't do it themselves it would be easier just to delegate it. Then what I'm actually doing is helping people with a problem that they have and I have the solution, and if that's really all it is, then selling has to be seen as serving. Selling has to be seen as hey, you have something, you have a need in your world and I have a way to meet that need. And if what I do feels right for meeting that need for you, then I'm serving, I'm helping. I'm not selling you something, and you said this earlier. People don't want to be sold, but they do want something in us. Our energy that they feel matches the need that they have. That can get it done.
Speaker 2:So selling a serving just became this thing that in my mind I was like wait a minute, I'm actually just helping people, and this was another big shift for me. Who better to help them than me? And what I mean by that is I care so much about the people that I want to help. And if I'm taking myself out of the game because I feel salesy or I feel like, oh, I don't want to ask them for money or I don't want to do anything, then I'm leaving them high and dry and saying you know what, go off to somebody else.
Speaker 2:Somebody else is going to have to help you with this need because I feel too uncomfortable asking you, having the courage to ask you to pay me money or to give me your business, and what that means is I'm telling you to go to my competitor and I know for a fact my competitor doesn't care as much as I do, so who better to help them? And when I started to wrap my head around that and I realized, oh my God, I can't do that to the people that I care about. They should be working with me. There's nobody that's going to care and hold their hand the way that I do and go above and beyond the way that I do, so they're going to buy from everybody anybody. If they're going to get help, support from anybody with this problem, I'm the best person for them to do that with.
Speaker 1:So, okay, you now entered the sales world. You're in this corporate environment. You're having a tough time in the initial months, but you've pushed through. You end up going on to being number one in your division, correct In your company, in your division, regardless In the country it's amazing In the country, and this went on. For how long.
Speaker 2:I did that for two years in a country. And this went on for how long? I did that for two years in a row because after the first year, you know, there's again the competitor in me. I was like, okay, I did it, I became number one, which was pretty incredible. Yeah, check, check.
Speaker 2:And you know, looking back again, I say that it's like, oh my gosh, that probably it's one of those things that when you look back on your life you're like I honestly probably shouldn't have been able to do that. And all I mean by that is not that I shouldn't have been able to do or I didn't. It's like that was one of those things where I just had the big dream and I didn't know why it shouldn't happen. Michelle, I was like too oblivious to the challenges of it and I like to say I was a little bit like ignorance on fire, and what I mean by that is I had jumped into this role where I was working around a bunch of other veteran salespeople who had never been number one, and they kind of laughed when I walked in and I was like, yeah, I want to be number one in the nation. They were like, that's cute, pollyanna, good luck with that and I was like, oh well, is it hard? They were like, yeah, we've been in sales our whole life and we've never done it.
Speaker 2:I was like, well, where there's a will, there's a way and I'm not saying it was easy street in that year and a half to get to number one. There were challenges, there were tears, there were all kinds of things. Right, I just didn't know why it should be so hard. And so when I got there, it was kind of like, oh my gosh, I did it, I'm number one. And then I was like I'm not going to let anybody call me a one hit wonder, I'm going to do this again. And my company came to me at that time and they were like, hey, you're number one, here's your promotion. We want you to move up to this next role. And I said I don't want the promotion, I'm going to go be number one again. And they were like do you know how hard?
Speaker 2:that is where it was like hold my beer. That's not what I actually said in that moment, but looking back it was like no, I'm going to do it and I did, and what I now know. I'm super proud of everything that I did. And what I know is I was still chasing, I was still looking for that to complete me.
Speaker 1:Yep. And validation and the accolades and yeah Totally.
Speaker 2:And and I didn't quite. I thought I. So here's what happened the first time I became. First year, I became number one. It was like, oh my God, this is so exciting. I became number one and I was on such a momentum that I just kept going and I did it a second year and after the second year I was like, wait a minute, when did the angels start singing? When did the fireworks go off? Like, when does this feel? The way that I was so sure it was going to feel like, and it hasn't happened yet. And I started to feel worse than I ever felt when I didn't have those achievements. I started to get fearful of like wait, if that's not it, if that didn't do the thing that I thought it was going to do, what is ever going to do that for me? And I didn't understand at the time that chasing some external validation is never going to complete us. And that's a really dark place to be, a horribly dark place to be because you get.
Speaker 1:So you get not only further away from the feeling of fulfillment, but you pull yourself away from you. Not only further away from the feeling of fulfillment, but you pull yourself away from you. You get further away from who you are when you chase.
Speaker 2:Well that, and everybody's looking at you like you're living this life, the dream, dream and I mean not to take anything away from it. I had checked every box. I checked every box of all the things that I knew that if I did those things, that I would be happy. And so I was traveling the world. I did have the condo at the beach, I did get the dog that I wanted, I did have money in the bank, I did have the new car. I did have that. I had all the things that I thought were going to make me happy. And so everybody's looking at my life, going oh my God, you did it, you're living the dream. This is amazing. And I'm like why the hell don't I feel that way? And then you start to feel shameful about the fact. Well, why can't I appreciate my life if it looks?
Speaker 1:that good, guilty, shameful, all the things?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, and so I got to this really dark place where I knew I didn't want to be here anymore. Yeah, and that was a really, really scary place to be. I was very clear why people kill themselves. The only thing I knew for sure is that I didn't want to take action on that. There was something inside of me that was like keep going, there's something more for you. And I think some of those darkest moments those come to Jesus moments, those like those come to Jesus moments, those like just really truly soul searching moments do come on the heels of challenges like that. But I also think that those are the pivotal moments that start to point us in a new direction that maybe we wouldn't have considered, we wouldn't have seen, we wouldn't have known. And so, looking back, it's always easy to I shouldn't say it's always easy, but it's a lot easier to be grateful for those moments. But in the moment that you're going through them, it's one of the most challenging things in the world.
Speaker 1:I think it's so hard for people to recognize if you haven't gone through this, that you can get all the things you thought you wanted. You can check all the boxes, you can be winning in society's eyes and feel absolutely miserable, and it's a really hard place to be because you almost have to isolate yourself, because nobody wants to hear how miserable you are when you're supposedly crushing it right, and I think that that's often what happens. What gets us to those darker places is the fact that we end up not talking about how we're feeling, about what's going on, because we really are feeling guilty, that we aren't feeling grateful and we're like what is wrong with me? You know what's going to do it. So what was the turnaround for you, nicole? What happened that moved the needle?
Speaker 2:Well, a conversation with my mom honestly was pretty pivotal for me around that time because she had taken me to Vegas to celebrate. I had just finished my second year of being number one and I was about to turn 40. So it was like a big year, monumental year in a lot of ways. So my mom takes me to Vegas and she's like oh my gosh, this is amazing. You're going to turn 40 in a couple of weeks. You just finished your second year at number one. You're becoming a health. You're becoming a health.
Speaker 2:I was in the middle of becoming a health coach. Like you said, I'm a big health nut and that was one of the things that I promised myself that when I became number one, the first thing I would buy for myself was my health coaching certification. I was very passionate about that. I have a long history of health and wellness in my world. My mom had had cancer. It was really important to me to do that. What's next for you? I said I'm going to quit. She goes what I said I'm going to quit. And she goes why? Why are you going to? What do you mean? What like you're ever? You're on the top of the world. Why would you quit. I said I don't want to be number one. I said because I've done it for two years in a row. If I don't do it again, they'll fire me. And she goes. Did somebody tell you that? I said no, but if I've proven that I can do it and I don't do it again, they're going to know.
Speaker 2:I had all these stories going on in my head, michelle. I mean I literally was try being like number 14? I said cause that sounds terrible. And my ego was so wrapped up in that conversation. And my mom said you know, I think you need to leave your ego out of this and really start looking at you know what's important to you about doing this and why do you do it.
Speaker 2:And that was in November of that year and by January I'd gotten to a point where I couldn't get out of bed. I mean literally, like emotionally, physically, like everything. I couldn't get out. But I had all this money and all you know, all these things that I thought were going to make me happy. And I did some soul searching that January and, you know, encouraged by my mom, like I think you need to really reflect on what's important to you. And that's exactly what I asked myself.
Speaker 2:I was like, wait a minute, what got me out of bed before I was good at this job, like what motivated me before I had the money, before I had the sale, before I had anything, something I was excited about every single day, getting out of bed doing this job. What was it? And it came down to two things building relationships with people and helping them solve their problems. And I thought, well, what if I just made it about that? What if I really got back to basics, because the relationships, it's always been most important to me. And I thought, well, if I just went back to that and didn't make it about being number one, didn't make it about my goal, but truly it was always about the people anyways, it was always about me helping and selling and serving. But I thought, what if, instead of making another goal for me, I make a goal of building better relationships? And how would I do that?
Speaker 2:Well, my first step was let me go and read how to Win Friends and Influence People Again, because that's what you do, right? That's one of the best relationship books on the planet. So I read that. Yeah, classic, classic. I've probably read it, I don't even know how many times now, but that was a reread for me. In that moment I was like, let me go reread that.
Speaker 2:And after I finished that, audible was like hey, if you like that book, you might want to read this other little book called Exactly what to Say. It was $4.99. It was brand new. On Audible, I was like, ah, sounds like a cool title, let me check it out. I listened to it in an hour it's a short, easy read, you know. And then I listened to it again. And then I listened to it again. And then I listened to it again. I was like this is so good. And I was like who is this guy? I need to meet this guy. I need to like read all of his other books. I want to work with this guy. I want to meet this guy. Right, like I was saying all these things back then and it's funny, because, you know, life is just so interesting.
Speaker 2:I look back now and I'm like that version of me wouldn't believe what I was in a really dark place in my life. It wasn't exactly what to say. It wasn't how to win friends and influence people. It was everything together that, step by step, was starting to help me pull myself out of that hole that I was in and I was reading a lot of books around that I read the book You're a Badass Completely reminded me of the badass that I was right. So I started little by little kind of pulling myself out of that and realizing if I really just make it about people, if I really just make it about serving others, then that's the most important thing that I could do and it started to be fulfilling, it started to feel better, it started to feel differently and that's when I really started to realize again selling is serving, selling is about relationships.
Speaker 2:And that year I was not number one but it was one of the most proud years that I had. And I always say it like that because if you would have told me years ago, years before that, that I would be more proud of a year where I wasn't number one than one where I was, I probably wouldn't have believed you. But I learned a lot about myself that year. I learned a lot about sales. That year I learned a lot about relationships and I learned what was really important. And by the end of the year I had still made President's Club, but I was okay with not being number one. I knew that I had done a really good job by myself and by my customers in taking care of them and I started to change the way I felt about again. Like the external validation and checking all the boxes, it was like all of a sudden I realized that's not what life is all about and I started to change the way that I looked at it.
Speaker 1:All right, this is a perfect time to interject this question. It's the question I ask everybody on the show, sometimes at the beginning, sometimes at the end, but this just feels like the perfect moment, and that is what does it mean to you now to live your extraordinary life?
Speaker 2:It's interesting. I just had a birthday yesterday and had dinner with some friends and there were a lot of questions about this, like what does this next year look like for you? What are you calling in? And I think living an extraordinary life is so different for me now than what I would have defined it as a year ago or two years ago or three years ago.
Speaker 2:And you know, I always think back to that quote by Jim Carrey, kind of like with everything we've been talking about here so far.
Speaker 2:It's he said I wish everybody could get rich and famous so that they know it's not the answer, yeah, and so I think for me, living an extraordinary life is it just brings tears to my eyes, it's have I created the time and the space to spend with the people that matter to me and have the experiences that matter? Not collecting achievements and collecting things, but like, am I living my life extraordinarily around the people that matter most to me? And I'm sure there's a lot more to it than just that but like, if I really were to simplify it, it's you know, have I made connections that really matter? Am I impacting others' lives and allowing my life to be impacted by people that I really care about and respect and I think people. It might be weird to say this, but people are one of my highest values. I know a lot of people say loyalty and integrity, but I've always said like people are really what matter to me, so I think that is what really makes life extraordinary.
Speaker 1:It's a beautiful response and I think the reality is, the more time goes on and the more you're on this path where you've had the opportunity to have the contrast right, you've seen what it's like to win, to achieve all the goals and still not come up feeling fulfilled the way you thought you should have To sit around and say, okay, well, what is going to do it? You realize it isn't actually about the getting, it's about the giving. It is totally about you pouring into other people's cups and that is when you fill up. And that's where so many people miss it. And it's hard because we have people who are quote, unquote, winning, succeeding, if you will, and even in this coaching arena, this culture of hustle, hustle, grind, grind. I've had the best sales year ever, I had the best sales month, whatever, and it's just every day they're out there talking about that. It's deceiving, because I would really encourage people, when you hear that, to really question it, because you kind of pull back the corner. If that's really the case, why do you need to talk about it? There's something there about I gotta keep saying it over and over again, to believe it, to make it come true, to continue it, to keep it up or what have you? And it's a fine line having a very similar background, not in teaching but in the corporate space.
Speaker 1:Where is selling? You know large communications programs and PR programs globally. And there was a time where I was selling. You know large communications programs and PR programs globally. And there was a time where I was like you know, I just don't even know if they need what we have, and the reality is they always needed some version of what we were doing because they were all in the communications and marketing arena and so it's a complicated business. And when I stopped worrying about could I sell it and could I make the numbers I had to make for the quarter and I simply showed up with as my friend literally that's business. But still having these relationships are like what do you need from me today? What can we do to support you?
Speaker 1:Now Things shifted. I stopped worrying about the quarterly numbers, which I'm sure my colleagues at the time were freaking right out, because we were all like the more frenzied you seemed, supposedly the better you were doing or the more you were on team go, and I remember thinking the frenzy space that you're operating in is just creating more frenzy and I don't want part of it anymore. I was part of it for a really long time because we all were supposed to collectively share the insanity of, you know, worrying about how we were going to make next quarter, and it never actually made next quarter better. Someone would pull a rabbit out of a hat and we thought it was because we were all being frenzied, and it was never that. It was usually the person who was least frenzied that figured out the fix.
Speaker 1:And so to get to this place where you realize, you know, first of all, I think I know this, but I want to hear a little bit more about. We come from much a pragmatic, science-driven, data-driven world, and I think we're both still very, you know, excited about those things. Definitely, I'd love to know what are the stats, what are the details? And then I have this other part of me that's like and I'm manifesting this as I go I know I need to take action, I know I need momentum, I know I need to be moving the needle a little bit toward what it is I want to create every day, but I'm creating it first in my mind before I'm creating it in the real world. There's this space, and so this duality of pragmatism and practicality and you know we made it in a different way in a different world before, and now we're recreating it in this much more nurturing space.
Speaker 1:I would argue not all of coaching is nurturing, but the one that we're creating is, I think, holding space for a much more different approach to creating wealth, to creating extraordinary, to creating impact, meaning all of these things that we value for the people that we care about and the people we have yet to meet. How do you really pull this duality in and process it? Because I know look, I'll say it out loud I got caught up in the bro culture myself because I thought that was the way to win. I thought I had to be that way in order to win, and I had a lot of masculine energy and I'm sure you do too that I had to tame that. I had to tame that, I had to find a way to say this is actually not bringing out the best of me and I'm going to have to lean into a place that, quite frankly, I've undernourished, which is this whole divine feminine side. How have you reconciled that in your world?
Speaker 2:So many things that you said that are. So, yes, I mean it. I mean even just to think about the fact that the feminine energy, the feminine way it at least in my world and my conditioning, was almost seen as like I don't know if I want to say lazy, but like what? You're not taking action, you're not doing enough, right, in this hustle and grind culture that we've been conditioned to believe is the way, the frenzy, the frenzy, all the things right, like if I'm not answering my email at 10 pm, like I'm not working hard enough and I've got to get back to people right away, and I can't tell you how many vacations I went on to Europe for like two months and I'm still responding to emails even though I'm off, right, and this all of it because you're afraid to get behind. You're afraid, you're afraid, you're afraid Whatever it is, you're afraid. It's all from fear, right? The scramble is always about fear, the scatter is always about fear, the frenzy is about fear of some kind.
Speaker 2:And you know, for decades and decades and decades, sales was done in a certain way. There was the bro culture, the pro mentality of like the hustling grind, always be, I mean what was always be closing of, like the hustling grind always be I mean, what was always be closing? Jordan Belfort, the Wolf of Wall Street, what have we seen for a long time? And sales was predominantly a man's world, and so it was done the way that men do things. And I think, especially over the last decade or so, not only has sales been changing because people want to sell differently, people want to be sold to differently, because they don't actually want to be sold to, they want to buy. And there's been more transparency than ever before in our world because of social media, because of how everything can be seen at any given time. You know, back in like 1986, when you sold something, if you were salesy, nobody knew about it. There wasn't social media for somebody to go blast about it, right. And so I'm not saying it was okay or wasn't okay, but the way that people were selling it was. People just accepted it. That's how it was. And we want connection more than ever. We want to be seen and heard and understood more than ever before, because, as much as we're more visible than we ever have been, people aren't listening, people aren't actually seeing and understanding people. And so you know you mentioned pragmatic and practical, like.
Speaker 2:There's so many things too that when we're creating right, when the idea's in our head, when we know where we're going, but we don't have the physical evidence for it yet, it can feel irresponsible. It can feel that we're not doing the right logical thing. If we're not creating from that hustled frenzy place, and I think that's one of the biggest challenges how do I slow things down, how do I make this interaction truly about the relationship and how do I trust and know that by slowing it down I'm speeding things up, that we're actually going where we're meant to be going, that I'm taking the time to show somebody that I care about them, to become relatable, to build that know like and trust factor, because when that's built, people buy from people and they buy from people that they know like and trust. And when that's intact, we're not selling solutions anymore, we're taking somebody and holding their hand down a path that's helping them get to the other side of what they really want. So we're not selling people things, we're helping them make decisions. And so I think it's challenging sometimes to, especially in a corporate environment. I mean, you and I have talked about this before and we know when there are quotas to make and there's a target on our back.
Speaker 2:It's hard to live in that world of not always hustle and grind and trusting that the things that we're creating are actually manifesting. And especially when you've got a manager and upper management who's like forecasting things and they want to know your numbers and they want to know what you're doing, it's like, no, it's coming, it's happening, right. So I think that's one of the challenges, and I think to me, at least in my world, it comes down to self-trust in a lot of ways. Like, am I trusting that? Am I trusting myself in the decisions that I'm making and not outsourcing my agency to somebody else because I'm so afraid that I don't trust myself?
Speaker 2:And the hustle and grind ends up just being a mask, right? A lot of times people are just hustling and grinding and burning out. They're just on a hamster wheel. They're not actually creating anything, they're not actually doing anything, they're just making it look like a certain perception, but really they're not creating the results that they want to create or that they could create. And so I think that to me, that's what it ends up being the hustle culture ends up being a mask in a lot of ways, cause, like you said something will happen, right, you'll create something. And it's like, ooh, we created it because we were frenzied, not really Right. The, the, the, the frenzy, the scatter is really about fear of something and that self-trust. When we really truly have that connection to ourself and our relationship with ourself is intact, then we have to know and trust and believe that what we're creating, even when we can't, it's like the invisible progress, right, even when we can't, we know that energetically it's moving towards us.
Speaker 1:I love that. All right, I want to delve into exactly what to say for a little bit, because I'm fascinated. So Nicole referenced this earlier. For those of you that are listening and for those that you're watching this on YouTube, I'm going to hold this up. It's a book by Phil Jones. It's called exactly what to say the magic words for influence and impact. It's a very short, very easy read and very impactful read. It blew my socks off. I was like unbelievable.
Speaker 1:The more I looked over some of the phrases and the different things that Phelps really studied and brought to the forefront, the more I realized we inadvertently use some of these phrases in our everyday language and they are what work.
Speaker 1:So why not bring it to this arena of sales to help really bring people's inhibitions down around it and to help people get closer to movement, because I think that's really what, ultimately, we're trying to do, right, get people unstuck, get people to understand that where they are is probably not where they want to hang out. Otherwise they wouldn't be trying to have a conversation with us in the first place. So talk to me a little bit about exactly what to say. And obviously energy plays an enormous part of this, but knowing that there are also these magic phrases out there, if you will, that really help bring people's guard down and create more, I think, bring you closer to the person. Help us understand a little bit about this, the philosophy behind it. You're obviously now certified in it. You're teaching it yourself, so obviously it's something you believe very, very strongly in. Talk to us a little bit more about it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think a lot of times and I believe this when I first started sales we have this idea that, like there are certain phrases or things we can say that like Ooh, if I just say this, right, like it's, when somebody says this, you say this. And that if we just know the perfect thing to say, that somebody will just go okay, here's my business. And although exactly what to say is a series of magic phrases that help you communicate better, they're not magic phrases, because you wave your magic wand and when you say it, somebody just you know, here you go, here's all my money there is because you wave your magic wand and when you say it, somebody just you know here you go, here's all my money, there, there, there we go.
Speaker 2:It's actually about and you said it building a stronger connection, helping to understand people, and what the magic phrases actually are are phrases that speak directly to the subconscious brain, and the reason that's important is you mentioned this a couple of times, michelle what we're really looking to do is help people make decisions. That's it. We're helping them get from where they don't want to be, from where they currently are, to a point of clarity, and sometimes that clarity is yes, I want to move in this direction, and sometimes that clarity is no, I want to move in this direction instead. Yes or no are good things. Maybe is where most people get stuck Right, and when we're having a conversation with people, what we really are as salespeople is we're professional mind maker uppers.
Speaker 2:I love it. That's all we are. We're just helping somebody make up their mind. And when you get into a sales conversation with somebody, or any conversation with somebody, if you left them in the same place that they were when you started that conversation, you haven't served them. You haven't helped served them, you haven't helped. Selling is serving, not just serving because, oh, I got a transaction, so I'm helping that person. Sometimes just getting them to a point of clarity is the highest service that we can offer.
Speaker 2:And when we know how to use our words to speak to their subconscious brain to help them make decisions, then we are serving them in that moment to get to a point of clarity. And the reason that it's important we're talking to the subconscious brain is here's how the subconscious brain works. For those that don't know, right now it's working for you, beating your heart, it's breathing your lungs, it's blinking your eyes. As a matter of fact, you've probably gotten in your car before and you've driven to a very familiar place and when you got there you're like oh, I don't even really remember driving here because it was already programmed in your subconscious brain. So all day long, your subconscious brain is making decisions for you. It does not get stuck in, maybe land? Your subconscious brain has yes and no outputs. So when we have phrases that we can use that speak to someone's subconscious brain, we're able to more efficiently and effectively help them make decisions that they want to make Because, to your point, they're not in that conversation because they don't want to do something about their situation.
Speaker 2:They're there because they do. There's resistance, there's hesitancy, for whatever reason, and a lot of times it goes back to what you and I were talking about earlier the pragmatic, the practical, the logical, the reasonable, the rational, the responsible. People get stuck in those worlds of well, that's not responsible for me to do, but they really want to do it. How do we help them make a decision to do it? And it's not about our agenda. I think that's the other thing too. A lot of times people are like you know, I want to make a sale. Well, how do you know that it's right for that person? How do you know that that's what they want? How do you know? Because this isn't about what you need and it's also not about what they need. It's about what both of you need and if it's the right fit for both, regardless of what you're selling, whether it's a service or a product or whatever it is.
Speaker 2:And so when we understand how to speak the subconscious brain, when we slow things down because that's a big part of the exactly what to say methodology it's slow it down and it actually speeds up the process.
Speaker 2:Because what happens when we slow things down? The other person feels like they're cared about, they feel seen and understood. Because when we slow it down, we come in asking questions, we come in curious, we come in seeking to understand the other person, we come in looking to be interested, not interesting and what happens is they feel that someone's interested in them. They feel that somebody's asking them questions to find out the context of what's really important. The alternative to that is we come in as advice monsters and we try to tell people what to do and we come in with such certainty and that creates friction that actually pushes the other person away. But when we show up and we genuinely care about the other person and we ask those questions and we gain that context, not only are we hearing context, but quite often the other person is hearing them say things out loud that they've never heard themselves say, and here's the beauty of that. Nobody can argue with their own words.
Speaker 2:So when you're looking right when you're looking to be that professional mind maker upper. Here's a really important thing to remember People do things for their reasons, not yours. When you slow things down, you ask questions and you stay curious. You're finding out their reasons. So now, when you make recommendations, you're not making recommendations because you want it, you're making recommendations because of something that they said.
Speaker 2:And when we're going to make a recommendation, this is a magic phrase that I hope everybody writes down as they're listening to this. If we use the phrase because of the fact that you said X, I'm going to recommend Y, I'm going to recommend Y. Not what I think you should do is because of the fact that you said X. Now how do we get the X? We ask questions, we slow it down, we stay curious and now we're making a recommendation based on their reasons. And it's much harder for people to argue with their own words. They can't. But if we don't slow it down and ask better questions, we don't ever gather their words, we don't ever gather that context, and then it feels like we are trying to sell them something instead of helping them make a decision to buy.
Speaker 1:Let's focus in on here a little bit, because I think most people listening in are in some sort of sales, and I've talked about this on the show before. Everybody's selling something, whether you're selling your kids eating vegetables, or you're actually in a professional sales position in corporate or you're a coach or some sort of course creator and you need to sell as a living in that regard. And so what are most people forgetting to do or doing wrong when they're trying to close or they're trying to have a conversation that gets to some sort of movement forward, or is that the problem that they're trying to close? And I think that that's really where the chafing comes in for a lot of us on whether or not. How long does that relationship build need to happen right In order for there to be a potential either yes or no decision.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think the close, when we are actually asking for the business, we should already be so certain that it is the right next step for them and we should have taken enough time, whether it's that one conversation or it was months of conversations right, there's now buyers, there's soon buyers and later buyers, and we cannot enter into conversations and assume that people are going to make decisions on our timeline. We can use magic phrases, we can use connection to expedite the timeline by helping them see the reasons that they might want to make a decision, but we can't walk in and thinking, oh, I'm going to close this deal unless you actually know already that it's the right next step for the person and unless they know it as well. You know, like I had a health coaching client a couple years ago. She was like, oh my gosh.
Speaker 2:I met this man the other day at this event and he's overweight and he really needs my help. I said, whoa, slow down, sister. What do you mean? He really needs your help? Did he say that? And she goes no, but he's like severely overweight. I said what if he's okay with being overweight? What if he's not looking to make a decision? What if going home and binge watching Netflix and eating a bag of Doritos every night is kind of his jam right now, like we can't make decisions for other people, and so I think the thing that most people do in closing is they aren't. They haven't arrived to that point with the other person where both people are pretty clear that that next step is the right next step, and too many people are trying to get married on the first date.
Speaker 1:I love the analogy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, there's so many Dating and sales. Yeah, I mean, there's so many. It's like dating and sales, there's so many similarities between the two, right, and you haven't even had appetizers yet with that person and you're trying to get married. You got to slow it down and truly I've said it a couple of times and I'll keep saying it slowing it down really does speed it up. Because what happens when we slow it down, we're not coming in, going, hey, I want to sell you something, hey, I know what's best for you. Happens when we slow it down, we're not coming in, going, hey, I want to sell you something. Hey, I know what's best for you. That is such a turnoff, right, that is such a turnoff. You're an advice monster and that creates friction.
Speaker 2:But I mean, I had somebody ask me a question the other day. She was like well, do you think that this is right for me? Like, you know an offer that I had that she had inquired about, and I said, well, possibly, but possibly not. What would you be looking to create and what kind of outcome would you be looking for? Like, I don't know. Do I know I can help a lot of people? Yes, but I need them to believe and know that that help is right for them. And I think when we're trying to close, a lot of times we've already made up our mind that we can help that person and we want to help that person, but we haven't helped that person arrive at that realization that they want and need the help.
Speaker 2:And when you're ready to land the plane, if you will close the deal, ask for the business. It's almost like you're at that point where and I know as women we don't necessarily do this as often, but if you've ever asked somebody to marry you, you're probably pretty darn sure of what their answer is going to be. You're not shooting the 50-50 shot, right? It should be the same in a conversation around moving forward, doing business together. You should be pretty darn sure and so should they that that next step is the right one. That's not to say that people won't still have hesitation.
Speaker 2:Objections are always going to be a part of what we do, because objections are just a question. Objections are actually buying signals, because if somebody really didn't want the thing, they would say that it's really not the right fit and they don't want the thing. So it's not to say that there won't sometimes still be hesitation or concerns, but you should be pretty clear, and so should they, that that next step that you're asking them to make is the right one. And I think quite often we rush in too quickly for the close, and you know, a lot of times it's because there's a quota, there's a target on your back, there's you want to make a certain revenue goal for your month, but that's all about you, right? And I think when we're trying to make sales based on what we want and need, we've lost our way with what this is really about.
Speaker 1:So true, and I think you know you say this over and over again and I think it's worth emphasizing the person who's really it's not the greatest term, but in control of the conversation is the one asking the questions, and I think that that is one way to think about having that. Ongoing dialogue isn't about you talking. That's when you're in that advice monster mode and then you're not actively listening and you're not curious. So when you are asking those questions, probably right up into the end, it's probably more of a question of do you think you're ready to move forward now? Do you have the information you need to make a decision? Are there more questions that haven't been answered that we need to go over? That's actually putting it back in their court to let them signal you if they're ready to move forward, not you going. I've given you my spiel. Are you going to buy or not?
Speaker 2:Right, right, yeah, and I mean just like it's. It's a gentle ask of like hey, do you feel like you want to stay where you are for a little bit longer, or do you see getting support with this as being the right next step for you? Or help me understand what you feel. The next best steps are from here, right, when we put it in here and we're asking questions, it's like you know, I famously I say famously, because I've taught so many clients this and they're like, oh my God, that's so good Many, many years ago. And I genuinely, when I'm in conversations and I hope everybody from this conversation between you and I takes away the idea of being more curious in every area of your life I genuinely will sit there and listen to people from a place of curiosity.
Speaker 2:And I had this woman on a sales call and she was really interested and she said I really just feel like I need some time to think about it. I said great, how long do you feel like you want to think about it? And she said I think a week would be good. I said no problem. I said what can I answer for you so that, as you're thinking about it, you have all the information that you need. And she said I know I want to do this. I just I feel like I just need to marinate on it and make sure that. I said that's, that's fine. I'm never, I don't want to.
Speaker 2:If I know somebody is really, really ready, like I'll say the things that need want to do that you just want to give yourself permission for, or are there some legit things that you want to look into? Right? And she said no, I just want a week to think about it and I already know that my husband will be okay with it. I just want to talk it over with him. You know, whatever I said, no problem. I said can I ask you a question? She said sure. I said a lot of times when somebody has taken some time to think about it, there's some hesitations that come up and there's a good chance that they may make a different decision. When we follow up next week, there's going to be two versions of you, maybe a version of you that wants to do it and a version of you that doesn't, which?
Speaker 1:one. Would you like me to support? Support? I love that, ooh.
Speaker 2:Like I'll give you a week. You need a week to think about it. Go think about it, because the last thing I want is somebody to say no when they mean yes or yes when they mean no, and if, at the end of the day, you're like I really need to think about this. Okay, and I mean you know sales.
Speaker 2:I know sales. Like I'm a sales coach, I can tell people there's ways to create urgency, there's ways to create reasons for people to make a decision. You know when they really want to make it. There's ways that we can support them in doing that. But really, if somebody's like no, I really just want to think about it. Okay, there's probably two versions of you that are going to show up. There's a version of you that's going to want to and a version of you that's maybe going to be really hesitant. And she said oh my God, that question actually is so good and it scares me. I said why does it scare you? And she goes? Because I don't want to tell you to support the part of me that doesn't want to do it. I want you to help me figure out how to do this. I said okay, so a week from now, when we follow up, I have your permission to show up in support of the version of you that wants to do this. She goes, yeah, and I said okay, like, and when we like, you said the person in control of the conversation is the person asking the question. So can we just get more curious? Can we just ask better questions? You know, or like.
Speaker 2:I've been in a conversation with people before and they're really hesitant. They're like oh, I know, I really want to do this. I'm like listen, I'm hearing right now there's some hesitation. I'm also hearing there's a part of you that wants to do this. What's keeping you in this conversation, instead of just saying no? And they're like well, because I don't want to wait any longer, because I know I really want to do this, because I know I need this support. Oh now, who's telling me all the reasons why they want to do this? I'm not trying to convince you, but I'm going to ask the questions that allow you to convince yourself.
Speaker 1:I love that. You put them in the driver's seat, you let them make the decision. You're not forcing anything on them, you're allowing them to come to that conclusion, and then they're going to own the process as well, much more and I think they'll get more out of the actual coaching. So that's fantastic, nicole. As always, it's been a phenomenal conversation. I think you and I could go on forever, so that just means you'll have to come on, we'll have to do a part two, but before we go, I'm really curious about you and 2025. As we close out, 2024, what's on the horizon for you?
Speaker 2:Like the continuation of my birthday conversation last night.
Speaker 2:I love it. You know I set some pretty specific goals in 2024 around my speaking career, and it's exciting now to get to the end of 2024 and go, oh my gosh, like I checked those boxes. I did that and I feel like I'm on a very different trajectory and momentum in that way, and so speaking is going to be an even more exciting thing for me in this coming year because I've built that momentum. And the other thing that I'm really excited about is I've reconnected again with what my purpose is all about, with supporting and serving women in the sales capacity, and I have created a new program that I'm very, very excited about a mastermind for women who are looking to do exactly what we've shared in this conversation sell in a way that feels really good, that's really effective, that they can show up and really be of service to the people that they're looking to help. And it's exciting to think that I love how much possibility there is for women in the world today, and that's something that I'm really looking forward to in 2025.
Speaker 1:Well, I'm so excited. So a couple of things. How can people find you? And Well, I'm so excited, so a couple of things. How can people find you and tell us a little bit about what those programs look like? We're going to make sure we have the links to those as well in the show notes.
Speaker 2:So you can find me on Instagram. That's where I'm the most active. I am at the Nicole Kramer, and if something stood out to you today from our conversation, I'd love to hear from you and DM If any of the questions that we were talking about resonated with you. I do have a list of 23 questions that sell would be happy to share that with you. So reach out to me on Instagram at the Nicole Kramer, and just tell me you want the list of questions and I'll be happy to send it to you, and there are a couple of programs coming up this year that are pretty exciting for people who are looking to get better at not just selling but elevating their ability to connect with people and communicate in a way that helps people make decisions.
Speaker 1:And again, we'll include the notes, and I think this is so important because we've talked about this before.
Speaker 1:I come from a public relations and marketing standpoint, so a lot of people are like you were doing sales, I said for more than 25 years.
Speaker 1:I mean, that's what I was doing, whether or not I was selling somebody on a project or we were doing a program. Ultimately, at the end of the day, you're trying to influence people and hopefully give them something they need and that's going to help them move forward in their journey, whatever that looks like, whether it's professional or personal. And so I think, the more that we all are equipped with asking good questions, being curious, becoming active listeners this is going to translate well beyond the professional arena. It works well also. Personally, I found that just even connecting with my 17-year-old as we embark on the whole college about ready to launch him into the college arena and thinking about what kind of college he wants to be at, what kind of experience he wants to to have in the year moving forward it's incredibly helpful to just get curious and ask those questions and get to know people better and they'll open up and they trust you more. And what is, at the end of the day, the no like and trust factor is helpful anywhere you are walking, personally or professionally.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm glad you said that too, because there's one last quick story that I'll share. The first time I ran one of these workshops on exactly what to say was like three or four years ago, I think, and one of my clients came to me and she said oh my gosh, nicole, I just made a $5,000 sale. I said, oh my gosh, that's amazing, carrie, congratulations. She said no, but that's not the most important thing. You saved my marriage. I said tell me more. She said I'm using everything you taught me about this way to communicate and stay curious and ask better questions.
Speaker 2:My husband and I have had conversations we've never had Like you've saved my marriage. I said could you put that in a video for me? She said I'll shout it from the mountaintops Like it's changed my life. And so to your point, michelle. This isn't just about making more sales. This isn't just about business. This is really about connection at the highest level and truly seeking to connect with the people that we care about and understand them and communicate higher, and so that you know we feel better and we're able to connect with the people that really mean the most to us.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, Nicole. Thank you again for coming on the show. It's always a pleasure to spend time with you. It's always very enlightening and engaging and I feel like we are soul sisters through and through. So I hope that you'll come back again.
Speaker 2:I absolutely will. Thank you so much for having me. It's always a delight to have a conversation with you, and I'm glad we got to do this today.
Speaker 1:All right, everyone. Until next time, go and live your extraordinary life.