Smart Moves For A Tough Job Market

Hiring shouldn’t feel like a maze you have to sprint through. We slow it down and map a clear route: tailor your CV to value, prepare for interviews with repeatable frameworks, and make smart choices about disclosure, culture fit, and negotiation—especially if you’re neurodivergent and juggling burnout risk, memory load, or short tenures.

Andrew Arkley, founder of Purple CV, brings 12 years of hands‑on expertise in CV writing, interview coaching, and ATS‑friendly formatting. We dig into when a functional CV beats a chronological one, how to turn frequent job changes into a story of adaptability, and why specifics sell: the exact tools, frameworks, and metrics that mirror the job spec. Clean structure wins; generic phrases don’t. You’ll hear how to use AI as a helper without losing your voice, and how modern ATS actually reads applications. Then we shift to live‑fire tactics: learn the interview format before you arrive, roleplay the common prompts, and answer with STAR to stay concise and confident.

Researcher and coach Esther Bangoura shares fresh insights from a UK survey on neurodivergence and money: most respondents believe they could earn more with better clarity, feedback, and flexibility. We connect those findings to everyday decisions—when to disclose, how to negotiate for the top of a salary band by tying asks to business outcomes, and what red flags to spot in vague job descriptions. We round it out with a sustainable job search strategy: define criteria, track outcomes, adjust instead of “spray and pray,” keep a living log of wins, and align LinkedIn with your narrative without oversharing.

If you’re ready to stop guessing and start landing interviews that fit, this conversation gives you the tools: targeted keywords, measurable achievements, format intel, culture research, and calm, repeatable interview prep. Subscribe, share with a friend who’s job hunting, and leave a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify to help more people find these strategies.

To use Purple CV services 

https://purplecv.co.uk/cv-writing?wpam_id=621

Transcript

Host Welcome And Support Requests

SPEAKER_00 0:00

One of the biggest tips is try to understand the format of the interview before you even turn up. So many people, you know, um will guess. They'll walk into an interview and they'll guess how the interview goes. They'll guess whether there's two people, three people, whether it's a panel interview, an assessment, whatever the case may be. So if you're able to understand that before you even walk into the interview, then you've got a massive advantage. So try and understand, try and understand from if it's a recruiter, that's a fantastic opportunity because obviously it's in the recruiter's best interest to employ you, right? So if you're working with a recruiter, ask the recruiter questions about the type of interview. How many people are gonna be in the interview? You know, do they understand any questions that were asked from previous interviews?

SPEAKER_01 0:49

You're gonna have lots of other jobs, and I always say to them, whatever's on the job description, just be 80%, 50% okay with it, because the other 50% you're not gonna know till you get the role. So how we catfish the catfish us, basically.

SPEAKER_03 1:05

That's all that's all I'll say.

SPEAKER_01 1:09

Exactly. So my my question to you Andrew is how can we filter bad job descriptions that are fake, generic, and what are the red flags that we should look out for? Because, like you said, it's a lot of work to apply for jobs, prepare for the interviews, it's time consuming, energy draining. So, how can we get away from those bad actors within the job market?

Topic Setup: Neurodivergent Careers

Andrew’s Background And Expertise

SPEAKER_02 1:31

I think it's interesting with AI because I I know that obviously candidates are using it, but also recruiters are using it to save out the candidates as well. So it's almost that AI to do my CV, but I've used AI to sift out the CV to ready, ready, ready, ready, and then we'll get to the website. We appreciate all of our audience members for taking some time out of their day to create another episode. I look forward to providing you all with some value to after today. My name is Sarah, and I'll be the host for this podcast. This podcast will be available on all platforms where you can find podcasts, including Spotify, Amazon, Apple Podcasts, and the OSO on YouTube. Now, before we dive in, I have a small favor to ask. Creating this podcast takes a lot of time and energy, and every bit of support helps me keep it going and growing. If you're enjoying the show, five-star rate, comment on Apple Podcasts or Spotify can make a significant difference in helping new listeners discover us. Your support is invaluable in our growth journey. And if you're also watching on YouTube, hit the subscribe button and tap the bell so you never miss an episode. You can even buy me a coffee through Buy Me a Coffee page. It's a simple way to support the show directly and helps cover production costs. Together, we can build an incredible community for ambitious professionals like you. Thank you for your support. It means more than you know. Now, let's get started. Welcome to the Divine Neckma podcast. Today we're going to be talking about something so many neurodivergent professionals struggle with writing a strong CV, navigating interviews, and building confidence in a very, I would say, tough job market that we have right now. Um, we'll ask we'll be asking Andrew a bit about that, but I feel like when just talking to people, just generally they're finding it quite challenging to find jobs because I feel like there's a lot more required than just a CV now. And we'll be anchoring this conversation in the fresh research that um Esther conducted last year, as well as getting practical career advice from yourself, Andrew, um, who specializes in CVs and interview coaches. So let's get into it. So, um, first of all, Andrew, do you mind introducing yourself, telling us a little bit about what you do, what your company is, um, and how you can help people put potentially right in this current mock climate that we're having where people are really struggling to find roles or I guess stand out a lot more.

Standing Out: Achievements And Value

SPEAKER_00 4:50

Yeah, absolutely. So, yeah, thank you very much for having me today, Sarah. So I'm Andrew Arkley, so I'm the founder and director of Purple C V. Uh so we're a UK-based CV writing company. So C V writing is our bread and butter, but we've evolved over the years to do uh things like Sarah said there, interview coaching, but we also do career coaching, LinkedIn optimization as well. Uh, we've been around for just over 12 years, and we have an operation in the UK, which is uh our main operation, but we also operate in the Middle East, in Dubai, um, the USA, and also Australia as well. So we have a large team of writers and coaches up and down the country uh who are there to support individuals present their maximum value, present their best value, which is what a CV and doing an effective interview is all about. Uh, a little bit about myself. So my background is very much HR. Also, I have a passion for writing. Uh, so I put two and two together around 12 years ago and I came up with Purple C V. Um, in addition, I'm a business mentor for the King's Trust. Uh, I'm also a director for a large training company called eCareers, uh, which provides professional qualifications to individuals as well. So I like to think that I have a passion, uh, as can be seen by the businesses that I'm involved in, um, in supporting people with their careers. Um, so this is uh a big part of my mission is to help individuals. So um I also do a lot of pro bono work. So um I uh we're a big sponsor for the Lord Sainsbury Foundation, uh, which is a foundation that supports uh young uh young engineers um from various universities in the UK. So we sponsor their annual events, we also support a number of charities, homeless charities, so helping uh homeless individuals get off the streets, and a big part of that is obviously getting a job. Um, so we support a number of charities as well. Uh, and we've done lots of stuff over the years, um you know, lots of talks and everything else. Uh so no, delighted to be here today. And yeah, in answer to your question, Sarah, about what people can do to um, I guess, stand out in the crowd. Um, so yeah, the the economy is not in dire straits right now. It's not like we're in a recession and unemployment rates are high, but what we are hearing is that, like Sarah said, it is really difficult. Um, it's difficult to get a job nowadays, it's difficult uh to get an interview. Um, so when it comes to presenting your best value over uh a CV or during an interview, um there's a few things that are going to make you stand out. Um, one of which is making sure we demonstrate our value and demonstrate our achievements that we've uh that we've uh I guess amassed over our career. So one of the things that we do is help people structure their answers, structure their content on how to present that value uh, you know, either in person or or over the CV. And I'm sure we'll talk more about that on today's uh podcast. So hopefully I give a little bit of a background about myself, Sarah. And um, yeah, once again, really happy to be here today.

SPEAKER_02 8:01

Thanks, Andrew. And Esther, she's also a guest. She also has her own podcast as well, the Esther Bangora Podcast. And Esther recently did some research around neurodiversity and neurodivergent people within the workplace. Um, and would you mind kind of introducing yourself, Esther, and talking through you know, the research you put together and also about what you do and where you are at the moment.

SPEAKER_01 8:26

Yeah, sure. Um Andrew, where have you been all my life? Um, with all the support with CV and interviews. So I'm Esther Bangoura. I am a neurodivergent woman diagnosed with dyslexia, dyspraxia. I was diagnosed initially at 35 and then diagnosed with ADHD at the age of 40. Um, and I have always been in corporate world, I've been like working since the age of 18. I've also had businesses on the side. And um recently I launched the Neodivergent and Money UK research survey, and it was really around me asking myself questions after receiving my ADHD diagnosis, asking myself, you know, does money feel hard, you know, with everybody? But is a neodivergent? Is it just me? And that those questions led to me launching the survey. And over 368 people today have completed that survey and shared their thoughts, their challenges, you know, their strengths, and the type of support that they're looking for around how they manage their finances as a neurodivergent. Um, and you know, I carried a lot of shame around money, a lot of guilt, um, not being able to manage it the way everyone else does. It's always, it was always a difficult pain point for me. Um, and that's even whilst I was earning, you know, a good salary. People think finances is only hard when you don't have money, but it's even hard when you do have money to manage it. You have more responsibilities the more you earn. And so I am a new divergent and money coach. So my mission is really to help um adults understand their brain in relation to money and to make managing money more calmer, more easier, and more in tune with how their brain works. Um, so yeah, that's that's it for me.

Short Tenures And CV Strategy

SPEAKER_02 10:27

Thank you, Esther. Lovely introductions from both of you. So I want to start with you, Andrew. And one of the questions that I want to kind of bring forward because this is this is a neurodiversity podcast, um, a lot of neurodivergent people tend to have a pattern with frequent job changes or uh I guess very short tenures in their roles. And when obviously maybe you've gone into a job for a bit and then you don't know whether to put that on your CV or not, yeah. What is the best way to kind of present that in a very positive way on the CV? Um without like you're someone who's you know unstable.

SPEAKER_00 11:11

Yeah, that's that's a really good question. And I think um one thing that many people need to understand with CDs is that there's no right and there's no wrong answer with many, many things. Uh, and one of those things is what jobs are to include, or you know, how long the gap should be. It all depends on the individual's experience, their history, their credentials, um, their their approach to applying to that role. So, but there there are some best practice you know approaches or or tips uh we have for individuals who have moved in their career often. Because as you may be aware, there is a myth out there, um, rightly or wrongly, that employers are put off by people who who drop hop. Um now the good news is that since COVID um it's become more acceptable to see people in a role for a year, two years, and then move on. Um, you know, before COVID, it's probably a little bit old school. You know, employers want to see you in the in a job for five, ten years, that's gonna demonstrate loyalty. But if anything, uh it's it's flipped around now. You know, employers want to see that you've moved on to some degree because it shows that you're versatile, it shows that you're gonna have a broad skill set. Um, so I just want to kind of give some some context on that. But let's say, for example, that an individual has job topped um or gone from job to job uh often. So let's say they've got you know three or four jobs in the last year or even two years. So one approach uh that we have um is looking at the type of CV that we should put together. So there are actually different types of CV, um, notably a functional CV or a chronological one. So a functional one would be for someone who's changing careers or wants to focus on their skills rather than their experience. So on the CV, we would dominate the first page with uh, you know, talking about their skills, their transferable skills, and also their skills that they have in particular for that role. And what that does for the reader, a little bit like Google, you know, page one is the most important, right? So by us dominating page one of the CV on your skills, uh, it means that you're gonna sell yourself before the individual understands that you've had three or four jobs over a year or two. Um the other way that you know there are some other small tips as well. So let's say, for instance, uh, you know, you had a job that ended in January 2024, um, and you didn't get your next job, or uh you didn't get your next job till 2025. Rather than put in the month, we can just put the year. So it shows I guess I'm talking about career gaps now rather than from job to job. But that's another tip for uh career gaps. But in terms of moving from jobs to jobs, it's about looking at the type of CV. So making sure we understand we're we're picking the right CV to make sure that if we feel there's too many jobs, that we're gonna mainly focus on our key skills. The other one is choosing whether to even include um certain jobs. Um, because obviously, if you're going for one particular job and a job that you had last year or the year before is just not relevant to that job that you're going for now, then even consider whether you should include the job.

SPEAKER_02 14:43

I like the fact you mentioned that, you know. I really like the fact you mentioned that because it makes me think about um years ago when I had sort of CV coaching, someone told me putting every single job you have, like I worked at McDonald's, I worked at Next, and it's like it's not that's not relevant for where I am right now. So that's that's a very good um point that you've made, Andrew.

LinkedIn Alignment And Career Gaps

SPEAKER_00 15:04

Exactly, and and it kind of goes back to what I said though, with regards to there's no right or wrong answer, right? Because if you leave out a job, then that might cause a gap in your CV. Um, and that gap may work against you. So we always need to balance um, you know, what is relevant, and you know, if it's not relevant, do we keep it out, keep it in, whatever the case may be. So it is a bit of a minefield, but it's about putting yourself in the eyes of the recruiter, the eyes of the company that is looking for a role, uh, and making sure that your CV is extremely relevant. Um, putting anything that's irrelevant in your CV is a big no-no. What's the point in having irrelevant information in your CV? We should be replacing that uh with relevant information to that job, um, be it through achievements um or particular skills that you have for it.

SPEAKER_02 15:56

And as the same go for LinkedIn as well, because as I know that also a lot of employers are cross looking at your LinkedIn as well as looking at your CV as well. Um, how does that play very like play?

SPEAKER_00 16:09

So, yeah, typically the golden rule is to make sure that your LinkedIn and your CV do match. Um, if they don't match, it should still be very obvious that the CV relates to that profile. Um, so your LinkedIn should be probably a little bit more closed in terms of your intentions because obviously on LinkedIn it's a public profile, so we don't want to be making you know our current employer aware that we're looking for jobs. So we want to make sure that our LinkedIn is uh kind of um uh kind of flat when it comes to you know looking for for your next role. But yeah, in answer to your question, they they should match your CV and LinkedIn should match, generally speaking.

SPEAKER_02 16:51

No, that's really good. I know you mentioned about long gaps as well and in employment, but sometimes people take long gaps because maybe they've they've been burnt out from work. And burnout is quite particular for me currently because I'm building um my business, Cognify Me, um, which is um an app which supports people with burnout. Um and sometimes people tend to leave their jobs because of burnout, because the workload was a lot. Um they've had to leave because maybe they've gone off to have a baby, or they have to go after an older old elderly relative, or maybe there's some misalignment with the roles and they've had to take time out. I mean, how can you explain to an employer that now I've had this part of my life, you know, uh as a gap, I'm ready to come back into the world of employment.

SPEAKER_00 17:45

Yeah, absolutely. So, first of all, we going back to what I said there a second ago about relevance, it I in an ideal scenario, if we had the opportunity not to explain a gap, then that would be the first option. So if you if you have a career gap or career break on your CV, um then you know if you're able to not include that that career gap, then go for it. And and that goes back to the tips that I just said a second ago. So again, if you ended your role, let's say in January 2024, and you started your new job in September 24, that's a nine-month gap, right? Um, but on the CV, we don't need to put the month. We can literally put, we ended our role in 2024 and we started our role in 2024. It's very, very ambiguous. So to the employer and to the reader, you know, to them, they'll subconsciously even think that you didn't have a gap. But let's say you did have a significant gap. Let's say 2024 was your last role, or let's say 2023 was your last role, sorry.

SPEAKER_03 18:49

Yes.

Burnout, Caregiving, And Explaining Breaks

SPEAKER_00 18:50

And let's say 2024 or 2025 was your new role. So let's say you said you you know took a year out, you know, first you don't have to overshare. You're not there to justify uh anything to do with your mental health or or whatever or whatever reason uh you took that gap. But first option is is trying to explain that gap in a productive way. So if over the course of that period you did anything productive through your you know uh professional development, or maybe you did some courses, even if it's on something like Coursera or YouTube, if it's something which was structured um and productive towards your development, then just go for that and explain that your gap uh was filled with professional development and it possibly was a career break, uh a planned career break. Because again, this is this is probably another tip for you is if you if you're going to explain a career break or put a career break on your C V, explain that it was planned. You know, it may be a white lie, but at the end of the day, it's not a massive one. Um, but explain that it was a break uh in order to recover or a professional. Reset, but if you're able to back that up with any sort of professional development, then that is going to be a big plus for you as well. But going back to my original point, you know, if you if you don't have to include the break or the gap on your CV, then go for that. And that also, I guess, feeds into what we talked about as well is picking the right CV. Because if we're able to sell our skills, sell our achievements, sell our transferable skills, then a career gap in your CV won't matter. You know, the the the reader's going to be so impressed by your transferable skills and your demonstration of them, you know, a six-month, three-month gap uh is going to go a lot you know further down their list of priorities. But and that's why how we lay out the CV is so important.

SPEAKER_02 20:48

So if you put a gap, for example, you had a baby or you you were having child uh caregiving for an elderly parent or uh someone that was sick, is that we is that gonna is that something that you'll be seen as penalizing you because okay, I had a loved one that was really ill and I had to take two years out of my career because they were they were.

SPEAKER_00 21:11

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, at the end of the day, yeah, you know, the way that I like to think about it is if we're applying to a job where we feel that job is going to penalize you for personal circumstances, then we probably have to ask ourselves, is that a job I even want to apply for? You know, obviously honesty is the best is the best course of action. So if we're if you know if you're going for a role and you you feel it it needs explanation, then go for it. Um, and the end of the day, you know, as hard as it, it's a bit of an oxymoron, isn't it? But if you are penalised for taking six months out to care for someone who is seriously ill that was close to you, and you're penalized for that, then if anything, see that as a blessing that that job has not come back to you. Because you know, if at some point in the future, God forbid, you need to take a break again or have a sick day, whatever. If you're penalized for something which is pretty serious, then yeah, it's probably not uh the type of company we want to go for anyway. So in answer to your question, are you penalized? Really depends on the on the employer, right? You know, some employers uh uh are going to brush it off and say, well, look, this is life, and some unfortunately will turn around and say, you know, I don't want to employ a person who's just had a career break for one, two, three years. Um, so when applying for a role, you know, do look at the mission statement, do look at the values of that company and understand that the values of that company are real and understand that they are authentic. Because if they are, you know, putting a career gap to care for a loved one should not be an issue at all.

Using AI Without Sounding Generic

SPEAKER_02 22:52

No, that's really good to say that because sometimes when you're an NDR, particularly and you're worried about taking time off work or how that might be perceived, it's always important to know that you're going to the employer that it's it's the right employer where it it's in alignment with the way you work and values the skills that you offer and not and not pedalize you for your personal circumstances. Yeah. No, I I've really liked that. There's another thing that I wanted to kind of touch on actually, and it was around AI. So obviously, we we're in the age of AI, you know, chat GTP, uh, what's the other one? Um there's uh there's there's so many other like um uh AI um applications that you can use. Um, but the the the biggest one we know is chat GTP and people putting their CVs up there and say, This is my CV. Um, you know, I don't know how to write a CV. They think put it through Chat GTP. Uh one of the things that a lot of people are saying is that everyone's CV looks generic, it looks the same. There's nothing that's really standing out. So if I have nothing against AI, and I think AI can help us in many, many ways, but at the same time, how can we make our particular CV stand out more rather than relying on functionality?

SPEAKER_00 24:12

Well, kind of the good yeah, the the the good thing about AI and so many people using it is it's now making it easier for people to stand out. Um, because you know, you you you see it a lot on LinkedIn, you know, recruiters are saying, you know, many applications just literally a verbatim uh word for word the same because people are using AI. So, you know, the the good news is for those that put the effort and energy into um putting a truly personal CV together, it's gonna make you stand out more in this day and age. Um but for those that are using AI, AI is obviously a good, you know, uh a good starter in terms of putting content together. Um, but context um and narrative of your CV cannot be produced by by AI. And narrative and context uh are only really understood with soliciting the right information about your career. And that's where we come in. We we work with our customers to make sure we understand their career, understand their experience, and put the right narrative and correct narrative and personal narrative together on your CV. Um so yeah, uh just going back to the point there of using AI, just be very cautious in terms of uh if you're literally going to copy and paste what AI produces, um, then you're gonna come across as pretty generic. And if anything, even if it is a sniff of being generic, it's a massive turn-off for the recruiter because a recruiter wants to see passion and they want to see a genuine interest in the role. And especially when hundreds of people are applying for for the same job nowadays. Uh, if there's any whiff of of it being generic, you're going to be put in the no pile very quickly.

SPEAKER_02 26:01

I think it's interesting with AI because I I know that obviously candidates are using it, but also recruiters are using it to sieve out the candidates as well. So it's almost that I've got AI to do my CV, but I'm using AI to sift out the CVs.

SPEAKER_00 26:16

So you know it's yeah, there's yeah, there's many people that are saying, Well, you know, you you're telling us not to use AI, but the recruiters are using AI to sift out the CVs. I guess but there are two very different parts of the process. So you know, there are ATS systems now, so um systems that are using AI uh to intuitively understand um a CV. Um, and yeah, I don't know if we'll talk about that later, but you know, ATS systems are a big part and a big consideration when putting a CV together nowadays.

Interview Prep: Format, Roleplay, STAR

SPEAKER_02 26:49

Yeah, we'll talk about that later, um, the ATS system, because um, I do have questions around that. But hooray, you've got a job, you know, you've got a job interview, you got called. So, how would one prepare for that very well, particularly if you've got um a neurodivergent condition, and maybe sometimes coming across that interview doesn't actually um come across the world because maybe you haven't got the best memory or you can't actually remember everything that you've done in your role, but you've done the role well. Um, and even if you're not neurodivergent, sometimes interviews can make you very nervous. You can feel like, oh, what have I messed up or say the wrong thing or slip up how you know what what kind of um techniques or methods can people use once they've been called for that long-awaited interview for that role that they've been applying for?

SPEAKER_00 27:41

Yeah, well, one of the one of the the biggest tips is try to understand the format of the interview before you even turn up. So many people you know um will guess, they'll walk into an interview and they'll guess how the interview goes. They'll guess whether there's two people, three people, whether it's a panel interview, an assessment, whatever the case may be. Um, so if you're able to understand that before you even walk into the interview, then you've got a massive advantage. So try and understand, try and understand from if it's a recruiter, that's a fantastic opportunity because obviously it's in the recruiter's best interest to employ you, right? So if you're working with a recruiter, ask the recruiter questions about the type of interview. How many people are gonna be in in the interview? You know, do they understand any questions that were asked from previous interviews? Um, what is it they liked or disliked about other candidates? Try and get as much information about the format and about the type of questions that are going to be asked before you even walk into the interview, and that's gonna give you a huge advantage because then you can go away and prepare. Um, but failing that, or even if you do get that, you know, the biggest tips are is uh in preparation is role-playing. So probably 40 to 50, maybe 60% of questions that are asked in an interview are asked in every interview. Um, they'll they might be a slight variation, but I can bet your bottom dollar that most interviews are going to ask, tell me about yourself, you know, tell me about your career, where do you want to be in five years, what's your strengths and weaknesses? These are all questions that we probably all heard before in interviews. And they're very common and they make up a big portion of your interview. So go away, look at those common questions and prepare for them and roleplay. Um so roleplay with your family, roleplay with your friends, roleplay in front of a mirror if there's no one around, uh, and roleplay your answers to those common questions. Because if you can get those common answers, sorry, common questions and your answers down, get them down packed, um, then you know, pretty much half of your interview, you've nailed it because uh they're common interview questions, right? So if you nail that 50%, if the other 50% doesn't go well, then at least you've got 50% that did go well to influence the other 50%. So um, yeah, role-playing is is a big tip, and you know, neurodivergent or not, um, that this is a massive tip for everyone. So the other tip is is is methodical answers. So looking at ways in which we can answer questions and answer questions methodically. So there's many ways that we can do that. We've got the star method and also the car method. So star is situation task action result. So when you're asked a question, many questions nowadays are competency-based. Um, and they'll ask you for particular examples in your career. So let's say for customer service, one of the questions might be tell me about a time that you handled a difficult customer. Um, so that they're asking about a particular example in your career, and many people will waffle, and they'll waffle because they're not going through the different steps in their heads as to how to answer that question. So, star will look at the situation. So, we explain the context, the task, the action, the result. And by following those different steps in your answer, you're going to be methodical, you're going to show that you're concise, you're going to show that you're uh professional because you're approaching uh a problem in a very stepped way. Um, so yeah, uh answering questions in a methodical way through techniques such as the star method or car method is is probably my my next biggest tip.

Survey Insights On Pay And Support

SPEAKER_02 31:33

No, I I I know that that's one of the challenging um parts of the interview, trying to remember all your examples because you might be that role for like a year and thinking about one of the things that I think I really struggled with when it came to interviews that what if the example that I've memorized this doesn't come up? Do I remember all of my examples? Like um, particularly when it's roles where you need to show some kind of technical understanding of the role and the worker wants to know, or the the potential employer wants to know if you have that skill set and you've dealt with those kind of things where, for example, like talking about how we've used a certain piece of technology um and how you use that to you know manage a team or manage um um issues within the workplace and try and remember I've had so many different things like that, but how will I pick the right one and one that will stand out as well? So it's really it's really it's really helpful to know that and the tips that you're given given us on this because bold tips are really good. So thank you. I'm gonna I'm gonna move over and slightly switch um gears a little bit and go to Esther. So I know Esther you did some research um around um money and neurodivergent people, and there was one of the questions that you had within the survey, which was around um careers and whether certain neurodivergent individuals felt that their careers maybe were stalled due to not earning the level of income they would want to earn due to um not getting the kind of roles they would truly deserve, but because of their neurodivergent conditions, it was kind of blocking them from getting there.

Disclosure Timing And Salary Negotiation

SPEAKER_01 33:12

Yeah, that's that's correct. Um, I just want to share a little bit about like the profiling of the respondents. So the majority were working adults, roughly late 20s to 40s, they were employed or self-employed. Many are in a professional or skilled role, education, healthcare, finance, tech, creative industries, public, etc, and so on. Um, a large proportion were late-identified ADHD, autism, dyslexia, dyspraxia, or a combination of them. Um, but what was really important is that many of them didn't have a formal diagnosis, but they knew something was wrong because a lot of people are exploring around you know being a neodivergent, and so they're self-identifying. But what really matters is that you know the data reflects people who are functioning on paper, but internally, you know, there's struggles there, whether it's you know, getting a job, changing jobs, etc. But yeah, so around one of the questions was around um whether or not they could be earning more if they had more support as a new divergent. And so around 70% of respondents said they felt that they could be earning more with better workplace support. Um, and there were like barriers. So there were barriers around unclear expectations in their role, inconsistent feedback from managers or leaders, lack of flexibility in their role. And also what came up a lot was the fear of being misunderstood or penalized if they were to ask for adjustment. So people didn't feel like they needed special treatment, but what came out was that they just needed more predictability, more clarity in their role and more psychological um safety. So, you know, uh some of the surprise and insights and the quotes that stood out. What I really liked about the survey was that it wasn't just like um tick box, it was very much qualitative. So I gave um respondents an opportunity to actually write out in their own words um what they wanted to say. And one thing that really stayed with me, some of the quotes that really stood out, was people saying every time I change a job, I feel relief at first, and then I feel shame later. You know, like once they get in the role, um they've worked so hard to get in the role. And it goes back to what Andrew mentioned earlier that as much as we are going to be interviewed, we also have to interview, you know, these recruiters and the people offering the job to make sure that it's a right fit. I think for neurodivergents, being in the right role is really important, not just getting a job, you know, to pay bills, but being in the right role is important because it impacts our mental health. You talked about, you know, you know, the business you're building, cognifying me, is all about um helping employees and neodivergents to be able to manage burnt out. So if you're in a role that burns you out, you're likely going to leave and you're likely going to job hot and maybe have gaps whilst you recover. So it's a real thing. Another um quote that really stood out was I'm great at my job, but I'm bad at selling myself. And it goes back to what Andrew was saying, how important that, you know, skills page is, that page one. And many neurodivergents struggle with articulating their skills, you know, poor work in memory. You know, sometimes when I'm applying for a job, I'm like, I don't even remember the things I'm good at. Um, one of the things that I do personally is like I keep a log. I don't do this daily, but I have like a Word doc and I just put the day every day and I kind of just bullet point what I did that day so that when I come to update my CV or I'm going for a job interview, I can go back and refer to it and I can remember, oh, I did a presentation that day. Oh, I helped, you know, um fulfill that procurement process and things like that. So work in memory can be a big challenge for neurodivergence, remembering. So that's why I think working with somebody to do your CV, they are going to ask you relevant questions, you know, and that will kind of help trigger your memory. Um, so yeah, it's it's a big thing in terms of the challenges people are experiencing and the especially neurodivergence where they feel that they could be earning more if they had more support in the workplace. So there's one thing getting the job, but there's also once you get the job, um being able to stay. And I think Andrew mentioned about you know, about the gaps, you know, and it's like a vicious cycle of like maybe the burnout, lack of support, um, having instability in their in their role. Um, and for a lot of people, even with disclosure, and we might you might ask this a bit later, but you know, some people feel stuck, they're between two kind of fears of if I disclose at the point of interview about my new divergence, will I be hired? And then it's okay, if I don't disclose, I'm not gonna get the support, and that's gonna lead to burnout, or that's gonna lead to me not being able to perform in my role well and maybe be put on a performance.

SPEAKER_02 38:52

I think disclosure is one of those um I guess great areas. And it's I think it's I think it my rule of thumb is that you should always disclose, but it depends on the point of where you disclose and that's when you decide the right time to disclose this is uh my condition. So it might not necessarily be an interview, but it might be at the point of the job offer where they'll probably have a HR team that will give you the opportunity to disclose any kind of conditions that might affect your role. So you just have to be I don't think it's good not to disclose, I think you should let people know this is what I have, but just at the point, at the right time. It's almost like um everything has a process and you choose the right point that would that would to let people know this is where I am. And it's also it's it's the same that goes, I guess I guess Andrew might might agree or disagree with me. It's I guess it comes to the same thing where you know, when you do get the job offer, like um, you know, negotiating those salaries. So maybe the salary range might be between, let's say, between 35k to 45. I'm just plucking up another one in the air, and you probably want the 45k salary and negotiate negotiating that amount before you take the offer off the role. You you wouldn't negotiate right at the interview, would you? You would negotiate once you've been offered the job. So it's almost the same way when you look at disclosure, it's different points that you then open those things up to the employer to see how well they'll take you as an employee. And also you have to be mindful about the type of job you are applying for. So, for example, if I'm working for a role where it's known as a neurodiversity company, I'm gonna disclose straight away because I know they're they will want to know that I'm neurodivergent, and they're probably looking for people like me that are neurodivergent. So um it yeah, it it you have to take those factors into account. I don't know how how much you agree with that, Andrew, but that's how I would put it.

SPEAKER_00 40:51

Yeah, no, yeah, no, you're absolutely right. Choosing when to disclose and choosing when to negotiate is is critical. So it's always just throughout the process, always yeah, just always make sure you reflect and be very self-aware of what stage of the process you're in and whether bringing up the salary at that point um is the best thing. Now, ideally, um, you know, to to discuss or or disclosing neurodivergency, ideally should be after your offer. Um, that that's you know, that that's pretty much the golden rule. Um, but there are exceptions to that. Um, and with regards to salary, uh, it's always about making and making sure you understand that if you're gonna negotiate for the higher tier or the higher salary, uh, is backing up with value. At the end of the day, employers want value for money, right? So if they're gonna spend 10,000 pounds more on your salary, they want to see how that equates to improved business performance. Um, so talking about your achievements, talking about how you justify that that amount of money is really important.

ATS Basics And Beating The Crowd

SPEAKER_02 42:03

No, that's no, that makes sense, yeah. Um, because you can't just say I work this 40, but they're my why do you want 45k? Exactly. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Um Esther, I wanted to ask you about the the money and stability and the burnout. Um, so what did you find with the links between money, stress, burnout, and career insta instability from the survey that you did? Um, and how does that how does that overlap in terms of I guess career progression or career instability or maybe even feeling stagnated where you are in your career because of these other factors that push you push you to try and apply for roles. For example, you might just apply for a role because the money is good, because you've taken time off work, but you need you need the money, but you know maybe that role might not be right for you, and you'll just do it for a bit thinking that you tell yourself I can just manage, then you burn out and you go through that burnout and recovery cycle again.

Tailoring Skills And Proof With Examples

SPEAKER_01 42:58

Yeah, and you you've literally just said it, it like it forms a loop. It literally is like this vicious cycle where burnout will lead to job change. Um, and then that job change might disrupt your income because it might mean that you have to say take something less because you're desperate to get a job, um, or yeah, for whatever reason, and then now you're earning less, or you're not earning as much as you feel that you should be earning. That income instability can lead to anxiety, and then that anxiety is going to impact your executive function, you know, your ability to plan, organize, and live your day-to-day life. And that in turn increases burnout and it just becomes a vicious, you know, cycle. So it really is important, you know, for people, all people, but especially new neurodivergents, to really prepare themselves to, you know, apply for the right jobs, um, understand the values of the organization. Is this a role, not just to get the job, but is this a role that you can stay in long term? Um, how big is the organization? Are there opportunities to move around? So I worked for TFL for 15 years. And one of the things I loved about TFL and how I believed they were very neurodivergent friendly, especially in the operational um department, is that you know, you can move stations, you can move around. There's like so many different roles, the organization's so big. So you had opportunity to kind of move around, develop your skills, and you know, go in the right place. And when I was a manager there, um, I would have staff members that I just knew this staff had no business being on the station because they just don't like customers, you know, they're grumpy, they just don't like customers. Um, and I just speaking to like that particular member of staff, and I would discover that actually what they would love is just to sit behind a train. They're very technical, they like complex things and they just want to drive the train. And so I would make it my mission to support that member of staff in getting a train driving role because that's where their skill set is, that's where you know they're able to function more. So I think being in the right role is really important. Um, being able to sell yourself so that you can get the right role, being able to articulate your skill set in your CV and especially at the interview, um, so that you can be able to, you know, request the support that you need, obviously after when you get the role, but to be able to earn the money that you deserve, a lot of neo divergents have RSD, rejection sensitivity disorders. There's there can be lack of self-belief, lack of confidence in themselves, um, having to prove themselves. It's not like they can't do the role. I remember when Andrew was speaking earlier on, it took me back to when I first applied for the customer service role at TFL. I was like 23 years of age, you know, went for interviews, but I think the staff format had just started to come out. And I didn't understand it. I didn't look at you know what format they're going to use. I was just going for a job interview. So when they were asking me about a specific time and place and what I did, the task and the actions and results, um, I really struggled with that. And I was just giving very generic examples to say, oh yeah, I help customers all the time. Oh yeah, I, you know, deal with challenging customers all the time. But they wanted that specific example. And the lady that interviewed me, she was absolutely amazing. And she said to me at the end of the interview, she said, I'm really sorry, but you haven't passed the interview. But I know that you can do this job. She said, I want you to go away and I want you to study the star format. This role is going to come out again in six months, and I want you to reapply. And so I went back to super drugs because that's where I was working before. I went back to my super drug job, and then I did study um the star format, and I realized I had the examples there, but I just wasn't able to bring it out in the interview. But she could see, you know, and being a neodivergent person, I go around the house and she could like, she's waiting for me to get there, but I just wasn't getting to the point. So really preparing yourselves for the interview, you know, is really important in being able to get the job that you truly know is going to support you with your income goals, as well as for you to be able to function in it long term as a neurodivergent. I hope I didn't go around the house answering that question, but you can have it right.

SPEAKER_02 47:50

I think you related that absolutely amazingly, Esther. No, thank you. I want to go back to you, Andrew, because I want to talk more about um A AST, which is a which is the technology they use to scan CVs to make sure that they're picking the right ones. There were two things that kind of came up to me when you had mentioned that. Number one, in today's market, if if we look at LinkedIn, sometimes you'll look at a role on LinkedIn. I'm just using LinkedIn as an example, and I'm sure other job boards do certain similar things as well. But you may see, like, oh, over three or two, 500 people have applied for this job. And then you're almost like, oh, what's the point in me applying? And then then almost at the same breath as well. You have a CV writing company, but people will be like, Well, I could go to Chat GTP, uh, you know, I could go to Claude AI, and they could do my C that could do my CV for for me. So how would that, how does that, how does having someone help you with your CV then go into an AI to do it compared to, you know, having someone hold your hand and like this is how your CV do it like? Um, and also how can you stand out with um ATS being scanning CVs where maybe your CV you do have the skill set, but maybe they're just picking the person that appears stronger, or even knowing if these jobs are actually real, because that's another thing as well. But I've asked kind of three questions in one. So we'll start with the first one about how do you stand out, you know, in a competitive market where you might look at a job board, LinkedIn, for example, see a role you like, but like over 500 people apply for that role.

Cover Letters That Actually Help

Job Search Strategy Over Spray And Pray

SPEAKER_00 49:30

Yeah, well, yeah, as hard as it sounds, that don't be put off because I I go back to my point earlier, which is the majority of those applications are gonna be applications with no genuine interest or just generic applications. You know, there's there's even software or applications now which will apply on your behalf. Um, so yeah, uh a lot of these applications are generic, uh, they they don't show a genuine interest. Um, and therefore, if your application uh is genuine, does show the interest, um, has a CV which is tailored to that job, um, then you have a very, very high chance of being of being shortlisted. Um so yeah, try try not to be put off because many of those applications are just not relevant to to that job. Um and you you'll even you'll even see it from many recruiters now where um you you'll see many stories of uh these hundreds of applications, and even the ones that they do get back to, people are not responding. And that just shows that they they weren't even applying uh properly in the first place. Um as for ATS and standing out with uh an applicant tracking system, I I go back to my point earlier, also that there's no right or wrong answer with it with ATS systems. That there are some best practice guidelines, but that there's so many systems on the market that are used by recruiters. Um, some of them work particular ways, and some of them don't work particular ways. So, but that there are some fundamentals that we need to be aware of uh to stand out for applications that are using ATS systems. Number one is the content. So we need to make sure that our content is relevant, we need to make sure it has the right keywords in a natural way, uh, and we need to make sure it's extremely tailored to the job spec. So when you're looking at the job spec, you you want to put your CV side by side with the job spec and make sure what's being requested in that job is demonstrated in your CV. The other element is format. Um so that there's many myths about this, you know, what format to use, etc. Um, but it is best to play it safe. Um, so making sure we don't put any graphics in your CV, for instance, you know, graphics for many ATS systems will not be read. You know, using text boxes, being inconsistent in your formatting. So, for instance, in your current role, if you on the CV, if you put the date, the job role, then the company, you know, on your next role, making sure it's consistent. So don't put the company, the date, the the job. Um, because you know, some ATS systems will look for that consistency in order to give um the summary to the recruiter. But like I said, there's no um no two ATS systems are the same. An ATS system is is simply there to collect, filter, and manage job applications. Some of them are more intuitive than others. Uh, for instance, I just uh was exposed to an ATS system two uh last week. I had a meeting with uh an ATS system, and uh it was an amazing system. It was uh it embedded AI as well. So, what it would do is it used AI to actually fully read the CV and give its own synopsis and recommendation to the recruiter um based on actual the narrative of the CV. It was it was amazing. So typically an ATS system would just look at you know particular triggers such as a keyword, location, whatever, and then kind of do a filter based on that, where this one was much more advanced. Um, so yeah, sweating about it too much is not a recommendation. Building and writing your CV uh for a human to read it is should be your approach. Uh, and if you do that, uh chances are is that the ATS system uh will will filter you out correctly anyway.

SPEAKER_02 53:40

I just want to uh go back on to like looking at examples and matching the role. So could you give an example of that? So, for example, I wanted to apply for as a role as a software engineer, for example, and I needed uh to have um skills such as um native nodes, um, I'm just thinking of um and um AI with native nodes and um React for example, these are some of the skills that you might need as a software engineer. Um how would that be demonstrated on a CV? And how would you show so if if the if the job um description says we're looking for an engineer with uh five five years of experience with nodes and native React um and AI um understanding, how would you demonstrate that in your CV to make sure that you're matching that role so you potentially will be called for interview and knowing that other engineers applying for that role? Because I know sometimes with engineering roles, you'll be asked in terms of a competency-based question, in terms of your interview, but also there'll be technical questions to show that can you really code? Um, do you know how to build um back-end systems um independently and all of that stuff?

SPEAKER_00 55:00

Yeah, so as as obvious as it might sound, um is is making sure uh to actually put the the the keyword. So uh let's say software engineering, which is not my specialty in any way, shape, or form. Um but let's say, for instance, you're applying for a software engineering role, you know, if that role requires you to be you know an expert in Python and JavaScript and AWS, you know, don't go and put that, you know, you're well versed in common software engineering applications. Because that, from an ATS point of view, adds no value whatsoever. If that job spec says you must be an expert in Python, you must be an expert in JavaScript, and make sure you actually put that word in your CV. Um, because that that's a key word that someone is going to filter um, you know, on an ATS system, for instance. So they're gonna filter out people who have knowledge and expertise in Python. And if you don't go and mention Python and mention something like you're an expert in common applications, then you you're not gonna get filtered. Um, so yeah, that that's probably the biggest tip is making sure that the synergy is not only about great, you know, I'm perfect for this role, but is looking at the the job spec, understanding the theme, and understanding the skills and the expertise that are required. So look for common words or common phrases that are used in that job spec. They may mention, for instance, that you know, Python is a critical part three or four times in the job spec. So you can bet your bottom dollar that Python is going to be important. And therefore, in your C V, don't only mention that you're an expert in Python, but when it comes to your achievements, talk about how you use Python to do a particular project. Because then you're going even a step further to say, not only am I an expert, but this is my proof.

SPEAKER_02 57:02

Um, I also wanted to ask about cover letters. Are they worth what they need to do you need to include a cover letter nowadays? Worth it? I don't know.

Ongoing Career Readiness And Logs

SPEAKER_00 57:10

Yeah, a lot of people ask this question. So first and foremost, if if a job application asks you for a cover letter, then include a cover letter. There's no exception. If you choose to miss it out because you think cover letters have no value, um, that you're not going to get uh shortlisted for that role because you're you're just skipping uh you know an initial request of the application. So if it asks for a cover letter, include a cover letter. If it doesn't ask for a cover letter, then include a cover letter only on the basis that that cover letter is completely tailored to that job application. If you're gonna apply with a generic cover letter on that job app uh application, um that is gonna do you more harm than good. Because again, it goes back to what I said earlier. Recruiters want to see that you have a genuine interest in that role. And if you put a generic uh cover letter, um that they're gonna say that this person has just literally copied and pasted. I'm not interested. And they won't even read your CV. They'll read the cover letter and they'll they'll just bin the CV and bin the rest. So only include a cover letter if it's tailored to that role. My opinion is, and based on my experience, is if you do include a cover letter when it's not asked for and it's tailored to that role, then that's going to be a massive advantage for your application, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_02 58:35

I do have something I that just kind of popped into my mind around um the job search, but you know, I guess looking for jobs is a is a job in itself, and there is strategy around it. Um and I I I'm I'm someone who I can admit to this, I don't this anymore, but I used to be that that job hunt person, job hunter that would just send the same CV to like a hundred recruiters and hope that, you know, almost like a um um spray and pray, you know, process. Yeah, just let me just hand out my CV and hopefully someone will get back to me. Um but I I don't think that is the best methodology. Um, so what kind of tips can you give people who are you know the strategies that they should take when they're starting to look for roles rather than just looking at a role, oh project manager role, I'm a project manager, let me apply, but not really looking at the description or understanding what the role is about properly.

Spotting Red Flags And Company Research

SPEAKER_00 59:31

Yeah, I think I think probably the best thing you can do really is is to sit down at the start of the job search process and agree with yourself what is your strategy because if you go into the job search process with no strategy, then you literally cannot manage what you don't measure with regards to how successful you're being, right? So you need to sit down at the beginning of the process and Make sure you really nail down the criteria of the type of role and what role you're looking for. That's first and foremost is understand that. So make sure you understand okay, I'm applying for roles in only Southwest London. Uh, you know, my salary must be 35,000 or 40,000, whatever the example might be. Um, you know, it needs to, you know, have 30 days holiday a year, it needs to have flexible working, hybrid working. You know, set out your criteria. Um, and then with that criteria, go out into the open world and and and make applications, but only with that criteria. And then as part of that strategy as well, is trying to make sure you understand what success looks like to you in your job search process. Now, ideally, it would be to get your job in the first week that you start applying, but it's not gonna, it's not gonna work like that, is it? So you know, think to yourself, okay, if I if I get you know three interviews in in my first month and uh one offer, then that is what success looks like to me. And by you having that in your head, it means that you're able to, at the end of your first month, you're able to say to yourself, Great, I've met my target of that, or I didn't meet my target. And if you didn't meet your target of three interviews and one callback, or whatever the case may be, then you need to ask yourself, okay, am I comfortable to continue that strategy, or do I need to broaden my criteria? Because it might be that your criteria is way too specific, or there's just not enough jobs, there's just not enough demand. So it might be that you need to lower your salary expectations, it might be you need to think, okay, I need to do a bit more of a longer commute here. But the main thing is that you're you have an internal dialogue to say what is your strategy, because you know, there's nothing worse than going into a job search process, you know, doing hundreds of applications, thinking I'm going to be successful because I've done 200 applications at the end of the first month, you've just gone nowhere because you you know sent out a load of generic applications and haven't had any engagement. Um, so go in with a strategy. That that's that's the best thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:21

And I remember Esther, you've kind of mentioned, and I think this will really help the listeners um in regards to you almost have to prepare yourself, even if you're not looking for a job, but almost prepare yourself that you might have to look for a job because uh by uh going through your current um skills that you are demonstrating within the workplace and keeping log of all those things you did within with with your current employer, that will put you in a great stead when it comes to actually looking for roles. Because sometimes what happens, and it happens to probably a lot of uh it probably happens to anybody, but I I think it happens to a lot of NDAs where we don't really think about long term, we don't have a long-term plan planning horizon. We tend to plan in the moment or panic, or we make rash decisions based on adrenaline or how we're feeling because it's an emotional decision. But um what we need to start doing, I think, and this is for people to even not neurodivergent, but you have to kind of have a have a planned horizon because nothing is permanent, even though they say you're in the permanent role, it may not be permanent. So it's always important that whatever you're picking up from the role that you're in currently, know that you remember those skills, you know what you've done there. Look at your CV every, I don't know, every three months or six months as an audit, so that when a time comes where you may have to look for another role potentially, you kind of have that ready. And that's sometimes not always easy to do because you're just in the midst of your role, you're doing the job, you're performing at work, you're trying to hit target, you're trying to meet all your objectives at work. But it is important to take um light of everything that you've done over time and make a quick look of it, even if it's like a little spreadsheet you have or a little notepad you have in your filing system saying that I did this, I did this, that when it comes to your three-month you know update of the CV, you could add those things when you're ready. And when if you then choose to look for another role, you you're in the best position to do so because all that information is there.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:37

Yeah, I totally I I agree. And I think even working with somebody like Andrew and his company, I wouldn't wait until I am applying for a job to even start that process. I would reach out in advance and you know, hey Andrew, um looking into this type of role in the near future. You know, how do I need to position myself? You know, because for neurodivergence, it's it's the preparation that's key. It's preparing ourselves, it's giving ourselves time to think about what we want, think about our skill set, how we can translate that. It's likely that the CB might have to go through several drafts. So I agree with what you're saying, not to wait until it's time, you know, to move, or when you're redundant, or you know, that kind of thing, just sort of plan and do bits of it. Um, I also did want to ask a question to to Andrew because you know, I'm very suspicious of organizations and businesses, right? I've applied for jobs that once I've got in the role, it's nothing like the job description. It's like, hold on a minute, it's like I didn't sign up for this, you know, and I always say to my like younger nieces and nephews that are like graduating from uni, I always say to them, look, your first job is just gonna be your first job. You're gonna have lots of other jobs. And I always say to them, whatever's on the job description, just be 80%, 50% okay with it, because the other 50% you're not gonna know till you get the role. So how we you know just catfish, they catfish us basically. That's the point. That's all I'm saying. Exactly. So my my question to you, Andrew, is how can we filter bad job descriptions that are vague, generic, and what are the red flags that we should look out for? Because, like you said, it's a lot of work to apply for jobs, prepare for the interviews, it's time consuming, energy draining. So, how can we get away from those bad actors within the job market?

Recruiters Vs Direct Applications

Final Advice: Self-Regulation And Asking For Help

SPEAKER_00 1:06:42

Yeah, I think I think it's about utilising your own experience in your career. So maybe, you know, if you've had previous roles which you haven't enjoyed or made you happy, you know, are there any triggers within that job spec that you know have the same sort of language, same sort of uh I guess intent with regards to the type of work and environment? Um I I think it's it's also the the research is critical, isn't it? It's about understanding the company. So really you know, deep dive into the company, their ethics, their mission, their values, uh, and really try and understand, you know, what they stand for uh as a company. Because you know, if if if the CEO of that company or MD of that company um demonstrates them themselves in a particular way, and and that's a way that you don't get on with, um yeah, the the chances are is that the culture is going to be the same as that MD, and and and therefore you're not gonna get on with it. So I think research is is critical. And the way that we can research is by making sure we follow the company on things like LinkedIn, follow the MD, have a look at employees of that company, um, do some research around um you know anything to do with attrition um within that company, that's gonna be a good indicator as well. Uh looking at any uh any news or any articles if it's a big company, um, because obviously that's gonna be again indicative of the culture as well. Um, so I think research is is pretty critical. And I think once you get in the role, if you feel you've been catfished, um then again, you know, it's about making sure you understand what your strategy is within your career. Is it is it a is it a job uh which is just a stepping stone? Is it a job just to pay the bills, uh, or is it a job that is a critical part of your career? If it is a critical part of your career, um then doing everything to make sure you're successful and making sure you have a path to being eventually happy in that role. And if you don't see that path, um then make a decision because you know being in a job that you're not happy in is is is counterproductive to to your mental health, let alone let alone your career, because you're not going to succeed. Um, but make sure you you try everything. So be honest with your manager, you know, speak with your manager, you know, obviously try and be um you know very tactical about what you're trying to get across in the sense of this is not what I signed up for. Um it might just be a misunderstanding, it might be a lack of training, it might be the fact that you've gone in and you know you're not doing something right, and therefore it's frustrating you, and therefore you're not as productive as you would like to be. And it might be that some it might be something as simple as the training was missed. You know, have a chat with your manager. The manager might say, Oh my god, we uh we should have trained you on this uh and we missed it. So let's get you trained up. Um, but as much as it's an exhausting process for the interviewee and the employee, remember also it it is a process, I don't want to say exhausting, but it is a process and it's intensive for the employer as well. You know, it costs thousands of pounds to employ someone, uh and the employer, well, most good employers will want you to be successful. And if they understand that quickly when you start the role, then they'll try and put that right. Otherwise, they would have put weeks and thousands of pounds to waste. So, you know, we need to think about, you know, believe that our employer has our best interests at heart. Unfortunately, some employers don't, um, but many employers do.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:41

Yeah. What do you think about platforms like Glassdoor? And um I was just gonna ask that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:49

Yeah, there's Glass, there's Glassdoor as well. I um I was trying to think of another one as well. I came across I totally forgot. But I would say yeah, Glassdoor is a good one. LinkedIn, LinkedIn is good because with LinkedIn, you can quite easily, if you didn't know, you can quite easily put your LinkedIn on stalking mode and go and look at employees. Um, so you know, put your LinkedIn on private mode so that they don't see that it's you and go and look at the manager, go and look at your team, go and look at the employees that are part of that company and see what they're saying on LinkedIn. You know, are they all looking for jobs? Do they all have open-to-work profiles? Because, you know, if they do, that might be a good indicator something's going wrong. Yeah, go and look at your manager. Is is your potential manager, you know, are they a thought leader? Are they feeding into um the thing that they should be passionate about, which is their job, their their company, right? So, yeah, go and look at that because that that that's that will say a lot of words as well, along with things like Glassdoor. And there's there's another one as well, but I totally forgot. Um, but yeah, those two two platforms are good.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:59

And do you know what you mentioned about these um catfish companies? I don't find it's the companies necessarily that are bad. I find that sometimes you know, when you get recruitment consultants, I've had very bad recruitment consultants and they'll put me forward for jobs that just don't make any sense. And I find I find more successful, I go directly to the employer. So I don't know, it's just the balance between both. But that's just my own personal experience. I can't speak of you know what other people have had, but I find when I go directly to the the actual recruiter, like the job, um, I get a better outcome and I can probably do more research than having a recruitment say, Oh, there's a role for you, you know. Do you want to take yeah?

SPEAKER_00 1:12:41

The chances are, you know, if you do go with a recruiter, always check the employer because yeah, you know, it might be the agreement between the employer and the recruiter is is that the recruiter is not exclusive to advertising that job. Um, so if they're not exclusive, it probably means that the employer will also put the job ad out directly. Um and as we all know, recruiters make their money from uh from you being successful, right? So for some employers, you know, that they'll save a lot of money by not going through the recruiter, but obviously comes the admin of dealing with applications. So it really comes down to to the employer. But yeah, if you can apply directly, then yeah, absolutely go with it.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:22

Yeah, I think well, I've had yeah, I've had a mixed bunch, I would say. But yeah, I think that if you go to the employer directly, I think you get a better outcome rather than just going to recruitment consultants that said jobs that might not make sense, or they'll tell you one thing, and then when you get there, you're like, this is something completely different, which I've had an experience of. That tends to happen because I I used to do a lot of contracting and there were roles I went into thinking it was this, and then when I got there, it was like something else completely. I was like, okay, let me deal with that right now. So um, yeah, you're definitely right on that. Um, I would like to kind of like um just kind of wrap this up on from both points um for both of you actually. So if you could give one piece of career advice, uh I'll start with you, Esther, actually. Um, to newer divergent professionals today's what would it be um given that you did your research on this um and you also being an NDA yourself?

SPEAKER_01 1:14:21

Yeah, I think it's very easy for us to internalise some of the challenges um of like applying for a role, um, getting through interviews, and obviously once you get the role, staying in that role. So it's just to let people know that there's not anything wrong with you per se. A lot of it as well is you know systemic, um, and just to kind of reframe how you look at it. So if you feel that, oh gosh, I have so many inconsistencies in my career, whether it's gaps or job hopping, then just seeing that as actually that's more of you being able to adapt. So working with like a CV coach from you know Andrew's company will help you to will help you to um articulate that inconsistency into how you are able to adapt. Also, um a lot of the time under-earning when we're taking roles, because sometimes we feel it's a choice between survival or earning more income. You know, sometimes you're in a role because you're like, oh, I feel safe here, I have my adjustments, but actually I could be earning more, but you're scared that if you were to apply for a manager manager role or a leadership role, you might not get the same support. So just really understanding that sometimes under-earning isn't because you're not capable, it's just that you might be choosing the self-protection. Um, and then I think finally, um, you know, like being able to translate as well. So where you struggle with the articulation, working with a CV coach, you know, can really give you the support you need to put that on paper. Internally, we know we can do our jobs and most neurodivergence, we just want to get on with it. It's like I don't want to talk about how I do the job, just see see me doing the job, you know, see my performance. But when you are applying for a job CV interview, you do have to, you know, articulate and having that practice. So just implement all of the skills that Andrew has shared, but also remembering that you have to self-regulate yourself as a new divergent, you do have to feel safe, you have to manage, you know, your energy burnout. So even when you're going through the interview process, you know, looking after yourself, eating well, sleeping well, prepare yourself to go through the process so that you can be successful at the end of it.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:49

Thank you, Esther. And the same question to you, Andrew. If you could give one piece of a career advice to a neurodivergent professional today, what would it be?

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SPEAKER_00 1:16:59

Yeah, great answer, by the way, Esther. Um, yeah, I think well, mine's gonna be simple, but it's really effective. Um, and sometimes many people forget this, but ask for help. You know, it doesn't have to be paid help, um, but ask for help. You know, look in your network of friends. Are any of them managers? Are any of them involved in recruitment? You know, ask for help, you know, get them to read your CV, get them to tell you what sort of questions are being asked in an interview nowadays, get them to also help you with your job search. Um, and there's loads of free advice out there. Some of it is overwhelming, I get that. Um, but you know, there is a lot of free advice. If you do find one particular channel, be it YouTube, LinkedIn, whatever, try and stick to one particular channel and one particular person who has the credentials, because there's a lot of advice out there given by people who don't have the experience and don't have the credentials, and they're just in it for the likes and in it for the views and everything else. So make sure if you're going to follow someone or get someone to help you, make sure they they they have the right experience to give you that help, uh, whether that's over a video or someone that you actually know. So, yeah, key thing for me, ask for help, uh, whether that's professional or or your or your friends or your network. Um, don't don't ever forget that there's people that will help you.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:19

No, thank you. I would like to say thank you both of you. And um, both of you gave a lot of wisdom, gold, like treasure. Like it was really great. I really enjoyed this podcast. Thank you, Esther, for the research and giving us the language of for what neurodivergent people are really experiencing. And Andrew, your advice really helped translate um that into sort of practical steps on how people could act on today. So, this has been such a valuable conversation, and I'm really hoping that the listeners get so much out of this because it's been really helpful. So, yeah, we had a really good episode. I really enjoyed myself and I got a lot of um help. So, whenever whenever I'm ready to at the moment, I'm going for the entrepreneur world right now. But if I ever decide to I want to go back in the job market, I know exactly what to do. So, no, thank you both so much for your time. Um and any and any final words for you before we close.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:12

Just thanks for having having me. It's been a great podcast, and I've I've written down notes as well for my next job search.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:22

No, no, and it's it's been a pleasure. Thank you for the invite, Sarah and Esther. No, it's been um no been a pleasure, and uh hope we do something similar again one day. We'll see.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:31

Yeah, we come back on, come back on again. You can come on Esther's podcast as well. So, yeah, you're always welcome. Thank you so much. I just want to let our audience members know about the six week coaching program that I'll be offering for people who are neurodivergent and who want to improve their career prospects in general, or those who want to get into project management. You can also be non neurodivergent too. I mentioned this. Earlier in previous episodes, but I want to make the time to offer it up to those looking for help in those areas in their life, as it's a great way to learn new skills to help you advance in your career. I'm also offering my support to people who want to pass the Print 2 Practitioner exam or other project management exams, as I've taken and failed the test a few times, and I would like to help others by showing them how I passed. I also launched my membership, Neuro in EGMA, in which you get supportive community, career and business mentorship, monthly group coaching calls, networking opportunities, mental health well-being days, and unlimited body doubling sessions and UK and very soon international meetups. I'm also working with the British Dyslexic Association and Lexic, one of the UK's biggest neurodiversity organizations, to ensure our members get free full neurodiversity assessments accredited with an educational psychologist or doctor. So if this sounds like you're interested to learn more, please reach out to me directly to talk more about the membership. Please follow me on all platforms where you listen to podcasts. Thank you for listening to Divine Eggmar. And if you got to the end, this is a safe place for project managers, professionals, side hustlers, and anybody who's looking to navigate the complexity of being neurodiverse in the workplace and the corporate space.