Watkins & Gunn, the law firm that puts people first

What does it really mean to embed wellbeing into a law firm — not as an initiative, but as a way of working?

In this special Awards Winners episode of the Legal Sector Resilience Podcast, host and Legal News Wales Editor Emma Waddingham speaks with Watkins & Gunn, winners of the Wellbeing Strategy of the Year Award 2025, to explore how a values-led approach to wellbeing has become central to the firm’s culture, leadership and long-term success.

Joining the conversation are Clive Thomas, Managing Director; Katie O’Connell, Solicitor and lead of the firm’s Wellness & Gunn initiative; and Emma Taylor, Solicitor and member of the wellbeing team.

For Watkins & Gunn, wellbeing is not a reaction to pressure — it is a deliberate strategic choice.

A model for the sector

This episode offers practical insight for firms wondering how to move beyond wellbeing weeks and tick-box policies — and toward something more meaningful.

Watkins & Gunn’s message is clear: start with values, listen deeply, share ownership, and pace change sustainably.

For more information and signposting, visit the insights section on legalnewswales.com and use the 'Legal Sector Resilience Podcast' filter.

Transcript

Awards Context And Why It Matters

Emma Waddingham, Host 0:00

Welcome to the Legal Sector Resilience Podcast, conversations with the people driving stronger, smarter, and more sustainable legal practices. I'm Emma Waddingham, editor of Legal News Wales, and in each episode, I speak with trusted voices to inspire the legal sector, sharing advice, lessons, and lived experiences across leadership, growth, technology, finance compliance, culture, diversity, client care and more. Together we'll explore what it really takes to build resilient law firms that make a difference, not just for clients, but across communities in Wales. Thank you for tuning in. Before we begin, don't forget to subscribe and share this podcast with colleagues and join our insights and events community at legalnewswales.com. As part of series two, we're including some special episodes shining a light on the winners of the Legal News Wales Awards. The 2025 awards hosted in June celebrate the people and legal practices who are raising the bar in leadership, innovation, growth, and impact across Wales. These conversations offer a chance to go beyond the awards headlines to hear the real stories of resilience, purpose, and progress that are shaping the future of the legal profession here in Wales. In this episode, we speak with a team at Watkins and Gun, winners of the Legal News Wales Awards Wellbeing Strategy of the Year in 2025, to explore how they've embedded well-being into the heart of their legal culture. From redefining workplace policies to launching their own wellness and gun movement, this is a story about values, creativity, and how a law firm can support its people to thrive, not just survive. So welcome Clive Thomas, Managing Director, and Katie O'Connell, Associate Solicitor and Family, ahead of Watkins Wellness and Gun, sorry, at the firm, and Emma Kayla, an NQ in personjury at Watkins and Gunn. The firm is a regional law firm with offices across South Wales, and all three are with me today. Welcome to all.

Clive Thomas 7:20

Thanks very much. Thanks for having me.

Emma Waddingham, Host 7:23

An absolute pleasure. So I thought that we can talk a little bit. Obviously, the the um judges will have seen your entry. Uh, we will have heard a little bit on the night um last June about why you won. Um but these podcasts are a lovely opportunity for us to kind of not just it's not just a one-night thing, so we can really explore a little bit more about your submission, why you won and what you're doing and what can be done with the hope of inspiring others as well. Um and of course, you know, the the partner for this award was Law Care, which is the national mental health and well-being charity for the entire legal profession. Um, and Elizabeth Rimmer, the CEO, was on the panel, um, which adds so much value and weight to this award. Um, and uh I just wondered how you felt about winning on the night, particularly in light of the fact that Law Care was supporting as well.

Clive Thomas 8:11

No, it's great. It meant a huge amount to us because it's validates our years of uh embedding well-being into our culture, not just as a TikTok exercise, but as one of our core values. And winning an award supported by Law Care makes it even more special. I've met uh a very inspirational uh Elizabeth on a number of occasions. So uh I've heard about their work firsthand so many times from her. So uh a really proud moment for the whole team.

Emma Waddingham, Host 8:39

Yeah, definitely. Um and I know that the wellness and gun, uh, you've got lots of different value kind of leads and subsections and and and projects within the firm. And wellness and gun is one of those. And it's not, you know, this isn't a short-term thing for you all. And I wondered where where that started, where that came around, and particularly, you know, coming out of COVID and wellbeing was obviously massively on the agenda. How has that changed? Where did that come about, particularly after that point, and how has it maybe changed over the last five years for you?

Clive Thomas 9:11

I think originally the name was something I came up with from wanting something memorable and fun that would reflect uh our personality as a firm. Uh, it was the second Wellness and Gun was the second of five sub brands we set up. Um it was after Watkinson One, which was about increasivity, and uh before Watkinson Green, obviously about the environment, and Watkins Argum Reich, about promoting the Welsh language and Walking to Give, but uh sort of charitable giving and pro bono work. So the idea of them all is to invent uh them into the culture by setting up a subbrand that isn't led by a partner or a director, and uh with a team of people spread across the different offices and the different roles that we have within the firm, originally led by Kate Roberts back in back in the day, uh, who is our director, and now changed hands over the years with different associates, and now led by Katie and those who volunteer across the team. So uh over to you, Katie. How are you finding it?

Katie O’Connell 10:10

Yeah, no, I think it's great. I think it's probably one of the things that that first attracted me to the film um when I when I came to Watkins and Gunn was that they had the defined sub brands, um, particularly wellness. I think as a family lawyer, I tend to see raw emotion on the daily um from clients. And it's also about making sure that our own well-being is looked after to be able to do the best job that we can then for our clients and and continue to deliver really good legal services. So that was one of the big things that attracted me to the firm in the first place. Um, but in terms of wellness and gun itself, I'm supported by an amazing team that um help to put forward initiatives and promote openness around physical and mental health, and we tackle all sorts of subjects um as well. Uh so that's what we we're trying to do through Wellness and Gun, it complements the the policies um that are in place, the well-being charter. Um so yeah, it's it's really good, it's going well.

Emma Waddingham, Host 11:16

Yeah, and I I think that um, you know, when I was speaking to Elizabeth after the judging, we we have an in-person interview with our finalists, and that's how they choose the winners. Um and it was the fact of going back to this point of it being, I mean, it is a strategy award, a well-being strategy award, and you know, which she felt that so often the initiatives take over and the strategy kind of falls to the wayside. And I think having that subbrand gives that that defined focus. And also, as you say, Clive, you've you've brought it, it's not led by the directorship. So you've got individuals from the bottom up. And has that has that really helped in terms of kind of keeping that pace and have that accountability as well by having you know the team embedded in it from the start?

Clive Thomas 12:00

Yeah, I think it really has to avoid that sort of top-down approach or something being forced on, and whereas uh it's actually something that's being driven and uh um within the firm by uh by those within the firm, if you know what I mean, so that they're providing the uh motivation to keep it going. How are you finding it, Emma, as as one of the volunteers within the team who are doing that?

Bottom‑Up Leadership And First Aiders

Emma Taylor 12:23

I um yeah, I find it I find it really helpful. Um I think uh it's good to have people at probably my level, maybe uh a little lower and a little higher levels um within wellness and gun because it helps us be approachable as a wellness and gun um team and as a sub brand. Um I find that certain people that may not approach those higher up will approach those of my level. So it is quite nice. It is quite nice to be a volunteer, but it's something I believe in as well.

Emma Waddingham, Host 12:55

So I find uh I find a bit helpful to have that absolutely and it's picking up on those conversations in the office and when you're meeting as well. And it is distinct from the first stage support as well, isn't it? The wellness first stage, and that and that and that to me seems quite important that it it is different because you probably pick up as much MI on how people are feeling from the Wellness and Gun project as you you might be from the first data program. Is that is that the case?

Clive Thomas 13:22

Yeah, it's all of the anonymous when people do uh tap into the uh mental health first stages. We don't necessarily know about it, but it's uh I'll often hear sort of secondhand that someone's had help within the firm and we haven't been made aware of it, which is great in a way, do you know this structure's working?

unknown 13:37

Yeah.

Clive Thomas 13:39

Sometimes the last people that uh someone certainly might want to speak to would be a manager or a director or partner, but they can speak to someone on their own level and have those conversations and perhaps resolve it or find a better way to do it before they take to the next stage if they even need to. So uh I think having that structure and support would be really important.

Emma Waddingham, Host 13:58

Yeah, absolutely. So, Katie, tell us a little bit more. How do you how do you set how do you focus on the strategy through uh wellness and gun? Do you have like a a regular look at going back to where you want to kind of get to? How does how often does that change?

Katie O’Connell 14:12

Yeah, so we have um regular meetings within Wellness and Gun, and it's just really important to keep in mind that not there's not one size that fits all, and and it's ever moving as well, the challenges that people face will change. Um, and so we our our really important thing is is listening to what our our team members want, um, because and not just listening, I suppose, it's also acting on that with what they want. So we will have regular meetings amongst ourselves to discuss um, because we're we're all based in different offices as well, which is is handy because we get a good insight into what's going on across the board. Um, but then we also have things like the positive post box where people can put in anonymously if they want to, suggestions um as to what they what would benefit their well-being as well. Um we have anonymous surveys um that we'll go out to. Um we've also had focus groups in the past which have then led on to develop the well-being charter. So it's not about just having the these policies or the charter in place and not just the words on the paper, but it's actually bringing it to life. So, what Wellness and Gunn will do then is to try and promote and make people aware of what's going on by having these um initiatives. So things like we had World Uh Gratitude Day, where the senior leaders wrote words of gratitude to their uh team members, which was really lovely. And that was I think that's one that stood out to me because you get so wrapped up in your day-to-day job that you forget sometimes to say thank you, um, and what they and to remind them of what they bring to the team. And I think that was really powerful and had a great impact across the the firm. Um and basically it was us bringing to life the values of of the firm and and I think that's the key. We just need to keep going back to those the first values that we've got in place.

Emma Waddingham, Host 16:17

Definitely. Um, and so obviously it's not just about like a well-being week or a particular day, is it? Um so when you do you have to go back into kind of getting managed management and leadership buy-in, or have you got quite a lot of autonomy around the the the initiatives that you're coming up with?

Katie O’Connell 16:34

Um so to be honest, we've um there's uh Lisa Guska, she's a a director of the firm and she um is very supportive and and she's always um you know willing to engage with with me about any ideas that we have or or the team, the wellness team. Um so it's not so much about the ideas, I think, that we need to get buy-in from. It's that if it's if it's a bit more extravagant, perhaps if it's a bit if it's a bit of a uh something that we need to uh involves planning. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, so it's it's never and and to be honest, we're never told no, you can't do that, because if it matters to us, then I believe it matters to the directors, because this is the whole point of wellness and gun to try and um make sure that our voices are being heard from from below. So yeah.

Strategy, Surveys And The Wellbeing Charter

Clive Thomas 17:23

I think that is important because you don't want it to just to be like a sort of fluffy add-on, do you lots little ad hoc things doing the year? But we try what we've sought to achieve is to invent that well-being in the firm by making it a core part of the culture and the decision making. So not something you just talk about occasionally, but actually get it built into our policies and our leadership approach and day-to-day operation. So uh from a leadership point of view, you you expect directors to be visible champions of those initiatives, although they're not part of of wellness and gun. You want them to be a part of the whole sort of thing and uh leading from the front, send that strong message out. And uh from a director's point of view, of course, well-being drives performance.

Emma Waddingham, Host 18:04

Yeah.

Clive Thomas 18:04

So uh there is a business case for well-being, not just it being a fluffy hand-on. Happy team makes happy clients, which makes uh happy directors.

Emma Waddingham, Host 18:13

Absolutely. And is that something absolutely, and I suppose when you're you know shaping any kind of new um strategy or policy or approach to work or reshap, you know, how that that well-being aspect is thought about to how might that affect people? What do we have to do? Not just communicate the message, but how do we make sure that that everyone's on board and happy and and and we're looking at those aspects? Is that something that intrinsically is part of your process as directors as well?

Clive Thomas 18:42

Yeah, yes, it certainly is. I mean, we're always keen to gain uh feedback via surveys or uh having focus groups uh before we make uh big decisions, like a lot of things we've talked about recently, like flexibility and bringing in the new flex and working policy, things like that, where um things are changing the time recording policy, things that we think that aren't strictly on well-being, but they're gonna impact it, aren't they? That's uh these sorts of things we've got to think how is this gonna play out. Uh, let's make sure we've got buy-in before we do it, rather than uh impose things from top down, which which are gonna have a negative impact. We need to think about it first to make sure it's brought in in a way that suits everyone, as well as the business. Obviously, it's got a business case for everything, but with well-being in mind. Because we wanted to move from just uh having policies to get more under the bonnet, which was the idea of uh the well-being charter. We had a comprehensive survey, we can get external help from uh Lianne Bird from uh Kudu, and um that well-being charter came to many from that. Within that, it's a living document. The idea of it is to reflect um a sort of collective commitment to fostering the supported workplace so it lays out the expectations around uh respectful communication, boundaries for availability, sort of things I need to start doing, like sending emails and then uh half weeks through the evening, you know, and you just think, well, I've got that off my desk. We don't think of the email. I mean, zomed out, and suddenly they feel they got a reply because a managing director sent them an email and then they come to the evening. So you gotta think, well, why don't we just time it to send it for eight o'clock the next morning or nine o'clock or whatever, you know? It doesn't have to go now, just having a bit of common sense. So uh that sort of boundaries around availability and then the behaviors, but both not just from uh team members, but also leadership, it cuts both ways, doesn't it? How we behave uh to each other and it's all closely tied into the core values that we have, and it's that sort of lens that you look to for key decisions.

Emma Waddingham, Host 20:47

Yeah, absolutely. And I'm I'm gonna talk about that kind of impact and measurement um uh a bit later. And you know, that's something that always comes up with the awards as well. You know, that's great to see some of the positive things are being done, but how how is it impacted? How is it measured? And I think that's something that is really important when people are putting awards submissions together to evidence things um as well, because it can become quite a fluffy, as you say, PR piece of the wise. Um, but let's talk about some of the initiatives that you know you rolled out quite an impressive mix of policies and initiatives and well-being passports and obviously the mental um health fair status, which are really common now and never cross, but also manifold-friendly um accreditations and obviously the well-being charter. What initiatives or um progress has been had the biggest impact in Germany so far, do you think? Or something that perhaps is constantly repeated. You know, a lot of things kind of fell off the cliff, didn't they? Like yoga mornings and all sorts. But is there something that's really stuck and um and been quite popular?

Culture Shift: Menopause And Taboo Topics

Katie O’Connell 21:46

I think for me, I think one of the biggest things was opening up discussion about menopause. Because even though it doesn't directly impact everybody, um they will likely know somebody or be connected to somebody. Who's going through that? But it wasn't even just the menopause policy and everything that we were doing around that. It was the it almost gave the green light to be open about topics which are usually taboo. And you know, people just did not talk about menopause, let alone with male colleagues or senior, you know, or directors. And so I think for me, that was one of the biggest changing points. And and and again, Lisa who had talked about earlier, she was very um vocal about her own experience. And so I think because as a firm we could see Lisa opening up about these things, we then felt able that we could raise other things that perhaps weren't linked to menopause but are not easy topics either. Um so I think that's the impact is the shift of the the cult the culture, I think, to be able to openly talk about these things, such as periods and you know, and having a period dignity policy and things like that, which you wouldn't dare say, you know, previously. Um you've just got on with it, didn't you? That was it, you know, you get on. And so I think for me, that's the biggest impact that has been that I've seen is that that openness, that ability to speak openly about the things that that matter to you or are having an impact on you. Um so not one individual thing, but I think it's the culture that is creating. And like obviously, like Clive was saying earlier, it's nice to win the awards to be recognised for that. But for me, it's the day-to-day impact that it has, um and making sure that people are happy at work and the well-being, well-being matters are being discussed in a proper way, in a meaningful way.

Emma Waddingham, Host 23:47

And and obviously that safe space is you know, what can I know for many years you've you've um won the you know a great place to work and and the cultural aspects as well. And so having that safe space solidified already to be able to talk about those challenges that everyone faces that are difficult. And it's hard to admit I'm struggling or there are, yeah, exactly. If you don't want to look kind of weak or um in difficulty, it's a really difficult thing in the workplace, isn't it?

Katie O’Connell 24:14

Yeah, and I think obviously the law profession is known for for that, putting it on a brave face and stiff up a lip and you get on with it regardless of what's going on in your own life. Um, and I always remember being told a story about a solicitor that was went into the office very unwell, not Watkins a gun, I was saying, went into the office extremely well. Uh, to do a hearing, turns out he's having a heart attack. Um so it's just about prioritizing, I think recognising that we've got to look after ourselves to be able to do a good job for others in.

Emma Waddingham, Host 24:44

Yeah, absolutely. And as you spoke about earlier, though, the the vicarious trauma that comes as part of that. And you know, I mean you work in an NQ and in-person injury, you know, it's another area with that that that suffers a lot around that vicarious trauma. And it's not for everybody, it's not a field for everybody.

Emma Taylor 24:59

Like Katie was saying, the culture of Watkins again and it being very focused on well-being has helped me um be able to cope with that stress. I I champion the fact that we have mental health first aiders and well-being champions. I I love that fact that I know that there are specific people that if I'm struggling, if I feel like everything is overwhelming, I have that the people there, the the support there that I could I could have that and I could have someone to speak to. Um it's nice to have that on as a ground level and higher up to have people there that will support the fact that it is, it is a stressful, stressful environment. And most areas are you can't you can't deny the fact that law is a very stress, stressful environment to work in. However, it is it is a completely different culture here to previous places that I've been where it feels like uh we are championed in the fact that we do deal with deal with it in a different way, and it's it is impressive that I came here and I joined Warsaw again straight away on the belief that it is actually very important to have well-being at the forefront. Yeah, definitely.

Emma Waddingham, Host 26:13

Yeah, yeah. And as a, you know, as a junior lawyer as well, um you I know you you were part of the junior lawyer division um in Cardiff and South East Wales. Um, and you know, people move around more frequently than they used to, particularly I know COVID and it's there's huge um issues with the recruitment. You know, what what what do you, or perhaps the peers or the conversations that you've had with other junior lawyers about why they stay within a firm? I mean, and I know money is always a factor in the quality of work, but you know, is culture increasingly one of those drivers for that kind of loyalty and and where the people are thinking of working?

Emma Taylor 26:50

I would say so, yes. I'd say that's a definite factor for me staying where I've been for such a long time as a junior lawyer. I I believe that if you enjoy where you work and the people surrounding you are supportive, then I believe that it does create a culture of staying staying where you are. If you find that you can't speak to members of your department, you can't speak to anybody higher up, you're struggling on your own, you're feeling overwhelmed, I feel that does push people to seek somewhere that does offer more support because it it is it is a tough world and it is not it doesn't get any easier someday. So it is nice and it does drive people, I think, to stay. I believe. I believe I I would yeah, I treat Watkins again like a family more than yeah.

Emma Waddingham, Host 27:44

Well, we're we're at work for a long time every day, aren't we?

Emma Taylor 27:46

We probably see our colleagues more than our family members and colleagues more than my partner, so yeah, it is it is my chair and office of mine, but I don't ever see him.

Emma Waddingham, Host 28:00

So um, so yeah, definitely, definitely more. I'd say all the colleagues in the legal sector probably do more. Um fantastic, thank you. Um, and so and you've got things that are you talking about um some of the the period dignity um projects that you've got and the flexible leave and um and also around bereavement as well. And I wondered like how you know, did that happen quite organically? You you talked about you know, Lisa kind of championing around um conversations around menopause. Is that is all those conversations have happen very much through Wellness and Gunn, through the employees up Clive, or you know, was there ever a time we think, oh, we're not looking at because there's a tendency, isn't there, to go, oh that's the next thing we need to talk about. We must be talking about this. Is it you know has it happened quite organically?

Vicarious Trauma And Junior Lawyer Retention

Clive Thomas 28:42

Mostly organically. Um the uh Lisa shared her personal experience, you know, and became Menopause uh warrior and uh brought that through into this that was very much organic. Other things will come directly from like a survey, the bereavement leaf thing that came from a point made in uh one of our anonymous uh pulse surveys uh that was specifically from that, you know, as someone flagged it as an issue. Okay.

Emma Waddingham, Host 29:04

Fantastic, yeah.

Clive Thomas 29:04

Uh you know, so you're listening and you find these things out from within. So I think that's so important, isn't it? Because it's very easy for me to glide along and assuming all's well without knowing uh that there's an issue unless people flag it up to us. So uh I think the pulse surveys are really important and things like that where where people get the opportunity to anonymously is better, isn't it? To be able to flag issues so they don't feel as though they're gonna be considered a troublemaker for letting us know we don't want that environment. That's all I think.

Emma Waddingham, Host 29:29

And credit to you for people responding to those surveys, because that's half the battle as well, is getting people to kind of feedback and and be honest and open up, even anonymously, having that to put that time aside to feedback.

Clive Thomas 29:41

Yeah, and I think though if they can see they're being listened to and changes are made as a consequence, they're more likely then to engage in future surveys and getting involved in focus groups to see that they're making a difference.

Emma Waddingham, Host 29:52

Of course, yeah, absolutely. Um, so what into let's talk about impact and measurement. So, how do you measure the success then of the well-being strategy? Obviously, there's a feeling, isn't there, and a vibe across the culture and things being seen to be delivered. Um, but how how do you do that? How do you measure effectively, and particularly in light of this well-being charter as well, which probably requires you to be a bit more um, you know, uh self-assessment have a self-assessment to some degree?

Clive Thomas 30:20

Yeah, it is difficult, isn't it, to measure sort of emotional impact of things and that how things are taking it along. Um, the Great Place to Work thing has been useful, quite as being a part of that accreditation, because we've got a baseline going back a number of years now on that survey, and we can see every year then how it's changed against the various questions. That's quite useful uh yardstock against which we can measure ourselves and against an average across uh all different types of firms across the country. So you can see where you land and where you were against yourself last year. So that's good. The pulse surveys I mentioned are very useful as a baseline, but also things like retention. Yeah. Um and uh if you are losing someone, making sure you do have that interview with them before they go to find out what the issues were, why did they come to leave might just be a natural thing that they were moving on to bigger and better things, or it but it could be an issue. And people pretend to be a little more honest, don't they, in the uh leaving interviews than they might be whilst they're with you. So that's important, and taking that on board rather than sitting around the carpet and make them thinking about those sorts of things. But so, yeah, retention and making sure you're a place that uh people want to stay and build their career rather than being a stepping stone to other things. That's really important, isn't it? And I think uh more and more these days, isn't it? Because you're never going to win a straight battle on salaries, are you, for staff? Um the benefits and the culture are hugely important, I think, in terms of retaining and attracting uh the best talent for the business.

Emma Waddingham, Host 31:44

Exactly. We we had a uh a recruitment um round table recently, and you know, a number of times it was offered that it is about salary, that's why people move. But a lot of the firms said, well, yeah, okay, yes, to a degree, but why do they stay? So, you know, you can offer them all the money in the world, but actually, if it doesn't work out culturally, they're not gonna stay for that amount of money either. We saw that during COVID when individuals were going to Bristol, perhaps a lot of commercial work, um, a bit more money, and then deciding it wasn't it, it just they couldn't do it, or whether that was travel or other reasons. And I think, you know, it's easy to say it's always about money, but it's that's it's that retention issue, isn't it? Like why why do people why do people stay within a firm? And it can't always be about a huge part of money. Um, you know, and that's so hyper, and you have to be hyper-resilient in in the legal sector, I get that, but we're human.

Clive Thomas 32:35

I think you've got to look at also the your sort of client scoring too from your client reviews, because that can often reflect an issue. Because if if you're finding a scoring low there, it could well be that there's an issue within the firm that people aren't engaged and they of they aren't sort of uh giving it their best effort for whatever reason. You haven't got the happy staff that we call the happy clients, you know. So again, that's another measure, isn't it? Yeah. Uh potentially to uh to spot if it's going really well, then that's a good sign, isn't it? That uh the the uh your team are enjoying their work and uh that stuff uh it comes through, I think, in the work that they do and how they look after their clients.

Emma Waddingham, Host 33:08

100%. Absolutely. Thank you. Um, is there anything that you think we could do better at this? Are we planning on kind of tweaking or improving, particularly maybe that measuring that impact um across the firm? What are the plans for the year ahead, Katie?

Measuring Impact: Data, Retention, Clients

Katie O’Connell 33:23

So we're due to have a meeting actually. Fresh start, January. Um, but I think it's just not losing sight of what we're trying to do and not not becoming overwhelmed with too many sort of things that perhaps may come across as tick-box exercise as opposed to having a meaningful impact. Um and so talking about um, you know, how do we know it's working and measuring success? I always think from a wellness and point of view, is people's willingness to engage with me and to engage with the things that we're putting on as well. And so if usually I will know if something's gone well because I'll have a big there'll be a big engagement and be a lot of positive feedback and things like that. But I know if I also can tell if it's perhaps not something that struck a chord with with many people. Um, and I think it's about again going back and listening to what what our team members are saying and then actually acting on on that. So my plan is to and with Wellness and Gun and the rest of the team is to is to hopefully have some loose plans in place of what we're gonna do in terms of structure. So we've got um, I know Emma's very involved, um, previously we used to have Monday motivators, but they've now moved to monthly um well-being topics that we'll try and cover and try and cover the various days that will fall within them. So, for example, we recently had self-care week and things like that. So we'll continue to do that, but also not to be afraid then to tackle the more thorny um issues as well. So that's that's the plan moving forward to keep doing what we're doing, but to keep listening and to keep acting on what people want to want.

Emma Waddingham, Host 35:04

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And um, just quickly before I ask Clive the same question, uh do you um do you find as well that because of the culture you've created, that people are happy to share a bit more of their own lived experience and then uh help inform others around that? Obviously, you've mentioned Lisa. Um, is that something that you do as part, you know, have you found that that people are quite happy to come forward and share that?

Katie O’Connell 35:27

Yes, absolutely. And and I think as well as recognising that some I think it does definitely encourage that, but also we've got outlets where if somebody doesn't feel able to do that, who doesn't who doesn't want to necessarily talk about what's going on? Um so one of the things that we sort of um put in place, I think it was last year, um, was that you um can email your team leader and say, look, I got things going on, I don't want to talk about it, um, but I'm fine, basically. So that they know you're not quite yourself, but at the same time, you don't necessarily want to talk about it because not everybody's the same and you don't want to engage. Um, and also we've got the employee um support programme outside to the call line that you can um you can call. So again, it's not necessarily somebody within the firm um that you can speak to, but it's reminding staff members and team members of what of what there is to support them because it's easy to forget and it's simple things like even in the toilets, we've got um the details of um who they can contact if they need uh to speak to somebody about their mental health or or any other issue that they've got. Um just constant reminders that there are these things there without without becoming overbearing. Absolutely.

Emma Waddingham, Host 36:44

Yeah, I know I'm I'm that I'm that person. I probably just in the middle of a storm just plow through and then at the end of it, I'm more happy to talk about it. We're all different, aren't we? It's almost kind of keeping that steady ship for me. And I know others are we we all kind of deal with it in different ways. Um, Clive, what what about you? What are you looking to see more of this year or um or are excited about or would like to see more of in terms of how you measure things as well?

Clive Thomas 37:10

Uh we've got a survey at the moment where we're sort of focusing on looking at fairness within the firm to see uh, because as we as we look at uh hybrid working, flexibility, that sort of thing, you want to make sure that there's a feeling of fairness throughout the firm between, say, uh those who are fearlers or lawyers and uh those who are support workers, you know, within that uh same structure to make sure everyone feels they've got a fair crack of the floor.

Emma Waddingham, Host 37:31

One of those thorny issues that you mentioned, yeah. Yeah.

Clive Thomas 37:34

That's it. So that's something we want to focus on and make sure uh that we uh bring out. Because what we say is if we don't know there's an issue, we can't fix it. So I'm quite keen to look at that and then look at perhaps uh other ways to uh bring even more flexibility uh into what we do. We want to make sure that uh it's you know with within the sort of uh uh business need structure that there's as much flexibility as we can probably provide to get a real uh workplace you can be proud of. For example, some we brought in a couple of years ago that that's uh remains popular is that we we said, well, nobody should miss their child's concert at Christmas. So you're gonna have time off at Christmas, if you need it, to uh go to see your child in a concert or or or call it shopping hours if you don't have children or grandchildren. Yeah, you can do that, don't miss it, sort of thing. Just to make sure you uh you have those memorable moments. Same over Christmas, we close every Christmas, we don't take that or their annual entitlement. We say again, it's moments that people should have that they can cherish, isn't it? Then come back supercharged, that's ready to ready for the new year, which I hope they are now for the year ahead and feel that way with the weather as is, does it?

Plans, Fairness And Flexible Working

Emma Waddingham, Host 38:39

No, it doesn't. We still feel on a slow start, unfortunately. Yeah. Oh, and that's it. And you know, it's about being about being open to those ideas. Uh, you know, that I think and interestingly, of course, it hasn't talked about having a knock-on effect on the business case. Identifying those areas where people might be able to live more flex work more flexibly. What then okay, so what do we need for that when you're looking at your tech piece then? What is the solution we need because this is the problem? And it just it's it that that strategy knocks into so many other areas, doesn't it?

Clive Thomas 39:12

Yeah, absolutely. That that is right. So we've got a tech task force we set up to look at this sort of five-year journey around tech, and uh it'll be very important, I think, in and around hybrid and flexible working, won't it? Our best use of tech and AI going forwards for sure. Yeah, thank you.

Emma Waddingham, Host 39:30

Um, so coming on to uh we talked a little bit about kind of um some of the initiatives. Um and I just wondered um, you talked about imposter syndrome as part of your actually, sorry, I'm gonna start that again. I think we've probably covered enough of the things. I don't think it'll flow very well. Right, I'm gonna go on to looking ahead. So looking, we've talked a little bit about what's to come um in 2026. Um, where would you advise other because it would there is a danger if you doesn't matter what social media platform you look on or any professional out there, even on LinkedIn, you know, everyone's talking about what they do, what they would advise, all the different, it's quite overwhelming. What would you do to advise firms who feel maybe we're too initiative focused, we don't seem to have quite got this ingrained in our across our culture, we've we worry that people aren't coming forward, you know, even in those surveys, those touch points. Where would you advise them to start if their well-being programs aren't gaining traction?

Clive Thomas 40:29

Yeah, I think there is a danger of trying to do everything all at once, isn't there? So it's um it's a flurry of different things rather than any focus. But you do have to go back to uh uh trying to use it strategically. And I think that well-being charter is a good thing to hang hang a hook on. But obviously, not imposing anything, it's got to come from within. So that idea of uh really getting under the bonnet of your team and uh finding out quite what the issues are in the first instance. I think it's your starting point, isn't it? And perhaps focus groups, and then you're on to sort of uh looking at what you could set up between you so that it all comes from within. So I think that's probably where you'd begin. I think if you just try and uh chat loads of initiatives on the top without really finding out what the issues are within your firm's different firm, then I think uh it's doomed just to be sort of uh fairly fluffy and and very peripheral rather than integral to the way you run your business.

Katie O’Connell 41:22

Yeah, absolutely. I think as well, you know, obviously we've got our first values, so stands for forward thinking, inclusive, responsible, supportive, and trust. And so that's the basis that we're always going back to. Um so you've got to have that strong foundation where everybody's on the same page before you can start bringing in other things because people are just gonna think, Well, well, what's this now? I I'm not gonna read this email, or you know, they want to know it wants it needs to be meaningful. I think that's the the key message.

Emma Waddingham, Host 41:51

And that's really knowing yourselves. And Clyde, you can't see this uh obviously on the podcast, but Clyde's pointing behind him to a series of images that represent those core values. And I know a lot of work has gone into you know, the strategy of the firm, the culture of the firm, what you represent and how you look at yourself both internally and and and how you want clients to perceive you and work with you. And and that is such a core foundation that often gets overlooked in the day-to-day, you know, how many kind of business brand vision and um strategic plans get shelved, those Lexel moments put away for a year and not kind of looked at and embedded. And I think firms are and another photo I'm just seeing in the background now, you know, is a is a is a talking, a visual um animated, um, you know, your your brand story kind of animated. And and and and that can that makes it come to life. I know they're in all the firms, but it's so important to keep going back to that and dedicating time. I know a lot more firms are to try and discover where their point of difference is, not only to their clients, but also to recruits and to the individuals that were the already work in the firm. Um, and I think that that is bringing the sector to life in Wales a lot more. Um, and congratulations for obviously being that um the winner last year, but but but for showing the way and ticking off so many parts of that criteria, and as I say, especially for um Elizabeth's comments of you know proving that in your strategy and evidencing it, it's um a fantastic foundation, or more than a foundation, I know, for you, um, which is great. Thank you very, very much. So, Clive, obviously, talking the general theme of the conversation here is that well-being is absolutely fundamental to success in the business of law and in other aspects as well. Um, what how you've got five uh sub brands, um, obviously wellness and gun. Quick question about things like funding and time and resource. Do you feel, does it, you know, from a director's point of view, you know, is this an expensive endeavor? Is well being a more of a time, like how you know, how do people kind of how do you kind of juggle that as a firm?

Costs, Resourcing And Embedding Change

Clive Thomas 43:57

Difficult to measure, really, isn't it? Because it's um I think uh we never really probably should have, but we haven't really ever sort of thought out each each uh given each of them uh a particular pot of money for the year. It's just something that's sort of evolved and happens. You know, as in what you're gonna take part in, it w who you want to do what sort of thing, and then then flowing with it if you know what I mean. If they've got a good idea, we're we're likely to support it. It tends to be nothing costs the earth, it tends to be more uh people's time and their sort of uh um their uh grey matter, uh putting their mind to it really and things that might um improve things for everyone. So no, I don't think it's a great it's a great costly endeavour. Uh I think it's it it's more just um finding the time to do it because we're all busy people, aren't we? We're busy in business, it's easy to park it, isn't it? And uh get caught up in your day-to-day. It's sort of uh that's the good thing about spreading the load and by having different people in charge of the different subgroups. If it was all director-led, you know, the or I was too busy, I didn't do it this week, this month, I'll try and do it next month. But in fact, when we spread it out, I think that that gives it much more chance of success. And I'm I'm surprised sometimes we get an email. Oh, I didn't know we were doing that, you know. So I think it's quite nice that something you started way back when is then surprising you some years later that and uh you can see other people are hugely invested in it and they're doing these things, you know. So that that's a good sign, isn't it, that it's embedded and the culture's in there, you know. And you get things, yeah.

Emma Waddingham, Host 45:18

Yeah, a hundred percent. Oh look, thank thank you all so much for sharing and being so honest and offering those practical insights about creating a strategic approach to well-being um and resilience and how that's shaped Watkins and Gunn. Um, I hope that's inspired our listeners um and enabled, you know, hopefully to ask more questions about how to embed well-being across your own firms. Um, obviously, we wholeheartedly encourage firms to engage with LawCare, uh, the details of which are linked in the podcast information, and it's also on Legal News Wales. Um, LawCare, as I say, provides free support for any legal team. So, from law firms, the barrister's chambers, in-house teams, uh, to help employers support their people. And there's so many resources out there, as you mentioned, Katie, many of those you share within the firm, um, and as well as providing free support for any employee uh in the legal profession um in England and Wales. And thank you all so much for joining me today. I really appreciate it.

Clive Thomas 46:14

And congratulations again, yeah. Thanks for all you do with uh for the profession through Legal News Wales and congratulations on the awards. They were excellent on founding the Legal News Wales Awards. It was a really wonderful evening.

Sector Advice And Closing Calls

Emma Waddingham, Host 46:26

Oh, thank you. Thank you very much. Well excited. So uh the awards are now open for entry for 2026, which is really exciting. We've added a few more strategies, um uh we've added a few more categories in, including Rising Star, Emma, um, of the year. So lots more to come. So have a look at the legal newsworse awards um.com for more information. And the deadline for entries is the 2nd of March 2026. Um, if you'd enjoyed this episode, don't forget to subscribe and share it with your colleagues to help shape strategy, people and culture in your firm. And join us next time for more stories across Wales's legal profession and how resilience is being redefined. Thank you for listening to the Legal Sector Resilience Podcast brought to you by Legal News Wales. If you found this conversation useful, please subscribe and share it with your colleagues. There's lots of episodes to follow and go back into. And you can also join our insights and events community at legalnewswales.com for more resources to help you build a resilient, future focused legal practice.