48. Dr Laszlo Boros: Critical link between dietary Deuterium, Visceral Fat and Metabolic Diseases

Dr Lazslo Boros joins me for a deep dive into the role of deuterium in causing metabolic disease and the deposition of visceral fat. We go down to the level of the mitochondrion and learn exactly how foods enriched in deuterium, such as processed carbs and seed oils, contribute to metabolic dysfunction by wrecking the ATPase nanomotors in the inner mitochondrial matrix.

Dr Boros former professor of paediatrics at UCLA, research scientist and world expert on deutonomics. Deutonomics refers to the study of deuterium,  heavy isotope of hydrogen, and how it interacts with biological systems.

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TIMESTAMPS
0:00:06 Metabolic Disease and Deuteronomics
0:10:50 Deuterium's Role in Energy Production
0:25:55 Deuterium Depletion in Biochemical Reactions
0:40:01 Relationship Between Deuterium and Metabolic Health
0:45:21 Understanding Metabolic Dysfunction and Ketosis
0:57:21 Understanding Mitochondrial Dysfunction and Metabolic Disorders
01:12:09 MRI Identifies Deuterium in Tissues
01:25:53 The Harmful Effects of Seed Oils
01:34:12 Deuterium Content and Dietary Choices
01:41:03 Promoting Ethical and Deuterium-Depleted Diets
01:50:53 Food Deuterium and Disease Processes

Links
Paper on grain vs grassfeeding animals: What to feed or what not to feed-that is still the question https://www.researchgate.net/publication/356416900_What_to_feed_or_what_not_to_feed-that_is_still_the_question

Follow DR BOROS

Research profile: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Laszlo-Boros-2

Website: https://www.laszlogboros.com/

Various lectures: https://www.laszlogboros.com/lectures

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Transcript

Dr Max Gulhane: 3:40

Today I am speaking with Dr Laszlo Boros. He is a former professor of pediatrics at UCLA, a research scientist and world expert on deuteronomics. Deuteronomics refers to the study of deuterium, the heavy isotope of hydrogen, and how it interacts with biological systems. This is an almost two-hour technical interview in which we delve deeply into the role of deuterium in causing metabolic disease and the deposition of visceral fat. Dr Boros takes us down to the level of the mitochondrion and explains exactly how foods enriched in deuterium, such as processed carbs and seed oils, contribute to metabolic dysfunction by wrecking the ATPase nanomotors in the inner mitochondrial membrane. While we talk a lot about mechanisms, we also discuss some practical steps, so you will also find out why fully grass-fed beef fat is the optimal human energy source. This is a topic that I continue to learn more about, but, based on the information that Dr Boros and previous guests, dr Jakruz and Sarah Pugh have presented, it makes a very strong case that metabolic disease is a problem of excess deuterium. Carnivore, low carb and seasonal ancestral diet are effective in reversing obesity, insulin resistance, diabetes and all these metabolic diseases, precisely because they are low deuterium diets. So let me know what you think about this and hope you enjoyed the show.

Dr Max Gulhane: 5:07

Dr Lazlo Boros. Thank you for coming on the podcast. Thank you very much for inviting.

Dr Max Gulhane: 5:12

So I am a family medicine doctor and I am interested, amongst other things, in how we can prevent metabolic diseases like obesity, like type 2 diabetes, fatty liver, all these kind of things. And your research and your perspectives using deuterium are fascinating because I think it can offer us a lot in terms of insight into these problems. But, maybe because this is such a niche topic and it is sometimes quite technical, I think it's worth starting from the very beginning and in terms of explaining people what deuterium is, before we even go down the rabbit hole of clinical implications.

Dr Laszlo Boros: 5:54

Sure, thank you again. So deuterium is practically the SUV in your driveway or in your garage where you can fit your passenger car any longer. So it's a hydrogen. And that's the beginning of this whole story. Carbon and oxygen make up the living organisms as the most common atoms or elements. Hydrogen is the smallest of all and it helps to transfer energy and also provide chemical bonds between oxygen and hydrogen and nitrogen and sulfur and so on. But the most common ones are carbon, oxygen and hydrogen, and hydrogen is the ping-pong bar that oxygen and carbon is playing a ping-pong game. In the meantime, obviously, photosynthesis and biological oxidation are connected to hydrogen itself and practically deuterium is the heavy or the large medicine bar in the baseball game, in the sense that so practically it's a heavy hydrogen, hydrogen. The nucleus of hydrogen is a proton, is made up by a proton and there's an electron spinning around it, and the deuterons or deuterium, is a proton and a neutron and an electron, meaning that the nucleus of the deuteron is twice as heavy and twice as large as the proton and chemically behaves different, meaning that in chemical bonds it requires 8 to 15 times more energy to remove that where hydrogen would be placed.

Dr Laszlo Boros: 7:39

If it's replaced by deuterium, then the chemical behavior of the molecule is dramatically different, involving metabolism and so on.

Dr Laszlo Boros: 7:50

More importantly, deuterium can get into mitochondria and ATP synthase nanomotors, where they actually behave like a boy in a china store or elephant in a china store.

Dr Laszlo Boros: 8:04

Practically they break these very delicate moving proteins and nanomotors and, for that matter, there are going to be a lack of T-C cycle or Krebs-Sendier-D-Cycle metabolism, meaning that there's going to be a molecular or metabolic crowding and, because the lack of proper mitochondrial function to burn fuel completely, there is going to be a buildup of various organic molecules, including fatty acids, glucose and so on, and metabolic diseases develop and, based on the specific tissue presentation, human diseases develop depending on what kind of metabolic and how severe the metabolic defect is or how damaged the mitochondria are and their nanomotors because of deuterium effect, which is again twice as heavy and twice as large.

Dr Laszlo Boros: 9:10

When we look at its nucleus, then hydrogen is, and hydrogen is the most common element in our system, in our body, and it works and it performs most of the work as far as energy transfers and structural chemical bonds. And replacing hydrogen with deuterium has major effects on protein structure, protein movements and so on and the activity of metabolic enzymes and the result of all of these, we develop various diseases, disease processes that you have to handle in your family practice.

Dr Max Gulhane: 9:47

Yeah, thanks for that explanation and just to zoom out and really keep a big picture before we delve into the weeds the mitochondria for those who are listening are these little organelles inside almost all your cells that are the sites of energy production in the cell. And what Dr Lazer was talking about is that these mitochondria take energy inputs in the form of food and they also receive the cytochromes, or can also receive a light frequencies, and they tunnel electrons from the food and use it to pump these hydrogens against a gradient. So imagine pumping water uphill and then at that fifth, the fifth cytochrome of that electron transport chain. They're supposed to flow down this gradient like the water, supposed to flow down a hill and run through this nanomotor and then allow us to make ATP from ADP. But what Dr Borosz just explained to you is that if we use this heavy isotope of hydrogen instead of H+, if we use a deuterium, then that basically wrecks the ability of that nanomotor to spin efficiently.

Dr Max Gulhane: 10:59

And I talked to Dr Stephanie Senef andI like to. Someone used the analogy of a fat kid going down a slippery slide at a water park and kind of getting stuck in the middle. But it's really more than that because, as you've talked about it, it's not only blocking the nanomotor from spinning and therefore preventing us from operating efficiently, but it's actually destroying the ATPase. Is that correct?

Dr Laszlo Boros: 11:25

That's right. And it's not only a destruction but it's also a permanent chemical bond of these proton spinning amino acids. That means it's irreparable as far as the damage is delivered. And once these nanomotors stop functioning, we cannot transfer protons from carbons to oxygen. And if that occurs, then our cellular level energy production system is diminished practically and those cells become a target of apoptosis, or information for that matter, and those cells, because of cytochrome C, which is part of the electron transport chain, signal for self destruction. Simply, that's what the organ disease or organ damage and chronic disease would actually line up. There's practically dying cells replaced by fibrotic tissue or inflammatory tissues and so on. And because of the lack of organ function or the lack of your cellular functions that have these organs to perform certain functions that could be transport of certain metabolites, it could be storage of certain organic materials, fatty acids, glucose, glycogen and so on, these cells are missing their functions, these cells are replaced by fibrotic or inflammatory tissues and then organ damage sets in and chronic diseases develop practically.

Dr Max Gulhane: 13:03

Yes, and I really like that framing because it gives us a framework of understanding how things going wrong at the basically sub molecular level can end up manifesting as a disease in the entire organism.

Dr Max Gulhane: 13:16

And I think it's a great place to make a quick mention of Dr Doug Wallace and he's basically theory of the mitochondrial bio-energetic etiology of disease, which is exactly what you're talking about. And Dr Doug Wallace has made the point that the mitochondrial dysfunction, when that happens, when the mitochondria start failing, the energy output of the cell obviously fails the cell's ability to do its job, whether that's contract as a cardiomyocyte, whether that's to make insulin as a pancreatic beta cell, whether that's to transmit a signal as a neuron in the brain. That fails when the mitochondria inside the cell start failing. So it's interesting because when that mitochondrial efficiency drops, then things like DNA repair, the mitochondrial DNA repair, all these processes start impeding and then you get this kind of feedback or this process, this cycle that leads to that leads to apoptosis and basically failure of the cell. Are you familiar with Dr Wallace's work? Are you up to speed with that?

Dr Laszlo Boros: 14:20

I did hear about many of these efforts. The new way of looking at energy production in mitochondria is not only ATP synthesis. The deuteronomics or the study of deuterium in mitochondria is changing every day, simply because there's so much data and information coming in. And right now what we are working on is extending the energy production scenarios in mitochondria, not only looking at ATP, but the actual formation of metabolic water, which is how oxygen and hydrogen come together after these nanomotors are power. Now protons are necessary for water formation from food and the result of this is 280 kJ per mole energy in the form of heat when metabolic water is forming the mitochondria. In the meantime, there is an additional 20 to 30 kJ per mole energy producing the form of ATP-ATP synthesis.

Dr Laszlo Boros: 15:29

But practically the majority of heat energy that is produced in mitochondria is because of the electron transport chain activating oxygen and the proton that falls into the mitochondrial matrix after powering these nanomotors, and this is what we call the explosive gas when oxygen and hydrogen joins together.

Dr Laszlo Boros: 15:51

But it's very controlled and very precisely controlled in the mitochondrial matrix to the electron transport chain and those proteins or cytochrome enzymes. Practically it's a very delicate, controlled, highly energy yielding process by producing metabolic water and also by producing ATP in the process. And they all depend on these smooth work of these nanomotors, because those are the ones that are able to transfer from the inter membrane space of the mitochondria, the protons, into the mitochondrial matrix. The metabolic water is formed and in the meantime that the Crap San Diode cycle is absorbing or recycling this metabolic water to fumarate hydrates and citrate synthesis and so on. So it's practically physics connected with biochemistry tunneling, which means that one of the nuclear atomic events linked with biochemical reactions. So it practically covers all that is related to what we know quantum physics and electromagnetic radiation and biochemistry. And this is why so many people work together on these scenarios, simply because these include and involve all major parts of physics and biology, as you know.

Dr Max Gulhane: 17:21

Yeah, and for the listeners who have followed my work up till now, we explored these concepts in the first instance with my series with Dr Jack Cruz and essentially how he described what is going on in the mitochondria are oxidative phosphorylation is the opposite of photosynthesis and this idea that you know it's like a spider on a mirror doing push-ups it's this process, that what's happening in the mitochondria is just a reversal of the photosynthetic process, and the output of what we've described is obviously ATP, but it's more than that. It's carbon dioxide and it's this metabolic water, and the unique idea of the metabolic water is that it's deuterium, depleted. I think that is the key point and summarizing what we've talked about in the first set.

Dr Laszlo Boros: 18:06

It's important matter.

Dr Max Gulhane: 18:08

Deuterium free. Yeah, it's got no deuterium in it.

Dr Laszlo Boros: 18:12

What we desire is that the outside is 155 ppm and the most inner part of your cells are deuterium free and the gradient goes in and between through various filtering biochemical mechanisms. And this is what practically biology or medicine should be, as far as understanding very basic principles and concepts in energy production for that matter. But we prefer the least amount of deuterium in mitochondria to prevent diseases, disease processes.

Dr Max Gulhane: 18:46

Yeah, and it's interesting because I guess we previewed in the first 10 minutes. The biology has evolved very, very specifically to preclude deuterium from the whole process of energy generation. I think that's the point that you've made so far. If people can understand that concept is that for the cell to operate optimally, we don't want this heavy hydrogen in the whole process. And whether we use the analogy of the SUV trying to fit into a small garage, whether we use the analogy of the eight ball I heard you use that analogy there the Q ball, the big eight ball that doesn't fit down the hole, whatever analogy you want to use, and I think the key takeaway point for the first part of this interview is that biology doesn't like deuterium. And even though deuterium is present naturally in 155 parts per million in the ocean and in the environment, there's been specific reasons why we have evolved to not have deuterium inside the, in a mitochondrial matrix.

Dr Laszlo Boros: 19:50

That's right and we need to consider deuterium as a structural element. So some structural proteins like collagen, proline deuterated prolines are very important for animals that live in harsh conditions, under harsh conditions in environments. So in structural proteins and this is why we now talk about the regulation of deuterium Deuterium has no place in moving proteins, energy production or enzyme reactions and so on, especially when tunneling comes into the picture. Now, in structural proteins, in very small amounts, in certain amino acids, deuterium is a very important stabilizing element and, for that matter, it can be high, as high as as a 315 parts per million in cell collagen, simply because those animals have to dive and come up at very high speed and they have to escape from predators and so on. So their structural element, their skeletal elements and their collagen have to be modified chemically to these demands. So now we actually use energy production, covering mitochondrial and proxysomal metabolism and how they interrelate to one another.

Dr Laszlo Boros: 21:18

That's a new aspect of deuterium research and we may cover this in this conversation, based on how deep you want to dig in to this process. And for the structural elements of our body, we need to regulate deuterium according to the need of how stable and how structurally durable those elements need to be. So we are looking at in biological samples from zero parts per million deuterium, which is the mitochondrial matrix, up to 315 parts per million, which is the collagen proline of under challenging living conditions and environment. So in between there's this human deuteronomics project where we actually use these various wide range deuterium distributions to explain phenotype and to explain disease processes, because what we believe is human disease is a tissue specific presentation of a deuterium overload or a deuterium dysregulation process.

Dr Max Gulhane: 22:35

Yeah, and if we think about the two major causes of human chronic diseases, it's neurodegeneration, like dementia and Parkinson's disease, and cardiovascular disease. So heart failure, atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease, and I don't think it's no surprise or it makes sense, because these two tissues are some of the most mitochondrial rich tissues in the organs in the body and the heart, having between three and five thousand mitochondria in every cardiomyosite. It makes sense that if we're getting failure of mitochondria in those organs then that in a long enough time frame is going to manifest as disease. I want you to just talk a couple more instances of the physiological role of deuterium in the body. So we've already established that it can't be in moving parts in energy generation inside the mitochondria, but it might be useful and it is useful in structural components like collagen. Is there an in between here where the body is also using deuterium physiologically?

Dr Laszlo Boros: 23:44

Well, it depends on the species and the challenging conditions. And this is actually a paper from the Collinska Institute by Dr Roman Zubarev, who measured deuterium in seal and pellet green falcons and swan collagen and he found a huge variation based on how challenging these animals live their everyday lives. The swan, which just kind of swims around the lakes and eats some plants they have 155 ppm in their collagen. Obviously their life is not very demanding or challenging compared to seals and pellet green falcons. The pellet green falcons, they come down at 300-400 km per hour and they have to slow down using their wings in the last 40-50 meters of their of their diet, so that actually puts their wings under extreme friction forces and so on. So they have to develop a collagen, a protein that actually helps their bone structure to do to deal with this very demanding frictional force. To be able to do that it takes deuterium up to the range of 300 parts per million.

Dr Laszlo Boros: 25:10

In the meantime these animals, because they fly so fast and they have to climb so fast to do before these dives, their muscles have to be deuterium free, for that matter, than animal rules, meaning that their glycolysis is controlling food-based deuterium to get into metabolic or cytoplasmic water through isomerase reactions these are actually glycolysis related enzyme reactions where actually deuterium discrimination effect and this discriminated deuterium can be loaded in some other parts of the body or biochemical reactions, for example protein synthesis and hydroxy protein synthesis, which will make these collagen proteins and it's unique to this protein structural protein, and cancer cells like to use this hydro deuterium protein as well.

Dr Laszlo Boros: 26:07

So this is why the cancer, the malignant tissue's trauma is when you touch it. You probably in medical school you had to rotate in surgery oncological, surgical, surgical surgical units and you can actually tell by touching tumors that they are almost like bone or cartilage type tissues and that's because they accumulate deuterium in their stroma and in their structural proteins. So it seems that knowing deuterium or being aware of how deuterium is distributed among species and also in tissues, you can actually describe a very critical biological behavior type of situations and you can argue based on deuterium content, what to expect from that particular tissue, how to operate in our body.

Dr Max Gulhane: 27:04

That's a fascinating point. I want to just make two quick points. One is that the body is if you look at the TCA cycle and for anyone who's taken chemistry, whether that was in school or in university, there's a long list of enzymatic steps that are involved in the whole process, and it seems to me, and what you've talked about in your lectures, is that the reason for those steps is because the body is selecting for proteam over deuterium in terms of those enzymatic reactions. So is that the chief reason why there are so many enzymatic steps? Is it solely to select against deuterium in the mitochondria?

Dr Laszlo Boros: 27:50

That's correct. I actually gave talks about this at UCL back in 2017 and 2018, talking about glycolysis being a deuterium scavenging mechanism, a deuterium sorting mechanism through water exchange reactions and proton exchange reactions from cytoplasmic water, which should be diluted by matrix water to be low in deuterium so you can actually exchange deuterium between compartments of your cells. And that's right. Glucose, for example, has 12 hydrogens and glycolysis have 10 reactions and one of those reactions in a lace takes a whole water molecule out of glucose. So practically what glycolysis does? It checks every hydrogen in a glucose molecule and replaces it with cytoplasmic waters protons to make sure that there is no deuterium can actually enter the mitochondria as using glucose as a trojan horse. So practically it's a disassembly of the trojan horse to see what's inside and then reassembling it to take it to the mitochondria. And the mitochondria is hydrating the precursors, which is pyruvate and acetylcoenzyme A, and it adds metabolic water through citrate synthase, through aconitase and through fumarate hydratase as the water consuming reactions. But in reality every 99.9% of every enzyme reaction in our body uses water as the chemical solvent or water protons to perform that particular reaction. So every reaction in glycolysis and every reaction, nine reactions of the crepseniodicycle or the TCA cycle, use water for that matter. So water deuterium content and water deplete it.

Dr Laszlo Boros: 30:03

Deuterium deplete a water in chemical reactions is a key for those reactions to operate. So even though the molecule itself does not have or not necessarily deuterated, if the water of our system is deteriorated then those reactions also again slow down. So deuterium goes far farther than we would expect. Just simply looking at exchange reactions, it is actually kind of the medium or the chemical solvent water, and that's why our body is made up of so much water, because we have to provide a solvent base for all these chemical reactions, biochemical reactions. And if those are not in a deuterium or low deuterium environment depleted or low deuterium environment or deuterium free environment, if we talk about the matrix those can cause chronic diseases and they can actually, if it's food based, the deuterium overload, then it can actually cause epidemics of chronic diseases in populations that consume the kind of the bad food or diet.

Dr Max Gulhane: 31:20

Yes and I use this analogy with Dr Senef is the fascinating way that the body has evolved this checking process which you've just described. It's almost like you're burning a furnace with timber, but you've evolved this intricate inspection process of the logs and unless the log is perfect, the body is going to discard that and it's not going to allow that log to go down and get burnt in the furnace because it's that important to the function of the factory which is the mitochondria. That mitochondrion is that those logs are just the right thing. If it's got a branch sticking out the wrong way which is an analogy for deuterium then it's like no, sorry, we don't want that. It's a great point, sorry, go on.

Dr Laszlo Boros: 32:04

And this is very important from the tunneling point of view, because in our system everything happens by tunnel, meaning that those very tight enzymatic reaction compartments, they only can achieve chemical reaction to occur at especially such speed if actually those protons are pushed around physically by other protons and if there's a deuterium in between, if there's a log that stands out in different, like as is supposed to, it can actually stop the whole process.

Dr Max Gulhane: 32:36

Yeah, and that's a great place to talk about fats, because glycolysis is a process of checking these carbohydrates for deuterons. But what is unique about the fatty acid molecules that make them problematic for this process?

Dr Laszlo Boros: 32:52

Fatty acids are produced from citric acid, which are formed in mitochondria, so they are low in duty. That's why fatty acids don't have to go through glycolysis, because our cells expect fatty acids to be low in deuterium, so for oxidation they are appropriate, meaning that they can be taken into the mitochondria, into the cell, and into the mitochondria to this carnitane transport proteins without checking every proton or hydrogen in those molecules, if those are deuterium or not, or you don't have to replace them with your metabolic waters. Low deuterium protons, so practically fatty acids. Because nature or the creator, I like to use both to kind of help everybody to imagine how this system work practically. They it's designed, or these reactions are designed to kind of work with a very efficient, very effective deuterium depleting mechanism when it's necessary. Yet if there's a perfect fuel, for that matter it's animal based, grass-fed, carnivore style, animal saturated long chain fatty acid which is very low in deuterium, in the range of 110 ppm compared to 155 of glucose. That's safe to use for both proxysomes and mitochondria and for that matter, your body has very quick access to those because those don't have to be checked. They are actually in the 100 meter sprint run, they just run. There are no blockages or there's no gaze that they have to hump over, and this is why those are very efficient fuels.

Dr Laszlo Boros: 34:45

Saturated animal fat, grass-fed animal fat, is so efficient fuel for our cells and for our mitochondria because those are low in deuterium and your cells are able to scavenge that smaller amount of deuterium using the ureocycle, using various water exchange reactions in the mitochondrial, in the TCSAC and so on. So our biochemistry is designed based on deuterium intake and deuterium scavenging and also efficiency based on oxygen availability and oxygen transport. So practically it's a stoichiometric method simply just to deal with the right, appropriate balance of these systems and mechanisms that include food, water or nutrients that we take in oxygen availability and mitochondrial processes to actually burn and make these exchange reactions, atomic reactions, efficient without the participation of deuterium itself. So it's practically the key to health to understand these processes and it's the key to manage chronic disease epidemics and so on and to treat patients individually using natural patek or natural approaches that actually limit the deuterium intake through the appropriate food incorporation.

Dr Max Gulhane: 36:19

Yeah, and I'm glad you brought up the grass-fed meat and fat and we'll actually talk about that a bit later. I'll just make a quick flag and seed oils which are polyunsaturated fatty acids rich in fatty acids, like linoleic acid. Are they deuterium enriched?

Dr Laszlo Boros: 36:40

At unsaturated bonds. They are very low in deuterium based on where they are from. If they are actually natural or industrial source, they could have very different variations or very different levels of deuterium. If those are plant-based and seed oil and those are not industrial, gmo or fertilizer or glyphosate treated plants, naturally those could be for certain species. Those could be not for humans, but for certain species those could be useful substrates.

Dr Laszlo Boros: 37:18

Their microbiome have to be adopted to the food that they consume. It can be even fruit-based in certain birds. That's when they have a very high turnover of microbiome, for that matter. But let's say this way they poop a lot. But practically as far as humans are concerned, we are designed to eat animal fat, saturated long chain fatty acids, preferentially coming from bone marrow. This is what we believe. The prehistoric men anthropologically started consuming brain and bone marrow of animals, carcasses that were left behind by predators, because they had tools to break through the bony skeletal structures. Our species or our societies, going back to caveman's time, prehistoric time, were all dependent on this saturated loaded-tium animal-based, grass-fed fat source. This is how mitochondria adopted to the food and environment. But prehistoric men lived in and the cavemen lived in.

Dr Laszlo Boros: 38:49

It's only since the industrial agricultural processes set in is when chronic diseases occurred as we know, now More food items are replaced on the shelf by processed industrial food items, more severe chronic disease epidemics are.

Dr Max Gulhane: 39:14

Yeah, great, we'll come back to that because I want to delve into that a bit deeper Before we finish. On this idea of physiological and partitioning of deuterium in the body, you've mentioned that in your slides. That deuterium is present in the serum at around 12 millimoles, which is higher than the other ions in the body. Is the body specifically keeping deuterium there, or explain to us the role of deuterium specifically in the blood?

Dr Laszlo Boros: 39:48

Actually it's a lot higher because if you look at potassium, eukacium or other inorganic elements, those are actually one tenth or one fifth of the concentration of deuterium. Deuterium is very common and very abundant in circulation simply because there are so many water and hydrogen based molecules circulating and practically this is how the body gets rid of deuterium through circulation and kidney function urine, saliva, sweat and poop and so on. So practically our plasma is where the first significant deuterium exchange occurs, in red blood cells which use glycolysis to produce lactic acid and in the meantime they keep these NADP molecules reduced because they have to overcome the effect of oxygen, so they have to have reducing equivalence. So this glycolysis that takes place in red blood cells, very high flux, provides lactic acid with high deuterium. That gets into the liver and through the core cycle it's returned as glucose. But in athletes there's a vermicillin bacteria that starts using this high deuterium lactic acid to produce propionic acid, which is a ketone body. It's a low deuterium containing ketone body which can actually replace the core cycle to deplete the deuterium very efficiently and because of the high water content of the plasma, which is 99.

Dr Laszlo Boros: 41:38

Above percent, deuterium matches practically your body's ability to deplete deuterium by getting rid of through circulation of deuterium, mostly by dissolved urea and uric acid. So simply, these are all part of a very complex biochemical process, but very simple biochemical process. If we just talk about deuterium depletion and overcoming deuterium, overloaded tissues and it's definitely the most abundant inorganic element in our blood and it should be measured just like everything else or anything else in the plasma. If you go to a lab study or a clinical or diagnostic panel of blood work, then those inorganic elements are part of your history and that's how deuterium should be approached to measure it in blood and in other fluid or liquids, for example you say at breath, which gives you a better idea of how much deuterium is returned from your tissues into the circulation. And by those ratios you can tell how efficient your body is able to separate deuterium from protons or proteome and how to actually keep your tissues or tissue level operations in the loaded tube range.

Dr Max Gulhane: 43:19

That's interesting and the usual reason in medicine why an assay isn't performed or a test isn't performed is because the mainstream clinician doesn't know what to do with it, with the result, and the rule of one of the rules in medicine is don't order a test that you can't interpret. A classic example of this is a fasting insulin level, which is a very easy way to give an insight into someone's metabolic health, and a higher fasting insulin level can give insight into the development of insulin resistance well before the blood glucose level starts arranging. But I imagine that no one orders a serum deuterium because the implication of a high level is that we need to be going through a lifestyle change that you've previewed for us, which is specifically consuming foods that are low in deuterium. I'm guessing I've never ordered this and I'd be interested in the interpretation of it but I'm guessing that if someone has a high serum deuterium, then that is just representing is it correlating well to whole total body deuterium level, and that implies that they need to be doing these lifestyle measures. Yeah.

Dr Laszlo Boros: 44:27

I'd say in between, it's what you consume as far as food is concerned, how hard your microbiome is or what kind of microbiome components or composition you have, and also your age, your sleeping patterns, your ketosis versus glucosis, your daily activities and also your underlying disease processes. They all impact on blood deuterium levels. So for just to dig out exactly how those relate to diseases, you also want to do a what we call the organic acid test from urine where you can actually check on the TCA cycle intermediates to see how your mitochondrial branch out, the TCA, the senioric rapps, cycle high branches out of organic acids. Meaning that you can interpret your data based on mitochondrial functions as far as deuterium levels are concerned. And then you would ask the patient what kind of food, what's the source, what they eat, where they get their food, how much water they drink and from these components.

Dr Laszlo Boros: 45:45

If you do this with some biochemical knowledge then you can kind of pinpoint to various problems in lifestyle consumption of certain food items, the sources and age related, sleep related and lifestyle related issues. So eventually you can and you would be able to interpret the data very efficiently and with specifics of how and what kind of diseases to expect and how to overcome those and usually when I get questions about what do you know levels they should or a patient should reach, I usually start by just simply asking them of what their nutritional and what their source is, because usually that's the first obstacle that you have to overcome of how to deal with certain lifestyle and food related issues to prevent chronic diseases and to treat efficiently chronic diseases and eventually to provide a better life expectancy and also a better life quality for those patients, especially obesity, diabetes and cancer.

Dr Max Gulhane: 47:13

Yeah, great. And let's pivot now and talk about this idea of metabolic disease, because essentially, as far as I'm conceiving it, so many of the preventable conditions that are putting people in nursing homes stem from metabolic dysfunction, insulin resistance, and they're all tissue specific manifestations, whether that's cardiovascular disease, whether it is dementia, or whether all these problems come down on a hormonal level to insulin resistance. But on a mitochondrial level, it's dysfunctional mitochondria. I like to look at things like the presence of ectopic fat or visceral fat that is even predating or anti-seeding the development of a raised fasting insulin. I want to ask you about a critical thing that's been on my mind, which is is the presence of ectopic fat, which I guess they're spilling over of energy outside physiological white adipose depose? Is that a fundamentally a problem of excess deuterium?

Dr Laszlo Boros: 48:23

Yes, and it becomes more clear if you think about this process, what we call metabolite or molecular overcrowding, because any particular accumulation process amyloidosis, glucose, fat they all indicate a problem with complete sub-shape oxidation, where the products are carbon dioxide, water and energy.

Dr Laszlo Boros: 48:55

This is what your Formula One race car engine does. It burns fuel very efficiently at high rpm, delivering incredible force. For that you have to tweak it and very precisely you have to kind of adjust all the intake of the exhaust parts and very efficiently you have to bring it into a highly precisely calculated manner that your body can actually do if everything works fine, meaning that if there's ignition and there's sufficient exhaustion, you can actually load or you can actually perform in those mitochondria more efficiently, much more efficiently if your detune is low, if your nanomotors are spinning at high rotation, your metabolic water formation efficient, your TC cycle is able to produce carbon dioxide, which is the optimal gas form of any burning or biological oxidation process. If this set of reactions is blocked anywhere, that could be mitochondria, that could be mitochondrial nanomotors, that could be oxygen delivery, that could be the electron transport chain. Not enough light, not enough natural light, not enough exposure to red light, for that matter.

Dr Laszlo Boros: 50:26

You actually diminish these mitochondrial functions. So there is no complete sub shade oxidation which results in carbon dioxide and you can just kind of exhaust like in a exhaust pipe through your breath. Practically you can exhale. If these steps or if these reactions are diminished, then metabolic crowding or metabolic crowding steps in and you have to store those molecules until they break down and a certain body compartment it could be visceral fat, it could be compsive fat, it could be fat tissue itself, it could be excessive glycogen, it could be excessive protein of any sort based on tissue specifics. But it's practically a part of a inefficient complete biological oxidation system where you have to store molecules instead of burning them completely. And once that's set in, then you start at tissue levels, you start building up fat. That compromises tissue functions, oxygen delivery, blood flow, circulation, so on. The simple swissiosis is practically just stepping in in apicronic disease where you deal with this metabolic crowding and the truth is we don't need glucose, we don't need carbohydrates.

Dr Laszlo Boros: 52:00

Our body is designed our liver is designed to produce carbohydrates from glycerol or fat, meaning that it's a gluconeogenic precursor. So, provided that you eat enough fat and a little fat, which is not the same as fatty acids fat is composed of a glycerol, where all these glycerol is a three-carb molecule and each of those can have fatty acids attached to them. These are what we call triglycerides or phospholipids, if there's one phosphate and two fatty acids, and this is how your liver exchanges fatty acids with adipose tissue and heart muscle, for example. The most efficient way of delivering energies in this form of this fat, because it's very saturated with hydrogen. A fat, a hard hydrocarbon is very different from a glucose molecule, which is a six-carbons mixed with six water molecules. So hydrocarbons are carbons in hydrogen, a carbohydrate are carbons in water. So practically, if you look at a hydrocarbon, it has twice as many almost hydrogens compared to the same amount of carbons that they carry and for that matter they are much more efficient and much more suited fuel source for metabolic water formation, which is oxygen and hydrogen, and also for ATP synthesis, which needs these protons to come into the mitochondrial matrix. And those are the most efficient low-duty soft rays to deliver this hydrogen protons and not neutrons to the mitochondria. So hydrocarbons and carbohydrates are very different how they behave in our systems. Hydrocarbons and carbohydrates have very different dutium contents simply because the way they are made in nature.

Dr Laszlo Boros: 54:08

Again, photosynthesis and biological oxidation are the reverse or opposite processes in a sense that, but they all will fare the same biological role is practically to capture the energy of sunlight and deliver it to species that are chemotrophic or heterotrophic, and I gave these talks based on basic biochemical or biochemistry teaching at UCLA and Jack Rusch took some of that in his arguments. But practically it's a biochemical scenario when we look at these reactions and there are actually rows of electromagnetic radiations in the form of lights and so on which actually interact with these electron transferred chain proteins. And also what's very important is that there's a mitochondrial process, what we call these nanoconfinement and proton, these table stabilization processes, which also produce energy against the zero point energy scales. We actually beaming up these energy producing scenarios just to understand human energy production, or you carry out cell energy production in general. Now we are actually linking this with the obligatory fatty acid oxidizing or fatty acid modifying cell organ and what we call peroxazones, and the result is hydrogen peroxide, which can be, by catalase turned into a metabolic water.

Dr Laszlo Boros: 55:59

And sleep is very important because during sleep you slow down oxygen delivery and that's when molecular oxygen, or two, steps in and this is how you supply your peroxazone with oxygen and the breathing, or the slow breathing, during sleep serves this process of deutym depletion from fat and the result is hydrogen peroxide, which produces metabolic water in mitochondria with the use of catalase. But practically, sleep is just to go into a ketosis, a fat burning state, without eating anything. The problem is during daytime, if you get hungry, you go to the freezer, you open the door and you start eating all kind of stuff. If you sleep, you actually allow your, with low oxygen tension, simply because your breathing slows down, these peroxazones to kick in, even though they don't produce much energy. They produce low detune hydrogen peroxide which can be taken to mitochondria to produce low detune metabolic water from there.

Dr Laszlo Boros: 57:16

And this process is so critical and so important that, for example, if you want to climb to the top of the Mount Everest, if you want to climb to the top of the Himalaya without supplementary oxygen, you have to be nutritional or grass fat ketosis.

Dr Laszlo Boros: 57:36

Otherwise you're not going to make it so practically, as it comes to not only chronic disease but also human performance or extreme challenges. In that matter, these systems, the peroxazome or mitochondria, or the proton destabilization, the light effects, the heat production, these are all interconnected in a very simple way and that's practically. Carbohydrates and hydrocarbons behave differently as far as their energy and detune load, so practically you want to operate under nutritional and metabolic ketosis on low detune saturated animal fat and from then on you can actually, metabolically and energetically, you can challenge your system and you will be able to perform and you will be able to reverse certain disease processes, mostly chronic metabolic diseases, simply because now your mitochondria is able to completely exhaust those stored fatty acids, proteins, carbohydrates, whatever those are, because of you actually treated metabolic crowding at the cellular level with appropriate low detune, high energy substrate delivery in the form of saturated grass fat, animal fat, and that's key to health.

Dr Max Gulhane: 59:13

I'm blown away, lazlo. This is absolutely amazing. I think you're really helping me put together a whole bunch of pieces in my head around the pathogenesis of metabolic dysfunction. Let me go through a couple of those things that you said in turn, because there was so much gold in what you've just said.

Dr Max Gulhane: 59:32

Essentially, when the state of the art in terms of most of the metabolic clinicians, that and kind of thought leaders on this topic is that metabolic dysfunction starts in dysfunction of the adipocyte and then the adipocyte reaches a personal fat threshold, it can no longer store substrates in there. So these spill out into, you know, ectopic fat deposits, whether that's hepatocyatosis, fat in the liver, whether that's, you know, white adipose, but in in in an ectopic depot such as the viscera in the abdomen or even within the muscle, another form of ectopic fat deposit. But I was never satisfied by that explanation and it didn't help me understand pieces of evidence like circadian disruption, which is this idea that and there was a recent there was a study done where they had two groups of mice. They fed them the exact same diet but one had a circadian disrupted shift work, a light environment, and that group of mice developed a fibrotic and inflammatory adipose tissues, expansion of of of their visceral and subcutaneous adipose depots and they developed insulin resistance. So there's obviously more factors at play than what we're eating in terms of developing or exceeding this personal fat threshold, and then we're developing ectopic fat deposits and then, on the way, insulin resistance and then type 2 diabetes and the rest.

Dr Max Gulhane: 1:00:55

But what you've just described is that it's a backup of substrate. It's incomplete oxidation or incomplete combustion of these substrates, that is, that is therefore being altered or built up in different organs, and you know any other metabolic doctor that you talk to that they'll make the note that certain patients can, will manifest metabolic disease in different ways and some get, some will get, will only have the tiniest bit of visceral fat, but they'll be floridly type 2 diabetic. Others will have massive expansion of their subcutaneous fat and be metabolically fine. Others will get hypertension and get kidney specific manifestations. So it's all a massive spectrum. But what you're helping me understand is that this is a fundamental mitochondrial problem and a backup of substrate and and there's multiple different steps that things can go wrong. But you know it's all kind of coming back to the mitochondrial function in terms of of how things are and why things are going wrong yeah.

Dr Laszlo Boros: 1:01:57

So you need to think of, like how you come to this plant. When you're a baby, when you're a newborn, you have a 2.9 millimore per liter glucose and and one millimore per liter beta hydroxy butyrate. That means you you're born in ketosis, you're born in a metabolic ketosis, which is what you reach in the morning after asleep as well. So you're, you come to this planet in ketosis, you wake up in ketosis in your team depleting ketosis, and the key to this is practically regulate oxygen intake and switch from mitochondria to proxazone. Proxazone to mitochondria, another. It's more like a hybrid engine. The proxazone can only use and only modify fatty acids and long chain saturated fatty acids. Mostly they produce acetylcoinsame and they produce using O2. So it's it's not the red blood cells and hemoglobin that provides that O2, but it's dissolved oxygen in your blood which is available. It doesn't matter how slow you sleep, actually sleeping in deep and this is Wemhoff and some other methods that then you can actually improve increase proxazomal beta oxidation and, for that matter, you can deplete duteum and produce the tumor, depleted metabolic water or hydrogen peroxide for for mitochondria. Once you wake up and you start eating, you eat a mixed diet. That means carbohydrates mix in if you don't keep ketosis, meaning that you have to start dealing with duteum. Some other ways and this is like by glycosis is inserted, embedded in the system. Practically during daytime you can get rid of certain amount of duteum, but if your duteum intake is overloading these systems the trash holds are overloaded then you're gonna start breaking mitochondria down. And once you start breaking mitochondria down, you're not able to completely oxidize fatty acids, neither fatty acids, nor carbohydrates or or or amino acids, and the result of that is gonna be a fat storage or or or a metabolic, metabolic crowd, and they all go down to the mitochondrial mechanisms and processes. It doesn't matter how and where the fat shows up or how extensive it is. Practically they are all tissue specific presentations of a duteum overload and broke up, broken mitochondria.

Dr Laszlo Boros: 1:04:54

And those can you. You can improve with food, nutrition, light, sleeping patterns and so on. There's no supplements, there's no drug, there's. There's nothing. You can actually fix this very complex system. You as a physician, use a doctor who actually talked to the whole system. As far as patients present their diseases, you have to look at them from the bottom up, meaning that you have to kind of deal with the mitochondria first and think over how you can improve the complete biological oxidation and exhaustion of carbons from the whole system, because that's practically the form of carbon dioxide, that's the and when metabolic water production. That's the whole idea. Be behind a responsive metabolism to challenges and physical exercise and so on, meaning that you are more kind of ready to take physical challenges, you are less prone to develop chronic diseases, you are healthier in general, you can perform some other fox functions more efficiently, focusing on certain things, performing specific tasks.

Dr Laszlo Boros: 1:06:13

And what is really very important, which we observed over time, is how much water you drink, because water intake is also a source of duteum and this is the sneakiest part of the team because there is no carbons involved. So they actually get absorbing your tissues and get diluted and get mixed with its cytoplasmic water and first through the circulation and the interstitial tissue compartments and then your cellular water. And in the meantime your brain will swell because the osmotic lack of osmotic, osmotic pressure and, for that matter, you develop these kind of low-grade. If you drink too much water with no salt, excessively, without thirst, you can develop a diabetes insipidus which is again compromising your urea cycle. It compromising your anti-diarrheal vasopressin, anti-diarrheal hormone output, because the pituitary gland produces sexual hormones for the costimulating hormone, growth hormone and thyroid stimulating hormone then you can actually kind of disrupt all metabolic regulators and all metabolism that are linked so so well and so tightly together.

Dr Laszlo Boros: 1:07:44

You can disrupt these, this whole process and and for that matter you can you will start up, you will start building up visceral fat.

Dr Laszlo Boros: 1:07:56

Then, when visceral fat storage spaces are not really sufficient to store that fat, then you, you're gonna build up subcontinuous fat and once that starts, you, you, you carrying deposit, depositing fat in in various other tissues, especially when inflammatory cells kick in, because they sense that there's cells that signal to apoptosis or or degenerative processes set in.

Dr Laszlo Boros: 1:08:26

Inflammation is always part of it, because a dying cell is also signaling for, for phagocytides or or cells that will clear up the remnants of those of those non-functioning mitochondria bathing cells. And this whole process starts with is characterized with metabolic syndrome, various internal medical challenges like high blood pressure, high glucose, high circulating fat is practically because you cannot exhaust all those, you cannot actually get rid of the carbon skeleton, the carbon sources, and the only way they can actually be stored is in the form of their most compact, let largest, I would say, chain length fatty acids and that's how BCD, diabetes and type one type to develop after all, because you lose metabolic sensitivity to oxygen and protons and mitochondrial processes. So after all, you just end up with a big stuffed oxidative system that is not able to oxidize completely the subchase that are provided. I can't hear you right now.

Dr Max Gulhane: 1:09:54

Sorry, On a basic level it's just the use, the analogy of an engine. It's like the Formula 1 engine that needs the precise inputs and the precise tuning. The metabolic syndrome and metabolic dysfunction is just a complete mismatch of the fuel sources and an inefficient engine that is simply not working properly.

Dr Laszlo Boros: 1:10:16

Imagine a Formula 1 race engine that has a very tight intake of air oxygen. Oxygen is the only element they need burning practically hydrocarbons, which is a high-octane fuel. Octane is the 8th carbon phalliacid, phalliacidineal fuel, and higher that number is more efficiently those fuels burn. And if you actually overload your cylinders with either oxygen or with fuel, this burning process will be insufficient and immediately you drop performance, Immediately you drop energy production and what we call is the choking of the engine. We know how that works. We know oxygen limited environment.

Dr Laszlo Boros: 1:11:07

You have to adjust.

Dr Laszlo Boros: 1:11:08

I'm not sure if you have flown airplanes, but if you are flying a Cessna and you reach a certain flying altitude, then you have to close your oxygen intake or you have to close your fuel intake because your oxygen is less pressurized in higher altitude.

Dr Laszlo Boros: 1:11:27

So you have to adopt, you have to adjust your hydrocarbon intake based on the oxygen availability. If you keep overstuffing your fuel, if you keep overstuffing the system with excess fuel and there is not enough oxygen and not enough mitochondrial processes to make these two to meet the hydrogen from food and oxygen from air, because you overstuff this, then practically you break the engine and the first you see a decrease in performance, and then you break the engines because those engines will stop after all. So these have to be very tightly regulated and we have all the biochemical processes to regulate these very tightly, very efficiently for our mitochondria. But once these proportions are and the due content of the fuel breaks the engine, or the other way around, if there's too much fuel coming in or there's less oxygen and these are not balanced, then there's going to be a major impact in your fuel ruining system.

Dr Max Gulhane: 1:12:38

I love that. Thank you, lazlo. And I will make a quick point about how the light fits in, because the near infrared light is helping the mitochondria produce melatonin and melatonin is one of the most ancient and efficient antioxidant hormones. So we talked about the mitochondrial dysfunction because they're building up excessive reactive oxygen species. Well, if you're not getting, if you're circadian rhythms disrupt, if you're not getting infrared during the day to help make that melatonin, then the engine is again, you're not going to have enough oil and then it's also going to break. And if you're not getting red light, which we know helps potentiate the efficiency of the fourth cytochrome, then again that's going to contribute to mitochondrial dysfunction. And then red light is also being absorbed by mitochondrial water inside.

Dr Max Gulhane: 1:13:29

So it's fascinating and elegant how all these parts interact and when you don't get the light right or you don't get the food right, you need to get both right, and I talked to patients about getting their light diet right and their food diet right and that's plenty of grass-fed animal fat and plenty of regulated circadian rhythm. But you basically need to do both of those. So I really like that the point. I just want to go back to this idea of ectopic fat as a deuterium depot, because I got in a Twitter argument with someone about this and they insisted that it is. The ectopic fat is the actual depot for excess deuterium and a sign of deuterium accumulation, and a good friend and colleague, dr Sean O'Mara, is doing great work in terms of recommending people identify visceral fat, especially through MRI, which is showing them the problem. But biochemically, the actual mechanism is what we're talking about and this idea that deuterium is building up and isn't being excreted properly Is that correct?

Dr Laszlo Boros: 1:14:33

Yeah, that's right.

Dr Laszlo Boros: 1:14:35

When you have deuterium imbalanced and you overload your system with deuterium, it will find a storage form for itself, meaning that it's going to end up in glycosis and water exchange products, simply because if you label glucose with deuterium it's going to end up inside a plasma quarter.

Dr Laszlo Boros: 1:14:58

That side of plasma quarter supplies all the biochemical reactions, including fatty acids in days, which is an extra mitochondrial process. But the substrate, not only a coenzyme A, comes from citric acid. But if the fatty acid synthesis process, which is a huge complex in your cytoplasma, if it has water or NADPH or reducing the equivalent, which is loaded with deuterium, then your fat may become deuterium loaded and those are again stored because of the lack of biological oxidation in the actopic fat tissues and fat accumulation. If you look at MRI images, on MRI images those fat pads may look darker because of the access to deuterium, because deuterium does not allow protons to move as freely and as quickly during MRI. So if it's a proton MRI, then you're going to see a lack of signal and by comparing those signals you can actually determine the deuterium content of your fat tissue, which you can actually do using these image processing softwares.

Dr Max Gulhane: 1:16:19

I'm so glad you brought that up because that was my exact next question, which is using MRI to basically identify deuterium. As far as I was aware and I'm not a radiologist and even the radiologists that I've talked to don't seem to have any understanding of this but there is deuterium specific spectroscopy modes on MRI that involve, and certain protocols, especially in your oncology, involve, ingesting deuterium rich traces. But explain to us how we can identify deuterium rich tissues, maybe on standard MRI modes?

Dr Laszlo Boros: 1:16:54

Yeah, so MRI is practically a magnetic field where actually you delocalize protons using a radio frequency and that means when they spin because protons they spin they use absorbed electromagnetic energy to change their location we call it nuclear proton delocalization and as they return they emit the energy they absorbed during this changing of their positions. And that's what you detect in MRI Spectrically a proton moving or a proton movement measuring device, proton MRI or magnetic resonance images. Now, if there is deuterium in your tissues, one single deuterium, for example in ice water, can actually stop a thousand protons around it to resonate appropriately, meaning that those protons are tight in their structures, meaning that they're unable to delocalize and they're unable to return and emit this energy. So in certain scan modes there's two kinds of scans. One is the lattice and spin relaxation and the other one is the spin-spin relaxation. Those are both affected by deuterium, because deuterium does not allow protons to move as freely as just simply just in proton environment. So you can see a darker or a diminished image.

Dr Laszlo Boros: 1:18:35

Now the problem with what you refer to is called deuterium. Metabolic imaging is when they actually use a glucose molecule that has deuterium on it and as it breaks down, certain products can be measured using magnetic resonance imaging or spectroscopy. The problem with labeling glucose is that 90% of the label of deuterium ends up in cytoplasmic water through glycolysis. So again, how much is lost is hard to determine based on just gassing. So we believe that kind of getting a deutonomous type of approach to MRI or using MRI as a methodology. Then you can actually compare these images based on signal strength and from there, for fat tissue you can determine based on the lack of proton movement or the lack of signal how much deuterium those tissues may contain. And in the meantime you can actually do water discrimination, fat discrimination scans and you can get closer to these answers. But practically anywhere. When proton movements are involved in any kind of biological diagnostic processes indirectly, those are all deuterium measuring devices because deuterium compromises proton movements.

Dr Max Gulhane: 1:20:03

Okay, so we should be able to get an idea just using a standard MRI. We don't need to use specific imaging mode or most MRIs we're going to be able to use. We're going to be able to visualize deuterium by using this approach.

Dr Laszlo Boros: 1:20:19

Indirectly, indirectly again and you have to kind of again work with some software aid to be able to analyze those images more efficiently and you have to kind of consider the deuterium that is embedded in connective tissues, collagen, fiber tissues and so on, which are also part of fat tissue, and you can use deutonomics or deuterium metabolic imaging only if you want to look at flux, but you have to calculate for the loss of the tracer into metabolic water, which is it does not make this process easier to use. It's practically a different angle or different window to look at the same kind of problem of how much deuterium there is in tissues. We don't recommend loading anything with deuterium simply because they break down nanomotors and based on their amount or their level of consumption, those can harm especially mitochondrial structures. And for us it's easier to work with some alternative approaches, for example red light, which makes interstitial water in mitochondria more viscous, so it improves mitochondrial functions, besides improving complex five, complex four and complex five, and it actually makes these proton bonds resonate more efficiently, especially in the 670 nanomater range.

Dr Laszlo Boros: 1:21:56

It's really interesting that my high school buddy, dr Kraus, france Kraus, won the Nobel Prize in Physics since in 2023. He was born in May 1662. I was born in June 12 in 62, so we are just a few weeks apart. In high school we were actually competing in physics very efficiently. So actually my classmate in high school beat France Kraus, the Nobel Prize winning physicist, for the Atos second laser in a high school physics competition, national or international physics competition, which is kind of the final part of the story, but anyhow.

Dr Laszlo Boros: 1:22:37

So now we are designing a project where we actually use this at the second laser to excite biological samples with this very short laser impulse and measure the red light output of the system, just to see how much proton and how much deuterium is involved in the chemical makeup of the sample. So it seems that combining resonance, which is magnetic, or light, it almost or electromagnetic frequency it does not necessarily matter, in the sense that as long as you can sensitively measure this or apply this electromagnetic range which is in the red light and infrared light range, you can actually mobilize protons and mobilize metabolic water, interfacial water, more efficiently. So you can improve a lot of biological processes. Yet in the meantime, based on red light emission, if there's a lack of red light emission, then protons are not moving very efficiently indirectly. This is a deuterium measuring approach or a deuterium measuring device, and this is where we are kind of tweeting, just kind of establishing in a metabolic research arena. But there are many, many new interesting things are coming along.

Dr Max Gulhane: 1:24:09

Yeah, very interesting. And look the reason I was asking. I wasn't proposing administering deuterated tracer in terms of routine investigation and management of metabolic disease. It was more an academic interest. But I think the point is giving people an insight into their visceral fat is a very powerful motivator to implement the lifestyle changes that we've discussed earlier. And if we could relatively easily, with no additional time on the MRI table, give people an insight into the deuterium content of that visceral fat or of their organs, then that would be even more stimulus, in my mind, to help them adopt a low deuterium lifestyle, because it's just another way of giving them more impetus to make those changes.

Dr Laszlo Boros: 1:24:59

Yeah, I actually approach this practically. I look at how fast my neas are growing, how long I need to sleep at night to get into ketosis, measure my ketone body levels and measure my glucose levels occasionally and eat once a day at night or my dinomias are the main courses, and those are animal, grass-fed animal, and I like this kind of fasting, little bit thirsty, kind of exhaust all kind of organic molecules to mitochondrial complete sub-shade oxidation, simply because you don't have to load fully your system always because of kind of industrial-based recommendations. You need to operate in the optimal mode. Simply, you don't fuel in all kind of gasoline or diesel oil when your engine is not designed for that. You don't put diesel fuel into a formula of a race car simply because it's not designed for that.

Dr Laszlo Boros: 1:26:23

It's a very different idea. It's a very different concept. It's a very different set of principles how these engines operate and simply it's the easiest way to describe this is that for optimal biochemical operations you have to use the optimal fuel source and you have to use the optimal regulatory processes and those are dependent on how you understand this system. It's practically a doctor, I would say, is a good mechanic that can actually adjust the carburetor, the injector intake and the oxygen intake and the exhaust pipe how clean, and the catalysator and so on. This we have to bring it down to the mitochondrial level and as long as you understand how these hybrid proxysol more of mitochondrial beta oxidation and substrate oxidation systems work hand in hand and how they step in in different stages of your lifestyle or their circadian rhythm, then you can actually tell them or design a food and the lifestyle pattern that can actually help or reverse chronic disease processes. And it is just my general kind of experience that this seemed to work in every case where we have an opportunity and have a compliance with these.

Dr Max Gulhane: 1:27:51

Yeah, and look, I have delved down very you know, the evolutionary rabbit holes of what is a species appropriate diet, and there is debate about the role of DHA in terms of encephalization or the development of advanced human intelligence, and I think that definitely played a role in terms of scavenging bioavailable and very readily available sources of DHA from the shores. But I mean, there's no doubt that we were carnivorous during periods of our evolution and there is stable carbon isotope data showing that during periods of in the late I believe it's the late middle or late Pleistocene in the Paleo getting my, my, my periods confused but there was a period where Homo erectus was essentially a hyper carnivore so we were hunting other carnivorous animals. Just going to show that we've got deeply programmed genetic machinery and metabolic machinery to deal with with animal factors.

Dr Laszlo Boros: 1:28:56

Listen, if you go to the cave, art you never seen, you only saw hunting. You know cavemen. You never saw one eating carrots or you know kind of gardening. It's practically all archaeological or historic and all art data points to this carnivore lobster. And more fatty it is, more detuned, depleted, it is more beneficial for our brain development. And I was actually very stunned and very interested in exploring a 4.2 million years old exploration in North Northern Ethiopia where actually they found four and a half million years old carnivore behavior from prehistoric men. They even found those tools, the stone tools that were used to break in through the schools of these herbivores or large plant eating animals, and that must have been a prehistoric man who learned how to use these tools, the other kind of species that lived in those faunas or lived on those biological conglomerates or communities. They were actually eating the meat, the proteins, the interiors, the visceral fat and so on, but the best stuff was left for this little prehistoric man, which is the bone marrow with the highest fat content, and they didn't have to compete with other predators because other predators were not interested in those carcass animals. So safely, with plenty of food, they could evolve, with less deuterium to develop. They didn't have to repair nanomotors, because how do you hide deuterium foods? They actually could use the brain and their fine finger joint movements to actually perform some more complicated, more complex tasks memory, society and providing or building life kind of surroundings that are more safe. They started cooking these soups these bone soups or these because they moved them around and then, about 400,000 years ago, close to Tel Aviv, they found cavemen's habitats where they actually used these bones and they saw back the skin around the bone and the bone marrow to conserve these bone marrow like canned food or the caveman that was actually good for eight weeks to consume. So it was a huge part of human adaptation and human evolution, if you call it that way.

Dr Laszlo Boros: 1:32:06

But this is how the creator designed our system biochemical systems, biological systems to be able to use these very valuable, incredible, beneficial low deuterium fat sources or hydrocarbon sources. To design to supply these four mobile race car nanomotors which we have as part of our mitochondrial complex five with the best fuel whatsoever, because some of those they spin about 100,000 rotations per minute and those are the ciliae of some bacteria. They use the same nanomotors. If you look at any living species, as long as they use nanomotors, they use the same design and, for that matter, they are all efficiently able to use either carbohydrates or fat. And, based on what they use, this is what their phenotype behaviors and performance and their abilities as species or individual hunters and so on, are able to find the best sources food sources and, for that matter, this is how and why, and that's why the lions are so powerful and the cheetahs are so powerful, because they don't mess with anything else other than just saturated animal fat.

Dr Max Gulhane: 1:33:35

And I want to make the comment, and I agree because I think in empirical, clinical practice, when you put a patient on a high animal fat, grass-fed beef diet, all their problems go away, to use a very simplistic term. And I also think why the replacement of saturated animal fat in the human diet which was tallow, which was fatty steak, which was butter, the replacement of that with these refined polyunsaturated seed oils like canola, soy, corn, vegetable sunflower, has been possibly the most important food issue, even more so than sugar, even more so than carbohydrate. I think that is a critical problem in our society is because not only was it the introduction of these fat fats as the main fatty acid source in our diet collectively, but it's also the absence of those saturated animal fats and the fat soluble vitamins that we got removed. So I talked to Tucker Goodrich about this and he has extensively looked into the pathology of why these oils are so harmful, and it's his opinion that it's the breakdown products of linoleic acid specifically that are interfering with the function of the mitochondria. And he's talked about the incorporation of linoleic acid into mitochondrial cardiolipin, which is problematic.

Dr Max Gulhane: 1:35:05

And then I talked to Jack Cruz and he makes the point that it is actually the presence of deuterium in the seed oils that are making them so toxic and so harmful. So can you square that this for me, or help us, as the listeners, understand the mechanism of harm of highly refined industrial seed oils? Is it mostly the deuterium? Is it mostly this linoleic acid breakdown products? Is it both? How do you think about it?

Dr Laszlo Boros: 1:35:37

Now we wrote a paper about this in a oncology called what to Eat, what Not to Eat that is the question, and you're right. Are these plant-based oil nutritional items either hydrogenated or treated with saturated? They actually use their oily, fatty nature by using industrial saturation, using hydrogen gas, and some of those have 250 ppm deuterium concentrations. So once you start processing, using organic solvents and extracting certain oil types, especially unsaturated fat, and you want to saturate it so they actually hold longer and hold better on the shelf, when you put them in the cellar, you know this yellow big bucket of frying, whatever those are, I just I don't even walk through those eyes, I just kind of just stay out of them, simply because those are probably the worst stuff you can encounter when as far as nutrition is concerned and because those are not natural. Even the plant-based oils are not natural simply because they use organic extraction processes. They use various saturation processes to actually make them look in a certain way, make them be consistent in a certain way and, for that matter, those are unsuited for human consumption, high in deuterium, because of the saturation of organic extraction processes. And actually we wrote a paper about this in New York College. You can go and check them out and when you post this conversation we can all link those, we can attach those publications, because this has been a big problem for a long time. There's a French team, dr Robbins with Dr Gabor Chomier. They did work together on measuring deuterium content of plant-based and deuterium content of animal-based oils and fat products. Practically those are very different because plants they cannot eat fat, meaning that they have only access to inorganic elements in the form of water, carbon dioxide and sunlight. They cannot deplete deuterium. They cannot. Their deuterium depletion process is based on light resonance, practically. So they are not able to control deuterium in their oil or in their hydrocarbon products as easy as animals can, because animals eat grass. They use citrate mitochondrial product to produce their own fat, so they all have to be deuterium depleted. That's why saturated animal fat is the safest to eat, because they have the most efficient deuterium depleting process during fatty acid synthesis. And that's their mitochondria, that's their citrate synthase enzyme reaction which uses matrix water to produce that citric acid which is then through the citrate shuttle, it's shuttle to the cytoplasm. Non-manonar coenzyme or aceticity coenzyme if it's cholesterol synthesis is produced. And they all come from mitochondria Plants.

Dr Laszlo Boros: 1:39:17

They cannot do this plants. They have their own metabolic priorities, simply because they depend on photosynthesis. That's why they have to stay in one place, soak up as much water as they can, and then they depend on animals to spread their seeds and they wrap them into these sweet, addictive deuterium bombs called fruits. The wild boar comes, they eat the apples, they walk two kilometers and sorry, excuse my language, but they have a diary and they shit everywhere. So that's how trees propagate themselves, because they can produce a high deuterium addictive sugar, load fruits and kind of embed the seeds in there and the animals that eat them. They go into sugar calm and they start running around like lunatics and they spread the seeds everywhere. That's the purpose of sugar. That's the purpose of carbohydrates. It has no role in human nutrition. The only safest food that we can consume is grass-fed animal saturated fat.

Dr Max Gulhane: 1:40:35

Yes, it's interesting and I want to. I'll definitely include that paper in the show notes. Did you have specific deuterium concentrations for canola oil, for sunflower oil? Can you tell me now, are they 250, are they 200, what is the deuterium level in these oils or how can we test it?

Dr Laszlo Boros: 1:40:55

I can be anywhere from 150 to 250, based on what kind of saturation process, what kind of organic expression process. They need to read our paper in. What to eat. What to eat? That's the question. Because that's that paper was accepted in 24 hours by the chief editor.

Dr Laszlo Boros: 1:41:13

Because he said finally finally, the only thing he asked me is just to reduce the length of the paper from like 1200 words to 750 words. But practically it was like a light opening to like a li-bob kind of situation, to a oncological or cancer-related project where they actually figured that actually the ketogenic diet is not working in those animal models. So we looked at the the supply of those animal diets and sure enough it was loaded with plant based oils, the organic extraction and organic solvent extraction. It's describing that paper. So my best guess is what? 250 ppm or somewhere around. I just you know, if you look at Dr Robbins papers, if you get capsaicin from Paprika, which is from home growers, it has 110 ppm. Once you go and buy capsaicin from any chemical company, they produce capsaicin that has a ppm of 160. So the natural processes are all very different from the industrial processes and it doesn't matter what the oil comes from. When the industry steps in you can forget about the routine regulation of what nature is trying to accomplish.

Dr Max Gulhane: 1:42:51

Yeah, and that really makes me think that, yeah, how important the deuterium is in the terms of the seed oil toxicity story. And yeah, it's the omega-6, yeah, it's the oxalams, but they're essentially deuterium, as you, as Cruz talked about the deuterium bombs, it's deuterium and deuterium enriched, not only because of the industrial processing but also because, as you've mentioned, photosynthesis is inherently the process of plant metabolism, is inherently unable to engage in deuterium depletion.

Dr Laszlo Boros: 1:43:24

So because they cannot oxidize, they cannot eat fat. Practically they only use inorganic elements to assemble an organic molecule. They don't have the luxury like a cow can do practically producing their own fat using mitochondria.

Dr Max Gulhane: 1:43:42

And that really gets us to the next point, which is why grass-fed fat is so much more favorable than other forms of food. And have you recorded and apologies if this has already been talked about in your paper have you noticed a significant increase in deuterium content between grain-finished beef or grain-finished tallow, compared to fully grass-fed beef fat?

Dr Laszlo Boros: 1:44:08

Yeah, I'll give you an example. We did run IRMS isotope ratio, mass-pectronology studies on food sources, mere components, mere products from grass-fed and from industry-based grain-fed animals, but there is about a 20 to 30 degree CPM difference, which is huge. So it's big, it's really huge, it's big.

Dr Max Gulhane: 1:44:35

And Lesley.

Dr Laszlo Boros: 1:44:35

I mean I, it's big.

Dr Max Gulhane: 1:44:37

Yeah, part of my podcast is actually promoting the uptake of local regenerative farming which is fully grass-fed, because if I'm advocating to my patients to eat a carnivore, high meat diet, I want them to do so in an ethical, ethical way. But what you're telling me and what you're suggesting is that this is another reason why we need to be eating a fully grass-fed animal is because the fat, the tissue, the adipose tissue, the fat tissue in that animal is going to be much more deuterium depleted compared to the grain-finished animal. The next question is if I'm eating a wagyu steak which I don't do but historically I have in the past if that has intramuscular marbling, which is myosteatosis or ectopic fat deposition in the cow's muscle, is that fat intramuscular marbling going to be deuterium enriched compared to subcutaneous fat cap, say, on a porterhouse steak?

Dr Laszlo Boros: 1:45:38

No, those are going to be deuterium depleted. It doesn't matter how fat is distributed in a grass-fed animal. You are in the range of below 120. Now there may be variations based on where you recover that fat. It's from muscle or from fat pads, or from hind steak, from lint steaks, from sirloin, from filaminone, from T-bone. They may have a slight variation but they are all going to be below 120, 115 ppm. That's what matters.

Dr Laszlo Boros: 1:46:16

If you eat a steak that comes from an industry kind of based. It's called total nutritional protocol for cows. They use soybeans, they use dried jellyfish powder for protein supplements. They have no access to grace or pasture-based plants. Those actually overload their fat because they don't have the ability to deplete sufficiently deuterium from their fat that they build up in their muscle simply because they are overloaded with grains. I mean, look at corn, look at those are actually deuterium bombs. Practically those cows die in five years. They are not healthy either. Don't think those are actually good food sources.

Dr Laszlo Boros: 1:47:16

You actually eat disease animal meat with very high-duty content and the animals are sick. You're going to get sick. They have animal metabolic diseases. You become, after all, what you eat, unfortunately, and what you don't know. Practically this is the trick to understand this whole process is that you cannot really eat diseased animals, simply who are not fed in their natural habitat, simply because they are going to be carrying the same diseases, like you would eat grains and you would eat carbohydrates. That your system is just not. Your mitochondria are just not designed to burn those. Eventually, these diseases go from species to species once they are lifted or taken out of their natural environment.

Dr Max Gulhane: 1:48:16

Yes, I'm so glad to hear that from you because it's exactly what I have been advocating for, along with friend Jake Wolke, who's regenerative farmer, and Tristan, who interviewed you recently. You know all in a grudge that a fully grass-fed animal, in eating its natural diet whether that's venison, whether that's beef, whether that's bison, whether that's even seafood the best is going to be a wild-caught animal or a fully grass-fed animal, which is, in terms of beef, cattle agriculture is going to be fully rotationally grazed. That's going to enrich that fat with the highest quality nutrients. Another way of conceiving why we should be avoiding grain-fed or feed-lottered beef why should we be avoiding confined-fed pork? Monogastric animals, pork and chicken, which have been consuming the industrial products of monocropping agriculture, which are going to be those grains, are contaminated with industrial herbicides because, in the US particularly, they're all sprayed with glyphosate or other kinds of herbicides, especially if they're round-up ready, which is most of the corn and soy in the US.

Dr Max Gulhane: 1:49:26

So, as you said, you argue what you eat, but you're actually what you eat to eat. So we need to be very specific then in terms of food selection. We've got so much to talk about still that I think we maybe just have to record another episode, but I want to ask you a couple final things. And, in terms of testing using I believe it's mass spectroscopy that you use to determine the deuterium level, is that an easy process? Because I really feel like we need to redo the food pyramid based on the deuterium content of food and we need to be advising our patients to eat the most deuterium-depleted foods, which, as we've talked about, is going to include animal fat predominantly at the top.

Dr Laszlo Boros: 1:50:12

Yeah, so the most standard method of measuring deuterium in water is through spectrophotometry, but it is only able to measure water deuterium content and you can turn each and every organic molecule into water if you oxidize and just like my friend Candia does. So the spectrophotometry is the standard method. The isotope ratio mass spectrometry is the organic molecules can be directly measured, but those are more expensive. Now there are certain testing sites for deuterium from Brett, from saliva and from urine. Those are available in Europe and in the United States. You can search around. I can put some links up there where you can kind of give them some really good connecting points to measure these. But I agree with you after all, deuterium content has to be shown, just like kilocalories and sugar content and so on. I think those don't need to be shown on the label of any food item and then they don't even have to provide kind of any other detail.

Dr Laszlo Boros: 1:51:42

I really just want to see the deuterium content. I don't care what else there is in there. I think that's the most important when you see a patient. I think, after all, the most important lab result is your deuterium content in serum, in Brett, in saliva, urine. Whatever is accessible, it should be part of the workup protocols and the laboratory protocols and, after all, you have to teach your patients to kind of monitor their nail growth, monitor their hair growth, monitor their sleeping patterns, just so. Are they really sleeping a few hours and getting up like in good rested state, meaning that their deuterium is probably low? Or they sleep a lot and they are not able to kind of rest enough, or they don't sleep well and they are not rested as part of their problem. So there are many ways of kind of living with this deuterium conscious kind of lifestyle and these can be part of either your consultation. I can consult on these. It's very simple. My website analyzed this. I'm very happy to talk about these on any individual. I'm not a medical, like I don't have a medical doctor but I don't practice. I just kind of give some ideas of how deuterium or living with deuterium is very practical and what's the scientific and how do. Scientific scenarios are lined up behind these kind of examples of lifestyle.

Dr Laszlo Boros: 1:53:32

There are papers out there now that actually report on deuterium content of certain foods. Gavosomja he just published one. It's in the cancer control where he actually measured the deuterium content of certain food items and you can actually get original data from there. We are planning to publish results based on grain fed and grass fed animals. Those papers are in the process of writing. The variety of university in Amsterdam we have a course due to Novics course where you can get into kind of details of these biochemical processes and these gardening and cultivating processes that are due to friendly and sure enough. Whatever you need. We are very happy to kind of list with this podcast, with this conversation, and we can come back and talk a little bit more. If you have more questions, I'm happy to do that in time.

Dr Max Gulhane: 1:54:38

Yeah Well, thank you so much, lazo. And yes, I think that everyone should be aware of the deuterium content of their food, and particularly their fats. And if you're eating seed oils, then you're eating a lot of deuterium and if you've got metabolic dysfunction, then you're going to be wanting to have a deuterium depleted diet. So we can definitely pick this conversation up again, because we haven't talked about cancer, we haven't talked about a whole bunch of other interesting things.

Dr Laszlo Boros: 1:55:07

Yeah, let's do another one specific disease related processes. Now we covered the basics and the nutrients and nutrition elements and some lifestyle, but if there are particular disease processes that you would like to discuss, I'm very happy to do so at the time.

Dr Max Gulhane: 1:55:24

Amazing. Well, thank you so much for your time and I'm very excited to push this one out. So, yeah, we'll talk again soon and thank you again. Thank you so much.