49. How Sunlight Helps you Lose Weight with Zaid K. Dahhaj

In this podcast we discuss the non-visual photoreceptor system, mealonpsin, why sunlight helps your lose weight, pro-opiomelanocortin (POMC), why building melanin is an important health strategy, and much more.

Zaid K. Dahhaj  is a men's health coach & co-host of The 2AM Podcast with extensive self education into the underlying drivers of chronic diseases. He has extensive knowledge of circadian biology and his current focus is on simplifying concepts surrounding our light environment and sunlight. 

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LINKS
Higher ultraviolet light exposure is associated with lower mortality: an analysis of data from the UK Biobank cohort study https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2023.07.11.23292360v1

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Transcript

Dr Max Gulhane: 4:12

Today I am speaking with Zaid Dahaj. He is a men's health coach who has had extensive self-education into the underlying drivers of chronic diseases and has similarly arrived at circadian biology as a fundamental pillar of optimal health. In this podcast, we discuss the non-visual photoreceptor system, particularly melanopsin. We also talk about why sunlight helps you lose weight. Pro-opioam, lanocortin or pom-C, by building melanin is an important health strategy, and much more. I hope you enjoy this conversation with Zaid. Okay, zaid Dahaj, thanks for coming onto the Regenerative Health podcast.

Zaid Dahhaj: 5:01

Thank you for having me, Max. I'm very excited.

Dr Max Gulhane: 5:03

So you have been posting some very, very interesting threads on Twitter recently that are approaching a bunch of topics, particularly around circadian biology sunlight, with a very interesting bent. I think what you've been posting about is very similar to what I have been talking. That is, this idea that we are fundamentally beings of light. So there's deeply encoded physiological adaptions and pathways in our body that speak to our physiology's use of light in health. So I'm really excited to do a deep dive with you on around these topics, but maybe we could just start by giving the listener a bit of background about yourself.

Zaid Dahhaj: 5:57

Yeah, so I come from a more unconventional background. Let's say I don't have any conventional certifications or degrees to my name. I've been purely driven by obsession ever since around 2015, when my father passed of heart disease. So, considering that heart disease is the leading global killer, that's something that really pushed me into an area of health, an area of obsession, to really figure this stuff out at the fundamental level, and I've been very grateful because it's allowed me to follow this path of helping people through my coaching, whether it's online, whether it's in person, and really I guess I just have the bug bit me, so to speak. I just have the obsession to go as deep as possible, and really I do think it's a lifelong journey for me, as I'm sure it is for you as well.

Dr Max Gulhane: 6:47

Yeah, and that curiosity is something that I respect immensely. And I think, in this modern day where we have got so many competing narratives and there's so many interpretations of the scientific literature by different people, by different organizations that might all have different interests, I respect anyone who really applies their knowledge and their intellectual horsepower to really try and work out what's going on, and that's what I think you've done and you continue to do. So it's great to see. So let's dive in and talk about this idea of a non-visual photoreceptor system. It's a bit of a mouthful, it sounds quite a obscure or esoteric concept, but why don't you give us an overview of how you think about this system?

Zaid Dahhaj: 7:38

Sure. So I like to think about it in a very simplistic manner. These are so non-visual photoreceptors are just light sensitive proteins that absorb specific wavelengths of light. So a few I think three of the most important ones that come to mind are melanopsin, which is inherently a blue light detector. You have neuropsin, which is inherently a UVA light detector, and then you have rhodopsin, which I believe detects green and is more oriented around low light environments. So just the very fact that we have these options within our system that are designed to take in natural light from the sun, I think that has huge implications for not only centralized but decentralized medicine and really how we approach chronic disease, because in my opinion, the eye is the gateway to not only the brain but the entire system as a whole, and once we can figure out how to orient our light environment in a way that is fundamentally aligned with that non-visual photoreceptor system, then I think we can see some very excellent results in terms of metabolic health and just remission of chronic disease as well.

Dr Max Gulhane: 8:47

Yeah, and the way I also like to frame it for people is everyone can understand this idea of proteins that help us form images, and everyone knows that, because that's obviously what the eye is for.

Dr Max Gulhane: 9:00

It can show us that you've got a tiger about to rip your head off, you've got, you can see the tree, you can see your child. But people, I don't think, realize that these photoreceptors are also present and to simply detect the specific wavelengths of light, as you've talked about, and the Melanopsin one. I think that's a good place to start, because people, it was the first one that was discovered and what I like to remind people is that the way it was discovered, or one of the kind of interesting scientific prompts for its discovery, was that people, who certain blind people, were still able to sleep at the right times. So it basically raised this question about so what was able, what was allowing them to respond to circadian cues so that they go to sleep at the right time if they couldn't see anything, so that I guess maybe we could go into that and talk about the history of the Melanopsin and then maybe why it's so important. Yeah.

Zaid Dahhaj: 10:06

Well, as I mentioned, just the very fact that you shared right there is astonishing the idea that blind people can can entrain their circadian systems in a proper way even though they can't see visually. Melanopsin is, you know. It's found all throughout the body, but a few of the places, of course the eye, the subcutaneous fat, which which Uncle Jack has shown recently through his research, I believe some other places as well, the skin.

Zaid Dahhaj: 10:32

So you find this blood vessels, which is has huge implications for cardiovascular disease in all sorts of other conditions. But the mirror nature of Melanopsin sensing blue light from the sun, is a very key point, because I always like to make this distinction between artificial blue light, that's inherently toxic, and natural blue light from the sun. That's, I think, a big area of confusion for people. But you know, once you understand that it is a blue light detector, then you can. You can create a lifestyle around protecting yourself from artificial light and then making sure that you maximize natural blue light within the day as well.

Dr Max Gulhane: 11:12

Yeah, and and that distinction I don't think many people are making and not they're not realizing that what we're getting from LED downlights, from screens, is fundamentally different to the blue light that's present naturally. So maybe talk about how you think about that distinction.

Zaid Dahhaj: 11:31

Yeah, Well, I mean that distinction. I think, like I said, it's one of the most misunderstood ones. But it really does come down to the fact that we just have to get more natural light from the sun. And what a lot of people don't think about is that the sun is a perfectly balanced package of light wavelengths, so every single light wavelength is meant to balance the others. And that's what I find kind of disingenuous, when people refer to studies that show that UVA or UVB causes skin cancer in nocturnal animals, things of that nature.

Zaid Dahhaj: 12:08

But really it's just about maximizing sunlight and protecting yourself from artificial light, and that's something that I go great length, go to a great length for, especially when it comes to things like building melanin. I mean, there's a lot to the conversation, but that's that's really how I think about it. And UVA, because the way I translate that to clients is in a simple manner, like all the scientific jargon and you know the intricacies, that stuff doesn't really appeal to the masses, in my opinion, and it doesn't work because most people just throw it out.

Dr Max Gulhane: 12:39

If you give them the practical action steps, I think that's more helpful and from my perspective at least, yeah, one way I like I've described it in the past is you know, imagine the blue light that you're getting from your LED as the, the meth, the methamphetamine of light. And I say that because it's essentially distilled and refined and highly highly processed, and whereas the blue light you're getting from the sun is balanced by UV during the day, at certain times it's balanced by red and infrared. When you, when you're simply under those blue lights, you're only getting, you know, a pure kind of meth hit of blue, and it's it's highly stimulatory and and highly, highly destructive to to these Melanopsin receptors.

Zaid Dahhaj: 13:27

Yeah, yeah, highly, highly destructive. And also on a fundamental, like cellular level, the way it interacts with the mitochondria, the way it destroys the, the ATPase, biological nanomotors, I mean. This is, these are not small matters, and I think it's on the education part, in terms of what we have to do is just explain this in a simple manner for people who are not aware, because when when the average person hears that you know, artificial light is toxic, it's abstract, they don't really understand what they, what that means, because they don't have a fundamental grasp of physiology or biology, especially when it comes to mitochondrial function as well.

Dr Max Gulhane: 14:06

Yeah, and maybe let's talk about these specific functions of melanopsin, and maybe I'll start with one that people can really relate to, and that is the pupillary light reflex. So if you, you know you hit your head, unfortunately, or you've, and you go into the emergency department and the, the doctor, the eye doctor, is shining a light in your eye, the it's actually melanopsin that are present in those specific retinal ganglion cells. That is transferring, is being received the message and then is transferring that message to to the rest of your, your brain, to enable that reflex. So so what else is melanopsin doing, maybe in the eye and then in the other sites that we talked about?

Zaid Dahhaj: 14:50

Well, I I believe that melanopsin has a really key function.

Zaid Dahhaj: 14:53

I mean, of course, you can't separate all of the options within the eye, they're all one system, so they, they play a multi, you know they, they run along the same lines typically, but it definitely has a stimulatory effect with blue light, as you mentioned.

Zaid Dahhaj: 15:07

So that's why getting up and exposing yourself to early AM sunlight is so important, along with the other light wavelengths, so it allows you to kickstart your, your circadian biological system and just get ready for the day so that other hormones, other neurotransmitters, they're able to function properly and you get benefit out of that In terms of the the blood vessels. I think you know this is something I haven't I've dived too deep on, but I would assume that blue light has a. It does penetrate the skin to some degree and the impact that that has on the blood vessels is just a positive one in terms of making sure that blood flow runs more efficiently. I've done more research on cardiovascular function and easy water and how easy water might potentially coat and protect the blood vessels. So those are just a few things that come to mind.

Dr Max Gulhane: 15:59

Yeah, no, that's good. And yeah, I read that recent paper, or was it in 2017, when they discovered that the melanopsin was in the the in these blood vessels, and it was. It's mediating what's known as photo relaxation. So what that sounds like to me is that when we're outside, when we're getting a natural sunlight in the form of blue light, then it's allowing those blood vessels to dilate. It's allowing, you know, optimal blood flow to occur. And you could just imagine that when you're under an artificial light and I'm not sure exactly, maybe you know, say, if you're constantly stim, stimulating those melanopsin receptors or you're destroying them with artificial blue light, then what is that doing to to the body's ability to to vaso vaso dilate? I'm not sure that's that's kind of open for for debate.

Zaid Dahhaj: 16:52

Yeah, it's an interesting question. So I think you know blue light, natural blue light from the sun, in combination with UV light. We know that that that combination stimulates nitric oxide within the skin. That leads to the blood vessels. So my hunch is that toxic artificial light not only, not only causes a vasoconstriction of the blood vessels, so it it doesn't allow for efficient blood flow. I think it also destroys the function of easy water, structured water, so to speak, within those blood vessels. And so you know, once you, once you destroy that and then you get into glycolcalix dysfunction, endothelium dysfunction, that's. I think that's just a recipe for disaster. And considering that most people are under blue, artificial blue light 24 seven, now we can start to see one of the big reasons why cardiovascular disease is the leading global killer.

Dr Max Gulhane: 17:45

Yeah, no, that that's a great point. And the there's so many ways that sunlight is regulating end of vascular health and endothelial health. And you've mentioned the promotion of that exclusion zone water. That is something that most doctors, most cardiologists have no concept of and I think one of the and I tweeted about this recently, so the, the, the idea for it to really summarize it for the listener is that along hydrophilic surfaces and along biological surfaces we formed this exclusion zone water, which is a change in the physical property of water that essentially excludes all, all solutes, and and work by Stephen Hussie he did an excellent presentation about this showed that basically anything bigger than a potassium ion is not able to penetrate exclusion zone water. So the idea that you know lipoproteins like LDL can somehow magically teleport from the lumen of the vessel into the, into the sub endothelial space in a healthy person, it just doesn't make sense at all to me.

Zaid Dahhaj: 18:51

Yeah, I mean, and and to think about, like to think about cardiovascular disease from that perspective is really game changer, because it really throws out a lot of the centralized ideas in regards to what causes cardiovascular disease. Of course they have some things right, but I do really think it's. It's enlightened me to view cardiovascular disease from that perspective, because my father passed from it, so I've always been on the hunt for, you know, that, that fundamental function, that once it goes AWOL, once it becomes dysfunctional, then that leads to a whole cascade which which leads to, like heart attacks and strokes and all those sort of sort of things.

Dr Max Gulhane: 19:29

Yeah, I'll make a couple more points just on on the Melanofcin before we move on. And I guess the way I want people to think about it and I mentioned this in my optimal skating health course is that these, these proteins, these light sensitive proteins, are there for circadian entrainment, meaning they're there to help inform your body about time of day. And just like we've got that, that central clock in the hypothalamus, you've got all these other clocks that exist in in all your other organs. You've got 70% of your genome is is regulated by circadian timing mechanisms. So I really feel like the one way of thinking about this is the body has evolved this spectacular way of gathering light information so it can time this exquisitely complicated mechanism and organism within the most fidelity as possible. And when you confuse those signals by essentially spamming the melanopsin In your skin and your eyes, you know 18 hours a day with isolated blue light and you know that that is a problem on a very, very fundamental cellular, subcellular love.

Zaid Dahhaj: 20:43

Yeah, yeah, purely because it just dysregulates circadian biology. I mean, once you go against that, that evolutionary fundamental, then you know everything is on the table in terms of chronic disease and dysfunction. So I think that's a very important point to mention. And then Also one thing that I do want to mention with all of the options in general is that they're tied directly to the vitamin a cycle. So they're tied to 11 cis retinol and you know, once you, once you destroy the vitamin a cycle through artificial light, which is very common through throughout society, I mean, you can lead to some some serious downstream effects there.

Dr Max Gulhane: 21:22

Yeah, and look that that is kind of the one reason why Dr Jack cruise is talking about the harm of blue light. Is this idea that we're destroying melanopsin, it's basically liberating vitamin a From this retinol, from its binding to, to to these vote non-visual photoreceptors, and that that is having down a downstream cascade and and generating Meta mitochondrial dysfunction so that that kind of gets a big technical but that's. That is a it's very interesting and groundbreaking concept that you know, no one I believe no one else is really addressing.

Zaid Dahhaj: 22:04

Yeah, I actually have a question for you. Do you know of course, a lot of parts within the body are able to regenerate Do you know if non-visual photoreceptors, specifically, are able to regenerate if you, if you take a circadian friendly approach?

Dr Max Gulhane: 22:16

Well, I think that's that's the key point about why this whole whole system is is derailing so badly is because it's a longer wavelength, like the infrared and the red, that regenerates the, the Melanopsin and other non-visual photoreceptors. So if we take a holistic view and we imagine that with on the savannah or you know, in our ancestral past, we would have had that early morning red and infrared, as you know, we would have hit all the different wavelengths of UV and then that would have faded. So you know, we've stimulated melanopsin during the middle of the day and obviously when, when red, when blue light is its brightest, but then later in the day. That whole process is that is, enabling the, these non-visual photoreceptors, to to repair and regenerate. And then I think that the clincher is is the light at night, because if we're not getting any Darkness, any true darkness, because of light pollution, and we're continuing to stimulate them, then I think that's a kind of another whammy in terms of preventing them from regenerating them and damaging them.

Zaid Dahhaj: 23:26

Yeah, and I assume melatonin definitely has a big part to play in terms of its antioxidant capabilities with that regeneration correct.

Dr Max Gulhane: 23:34

Yeah, yeah, I believe so and so. So that's that's. That's talking about Melanopsin, really, and that's good. And in terms of the actionable advice, I you know, in my course I say you basically have to cover up and I post a photo of a I don't for the last Star Wars fans out there. It's a photo of the sand people in in the in the first Star Wars movie and they basically covered up completely and essentially that's what we want to be doing, because Not only is that Melanopsin in our skin, in our Blood vessels, as we talked about, in our eyes, but it's also in the fat tissue and and that was that other Paper when they discovered that there was Melanopsin in the adipocyte, in those subcutaneous white Fat tissue. That is another reason how metabolic health can be implicated if we're constantly under, could be deranged if we're constantly under artificial blue light.

Zaid Dahhaj: 24:26

Yeah, and I'd also like to cover the opposite end of the spectrum as well with natural blue light. So a while back I wrote a thread. I found some research showing that, I believe natural, natural blue light actually makes your adipocytes, your fat cells, smaller in size and it actually increases the rate of Fat burning within those adipocytes. So that's another reason why I've come across a lot of people who have reported that you know, after sunbathing, consistently, not only do they look leaner, but from a physiological standpoint, they actually are leaner. So it's interesting to see this dichotomy between toxic, artificial blue light and natural blue light from the sun.

Dr Max Gulhane: 25:04

Yeah, look, I love you that you brought that up because it gets to this idea about personal fat threshold and Within kind of metabolic medicine within low carb medicine. It's this this idea is that when we reach this arbitrary Personal fat threshold, then we start depositing fat ectopically, yeah, you know, within the abdominal cavity, in in visceral white adipose, but then also within organs like within the liver, within within the muscle. So so what? I think the limitation of this approach is that it doesn't give us enough clarity about the factors that are influencing this personal fat threshold. And you know, researchers like Tucker Goodrich have done a great job at showing that some of the the linoleic acid breakdown products can Can influence that personal fat threshold.

Dr Max Gulhane: 25:54

And, and obviously I've talked to Blazor Boris recently and he Really makes a strong case that it's actually the deuterium in the sea dolls that are really causing basically a butch known as a Macro molecular crowding in the cell and you basically get an energy excess and the mitochondria start failing. But the the reason why what you've talked about is important is because it speaks to this idea that light is influencing our fat, our personal fat threshold, and Light is influencing the adipocyte pathophysiology. So not only you know these inherent, inherent personal genetic factors, not only dietary factors, but our light environment is going to dictate whether those cells are simply Developing larger size or or, and then potentially spilling over or in inflammatory compounds, or if they're able to Replicate or maintain a more healthy size. So yeah, I'm really glad you brought that up. Have you noticed that you've empirically noticed that when you put your clients in the sun, that their weight loss improves?

Zaid Dahhaj: 27:02

Oh, substantially. It's not something that I was particularly looking for as well, until after I started getting reports from some of my clients Not even people who were clients, just people who followed some of my advice on sunbathing and doing that properly. But that led me down that rabbit hole and I'm very grateful for it, because to me that was an astonishing fact. Just the idea that you could get leaner and reduce body fat to a certain degree just with sunbathing and light that's just astonishing from my perspective, which is why I also put light above nutrition, because I think there are other factors involved. I still think nutrition is important, but that goes to show that, in my opinion, I think light is just the most fundamental aspect of this game.

Dr Max Gulhane: 27:45

Yeah, let's riff on this for a moment, because what we're discussing is why Dr Jack Cruz has put sun before food, why you've just mentioned the same. I will mention a quick mouth study that basically shows the opposite of what you talked about. That was a study where they had a six-month period of two groups of mice One were fed the same diet but one was on a shift work schedule, so chronic circadian disruption With the exact same diet. The circadian disrupted mice had hypertrophy of their dipocytes, so again, not an ideal responses. They had fibrosis, they had raised inflammatory markers in that fat tissue and they were insulin resistant. That shows I know it's a mouth study, but it gives us a really good proof of concept of this idea that it's not just the food that you're eating, it's the actual light environment that you're eating that food in that can potentially influence your metabolic health. The other thing that I want maybe you can talk about is and I think this is central to this idea of weight regulation and sunlight is the POMC system.

Zaid Dahhaj: 29:05

This one. I think the two most fascinating systems in my opinion are non-visual photoreceptor system and POMC. In general, every mammal has something called the POMC gene and that leads to a protein called POMC as well Proopiomelanocortin. Essentially, this protein is fundamentally stimulated by natural light and it's also, in my opinion, stimulated by artificial light. So, just like general, when you stimulate this let's say you stimulate it through sunlight, the ideal way, circadian-friendly way then this protein has about maybe seven or eight biological peptides that are cleaved to this protein. You have things like alpha, beta, gamma, msh, melanocyte-stimulating hormone. You have ACTH these are just abbreviations. You have CLIP. What are the beta? Endorphin is a huge one, an opioid peptide. Just from this mere fact that light stimulates all of these peptides that are some of the most powerful ones in nature. I think that has huge implications for not only the clinicians out there, but for even decentralized health coaches or people who are in this work.

Dr Max Gulhane: 30:16

Yeah, and the centrality of POMC to the organism's physiology. I don't think it can be understated because, as you mentioned, acth is produced in the pituitary gland and then goes down and signals the adrenal cortex to make cortisol One of the most fundamental and hypothermic pituitary adrenal axis. That's one of the most fundamental pathways in the body is it's a cleavage product of POMC. Obviously, we know that having a persistently high cortisol will push your blood sugar up and that is the effect of cortisol. It's a glucose corticoid. Glucose means glucose. Why people get a spike of your blood glucose in the morning is because you've got a natural cortisol rise. So cortisol is liberating, it's promoting gluconeogenesis, it's liberating energy. So if you're stimulating POMC in the wrong way, then of course you're going to be dysregulating glucose metabolism. So I think that's a really important point.

Zaid Dahhaj: 31:24

Yeah, and not only through ACTH as well. So you're raising cortisol through that mechanism. You're also raising insulin through CLIP as well, because CLIP is an insulin secretagogue, if I have that correct. So it stimulates insulin production from the pancreas, and once you have that two-way punch, so to speak, from artificial light, then I think that can set up problems for people who have type 2 diabetes and other metabolic dysfunction.

Dr Max Gulhane: 31:52

Yeah, and I really Uncle Jack or Jack Cruz, basically said that on my podcast about almost six months ago and I've really done my best to verify this with my own reading. I haven't found a lot about CLIP other than some very, very old papers. His point is that basically the artificial light is hijacking POMC. So just as natural ultraviolet light is going to give us the correct or physiological expression of the POMC peptide hormones in a way that optimizes our physiology when we're constantly under blue light and we're having a dysregulated light environment, then it's essentially hijacking this gene to turn up our blood glucose, promote hyperinsulinemia all around. But if someone has more information on that, I'd be very willing to look in. But it makes sense to me that that is what's happening. The other ways of let's also talk about how sunlight could potentially act as a very, very strong signal to reduce eating.

Dr Max Gulhane: 33:01

Because you've mentioned beta endorphin and you mentioned alpha MSH and I wanted to make the point that the pharmaceutical industry knows how critical the POMC system is to appetite regulation and that started when the first that leptin hormone was discovered and they realized that leptin, which was made in that fat cells that we've just talked about before, is actually signaling all the way up to the hypothalamus and binding to receptors on those POMC neurons to inform the body about the energy state. So they knew about that and they still do, and they were designing medications and one of them is called bupropion naltrexone. It's a combination and that particular drug was designed to basically stop a negative feedback loop by blocking the effect of beta endorphin to kind of reduce people potentially affect the alpha MSH and reduce people's eating. So they're aware that this is an incredibly powerful system to regulate appetite. But what they don't tell you is that you can stimulate alpha MSH to reduce your appetite by getting out and getting ultraviolet light.

Zaid Dahhaj: 34:16

Yeah, yeah, and I believe, like I mean generally, most of those peptides are appetite suppressants, so you don't only have like one or two working in your favor on that end, you have almost all of them working in your favor.

Zaid Dahhaj: 34:29

And I just think that it goes against mainstream orthodoxy, because this idea that sunlight can suppress appetite and influence leptin in such a way that it can improve your metabolic function and if you are in a more negative relationship with food, that just goes against everything that mainstream centralized medicine has to offer, and I think the difficulty is in trying to explain that to mainstream practitioners especially. Yeah, so I mean, when it comes to Pomsae and all of the peptides that are our appetite regulators, I think this just goes to show that we really have an uphill battle, to say the least, in terms of translating this work into not only the understanding of everyday people but the understanding of centralized practitioners, and just the fact that centralized medicine is embedded in bed, so to speak, with big pharma and big food. That just makes it more difficult. But I think we're doing a good job on within our little decentralized realm online and translating that into people getting results.

Dr Max Gulhane: 35:32

Yeah, I mean, I think I really want to make a really strong point for the listener and kind of do a checkpoint here and what the implication of what we're talking about is that if you regulate your circadian biology, if you stimulate Pomsae in your eye, in your central nervous system, in your skin, then you will lose and your white fat tissue, you will lose weight and you will become leptin sensitive and you will become metabolically healthy. And the idea that insulin resistance and what essentially mitochondrial dysfunction is at the root of all these chronic diseases is that what that means is that you're not a customer anymore for an industry that is built on people being sick. And I made this point to a previous guest and I have seen the degree to which one person can be dependent on a medical system and it is very sad, but you can just take someone with end stage type 2 diabetes and the amount of resources and medical care they require. So they have got end stage kidney disease so they might be on dialysis because they've got such severe diabetic nephropathy.

Dr Max Gulhane: 36:50

They have got diabetic nephropathy, they're potentially blind or vision impaired so they're not able to drive themselves anymore. They might have severe peripheral vascular disease, they might have diabetic ulcers, so they might be having vascular bypass surgery to maintain use and function of their legs. And then they have these macro vascular complications, so they might have had a stroke, they might have had previous AMIs, heart attacks, and the list of medications that someone with this condition is on is they're on a statin, they're on blood pressure medication, they're on multiple oral hypoglycemic, they're on injected insulin. So all that to say, it's a massive resource and effort that needs to care for someone like that, and what's I and I discussing is that, if we're regulating acerocating biology, a lot of that could potentially be avoided.

Zaid Dahhaj: 37:52

I firmly believe it too. I mean, just think about how much money especially like specifically where I am in the US we spend on healthcare. It is an astonishing amount. I mean, we're talking about billions of dollars, maybe even trillions, I don't know. But I think this just goes to show that if we can educate people the proper way and really get that light bulb flicked on, then we can take people from a more centralized paradigm to a decentralized one, and the ultimate goal for all of us is to just be in a healthy state of living, just to be healthy in general, so that we can enjoy life and make the best of it. But I think that's a very important point just all the medications and all the other complications that stem from insulin resistance specifically.

Dr Max Gulhane: 38:36

Yeah, and maybe we can talk about the kind of prevailing narratives around the sun.

Dr Max Gulhane: 38:43

Because if people are accepting what we're talking about, which is that there is amazing health benefit to be had from sun exposure and from regulators to acerocating biology, then we really need to address the sticking points and the resistances that people might have to that.

Dr Max Gulhane: 39:03

And the interesting point that I'll also make is that that same compound, alpha MSH, that regulates appetite in your hypothalamus and your brain. It is the same compound that is influencing skin darkening and therefore melanin synthesis in your carapnocytes in your skin. So I think that is a really elegant explanation of how central UV light is to body weight regulation. It's the same compound, the same string of amino acids in a different place, is tanning your skin and making melanin, as is stopping you eating. I think that says a lot, that says an amazing amount, but your dermatologist is not able to describe not that I'm a I haven't met one is able to describe the leptomalana cord and pathway, or pom-C, in a way that makes that clear. So maybe, zaid, you can talk about the role or the role of the sun and how we can use it safely.

Zaid Dahhaj: 40:08

Yeah, Well, there are definitely a lot of misconceptions out there and I think I really enjoy being at the front, you know, being at the front line, so to speak, in terms of like tackling these bad ideas in regards to sunlight, because there are a lot of them and unfortunately, a lot of the board certified ophthalmologists and dermatologists are pushing these ideas. Even the skin cancer foundation in the States is pushing the idea that there's no such thing as a safe tan and, knowing what we know, that's just an absurd statement based off of first principles thinking. Because not only like UVA and UVB, for example, are the two centralized boogeymen that a lot of people say you should avoid. They say you should practice that avoidance around, but, like we mentioned, uva stimulates nitric oxide production. It also plays a role in other physiological functions. Uvb is the very light wavelength that's responsible for stimulating vitamin D3 production. So, how you know, where is the like? Where's the silver lining here?

Zaid Dahhaj: 41:12

How does it make sense that centralized medicine demonizes the sun, uvb, specifically in terms of vitamin D3 production? But it hails. Vitamin D3 is a super hormone. So I just think there's a disconnect there. And in terms of like melanin, for example, a lot of people have this idea that melanin once you start to get dark, then that's where you should stop sunbathing. That means you've had enough, so to speak, because if you go above that you have potential toxicity. But I think that idea is absurd because in my opinion, knowing what we know with melanin the fact that it disassociates the water molecule, it's responsible for human photometabolism, it's anti-venom, anti-inflammatory antioxidant, the list goes on I think once you get a tan and all people of all skin types can get a tan then that that really leaves the door wide open for more sunbathing. So, like almost everything in centralized medicine, the idea that they're pushing is fundamentally wrong and it's the opposite of what they're saying that is more correct.

Dr Max Gulhane: 42:17

And I, yeah, go on, go on.

Zaid Dahhaj: 42:20

Oh, I mean, I was just going to go on a tangent about healthy sunbathing practices and stuff like that, but that's a little bit of a rabbit hole.

Dr Max Gulhane: 42:26

Yeah, I wanted to make the point that it's a logical inconsistency and, as you said, I like to similar to you. I like to think things from first principles. So if we have an undeniable, unarguable biological need for ultraviolet light for those pathways that you've just mentioned, but yet it is killing us, how much should we get? I mean, this is the kind of cognitive dissonance that we're all asked to engage in if we're following these, you know, complete UV avoidance narratives, which is so 20 minutes, 10 minutes? I mean, where is that? It's just an arbitrary construct. There's no solid scientific or reason to basically along that line of reasoning. So what I would really encourage people to think about is that there is obviously a disconnect here and the same thing that is giving us life can't also be giving us disease. And it might be the case that how we're using the sunlight is the key point and what the lifestyle is of people today and is perhaps contributing to their disease, their skin cancer, melanoma, rather than the sun inherently, or rather than the sun used in an ancestral context.

Zaid Dahhaj: 43:49

Absolutely, absolutely 100%. It's definitely the lifestyle around light. I mean just the fact that people take these recommendations and they practice sun avoidance that's a big part of the discussion. Being under artificial light 24 seven, that's a huge part of the discussion as well. And then other finer things that not a lot of people are aware of, like sunglasses, contact lenses, sunscreen. Even just being clothed up and not intentionally sunbathing with most of your skin in the game, that's a big factor as well. So I think in general, like any conventional prescription of like 10, 15, 20 minutes of sunlight, you can throw that out the window because it is all an individual game.

Zaid Dahhaj: 44:33

What we need to understand is that all mammals, all human beings specifically, can develop their melanin, and I've seen this time and time again. I literally have hundreds of comments on Twitter from people who are like you know, I'm a redhead, my daughter's a redhead. We've practiced early AM sunlight exposure for filigree and production, and then we've really dosed ourselves up in a way with midday sunlight to not burn at all and to gain all of its benefits. And also, like this concept of the solar callus is absolutely huge, like I analogize it to just approaching the gym Like nobody would go into the gym and try to squat 250 pounds when they have no gym experience, like it's absurd. And so I try to teach people that you have to approach sunlight exposure the same way, and then eventually you will get to a point, no matter what your skin type is, to where you can spend five, six, seven hours in the sun without any problems whatsoever.

Dr Max Gulhane: 45:32

Yeah and great points. And I'll add some nuances here which I always make. When we're discussing deliberate sun exposure, and that is, if you're taking photosensitizing medications, which include medications like isotretinoin, like the antibiotic doxycycline, like a whole bunch of other medications, then you really you can't be doing deliberate sun exposure. This also includes immunosuppressing medications. So if you're on high dose of glucocorticoids, if you're on medications for to specifically prevent transplant rejection, biologic agents, all these where you're modulating your immune system, you're essentially pharmacologically messing with your body's ability to deal with the whole medic stress that is the sun. So I want to really caveat that.

Dr Max Gulhane: 46:20

And if you're on these type of medications, then deliberate sun exposure is not going to be for you and I would encourage you to hopefully work on or address the livestock causes of whatever is going on so you can move past and then get some deliberate UV exposure. But prior to that UV rise is the red and infrared. That is safe and that is going to be safe for everyone. And that's going to be even safe for people with red hair, because another point is that people with red hair do have a high risk of malignant melanoma. But if we understand the different wavelengths of light, if we can look at and conceptualize the different wavelengths of sunlight appear at different times, then we can really tailor the approach to allow people to gain benefit of natural sunlight without and perhaps, if they're especially medicated, as I mentioned, without putting them potentially at risk of UV damage if they're not ready to lift the 200 kilo barbell, as you mentioned.

Zaid Dahhaj: 47:26

Yeah, yeah, and there's the nuance there that I didn't even know about the photosensitive medication. So that's an excellent point. But this idea of atrophic skin and just having unadapted, weakened, dysfunctional skin because of the lifestyle factors, that's the foundation of all of this, and I think it's important to understand that UV does technically damage your skin, but your body is infinitely wise in its ability to respond to a hormetic stressor and get stronger as a result, assuming you do the right things around lifestyle. So I mean, you're speaking my language. That's 100% there.

Dr Max Gulhane: 48:04

Yeah, and great point, jade, because neither of us are suggesting that UVA isn't carcinogenic or UVB doesn't have the potential to be carcinogenic. That is unequivocal. What both of us are saying is that if it's used correctly, if the body's hormetic ability is preserved, then that is not going to be injurious to the organism. And it involves doing everything that we've mentioned involves getting that early morning read in infrared first to precondition the skin. It involves building up this idea of a solar callus. So there's proper ways of doing it and there's improper ways of doing it.

Dr Max Gulhane: 48:47

And I like to draw an analogy to the cholesterol and heart disease, because the predominant narrative within cardiology and preventative cardiology is that any level of LDL, total cholesterol or APOB beyond a very strict, arbitrary cutoff is depositing a plaque in the arteries. And there's no allowance or nuance in that argument for a situation where we can safely have a higher LDL or higher APOB. And it really ignores all that other evidence. That includes things like people living longer with higher LDL, facts of immune function that the LDL particle has, the fact that it's traffic energy, fast-sufferable vitamins. All that gets thrown out the window. And I think that that analogy holds in centralized dermatology and this discussion around the sun, because we're basically throwing out all the benefits of UV light exposure, including the nitric oxide, including the pom-C, including the vitamin D production, and when we're telling people to put UV blocking sunscreens on all day to cover up and do everything that you mentioned in this advice.

Zaid Dahhaj: 50:02

Yeah, yeah, and it's extremely damaging to society as a whole. It's only making the state of our health worse, on an individual and societal level, and I think it's extremely sad, which is why it's important for us to tackle these ideas head on, because we just have no room for them. There are archaic ideas led by a system that is just not catching up to what the evidence provides.

Dr Max Gulhane: 50:25

Yeah, and before we move on I want to talk about Nelina next. I just want to read out a couple lines of a paper and I am not the first person to reach for epidemiology and I think that it inherently has a range of flaws, but when we're looking at a hard endpoint like mortality, then it can be much, much higher quality. And I just want to quickly read out for the listeners. This study is called Higher Ultraviolet Light Exposure is associated with lower mortality an analysis of the UK Biobank cohort study. So this paper was published. In what year was it published in?

Dr Max Gulhane: 51:12

It doesn't make me exactly when it was published, but I'm just going to read the conclusion out for you, because I think this really sums up very elegantly in unequivocally what Zayad and I have been talking from a mechanistic point of view.

Dr Max Gulhane: 51:28

So the discussion says we find that the UK Biobank participants with more active sun seeking behaviors and who lived at lower at latitude with a higher average UV exposure, have a lower risk of all cause, cardiovascular disease and cancer mortality. These results are consistent for two very different types of exposure, suggesting that it is UV exposure and not an unmeasured variable that leads to the lower mortality risk. And they go on to say that these results add to the growing literature suggesting that UV exposure is associated with lower mortality risk, and it lists a whole bunch of other papers. So this is the square that this is the question we need to ask to people who are trying to tell us to avoid the sunlight. That is a pretty unequivocal, pretty obvious in finding that you're going to live longer, you're going to get less cancer and cardiovascular disease if you have a deliberate sun seeking exposure.

Zaid Dahhaj: 52:33

Yeah, yeah, and I've come across a lot of research in terms of, like, the farther you go from the equator, the higher incidence of cancer and all these other chronic diseases out that you expose yourself to. And I think it just makes sense from an evolutionary perspective, because we evolved in the cradle of civilization, so to speak, around the equator. So you know, it was only thousands of years after that which we traveled to higher latitude areas and then we set ourselves up in those little little camps, so to speak. But that just in my opinion, I think it just makes sense, especially knowing all the mechanistic things that we do.

Dr Max Gulhane: 53:07

Yeah, and to cap this off, and one more very interesting point, it says participants with more active sun-seeking behavior also had lower crude mortality from skin cancer. From skin cancer, so you can get, you're still going to live longer even if you're developing these skin cancers. So and an inverse relationship between solar UV exposure and cancer mortality. So, in terms of living longer, which is the goal of your clients, which is the goal of my clients, my patients, this is what we want to do and it's pretty obvious that UV light is part of that. Let's talk about melanin, because what you talked about just mentioned earlier is that everyone's told to get to the point or the centralized advice is. Even tanning is a problem, but you've described a couple functions of melanin and I think it bears out a little bit more, deserves a bit more discussion about the benefits of melanin.

Zaid Dahhaj: 54:10

Yeah, absolutely so. You know melanin. When people think about melanin they only think about tanning, and I think that's unfortunate because if you search through the literature, melanin is probably the most powerful polymer out there. I mean the most, one of the most powerful compounds out there. And it makes sense from an evolutionary perspective because this is how we evolved as mammals.

Zaid Dahhaj: 54:29

But, like I said, I mean anti -venom. In some cases it responds to certain venoms. In terms of protection, it's a powerful anti-inflammatory, powerful anti-antioxidant, it's an immune modulator. So I've even seen evidence that it helps with HIV patients especially. And then the biggest one in my opinion, the one that I've gone deeper on, is the idea that melanin is. Melanin's relationship with light and water is central to human photometabolism, which is a foreign concept, especially to centralized medicine. But it's this idea that whenever photons strike your skin through midday sun exposure and you have adequate melanin, then your body uses the photoelectric effect to then cleave off or produce electrons, which we know has a very powerful effect on health. So those are just a few of the things that come to mind, but really everybody should be orienting their lifestyle around building more melanin, because it is such a powerful compound.

Dr Max Gulhane: 55:36

Amazing and there was work of, I believe, dr Herrera, who has shown that, who has done pioneering work on the evidence for the ability of melanin to essentially allow us to derive energy from the sun.

Dr Max Gulhane: 55:52

And listeners to my podcast will know that we've talked about the electron transport chain, we've talked about mitochondrial function and how electrons are the input into that electron transport chain.

Dr Max Gulhane: 56:03

So it's fascinating to think that we've evolved, or nature has evolved, this compound that allows us to essentially harness solar radiation to improve or to improve the function or to essentially derive energy. I believe that he initially noticed that when he was looking at the retinas of a range of people with retinal diseases, with age-related macular degeneration and those basically, where there was melanin, there were less blood vessels, indicating that there was essentially an ability for the tissue to operate through or just by harnessing that light energy through melanin. So, yeah, melanin has got so many compounds and, look, we haven't even talked about the kind of this idea of melanin as a biological semiconductor, and this is getting into quite a deep realm of quantum biology. But if we're really again thinking about the body as an electric being that's running off electrons and protons, then it's also got this function as a biological semiconductor, so I don't know if you want to make any comments about that. We're happy to keep it at a more higher level for people, if you don't.

Zaid Dahhaj: 57:25

Yeah, I mean in terms of the biological semiconductor. That is certainly a deep rabbit hole that I need to explore more of, especially in relation to quantum biology. But I would like to share that. You know, melanin is not just one form of melanin. You have three forms of melanin. So you have neuromelanin in the brain. The destruction of neuromelanin through various means has been implicated in potentially, parkinson's disease, dementia, a whole bunch of other neurodegenerative disorders.

Zaid Dahhaj: 57:53

And then you have you melanin, which is responsible for the browns and blacks in nature. It's more protective from UV. But then you also have pheomelanin, which is responsible for the reds, oranges, yellows, the pinks. I mean, if you look at flamingos or like a red fox, that's an example and this is typically what lighter skinned people have. So even in relation to melanin, people tan differently, and this is also something I want to reiterate, because I feel like there's this, there's this unconscious like expectation that a light skinned person is supposed to tan exactly the same way as a dark skinned person. But that's not true. So I think if we can orient ourselves around these different types of melanin and then peg ourselves individually around what type we have more of, then we can use light in a responsible way to maximize that type of melanin.

Dr Max Gulhane: 58:47

Yeah, great, great points. And what about? What about some takeaways for people? So they've listened to us talk about the health benefits of sunlight, of of in terms of their weight, in terms of maybe their cardiovascular disease risk as well. So how, how do you approach advising people to get suns safely, so that they're not inadvertently doing damage?

Zaid Dahhaj: 59:14

Yeah, so, like we mentioned earlier, a huge focus on early AM sunlight. So this can be anywhere between sunrise and about, I'd say, nine or 10 AM, depending on where you are. That is what's going to help with a skin protein known as filigree that has a protective effect on the skin. There are some other factors that that have to do with that as well, but you're essentially just priming your skin for higher UVA and UVB conditions, and in just that alone I've seen people experience some great results in terms of not burning, building melanin during midday, so forth.

Zaid Dahhaj: 59:47

Outside of this, I think, the sunglasses discussion, the sunglasses, sunscreen, contact lenses. There's nuance here, but in general, ditch your sunglasses. Your eyes are a muscle, so you just have to get acclimated to natural light Contacts. I usually recommend that people transition to reading glasses so that it's easier to actually transition into sunlight. And then there are other things as well. You're not causing a hypoxia of the cornea, you're not influencing the light spectrum in a negative way. And sunscreen, of course, knowing what we know about neuroactoderm the fact that the skin of your brain, eyes and tissue are essentially the same then just removing all sunscreen and replacing that with early AM sunlight is a key part. And then, of course, protecting yourself from artificial light as much as possible, especially after sunset, because you want melatonin and the circadian mechanism to function properly.

Dr Max Gulhane: 1:00:43

Yeah, that's a key one, and people will really do damage if they're getting off a plane jet lagged and their circadian rhythm is up the creek and then they get out from Sydney Airport, they go to Bondi Beach and they pretty quickly look like a prawn, and so don't be one of those people. The other point I wanted to make is about dietary, and we actually have some good evidence, even some randomized evidence, that increasing omega three in the diet basically reduces photosensitivity, and there was a couple of papers in people who had some quite obscure genetic photosensitivity conditions and simply putting them on a higher omega three diet and this in this one was supplementation reduce their burning and their photosensitivity. What I think we compare that with, if we're putting together the pieces of this puzzle, is that people burn less when they get rid of refined seed oils. So when they cut down on omega six fatty acids the refined ones from canola oil, vegetable oil, corn, soy, grape, seed, cottonseed oil they stop burning or they burn a lot less. So I think together that speaks to this fundamental aspect of the fatty acid composition of our body and our skin in terms of influencing our burning ability.

Dr Max Gulhane: 1:02:07

And we already know that drugs can influence photosensitivity. As I mentioned, doxycycline, acetretin no one. We advise you to avoid the sun when you're on those drugs because they influence photosensitivity. So any comments about your dietary approach?

Zaid Dahhaj: 1:02:24

Yeah, I mean definitely more animal-based, ancestrally aligned nutrition approach. I think, of course, the vegetable oil topic has been it's been hammered on so much over, especially Twitter, and it's starting to get into mainstream as well, which is nice. But, in general, just making sure that you focus on grass-fed, grass-finished animal fats that are low in deuterium. Wild caught seafood I'm absolutely a big advocate of so any shellfish as well oyster, shrimp, scallops, wild caught sardines, mackerel, that's. You know, at the end of the day, the food that you eat and the fatty acid composition is what makes up the quality of your skin. So I think that's a very important point. But it's also important to emphasize that you don't need to cut out vegetable oils completely. The human body is really resilient and I've seen clients experience great results even when they're not so like regimented about avoiding vegetable oil. I think the most important thing is to just get those natural Omega-3 and other foods into your diet.

Dr Max Gulhane: 1:03:29

Yeah, interesting observation. I think everyone will benefit from getting lower down in those seed oils, but interesting that you've found that people can still get benefit even if they don't. So that's a fascinating and really useful takeaway for the listener. Any final thoughts or anything that you'd like to mention before we wrap up?

Zaid Dahhaj: 1:03:52

Yeah, I would just like to say, you know, at the end of the day, the sun is to be respected. It's a double-edged sword, but I think we need to err on more of the side that the sun is the very thing responsible for all life on Earth. We've evolved with it ever since, you know, mammals came out of, came into existence, and I would really like to see more people just have that curiosity to be able to look into this work that we're sharing here, because there are a lot of bad ideas that are being shared by centralized medicine, and it's unfortunate because, of course, there's corrupt influence. You have the Rockefeller-inspired centralized medical system. There's a lot to it, but at the end of the day, we need to respect the sun and make sure that we approach light environment properly.

Dr Max Gulhane: 1:04:33

Great advice and I really would echo that. This is a Hormetic Stressor. Uv light is a Hormetic Stressor, which means that you need to use it wisely, you need to allow yourself to recover appropriately and, as we talked about, you have to prepare before you do any kind of deliberate UV light exposure. So I think that those caveats need to be well well received and not not. I don't think so. People don't take out what we're saying out of context and, yes, the end of the day, we want to. We're doing this to help people optimize their health, live longer and prevent disease, which I think we've. We've basically showed that the sunlight is incredibly integral to to that. So, zaid, thanks for your time. Where can people find you? And maybe let us know what you're, what you're offering and and how people can engage with you?

Zaid Dahhaj: 1:05:23

Yes, you can find me at Zaid K Dahaj on Twitter. On Instagram as well same handle. I'm sure you'll have it in the description. In terms of what I'm I'm focused on, I've I'm transitioning away actually from online coaching and I'm going to work with people in person within the Southern California area, so that's going to be very exciting. And, of course, I'm going to put light environment at the very top of this work and I really think that my my mission now is to really educate everyday people on on just light and how important it is and all the nuance associated with it. So that's going to be my main focus.

Dr Max Gulhane: 1:05:56

Yeah, fantastic, we'll include that information so people can can get in touch with you. And yeah, follow Zaid on Twitter. He's got some amazing educational content which is very, very thoroughly interesting and and well researched. So thanks very much, mate, for coming on and great to talk. Thanks, max, it's been a fun time.