50. Nguni, the World's Most Adaptable & Resilient Cattle with Clive Biggs
Dec 24, 2023
Dr Max Gulhane
Clive Biggs is an expert breeder of Nguni, an indigenous African Sanga cattle breed. He operates Nandi Ngunis Stud in Eastern South Africa, which has the reputation as one of the highest quality Nguni breeding operations in the world.
In this podcast we discuss the breed attributes including legendary fertility, robustness and farming efficiency. We also cover Clive's unique grazing techniques and why I think these cattle are the future of ruminant regenerative agriculture in the world.
TIMESTAMPS
0:00:00 The Resilience of Inguni Cattle Farming
0:23:22 Nguni Cattle's Impact on Agriculture
0:38:18 Breeding and Defense in Nguni Cattle
0:46:42 Grazing Patterns and Stud Breeding Methods
01:05:32 Breeding Nguni Cattle for Farmers' Success
Follow DR MAX Website: https://drmaxgulhane.com/ Private Group: https://www.skool.com/dr-maxs-circadian-reset Courses: https://drmaxgulhane.com/collections/courses Twitter: https://twitter.com/MaxGulhaneMD Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dr_max_gulhane/ Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/podcast/id1661751206 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/6edRmG3IFafTYnwQiJjhwR Linktree: https://linktr.ee/maxgulhanemd
DISCLAIMER: The content in this podcast is purely for informational purposes and is not a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on this podcast or YouTube channel.
Clive Biggs is an expert breeder of Nguni, an indigenous African Sanga cattle breed. He operates Nandi Ngunis Stud in Eastern South Africa, which has the reputation as one of the highest quality Nguni breeding operations in the world.
In this podcast we discuss the breed attributes including legendary fertility, robustness and farming efficiency. We also cover Clive's unique grazing techniques and why I think these cattle are the future of ruminant regenerative agriculture in the world.
TIMESTAMPS
0:00:00 The Resilience of Inguni Cattle Farming
0:23:22 Nguni Cattle's Impact on Agriculture
0:38:18 Breeding and Defense in Nguni Cattle
0:46:42 Grazing Patterns and Stud Breeding Methods
01:05:32 Breeding Nguni Cattle for Farmers' Success
Follow DR MAX Website: https://drmaxgulhane.com/ Private Group: https://www.skool.com/dr-maxs-circadian-reset Courses: https://drmaxgulhane.com/collections/courses Twitter: https://twitter.com/MaxGulhaneMD Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dr_max_gulhane/ Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/podcast/id1661751206 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/6edRmG3IFafTYnwQiJjhwR Linktree: https://linktr.ee/maxgulhanemd
DISCLAIMER: The content in this podcast is purely for informational purposes and is not a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on this podcast or YouTube channel.
Today I'm speaking with South African cattleman Clive Biggs. Clive is a second generation operator of the Nandi and Goonies Stud in eastern South Africa. Nandi and Goonies has the reputation as one of the highest quality and Goonie breeding operations in the world. In October, clive recently sold one of his bulls for a world record price for an Goonie bull. Regular listeners will know that I see regenerative farming as a key piece to the optimal human health puzzle by creating an abundant future of nutrient dense food while simultaneously regenerating depleted land and making use of land that is unfit for cropping. The tribal African and Goonie cow seems to be the best breed for this purpose, as its natural characteristics and lack of human breeding interventionism make it incredibly robust, incredibly fertile, incredibly fit for purpose and requiring minimal, if no, chemical input.
Dr Max Gulhane:
You might hear my enthusiasm in this interview because I'm truly astounded at the natural attributes of Clive's animals, even out of the Goonie animals that I have heard and the previous guests that I've had on this subject. I think a vision that we can collectively strive for is a food system that meets and provides abundant access to red meat, particularly animal fat and grass-fed animal meat, and having thousands of smaller scale operations, perhaps raising in Goonie or other types of cattle in a fully grass-fed way is the way forward. I hope you enjoy this podcast with Clive and if you're a farmer or interested in running Goonie, then contact me via email or social media and I can put you in touch with someone. Now onto the podcast, clive, tell us about your story in terms of your Goonie farming and how did you arrive at where you are at the moment, and give us all the background.
Clive Biggs:
Okay, so basically my dad's the one that started our Goonie stud and he used to trade him and his brother with cattle and so at that stage they were sort of buying in cattle from different areas, different types of cattle, and what they noticed when they bought some Goonie heifers from Zul'lan how well they actually adapted to the farm with no sort of interference. They picked up condition and it was sort of an easy maintenance animal. There wasn't a lot of work to go into them. So then they noticed when the chaps came to buy cattle a lot of them were buying the colorful cattle and so that was one of the reasons why my dad actually started with Goonie was he just realized how easy they were to farm. So then he went to Zul'lan and they purchased bulls and some females and that's how they started, and they started in 1977.
Dr Max Gulhane:
Yeah, quite a long time ago. Tell us where exactly you are in South Africa, and I think it's interesting when we talk about the resilience of the breed and its characteristics.
Clive Biggs:
Okay, where we are at the moment is a place called Sedeval. It's on the border of the Eastern Cape and Quazulu Natal and we're also close to Lesotho. So where we live is very mountainous and rough ground. So our ground sort of runs from about 1600 meters up to 2100 meters. So we get very harsh winters with snowfall. So we have hot summers with tick-borne diseases and cold winters, and then Goonie's youth last all the ground. They go right up into the steep sections. They're animals that can walk easily, so we're very fortunate to have a breed like that where we farm.
Dr Max Gulhane:
So your dad got into the farming, as you mentioned, in the late 1970s and he started building his herd and it sounds like he tried a bunch of cattle breeds of different types. And I chatted to Ed Schroeder about this and he was telling me how, for a long period, the South African government was promoting the British breeds and it was almost seen as something that people were trying to encourage these British type breeds. But what your dad found, and I think what a lot of farmers found, was it's actually the indigenous cattle that were the best kind of suited to the environment. So how did you get involved?
Clive Biggs:
I guess, having the operation been started by your dad, you know well we've grown up with the cattle, so you know that's where our passion I mean it's come from. I was basically when I was born, he started with them and you know it's just over the years working with them. They're such a easy breed to farm. We don't have people when there's carving season, we don't have problems with carvings. Our cattle cove out in the camp so we basically they run like wild game. Basically it's just with the stud. We just tag them and do the recording of births etc. So but besides that, the cattle look after themselves. In fact they look after us. You know, that's as simple as that.
Dr Max Gulhane:
It's amazing and I talked to Jake Wolke, one of the regenerative farmers here in Australia, about this idea of an apocalypse cow and if there was a complete breakdown in modern veterinary care and modern kind of an agricultural system, you would still have this Inguni cow completely able to be thriving despite the absence of human interventionism, and it sounds exactly what your herd is.
Clive Biggs:
Yes. Now, well, if you think about it, I mean, you know, thousands of years ago they the cattle that moved down the coasts and that, with all the challenges, and they made it. So. You know, in those days there was no medicines and stuff like it's all natural selection and hardiness, and you know that is what's made this breed. And you know I always say you know, we mustn't try and change breed, just keep them natural, let them, and we can just help out selecting the more fertile, the ones with the good milk and sort of. You know, but with minimum interference. You know, we don't want to change this breed. They to me it's the perfect breed.
Dr Max Gulhane:
And let's talk about these characteristics. So you mentioned that you don't need to help them with carving and for the non-agricultural listeners to the podcast, and this is a pretty important thing, because if the cattle are having babies and the labor is obstructed in obstetrics we call it obstructed labor and you need to intervene by all kinds of instrumentation and in human medicine. The worst case scenario is you need to do a herion section. But tell us about the importance of this easy carving as it relates to raising cattle.
Clive Biggs:
You know the thing, what we found is like a lot of other breeders will bring their cows in close to the house in small camps, and they're feeding those cows because you know there's obviously not enough food in the winters. So they're feeding them just to keep an eye on their carving. But you know, basically the workers are checking them twice, three times a day to see if there any issues With our cattle. We don't need to do that, they just do it on their own up in the camps with no interference. You might get one case where a calf's turned or something, but you know, then we'll help it, but sort of most of the time you don't need to help them at all. All we do is we just go and count our calves out in the camps and just admire. You know every calf is like a lucky package. You never know what you're going to get with the color patterns, and so it's an exciting time for us when they're carving.
Dr Max Gulhane:
Yeah, and a lot of my listeners have also read Western Price and I really recommend anyone who hasn't to read the work of Western Price. And he was basically an anthropologist who visited remote communities all around the world in the 1930s and observed their health and their habits, and he talked about an Inuit community where the women simply go out into the bush and they come back with their baby and obviously what we're talking about is just natural birth and it sounds like the Inguni are the complete equivalent of that, whereas you know, I've heard one Hereford operation one year and not to pick on Hereford, not to cast dispersions but they had something like a 40% pool rate, meaning that 40% of their cows had to be pulled out of the birth canal. So to see that the Ingunis don't need any of that completely, that's pretty remarkable in my mind.
Clive Biggs:
You know, and the thing is with the Inguni it's obviously with thousands of years of natural selection. Even if you use British pools on them, those cows determine the coughs are and they'll still give birth without assistance. So you know, that's why a lot of people don't realise how super cow the Inguni is. You know, it's only basically when you've been working with them and you've had other cattle that you realise how easy. You know there's just, it's such a pleasure to form with them.
Dr Max Gulhane:
Do you have lions in other predators that prey on them?
Clive Biggs:
No, not where I live. We have jackal lynx, and you know so. Not we don't have lions in that, but Ingunis have horns. So and we've seen it, you know you'll get a cow when she's just dropped her cough. Jackals are mainly after the after birth, but those cows keep them away. So I've had an experience where my dad now came across one up in the mountain and there were three jackals trying to get to her after birth and she was just kept spinning around the cough, you know, protecting it, and we watched it for a while and they didn't get anywhere near that cough.
Dr Max Gulhane:
Do they eat the Deplacentus?
Clive Biggs:
Yes, they do. But you see, what happened was this one had just given birth, so the jackals were, they were there and she, they just couldn't get it from her. You know she kept, she was protecting the cough more than anything. But yeah, so eventually the jackals, we went there and they had gone and then, yeah, they do, they eat it up so as soon as and that's one thing about Inguni, that they cough quickly. So when that cough drops, that cows on her feet quickly and the cough will be on his feet quickly. And while she's eating the placenta that coughs drinking already they super quick.
Dr Max Gulhane:
Yeah, and and they'll. I've heard stories of breeders who are using Inguni calves or bread Inguni calves compared to their other breeds and the other breeds are kind of doughy, you know the the coughs like you know where am I just landed? Into this mortal realm. And the Inguni calves, already you know dodging, jumping up and difficult to catch. And it makes sense, because the selection pressure of predators was at a degree that didn't exist, probably for those other breeds.
Clive Biggs:
You know, and within hours, that coughs actually running next to its mother. It's not even, you know, just walking, though it's like a, if you look at, like a bless buck. When they have their little one, it's quick and that's well any antelope and it's on its feet and it's running right next to its mother. And then Inguni's do exactly the same thing.
Dr Max Gulhane:
Wow, the color pattern is a very interesting feature of the Inguni cattle and it's one that I think the commodity market is kind of trying to squeeze out of cattle breeding. And for the listener, if you've gone and eaten McDonald's Angus Beef or you've gone to a restaurant and it's Angus Beef, basically that's a black animal and it's a black angus and it seems like the commodity market in Australia and I believe in South Africa too, Clive is basically prizes the animal because it's black and this is just like a phenomenon of the market and it doesn't necessarily reflect the quality of the meat or all these other characteristics that we're talking about. So what's your take on coloring and maybe you could explain to the listener the Inguni coloring patterns?
Clive Biggs:
You know that in my opinion, the color patterns is another thing that makes it so unique. You know, not every animal looks the same and what's. You know we also have a theft problem in our country with cattle theft and they reluctant to take an Inguni because it's got a specific color pattern. And if you've got photos of your cattle and that you can identify your animal because not, you know, every Inguni is different. So we're with other cattle. If they all look the same, you know it's difficult to prove it's your animal if they've changed or tampered on the brands etc. But you know, when it comes to the meat and that Inguni meat is its first prize, it's healthy meat, it's got the yellow fat, you know, from the grass feed and it's just a. It's a healthy, quality meat. And the thing that makes the Inguni, I think, sort of better than other breeds, in my opinion, is the way they sort of run. Most farmers run them out extensively. It's not, you know, cooped up in little camps where they're being fed sort of unnatural food.
Dr Max Gulhane:
Yeah, and that's a. I never thought about it that way. In terms of theft appearance, it's almost like each Inguni has a fingerprint that's visible yes, that's visible by anyone and you can't forge. Whereas if you had a block coloured cow, you know, anyone who's a thief could, as you say, tamper with the branding to obscure that ownership, but you can't fake the very, very unique colour patterns. Ed Schroeder mentioned that there's a very deeply entied cultural link to the Zulu tribes who have all kinds of interesting names for those colour patterns.
Clive Biggs:
Yeah, I know there's a lot of different names and you know the, even with their sort of ceremony, some of them they want specific colours for you know, whatever they, you know that family's having Like if they're celebrating something, they're looking for specific animal. So that's where the Inguni also, you know it's in their culture and you know that's one of the fortunate things where we farm is there's always a market for especially Inguni females. You know they've got a thing called La Bola. When they get married the future husband's got to give the father-in-law cattle and they want Ingunis. It's just in their culture. So you know there's always you can ask a premium price and they'll always go quickly.
Clive Biggs:
The only problem we do have in this country is with the oxen. You know, with the young oxen it's not once. They sort of get about 300 kilos. There's no discrimination. But there is a discrimination against the Inguni as a weena, purely because when they go into feedlot they fatten quickly because they you know an animal that's, you know it's used to tough conditions. So when you put it in an easy environment it just fatten up quickly. So you know some of them will discriminate. They say it puts on too much fat and then hasn't reached the basically the coca-sars that they wanting. But I don't see it as a problem to me the quicker you can move those cattle out and they've got enough fat on them and it's healthy meat, I think it's a bonus.
Dr Max Gulhane:
Yes, and for the listener, the oxen is essentially a stear, a neutered male calf, and they being used for working, or what are the uses other than meat for oxen?
Clive Biggs:
You know they still using them in. You know areas for plowing they plow with them, they pull. You know fetch water they use ox. You know little scotch cots they put out the gather wood. So you'll find in a lot of the urban areas, the rural areas they've got it's like trails where you can see where they're dragging a lot of wood to their houses, for cooking etc. So you know the oxen, it's part of their culture. As I said. Then, good knee.
Dr Max Gulhane:
Yeah, and can you talk about fertility? And that's, I guess, a bit of an extension of this idea of them? The Inguni cow is an amazing creature of reproduction and you've told us how easily they carve and they don't need pulling. But talk to us about the actual fertility. And how many cows, how many cows are each of these cows having in their lifetime?
Clive Biggs:
You know it all depends on your area too, sort of on the sweeter felts. You know where bulls run in. They don't. They've got no basic carving season. The bull runs in with the cows all year round. I mean, there are farmers that I've heard of a 22 years old and she's had 20 calves. You know you often get 18 year old that's had 17 calves. So they carving sort of in those areas at the age of 18 months to 20 months their first calf and then you know they every basically year they have a calf, some of them even less than a year. So that's why you'll get a cow with 18 years old and had 17 calves. Their fertility, they super fertile, there's no doubt about it. You know, to me it's probably the most fertile breed that you can get.
Dr Max Gulhane:
Yeah, and it's hard to think that this isn't anything other than you know nature's kind of you mentioned, like you go out and they have a cow and you come back. It's like a money printer where they all you do is you give them grass and you and they just reproduce. Yeah, you know the.
Clive Biggs:
Inguni's. Like I said, if you look what you put in and what you get out, there's no breed that can compare that. You know a lot of the guys they forced to get calves every year and to get their sort of big calves and that they they're putting a lot of money into their cows to get that way. With Inguni it's low input and they and they, those cows, are weaning over 50% of their weight naturally. So you know a lot of people will measure. They always talk about the weight of their weiner instead of saying you know sort of the beef produced per hectare, like they would in maize, or you know they'd say tons per hectare. So if you do it in that sense, there's no breed that will beat the Inguni cages of beef produced per hectare. Nothing you know.
Dr Max Gulhane:
And that's a really important point when we're talking about this kind of wider narrative about beef consumption in society and they're essentially beef consumption and beef agriculture is under attack, as far as I'm concerned, by a range of interests, most of them lying in corporate industrial monocropping industries that are profiting massively from a high chemical input business model.
Dr Max Gulhane:
But I think what you've described, clive, is such a great rebuttal in many ways, when we're thinking about what cow to use, which is, if we're going to use one that is a really high feed efficiency and is able to we're able to raise more beef per hectare, then that's going to that's a massive advantage and a massive, I guess, pro in favor of highly efficient beef consumption. Can you talk a little bit now about the fact or what they're able to eat and I guess that goes into feed efficiency, because I've talked to on previous podcasts about the fact that these are these animals are not only grazing but they're actually browsing as well, and I think that's relevant. Especially, I've talked about in Goonie is a potential animal for a lot of marginal country here in Australia the fact that they can eat food that is not palatable to other breeds. So maybe tell us, talk to that a little bit.
Clive Biggs:
You know, within Goonie they they graze and browse, like you just said, which, and they definitely browse a lot more than other breeds of cattle. And within Goonie they sort of they have a higher urea level in them so they, you know some farmers are using sort of urea based licks to get their cows to eat harder grasses. So it's exactly what the Goonie has. It does it naturally eating. So our farms are sort of mixed sour felt and we've actually eaten the sour felt virtually out, because then Goonie's you'd lost all of it and the sweeter grass has spread and it's actually improved our farm over the years.
Clive Biggs:
You know, and a lot of people, that I actually had a chap yesterday visiting me to come and view our grass species and that and he was he just said you know it's phenomenal, phenomenal how well these cattle have utilized all the grass. When you look across the sort of boundary fences on other cattle you'll see a lot of hard grasses and it's just purely on that simple reason that they don't graze it like the Goonie does. And in the sweet felt, you know the Goonies, you'll see them, you know, eating out of the trees a lot, where other cattle you won't see it.
Dr Max Gulhane:
It's incredible hearing you describe this, because it makes me so excited, and I think that not many people are actually understanding the implications of what you've just said for agriculture and for the world, because so many problems that we have agriculturally are the loss of grazing land, desertification, poor quality grazing, overuse, and what you're just describing is that the Goonie has the potential to be able to essentially regenerate these landscapes by the fact that it grazes so nonselectively and therefore is allowing all these more favorable grasses that perhaps other cattle are then able to eat to come back. So I'm actually blown away. I think it's so important that what you're telling us right now.
Clive Biggs:
You know, in some other areas there's sort of what we call the Karoo felt. It's very sensitive areas. You know straw areas and when you travel sort of the northern Cape, those areas you'll see you won't see many other breeds besides the Goonies and sheep and basically the reason for that is the Goonies. They can walk long distances to water. So in the Karoo you'll get an area, big camps and the water is very sparse and other breeds. Just you know they'll lie around the water troughs and overgraze around the water troughs. Where the Goonie won't, it'll go out and they'll go graze a wide area and then come back for water and carry on, you know. So I know in some areas where they said the sheep had actually they were damaging the felt from overgrazing, some farmers have, you know, brought in Goonies and got rid of their sheep and they actually shocked in to see how the felt is recovering.
Dr Max Gulhane:
Yeah, it's huge. I think that when more people understand this technology, its mother nature has created or shaped this technology over whatever 10,000 plus years, and now we've got this perfectly adapted, natural way of converting completely inedible plant matter into highly efficient source of human food and a tool to regenerate our landscape. So, yeah, I'm very much excited. Clive, I think it's incredible what you're describing the temperament of the animals. So this is relevant, I think, for more of the farmers in the audience, because you don't want a cow that is going to be aggressive or difficult to handle from a livestock point of view. So talk to us about the temperament of the Inguni.
Clive Biggs:
You know the Inguni. I think it's because for thousands of years they've actually lived with the people. You know they crawl them, they crawl the rot on their houses. So I always say Inguni is a people's cattle because it loves people. They're very inquisitive. When you get visitors come visit us on the farm they can't believe how the cows will all come to you and stand around you. And you know they inquisitive and they just love people.
Clive Biggs:
Like the only thing you do have is cows when they've just dropped their cough. Some of them are very protective over their cough. So for about a week some of them they won't let you close to their cough. But that's just natural instinct. It's not a temperament issue, it's a protective issue. Now, after about a week or two, those cows, once they cough, begin strong and they feel that's not under threat. Then that all goes away and they'll become tame again. But there's no animal. If anyone comes to our farm they're always amazed on how tame the cattle are. But in saying that you do get some wild animals, like in any breed, and we cull them, we get rid of them. So our herd. Basically we don't have a temperament issue at all.
Dr Max Gulhane:
Yeah, and it's a great segue into talking about the bulls particularly. I can't remember who exactly I was talking to, who was describing their use of another. I believe it was another Sanger cattle breed, maybe it was a, or it could have been Brahmin, it could have been a Brahmin bull and essentially that when they put the bull in the paddock with the Inguni cows, the thing kind of got tired after about servicing maybe 20 cows and it couldn't keep up with the rest of the cows. So talk to us about your bulls and maybe we'll talk a bit later about those specific bulls. But in general, what is the Inguni bull like?
Clive Biggs:
Well, you know that's one point where the farmers always talk about the Inguni being this super motherlon. But I always say it's not just a super motherlon, it's the whole breed as a whole is just a super breed. There's no other breed bulls that can cover as many cows as Inguni bull. And you know the reason for that is the Inguni bull isn't the heaviest bull but they are fit, fit, fit bulls. And you know, like we've got in our stud we run 90 cows to one bull and that's in a three month season. And then we're getting 87 calves, you know, out of one bull, 85 calves. So you know it is a mature bull sort of. So a five, six year old bull. You know you can load them. You can load them 100 cows and you'll cover them.
Clive Biggs:
And you know where we live, it's very mountainous and it's amazing at the bulls by the end of the season. They're not thin but the muscle definition is unbelievable because they're running up and down, up and down. So by the end of a breeding season those bulls are like super athletes in my opinion. You know they've done their job and they've been covering. You know we get up to six, seven calves in a day from one bull, it's, you know, when the stud. Obviously that doesn't mean they've been served exactly on that day, but we've had it in the past and sort of four calves. So when you're doing your birth notices you actually like it shocks me to see that a bull can do that and they do it. It's unbelievable.
Dr Max Gulhane:
It is not a funny thought to think about. The bull is getting fit, running up and down, doing hill sprints, you know, having fun with the ladies and doing it 100. I mean, I'm not familiar with other breeds in terms of the numbers, but I haven't heard that kind of ratio ever before.
Clive Biggs:
Now other breeds. I'll talk to you about 25, 30 max. I'm purple, so I mean these bulls are doing four times as much plus, if not more. And you know, and that's just on my farms, which it's not flat ground, it's up and down, and you know. Then you sort of wonder but this bull, how's he coping? He's sort of from this cow to the next cow, then he's up the mountain, then he's down and then, you know, the water's down the bottom.
Clive Biggs:
You just don't know. You know when does this bull rest? But they, you know that I've sold bulls to farmers, even in the crew, where it's harsh, and when I sort of, we always phone a couple of months later to find out how the bull's doing, and they'll bar a three year old bull, put him in 50 cows, 60 cows. And then I ask them well, how's the bull done? They say, in fact, the bull's gained weight and he got 100% conception. So you know, it's that makes me feel good because you know, without interfering in the breed, they've just proven that. You know, they don't need man's interference to perform well.
Dr Max Gulhane:
Yes, and other breeds, might? You're talking about the condition, other breeds? The bulls actually lose weight and they lose condition because of the stress of continually the demanding activity of reproduction. So, yeah, it's very stark that difference that you're describing and it's yeah, it's very interesting.
Clive Biggs:
The you know what, what we've also noticed with, like our bull selection. You know we're very, very strict on bulls, so we'll only keep probably about 5% of our bull coves as bulls, and the only reason for that is we only want the best to go out there, and what we do is, after weaning, the bulls are put up up in the mountain. It's very rough ground and they left there just on a sort of a simple winter lick. They go through heavy snows, cold, us winds, hard felt, and then at the end of the winter any bulls that have fallen to pieces we cull. So basically left with only the best.
Clive Biggs:
And I think over the years that's one of the reasons why our bulls and that are adapting so well to the other breeders. And so you know, there's a little bit of what we'll call man's interference there, because, but if you think about it, in over thousands of years only the fittest survive. So you know the bull, if you bring your bulls in and you pamper them, call it that, look after them, they all gonna make it. But if you put them under harsh natural selection, only the best are gonna make it, and so that's why I think the Engoones have done so well.
Dr Max Gulhane:
Yeah, great point, Clive, and I really want to emphasize this because what you described earlier is that the Zulu people and the tribal people were having some influence on the selection of these animals, but not in a way that seems to have caused a detrimental effect on the breed. And what I mean by that is if you look at the way people have bred pug dogs and the fact is that now the snouts are so short that they have upper respiratory, they have other airway issues, they get obstructive sleep apnea and there's all these negative problems that have arisen from human specific selection. But what the Inguni has had is that gentle kind of selection through the Zulu people, and then what you're doing is essentially providing that very gentle selection, human selection pressure, but most of it, most of the time, it's nature, but you're just doing a little bit here and there to ensure that the best bulls are reproduced. So I think that's important.
Clive Biggs:
Yeah, and if you look at Inguni compared to another breed, it's all the natural things that over time that have made it what it is. If you look how long its tail is and flexible, with a big brush for swatting flowers, you know the other breeds you get some breeds. They've got these short, thick tails. They can't swat a flower and in Africa you have to have a breed that can swat its flowers. If you look at their skins, you know they're so sensitive. If a little insect lands on it it quivers its skin. You know so it's got the ability of all natural things that, like you don't. Like a normal person doesn't think about it. But when you're working with these cattle every day and for years you've been, there's things that you notice and you know it just shows how amazing nature is.
Dr Max Gulhane:
Yeah, it's the most advanced technology. That's actually how I think about it. It is the most advanced technology that has been invented and that we couldn't come up with, and there's all attempts to grow kind of lab based meat and all this kind of hubristic endeavors by humans. But you know, nature has perfected it, as we mentioned.
Dr Max Gulhane:
The other point I wanted to really make with regard to selective breeding is that this idea of low methane genetics and this topic arose in a group and basically there's a new impetus of selection pressure and this is coming from government and regulatory bodies who are concerned about methane emission from cattle. And one of the ways that commodity producers are responding is looking into selectively breeding their cows to not burp and fart as much methane out. And when I read that, I thought that that is just an absolute recipe for long term degeneration of and male selection of your breed. If you're deciding to choose one metric that is not relevant to the survivability of the cow, but because some bureaucrat and paper pusher is making that as their impetus, and then you're potentially moving an entire breed or entire herd towards an arbitrary metric that they're the expense of what? Because we can't see the trade-offs that mother nature makes when they're doing natural selection. So yeah, do you have any comments on that?
Clive Biggs:
You know, my opinion is that's where we are fortunate, because we're farming with a breed where we're running them naturally and, like I said earlier, our cattle is basically we run them, we ranch them like wild game. Some of our farms don't even have working facilities on them, so when they're going to be worked they get brought home, but we basically it's nature looks after them and they look after the felt. You know that's what I was saying. Everything's done naturally. So the cattle browse graze definitely the meat healthier. You're not going to get that where you cooping cattle up in a small area like feedlots and that's where all this burping and stuff is coming from. It's not the natural environment. And that's where the indigenous breeds you can do it with them. They don't need all that fancy food and stuff. Yeah.
Dr Max Gulhane:
Yeah, no great, great points. The idea of pest resistance you mentioned. They have a very sensitive skin and if something lands on it the skin can ripple. So they've got such fine control of their skin to kind of ripple and defend against something like fly. But what are their defenses against various pests?
Clive Biggs:
You know what we do is we've got ticks and we got Asiatic, african, redwater Gorsic. And you know, when we tell people we haven't dipped our cattle for 18 years, you know a lot of people don't believe us. But I've actually shown other beef farmers that Angunis is super flexible. So what you'll find is the ticks will be packing on the udders and they will literally turn their body around, lift their tail up. In the end they can lick it at the back where other breeds will never do that. They're not flexible enough. And then on the next you'll see them grooming each other, and that's why Angunis always stick together. If you come to a camp, you'll see the herd. They always in groups and they groom each other. So they lick and their tongues are very rough, so they actually getting rid of most of the ticks themselves, naturally. So when it becomes an irritation, you'll see the cows rubbing on trees or whatever, and then they you'll see the grooming taking part.
Clive Biggs:
So, yes, our cows get full of ticks in that, which is a big problem for other breeds. They dipping, they're using chemicals and porons and all that. Our cattle don't. They don't even you know they're not coming into the working facilities for all that. So they're just staying out naturally. And then when it comes to parasites, they definitely have far more resistance than other cattle. What we have noticed with Anguni is in areas where it's very wet you know, constantly wet you will get sort of like conical fluke, liver fluke, affecting some, but not. It's minor compared to other breeds. So you know, that's they again. Nature's made them what they are and that's why we must just keep them as natural as we can and not interfere and try and change them. Just keep them natural.
Dr Max Gulhane:
Yes, and there's an animal ethics aspect to this which Jake Walke helped me understand, which is, if we're using an animal that doesn't have these attributes and perhaps in an area that they shouldn't be, the animal is going to get sick. And the corollary of a sick animal in a situation that it shouldn't be in is it get stretches, it gets antibiotics, it gets all this veterinary care. So the solution isn't to have a vet on call and with a big bag of medicines and all this chemical. The solution is to use an animal that doesn't need the chemical in the first place, and that's exactly what you're describing, clive, with, with the Ingooni animal. So I think that's just an added to the massive, long list of attributes of these amazing creatures.
Dr Max Gulhane:
And another facet to that is it means that we don't need to. We don't, I guess, influence residue or leave residue on the meat in terms of animals that we're going to eat. Because you know, I think that is an underappreciated issue, which is contamination of the final product in commodity feedlot fed beef and you know the, the, the from a health point of view, and the. Obviously, my listeners will know that I advocate for a carnival diet for people who are very sick. It seems like the fully grass fed beef is necessary part of that healing protocol for the most sick people. Some can tolerate any kind of beef, but the sickest seem to need the fully grass fed that has had no kind of chemical input. So I think that's another reason is that the Ingooni is a tool that allows us to to to raise chemical free beef. Yeah, and, and talk again about the meat quality, because you touched on that really briefly.
Clive Biggs:
You know the meat. It's a healthy meat, you know. So I mean there's, there's Ingooni meat, has got good marbling. It's got, you know, the fats it's more a yellow fat, like a more oily fat. So all the people are no, prefer the yellow fat. But because there's nothing worse when you're eating fat that's not natural, like out of a feedlot something, and the the fat sticking to your pellet it's that white fat. You know it's just. You know it's not for me. You know everyone's got their own personal preference, but I just prefer the natural beef. There's no hormones, there's no, you know, like we don't dip, we don't do any of that. So our meat is organic, basically natural meat.
Dr Max Gulhane:
Yeah, yeah, fantastic. So so you I guess some you cannot such a good overview of the of the breed as as a whole and and maybe we can talk a bit a bit now about again your specific kind of operation. So you mentioned this idea of and it sounds like you're running almost like a, an Goonie Jurassic Park you just, you just let them go, you bring them back when you need them. So so what, what? What else is kind of unique to your, your operation and your property? That that you, you do with your operation.
Clive Biggs:
You see, what we've done with our grazing patterns is, you know, obviously with running a stud we can't keep massive cows in one herd, because you know, with a multi-sire you know if you've got too many pools in a confined area because our farms are camped, we've. We try and not make the camps too small, but you also don't want them too big for our grazing management. We sort of do a rotational grazing, so the animals are in the area for specific time. So we we begin to watching our felt that we don't overgraze or even undergraze. You know the, and it's it's actually amazing, the laugh that you get in your felt with the way we farming now. So what we'll do is in the breeding season our herds are about 100 cows in a herd, close to 100. And they sort of rotated depending on the cam size. But probably they're in a camp for about five days and then they move to another camp and what we've found by doing that is your good grass species, they're taking sort of about 30 to 40% of it off and that actually stimulates it. And then your more unpalatable grasses. They don't eat it, so that grass actually starts dying off. You know, over time Obviously everything takes time but it's. We've been doing it for years now and we've seen a massive improvement and we don't believe in any burning of any felt whatsoever. So our humor spilled up in our felt is is excellent, the laugh.
Clive Biggs:
When you go in early mornings you'll see it's full of sparda webs which help with tick control, everything. It's all natural stuff that you know we practice. And then when the bulls come out we lump our cows into bigger herds and then what we call the hoof action and you know sort of rotational grazing and the dunging. So they'll dung and urine in areas and then move and then that gets time to recover and our soils are getting more and more fertile and our better grasses are getting more and more and our sort of the more unpalatable grasses are getting less. So in winter, when it's not the growing season, those cows will actually eat that unpalatable grasses down into the ground. But in summer, when it's seeding and that they, you know that it sort of dies off more where the one that's being. It's like almost when you mow your lawn In summer if you mow it it'll get thick and thick and just grow faster and faster. It's the same as a felfel. So your better grasses, they get stimulated and actually multiply yeah that's very interesting.
Dr Max Gulhane:
Did is this or was your father? Did he implement these procloses initially or did you bring these in?
Clive Biggs:
Yes, you know, my dad's always been someone that forms with nature and you know, like he always tells us, he's made lots of mistakes in the past. You know we need to, we don't need to do the same mistakes. We miss and we've, like, basically grown up because our farm, my brother's, also part of the farming, and so we we've just spent, you know, days and hours and basically just grown up amongst our cattle and he's always taught us to observe the felt and and you know, sort of if the, if you see a problem, fix it. You know. So like in some places you'll get. When you get a big storm, you know you might get a landslide and a bit of soil washing. Then we'll plant grass immediately and try and stop it, you know, and just preserve our ground. So you know, if you're, if you're grass and your farms aren't looked after, you know it's and you're going backwards, everything's going to just suffer. So if we can sort of improve our felt as we go, our cattle will just do better.
Dr Max Gulhane:
Yes, and, and I think there was a famous Zimbabwean cattle farmer who said that most of Africa is over, overgrazed but understocked, implying that these types of intensive techniques are what's needed to kind of help help the grass thrive. Is there? Have you had contact or familiar with, obviously with Alan's savory in terms of these?
Clive Biggs:
your your protocols? Yes, you know they. They form in a different sort of area than us. So it's you know they. They sort of I think he's up a Fraburg area, those areas, if I'm not mistaken. So, or where? Where is he from? I've you know, I've heard of him, but his technique is similar to Alan's.
Dr Max Gulhane:
Yeah, yeah, and great, great stuff. And so talk to us maybe about the, the balls that you have sold recently and and there was one, I believe, in 2020, that set a record and then this year, quite recently, you've just set another record. So talk to us about these balls.
Clive Biggs:
Yeah, you know the other because you know my dad was I think he's probably the oldest stud breeder you know. So basically he had this vision of these Inguni cattle and he's always been very strict on selection. So, and only selection is under natural selection. He's now feeding the cattle and trying to find the animal that's outperforming the others on growth and all that. We, you know, we're not interested in that. We want animals that maintain their condition on natural felt and produce on natural felt. That's what we often so I think. With that in mind, over years we've bred a, a type of Inguni cattle that is like a no fuss animal that can adapt virtually anywhere. We've sold animals all over the country and we, you know, get very positive feedback on how they've done and performed and produced on. You know, those areas and some of these, like the first bull that you spoke of 1258, he was sort of bred out of his mother was one of our old bloodlines and then the father was from a depri stud, which was also an old stud, out of some of the best bloodlines. So basically it was the two bloodlines combined and we use that bull heavily. He's one of the bulls that was covering 90 cattle in three months with no problem. And what we found with his progeny is under our harsh conditions they kept their condition naturally, through the cold, harsh winter's, better than some other bloodlines which made them when it came to spring they were in good condition, better than some of the others. Therefore, when the bulls went in they were taking bull quicker, with no interference. So it's not like we pampered them or anything, just naturally.
Clive Biggs:
So, yeah, and his mother, I think, had had 13 calves at the time and, you know, a super cow. She had bred other bulls which were sold as bulls. The daughters were mostly retained in our herd. We had used sons in our herd out of that specific cow so that breeders from visiting on the farm saw his progeny and what they were doing. Therefore, I think that's why you know his pros was. You know it was a very good pros and we were just grateful. And then this bull. Now it's a similar story where his father was a bull that we bought in from patob's which was out of some of his best lawns, three of his top lawns, and the bull bred very well for us and the son of his was the same. We put him to 90 cows, got 87 pregnant, you know, and he's a bull. When you see him in the cows in the middle of the breeding season it looks like he hasn't even worked.
Clive Biggs:
He's just round and fat and solid and you know, the muscle definitions like unreal in his shoulders and back muscles. It's like a, like a bodybuilder almost. But he, yeah, he just covered them, you know, easily. And his mother was a cow that gave us 12 calves, of which every calf post screening inspection done by inspectors. We currently using another son at that same cow. He's a year younger. So you know, it's just bloodlines that have worked and basically when the breeders come to the farm I think those bulls sisters, brothers and progeny caught they are. And you know, that's why we had some breeders that actually joined groups to try and bother bulls. But this last bull has been bought by Oliver Redford from Brumfontein area.
Dr Max Gulhane:
Great Thanks for that summary. What is the state of Nguni in Africa? Because I've talked to some who've mentioned that there's a bit of dilution occurring in certain areas with Brahmin, with other kind of cattle breeds, and others have said particularly the cattle from the Makatini flat to remain some of the most pure. So talk to me about the breed as a whole in Africa.
Clive Biggs:
The other problem is with all the indigenous breeds. Like some other people are saying, bigger is better and unfortunately some other bigger bulls have been introduced into a lot of the rural areas and the cross with a hybrid vigor. You're getting a sort of a bigger calf and for that first generation it might look impressive. But the problem is then that cross animals never going to perform like the pure animal. So some of them they are crossing them, but we've had a lot of people saying that they want to go back to their old roots because their cattle they used to have far more deaths. There's far more deaths now. They're dipping more.
Clive Biggs:
Their cows aren't carving regularly because they're too big, framed for the harsh conditions and they can't afford the licks. So the cows aren't performing as well as what they used to perform, and we also I do Inguni goats as well as Inguni cattle and so we've preserved them. And I've had quite a few Zulu chaps contact me and they actually say thank you for preserving our cattle, because in our homelands there are very few left and they're trying to in some areas. I know in the Tugela Ferry area there's a group of goat farmers that have contacted me and they're buying rams from me because they want to get their goats back to what they were, purely because of the diseases tick-borne diseases and production. Like I said earlier, if you take the production per hectare, there's nothing better than those small, medium framed animals that are producing every year and there's far less deaths with the indigenous animals.
Dr Max Gulhane:
Amazing. It sounds like the Nandi and Inguni stud. It's not only the Jurassic Park, but it's also the conservation park as well.
Clive Biggs:
Yeah, it's just, I think, with us, because we, like, we love nature. So we spend probably 90% of the day outdoors and my dad's taught us to observe everything. So from bird life to cattle, to goats, to the grass, everything, we just try and preserve it as natural as we can. And we always say with humans. A lot of damage caused is by humans just not understanding nature. So if we can all just work together and work with nature, not against it.
Dr Max Gulhane:
Yeah, I very much echo those claims, those statements. The way I got interested in Inguni was because I met, I went to a farmers market and tasted some Inguni meat that was being raised on the Sunshine Coast in Queensland and the reason why that the Inguni were able to get to Australia was because a couple of breeders flushed their embryos in Africa and emigrated to Australia and they're able to basically repopulate Inguni here. So it's very exciting to see that it was able to take hold. Do you have any kind of thoughts about Inguni in terms of internationally and kind of expanding to other countries?
Clive Biggs:
You know, especially like Australia, is very similar to South Africa, other areas where you're sort of its extensive farming, should I call it like out your rougher areas. There's nothing that will compare with Inguni and the thing is just to get a farmer to basically start farming Inguni. Once you start farming with them, it's actually a pleasure farming. You know, I always listen to these other farmers and they're complaining about the feed bulls, they're complaining about things within Inguni. I'll just keep quiet and enjoy the. You know it's a pleasure farming with them.
Dr Max Gulhane:
Yeah, and it's funny because I like to. Obviously this is a mostly health podcast and I draw analogies to human medicine and I often describe the similarities between using lifestyle medicine with low carbon, carnivore diets and how doctors that I've talked to finally regain their passion and their love of medicine, because they're actually healing people again and they're deep prescribing medications and they're seeing people thrive. It's just, it's funny and amazing to hear you describe that same feeling when you talk about raising Inguni cattle, because it sounds like the same energy of finding joy in the process of using these cattle, because you don't have to dip them, you don't have to spend all this money on chemical inputs. So it's amazing how these analogies exist in farming and health and medicine and food. It's yeah, it's very elegant.
Dr Max Gulhane:
You know, we in a better.
Clive Biggs:
You know with the way farming is becoming, you know very expensive in this country farming with input costs, and you know I just see a big future for our breed. You know all the indigenous breeds, not just the Inguni. You know if you can have an animal producing with low input, no fuss. You know it's definitely the future.
Dr Max Gulhane:
Yes, and what's your vision for your operation for Nandi and Inguni? What are you guys going and what would you like to see in the future?
Clive Biggs:
You know, I just yeah, we just basically we're so passionate about the cattle, you know it's they basically like the family. It's not a, you know, we see it. As you know, we've all grown up with them. They've put us all through school, you know. They've fed us, they've basically they've looked after us and we've bought on farms. We've grown, you know, and it's all thanks to the Inguni breed. You know, we, where we formed it's rough country and it's not easy farming, but with Inguni it's, you know it's turned out to be. We love it and it's just our passion and, like I said, the cattle are looking after us. It's not like we sort of pampering. Looking after them, they, they do everything for us and in return we get the joy and the pleasure out of it. You know, what more can one want than that?
Dr Max Gulhane:
Yeah, fantastic. Well. Well, clive, do you have any, I guess, comments or thoughts that you want to share with with the listeners before we wrap this?
Clive Biggs:
on, you know. I would just say, like, if there are farmers out there, even if you don't live on your farm, and you're wanting an animal that can sort of you know, if you've got ground and you want to try breed there's, you know, try the Inguni, because they, they'll surprise you, you know they'll. They'll produce where you, with minimal input. And once you start breeding with Inguni, it's something that your passion will just grow. Like I said earlier, it's a people's cattle and the connection you build between them is it's and it's not just from your side the cattle you can see, they, you know, they love people, they are. I'd recommend, if you've got a chance to farm with them, go for it.
Dr Max Gulhane:
Great, Fantastic advice. Where can people find you and get in contact with you if they're interested in in following what you're doing?
Clive Biggs:
You know, will we basically, if they sort of Google just Nandi Ingunis? You know there's a lot of. We've had articles and write ups on our start and I think our contact numbers and that will be there. Or, you know, if anyone wants to get into contact with us, they can contact the Inguni society and they'll get our information from them.
Dr Max Gulhane:
Okay, great, Well, and I can include some of those links in the in the show notes below. So thanks, Clive. It was a very, very interesting and fascinating chat, so I really appreciate you your time.