53. How Fiat Money and the Adventist Church Corrupted the Food System with Matthew Lysiak

Matthew Lysiak is an investigative journalist and author of the book 'Fiat Food'. We discuss the corrupt history of the dietary guidelines in the USA, starting with the influence of Seventh Day Adventist Church in the early 1900s, as well as the Food Industry lobbying and capture of academic institutions to further grain-based & processed food recommendations.

Most importantly, we discuss the seismic changes in agricultural policies following the detachment of the US dollar from gold, and how this unleashed a cascade of events that led to today's processed food domination.

If you want to understand why processed food is so ubiquitous, then listen to this episode!
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TIMESTAMPS
00:10:32 The Shift in American Diets
00:24:07 Seventh-Day Adventists' Influence on Nutrition
00:39:44 Inflation, Fiat Money, and Manipulated Food
00:51:50 Pharmaceutical Industry's Influence on Health Recommendations
00:58:54 Fiat Currency's Impact on Food
01:10:00 Fiat System's Impact on Purchasing Power

Follow Matthew
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Twitter - https://twitter.com/Matthewlysiak

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Transcript

Matthew Lysiak: 4:13

when the separation between the dollar and gold occurred and the printing of dollars just continued and continued. At that point a Titanic shift occurred, because the Fiat Money Printer was then weaponized. They leaned into corporate and industry, which benefits and profits far more off of Doritos than they do off me, the Fiat Money Printer.

Dr Max Gulhane: 4:47

In this episode I'm speaking with investigative journalist and author, matthew Lisak, who has recently written a book called Fiat Food. The premise of the book is that the food system that we're dealing with today, that's a wash in low quality ingredients and refined foods like seed oils, and relates back to economic changes that happened in the 1970s, specifically the removal of the US dollar from a gold standard backing. This is a very interesting interview and we go into a lot of the societal level impacts and contributions to how we got to where we are from a nutritionally bankrupted food system. If you enjoyed this episode, then check out my episodes with Texas Slim, who has also raised these similar ideas. Hope you enjoy it, and now on to the podcast. Okay, matthew, thank you for coming on the Regenerative Health podcast.

Matthew Lysiak: 5:47

Thank you for having me, Max, I'm excited.

Dr Max Gulhane: 5:50

So you have written a very interesting book that was released not long ago called Fiat Food, and the title of the book is an expansion on a book chapter that was written by a gentleman called Saferdine Ammous, and I read that book chapter a couple of people sent it to me and that goes in depth about the processed food environment, the processed food industry and, more importantly, the monetary incentives behind why we've got such a behemoth processed food industry.

Dr Max Gulhane: 6:24

And for me that's relevant because I'm a medical doctor seeing the beginning and the end consequences of metabolic diseases, type 2 diabetes, chronic kidney disease and all these problems that are coming up our healthcare system. And so when I read and I found out that, matthew, you had written a whole book about this chapter, I immediately bought it and it is a fascinating read and it drills down into some amazingly interesting rabbit holes about how we collectively, as a society, have arrived at where we are. So I listened to one of your earlier podcasts and you have your own personal story and I really think that's a great place to start. I like to go through people's personal stories because it really gives us a good intro, so maybe you can tell us about your health journey and then how you ended up writing a book about fiat food.

Matthew Lysiak: 7:18

I grew up as a little boy into 80s I'm 46 right now, so I was on a cusp of when the nutritional guidelines began coming up. My teenage years of, say I think it was 1992, the food pyramid came out and that told everybody to eat a lot of grains cut down on saturated fat. My parents loved me. They wanted me to be healthy, so if they began feeding me a lot of grains, wearing the past, our family would have more meat. The latest health told us that that was killing people. So my mom kind of transitioned into some of these more processed foods.

Matthew Lysiak: 8:03

I developed what I would consider to be an addiction to sugar and flour. I mean, I ate so much processed garbage, including seed oils, that we were being told was healthy. I don't know your demographic for your audience, but in the 90s margarine was considered a health food, as were vegetable oils, and sugar wasn't considered bad in moderation. But moderating sugar for me was not an easy job. I don't know who it is for. Anyways, by age of 15, I got a cancer, I got osteogenics or colon in my leg and I remember and I had eaten a lot of bad food, like I wasn't just a moderate junk food eater, I had eaten tremendous amounts of sugar and flour and remember drinking Mountain Dew, a lot of Mountain Dew. And I remember lying in a hospital bed feeling like I had done something wrong to my body and that's why I was sick and asking the doctors how did this happen to me? And they said they're great doctors. But they were like we don't know why people get cancer. It could be genetic, it could be environment, we just really don't know. I did know like, intuitively, my body knew that I had just been treating it Like a trash can, and that spurred a real passion to try to find out what is healthy. How do I stay healthy? I don't wanna be sick again. Cancer's no joke. It's not good. You don't want it. I definitely did not want it and I wanted to try to live a life that would keep me upright.

Matthew Lysiak: 9:47

I became a journalist and my main job was to follow national news as it broke around the country, in particular mass shooting. So I worked at the fifth biggest paper in America, the New York Daily News, and I would parachute into these different areas and cover crime. I'd also cover political scandals quite a bit. So I've always had a skeptical view of power centers, and this increased with COVID, when I become accustomed to politicians lying and deceiving the public in various ways. But COVID it seemed like they had jumped the shark. It was like they weren't even really. They were no longer pretending to have our best interests at heart. I mean, I remember advice early on with COVID that when it was clear that overweight people were being affected, advice to stay home, maybe it's a good time to eat chocolate and get takeout, and there's very little mention of diet. Vaccine's a whole another story. But that sent me.

Matthew Lysiak: 10:58

Somehow I found, on a friend recommendation from a friend, safedin Amruse's book Bitcoin Standard, which led me to read to Fiat Standard, where I found the chapter on food where Amruse posited this theory that our food supply was being manipulated to make inflation appear as though it weren't as much of a factor, and I initially believed that to be a ludicrous theory. I thought, wow, I respect Safedin so much in terms of his economics, but this is a completely insane belief. But Safedin earned a lot of respect from his previous work. So I began doing a deep dive on that chapter and what I realized was that Safedin wasn't exaggerating. In fact I would consider his argument understated in that chapter and I decided to write a book.

Matthew Lysiak: 11:58

I reached out to Safedin, I let him know my credentials and who I was and we partnered on expanding his chapter into a book where, from an investigative reporter standpoint, where we examine the exact cause and how this happened to our food supply. And I think the results from my perspective were just remarkable when I was able to peel the curtain back, because it isn't even as if it's some hidden conspiracy, it's right there in front of you and you just need to see it and to put it together. And when you put it all together and you stand back a little bit, you understand why your neighbor standing in line at Walmart weighs 400 pounds but their grocery cart is full of ice cream and snack wells. So that was been my journey, but my journey continues. I've been carnivorous now for almost a year. I'm still drinking coffee, so I'm not some carnivorous. Find that to be non-carnivorous. I have my little weaknesses, but I found, since I've cut out eating processed foods and sugar, I personally also found the health effects to be amazing.

Dr Max Gulhane: 13:20

Yeah, and you're in fine company when it comes to journalists writing about nutrition. And Gary Taub wrote a book called Calories Bad Calories that was it kind of really pulled a lot of doctors down the low carbon metabolic medicine pathway. And then Nina Tysholtz has written a big, fat surprise which again has kind of really unveiled for us as practitioners what we weren't able to see. And maybe that's because we don't lack we lack the Pacific training in that area. But just like I like to speak to engineers on medical and scientific areas because they give a fresh perspective, I think what you've done with your book and journalists arriving at these topics with your fresh perspective is just it's amazing and what you can uncover. So I really want to walk people through this whole story because it actually needs a fair bit of time to do it justice. And I think a good place to start, which is kind of where you start in the book, is really framing what the health status of your country was. And again, this book is written mostly from the perspective of the United States, but it's relevant throughout the world because we in Australia and UK and every other country essentially, have followed the US lead when it has come to dietary recommendations.

Dr Max Gulhane: 14:44

So what you mentioned, and you make the point that in 1910 influenza was the most frequent cause of death and heart disease. When I say heart disease I mean atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease. So coronary atherosclerosis was basically unheard of and Dr Chris Kenobi has done an amazing talk about this. Physicians hadn't seen heart attacks. It was so rare it was almost unheard of. That was the kind of the background to everything. Yet meat consumption I mean people ate meat, people ate animal fats. So talk to us about this kind of prelude to everything that happened later in the 1970s and before and onwards.

Matthew Lysiak: 15:35

Before the 1900s, americans weren't confused about what to eat. There wasn't really big debates about it. If you could find meat, you ate meat, particularly red meat. If you couldn't and there was an issue of cost or finding the right nutrients, that's a different story Then maybe you would eat some plants or but it was always considered peasant food. People who had the beans ate meat. There didn't need to be dialysis of podcasts and books on this subject because, much like a lion knows what to eat and a cat knows what to eat when they're outside, people knew what to eat. It wasn't debatable and Not coincidentally, metabolic disease was virtually unheard of. I mean, it happened, but it was very, very rare, as heart health was significantly better than it is today, and what we saw in the beginning of the century was a shift where food or products that were not considered fit for human consumption began being marketed as food, and this was a very sophisticated campaign.

Matthew Lysiak: 16:59

I like to go back to the seed oils and Criscox. That was one of the really early movers and for the first time so people ate a margarine or a Crisco. In the beginning they didn't recognize it as food. In New York there were riots over retailers selling margarine and telling people it was butter. And there were laws passed and politicians were very upset about this. How could they push this food on people and tell them it's food? Because it's not food, it's a substitute. But it was cheaper and when World War II happened people didn't have as much disposable income. Margarine became more prevalent, criscox.

Matthew Lysiak: 17:55

For thousands and thousands of years people cooked with lard or animal fats. But Proctor and Gamble had an issue once, you know, they were candle makers and they used the wax, the cotton seeds, and they used it as industrial lubricant. But suddenly they saw an entire new market that they could tap into with this cotton seed waste product and they were able to convince people that this was food. And they didn't. Just there was a very clever marketing campaign that went into this, but it was also through funding nutrition science to justify their.

Matthew Lysiak: 18:40

You know, to justify, they weaponized nutrition science to basically have press releases that would then get printed into articles of the day that it was healthy for people and that lard was an unsophisticated kind of backwards way of cooking. So those were the early, early precursors to the change in the food supply, but I wanted to mention them because it's notable that they were really the first. Up until up until then, people ate animal products and occasionally berries or honey, if you could find it, but grains were rare. Sugar was was consumed, but not nearly to this extent, and people were much healthier.

Dr Max Gulhane: 19:30

Yeah, and it's a great point you make because it was insidiously added into the food supply, these, the hydrogenated cotton seed oil, and I know exactly what you're referring to. They use tactics like, like marketing to Jewish families in New York because it was, you know, this is a kosher cooking vegetable shortening. It's more hygienic. They they made cookbooks and they passed them around the housewives and said if you want to do the right thing by your family, you're going to use vegetable shortening, not that dirty pork lard. So there was these. It's interesting to think that even that far back they were using these corporate tactics to kind of weasel that waste product into the human food supply. And, as you say that it was, it was essentially promoted in the place of lard.

Dr Max Gulhane: 20:22

And we're going to talk about Eisenhower's heart attack, but I actually think that that was one of the key reasons why atherosclerotic heart disease actually started taking off, which was the increased consumption of cotton seed oil. And what about soy oil? Because that was another product that, again, people would have eaten very little of. But now soybean oil reflects one of the most consumed polyunsaturated oils and cooking oils in America. So how does the soy fit into it?

Matthew Lysiak: 20:57

Yes, soy was also considered a waste product that people would eat in times of famine. But and I know we're going to get into the seventh day Adventist church later they were really instrumental in promoting soy as an alternative to meat to stem human reproduction and carnal, carnal feelings. Just to kind of step back for a quick moment, you mentioned Nina Tichels and she in her reporting. She's a fantastic reporter. She's author of Big Fat Surprise. She found, and she's the first one to discover this, I think, that the American Heart Association was literally created by Proctor and Gamble. American Heart Association was a very small organization and then Proctor and Gamble donated millions of dollars to it at the time, which would have been a gazillion dollars, gave it the ability to expand I don't know the exact dollar amount gave it the ability to expand and shockingly, they began suggesting that people switch from animal fat based cooking oils to Crisco.

Matthew Lysiak: 22:11

It's not a coincidence. In terms of soy, it's again. It's another very, very cheap, nutrient-deplete, plant-based product that if people saw how it was made, I think that they would never especially like soy lecithin. They would never consume it and they would understand that it's not a food district for human consumption. I mean it has to be. It's very disgusting. I don't want to make your audience nauseous.

Dr Max Gulhane: 22:42

Yeah, it's not. No, it isn't. And again, this idea of it's not voluntarily selected by human free choice, if you have an option, and it's not able to be readily manufactured by people without a whole industrial apparatus. So the thought that this is in any way, shape or form fit for human consumption is really baffling in my mind if we have a shred of understanding of the whole process. So the seven day adventures are a key part of this story, and I did a real loan scram recently that went a little bit viral and I made the point that these recommendations that we've left with or that we're dealing with today in terms of the official dietary body's recommendations of diet which is rich in fruits and vegetables, nuts, seeds, legumes, plant protein and seed oils and low in red meat, saturated fat and cholesterol, and that is a carry on or a legacy from this so-called garden of the eating diet of the Seventh Day Adventists. So talk to us about how they fit into the picture.

Matthew Lysiak: 23:52

This is one of my favorite parts of the book. Max LNG White is this young girl and she goes to church and she describes in her autobiography how she'd come home and she would just cry over what an awful person she was and a sinner and how she could never be right with God. One day she's walking home from school and she gets hit in the back of the head with a rock. She goes into like a short coma. It's knocked out for a long time. It's kind of unclear, but when she awakes she's getting messages from God directly to her and he's saying many things, but his main message to Ellen is the world will come to an end. The apocalypse is coming. We need to save as many people as we can by making their bodies pure, and the main way we can do that is to remove their sex drive. Their sex drive is caused by red meat, and she started a church based on this premise, the Seventh Day Adventist Church, and she found a doctor, a young man named John Harvey Kellogg, who wasn't a doctor at the time but he had worked with her. He was a member of the church and they became very close and he became a doctor. And John Harvey Kellogg is hard to overstate how influential he became. He was like the celebrity doctor of the time. He wrote books, he gave lectures, he was everywhere and he was I think the evidence would say as complete sociopath. Some of the he was infatuated with masturbation and stopping children from masturbating, and some of the things that he did included pouring carbolic acid on the clitorises of young girls, caging caging and tying people's hands. He recommended in some of his writings that if masturbation continued in a young male, to have surgery performed without anesthesia, so that the memory of the pain would be associated with sexual pleasure. So he was very adamant about trying to repress the human sex drive. And Ellen White had an idea that what we need to do is develop an alternative to meat so that we could feed this to young people. It will repress their sex drive and save the world. That's how we invented corn flakes. Corn flakes were invented for the sole reason of preventing young people from masturbating and repressing a sex drive. A bit of irony in this is that it worked. I mean it worked very successfully. It does. A diet high in grains does repress the human sex drive, lowers fertility rates.

Matthew Lysiak: 27:09

He eventually had a fallout, john Harvey, with the church she discovered that Ellen White actually did eat meat and she was lying to everybody. She particularly liked fried chicken. You find this with a lot of so-called vegetarian and vegans they do eat meat, a lot of them. He had a falling out with the church and then he became a eugenicist. So he advocated and was responsible for I believe it was over 3,500 women in the state of Michigan being the reproductive organs were removed so that they couldn't have children because he didn't think they were fit. So he was a real sociopath. But the Seventh-day Adventist Church didn't stop. With John Harvey Kellogg, a lot of the protegees, or the people who came after, became, including somebody named Lena Cooper, started the ADA, the American Dietetics Association, and formalized nutrition health in America. To this day, the ADA largely controls and runs what we consider nutrition. So while they don't talk about masturbation all the time, they change their talking points from carnal desires and repressing the human sex drive. They're still touting the same message. It's just a little more discreet.

Dr Max Gulhane: 28:38

So it's incredible, matthew, because these people sounded like they were really just projecting their own guilt and their own insecurity and their own fear about the religious ideas of the day. They're projecting those onto the rest of the society and you mentioned the lineage of the Seventh-day Adventists and they essentially were a faction of what was known as the Millerite Movement, or an offspring of a Millerite Movement, which themselves had some kind of doomsday prophecy that the world was going to go an end unless certain acts were taken to ensure religious purity. The Millerite Movement fizzled out because their doomsday didn't work and it just seemed like the Seventh-day Adventists, their kind of reflection or their implementation of the same ideas, was to project their guilt about their own sin onto everyone in the form of vegan and vegetarianism.

Matthew Lysiak: 29:38

Oh, you bring up a very interesting point with guilt, and maybe we could get back to that later, because I feel like guilt has been a tool for these movements to try to control the population in the aspect of food for centuries, but specifically the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Look, they have their own church. So I'm libertarian leaning and if these people want to abide by a certain group of dietary standards, all well and good. I think the issue most people would have, and what kept coming up again and again in my research, is how they were able to infiltrate the United States government and in doing so impose the religious beliefs masquerading as very weak nutrition science that would then have an effect on the rest of us through first establishing the American Dietetic Association. But then you got to understand each one of these pillars is a foundation of another step and you could really make an argument that you could track Ellen White, john Harvey Kellogg and their complete perversions and pseudo-scientific realities to the 1992 dietary guidelines that were imposed on every child in every public school in America, and the effects of that are very difficult to overestimate, because the metabolic illness in America is striking.

Matthew Lysiak: 31:23

I mean, our kids are fat and anybody who grew up in the 90s you saw your lunches switch from in schools, switch from chicken fried in lard to suddenly seed oils. Cheese on pizza was replaced by low fat cheese. Our whole milk, which came in the red cartons by, started by Dwight Eisenhower, was replaced by fat free milk, which nobody wanted, so they had to fill it with sugar, so it became chocolate or strawberry milk. And it's like these ripple effects, and I see them throughout the seventh day of the state church as like the head, along with agro big corporations and the agro food industry, and then the government, which prefers us eating peasant food to be blunt, because it masks the inflationary theft of its citizenry through money printing. I'm sorry, max, I can't hear you.

Dr Max Gulhane: 32:39

Sorry. I'm really glad you brought that up, matthew, because that's kind of really the crux of the book. So we're building up to the story, but what I think that the Seventh Day Adventists, what you talked about, is that these dietetics associations and this idea of masquerading. It's almost like the classic bait and switch, which is you go up expecting one thing, which is impartial guidance about how to eat a healthy diet, and you're just getting something completely disguised as the complete opposite. So it's almost been.

Dr Max Gulhane: 33:16

That's the theme we're talking about, for I mean, up until now is that people are honestly looking for honest guidance about how to live a healthy lifestyle and they're getting a steaming pile of metaphorically speaking advice that is not based in rigorous science, is based in this very unrigorous nutritional epidemiology that was influenced by the Seventh Day Adventists. So we're up to about the 1920s and you talked about how Lena Cooper founded the Dietetics Association. What is the next step? Because I think we're getting close to incorporating the food industry and we previewed how Proctor and Gamble were instrumental in forming the American Heart Association. But where are we up to in terms of this story?

Matthew Lysiak: 34:09

Well, another key component in this was that at the time in the 1920s, america was still largely on a gold standard. There was a brief period where we went kind of off it and on it, but up until 1971, there was some restraint on the ability to create money because even though Americans in 1970 could not go and redeem their promissory notes for gold as they were promised foreign nations could. So the amount of money that could be printed we still managed to print more money than we had gold in our treasury, but it was measured a little bit more. And what happened in the 1970s was that when Nixon went off the gold standard and the truth is, when you go through the research, he kind of was forced to. He wanted to keep Vietnam going. But beyond that, when he looked at the treasury he realized that if too many countries had brought in their notes for gold for redemption, it would expose America as a fraud because under Lyndon Johnson before him and previous administrations they had run up deficits, that they had sent out more promissory notes than they had gold in their treasury. So all it would take was a few countries at one time trying to cash in for it to expose the world's biggest superpower as a complete fraud. So it wasn't so much a choice as a necessity. And once that happened, the nation was empowered.

Matthew Lysiak: 35:49

Our political leaders were in America, were empowered with what could be considered, I would consider, the most powerful tool in the history of the world, which is the fiat money printer, because there's these laws passed where you have to use this currency and they could just print money as much as they wanted and pay their own debts or for whatever they needed. So there was this kind of race that began to control inflation, the perception of it, because if you go through history, you'll see that people will tolerate a lot of corruption from their politicians. They'll tolerate scandal. They tolerate war, unfortunately, but when food prices get too high as we saw in Sri Lanka in 2022, they rioted. They threw their leaders out. There's been thousands over the past 10 years of food riots. In Europe, people don't take kindly to it, and in America it's a very heated political issue. When food prices rise, political party in power is often ousted and the cycle continues.

Matthew Lysiak: 36:58

So the government's incentive is since 1970, has been to. They had a choice. They could come clean and say look, we have this issue, we are able to do much with our economy and flood it with dollars, but the downside is the food that gives you nutrients is going to become far more expensive and cost prohibitive. They took a different route. They decided to alter the food supply and through nutrition science and through the power of fiat, they were able to tilt the scales through funding and through subsidies of the fiat money printer to for lack of better words to conduct what I view as a 50-year PSIOP to convince the people that the things that our ancestors ate for thousands of years is actually dangerous and unhealthy. What we should be eating are these newly manufactured grains that are stripped of nutrients and food that is generally would be considered peasant food in any other age and time. So I appreciate I've seen several of your podcasts and you do a lot to punch through that, but it's difficult.

Matthew Lysiak: 38:19

And to get back to the Adventists, you talk about their studies and you're right. So I know that most people are living their lives, they're working jobs, they're not going through these studies. But the difference between clinical, double blind gold standard studies and epidemiology studies? These epidemiology studies are observational studies. So people will see me drinking a two liter of Coke two years ago or 10 years ago when I would drink such a thing and they'd be like nobody would say a word to me.

Matthew Lysiak: 38:49

But if I'm eating a steak, I get all these studies cited to me. Oh, didn't you read, didn't you see? And their epidemiological studies, the leading science that still comes out to this day comes from a place called Global India University in California who over the past few years, has gotten $165 million from the federal government, the Fiat money printer and they use that money to always come up with studies that validate their religious beliefs, because Global India University is run by you guessed it the seventh-average state church. So it's just this cycle and it's really. It's discouraging on one end because there is a huge tidal wave of misinformation from these kinds of studies that pollute the airwaves, because that's all they need to do. They just need to pollute the airwaves enough, where we don't know what's going on. We're all kind of confused because you can go online right now and find a study that validates anything and it's difficult. But I mean, my kind of rule of thumb is on diet in general is, if we weren't eating it 300 years ago, probably not something we should be consuming?

Dr Max Gulhane: 40:11

Yeah, and I don't want to make this a podcast about the nuances of epidemiology, but I'll make a quick point now here to say that nutritional epidemiology is a highly on rigorous field and the premise of a lot of their recommendations are these forms of studies, which are observational in nature, because it's extremely difficult unless you have an institution like a mental asylum, a mental health hospital or a hospital or a resident care home where you can strictly control all factors and then randomize two groups to different diets. It's almost impossible to do, and a couple have been done in the past, like the Minnesota Coronary Experiment, which is something else we can talk about, but it's very difficult to perform a rigorous dietary intervention. So what we have left is observing populations over time and then correlating their health outcomes to often what is a self-reported report of what they ate. So this is fundamentally unable to draw a causative claim because, again, we haven't. This is not a controlled experiment, so fundamentally these results are only good for hypothesis generation. They're not causal claims. Secondly, things like recall bias, which is where you're filling out a form about what I ate in the past year. You have an idea about what you think they want you to say, so you conveniently forget all the booze and all the times that you went via the McDonald's drive-through. You emit that from your food frequency questionnaire and then we've got a highly confounded dataset and we can't draw rigorous conclusions from it. And it makes me quite. It really fires me up, because if we're approaching this idea of health optimization rigorously and like an engineer the same engineer who would put an airplane in the sky and is responsible for hundreds of people's lives If they looked at the quality and the methodology of nutritional epidemiology, they would laugh in your face.

Dr Max Gulhane: 42:23

They would laugh in these people's faces because it's not worth. I will say it's not worth the paper it's printed on. So what that means is that, as you've said so elegantly, matthew, is that you had decades of essentially religiously influenced data. That is simply cheerleading for religious bias, that a preconceived notion that they've already have, and that is a lot of what is coming out of biased institutions like Loma Linda. So all that to say that this is the part of this, what you call the sigh of what looks like a disinformation campaign that average people have to weigh their way through. And I want to take it back to the point you made about inflation, because I really want to spell it out for my listeners. I guess how would you define inflation, because I think that's an important question before we go any further, and you made that point in your book.

Dr Max Gulhane: 43:31

How have the definition changed.

Matthew Lysiak: 43:36

It's ridiculous. Inflation obviously comes from the Latin inflation to expand, and inflation in the monetary sense has traditionally been known to as an expansion of the money supply. Yet this has changed. Today, inflation is defined by modern economists and Keynesians as Okay. I actually I'm going to draw a blank on this because the definition changes so frequently. I know one of my favorite ones was recently where it involved the weather, weather situations. So let me define it to be simplistic For a modern-day Keynesian economist. The inflation definition changes periodically, but the one thing that is never responsible for inflation is an expansion of the monetary supply. That's the only thing. There's Taylor Swift, there was an article Taylor Swift responsible for inflation in Brazil. The list goes on and on. When they change the words and definitions, I mean that should draw a serious red flag, because mathematics should not be a soft science. It's numbers. We're dealing with numbers.

Dr Max Gulhane: 44:59

Yeah, yeah.

Dr Max Gulhane: 45:01

And so what you've said and again I'll package it up for everyone is that in 1971, the US were in a financial problem and they essentially had expanded the money supply beyond which the amount of gold that they had was able to back that up.

Dr Max Gulhane: 45:18

So they had all these people who had claims against them that they essentially weren't able to satisfy. So what President Nixon did was effectively defaulted by removing the backing or what was left of the gold backing of the US dollar, if I've interpreted what you wrote correctly. And as part of that, all the prices in the economy rose, and they rose for all kinds of things because, as you explained in your book, if you've got more paper chasing, the same amount of goods, or goods that are only increasing 5% a year in line with improvements in technology and production, then obviously it's a simple mathematical problem then you're going to get rise in the price of these goods. So what the US government did at the time was, rather than admit that hey guys, we messed up and unfortunately now your steak and your eggs is going to be more expensive Instead of admitting that, they essentially told everyone that the steak and eggs wasn't good for you.

Matthew Lysiak: 46:24

Yeah, that's exactly right, and I know this sounds completely insane to a lot of your audience I'm sure it does but it was really. You've got to think of it like this. So before 1970, there was the Seventh Day Adventist Church and they were pushing this, and corporations were funding nutrition signs and they were pushing this. Still in 1970, the majority of people ate a lot of meat and they ate a lot of eggs, and they weren't scared of saturated fat despite these two forces. But when the separation between the dollar and gold occurred and the printing of dollars just continued and continued, at that point a Titanic shift occurred, because the fiat money printer was then weaponized.

Matthew Lysiak: 47:13

And the fiat money printer you can't just think of it as a machine that spits out dollars. What it really is is the wealth and work and productivity of the entire nation, and actually you could argue that it's the entire world, because the dollar is the primary currency that the other currencies around the world often pinned themselves to. So instead of just saying, yeah, I mean look, guys, things are going to go up, but boy, we have a lot of money to throw around. They did tilt. They leaned into corporate and industry, which benefits and profits far more off of Doritos than they do off me and because they can print them like fiat dollars at scale.

Matthew Lysiak: 48:00

And then you have the religious groups, including now it's like there's been a weird union between the church or something I mean this is church and environmentalist groups and animal rights groups. So that kind of is this interesting coalition for different reasons, but they all have the same end goals, which is that we eat less meat. So I guess, like what you're, you know, we talk about the studies, what you should really look at the studies as more of a press release, these observational studies, because they're either funded by corporations I mean, if you look at the USDA, funding is 11 to one from corporations as opposed to taxpayers, and that's intentional. I mean it's all intentional. If you look at the dietary guidelines, nina Tichol was did great work on this and uncovered that she's the author of Big Fat Surprise.

Matthew Lysiak: 48:58

They uncovered that. She uncovered that 95% of them have corporate ties. So it's not none of this is by accident. It's not like these groups just kind of screwed things up. No, they all have extreme vested interests and they didn't have to meet in a dark, smoky room to make this all happen. It's just all in their interests, so it naturally all aligns.

Dr Max Gulhane: 49:21

Yeah, and if we think about it this way, and the meat or nutrient dense food which is fully grass-fed beef, pastured eggs, full cream, maybe even raw dairy, all these unprocessed whole foods that get grown by a local farmer, sold in the local market five kilometers from where it was grown, there's no profit in that. There's no way that corporations can profit off a highly decentralized food system in that, as that exists. But they can profit from growing corn, from the fertilizers and the herbicides needed to grow corn, from the machinery used to sow a cornfield, from the process of turning that corn into high fructose corn syrup, then selling that as a soda or as Doritos, the same with sugar, the same with canola or soy. So that's where the profit is and I made the point I just released my episode with Texas Slim is that nothing really in my mind encapsulates the difference in what are so-called fiat foods or these false commodities as much as a jar of grass-fed organic ghee, which goes for probably 20 Australian dollars or 14 US dollars, and a bottle of canola or sunflower oil, which goes for $4. And the energy calorie equivalent they're equivalent in, perhaps, but the order of magnitude of the price difference between those two products reflects this massive disconnect and that price kind of difference that these institutions, essentially the US government, were trying to make up by the dietary recommendations, because they were essentially trying to make that $4 canola oil bottle equivalent to that $20 jar of grass-fed ghee by kind of diluting these signals, as we've just discussed.

Dr Max Gulhane: 51:27

And I really see the animal meat and these unprocessed foods that I just mentioned. They're the most convenient punching bag and we've talked at length about the SDAs, the Sanctae Ventus, but it's also the food industry, it's also the actual agricultural lobby of the corn and the soy growers. It's the environmentalists that you talk about I believe his name is Paul Ehrlich and they're the kind of idea that the world is gonna end. We're gonna reach peak oil, then we're gonna reach. There's always another catastrophe on an environmental point of view that distracts from the more acute environmental problems. And then there was Ansel Keys and the American Heart Association. So it's almost like everyone is punching on to the unprocessed food and the wholesome, nutrient-dense food because it's all in their interest. As you mentioned, there's no smoky room here. There's no smoky room with cigars and conspiracies. There's only a convergence of interests that all profit or benefit from punching the bag. That's red meat and saturated fat.

Matthew Lysiak: 52:33

And you have a guy like John Yudkin, who was a fantastic nutritionist in the 50s and the 60s and early 70s, who was from London. He did really good work in the field of nutrition and discovered that, look, it looks like there's a far higher correlation to sugar and metabolic disease and then meat. So what happened to John Yudkin? He lost his funding, he was destroyed. His reputation was he was laughed out of academia and he was once very prominent and kind of died in relative obscurity. And that is the power of fiat, largely because what they were able to do was just flood the zone with money, flood Ansel Keys and a lot of these so-called nutrition magazines that would come out and these nutrition the data compilations. It's very, very, very manipulated on behalf of industry and in one example, the New York Times did some great work and I think it was 2016. They revealed that one of the major studies that came out that told us that saturated fat was bad and sugar was good was paid for and manipulated by the sugar industry, and Ansel Keys was one of the scientists, I mean who did that and it. But I mean this wasn't just something that happened back then. It continues to this day.

Matthew Lysiak: 54:06

We have this horrible human being, dr Fatima Sanford, who appeared on 60 minutes in January of this year and on a segment on Osempic, which is a drug that you inject monthly for weight loss, and she said the science is settled and people no longer control obesity. It's out of their control. It's a brain disease, so your lifestyle and your habits can't do anything to affect your health outcomes. The segment didn't mention that she was getting how much she was getting paid from Osempic. She was. She worked for them as a consultant, but I mean, it's so many interests colliding at the same time. And oh, by the way, she's now on the dietary guidelines too.

Matthew Lysiak: 55:06

So, like Dr Fatima Sanford, who is telling the American public that it's not your fault that you're fat, there's and there's nothing you could do about it because it's a genetic brain disease, is getting paid for very conveniently by the drug that takes care of it. And why? Part of the reason I think this is so disturbing and you talked about the guilt from the church is that I, just in my worldview, I find that there's very few things that are more vile than to tell a human being that they're not in control over the most fundamental part of their existence, which is health, like the way they feel who they are. But that's what we're confronting and that's what's being confronted now. It's why I appreciate that you're out there getting your message out.

Dr Max Gulhane: 55:59

Yeah, a couple points and I'll just correct you. Osempic or semaglutide is a weekly injection and it's a GOP1 agonist that obviously was developed initially as a type 2 diabetes medication.

Matthew Lysiak: 56:12

And it's since Is that a weekly?

Dr Max Gulhane: 56:14

Yeah, it's a weekly. Yeah, it's weekly.

Dr Max Gulhane: 56:16

Oh that's right, yeah, but it's since expanded to weight loss, and what you talk about is I'm glad you have is. It is critical, because when you convince someone that their problem is not able to be changed by their own lifestyle, this defeatist mindset, then, yes, people, the next logical conclusion is that you have to take this medication that we're gonna make for you. It really makes people reliant on it. And again, I talked to Texas Slim about this and he said the exact same thing. And I made the point.

Dr Max Gulhane: 56:52

These people don't have a brain disease, they're in the wrong environment, they're eating processed foods, they're addicted to technology, they're not getting a regulated circadian rhythm. And it's not the first time, and I'll make a little quick detour about circadian health, because there's a key pathway in the brain called, or a gene product called, pro-opioamelanocortin, and it is one of the key regulators for regulating body composition, body weight and appetite, and the various pharma companies have invented a medication that specifically targets this pathway in an attempt to sell a drug that will help people lose weight. The thing is, you can make this product, or that potentially the same pathway in your brain by simply getting into ultraviolet light, getting in the sun. That's why the sun and circadian regulation is such a potent weight loss tool and helps with that. But when you tell people that they have a disease whether that's obesity, it's genetic then you're really disempowering them from doing anything about it and I agree with you completely because it's very insidious.

Dr Max Gulhane: 58:03

So I actually highlighted part of your book and I'm really glad you brought it up because I wanna hammer this point home. You wrote foundational to an individual's self-ownership is the perception that they control their own health, that through the foods they eat they can grow strong, that in illness they're equipped with tools necessary to heal. Foundational to fiat is human dependence, surviving off a system that slowly drains the wealth of the many to benefit the few. That the expertise or authority serves as a substitute for one's own decision-making. Consequently, the role of personal responsibility as the primary driver of obesity and chronic and related chronic diseases has been sidelined, replaced by assurances from fiat health authorities that negative health outcomes are due to circumstances outside of one's control. So we were on the same wavelength when I highlighted that passage, matthew, because isn't it so applicable to what we're discussing right now?

Matthew Lysiak: 59:01

It is and I can't emphasize enough just how important I think it is, I think, to backtrack a little bit. I think for me, covid changed a lot of my perceptions because I want I look at the world through the lens of my own perceptions, obviously, and I don't think I'm a horrible person and so I never think that people are bad. I always assume like good intentions on others, but the reality is I personally in the past, and I know I still probably do too much to degree, but I've too many people outsource their decision-making to credentialed authorities based on trust and these institutions are have betrayed us like severely. You have a lot of our modern day nutrition science is built foundationally from Harvard School of Medicine, which was run by Dr Fred Rickstair, who was just a complete shill of industry. In his book he bragged about coming up with $2 million from Kellogg's here and a million here, while he's touting sugar as a healthy between meal snacks and people still believe this. I mean people will still talk about Dr Fred Rickstair's studies and to justify their behaviors, which oftentimes are the result of being addicted to flour or sugar.

Matthew Lysiak: 1:00:38

And I think I know hisTSADcom. He was the leading health nutritionist for years and years and this guy, he had all these credentials. I mean, it's Harvard, so you give people a pass. I understand why a lot of people believe that sugar isn't really that bad. It's kind of okay. You can have some sugar here and there every day. I think he said Coke was very healthy for you. But once we look at ourselves within nature and this was a big turning point for me, because I'm not a nutritionist but I do recognize that I'm part of nature and part of a world and I'm not outside of that and once you see that and that you don't need to outsource your decision making to anybody, it's all right there and it's actually crudely obvious what we should be doing and what we should be eating.

Dr Max Gulhane: 1:01:34

Yeah, and as far as I'm concerned, anyone who's taken money from industry, no matter what that industry is, is tainted in their view and their opinion and it's simply not able to be relied upon to give an impartial opinion. I think it's that simple. And you mentioned Frederick Stair and the Harvard School of Public Health. If my interpretation or my reading of some of the missives that they put out, it just reads like a cheerleading for industry, essentially Still recommending consumption of canola and soy and refined sources of linoleic acid-rich, refined sources of omega-6 polyunsaturated fatty acids. One can go to YouTube and see the process that involved in extracting these and the fact that no one was eating them until 100 years ago, and then it doesn't take a PhD to realize that that's not fit for human consumption. So the fact that such a esteemed and prestigious body has been essentially endorsing processed food consumption is exactly what you said in terms of betraying the trust of lay people who don't either have perhaps even the intelligence or just the time to invest in researching what they should be eating. And it comes back to this idea of being essentially shortchanged or bait-and-switched because there's faith put in these institutions to inform people of the correct, healthy dietary choice.

Dr Max Gulhane: 1:03:19

And just look at the statistics. In Australia, two-thirds of Australian adults and a quarter of Australian children are currently either overweight or obese. If you graph it from the 1980s onwards, it's just up and to the right. And once I plotted the Australian dietary guidelines on the same graph, there's no attenuation of those curve with those successive dietary guidelines and in fact there's no. It's just continues to go up and the right. So obviously diet is a key part of why everyone is getting that fat and it's clearly not working. So before we go a little bit further, I just wanted you to talk a little bit more about what happened exactly in the aftermath of 1971, because there was something happened with regards to one of the agricultural secretaries that you wrote in your book that I think really set you America on this trajectory of cropping and monocropping, which later spills down into processed foods.

Matthew Lysiak: 1:04:28

So the politicians weren't unaware of this problem. They understood that going off of the gold standard would result in an inevitable rise in the price of the nutrients that we need to live and this would cause this would become a political liability. So Nixon had a plan and that was to got this guy named Earl Butts, as you mentioned, the Secretary of Agriculture, and he instructed Butts to make sure that people had enough food. Because another factor I want to throw in there was that in the early 1970s it wasn't global warming that people were worried about, that wasn't the crisis of that moment, it was actually overpopulation. And the book called Silent Spring came out and there was another book about that environmental book that basically posited this idea that we were going to run out of food Too many people, not enough food. So he sent Earl Butts out to. Earl Butts had a slogan go big or go home, and in it he incentivized America's farmers, which at that point were diverse. There weren't these giant agro-farmers everywhere. That wasn't the American farming community. It was broken up by smaller farms. He incentivized the consolidation of all these farms and he wanted corn everywhere. So that was incentivized through subsidies.

Matthew Lysiak: 1:06:07

And why the fiat part is important? Because pre-1971, if you wanted to spend $8 trillion on corn, it had to be correlated with the gold in your treasury. So you could only do that by raising taxes and going to the people and saying, look, the corn industry needs our money. Here's our reasons. We have to raise our taxes or selling bonds like corn bonds, I guess could be a thing, but there was no other way to get the money. You had to appeal to the people, you had to have their consent. Fiat removed that. You could just print it and, through the printing of the dollar, confiscate a portion of every single person's wealth who held the dollar. No permission, no vote. And what happened was corn became so cheap and it wasn't just corn, it was soy and sugar as well, but corn was the main one. It became so cheap that everything in our economy began to become almost part of corn, to the extent that it replaced sugar. If you go to other countries go to Mexico Coke is made with sugar. Here it's made with corn Because American policy, through Fiat, has subsidized corn to such an extent.

Matthew Lysiak: 1:07:31

All the leftover corn is either used as ethanol or high fructose corn syrup, which we were told was healthy when that came out, which is slightly worse than sugar. They're both very bad. But that changed a lot because grocery stores began substituting out ingredients for these subsidized foods. They began subsidizing healthier ingredients for soy lecithin, for high fructose corn syrup. So if you go in the Middle Isles of your grocery store in America, you find a lot of obese people in scooters pushing carts that are products that are essentially soy corn flour and then coloring in additives mixed in different combinations. It's like 90% of what you see in the Middle Isles of the grocery store.

Matthew Lysiak: 1:08:23

You could directly tie that back to the subsidization of these industries, which then creates these political interest groups who begin funding politicians, and it's this cycle that grows more powerful, more powerful. So anytime presidential candidates campaign in Iowa and no one dared talk about removing corn subsidies because they'll lose the funding of their campaign and all hell breaks loose. So it's very what that period you talk about was very pivotal and ongoing. It's continuing, but at a much greater rate. But there's so much noise in the world that it's hard to focus on how much of the. I guarantee you that 19 out of 20 people have no idea how much, to what extent, corn is being subsidized. But that is their money Because, just because it isn't directly taxed from them. The taxation of our money is only a small part of what's taken from the American populace, the main taxation in Australia. You're connected to the dollar, so your currency we take from you too. The main part of it is through the inflationary theft of the purchasing power of our dollars. Each time they double our money supply.

Dr Max Gulhane: 1:09:41

Yeah, and I think about, or a good way to think about, the effect that this inflation is happening having, is imagine if you're a shop owner and you're a restaurant owner and you're making you sell scrambled eggs with bacon for your cafe and then 1971 comes around and the price of everything has increased.

Dr Max Gulhane: 1:10:07

As that cafe owner, you've got a couple of options.

Dr Max Gulhane: 1:10:09

You can either increase your prices and keep the quality of that meal the same and still serve four pastured eggs and three slices of pastured bacon and increase the price from $10 to $15.

Dr Max Gulhane: 1:10:25

You could keep the price the same and instead either use less eggs so your meal has shrunk from four eggs down to three or two and three slices of bacon to two slices of bacon, or you could substitute fully grass-fed, soy-free eggs for cage eggs, or you could substitute the pastured bacon for confined fed pork. So it's incredible to think about the insidious effect that this inflation has had and still is having on food and the economy. When every single producer or every single restaurateur or anyone else has to make that hard decision in the face of rising prices. What to do and what you've described and I think what we're hoping to help them listen and understand is the dietary recommendations. And the commodities these false commodities, these fiat foods that you and Texas talk about are a result they're a downstream effect of the watering down of the food supply in response to these rising prices that were triggered in the 1970s, if I've interpreted your book correctly.

Matthew Lysiak: 1:11:45

Yeah, yeah, totally, and that's why I dedicate the last three chapters to how Bitcoin, in particular, fixes this and I'm not an economist and Bitcoin isn't necessarily the only thing that can fix it. But what would is a hard currency, and that's because it would remove the distortions Fiat creates, kind of this bizarro world where everything's upside down. For instance, in 1910, if you were to take a $10 gold coin and bury it for five years, five years later, with reasonable explanation could expect that that $5 coin would be able to purchase more eggs and beef than it did when we put it in. The reverse is true. So the advice your grandmother gives you to save your money, to be prudent in fiat, is actually terrible advice, because your money, in terms of purchasing power, is devaluing by every day. We've lost 99% of our purchasing power over the past 75 years. That's ridiculous. So what it incentivizes is debt, a hard currency. Even if it were gold, I think Bitcoin's a lot better.

Matthew Lysiak: 1:12:53

But a hard currency attached to the dollar would change it because the distortions created by fiat would no longer be incentivized. There would be no need to obfuscate the price, the rising cost of food, because it wouldn't be going up, and there would be no need to fund corn and soy, because we wouldn't need an America, an alternative diet, and there would be no need to be funding global and the university to come up with bullshit studies that completely talk about how meat causes diabetes. Meat doesn't have fructose. That's a ridiculous concept, but their interest isn't. They're not what I've learned and I've talked to some of the. The conversations didn't go well. I talked to some of the observational conductors of these studies. Their goal is never to appeal to people like you who could read the studies and understand them. So this sûr swinging point is not necessarily a focus of interest in the media, and they're very good at it. How many did you see the headline that Meet Now Caused as Diabetes? It's been everywhere.

Dr Max Gulhane: 1:13:59

Yeah, it's ridiculous and it's what we talked about. It's essentially just cheerleading for a pre-decided or pre-ordained corporate strategy, a bottom line strategy that's profitable for the interest groups. But I want to really go back to that point that you raised about the price changes with if you use the opposite of this fiat system. And what you said is that if you had a fixed amount, a money that was fixed in units, then over time the value or the purchasing power of that money would go up. So rather than being able to buy less steak over time, you'd actually be able to buy more steak over time.

Dr Max Gulhane: 1:14:42

And earlier in the book you really gave a really good idea about the debasement or the change in money after 1971, because you compared the kilograms of soloin beef that you could purchase and pre-impose that inflation moment and the amount of beef that you could buy has gone down dramatically.

Dr Max Gulhane: 1:15:02

And I would hazard a guess that not only the amount of beef has gone down but probably the quality of that beef that you're buying for the same amount would also have gone down. And maybe it's got more antibiotics, Maybe it wasn't fully past your rates. But it's incredible to think that if you had an opposite system, that people if, over time, would be able to buy instead of four pastured eggs and three slices of bacon on that breakfast meal maybe the same amount of money that also be able to get a slice of sausage in addition, so the meal could actually get bigger for the same price over time, rather than getting smaller or getting diluted. I mean that is a fascinating concept that I think was foreign to everyone these days because we don't live in a hard money, fixed money supply system that you've just described.

Matthew Lysiak: 1:15:54

In a fiat system in America, you don't own your dollar. Okay, so you're holding the physical piece of paper, but you don't own its value because there's somebody else down the street with a printing machine who prints as much of it as they want and doesn't have to consult you. Because of that, you have no control over the value of your dollar. So the ownership, in essence, of your productivity is a product largely of the state. So while our leaders are consistently perpetuating this myth and this propaganda to the American people that we're becoming richer based on paper accumulation of their fiat wealth, in reality we're becoming poorer and less able to afford the foods that humans thrive on. So, in essence, of food is the way they look at it. We live in a time of abundance, they tell us, but because fiat distorts everything to such an extent and creates this bizarre world we live in today, the reality is worse.

Matthew Lysiak: 1:16:55

It's like in the 1500s, when obesity was synonymous with affluence and wealth. Now it's really a sign of poverty. It's the sign of somebody who's depleted of nutrients Because they've been following the dietary guidelines of America and getting their 8211 servings of grains a day. That's what our government tells us to do. That's a recipe for metabolic destruction and again I wish I could say that it's just some kind of sad oops of history, but it was intentional. Every step of the way, people profited and the product in America is the human misery that comes out of it all. It's not very profitable for us to be healthy, to have self autonomy over ourselves, to not be in the medical system, consistently believing that everything wrong with us is a lack of a medical product. What they want which is what they want to convince us of, to live independently and to eat as many nutrients as we can is a recipe on their end for going bankrupt and losing a market.

Dr Max Gulhane: 1:18:13

Yeah, and on that point of the kind of inflation and the red meat, I think that potentially, the way you've just described it, or previously that the inflation kind of definition is always getting changed. I think that if you have maybe a kilogram of fully grass-fed ribeye steak, that should be the real marker of inflation. Maybe you don't need to use anything else. It's just like how much does it cost to buy a kilogram of fully grass-fed ribeye? And benchmark income, benchmark all these other economic metrics against that one and then you can see truly if the standard of living in the society is rising or falling. And I think by that metric it has definitely fallen, despite what political leaders might have told us.

Dr Max Gulhane: 1:19:05

I want to wrap us up on that point that you made about the human face, because it reminded me of a patient that a colleague of mine saw who for diabetes reversal and he was in his late 60s and he'd followed the advice to get rid of grains, to get rid of seed oils, to stop eating sugar, and he was well on the pathway to losing his visceral fat, regaining his metabolic health, coming off these diabetic medications.

Dr Max Gulhane: 1:19:35

And my colleague recounted this story to me and the patient said to him it's good, but it's only 20 years too late. And it was deep, because it really spoke to this feeling of the fact that this is a bit of pill to swallow, because, yeah, I'm healing, but this person was so far down their health journey in a preventable and avoidable way. Had they received the correct species-appropriate dietary advice low carbohydrate, plenty of red meat and healthy animal fat 20 years earlier, this could have all been averted. So I think that's a great way to put a human face on this problem this hour and a half that we've talked, which is there are real people on the other end of these economic decisions to remove the US from the gold standard. All this attempt at obfuscating inflation has real human consequences and real human victims.

Matthew Lysiak: 1:20:38

I think, yeah, that's heartbreaking and yeah, I have a lot of compassion for these people because they've been lied to and they've been lied to for decades now. But I have hope that we're kind of breaking through the matrix One crack at a time, with podcasts like yours and Saifidin and Dr Sean Baker and Nina Tichels. There's a small army coming and it's beautiful to watch. It's in this very beginning stages right now, but it's of again. It kind of comes back to self-autonomy and people taking their lives back. So, and I appreciate you having me on and letting me share this time with you- yeah, fantastic Matthew.

Dr Max Gulhane: 1:21:21

Let us know where the listeners can buy your book and where they can follow you.

Matthew Lysiak: 1:21:28

I mean, I'm really bad on social media. I have a Twitter and I try to be clever sometimes, but it's kind of. I'm on Twitter, matthew Leyshak, and so my books are pretty much everywhere where you buy books Fiat Food. I have a lot of books, but most of them are all in the crime genre because that was, I believe this fits neatly into my crime genre. But Saifidin Amou started a publishing house and I was his first author. So if you go to thesaifhousecom, you could actually buy Fiat Food with Bitcoin, which is pretty cool.

Dr Max Gulhane: 1:22:05

Amazing. Well, I'll include all those links in the show notes. Thank you very much, Matthew, for coming on and helping us expose this crime scene so eloquently and interestingly.

Matthew Lysiak: 1:22:20

Thank you, thanks Max. Keep spreading the word. Man Appreciate it.