58. Deuterium Depletion for Cancer & Diabetes with Dr Gabor Somlyai

I speak with world expert on deuterium depletion and cancer, Dr Gabor Somylai, from Hungary. He has dedicated his professional life to understanding and treating cancer using by reducing the concentration of the heavy hydrogen isotope, deuterium, in the body. This involves drinking deuterium-depleted water adopting a very high animal fat ketogenic style diet.

Deuterium depletion isn't some fringe or whacky alternative healing modality, rather its thoroughly researched topic with decades of benchside and clinical evidence of efficacy (see links below). The concept is understandable when we step of the DNA/RNA/genetic view of cancer and into a mitochondrial metabolic and bioenergetic model. 

For those who are new the concept of deuterium as it relates to biology and health, check out my earlier episodes with Dr Jalal Khan, Dr Sara Pugh and Dr Laszlo Boros. 

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TIMESTAMPS
00:13:21 Deuterium and its Role in Cancer
00:20:41 Deuterium in Food and Water
00:28:28 Natural Deuterium Depleting Mechanisms
00:37:18 Protocols and Practical Implementation
00:52:48 Scaling and Access to Deuterium Depletion
00:55:42 Training and Education for Doctors
00:57:00 Evidence of Efficacy in Cancer Treatment
00:58:25 Preventing Cancer Recurrence
01:00:03 Deuterium Depleted Water for Metabolic Diseases
01:02:13 Deuterium Depleted Diet
01:04:04 Recommendations for Optimal Use of Deuterium Depleted Water
01:05:11 Interference with Antioxidants and Exercise
01:06:26 Sourcing High-Quality Deuterium Depleted Water
01:09:12 Guidance for Patients Starting Deuterium Depletion

Follow DR SOMLYAI
Research profile - https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Gabor-Somlyai
Publications - https://hyd.hu/en/publications/
Deuterium Depletion book - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Deuterium-Depletion-Curing-Cancer-Preserving/dp/6150143864/

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 4:12

In this episode I speak with world expert on deuterium depletion and cancer, dr Gabor Schumli, from Hungary. He has dedicated his professional life to understanding and treating cancer with methods that reduce the concentration of the heavy hydrogen isotope, deuterium, in the body. Now deuterium depletion is not some fringe or wacky alternative healing modality. Rather, it is a thoroughly researched scientific topic with decades of benchside and clinical evidence of efficacy. The benefits are understandable when we step out of the DNA, rna and nuclear genomic view of cancer and into a mitochondrial, metabolic and bio-energetic model of cancer, which I and others believe it represents. Dr Schumli has had amazing success with this approach and has again extensively published this in the peer-reviewed literature, as well as making it access to people through two published books, the most recently titled Deuterium Depletion, which was published in 2022.

Speaker 1: 5:15

For those who are new to the concept of deuterium as it relates to biology, please check out my earlier episodes with Dr Jalal Khan, dr Serapiu and Dr Laszlo Boros. I hope that you enjoyed this episode and it offers you some further understanding of the biochemical basis of cancer. I particularly hope it can be of value to other health practitioners, particularly GPs, family doctors and oncologists, who have a potential role in guiding patients through a deuterium depletion protocol in addition to standard oncological therapies. Thank you and enjoy the show. Dr Gabor Schumli, thank you for coming onto my podcast. You're welcome. So let's start with this idea of deuterium and how it relates to cancer. You're obviously a world expert on the use of deuterium-depleting procedures or regimes to assist in cancer treatment, and I think we could start by explaining to people the concept of deuterium, because that will give us a good background for what we talk about later in this discussion.

Speaker 2: 6:37

I was a teenager when I decided to do something with this cancer. The first thing I declared that I'm not going to find a drug, because I don't believe that there is any drug which would be able to effectively cure cancer. My concept was when I started thinking about cancer, what should be the mechanism and how can the cells regulate the cell growth? Because I believed if we find a way how the cells can regulate the cell growth in that way we can find a way to cure cancer. And I was lucky because Albert Sangerdi, who is one of the Hungarian Nobel laureates, gave an interview in the early 70s and in his interview he said one word. He said submolecular. So he suggested that it is not possible that the huge protein molecules would be responsible for that very precise regulatory system and he suggested that we should go to submolecular level. So I kept it in my mind that submolecular. And he recommended that electrons should be that small particle and I kept it in my mind that submolecular. One day the idea came to my mind that maybe the hydrogen ion, which is a small positively charged element, should be that submolecular particle which has a key role in that cellular regulatory system. And four years later I was a student at the university and the other idea came to my mind that there is a heavy hydrogen, it is called deuterium, and that was in 1918. So I was sure that somehow the deuterium hydrogen together are responsible to regulate the cell growth.

Speaker 2: 8:33

I graduated in 1982 and then I started to find a job which on a cancer field. But I couldn't find. So I continued my DNA work. Later I defeated my PhD. Then I went to Germany and the United States and when I came back from the United States I started to find again a job which is cancer related. And at that time, in 1990, I started to work at the Hunger and Nations Oncology and I started to investigate the possible role of the deuterium in the living organism.

Speaker 2: 9:09

So the question was and that was surprising me that everybody knows that the deuterium is present in nature. The ratio is 6600 to 1 between the hydrogen deuterium. Everybody knows that the deuterium behaves differently in chemical reaction because due to the 100% mass difference and even that nobody investigated it for 60 years. But there is any role of the deuterium in the living organism and I guess the reason was that this 6600 to 1 ratio, the people believe that we can ignore it. So the question, what I addressed really can be ignored at deuterium. And it's even more surprising that when we talk about PPM, so if we take 1 million hydrogen, we can find 150, 155 deuterium out of 1 million hydrogen. This is the reason that we talk about PPM, of the D level, but we explain the de-concentration in millimole because then somebody go to the doctor and got a blood report. They will find that the calcium level is about 2.5 millimole, the magnesium concentration or about 1 millimole, but the deuterium level is 12 millimole. Even it is not on the test. So the question was can we ignore the deuterium if the de-concentration is 6 times higher than the calcium or 10 times higher than the magnesium in the blood?

Speaker 2: 10:49

So in the very first experiment I used deuterium-depleted water. I prepared media for cancer cell lines and I checked the cell growth in artificial media with deuterium-depleted water and the first data was shocking because I found that in deuterium-depleted media the cancer cell growth was slowed down or was stopped completely. The other series of the experiment we transplanted human breast cancer to mice and we replaced the drinking water with the mice deuterium-depleted water and they found that we could stop the cell growth and we can get complete tumor regression in the mice drinking deuterium-depleted water and the very first data and results was published in 1993. In that paper we concluded that the nature-occurring deuterium is essential to keep the normal growth rate in the living organisms and the cells and we combined our data with the data of other scientists.

Speaker 2: 12:03

Other scientists would prove that when a growth hormone binds to the membrane and that membrane on hydrogen out of the cells and pick up on sodium from the outer space of the cells and that transportation, increased transportation of the hydrogen caused a pH increase in the cell and everybody agreed that that increase of the pH should be responsible to trigger the cell division. So in our very first paper we concluded that when the growth hormone activates and stimulates the membrane and that sodium-hydrogen antiport, that we prefer to transport the hydrogen, which means that activation results a higher deuterium-hydrogen ratio and that changing the age ratio, a higher deage ratio, would be responsible to trigger the cell division. So when we keep the cells on a deuterium-depleted media it should lift up the age ratio to the threshold from a lower level and that goes to difficulties for the cells to do that and even we could conclude that somehow the cancer cells are very sensitive from the lowering the concentration and finally, that can cause and triggered the octosis of the cancer cells. So the very first paper that the nature occurring deuterium, essential for the normal growth rate and for the physical processes, With the low D level we can trigger the necrosis of the cancer cells and the man is one part of the man is how to regulate the cell growth. It depends on the deage ratio and that the deage ratio increase the threshold that can trigger the cell division. So that was the very first part of our study and we published, and later we continue our research and we know that finally, our D level is depends on one, two thing the one, what type of water we drink and what type of food we eat.

Speaker 2: 14:23

Because the water, what we drink, it is about 1.5 to 2 liter per day. That can strongly determine the average D level of our body. But we every day synthesize about 0.3, 0.4 liter water. This is called metabolic water, which is made in the mitochondria. And when the mitochondria is producing this metabolic water, then the hydrogen is coming from the lipids, from amino acids or from the carbohydrate. And so, very first step, I went to the shop and I bought different type of food I mean sugar, cottage or land or fat. I brought this type of water to the research institute and asked them take out the water from this food and burn that dry food to water, because that will be the water of what the mitochondria will produce.

Speaker 2: 15:32

We found that the data showed that when the mitochondria burn the carbohydrate, that will produce metabolic water with 150 ppm deconcentration. When the mitochondria burn the proteins, that will produce about 135-38 ppm deconcentration. But when the mitochondria burn the fat, that will produce 118 ppm deconcentration. So our day-level will depend on what is the composition of the diet. The more carbohydrate we eat to cover the calorie intake, the metabolic water, the more fat we eat, it means we're burning fat and producing 118 ppm. That means we can lower the deconcentration of the metabolic water. So in our body our average deconcentration will be the combination of the water we drink and the combination of the diet we eat. And the more fat we eat, the lower will be the D-level. That way we can regulate and that will determine our deconcentration.

Speaker 2: 16:56

So what we offer people now based upon our data, first of all, the biggest problem for the society, that the fat is said this is a bad food and in the last 50-60 years it was said that we should increase the calorie intake by carbohydrate and it means that the society in the last 50-60 years leaves their lives with a deconcentration pretty close to the 150 ppm, because the ratio of the calorie intake of the fat is pretty low.

Speaker 2: 17:38

So what we suggest? First, change the diet just to reduce some but the deconcentration of the metabolic water and or consume due to deprecated water. Depending on whether you are healthy, whether you are diabetic or has a metabolic disease, or depending if you are a cancer patient, you have to consume another type of due to deprecated water. And if we consider what is the role of the deconcentration of life and if we and that way we have a chance to intervene very effectively into that regulatory system, and this is the reason that we believe that when the due to depletion will be part of the oncotherapy, we can drastically reduce the death caused by cancer. And if the due to depletion would be part of the treatment of the metabolic disease, that will be very, very effective and on the healthy population, we would be able to reduce the incidence of cancer and to prevent the metabolic diseases. This is how we think today.

Speaker 1: 18:55

There's so much there. That's incredible what you've laid out. I really wanted to get you on because I think that this is such a promising intervention that people can use in conjunction with their standard therapy and there's no reason why it precludes the use of existing, maybe mainstream, oncology treatments. And I want to go back and just recap for the listeners, because you said a lot there and essentially we've got these two different types of hydrogen. One is a heavier hydrogen deuterium and the ratio of deuterium to hydrogen is regulating cell growth. So your early work showed that when the ratio of hydrogen to deuterium was higher or there was less deuterium, then the cell was less likely to replicate and therefore you were able to induce programmed cell death or apoptosis in these cancer cells.

Speaker 1: 19:52

So I think that's a key point for people to realize or internalize, which is that cancer is this mitochondrial metabolic problem and, contrary to a lot of the messaging that we get in the mainstream about cancer being a genetic problem, the problem is really in the mitochondria.

Speaker 1: 20:13

So by regulating and adjusting the ratio of deuterium to hydrogen, we can influence the cancerous cell to replicate. So based on that, you proposed this idea of regulating our total body deuterium using food and water. I want to ask you a couple of questions about the food before we go into the water, and you said specifically that the fat, when you burn it in the mitochondria, makes the most amount of deuterium-depleted metabolic water, and I believe, in agreeance with you, that the anti-fat narrative from Ansel Keys over the past 60 years has been incredibly harmful and obviously the demonization of that, and for a number of reasons, but this is just another one of it. My question is specifically with regard to refined oils, or seed oils as they're commonly known. Do you what has been your experience and your testing of the deuterium content of these industrially refined oils?

Speaker 2: 21:22

Yeah, so it's. There is a paper published that Richard Robbins were able to measure the de-concentration of the fatty acid chain and he could prove that the D-level in a linoleic acid on the carbon 9, the de-concentration is 60 ppm and this is true for the carbon 13,. Which means that the metabolism is so dedicated and so precise that when the cell is producing, synthesizing a fatty acid, they can specifically modify the D-level depending on the number of the carbon. So it is not just randomly distributed in the cell, even in a given molecules. So we never investigated changing or investigating different type of oil and different type of long chain fatty, depending maybe on the source, depending on the plant which is synthesizing a given product, can modify the distribution and the concentration of the deuterium on a given molecules. For example, which is very clear, with the carbohydrate, the plant has three systems, three chemical way to fix the carbon dioxide from the air. It is called the C3, c4 and CAM. And even the plants, which is a weed, for example, belongs to the C3 way to fix the carbon dioxide. They produce a more depleted carbohydrate than the other plants which, for example, the corn, which use the metabolic pathway according to C4. And the pineapple can enrich the deuterium in the plant. So that shows that depending on the plant, depending on a given biochemical pathway, can be even the same type of biochemical pathway can be different depending on the plant, the cell and so on.

Speaker 2: 23:46

So it's an extremely complex system and it requires lots of science and lots of research to figure out what's going on. When we check the oil, the oil deuterium level wasn't so depleted than the fat. So if we check the different type of foods, the lowest de-level is in the fat. But for example the capsaicin which makes the pepper very hot, it's the concentration, only 60 ppm. Because what we see, that in each chemical reaction always the hydrogen will be preferred, because there is a tenfold difference in the speed the chemical reaction is running with hydrogen or deuterium. So the more complex a molecule we can consider, the more depleted for deuterium. Because during the synthesis, always the chemical reaction, we go faster with the hydrogen. So that way we can differentiate and we can consider that one molecule should de-level, we'll be closer to 150 ppm, the other maybe will be much lower than 150 ppm.

Speaker 1: 25:02

It makes so much sense to me, which is that if you're eating foods of animal origin, then Mother Nature has kind of already created its deuterium depleted food source, whereas if you're eating a plant, then you're not benefiting from this natural process of eating fats that have already been deuterium depleted. The question, I guess, was relevant, and it's interesting that the seed oils do have more deuterium in them than animal fat, and I think that is one reason why they're such an undesirable food for most people, and the fact that most people have replaced saturated fat with the seed oils is very problematic. So let's talk about water, and it makes sense to me that the mitochondria need to be burning food that is the least deuterium content in order to produce the most deuterium depleted water. But in terms of drinking water that is, having a low deuterium concentration, can you talk to the natural prevalence of or concentration of deuterium in various waters that you might find naturally?

Speaker 2: 26:17

So you are living in Australia, you are very close to the equatorial area, so the ocean level is 155 ppm. And when the clouds appear and moving to the south and north poles easier or easier can lose the heavy water molecules. It means that the rainwater D level is decreasing. At the farther from the equatorial area the lower the de-concentration of the rainwater. And this is true when we go uphill. The higher the altitude on the hillside, the lower the D level. And this is also true the farther from the ocean, the lower the D level. So it means in Hungary, in central Europe, we have about 148 ppm de-concentration. If you go to Edmonton in Canada, far from the ocean and pretty north, it should be about 100 certified ppm de-concentration. In the middle of Africa it should be about 155 ppm because they've got back the same water which is evaporated from the ocean and that will determine the D level of the plants which is cultivated on a given area and also modified by the biochemical processes of the plant, so that again which can strongly modify the D level. But it is very important to say because you mentioned that. So we concluded that the lower D level can stop or can slow down the cell growth. But when we talk about the application of D-tim-de-pre-tid water we do not have to worry about that. We'll reduce the growth of the healthy cells Because what we found, that the healthy cells because they are healthy cells and the metabolites is perfectly working well. They, day by day, are able to adapt the metabolites to the lowering D level. And the big difference between the cancer cells and healthy cells, that the cancer cells has an impaired mitochondria. And this is the reason that because the mitochondria is not able to produce D-tim-de-pre-tid metabolic water, so when the growths form, bind to the membrane and stimulate very easily can lift up the D-age ratio to the threshold to trigger the cell division. When we modified the D level of the cancer cells day by day, consuming the patients due to in depleted water, it's a challenge day by day and that can trigger the radicals and that radicals finally can trigger the apoptosis and this is how it works. So for healthy population we suggest to consume due to in depleted water with 125 ppm or 105 ppm. We have run a phase two clinical study with patients having metabolic disease. They consumed 105 ppm, 1.5 litre per day for 90 days and when we checked the D level of the blood from 148, we reduced to 133 ppm. So that clearly shows that consuming DW we reduced the deconcentration of the body and that way in that clinical trial we could reduce the fasting glucose level and then we could reduce the insulin resistance. That way we could increase the HDR cholesterol, the so-called good cholesterol concentration, and the blood count didn't change, so we did not cause any trouble or drop of the blood counts or whatever. So this is what we offer to have CPP to bring the D level to the range of 125, 450 ppm, because in that range the mitochondria works much properly and the insulin signal system is also working much properly.

Speaker 2: 30:48

The basis that I says that we have run a three red study. In the red study we made the reds diabetic and we checked whether we can reduce the blood sugar level of the reds. The point was when the reds did not receive insulin the D level did not modify the blood sugar level. It was pretty high in that red. But when the reds received 25 ppm and got insulin, that significantly reduced the blood sugar level of the diabetic reds. But in then we repeated the experiment. If we checked not only 25 ppm but 1, 25 and 75, 105. And the point was that not the lowest D concentration reduced the best rate of 25 ppm.

Speaker 2: 31:47

And in the third experiment we checked between 125 and 150 ppm, changing by 5 ppm, and that clearly showed that the best was the 125 ppm. And we also checked I don't know whether the people do not know, I guess what the meaning of glutathor protease is staying in the cytosol and when the insulin bind to the membrane and trigger the signal system, that will stimulate the glutathor to move to the membrane because that glutathor will pick up the glucose from the blood vessel. So in that red study we checked whether the D concentration can modify the glutathor concentration in the membrane of the red muscle and we found that the highest glutathor concentration was at the 125 ppm, which means that the insulin signal system work much properly at the 125 ppm. So this is, and after that we checked with a human clinical study and that was the same. We found that when we reduce that D level of these patients with metabolic disease, that way we can improve their metabolism, reduce the blood sugar level and all these things. So this is how it works.

Speaker 1: 33:10

Fascinating, and I'm very much interested in metabolic disease as well, and I really think that they're just two sides of the same coin. When it comes to mitochondrial dysfunction, and whatever you have the misfortune of manifesting with regard to mitochondrial disease will determine whether that is diabetes or some form of cancer. And 125 ppm I'll keep that in my head and I want to talk to you about protocols. But just before we do that, what about the natural deuterium depleting mechanisms of the body? Because if you've mentioned that the deuterium content of our bodies is influenced by, obviously, what we eat and what we drink, what about our natural ability to get rid of deuterium? And the reason I ask is because there might be native populations living at the equatorial latitude whose water is 155 ppm of deuterium. They eating pineapples or bananas, mangoes, yet they have low incidence of metabolic disease, mitochondrial dysfunction and cancers, and I'm thinking of, perhaps, maybe, populations like the Katarvins in Melanesia. So what mechanisms have we evolved specifically in people who are living equatorially or living in their natural environment.

Speaker 2: 34:37

I understand the question and I guess this is a very good question and important. So I don't believe that each population is adapted to the de-concentration where they live and I have seen several podcasts with other people. So I don't believe that the aim is to reduce the de-level as much as possible and I do not agree that the lower the de-level the better. I think the deuterium-hydrogen ratio is crucial and the question is where is the optimal deuterium-hydrogen ratio? As I mentioned at the beginning the problem of the society that we increased with 15 ppm the average de-level just because we changed the diet. But if we can move it back to the 125 ppm, 140 ppm, then that would be a big step forward to reduce the incidence of metabolic disease and cancer In our body. When we talk about how can leave our body, that belongs to, I guess, the proteins and the NH2 groups of the amino acids, Because in a biochemical reactions the amino groups are collecting the deuterium and that way we can eliminate from the body the de-level and the deuterium. And I also heard someone said that maybe the microbiome also can be responsible, modifying the deuterium-hydrogen ratio and removing it. I have read papers that different microbes has a very big discrimination between deuterium-hydrogen ratio and that way again can modify this DH ratio. So all these things, finally, will provide us a given de-level altogether. But so what? I would like to say that the deuterium is essential. The deuterium-hydrogen ratio is the way that when the cell can modify it, because they are deactivating the sodium-hydrogen or because they properly work in mitochondria and changing the DH ratio, that way the cells are able to send a message to all the molecules in the cell because in the exchangeable position always will be an equilibrium. So if there is an increase in the DH ratio because the activation of sodium-hydrogen, that will send the message to all the molecules and that means simultaneously the cells can regulate the gene expression, protein activity.

Speaker 2: 37:48

Let me tell you another experiment, what we have published. So we know that the small pharma, big pharma, is targeting a gene which was identified to have a key role in the cancer development. So we know one of the first gene was the tisening kinase, and so my question was whether we can modify the gene expression, just changing the de-concentration of the cell. So we kept the cells in a deuterium-depleted media, in normal media and deuterium-androgen media, 300 ppm, and we were able to check the expression of over 700 genes. Over 200 was kinase gene and over 200 was cancer-related genes.

Speaker 2: 38:41

So it is called a nanostring technology, which means we were able to count one by one the copy number of a given gene. So how many copies was made in different de-concentration of the cell? And what we found? That not the lower de-concentration was a key but the higher the level was because 99% of the cells responded to the higher de-concentration. So when we use the deuterium-depleted water, one way we triggered the apoptosis because the radicose. But that way we simultaneously inhibit hundreds of genes having role in the cell division, not just one gene, one of the target of cancer drug. So when we talk about that, the cells can modify the de-age ratio. The key message is that no-transcript. That way the cell are organized and harmonized the 2000 bicochemical processes and the expression of thousands of genes. And this is how it works?

Speaker 1: 39:55

Yeah, and it makes sense to me that the deuterium level we adapted to a deuterium level of our environment and I guess I would ask is that a function of mitochondrial haplotype and we should be eating the diet from which our mother's lineage has come from? That, to me, makes the most sense with regard to what our adapted deuterium level is.

Speaker 2: 40:18

So when we start to consume deuterium-depleted water, that is challenging. We typically say that we need about three to four months to see the efficacy of the deuterium depletion, for example in cancer patients, Because slowly there is a decrease in the can modify the expression of genes, the activity of different enzymes and the healthy cells can do that. But challenging, challenging day by day the cancer cells, hopefully we can trigger the apoptosis and when we reach the equilibrium then all the metabolites will be adapted to a lower de-concentration. So when we talk about healthy people, that should be between the 100, 25, 140 ppm. But when we talk about cancer patients, we reduce and change the D level every two, three months, Because then we reach the equilibrium. Then the cancer cells which survive that part of the reduction in D level, they will be adapted to that level and slowly they can grow again. So when we talk about cancer patients, we have to gradually and on a long period of time reducing the level. That is the way how we can eliminate, hopefully, all the cancer cells from the body.

Speaker 1: 41:47

Okay, good, because that's what I wanted to talk about next, which is protocols and practical implementation. Because, like I mentioned to you earlier, before we started recording, I see in my clinic and all across Australia there are people that have cancer diagnoses and they want to know what more they can do to increase their chances of a better outcome. So the question I have is, that is a protocol of deuterium depletion in active cancer. Is that something a patient can do themselves? Is that something that requires close supervision, or how would you see the most safe and effective way of doing a deuterium depletion strategy for cancer?

Speaker 2: 42:37

This is a tough question because our aim is and our company working on to register deuterium depletion water as a cancer drug. So we have the facility to produce deuterium depletion water in accordance to the GMP rules and we are waiting for investors to finance the clinical study. So right now we cannot say that the deuterium depletion is part of the oncotherapy. But my duty, I guess, and my job to bring it to the point when all the oncologists worldwide will think about how to integrate deuterium depletion to the existing therapy. And of course I keep working on it for over 30 years and it's very difficult to share all the knowledge. But this is the reason I wrote a book. So in the deuterium depletion this is the title of the book I wrote down the protocols. What would be the best way to integrate deuterium depletion to radiotherapy, to surgery, to hormone therapy, targeted therapy, immunotherapy, whatever? Because I don't believe that we have to replace the existing therapy. We have to support the therapy with deuterium depletion and that would be the way to win in that war which is called cancer war. So we have. Of course, I guess I'm the only person who have experienced with thousands of cancer patients. I have been talking for over 30 years and in that book I try to summarize the knowledge that I collected. So there are a couple of rules. If somebody is diagnosed with cancer, follow the protocols, what the oncologist says. I never intervene and do nothing about to replace it with deuterium depletion water. So the protocol should be one example. They diagnose the tumor and they decide to operate. If the patients had a couple of weeks, two, three weeks before operation and start to consume DW, that way we can increase the operability of the tumor, it will be much easier to remove. That could be critical in a rectum tumor, for example, whether they can save the illness or no. And there are other parts or other types of cancer when very important whether we can get a shrinkage of the tumor and the operation would be much better. The other option is the radiotherapy. What we see that and we know that the radiotherapy cause and trigger radicals in the tumor and this is the reason that the radiotherapy is so good and so effective. So we see very strong synergistic effect when the radiotherapy is combined with the deuterium depletion. We just recently published a paper with 55 glioblastoma patients and within that 55 patients there were 37. And they were lucky to combine in DW with radiotherapy and the medial survivor time was three times longer than those who just received in the conventional therapy because it was 47 months. So showing that how good combination can be the radiotherapy with DW.

Speaker 2: 46:14

And then we can talk about hormone therapy, for example with prostate cancer. In that case, somebody diagnosed with prostate cancer, they received the. If it's not operable, they received the hormone therapy. After two, three years became hormone resistant. Then the patient received some other and then they cannot control it. What we suggest if the hormone therapy is effective, the tumor marker values go down. Then we recommend stop the hormone, start to consume DW and we keep them the tumor marker in a low level and maybe after half a year they can check the PSA. It is still low. Stop the DW and do nothing. When they see that there is an increase in the tumor marker, start again with DW and then we are not able to keep the PS in a low level, then come back with the hormone therapy and after three zero six months they can stop again the hormone therapy.

Speaker 2: 47:22

We have paper, we published paper that we kept control for over 10 years and the patients haven't received hormone therapy because the DW could keep the PSA on a low level and we always say that combining with the targeted therapy, the DW again can be a very good combination.

Speaker 2: 47:48

For example, the Herceptin. It's a good drug to treat breast cancer and that would be the combination, whether it's metabolic disease or genetic disease the cancer because there is connection, there is a gene amplification of the EGFR, epidermal Gross Factor receptor and there are much more receptor on the surface of the cell. It means when the growth hormone binds to the membrane and there are more receptor much easier and faster can stimulate the sodium hydrogen transport system, which means much faster can generate a higher DHS ratio. So when we combine the Ddela Bue with, for example, with Herceptin, which inhibit the binding between the growth hormone to the receptor and inhibit the increase of the DHS ratio, that again became very, very effective to treat the breast cancer patients with that type of targeted drug. That is true for tyrosine kinase inhibitors. So that would be the way. I hope in the foreseeable future that the oncologist can combine it and can integrate due to indibition to the existing therapy.

Speaker 1: 49:19

Yeah, and I want to echo that statement, which is that no one's suggesting that they do discontinue, or patients discontinue their existing therapy. This is an adjunct, an addition to what is also going on from a conventional treatment point of view, and to me it makes so much sense that we can layer on top of each other different protocols that target the mitochondria and support mitochondrial function. And obviously in my previous podcast my listeners will know that I've talked to Thomas Seeger, who has advocated for cold therapy. There's established evidence for fasting and if we're adding things like ketogenic diet and deuterium depletion on top of all these other protocols, then that makes sense that we're basically doing our best to support mitochondrial function and therefore improving the outcome. I want to ask you again about a bit more about the exact approach, because obviously people are going to be reading your book. Not everyone can work with you. Specifically, do people need to get a serum deuterium level tested before embarking on deuterium depletion, or will some people simply just commence drinking deuterium depleted water, as per your protocol?

Speaker 2: 50:44

We are just working on a paper to publish that following. So we already have measured the D level of the blood and another study we followed how the deuterium level is changing. So I don't believe that the measuring of D level is a key issue. The key issue is to consume deuterium depleted water. But of course when we start a clinical study we will take the samples and measure it and find the correlation how fast we have to reduce the D level, how long we have to keep it on a low level, the D level. That again takes time, takes money and takes big effort to figure out all the details of this.

Speaker 2: 51:30

What we can state that consuming DDW will reduce the D level and there is a strong correlation that the lower the de-concentration of the DDW, the lower will be the knee level of the patient's de-concentration. Typically we can say that within two, three months there is equilibrium with a given de-concentration. So if we want to keep a gradual decrease of D level we have to change the D level intake of the de-concentration. And it is another question, depending on two more types how fast and how frequently we change the D level of the consuming DDW. And it should be hundred different times depending on staging and the conventional therapy and all these things.

Speaker 2: 52:26

But the basic rule is that two, three months change the D level. This is what we say. To measure the D-level can be important when we talk about whether that water is real due to depletion, because unfortunately it is very easy to sell fake products which is said due to depletion. So sometimes we receive samples from patients and water samples and that way we can measure it and we send back what is the D-level. We typically use precipitated exhaled brass water which reflects the de-concentration of the body. So if those who are wondering whether the D-level is a given, which is said about a given water, this is a way to either sending the water samples or checking the D-level of the exhaled brass, precipitated brass water.

Speaker 1: 53:37

Okay and say someone embarks upon a deuterium-depleting protocol for, say, they've got active cancer, what are the potential side effects or adverse effects from doing this? Is there a tumour-licence that they might have to deal with, or is this a well-tolerated procedure on the part? Does it depend on the tumour type? Let us know about that.

Speaker 2: 54:03

So if someone starts to consume DW, of course, depending on the size of the tumour, the sensitivity of the tumour, they not feel better because when the tumour starts to necrotize, this is what the people can feel Tumour can be warmer. The size of the tumour temporary can be bigger because we initiate an inflammatory reaction. Even we recommend not to go to CT or MRI after starting to consume DW because in the first two, three months that maybe you show the bigger tumour size but that means that there are more cancer cells. But that is an inflammatory reaction, that the tumour is getting bigger, that the immune system is going to remove the dead cells. So lung cancer patients starting coughing out the tumour, the necrotize tumour irritate the lung and coughing out the tumour, the colon cancer some stuff can be removed by the faces, can be some slight blood in the faces. So these are always related to the healing process and when we check the blood counts of these people we never see that we drop the blood cell number or white blood cell number. So we do not reduce the immune system activity or these things. So this is not a so-called chemotherapy type of intervention.

Speaker 2: 55:45

When we are suggesting people consuming DW, the people feel it more. Gain vein, sometimes the bone metastasis. The pain is getting stronger at the beginning than they can feel the relief that no strong pain in the bone. So the point is that starting to consume DW, do not hope that next day you feel better. No, it takes two, three months that we can conclude. Okay, that was the beginning and now we are here and to prove it with CT, mri or other objective numbers which prove the improvement of the patient.

Speaker 1: 56:35

Yeah, and I want to echo the point you made, which is that this isn't an immunosuppressing therapy and, contrary to what chemotherapeutic agents are doing, or immunosuppressive agents, this is not going to be dampening down or suppressing the immune system. So I guess that is important, because every intervention that we prescribe in medicine well, every medication that we prescribe in medicine has adverse effects. But simply deuterium, depleting the water to what you're advocating for isn't, as you mentioned, having an adverse effect on healthy cells. So I think that's a very important point. So my question is how to scale this kind of oncological treatment or give more patients access to this, because it sounds like it's quite a specialized process that you need to follow up with someone. Or have you found that people are managing themselves on just reading your book? Or how is the average person going with deuterium depletion for cancer?

Speaker 2: 57:55

I guess most of the average people somehow got some information about DW. They can get it one way or other and they start to consume. Followed over 2000 cancer patients. They regularly came back to us, shared the data and we were chatting about his or her stages. But 99% of the patients just start to consume and do it one way or other.

Speaker 2: 58:27

We are very happy if someone starts to learn something first about the deuterium depletion, because sometimes it's happened with our partners that they started to consume and after a couple of months come and asking and maybe they did not use the right D level, they did not change the D level on the right time or they did not integrate it on the best way deuterium depletion to the therapy. So I guess that should require a long time to educate the oncology society and to educate the cancer population and the healthy population and I hope we can proceed in that way. But the critical step is the clinical study and the approval from the authority. So the rule says we cannot claim. But this is the way we are working on to register DW as a drug, because that will help us to communicate directly and this is the only way that we can take part of the oncotherapy, the DW.

Speaker 1: 59:43

Yeah, it's interesting and important question because there's so many potential doctors who could assist their patients with a deuterium depletion protocol, given the safety and given the fact that this isn't an immunosuppressing drug, and to simply guide people through this. With the explosion in cancer diagnoses, I think people need as many tools as possible. So it just seems like a big challenge in my mind is to provide enough education to doctors and maybe oncologist, family medicine doctors, to be able to have enough training to guide patients through this protocol, so that patients aren't simply on their own doing a treatment protocol by themselves without supervision.

Speaker 2: 1:00:33

I guess they are waiting for the approval from the authority. So the step one to get the approval from the authority, fda, ema and then should be part of the oncotherapy. Without that we cannot proceed. Yeah unfortunately.

Speaker 1: 1:00:52

And do you train? Does your organization train doctors or are there courses?

Speaker 2: 1:00:56

that no, there's no, no, no.

Speaker 1: 1:01:00

Yeah, okay, yeah, no, sir, because I'm just. I'm just thinking about how we can give wider access to people and but, like you said, we do need more, I guess robust studies to satisfy the regulatory bodies. But from from the 30 years and the two more than 2000 patients that you've dealt with, sounds like this is unequivocally a safe intervention and effective.

Speaker 2: 1:01:30

So we were lucky to close a phase two double my chemical trial with prostate cancer and in that study we could prove the efficacy of DW. But the authority did not accept it and then we just so that was a so called prospective study. But what we have done, we publish data with a so called retrospective study. So we collected over 200 breast cancer patients and we published the data. Then we published the glioblastoma 55 patients. We published almost 200 lung cancer patients. So in that case we very precisely could choose and make the subgroups depending on the staging type of the lung cancer, type of the therapy. And we could prove that the median survival time was increased with three to seven for the increase, which is extremely clear evidence that the due to depression how effective can be. But maybe the the best way and the fastest way to to reduce the death goes by cancer If the DW would be part of the therapy when somebody is in a remission. So luckily lots of cancer patients became two more free because surgery, radiotherapy and all the other therapy. But the bad news is they go back every half a year and every year and worrying what the control will show and they cannot do anything because the therapy was completed and waiting whether there is a recurrence of cancer or not. So we again published a paper that 204 cancer patients consuming DW was followed over a thousand years. So that was the cumulative follow up time and we lost 13 people out of 204. Two of them died not because of cancer and a half of them died those who consume DW. They never came back and the average time was they died 4.1 years later.

Speaker 2: 1:03:47

Those who regularly came back consume DW for three, four months every year. They never relapsed. Be patient, the treatment has been completed. They are tumor-free. They would follow that therapy Drinking DW. We recommend tumors 105, tumors 85 ppm. This is what I wrote in my book and they repeat it every year in the next four, five, six, seven years. That way we should prevent the relapse. So that would be my message to all the people who are tumor-free now and to prevent them not be cancer patients again.

Speaker 1: 1:04:30

Yeah, yeah, very interesting. The question I have next is regarding the metabolic syndrome and metabolic diseases, and you mentioned earlier that 125 ppm is the kind of target of the total body deuterium to ppm to resolve metabolic disease. And is this a much less hands-on process than cancer for people who have, say, diabetes, because we're not titrating down the concentration of the deuterium-depleted water? Is that correct? Yeah?

Speaker 2: 1:05:04

Yeah, yeah. So that would be the simplest way to again help the people keep the blood sugar level within the range, prevent blinding and the amputation of the legs and all the things. And even I believe that somebody with a diabetes would consume, for example, 105 ppm for three, four months. Maybe they can stop drinking DW and the blood sugar level will be in the normal range, maybe for a couple of months. After that they stop drinking DW and then they can come back and start again drinking DW. And the longer they can keep the blood sugar level within the range, the better they can prevent all those bad consequences of the high blood sugar level.

Speaker 1: 1:06:00

Yes, that makes sense. And if we again go back to the beginning of the episode where we talked about the mechanism, it's simply improving mitochondrial function and if we think about metabolic diseases as a disease of inefficient or broken mitochondria, then giving them deuterium depleted water will lead to improved efficiency of mitochondria and therefore improved glycemia. The question about diet in terms of deuterium essentially it sounds like a high fat carnivore diet is the most deuterium depleted diet. Is that correct?

Speaker 2: 1:06:36

Yeah, I agree, yeah, sure. So we recommend people, when starting to drink DW at the same time, change the diet, some kind of ketogenic type diet. I never say be restrict ketogenic because they cannot keep it on a long term. They should find the best way when they can optimize it and keep it on a long period of time.

Speaker 1: 1:07:03

Yeah, and Dr Boris, who I talked to earlier, was talking about the benefit of high fat carnivore for all the reasons of promoting metabolic water function and optimizing mitochondrial function. So to me it sounds like a high fat diet, ketogenic or carnivore type diet would be the most optimal to do in addition to drinking the deuterium depleted water. For cancer or for metabolic disease, yeah, I fully agree, yes, yeah, and again, there's no reason.

Speaker 1: 1:07:41

I think I just want to make the point for my listeners is that there's no reason why we can't do this therapy in addition to other things like exercise, like respecting our circadian rhythm and our light environment. It's great that this is simply just another tool in the toolbox, so that's how I kind of understand it to be.

Speaker 2: 1:07:58

There are a couple of things that we do recommend not to do, and this is very important. So, for example, I sometimes I didn't understand why the people do not show any improvement even consuming DW, and later it's turned out those who are taking antioxidants on a high dose that prevent the efficacy of DW, and this is the reason of the radicose. So when we are going to trigger radicose, hopefully triggering the necrosis, but if they're taking vitamin C, e, a, selenium, that way we have the cancer cells to work again DW. This is what we recommend. The other we do not recommend the exercises and loading tests, because then the electricity increasing in the blood, no enough oxygen and all this thing. I again found that those cancer patients, they were fine starting to doing exercise, they relapsed. And the third is don't sell no sauna, no hot baths, because again the higher body temperature modified the metabolites which again somehow helped the cancer cells to treat the challenges of the DW. So the drinking DW and not doing that, three different things to optimize the efficacy of DW.

Speaker 1: 1:09:33

OK, thank you for making those points. So it's very common for people to come on with a laundry list of supplements N-acetyl-cystine, high dose vitamin C, cursatin and all kinds of plant antioxidants. So that point that I'll emphasize is that that is going to interfere with the mechanism by which deuterium-depleted water is aiding in your body's clearance of the cancer cells. So that makes sense. And then intense exercise obviously walking is OK, but you're suggesting that high intensity or long distance running is a bad idea.

Speaker 2: 1:10:07

Yeah, we suggest walking epoxy and all this thing.

Speaker 1: 1:10:11

Yes, just walking and obviously avoiding sauna and high temperature. And again, this is if we're using deuterium-depleted water in an oncology cancer type setting. And this is if you're drinking deuterium-depleted water for longevity or metabolic disease. It's not a problem yeah don't worry about it, points that you'd like to make that I haven't asked you about. Specifically with regard to the cancer protocol, what should I?

Speaker 1: 1:10:41

point out relating to cancer protocol, anything that I haven't asked you that you think the listeners should know, say if they decide to start drinking deuterium-depleted water with a cancer diagnosis?

Speaker 2: 1:10:55

I guess all the key points was mentioned if I'm thinking about. Don't drink any other type of liquid and minimize the intake of other liquids. We do not say that you have to use for cooking the DWU, but reduce those foods which has a high water content, of course. But the key issue is, if you cover 1.52 liter with a body weight between 10 kilograms to 80, 90 kilograms, that should be a good dose to trigger that mechanism and keep drinking.

Speaker 1: 1:11:38

And in terms of sourcing reputable deuterium-depleted water. As you mentioned, sourcing can be a problem and this can be counterfeit product on the market. What would you recommend in terms of where to source high quality, pure deuterium-depleted water?

Speaker 2: 1:11:57

So our product caused preventive and this is, I guess, the first deuterium-depleted product on the world. But there are other types of water selling. So when I started my research the world used up about 1 liter deuterium-depleted water for kinetic reaction. Now the world used up about 500 tons deuterium-depleted water. So we can guarantee that the D level is what is on the number on the product. We have 125, 105, 85, 65, 45, and 25 PPM. So that covered the range which should be enough to treat any kind of cancer or metabolic disease. We are checking it. We have a GMP facility. We have a laser equipment control or the production of the product. So this is what we can guarantee. But that doesn't mean that other products on the market also are due to depleted.

Speaker 2: 1:13:04

But of course I cannot be responsible for that type of water.

Speaker 1: 1:13:11

No, not at all. And finally, if a patient is embarking on deuterium-depleted specifically for cancer, is there is a facility that they can consult with that you offer or that any doctors that you endorse offer in terms of guiding them through the protocol?

Speaker 2: 1:13:30

So anyone who send a message, write a letter freely. We discuss them and we help them. So, and right now, within 20 minutes, I will have a meeting with somebody from the United States who is going to asking about that. So this is what I have been doing for 30 years sharing what I have already known, and to involve more and more people, because the more people is familiar with that, the better, because I hope, easier and faster we can reach the aim to cure cancer.

Speaker 1: 1:14:15

Yeah, that's a very, very admirable aim. So thank you very much, dr Schoenlein, for talking to me, and I'll point everyone to your book and I'll include the information in the show notes, because I think that is the best resource that people can embark on, given that there's no real practitioners, especially in Australia, who are able to facilitate this. So I will include that information and I guess everyone is up to themselves to do their own research and make their own decision. And I'll emphasize again that we don't recommend discontinuing your oncology treatment just because you're drinking deuterium depleted water. So thank you very much, dr Schoenlein. Thank you, thank you.

Speaker 2: 1:14:58

It was, I guess, very useful talk. Thank you for your kind Thank you.