We discuss the most important factors influencing health - how light and changes man-made changes in the electromagnetic spectrum influence mitochondria, circadian rhythms and are contributing to modern chronic disease.

Cameron Borg is a qualified nutritionist, practicing pulmonary scientist, podcaster and health coach from Sydney, Australia. He hosts the Ricci Flow Nutrition Podcast, interviewing world leaders including Gerald Pollack, Stephanie Senneff, Scott Zimmerman and more. He is a leader in circadian and quantum health in Australia.
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TIMESTAMPS
00:06:10 The Impact of Changes in the Electromagnetic Environment
00:33:22 The Importance of Environment and Mitochondria
00:36:52 The Role of Latitude and Diet
00:38:21 Cultural Evolution and Traditional Diets
00:41:46 Cultural Practices and Health Optimization
00:45:32 The Benefits of Carnivore Diet and Deuterium Depletion
00:46:01 Nutritional Benefits of Meat Consumption
00:49:20 The Healing Potential of Deuterium Depletion
00:50:20 The Significance of Mitochondria in Health
00:52:46 The Connection Between Light and Mitochondria
00:57:50 Mitochondria and Cancer
01:00:26 The Significance of Mitochondria in Life
01:02:22 Mitochondria and Light Interaction
01:15:04 The Misguided Narrative about the Sun
01:26:10 Misconceptions about Sunlight and Skin Cancer
01:35:24 The Importance of Building a Healthy and Safe Solar Callus

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Dr Max Gulhane: 4:19

Welcome back to the regenerative health podcast. I am sitting down with Cameron Borg Now. Cameron is a nutritionist, a practicing pulmonary technologist and a podcaster on a bunch of very interesting health topics. Now Cameron is probably among maybe five people in Australia who are actually delving deeply into light as health, light as medicine, and asking very important questions to uncover exactly what is going on and how light is really impacting our health. So, cameron, thank you for coming on the podcast.

Cameron Borg: 4:57

Thank you so much for having me, max. That was a great introduction. I'm very chuffed to be on here First time I've been invited as a guest.

Dr Max Gulhane: 5:05

Yeah, so your podcast, the Ricky Flow Nutrition Podcast, was the jumping off point for a couple of guests that I've had on and my listeners will recognize the names, like Scott Zimmerman, stephanie Seneff. You've really thought along very similar lines as I have and very much enjoyed those discussions. But let's start with your brief background. How do you arrive to investigating these type of more interesting, complex and unconventional health paths?

Cameron Borg: 5:42

Yes, I think, like most people, I had a health problem of my own. I was a very sickly child, almost died at childbirth. Very traumatic birth, very sick as a child, and I had asthma, eczema, you name it. I was a very unhappy baby and eventually grew out of it as a teen, sort of started to level out a little bit more, was never really super health conscious, as most teenagers tend to be, and I got tangled up with a staff infection that wouldn't go away and it's just spent thousands of dollars at specialists who just had no idea what to do. And a friend of mine sort of put me on to a couple of people. He got me to listen to a few podcasts and I started to get into nutrition, thinking, wow, isn't it amazing that what we eat can actually change our body's responses to things? And I'd never been interested in the things that I ate and never really thought about how that impacted me. But the idea that it did was very exciting to me and I ended up sorting out all my staff infection myself and realizing that these specialists and doctors don't always know the best thing to do and often they're actually hamstrung by the fact that they live in such a small world of ideas and that really sort of opened the world of health up to me a little bit more.

Cameron Borg: 7:19

I got really passionate about nutrition, this whole food first model. You know, food is everything. That was sort of the world that I was living in at the time and I went to university. I studied nutrition. I didn't learn a damn thing for three years but got a certificate to say that somehow I know more now, which was kind of funny to me. But about halfway through my degree I sort of cottoned on to these people talking about the different aspects of health and why food ranked quite low on the list of things that were most important. And that's when I really started to figure out that these things that guys like Jack Cruise were talking about were really the most important places to be looking at first.

Cameron Borg: 8:07

And it sort of occurred to me as I read, you know, about 2025 books over the course of a semester when I was at uni, you know, just because I'd come on to this wealth of knowledge and I just couldn't stop reading and I realized, you know, over the last 100 years we've encountered, you know, this rise in diseases that we've never seen before. That can't be explained through genetics, because genetics don't work like that. So clearly the environment is the primary factor in all of these. And I thought well, if the environment is the primary factor to explain the chronic disease epidemics, should we not look at the largest changes in the environment over the last century first? Shouldn't that just be the most logical starting point?

Cameron Borg: 8:57

And the unfortunate answer you get there is the electromagnetic environment that we're living in has changed. It's not even remotely the same. And you know, our eyes are funny because we can't see these, these fields, we're not aware that we're exposed to them. But clearly that is the biggest change in our environment over the last century. And light is included in that electromagnetic spectrum. And that is when I really started to realize these changes in our environment have to be the first thing we prioritize. And food has changed over the last century, no one can doubt that. But the reality is, has it changed as much as our light environment? I think there's an argument there to say that it probably hasn't changed as much as our lighting environment.

Cameron Borg: 9:45

And that's where I sort of got interested in things that were beyond the scope of the conventional space and I had to, you know, branch out. And actually, the reason I started the podcast was so I could speak to people that I couldn't get access to otherwise and ask them questions about my own health and sort of start to figure things out like that. And it's just. You know, that's a very brief version of the story, but that's essentially how I got to looking into all of these nooks and crannies, trying to be on the cutting edge as much as possible, and I think that's mirrored by a lot of people who end up, you know, looking into these ideas.

Dr Max Gulhane: 10:29

Definitely the call of the statement that the change in the electromagnetic environment and that we're exposed to is the biggest change. That is a fascinating statement. It's one that I agree with, but one that most people will really scratch their heads at. And the pathway that most kind of health people with health interested is very much dietary focused and for a lot of people they stop. I think they stop at the diet in terms of how can we improve health? So the changes that you refer to from a dietary point of view are obviously the introduction of refined seed oils and, from the early 1910s onwards, and the introduction of highly refined foods like carbs and sugar, and also, you know, maybe perhaps the movement towards vegan and plant based eating and low fat eating in the past 30, 40 years and, I'm sorry, vegan more in the past, maybe 10 years. So explain these changes in the electromagnetic spectrum and why do you think that is more significant than what has happened to our diets?

Cameron Borg: 11:46

Well, I mean starting with light. What we've done essentially since the advent of the incandescent bulb, which is basically running I'm not a physicist or an electrical engineer, but they're with me basically basically running a current through a tungsten filament at a high enough voltage so that it starts producing visible light. Now, to do that with a filament, you actually have to run quite a bit through it to actually get visible light to come out, because tungsten filaments are really good at generating long wavelength light near infrared and infrared which we don't see. So it's basically useless if you want to use it for vision. But we realized somewhere along the way that that light was very inefficient for visual use. So there was this idea that you know well, we can't see it, so let's just remove it and make things more efficient, which I understand. It kind of makes sense in that way, and we basically went down, you know, changing from incandescent bulbs to halogens, to fluorescent tubes, and now we've got to LEDs, which are hyper efficient. They're phenomenal pieces of engineering. But what we've done is essentially we've we have removed 90% of the spectrum and we didn't even know it because we can't tell and because our eyes are so easy to trick.

Cameron Borg: 13:16

You're lured into this sense of safety where, you know, a light is a light and a light is not a light. Unfortunately and I have, I'm lucky enough to be sitting here right in front of one of Scott's bulbs Scott Zimmerman's bulbs where, you know, I'm being bathed with quite a bit of near infrared broadband near infrared right now, but I'm I know I'm the only person in Australia with this light bulb and it's illegal to own light bulbs, to purchase light bulbs like this in Australia and most European countries and in the States and things like that. So light has fundamentally changed beyond recognition. It's just our eyes are not suited to understand that and that's a huge problem. So, you know, I've been reading quite a bit of Nick Lane recently, who is one of my favorite writers, and in his book the Vital Question, he really pins down this idea that this endosymbiotic event, the use of what we now call a mitochondria, which is these old purple bacteria going inside of another single celled organism that endosymbiotic event is so important in in what we are today. And fundamentally, our mitochondria are run by the influence of light and, conversely, not only run by light but also run by the darkness. You know, you can't take on light without thinking about the darkness as well, because they're both as important as one another, and you could think of that as an enormous departure in our electromagnetic spectrum as well. We no longer have true darkness anymore, we no longer have night, and that is a massive change. And that's on the circadian side mostly. But the effects of those short wavelength lights that we're getting LEDs on the skin and in the eyes at night are also detrimental. So just on the light side we're experiencing an enormous amount of shift. You know, beyond, beyond what we could even think about. And then we have the introduction of telecommunications and you know, we have things like you know, I think, the real.

Cameron Borg: 15:33

There are a lot of people talking about 5G, and I think that's important because 5G does seem to be extremely detrimental. You know anyone who doesn't believe that. I mean, there's so many books out there. You know the invisible rainbow, arthur Firstenburg, overpowered by Martin Blank. You go back and read all of Robert Becker and Andrew Marino's work and you will understand very quickly that these even very, very weak electromagnetic fields have tangible biological effects. But I think really the most pernicious is Wi-Fi, because it's everywhere. 5g is not everywhere at the moment. Perhaps that's what they're trying to do. But Wi-Fi is just so pernicious, it's everywhere and I think the effects of Wi-Fi are quite well documented in the literature.

Cameron Borg: 16:30

I know of rat studies showing that the 2.4 GHz is damaging the islet cells of the pancreas, and you know this is. This makes a lot of sense when you think about type 2 diabetes and metabolic syndrome. You know growing exponential rates. Unfortunately, not many people are looking into this. But you know we're living on a world that no longer resembles our ancestors' world. There's nowhere on this planet that you can escape the long radio wave communication signals, which is quite sad when you think about it, that we will never.

Cameron Borg: 17:10

You know we don't want to be in a Faraday cage either, because we actually need some. We need the native electromagnetic fields that are a result of the interaction between the sun and the earth's atmosphere. But you know finding that balance is extremely difficult. And you know we've got high voltage power lines, cell towers, satellites, phones in our pockets all the time, laptops, you name it. Anything that's got, you know, a battery in it is producing some sort of field. And if it's a phone, if it's a communication device, then it's not only producing the radio waves, it's producing the bi-directional microwaves as well, and all of these things have biological effects.

Cameron Borg: 17:55

It would be very nice to think that you know the old story that if it's not thermal energy, then it doesn't matter, if it's not ionizing, then it doesn't matter, which is such a small-minded and myopic way of viewing the way our bodies work. You know we're electrical beings, you know. You know we can pick up brain signals, heart signals from, you know, way outside the body, and I think it would be foolish to think that we're not being impacted by all the soup of electromagnetic fields that we're in, unfortunately, you know, I do think that that's the biggest change, but it's also the one that's, I guess, arguably the most difficult to try and adjust and get as right as you possibly can. Because sometimes the answer is you know, you have to move, you have to go somewhere else, you have to change job, you have to do these massive things and unfortunately most people, for right or for wrong, aren't ready to make that step, and that's completely understandable. But it is important to acknowledge because it's quite easy to, you know, put the phone on airplane mode. It's quite easy to switch everything off at night. You know, it's quite easy to go out to the box and put the kill switch and make sure you're sleeping with as little influence from these fields as possible. So, even though it's kind of like we'll never experience a world that is free of these non native, these man made electromagnetic fields, we can quite easily limit our exposure in our homes and in our workplaces. So I try not to be negative about these things, because I do think we can make differences and I think in some cases the man-made electromagnetic fields are not as bad as some people say that they are, or at least I hope that that's the case. But the reality is we can all make differences quite easily in our homes and workplaces and just in our daily practices. You know putting the phone away, you know reading a book instead of being on the laptop. All of these things are going to make a difference. So I think that's fundamentally where I see this largest shift in the environment that we are living in now, and I think it has extraordinary explanatory power with regard to what we're seeing with regards to health and disease.

Cameron Borg: 20:32

But it's a very difficult topic to research. Not many people are funding this. As soon as you start looking into it, you end up like the Swedish researcher, oli Johansen, who was at the Karolinsk Institute doing this work and now he finds himself with no office. I think he was called the biggest quack of the year a few years back in Sweden. This guy is a serious researcher who is calling for changing the laws, predominantly to protect children, because they are the most susceptible to these waves. So we're in a bit of a tough spot with regard to researching the effects of this part of our environment. But I think more and more people are beginning to understand that you know, keeping your phone in your bra or your front pocket, you know there are most definitely risks associated with that. So I think it's not a hard sell to go that far. But to go further with what we're saying, that's a little bit more of a difficult story to get across.

Dr Max Gulhane: 21:42

Yeah, there's so much there. Cameron and I have previously recorded with a bunch of guests who've discussed this topic as well, and really Tristan Scott's episodes are very important and informative. The change that you mentioned particularly and I like to put a date or approximate date on it to really help people to understand is basically the late 1800s when electricity was essentially invented and the light bulb. The electricity wars happened and then eventually there was widespread use of electricity. And previously that was when we had the first of this non-visible light at night that didn't come from fire, that didn't come from the moon, and that's kind of that's really the before and after, because prior to that time, prior to the invention of electricity, the electromagnetic spectrum that we all were bathed in was natural, it was visible, it was sunlight during the day, including ultraviolet and infrared, and then basically very little at night, and then you had these human resonance and a couple of very, very faint long range radio frequencies. So if you think about that, and then you think about what we are sitting in today in a soup of radio frequency radiation from Wi-Fi, 4g, 3g, 4g, 5g, 5g and then layering that on top of this artificial blue light because you alluded to the point that we've stripped out infrared. Well, although incandescent and halogen was still a problem at night, it was during the day. At least it gave us some infrared, which is what we need from the sun and that's what the sun is providing. So, and yeah, really, really just stripping it back in the name of efficiency.

Dr Max Gulhane: 23:39

The point about diabetes is very interesting and I think that, because no one can see these non-nave EMFs, the harm that they've done is, I think, ascribed to food, and it's ascribed to the carbs and the seed oils, which are no doubt exacerbating the problem. But the fascinating implication is that perhaps it was the light at night and the Wi-Fi that was essentially setting up the metabolic ground or the metabolic problem that the food later exacerbates, and I think anyone who's worked a shift work or has had to stay up all night will tell you that they crave carbs and sweet things the next morning. So it's a very interesting thought to think that it's really our environmental electromagnetic signature environment that's really setting the stage for what the food later exacerbates.

Cameron Borg: 24:42

Yeah, absolutely. And that's what really gets me about the books, like the China Study by T Colin Campbell. He talks about the differences in cancer incidents between the people eating the most meat and the people eating the least meat in China. And, of course, the people eating the most meat were the ones living in the cities and the ones eating the least amount of meat were in. You know, they were out in the rural areas, you know, with firelight at night, and it's like dude, it's the completely different environment, it's not the meat. You know you're missing the whole point. You know, and that's what really gets me about a lot of these. You know these trends that you see. They completely dodge all of the big hitters in the environmental influences you know they're not talking about. Well, clearly the people in rural areas had tighter circadian rhythms. Clearly they were getting more sunlight and they were earthing more because they were out in the rice paddy fields. You know, with no shoes on. How can you not be taking this into account?

Cameron Borg: 25:48

And of course, it all comes back to, you know, ideology. It's very easy. And you know the reason we grab onto food, this whole food first idea, is because it's tangible, we can track it, we can see it, we can taste it. It's there, it's tangible, we can understand it, we can grasp what's going on there. You know this whole idea of calories in calories out super appealing because it's an equation. You know that's not at all how it works. You know we're an infinitely complex biological system. That's not how it works. You can't just, you know, break it down to. You know X amount of calories You're going to lose weight, you're going to be better.

Cameron Borg: 26:25

But you know, at the end of the day, it's very easy to grab onto these ideas because they're not abstract, or at least they're minimally abstract. And I completely understand that because I fell for the same thing. You know, I was a, I was a vegan for 18 months and still recovering now. You know this is like six, six years down the road. You know it's, it's dangerous, these, these ideas, and that's that's why I try not to have. You know, I don't really engage that much in the diet side of things. You'll notice I barely have any podcasts with people who talk about diet and nutrition because fundamentally I'm not all that interested.

Cameron Borg: 27:07

And you know I think you know I've stayed extremely quiet on the on the issue of seed oils, primarily because I don't. They're not, it's not food. So you know, if you asked me, you know, is a chair healthy? I'd say, well, it's not food, so it's a bad question. I see seed oils as the same thing. You know cotton seed oil, canola oil. It's not food, so it's not part of the the conversation to me.

Cameron Borg: 27:36

And you know you can find studies that show increased, increased intake of omega six fatty acids relative to saturated fatty acids. Has, you know, better health outcomes. You know so what you know? No, none of the other environmental conditions are taken into, are taking into account at all.

Cameron Borg: 27:57

So you know, and that's that's part of just having a discerning eye when you're looking at these types of things and I think that's one of the great powers of looking at health and and wellness and beyond in the way that we're sort of approaching it is because it's such a broad and encompassing view that you you're it's much more difficult to fall into bad patterns of thought when you're trying to encapsulate it into with everything else and trying to make it make sense with all of these environmental conditions.

Cameron Borg: 28:29

You sort of fortify yourself against bad ideas and and ideology, which is one of the reasons why it's been so appealing to me, because I've just been burned too many times by you know crappy ideas that you know sound great on an Instagram reel or a TikTok, but you know they simply it's just an, it's just an ideology and yeah, that's. That's what I really like about looking at it. This this way is because you think with logic instead of just being captured by ideas. Everything has to pass through the litmus test of well, does this make sense in the context of our evolutionary past? Doesn't make sense in the context of knowing how our cells work? You know how a mitochondria drives a proton gradient, so much more difficult to have to be captured by bad ideas when you're thinking about things at that level.

Dr Max Gulhane: 29:23

Yeah, 100%. And to really kind of emphasize the point, the implications of of not accounting for our light environment and this electromagnetic environment, is that a lot of the findings that are in published literature with regard to dietary interventions, they they might not and probably not invalid because they haven't controlled for the light environment, they haven't controlled for changes in the light environment, things like the circadian variation in insulin sensitivity and in leptin sensitivity, and all these very, very important modifiers of our physiology and our bodies and effect of things like of how we process food. They're not, they're not included, they're not accounted for, they're not controlled for. So it and I see, I see people and other kind of influences, and maybe you know so-called leaders in the, in the health space, you know, argue themselves blue with each other and over some nuance or some specific idea, going back and forth, and you know both of them well.

Dr Max Gulhane: 30:34

Maybe one of them is sitting in natural light, the other one is under, you know, an isolated LED bulb and it's, you know, it's the Dunning-Kruger effect written large. Because they simply, they simply have no idea what they don't know with regard to the, the, the light environment, how that's implicating things. And it's not to sound arrogant. But you know if you are kind of going to war with someone over the calories and calories out model and you know making a hullabaloo and really you know embarrassing self-advice, but you know there's there's this big kind of elephant in the room which is, and that that person's potentially, you know, exposed to artificial light 18 hours a day and not respecting their circadian rhythm and they don't understand that these has meaningful effects on on these biological processes that they're supposed to be an expert on.

Cameron Borg: 31:29

Yeah, I mean it's, it's fascinating because you know, you look at, like the, the hudza in Tanzania, and you know they drink Coca-Cola. And you know, every few weeks they'll get cornmeal dropped off and they will. They will stop hunting and gathering and they'll just eat. You know what's been dropped off, all these, all these grains they make like a porridge and they love the stuff because it's, you know, it's a quick carbs, it's, you know, it's tasty. That's what we're designed to seek. And you know you track their microbiome. You track all their, all their. You know the shifts in the microbes that make up their gut and it doesn't change why? Because they're they're have a look at their environment. You know they're on the equator, they're perfectly adapted to their environment, they're living exactly where they're evolved to.

Cameron Borg: 32:18

You know I'm not living where I'm, where I'm evolved to. My mitochondria. You know my mom is has, you know, heritage from the UK. That's where my mitochondria are from, fundamentally. And I'm living 33 degrees south of the equator, in Sydney, which, arguably, is probably better for me to to have that additional um photonic energy where I am.

Cameron Borg: 32:46

But yeah, I mean all these things just don't get taken into account and and nutrition is basically a laughing stock in the field of scientific research. Um, it's, it is. It's just a laughing stock, and there are, for reasons you just covered, but you know there are very few nutrition researchers who I take seriously. I think the only one I really like is David Rubenheimer. Um, and he has come up. He's put forward the protein leverage hypothesis, which is the closest thing you'll ever get to a physical law when looking at nutrition. It works all the way from Drosophila to human beings. You know, the, the um, the nutritional geometry is exactly the same, and the big takeaway from his work is that, uh, we are designed to prioritize protein because we cannot store amino acids. We can store fat, we can store carbohydrate, we cannot store protein, we cannot store amino acids. So we have to prioritize amino acids. And you know it's very simple. It's again this is we're not talking scientifically here, we're just talking logically. You don't have to be a PhD researcher to get this. Um, you know, when you prioritize protein, hey guess what happens? Satiety goes up, you know, lean muscle goes up. Um, visceral fat goes down, you know, um, leptin and ghrelin get balanced more, more evenly, and this is just. Obviously. You know it's nothing taking into account all of the environmental considerations we were talking about before. But the point is, you know this is not science, this is just logic at this point.

Cameron Borg: 34:21

And you know, like you said, you got all these people arguing online about. You know the science, you know what study said, what you can. You can find studies that you know. Do any topic. You know we've got um researchers at Harvard saying fruit loops are healthy.

Cameron Borg: 34:37

If you're going to say, um, you know, and new, true, as far as nutrition research goes, I like to stick to um, you know, basically the stuff that comes from the ancestral diets. You know, I think Western A prices work was really informative for me. Um, I don't know if you've read uh biochemical individuality by Roger J Williams. Uh, roger Williams discovered vitamin B five and his book biochemical individuality is a must read if you want to understand um nutrition and why everyone's needs are so different. Um, you know, in that book there are diagrams of. You know how different uh the anatomy of uh different individuals can be. You know even the way that the vowels of the heart are sort of wired around it can be vastly different, even in siblings. Um, you know colon length. You know the length of the GI tract can be markedly different between two individuals. And you know, obviously someone who has a shorter GI tract is going to fare probably a little bit worse with more fiber than someone with a longer GI tract. And I think none of these nuances get taken into consideration, because we like to think that, um, you know where, where this you know average person and of course, the, this hypothetical average person in in a population has one breast and one testicle. So I would hardly, you know, use that as a, as a gauge to see, to say what you should be doing.

Cameron Borg: 36:10

Um, and again, that's it. That's what makes this way of looking at things from this sort of top down. You know you want to look at the most important things first. You're going to get it's that 80, 20 principle. You know, if you can do the 20% of the most important things, you'll cover 80% of your bases and then you can start tweaking from there.

Cameron Borg: 36:29

Um, and yeah, that's I mean, don't get me started on nutrition research, but um, yeah, I mean, my thoughts are fundamentally around nutrition. You know protein has to be prioritized. That's very clear. Um, don't eat seed oils because it's not food, like that's very simple. Don't eat food products because they're not food.

Cameron Borg: 36:52

Um, and I think beyond that. You know, if you're doing all of the other things right, you probably be pretty okay. Um, I, you know, I'm not even against grains and legumes and that kind of thing, like I eat everything. Uh, I don't like, probably just cause I've been burned too many times with diet and dogma, but I try not to buy into that. Um, but you know, the reality is, if you're following the basics, you know, just think logically. You know, you read Westinay Price's book, you'll understand straight away what human beings are meant to be prioritizing. Roughly Obviously, it differs around the world depending on availability. But, um, what if you can apply those same ways of thinking? You know, the, the food sort of in some sense takes care of itself. It's the other things that matter. Um, quite a bit more.

Dr Max Gulhane: 37:41

Yeah, and, and I'm just flagging the mitochondria, I want to talk about them at some point. I'm glad that you brought up the hudzer and this, this um idea that they're essentially eating all kinds of foods that would be looked down upon in in the kind of health sphere, the dietary centric health influences sphere, um, and they would say that that's incompatible with the kind of health that we're observing from these people. But, uh, dr Jacques Cruz is famous for saying that if you have those electromagnetic uh humans dialed, if you have, if someone's grounded, if they're living in the latitude and the solar yield that their mitochondria are evolved for, uh, if they are respecting the dark cycle of the circadian rhythm, they can eat, to quote him, shit on a shingle and still thrive. And, um, I think recently one of the the marathon runner who set some very, very impressive record was he was eating oatmeal. Um, the point was not that the food, the point was that that guy was again in his niche, he was in the environment that suited his uh biology and his, his mitochondria.

Dr Max Gulhane: 38:52

So the and I'm just going to make a point, and I have been making this point maybe for the past um eight months because, uh, I think it's important, and that is Dr Paul Sardino, who started as a pure carnivore and then eventually transitioned to adding fruit and honey because he suffered, um you know, adverse um effects on his serum, his electrolytes.

Dr Max Gulhane: 39:16

He had symptoms with um related to low electrode levels and um perhaps even flagging testosterone and androgen levels, and he fixed those by adding in local seasonal fruit and honey.

Dr Max Gulhane: 39:29

But what and and I guess this was used as justification in in the terms of his narrative for saying that everyone should um eat fruit and honey and we shouldn't be uh doing ketogenic diet. And that is is is ridiculous and it's a complete generalization and ignoring the fact that his move from a higher latitude to the equatorial um Costa Rica um prompted and demanded that he include those foods to to correctly balance his, his electrolytes and and to have insulin spiking throughout the day, because it was uh ancestrally and and evolutionarily appropriate. So I really want to add that, because this is the message that no one is getting, and people are saying uh kind of setting up their, their weapons and they're digging their trenches along these dietary uh wars and and battle lines, when and no, no, they're not making the distinction that our electromagnetic environment, our mitochondrial biology, the, the latitude, the temperature, the environment, the season is what is going to dictate what, uh, is the optimal diet, um, and appropriate food inclusion for for you, yeah.

Cameron Borg: 40:41

I mean, try doing the Paul Saladino thing in Oslo. You know, not going to happen, not going to work. Um, first of all, I mean, the weird thing is you can source all of those foods, um, all throughout those northern parts of the world, which is potentially something we could talk about. Um, but you know, I'll, I'll. I'll just share briefly the thing that really broke. That really um made me stop being a vegan, and I was. I was pretty hardcore into it, like I was hook, line and sinker, and it was the, the realization that you know.

Cameron Borg: 41:14

You have a look at all these places over the world the closer you are to the equator, generally speaking, the less saturated fat they're eating, and the further away you go, the more saturated fat they're eating. Like, have a look at Italy. What are they? What fat do they use? In Sicily, you know, they use olive oil. What do they use? In Rome? They use butter. What do they use in the north? It's called the large belt. What do they use in the north? They understood how they use that.

Cameron Borg: 41:35

Have a look at India. All the vegetarians are at the south. The further up you go, you get ghee and the further up you go they start cooking with animal fat. You know this, it's built into their religion and their culture there as well, like they understood that the type of fats that you eat change the construction of the membranes of the cells and why that's important. I would love to speak to people about why membrane fluidity is important and how it changes and why it has to change with varying latitude. But you know, these cultures figured it out because they had to. If they didn't figure this out, they just would have died. If there was a vegan culture that came about, you know, in Finland, they would no longer exist because they couldn't do it. So all of these things were meticulously figured out through evolution, because it had to be by definition. And that's why, as soon as I started to realize that this stuff is like nature decides, nature decides. You know, we don't really we have a saying it now because of our big fat brains, but that's not really helping us in any way. And that was really the point where I had to sit back and go wow, this, this whole vegan story, just does not make sense. It simply doesn't make sense.

Cameron Borg: 42:55

And I've been teaching a class to a group of, you know, 20 year olds about health and wellness. And I show them a picture in Norway, where they have the annual cod harvest and it's just tens of thousands of cod hung up to dry on these massive racks. And you know, I use that as a point to say, like, nature decides what they did. Because without the cod they didn't have enough UV radiation to synthesize vitamin D. There literally would be no cultures that far north without seafood. It could not happen.

Cameron Borg: 43:37

And this connection that they have and of course, at the time they probably didn't know exactly why they were doing that and why that was so important, but they figured it out. And I think the fact that they figured it out but didn't know precisely why is actually probably a good thing, because have a look at what we've done. I mean, back when Ricketts was a big problem, we knew it could be cured and prevented with cod liver oil and we didn't know why. But we didn't need to know why it worked. So we used it and because, like I said, because of our big fat brain, we wanted to know more. We wanted to know precisely what it was. So instead, eventually we figured out you know it was vitamin D that was the anti-Rikittic factor of the cod liver oil. So we isolated it, and then they give vitamin D, but of course you know we've missed the forest for the trees here. You know the cod liver oil itself had the complement of vitamin A in it as well, and DHA and EPA.

Cameron Borg: 44:40

So I almost think our desire to know precisely what is going on at all time is actually a detriment to us, because we zoom in too far and we can no longer even understand what it is that we're trying to figure out anymore, and I think that's why, looking back at cultures that knew but didn't know, that they knew precisely.

Cameron Borg: 45:04

I remember reading I think it was Synchronicity by Carl Jung, and he wrote about his visit to an African tribe. And every morning, right before the Sun comes up, they all get up and they spit into their hands and they put them out to the rising Sun, and of course it was a superstition that they had to do that to make sure the Sun would rise the next day, otherwise the Sun would get angry at them. Now I think they're a lot smarter than we are because they somehow realise that that had to be ingrained in their culture for them to be able to operate optimally, and the fact that we know more than them in quotes. But don't get that right. I think is a real sign that sometimes it's better to just know that it works but not to ask specifically why, but just trust that nature got it right, because nature did get it right by definition.

Dr Max Gulhane: 46:05

It's that cultural evolved practice which I prefer too often and I think Western Price had various examples of that that he noticed in the Solomon Islands they had rituals where the tribe would bang a drum at dawn, everyone would get up, everyone would essentially been dancing and humming as they watched the sunrise and you can analyse it with this scientific lens that you and I are talking about and they're grounded and getting morning circadian programming in their eye. They are humming, they are getting good activation of their pulmonary system, everything that you can tickle the boxes of an ideal morning routine, from health optimisation, blogger or advice, and they're nailing. But the point is, as you are so eloquently said, cameron, is that they worked that out and there is a agree. There's certain intelligence of getting to the right answer without knowing the details. And I think if you've ever read the Simtaleb, he talks about Fat Tony, and Fat Tony is a Brooklyn, new York character who has no formal school education but he's extremely successful because he's worked out, through a process of cultural Darwinism, the way to thrive and to succeed. So I really think that the siloed approach of modern science and modern specialists really gets in the way and you look at what people like Da Vinci achieved, and they were generalists that they were. He was a generalist, he was able to span these domains and therefore draw connections, see patterns that no one else was seeing. And look you can look at someone like Dr Jarku's. Same thing and the more I think ability that we have to see across these and through these, these individual specialties, that the better we have we're more likely to be able to see the whole elephant rather than just, you know, hold the trunk and say that it's a tree, hold the tail and say that it's that it's a tree I am.

Dr Max Gulhane: 48:11

I also wanted to get your thoughts, and I think you really nailed it with regard to that description of of kind of access to food and what's local, and I've come to the personal thought and maybe I get your thoughts on this that the reason why carnivore diet is seems to be so effective for people in the modern age is because they're so disconnected from their this environmental and electromagnetic niche that we evolved in that and which, and the circadian cycle is regulating things like gut permeability.

Dr Max Gulhane: 48:45

It's regulating and, in terror, site or gut cell turnover, and my thought is that the further away you are from your natural environment with regards to circadian rhythm and light environment, and the more that carnivore is essentially facultatively required because it is the least and to genically provocative from a food toxin point of view. And if your environment is so unsuitable then you essentially need to be held together and by by the lowest provost, lowest toxicity diet and again, not to and I'm one of the biggest advocates of carnivore because it is such a powerful healing modality, especially in the first months of healing severe metabolic or immune disease. But the point is that, and if someone has to be maintained or that protocol To me, that is telling me that they're disrespecting their light environment, they're disrespecting their mitochondrial haplotype, they're disrespecting their the grounding and everything else that we've just talked about. So, yeah, what? What are your thoughts on that?

Cameron Borg: 49:50

Yeah, I mean I, I wholeheartedly agree with that. I think, you know it makes makes me laugh All day long and it doesn't seem to bother me and you know I've had gut issues my entire life but I really think that the big changes are these ones that we were talking about before and you know, I think there are a lot of people out there who really benefit from it, and I think part of that is just the she nutrition you get by eating meat. I mean, it is unmatched, like how many people are not getting an adequate amount of zinc, for instance, and then you start eating meat every day. Hey, all of a sudden you've got one of the most critical nutrients in enough abundance to get stuff done, and that's why you see this really fast. Well, sometimes not not fast, but generally you see a quick improvement in health when you, when you even not even going carnival but just consuming more meat than normal, I think, just purely from a nutrition aspect, you're probably just getting more and that, more that getting you up to an evolutionarily appropriate level of a lot of these ones that tend to be missing, even, even things that aren't nutrients, like Colleen, for instance, you know, sort of like an honorary B vitamin, but one that seems to be left out a lot. You know there are a lot of different things in meat that just generally are missing from most people, so I think that's a big that's a big part of it. I think I know you you just uploaded your episode with Gabbo and you've spoken to yeah, I think this is another big part of it. I mean, I am well, we'll get on to. Actually let's let's talk about a little bit about deuterium, just because I have a bit of a personal story with it that that I haven't shared before.

Cameron Borg: 52:07

But after starting to read Gabbo's work a bit more seriously, last year a good friend of mine told me that his father's bladder cancer had come back and it was invading his kidneys and they wanted to take his kidney out, one of his kidneys out and he knows that I'm into all of this cookie stuff. So he said you know they want to take it out in six weeks. What do you think we should do? I said I'm going to get you some deuterium depleted water and you know I emailed Gabbo and he got back to me straight away. He is just, I mean, being in the position that we are. It's quite overwhelming how much of these guests' lives they give to us, and I emailed him asking him for advice about what to do with my friend's dad. And he emailed me back straight away and said here's what you need to do for six weeks. Let me know how it goes. We got him doing a Deuterium Depletion protocol and he told the doctors and they were like you're crazy, you have no idea what you're doing. You're going to make things really, really bad. And he said no, no, this is what I want to do. I don't want you to take my kidney. Anyway, he demanded they go in and check again and they said we're not doing that. And he demanded. So they eventually agreed and six weeks after doing a Deuterium Depletion protocol, they went back in and they said it was a miracle, there was nothing there to biopsy and it was the best moment I've had, doing all of this stuff, so worth it. But it also made me quite angry. Why am I figuring this out? Why is some kid who doesn't have a PhD, doesn't have any real science background, doesn't know anything? Why am I the one to help make this happen? And the doctors are like well, it's just a miracle. It was such a great moment, but at the same time it was very bittersweet, but I think that just highlights the importance of how tightly regulated our bodies are.

Cameron Borg: 54:26

I'm going to assume that your listeners know the basics of Deuterium and, essentially, the ratio of Deuterium to Hydrogen in the body, although it seems like it can't make that much of a difference. You're thinking one in every 6,600 Hydrogens is a Deuterium. How can that possibly have an effect? But nature doesn't work in a linear fashion. Biology is not a linear machine and this Deuterium factor is a really big problem because a Coca-Cola has like 200 parts per million, whereas the water here in Sydney is like 152 parts per million, and carbohydrate foods concentrate more Deuterium. And arguably, evolutionary diets were much lower in Deuterium content than they are today, and I think that's one of the big benefits of eating more meat is not only are you bringing in fewer Deuterium relative to Hydrogen, you're also bringing in the enough building block in the form of particularly saturated fats, which we know produce more mitochondrial Deuterium-depleted matrix water. We've known this for probably like 80 years. I think I saw the paper in Nature from like 1940s. We've known this for a very long time that saturated fats make the mitochondria more hydrated, and not only that, it's hydrated in the best possible way, because it's actually hydrogen. It's not D2O, it is Hydrogen.

Cameron Borg: 56:09

I don't even think we've scratched the surface of why Deuterium is so important in biology and obviously we need it. We can't grow without it. It's very important, but keeping it in the right ratio. I've become much more convinced that that's a really, really critically important part of this story that we're telling, because I think it fundamentally connects back to the light story, because just like there's a latitude gradient with UV light, there's a latitude gradient with Deuterium on the planet. So and I don't think this has been proved, I'd love to know but I suspect it seems logical to me that the light that's present on the equator helps balance the elevated Deuterium content of their food and drink. So I mean it makes sense to me that the more sunlight that you're getting, the more you're giving your body the opportunity to balance that DH ratio. And I think that's super, super important because it's at the foundational level. I mean you can't really get more foundational than protons, neutrons and electrons and that is fundamentally what the body is built on. So I think that's another big reason of why these low-carb-ish diets tend to really do well.

Cameron Borg: 57:34

But you know I do have concerns with diets that are purely meat and I think, just from a logical point of view, you have to watch things like potassium, magnesium and calcium. You know they're all important and you know they can be difficult to get in the right quantities and of course you're taking you have to take into the account that into account that you know you're not living in an environment that your ancestors did and you know sometimes, like you said, this is probably exactly why Paul made his shift and did it quite discreetly as well, if I'm correct, which I think happens a lot in the health space people not telling their audience that they're not doing well and just pretending that it's all fine on the outside. But yeah, I think that that's another thing to consider and you know I worry about people who you know can't have a tomato without getting a reaction Like, clearly that's clearly something's going wrong there and you know, ideally what you'd be able to do is you'd be able to eat, you know all sorts of things and not have reactions to it. I understand that there are people out there who you know that's going to be a much longer journey, but I think it speaks to the fact that you know, maybe there's something deeper going on that needs to be addressed. If you can't have an eggplant or you can't, you know, have a piece of sourdough bread, perhaps there's something a bit deeper going on, and you know.

Cameron Borg: 59:04

Touching on the gluten thing, again it makes me laugh because I suspect gluten is one of a countless number of things that modulate intestinal permeability. You know, like one of my favorite papers talks about how we basically know less than 1% of the molecules that are in food. Like we just don't know what all these molecules do and it seems absolutely ridiculous to me to think that gluten is the only one that does that sort of thing with the intestines, with those gap junctions. You know, modulating intestinal permeability. I suspect all foods do that to some degree, in different ways, and we just don't understand why that is or the consequences of that.

Dr Max Gulhane: 59:45

Yeah, and my personal opinion is that, when it comes to gluten and this is what mutual guests, dr Sethanie Seneff has talked about to both of us is that it's probably the glyphosate and the glyphosate contamination of these foods that is really acting as a force multiplier to inhibit and your intestinal permeability and disrupt the gut microbiome and that's kind of really making a massive difference.

Dr Max Gulhane: 1:00:12

But the again to emphasize, it's really a healing protocol. That, I think, is the biggest reason why everyone benefits on carnivore and I really treat it like that. I think it's a therapeutic healing protocol. But we want to get people back to a state where they don't form a heap if they eat, as you said, a piece of fermented food or they eat a piece of, not encouraging it. But, as you rightly said, there should be a reason why we should be able to tolerate a little bit of something else. While it's not optimal, it shouldn't send us to, you know, in bed for two days, which is what it sounds like it does to a lot of people, so being held together with sticky tape and bubblegum.

Dr Max Gulhane: 1:00:57

I'm so glad you brought up deuterium and I really agree. I think the benefit of low-carb and carnivore is the fact that it's a deuterium-depleted diet, probably number one. And second, it's providing that surplus of micronutrients that you talked about and really this idea that people are coasting on a subclinical or in some cases clinical but mostly subclinical micronutrient deficiency and they've got, they're having rate limiting enzymatic steps in their body that are not being met when they simply don't have the correct B-vitamin, trace mineral, whatever it is. So simply putting someone on a very, very high meat diet, you're filling in all those gaps so that there's no deficiencies that are essentially slowing down the system on a rate limiting point of view.

Dr Max Gulhane: 1:01:44

The interesting anecdote that you shared about your friend's father I suspect that they would have re-imaged him and found that the primary or whatever the tumor they were looking at had shrunken. And for those who are unfamiliar, I would really encourage listening to my episode with Dr Gabor, sean Lai and listened to Cameron's episode with him and he's done a couple podcasts recently. But the fascinating implication is that reducing the concentration of deuterium in the body with a deuterium-depleted water protocol is something you can do in addition to it doesn't replace a standard oncological therapy, and I really want to emphasize that point no one's advocating.

Cameron Borg: 1:02:23

I will just add that was the only thing we changed. I didn't speak at all to him about changing his diet. It's a relatively standard diet. The only thing that was changed was the water. That's it.

Dr Max Gulhane: 1:02:34

Interesting.

Cameron Borg: 1:02:35

And that was the progress that was made. So imagine what you could do by really maxing out living as circadian-friendly as possible, getting all the light that you need we know that extends lifespan, even with people who have terminal cancer Getting great sleep, eating great food all of those things on top of just getting the deuterium ratio right.

Dr Max Gulhane: 1:03:01

And let's talk about that because it comes down to mitochondria. And in my episode with Thomas Segar he described people who were having their progression of their various cancers who is basically slowed down by a practice of regular ice bathing. So what? I think it would be difficult for someone to make sense of this unless they are putting the mitochondria at the center of their disease model, which is what you're advocating for and I'm advocating for. And suddenly it all makes it starts to make sense.

Dr Max Gulhane: 1:03:31

And the hypothesis or in science we have hypotheses, we try and disprove them with observed findings. But the strength of your hypothesis is how well it can explain the observed phenomena. And if you can put all these pieces together and realize that you can heal people. You can reverse cancer or slope cancer progression with fasting, with sunlight exposure, with a low deuterium diet and water, with cold exposure. And you can explain that because they're all optimizing mitochondrial function and we know that cancer is a mitochondrial problem at its core. So maybe talk about mitochondria as you think about them and how it's relevant to what we've just mentioned.

Cameron Borg: 1:04:17

Yes, so I mean mitochondria, are this absolutely fascinating thing? Probably the endosymbiotic event probably likely only took place once. It is that unlikely and there are people out there who suggest that there will. In the entire universe there's a chance that life like us doesn't exist, because that chance of an archaea swallowing an old purple bacteria and then then them able to live symbiotically and reproduce, that event is so statistically unlikely that it probably only ever happened once. And that is where all multicellular life came from. You know, it is phenomenal to think about that endosymbiotic event is the most important thing that happened in life on this planet because every multicellular organism came from that event.

Cameron Borg: 1:05:16

And if, interestingly, if you took all of the melanin, all of the heme, all of the pigment out of the body, we would be purple, we would glow purple because our mitochondria are old purple bacteria and we would glow purple. And we do glow purple, it's just we can't see it because it's so faint and we have all of these other pigments on us as well. But fundamentally, the ability to, inside the cell, drive a proton gradient and essentially create a battery which is separating the positive and negative charge and then using that potential to spin the ATPAs to create energy. There's arguments to say that that's not how energy is created, but bear with me, I'll stick with. I'll stick with ATPAs the energy currency, and we can maybe flesh that out later but that that ability to drive a proton gradient allowed life to depart those deep, sulfurous hydrothermal vents where the hydrothermal vent was actually an analog of what we have in the mitochondria Now. It the those vents drove a proton gradient and allowed those life forms to basically have an external mitochondria. The fact that we have them in every single cell, except our red blood cells as far as I'm aware there's always an exception but the fact that we have those in every single one of our cells, and it is the defining factor of multicellular life, it's the defining factor. You can't move past that. Like I said before, you should be the first thing we focus on, because it is what sets us apart.

Cameron Borg: 1:06:53

And the mitochondria are fundamentally receptive to the things in our environment. I think they're very receptive to non native electromagnetic fields. They're certainly very receptive to light, and I think a lot of that is coming from near infrared light interacting with cytochrome C, which is where water is made. It's kind of weird to think about that too. Mitochondria make water. I think if you went around on the street and you said to people, do do human cells make water? Do they make H2O? People would say, well, no, that's ridiculous, we have to drink water. But of course we do generate H2O and we do that at cytochrome C, which is this part of the respiratory complex that seems to interact quite strongly with the wavelengths of light that are in the red and near infrared and that is what's helping to drive that proton gradient, which is why red light therapy seems to do so well for almost any condition that it's used on.

Cameron Borg: 1:07:58

I think the fact that red light therapy seems to benefit the function of mitochondria is just a sign that we are no longer living in enough natural sunlight to satisfy our need and, much like someone with a complete zinc deficiency would benefit from a zinc supplement, someone with an absolute red and near infrared deficiency benefits from a red light panel. I think it's just a symptom of the fact that we're not living in the sun enough. I'm not saying red light therapy is bad I think it can be really, really useful but what I'm saying is that it seems to just be a sign that it's a symptom of us living indoors, the same way that high vitamin D is a proxy marker for living outdoors, and that's why it seems to be so. That's why it correlates so well with better health outcomes, whereas when you give vitamin D supplements you don't see those health outcomes. I think it's the same thing here with the red light.

Cameron Borg: 1:09:01

The reason it's making the mitochondria work really well is because they are begging for it. They're saying please, let me out in the sun all day because I need it. I've evolved outside all day. I need the near-infrared all day and when you're inside all day, you're fundamentally gasping for that because the mitochondria aren't flicking over, they're not driving that proton gradient and over time, as we age, as the header applies me of the mitochondria increases, which is essentially saying that the mitochondria gradually look less and less like mitochondria. They sort of lose their form and they become leaky, and I think there's a very good argument to be had that aging is a direct consequence of leaky mitochondria. Forget leaky gut. Leaky mitochondria is the big problem and I think the light story with mitochondria is fundamentally connected to that.

Cameron Borg: 1:10:04

But also mitochondria are filled with water and if you have a look I mean this is why I love Bob Fosbury's work so much. Have a look at the water absorption bands. You know you have all of these really high peaks of absorption in water in the infrared range, not so much in the near-infrared but beyond the near-infrared into the infrared. That's when you see, water is the primary chromophore of the body, it's the primary light absorber of the body and these long wavelengths, I suspect, are doing crazy things to the hydrogen bonding networks in water. They are creating coherent domains and changing the structure of water and making it do work essentially. I don't know if you've read Gerald Pollock's book Cells, gels and the Engines of Life.

Dr Max Gulhane: 1:10:54

No, I haven't read that one.

Cameron Borg: 1:10:56

So everyone talks about the fourth phase of water, which is a phenomenal book, but to me Cells, gels and the Engines of Life is the best. It's way better than the fourth phase of water because what it explains is how our bodies basically shift the structure of water from bulk water H2O to this crystalline water to actually do work. And there's great diagrams in there explaining how things like mitosis, the protein filaments that do the cytokinesis in mitosis are fundamentally driven by where the charge is on the water around the proteins themselves. So the body's ability to shift between bulk and structured water is super important because that's what's doing the work, that's what's creating these protein folding, because at every site of a protein it's completely surrounded by water and depending on what the charges on that water, depending on what the charges are around that protein molecule, it folds differently. And I think that's where a lot of people get a bit tripped up, in my view, with the whole water story is that they think everything needs to be structured all the time, and I think what it is is the body needs to be able to shift between different crystal and structures, different bond angles, and it goes back to May 1 Hoh's work, which is a little bit above my head when I was trying to go through her work because she's very hardcore and that book was very difficult to read. But I think the bond angles, the structure in the water itself and being able to shift between those two is actually what's more important than just having structured water. Structured water, structured water all the time.

Cameron Borg: 1:12:40

And I think what is shifting the water in the mitochondria and in the cytosol and all the way through the extracellular matrix and the ground substance is everything from the DC current that's running through the body to the electromagnetic fields that were exposed to the light that were exposed to, and I think that's shifting the water in the mitochondria and doing lots of different things that we would consider work done in the cell. I think a lot of it's done by the water's capacity to shift and do all of these different things. It's like a shape shifter and it's where it ends up, is dependent on all of these other environmental influences and that's really where I think life sort of coalesces is this interaction between water and light and that's what we see in the mitochondria. The mitochondria makes light, makes water and accepts light to do so, and maybe that's a bit oversimplified, but those are just some of the things that were running through my head. I don't often get the chance to ramble about mitochondria, but, yeah, you can see how passionate I am about them.

Dr Max Gulhane: 1:13:52

Yeah, it's a great description camera, and anyone who's followed my work and has listened to my Jack Crews series would hear what Jack said was very, very similar to what you've described. It's essentially the same idea, in said differently this idea that the life is. You know, the stage is water but the actors are light or vice versa. I can't remember which way he put it, but essentially they're so integrally linked that you, if you mess with the light signals, then, as you've mentioned, the destructuring water that is probably having all these incredibly complex effects on regulating our biological processes gets disrupted. And similarly, if you have things that are disrupting the water and Joe Pollock has shown things like glyphosate, the herbicide glyphosate disrupts that structuring and absence of infrared light from the sun is going to interfere with that. Anything that disrupts the mitochondrial function and prevents them from making water is also going to disrupt that, and then people get sick. So it's. It is really so fascinating because we're taking it down a level. We are analyzing and health on such a more fundamental level than you know what unique nutrients are in this organ meat Again, not saying that that's not important, but this is so much more fundamental.

Dr Max Gulhane: 1:15:21

It links and you mentioned Professor Robert Fosbury, and he is has been doing a lot of work on light, especially with regard to mitochondria and infrared light.

Dr Max Gulhane: 1:15:32

But Scott Zimmerman, who you mentioned as well is, is a very, very interesting researcher who is doing the same, talking about the same, similar things.

Dr Max Gulhane: 1:15:41

Both of those are have really shown us and emphasized how important infrared light is for melatonin production in the mitochondria, and this idea that it's there, the if you think about the mitochondria as an engine, the coolant is, that is, the melatonin which is mopping up all these reactive oxygen species that get generated as a function of the mitochondria is normal action, but the red light and the infrared light is like the lubrication and that's helping the ATP a spin. So when you, taking this all the way back to the beginning of the conversation, when you change the reality of our existence, which was outdoors the whole time during 12 hours of daylight, if you're on the equate root and if you put that person will put someone inside under an artificial blue LED, you are removing one of the most critical nutrient light nutrients, which I like to call it which is in for a light and and you know we can blame that on on on food, but it's so obviously a deficiency of of a nutrient that is non, it's a non visible. You know wavelength of electromagnetic radiation?

Cameron Borg: 1:16:57

Yeah, I mean I confess my love for Bob and Scott. I think they are just some of the most inspirational guys and you know they've kept in contact with me even though they, you know they didn't have to. But these are guys who have come completely out of their own fields, out of their own fields of expertise and, in my eyes, completely revolutionized the field. I mean I would probably consider Scott the melatonin expert in the world right now and this guy is, as humble as it gets, completely outside of his field. And same with Stephanie Senna. I mean she's a computer scientist, for goodness sake, and she's the leading she's really carrying the torch of with probably people like Kerry Gillum of Rachel Carson. You know I just finished reading Silent Spring. You know she'll go out and say go out and say talks.

Cameron Borg: 1:17:56

Yeah, like all of these guys have come way outside their field and they stress the importance of interdisciplinarity. You know, like I remember Bob speaking to me about him going, and he's an honorary professor with Glenn Jeffrey and he's lab at University College London. And you know Glenn, you know he's hustling with this idea of you know why does 670 nanometers work? You know why is 670 nanometer red light? Why does it seem to be so important? And Bob says, well, you know, that's the wavelength that plants photosynthesize at. And Glenn goes well, no, I didn't hurt that. And you know him explaining all of these phenomena. These for that only an astrophysicist would know help make sense of how the retina works. And then you know, bob, coming from an optics engineering point of view, having a look at the folds of the brain, saying, well, that's a light trap. Like I know that any day of the week that's a light trap. You know, that's designed to funnel near infrared light deep, deep, deep within the body. It's completely obvious. Now, a biologist is not going to pick up on that stuff. It's so, so important that, you know, we encourage people outside of their field to, you know, start thinking about these ideas, because the breakthroughs that those guys have had. And you know I feel super blessed that I sort of introduced them and now they're working together. I hope they publish a paper together so I can say I sort of played a role in that. But you know, these guys are doing incredible work. You know, and Glenn and Bob figured out how a reindeer's eyes work. You know, in the Arctic when the blue is so intense that it should basically completely fry the eye. They figured out why it doesn't. And only a combination of an astrophysicist and a professor of ophthalmology could have figured that out and the implications of the things that they are discovering. And this is not published. But Bob has said that they are looking into the idea that near infrared light is helping the mitochondria overcome kinetic barriers in generating that proton gradient.

Cameron Borg: 1:20:13

Now we have to remember that it is an evolutionary given that we are exposed to near infrared light all day long. It's a given. That's the bare minimum. So it stands to reason that our body would have said evolutionarily, our biology would have said well, that energy, that photonic energy, is there all day, so we might as well use it to make this kinetic reaction easier. And then, of course, as soon as you take it away, the mitochondrial function suffers immediately because what is a given is no longer there. And I think that's what's so scary when you think about it is that you know, even if we are outside all day, that's the bare minimum, that is reaching our evolutionary bare minimum. That's not like oh look at me, I'm so healthy. You've just reached, you know, a normal level. You haven't excelled, you know. That's just the reality of what we're supposed to be exposed to.

Cameron Borg: 1:21:11

And regardless of where you are on the planet, that near infrared is coming through rain, hail or shine.

Cameron Borg: 1:21:18

That's the beautiful thing about water is that it's not a strong absorber of near infrared like it is infrared.

Cameron Borg: 1:21:24

So all these clouds up above all the water in the atmosphere, the near infrared just funnels its way down and it hits the earth. It might go back up and come back down, but the near infrared is always there, no matter where you are. So even if you're like me and my skin can't tolerate a full summer's day outside, I will burn. It'll be a little bit too much for me, but I still need to be outside because I still need the near infrared. I don't have to be directly in the sun, but I need to be sitting in the shade absorbing all the near infrared, because that is the evolutionary given. That is the bare minimum. And I'll be the first to admit I don't reach that bare minimum because you know, fundamentally I live indoors, I work indoors, I'm outside as much as I can possibly be. But that's an important thing to remember is that that is a bare minimum. That is what our body expects, that is what the mitochondria expects to happen. Is this chronic exposure?

Dr Max Gulhane: 1:22:24

That's a great, great explanation, cameron.

Dr Max Gulhane: 1:22:25

And the problem that Scott is trying to solve, which I think is this next frontier, is how to get near infrared back into indoor environments, and his work with making bulbs that emit a near infrared band, a broad near infrared band, at the same time as being reasonably energy efficient to comply with this myopic government policy.

Dr Max Gulhane: 1:22:49

That is admirable and that's the problem that's going to need to be solved by multiple people, and I'm in discussion with some engineers to think about whether we can design things like a photo by modulation panel with multiple near infrared and red wavelengths to basically help people put it in indoor office environments for people who can't set up outside or can't set up in front of a window, to really get this infrared light back in.

Dr Max Gulhane: 1:23:19

But let's pivot and let's finish this conversation on the sun, because it is a topic of interest of both of us, and the reason why it's so important is because narratives from that are quite old but particularly emphasize in the past maybe 20, 30 years is that the sun is harmful, and I think the maybe the corporate entity behind that is the dermatology, the dermatology profession, and I'll say that because this episode will have aired after I've released my conversation with Professor Richard Weller and, before someone attacks me for attacking the dermatology profession, I'm not going to say anything that the esteemed Professor Weller hasn't already said, which is that the dermatologists have been misguided in terms of essentially recommending everyone stay inside a cave, to quote him and take vitamin D pills, based on the fact that not only do we need this infrared light for being outside, we actually also need UV, and we do need these balanced wavelengths of visible light to so.

Dr Max Gulhane: 1:24:33

So talk about your thoughts about the sun, about tanning and about, maybe, the narrative shift that has to change in order for us to get this critical light nutrient back into people's lives.

Cameron Borg: 1:24:49

Yeah, I'll just finish my thought from the previous question about melatonin. Sure, the reason melatonin is going up when you're exposed to long wavelength light, particularly in the near infrared, is because the mitochondria are working better, and when the mitochondria work better they're producing more reactive oxygens. That's just the byproduct of more efficient mitochondrial function. And melatonin, much like DHA, probably came around the same time about 600 million years ago, extraordinarily old and conserved. We know it's super important because it's been around for that long, incredible, probably the best antioxidant able to sap up reactive oxygen species better than most things. Because, unlike vitamin C, where it can take one free radical and then it itself becomes a free radical, the scobal radical, melatonin, the molecule that is made after it scavenges one, is also an antioxidant, and then it's the one that scavenges after that is also an antioxidant. So it is an extremely strong thing. But I think again, it's just a proxy marker for better mitochondrial function. I think that's what it's doing, and it's probably doing 500 other things at the same time. But fundamentally I think the reason it's going up is because the mitochondria just working better and that's to be expected, I suppose. I mean, we know that it works better with new infrared.

Cameron Borg: 1:26:18

But getting to this story and this is, you know, being Australians this really hits home. The narrative is extremely dangerous and it's killing people. That's just how it is the way. I don't even blame the dermatologists. To be honest, I think the reason we've got here is the same reason, the same story with Ricketts and Coddlyve Royal. We just we got too into the weeds that we lost, we lost the context, we zoomed in too far and we no longer realize what it is that we're looking at at all. We've lost the forest for the trees.

Cameron Borg: 1:27:00

And before I started the podcast, my first planned podcast was with a vitamin D researcher here in Australia and they declined to do the podcast. They said they'd speak with me but they didn't want to be recorded because they stated quite clearly that they can't be talking about this stuff because the people in the Cancer Council are very, very powerful in how grant money gets given out and they don't want to risk their reputation being done by saying, hey, you actually do need sunlight. And that was a big wake-up call for me, like wow, there are actually powers that be here that are pushing a narrative. There actually is a narrative and I understand why. I mean, if you're the head of the Cancer Council who's been saying any amount of sun is going to kill you for decades. Are you really going to turn around and say, hey, actually we got that completely wrong and we've probably caused thousands and thousands of deaths as a result of our messaging? Of course they're going to double down and say, no, of course we're right. And they'll have the same tagline there's nothing healthy about a tan, which is so non-scientific I can't even wrap my head around it.

Cameron Borg: 1:28:11

A toddler could tell you. Anyone who is pale your grandma says, oh, are you feeling okay? Are you sick? People who attend they say, wow, you're glowing. You look really healthy. I mean, forget about science. We know that tanning is a sign of health. I mean, that's just a toddler knows that. But really what's happened is scientism has got in the way of real science and for goodness sake, we use Murine models, we use mice to study this stuff. First of all, they're nocturnal and they're furry. Then their skin's not supposed to be exposed to sunlight, to narrow band UV lamps.

Cameron Borg: 1:28:55

To narrow band UV. And then they use solar simulators. I don't know if you've seen these solar simulators. I asked this vitamin D researcher. I said what's the spectrum on these things? It's about 10% UV. Nowhere on this planet do you get 10% UV. It's absolutely ridiculous. And of course they don't have the balancing long wave lengths to accompany them, because these are energy efficient lighting scenarios and they're in a cage. They're not grounded, they're surrounded by Wi-Fi. For goodness sake, you couldn't get further away from a model that is going to tell you anything about the real world. And then, to top that off, we know that all of those early Murine models were tainted by the fact that these mice had papilloma viruses that caused melanoma. The whole thing was tainted from the beginning, but no one ever knows that story that the original studies were tainted.

Cameron Borg: 1:29:55

And no one is talking about the fact that even sunburn increases your risk of living when you get melanoma. It's a predictor of better health outcomes, sunburn, which no one should be striving for. We know the biggest studies of their kind. The melanoma in southern Sweden cohort set out to find over 20 years ago why their whole thing was, find out why sunlight causes cancer, particularly melanoma. They found the exact opposite. The exact opposite. Massive cohort, over 20,000 people, and they found the exact opposite. Even the people who smoked lifelong, smokers that got the most sun exposure lived longer than the non-smokers who had the least sun exposure.

Cameron Borg: 1:30:47

This idea that we're calling sunlight and we can't say sunlight is carcinogenic. Uv light, man-made UV light, can be carcinogenic. Let's be very clear about that. If it's any time you take light outside of the balance of the natural environment, you're playing with fire, and that's why I'm not particularly a fan of UV tanning beds, because all you get is this narrow band. Uvb can be useful, sure, but you're running a risk and there's no translational capacity with the studies that have been done. And of course, here's the other thing it's considered unethical to have a study where you purposefully expose humans to sunlight. It's considered unethical because they think it's carcinogenic. So you can't get those studies where you say let's get a group of people tell them to live outside as much as possible and get another group of people to say keep doing what you're doing and then see the health outcomes. You can't do that because it's seen as unethical, it's beyond ridiculous. And I'm aware I sound quite passionate right now and that's because I've had family members who have died of melanoma.

Cameron Borg: 1:32:01

It's unacceptable that we're treating it the way, that we are saying that the sun causes it, when all of the evidence suggests that the story is not even remotely that simple. And we know that exposure, that the use of sunscreen, increases your risk of non-melanoma skin cancer because you're able to stay out in the sun longer than you should. You know, at Irithema the reddening of the skin is the sign. Hey, maybe you need to get into the shade right now. Right as Jack Crew says, lines and hippos know to go in the shade in the heat of the day. You know they don't need any science to tell them that and that's what our bodies are doing. When you get that reddening, you go out of the sun. It's very simple.

Cameron Borg: 1:32:42

But the use of sunscreens, even the use of artificial light, particularly at night, just because it's blue, it's right next to ultraviolet in the spectrum, is a really high-energy photons and they penetrate quite deep, which is why those visible wavelengths are what cause basal cell carcinoma. So when you're sitting in your office all day under fluorescent tube lighting, thinking, oh, I'm glad I'm not outside getting UV light, you know like you're not really understanding the fact that those visible wavelengths are really high-energy photons as well and they're penetrating really deep. And because they're not balanced by the red, the near infrared and the infrared, you know your mitochondria are fundamentally not liking that and I think it's quite clear that use of sunscreen increases risk of basal cell carcinoma because of that precise phenomena. You're blocking out the UV but you're allowing the high-energy visible photons to be interacting with your skin for so much longer than they should. You've uncoupled the system and I think as soon as we can get studies where the system is coupled and you get people exposed to sunlight naturally and not artificial light, then we can start to make inferences.

Cameron Borg: 1:34:04

But this idea that the sun is toxic or harmful for your health really has to be turned around, and I think that's probably my big mission with what I'm doing is to help people understand that light really matters and that sunlight is our birthright and being able to live. I mean, we all know it feels good. You know it's giving us, like Jack says, the complete compounding pharmacy. It's the whole thing. It has every wavelength in it that we need.

Cameron Borg: 1:34:45

And, yeah, it upsets me quite a bit to see this narrative, particularly when there is so much evidence to the contrary. There's so much evidence to the contrary, it's almost unbelievable and it's going to take a long time to turn the ship around, but I think young people are going to start to realize well, hang on, we've never lived more away from the influence of sun in our entire evolutionary past, yet we've never had more melanoma and non-melanoma skin cancer. I think that makes sense for me, because it doesn't make sense at all, and I'd love to speak to dermatologists. I mean, I sent you that article about the Australians of the year who pale as all get out, talking about why you should never go out in the sun because they're melanoma researchers. It's very upsetting that we bestow awards upon people like this who are, in my view and I suspect yours probably harming people with that advice. I will contain my diatribe to there because I could go on forever, because it's something I'm very passionate about and people really need to get a grasp on.

Dr Max Gulhane: 1:36:00

I share your passion because, in terms of what we're trying to convey with the health benefits of light, natural sunlight, the UV sun causes melanoma and avoid the sun because of those reasons is the biggest obstacle in terms of getting people out and into an environment which they can begin to reap these benefits of healthy sunlight. That's why I respect the work of Professor Weller with his UK Biobank study and Peli Lindquist with his melanoma and southern Sweden study, because those are large, longitudinal, population-based yes, observational studies, but they showed that unequivocally that the more sun someone gets, the more ultraviolet light someone gets, the lower their walk-alls mortality, the lower their cancer mortality, the lower their cardiovascular mortality. We're really trading off the melanoma researching apparatus and the anti-sun messaging narrative is really making a risk-versed benefit trade-off on behalf of the population that your cardiovascular mortality doesn't matter, your total cancer mortality doesn't matter. Instead, what we think matters is your prevention of melanoma. Yet they're not even correct on that for the reasons that you've just talked about. This is grand scale harm of people, because the fact of the matter is that more people are dying from cardiovascular disease, more people are dying from bowel cancer and breast cancer, lung cancer, then they're dying from melanoma, not to diminish the seriousness of that condition, but the advice around the primary prevention of melanoma is misguided. You can look at studies that show increased vitamin D is protective of prognosis in diagnosed melanoma, meaning that people that had the high vitamin D had less invasive tumors. They had less likely to metastasize.

Dr Max Gulhane: 1:38:12

If UV light makes vitamin D then, as you've pointed out, cameron, square that for us. Happy to talk to anyone who can square that circle for me. The reality is that melanoma, just like those other cancers, is a problem when the immune system is impaired from a low vitamin D level and low ambient low sunlight exposure. The paradoxical implication is that once you have a melanoma diagnosis, getting that vitamin D level up as soon as you can becomes your priority and connect two dots about how to get your vitamin D level up in the most healthy way.

Dr Max Gulhane: 1:38:52

This whole story has been butchered and people have been misguided. That's why I'm so excited to release my course about how to build a healthy and safe solar callus, because it's going to go in depth about all the nuances and the topics that we have a lot that we've mentioned on this podcast but also how to use it in the sun in an ancestrally appropriate manner. I'm not diminishing the fact that UV light yield and skin type is the main associated risk factor. We need to be careful and we need to be judicious, but there's so much more advice that people need in order to be able to harness this giant fusion reactor in the sky for the inarguable health benefits.

Cameron Borg: 1:39:43

It's like the advice we're given is like the worst trade deal ever. It's like you receive, you get increased risk of basically every single disease and you get protection from perhaps the skin cancers that don't metastasize. That's it. It's the worst trade deal ever. It's the worst thing you could possibly imagine, but just the way that it's messaged has become so ingrained and so powerful. I'm so glad you're talking about solocalis.

Cameron Borg: 1:40:20

Most people have no idea how well they can actually tan when they actually do the right things. It's so easy to switch that around. Some people burn instantly. It's quite remarkable when they're night owls. They stay up to all hours of the night. They eat the standard diet. They're doing all of the things that basically aren't helping their skin prepare to actually interact with the environment the way that it's meant to. You'd be surprised how even people with light skin can tolerate the sun, even here in Australia. It's remarkable how long you can actually be out there without getting the burn.

Cameron Borg: 1:41:06

As far as I'm aware, it's not even the skin type. It's actually hair colour matters more than skin colour with regard to risk of skin cancer. I found that to be absolutely fascinating. I should be doing a podcast soon with skin cancer researcher or retired skin cancer researcher, who goes over all of this stuff, about all the things we just spoke about how sunlight decreases your risk of skin cancers and decreases your mortality, if you do get one. And yeah, apparently she tells me hair colour is more important than skin colour, which I found to be fascinating because of the melanin story and obviously there are different types of melanin and you know, regrettably we didn't get to talk about how melanin is a semiconductor and what the implications of that are. But yeah, that might be a conversation for another day, but you know, all of this stuff goes so deep and it's so incredibly fascinating.

Dr Max Gulhane: 1:42:12

Yes, it is. And look, as Australians, I think we're uniquely placed to have this discussion because Queensland is the melanoma capital of the world. Australia has massive, disproportionate incidents of melanoma and New Zealand obviously as well. But the I can attest you know, in UK and two, having grown up in this country, that the way that people are using the sun is not respecting an ancestral, the ancestral niche that we've spent an hour and a half talking about, and that is the fact that when you go to the beach and no one has got as a kid, no one has got morning sun, no one has exposed their skin to red and infrared from natural full spectrum morning sunlight. And you know it's 10, 11 AM. The UV index is, you know, raging already. You lather on all this. You know UVA, uvb, blocking sunscreens, and you know you hop out in the sun and you play in the surf for four hours and that is how most people are using the sun. And you know eating a standard Australian diet with those non-edible food products you mentioned called seed oils.

Cameron Borg: 1:43:27

Yeah, I was going to say. Then, after the beach, you go and get deep fried fish and chips and go home and have a few beers and stay up in the watching the telly and in the LED lighting that you've got. You know it's a perfect storm you I couldn't have. I couldn't have made it better of myself if I was the devil. You know you couldn't do anything better than that.

Dr Max Gulhane: 1:43:44

So so part of this change is the education, and again I'm going to talk about this in depth in my course for those who are interested. But it involves us mimicking how we would have got ultraviolet light in our ancestral past, which is it was never. You never have the main without the entree, you never have ultraviolet without first having having red and infrared, and that reduces our theme. It increases the ability of the skin's, the skin layer, to tolerate ultraviolet light. It increases mitochondrial function and collagen production and stimulates healing. So not only by bookending ultraviolet exposure and getting it progressive, with UVA, then UVB, you're not only preparing the skin but you're also healing any kind of damage or burn that might have occurred during that sun exposure period. So, yes, it's, it's a big narrative and a big education effort.

Dr Max Gulhane: 1:44:43

But what is the goal? The goal is to stop people dying. The goal is to stop people getting cardiovascular disease and getting cancer diagnoses and not just myopically focusing on, you know, melanoma, skin cancer, when, as I said to Richard Weller, it's like focusing on the mouse when there's a, you know woolly mammoth in the room next to you, like, where's the proportionality here? And that is that's a job as a generalist is to be able to look at the total risk and the big picture of health and help to direct people's attention to the biggest, the biggest fish, the biggest woolly mammoth standing in the room.

Cameron Borg: 1:45:24

Yeah, yeah, absolutely yeah. I couldn't agree more. And you know, to me, I think, the goal, I set the goal, I set the bar even lower. I think if we can just turn the narrative around, you know, some people are not going to listen, even provided with the information. I think, as long as people are informed adequately and there isn't a nefarious narrative spreading ideas that are fundamentally wrong and dangerous, you know people will do with that what they need. And I just, I just think it's important that in the culture that we have here, it is acknowledged that sunlight is important and not toxic, not just a priori toxic. If we can get that far, I'll be, I'll be, you know, over the moon about just that, not even saving lives just yet, but you know that will come down the track.

Dr Max Gulhane: 1:46:20

Yeah, amazing. Well, cameron's been a fascinating conversation. Thanks for the discussion. We've covered a very, very wide range of topics and it's thoroughly enjoyable, so I will encourage everyone who's listening to check out Cameron's podcast, the Ricky Flow Nutrition Podcast, and his amazing previous episodes, a lot of whom I've interviewed as well. So, cameron, how can people connect with you, how can they find out what you're doing? And let us know any final parting thoughts that you have?

Cameron Borg: 1:46:57

Yeah, so I encourage people to start with the podcast. It's sort of my baby.

Cameron Borg: 1:47:02

It's not not nearly as popular as yours, but it's growing slowly and, yeah, I'm hoping this year I'm going to speak to a lot, of, a lot of very interesting people about the types of things that we spoke about today. I'm on social media Instagram is probably what I'm what I'm using most and I have a website that has, you know, some ideas about reading material and things like that and, yeah, that's probably the best place to to find me and to reach out. If you, if you need to contact me at all, but, yeah, probably just the podcast if you can. Yeah, if you can listen to that, that would be. That would be fantastic. Great, yeah, and I just want to say thank you for inviting me on. It's quite a pleasure to be on the interviewee side of things makes me feel very special.

Dr Max Gulhane: 1:47:55

Yeah, awesome mate, all right, we'll. We'll talk soon and yeah, thanks again. No worries.

Cameron Borg: 1:48:01

Thank you, Max.

Regenerative Health with Max Gulhane, MD

60. Keys to Optimal Health Beyond Diet – Sunlight, EMFs, and Ancestral Wisdom with Cameron Borg

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