61. Red Light Therapy & Photobiomodulation with Andrew LaTour

This is a comprehensive introduction to the exciting topic of photobiomodulation/red light therapy and a must listen for anyone looking to add light to their health optimisation toolbox. 

Andrew LaTour is an expert engineer and owner of GembaRed, a company producing high quality red light therapy devices. I have no financial affiliation with Gemba Red. I have enjoyed Andrews free education content and his dedication to transparecny of his operation.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 3:34

In this episode I'm speaking with expert engineer Andrew Latour of Gamber Red, a company producing high-quality red light therapy devices. I've got Andrew on to speak about the concepts and theory behind the growing field of photo biomodulation, which uses light wavelengths predominantly in the red and infrared regions to elicit healing responses in the body. There is growing scientific literature on the benefits of red light therapy for a very wide range of medical and health optimization indications. This interview serves as an in-depth and comprehensive introduction to red light therapy and photo biomodulation. I have no financial affiliation with Gamber Red and merely have enjoyed Andrew's free educational content that he's been putting out on his excellent YouTube channel and his dedication to transparency of his operation. So now on to the show. Okay, I'm sitting down with Andrew Latour of Gamber Red photo biomodulation device company. Andrew, thanks for coming on the podcast.

Speaker 2: 4:44

Hi Max, thanks for having me.

Speaker 1: 4:46

Let's start with your professional background, because you're an engineer and you are making some very interesting photo biomodulation devices and also educating about photo biomodulation and red light therapy, which I think is very important.

Speaker 2: 5:01

Yeah, yeah, my background's in chemical engineering. I got a degree at University of Connecticut and did well in school and worked in industry for about 10 years and I learned a lot in industry about running a business making products very efficient, making them very effective, focusing on safety for not only your employees that build the products but for the end consumer make sure you're delivering what the consumer wants and needs. And very stringent quality control of getting things measured properly, getting things scientifically validated. I really have in that quality control aspect and that's what I think I've brought to my products and my brand of red light therapy of really sticking to the science, sticking to the evidence, just making products that deliver the right wavelengths, intensity, all that stuff we'll get into and getting it scientifically validated, getting it measured accurately. So I've got all these kind of soft skills that I learned from industry and from my schooling that helps me really digest the science and do things in a very practical and evidence-based way.

Speaker 1: 6:13

Yeah, and that was one reason why I wanted to talk to you, because your YouTube videos are extremely evidence-based and you reference a lot of the literature and make it quite easy to understand, so that's a fantastic thing. How did you get involved in photo by modulation, having come from a more of a chemical engineering background?

Speaker 2: 6:34

Yeah, yeah, I struggled with my health for most of my life. As a young kid I had a lot of problems that started with a vaccine injury, actually, and immune system problems and constant bombardment with antibiotics and chronic sinus issues and then getting weight problems, obesity, sleep problems and all this stuff and I never really thought about taking control of my health until my mid-20s and I started to learn some of the alternative wellness stuff got into biohacking, got into low-carb, keto bulletproof, following all the podcasts, going to some of the biohacking conferences and just naturally being interested in technology and trying to scientifically validate all the stuff I was doing. That's what really drew me to biohacking of like, hey, you can take control of your health, you can back it up with evidence and use your own body as that. N equals one kind of sample size of testing things out, seeing what works for you, what doesn't work for you put aside. And that's what kind of introduced me to the red light therapy and a lot of it started with trying to address my sleep problems, which started with getting more sunlight, getting outside, doing walks outside, simple things, wearing blue blockers at night and just trying to tackle my sleep problem. That seemed to be one of my core issues to getting my weight under control and getting hormones and energy levels right, and that kind of naturally went into certain light therapies trying out foreign for red and the incandescent heat lamps, especially for my low back pain and eventually I learned about these red LED panels and red light therapy stuff.

Speaker 2: 8:16

That was just starting to get a lot of hype around like 2017. And I was digging into that, diving into it and just kept going down and down this rabbit hole and then found some of the manufacturers. I was living in China for a while, so I met with a manufacturer and we worked together on designing a product, getting it built, and I just took the plunge of like, okay, I'm going to try to be an entrepreneur and release this to the public. You can't even imagine. But back in 2018, 2017, when I was developing the product, there weren't a lot of options for red light therapy panels. There was maybe only three or four major companies that were doing it at the time. So I became kind of like one of the early adopters of launching this product.

Speaker 2: 9:03

I've been under the radar, maybe you just. Maybe you even recently heard about me, but I've been around for a while and it just started very grassroots of like, hey, I've got this panel, I designed it right, it's got some of the right wavelengths and we got a third-party test Before I sold a single panel. We got a third-party test, we're completely transparent, with the proper intensity and working with the biohackers that really wanted this and reducing the flicker, reducing the EMFs and really getting into that. And it's been a big benefit to my own health, like I said, for back pain, knee aches and sleep and overall recovery. And it's been really cool to be able to share some of my research into the science and it started out with a lot of blogs and much more articulate when I can write and type it out and fix a draft. But yeah, I'm trying to do more content into YouTube and more audiovisual stuff too.

Speaker 1: 10:04

Yeah, great, let's dive into the science behind photobiomodulation and give the listeners because a lot of my listeners might have seen about these red light therapy devices, these photobiomodulation panels, but I really want this to be an episode that they can listen to, to kind of start at the beginning and walk through the foundational concepts. So talk to us about this whole scientific and therapeutic field of photobiomodulation. How did it start and, I guess, what are these fundamentals that is built on?

Speaker 2: 10:37

Yeah, yeah, using light for health is necessarily a new thing. Maybe the Romans kind of were playing around with it and one of the big turning points was Niels Ryberg-Finzen In 1903, he got the Nobel Prize for his work on light therapies for tuberculosis and for small pox and for smallpox patients. Even into the Middle Ages they were using red curtains on the windows and they were wrapping them up in red blankets and it didn't seem like it was a red light therapy but it was more of the reds were kind of blocking out some of the UVs and blues that were exacerbating smallpox. But so it's been around for a long time. And even around that time and even around that time in 1903, up until like the 1920s and 30s, there was all these heliotherapy clinics that were starting for tuberculosis patients. And then it kind of went downhill after penicillin was was invented and antibiotics and all this stuff. That's obviously amazing for humanity, but it kind of cemented some of the complexes that demonized light therapies of of, you know, trying to use it. So we kind of had a dark age from like the 1930s until like even up until the 1980s. But around 1960, you know, the first lasers were invented, the ruby laser, which was a red laser that was based on a ruby crystal. That was first invented and then, shortly after, they started experimenting with these lasers on rats and mice and people. And Andre Mester in Hungary was one of the first ones to do this research of using lasers on mice and he was actually accidentally found it because he used a lower power laser that he didn't realize it was a low powered laser on these mice and some sort of cancer treatment and he found the mice he would treat it with this low powered laser. Their wounds healed faster, their hair grow a little faster and that's what really got him interested in in this what he called laser bio stimulation. So that that's what really coined you know some of these terms and got started with the.

Speaker 2: 12:49

The technology and the therapy called low level laser therapy as an important distinction from high intensity lasers that you can burn stuff and heat stuff up and cut. You know you can use surgical lasers for cutting and ablating and coagulation, but specifically the low intensity lasers got that name because they don't cause significant heat. You know, sometimes I call them soft lasers and cold lasers just to remind people that we're not doing a heat therapy, it's a non thermal kind of therapy, and so you know that. You know that research is, you know, kind of slowly accumulated over over the years, starting from the 60s. You know, got a lot of traction in the 1990s with when NASA did some experiments with red LEDs and that was the first time LEDs were even kind of the technology was ready to be powerful enough to deliver this as a light therapy.

Speaker 2: 13:41

Before that Most LEDs were just uses, cheap little indicator lights on alarm clocks, and you know your TV remote control has that little near infrared LED that controls your, your channels. So that's how, you know NASA got into it and they they used it for, you know, versus grow lights and then you know, for like wound healing and the mitochondrial stimulation for astronauts. And so that's what kind of made the LEDs become more accessible and you know they were more powerful and obviously cheaper. They're much safer. There's no, you know, fda regulations like there are for lasers, you know, and the eye, you know, causing eye damage. So that's what kind of really enabled you know what we see today of all these LED panels on the market. They're very safe for home use, they're very easy for a consumer to use and you know there's tons of tons of studies.

Speaker 2: 14:34

You know there's Tina Karoo, which I think was also she's been in Russia is one of the biggest researchers and her research group found the mitochondrial kind of action spectra for these red and near infrared wavelengths. So that helped put a mechanism to. You know what we're doing with red light therapy of, like you know, we've got the cytochrome c-oxidase in the electron transport chain on the mitochondria. That's, you know, the fourth step in the process. But they found, because it's got iron and copper centers that can absorb these red and near infrared wavelengths. That's what gets stimulated and helps with the mitochondrial kind of process of building ATP and producing, you know, some beneficial ROS and some of the signaling, like the nitric oxide release.

Speaker 2: 15:25

And so you know that's one of the things I was reading, one of Becker's books that, like you know, we've been really hardcore on the chemistry of biology and everything's like got a chemical component to it and so in order for red light therapy to become kind of justified in the mainstream, we needed a chemical mechanism for this to be believable in kind of the western hemisphere, you know. So that was a huge kind of turning point that hey, now we have a mechanism that might not be the best mechanism. It's definitely not the only mechanism which we can talk about. But you know that's also what builds hey, we need a mechanism. You know any kind of drug or medicine. You need to say, hey, we've got a mechanism for how this works. So you know, this is how we justify it. It can't just be some black magic that you shine some light on you and you magically get healed. Nobody's going to buy. You know you can't sell that. So we've got some mechanisms now. But you know we have the empirical data that there's. You know more and more studies. You know randomized, placebo controlled studies.

Speaker 2: 16:33

I just went over one on my YouTube for full body red light therapy, for Fiber Myalgia, you know. But it's studied for athletic performance. It's studied for skincare, studied for, you know, the brain health stuff is going to be really important, the eye health stuff. So it's really remarkable and because it works on a fundamental level on our mitochondria and we've got mitochondria in all our cells and all our organs and we've already kind of correlated. That mitochondrial dysfunction is kind of the root cause of a lot of our kind of chronic age related conditions and diseases that we don't. You know, a lot of them don't even have any kind of cure. We can only manage the symptoms. But red light therapy works more at that fundamental level, as you know. Possibly, if we use the right, it could be more of a preventative as well, of making sure our mitochondria are working right, you know, if I'm using it as a relatively young, healthy person, but I want to keep my mitochondria, you know, balanced and healthy. That that could help, you know, improve longevity and quality of life.

Speaker 1: 17:37

Yeah, I love it. And what you said just then about mitochondria being at the mitochondrial dysfunction being at the root of chronic disease, that statement is so important, so relevant, and 99% of MDs and other doctors might have some notion but have no formed belief that that is what is actually going on. Yet you you're an engineer, you're a practitioner, you're someone who manufactures these devices, you're someone like you were so far ahead of where we are collectively in centralized medicine right now. So thank you for really emphasizing that point and I think that is so important and I always like to come back to it in my podcast, because and that is, if we can improve mitochondrial function and and obviously there's a range of ways to do that, from fasting, ketogenic diets and light is a key, key aspect to that, which is what we're trying to do here with photobiomodulation. So talk to the natural wavelengths of sunlight, talk to what we have ancestrally in terms of the terrestrial electromagnetic, electromagnetic radiation spectrum and what parts of that sunlight are, being honest in this field of photobiomodulation.

Speaker 2: 18:55

Yeah, yeah, so you know, sunlight gives us kind of that full spectrum, you know, quote unquote of, however we want to define it, but it's this range of, you know, electromagnetism, so it's all kind of connected on this electromagnetic frequencies and scales. You know, usually we've ranged, you know this, this kind of optical wavelength range from like 100 nanometers up to like a million nanometers, and you're starting with the UVs, you know the shorter wavelengths of ultraviolet, then you get the blues, then you get the greens, the yellows, reds, you know, and then once you get past red, you know we can't see it anymore. So we can only see a small portion of the, you know, visual, you know what we call the visible spectrum, but it's only a small portion of the electromagnetic spectrum that even the sun emits. And so once you get past red, you get the invisible, the near infrared, the mid-infrareds and foreign reds, and so we break up those, especially infrared, into those ranges, because it's, you know, such a wide range from, you know, from, I think, 760 nanometers up to, like I said, a million nanometers. So we have to kind of break it up into chunks and that's more of a physicist's kind of definition for those different wavelength ranges. But, like you know, then we define this optical window for human skin, this optical window for human biology that we found very important in the photobiomodulation and the low-level laser literature.

Speaker 2: 20:27

So what makes these wavelengths so special is the red and near infrared range, usually defined from like 600 nanometers up to 1100 nanometers. This is kind of the optimal optical window that penetrates into our skin deeper than any other wavelengths on the spectrum. So the UVs, the blues, the greens, the yellows, they all get superficially absorbed by melanin and by the blood and you know, in the superficial blood. So they don't penetrate very deep. Same thing when you get into mid-infrared and foreign for it, they don't penetrate very deep because they get absorbed, as you know, mostly heat, into the water of our, of our cell, you know of superficial layers of our cells. So only the red and near infrared light has that penetration profile. That is one kind of the first step of making it so special that if it can penetrate deeply into the skin and maybe reach some organs, reach some bone, reach, you know, muscles and all these other tissues that are higher in mitochondrial counts, then that might be a good thing. Maybe we can deliver that energy into those tissues and give them a little boost.

Speaker 2: 21:36

The other aspect of, you know, photochemistry and of photobiology is that it needs to be absorbed into something and that something has to do with something right. So we have these pigments, these chromophores, which is, you know, kind of a fancy word for you know just a kind of a pigment or something with some sort of color that absorbs certain wavelengths. So we have these chromophores in our cells that are responsive to certain types of light wavelengths and spectra. So, like I said, with the cytochrome c-oxidase that has some peak absorptions in the reds, you know, around 625, another one, I think, around 670, and then in the near infrared, around 760 and 825. So there's a couple different action spectra. So that's why we focus on those ranges. When you see products, usually we have some in those red ranges and then some in the near infrared ranges, around the low eight hundredths, because those get good penetration and they activate those mitochondrial mechanisms. So that's what kind of defines. You know the red and your infrared and you know if you look at the spectrum of sunlight, a big portion of sunlight is that red and your infrared range, you know, sometimes when I calculate it, it's anywhere from like 40 to 55 percent of you know sunlight is in that range of, you know, 600 to 1,100. So you know, if we think about how you know, all biology kind of evolved under sunlight and relied on sunlight for certain types of energy. And we know how the plant kingdom, you know, heavily relies on sunlight in terms of photosynthesis, that the mitochondria actually, you know were found, that maybe that was like a prehistoric bacteria and that joined in with the animal kingdom, with the animal cells and the mitochondria have these mechanisms for utilizing sunlight for energy as kind of a parallel path of the chloroplast and the chlorophyll with the animal kingdom. So you know we've had this.

Speaker 2: 23:36

You know all the simple animals like the lizards and the cold blooded animals. They're heavily relying on sunlight. They can't be active as much at night because they're cold blooded. They rely on some of that light and heat from sunlight. During the day for them to be active they have to lay out on rocks and we have to give them heat lamps if we want to keep them as pets. But because they're, they don't get enough energy from, you know, their own metabolism and from their own diet. They rely more heavily on sunlight, which has to do with having less mitochondria and having less stimulation and they can only operate with that.

Speaker 2: 24:13

And so we kind of, you know, are above them because we can operate pretty well without much sunlight. We can operate at night. You know a lot of mammals are nocturnal and that was a good survival instinct for you know, avoiding the big reptiles, the dinosaurs. And you know, eventually we became, you know, more dominant, that you know, especially when you know we had ice ages and we were able to survive through having less sunlight. But you know, it kind of gets to a point of now we're living an indoor lifestyle that's subtracted a lot of sunlight and subtracted, having fireplaces, and subtracted incandescent bulbs due to bands and things like that. Now we're living in an environment that you know we don't get much sunlight, we don't get these red, these deep reds and nearing freds, and that might be a correlation to a lot of the mitochondrial dysfunction that we're seeing today.

Speaker 1: 25:07

Yeah, great summary. Andrew and the previous listeners of my podcast will know that I've talked about this at length with Scott Zimmerman, who's also an engineer, and I really encourage anyone who hasn't to go back and actually listen to those episodes. But he has also, in his own way, recognized the massive importance of near infrared light for human biology. And the fact is that we essentially evolved as near infrared photon collectors, and that is a range of functions to do with our amnodic fluid, our cerebrospinal fluid, that our bodies essentially evolve to concentrate these photons and having this antioxidant effect through the promotion of the production of melatonin locally in the cells. The way I think about it and I like to communicate the importance of near infrared light to people, is that it's essential. It's a key nutrient, light nutrient factor. So imagine if we were eating a, you had this plate of food and suddenly you take half of those key nutrients away and that is the equivalent of living indoors under isolated LED. Blue light, blue wavelength lighting is you've removed because you're not getting that infrared from the sun and, as you mentioned, we're no longer getting any infrared that we would have gotten from incandescent light. And, yes, that was a problem because we were lighting up the night for the first time after the development of the light bulb, but at least that was giving us a little bit of this critical light nutrient. But since, I believe, was it maybe 2017, when the governments have brought in all this legislation in the name of power saving, they unwittingly are kind of depriving everyone of near infrared light, which is it's the epitome of unintended consequences, because you've got a bunch of bureaucrats who are listening to some people who are saying we have to cut our energy usage and they're like, okay, we can, we don't need this. All this infrared that's being emitted from halogen and incandescent and unwittingly probably contributing massively to, as you said, mitochondrial diseases, from cancer to autoimmune disease, to metabolic disease, neurodegeneration and aging, just to name a few.

Speaker 1: 27:22

The other point I want to make is the biology has a range of levels that it's actually absorbing and using light, and you made mention of the iron and heme, the heme and the copper centers in the various mitochondrial electron transport chain complexes. But there's also I like to think about it it's happening at multiple levels, because we've also got things like the non visual photoreceptors and the actual chromophores inside those non visual photoreceptors, like melanopsin, and then we've got functions, other molecules inside the body, things like the HA, things like melanin, things like even vitamin B12 is actually absorbs light and is having a bioactive role. So, thanks to that summary, that is a really good and really good summary. Now, just to break it down even further, can you compare and contrast red versus near infrared in terms of those specific benefits? And you had a really good image on your Instagram where you've explained that.

Speaker 2: 28:26

Yeah, yeah, and you know red, you know it's the visual light and visible and still visible. You know you can get some deep red. Sometimes they look a little bit more orange but then the near infrared are invisible. So sometimes with LEDs they don't emit any visible light. So you know it's kind of a blank bulb and sometimes people will email me and say, oh, all these bulbs aren't working, but it's the invisible near infrared that's just beyond our spectrum of what we can see. But you know they're, you know they're relatively close on the spectrum and they're within these, these kind of optical ranges and sometimes, like one of the the art interviews that Dr Hamplin had I think it was with Dr McCullough was he said you know, if you got the reds and the near infrared, they have kind of in the long run very similar benefits of up regulating mitochondrial function and we don't have to worry too much about like targeting certain, you know, peaks of action spectra and targeting certain things. They they both improve and to be very effective.

Speaker 2: 29:27

With the red wavelengths they do get absorbed a little bit more superficially and the near infrared penetrate a little bit deeper. So the red sometimes get get more preferably used for skincare, superficial stuff, superficial wounds, because you know, maybe they only penetrate a couple millimeters. Some studies say even the red can reach 40 to 50 millimeters, depending on the intensity and how you do it. And near infrared is very similar. Usually near infrared can have up to like twice as much penetration as the red. So it can again could go up to about 50 millimeters.

Speaker 2: 29:59

And you know it gets absorbed kind of exponentially as it passes through the skin and through the tissue. So only a small percentage actually reaches that. You know, if we say 50 millimeters, which is about what, like two inches or whatever, only a small percentage actually reaches those, those deeper depths. So it's not like it all magically kind of appears at the bottom. It still has to pass through and it's getting absorbed all the way through, you know. And small percentages do get picked up by water or blood or whatever it is. But that's a big part of you know. Are you targeting? If you're targeting brain health or muscles or bones, then you would prefer the near infrared.

Speaker 1: 30:37

And can you talk to the difference between narrow band versus a broad band emission? Because I think it's. It's relevant, obviously, for the sun, but it's also relevant for the difference between therapeutic ice, you know, leds with certain maybe, wavelengths, versus those more incandescent, like laps that we're using.

Speaker 2: 30:58

Yeah, yeah, and I will say, you know, with a lot of studies, whenever they combine. You know a lot of the studies started out with single wavelength lasers and then we got into single wavelength LEDs and stuff. But whenever they start to combine you know red and near and Fred and there's much more studies now where they combine red and near and Fred it works better, it works synergistically. So it doesn't matter if you're doing skincare, seems to be work better if you're doing both red and near and Fred. Or if you're doing deep penetration, if you're doing brain health or whatever, it is, both combining red and near and Fred seems to work better than doing them in isolation. So, and that might lead into your point of doing more of a broadband kind of approach that kind of covers a range of wavelengths, maybe covers different action spectra, and so you know you've got these incandescent bulbs that you know were used by a Finsen and Kellogg and you know there's not a lot of studies that use incandescent bulbs from what I can see therapeutically, because one of the things is that photobiomodulation is a non-thermal light therapy, so it's very specific, and so they excluded any kind of incandescent heat lamp or any kind of incandescent source unless it's like filtered and doesn't emit heat. So sometimes they use broadband sources for photobiomodulation, but it's kind of rare because it's kind of restricted how they can even use it. But you know, there might be merits of that. On the contrary, like one of the textbooks I have on light therapy, they kind of say like whatever you can do, that like is the opposite of sunlight, of like. You know, lasers are truly monochromatic, meaning they kind of have, you know, one wavelength. If you say a laser is 633 nanometers, because of the nature of the material they use the helium, neon, laser or whatever diode you use, and so you can only produce specific wavelengths. So sometimes you keep seeing the same wavelengths over and over, just because that's what the technology has designed. So we're kind of limited. You know we can't just say, oh, I need a 622 laser. You know that might not exist, but it's hard to adjust the wavelength on some of these lasers. So they're truly monochromatic. Leds are called quasi monochromatic, which means quasi, just means like nah. So it's not monochromatic. They've got a peak wavelength, like we could say 633 or 630. And then they've got a plus or minus of a spectrum. You know 15, you know 20 nanometers on either side. That's kind of a little bit of a broader spectrum than in laser. So there's even, you know, a lot of debate in the industry of like, oh, our laser is better, or LEDs are better at, you know, stimulating certain things, or if you really need a specific single wavelength, then the laser would be better, you know. So you get a little bit broader with LEDs and then obviously with incandescence they follow the Planck's laws, the black body irradiation laws, which I think maybe Scott mentioned.

Speaker 2: 34:00

But any object that's above, you know, zero Kelvin, above, you know, absolute freezing, is emitting infrared. So all objects are bodies. You know, if I have an infrared camera, my body will be. You know, lighting up with infrared that it's emitting infrared. So all objects are emitting some infrared.

Speaker 2: 34:20

The hotter you get, the more kind of shorter wavelengths you get, and you keep getting hotter and hotter and that's why you get like a 2700 Kelvin filament and that's producing a lot of, you know, the visual spectrum and that's why incandescent works. And then you get sunlight which is, you know, burning around 5500 Kelvin and that's why you get the. You know the spectrum of sunlight is, you know, I think it's kind of centered around, you know, the green to the red range, of getting that peak, but then it kind of tapers off and it's got this broad spectrum. So, and then the sunlight is also filtered by our atmosphere and that's big point too, of like the water in the atmosphere is filtering out a lot of the heat wavelengths that we would experience as heat. So when you use an incandescent heat lamp that's not filtered by water or atmosphere, so you get a lot more heat from incandescent bulb. Or you know the red heat lamps with the red coating, because they're emitting wavelengths that would normally be filtered by the atmosphere. And there's even some studies that show those wavelengths that get filtered by the atmosphere. Those are non native wavelengths the 750, which gets filtered by oxygen in the atmosphere. In the 950, they found specifically have inhibitory photobiomodulation effects. That again, if you, if you just use an incandescent bulb, that could have some inhibitory wavelengths in it as well.

Speaker 2: 35:50

So the nice thing with LEDs and maybe lasers, we can select, you know, the wavelengths that are. Just, we want to be stimulatory or have certain benefits. So whenever we design, you know, an LED panel, we might skip over the 850, the 750s, will skip over the mid 700s and we'll skip over, you know, probably the 900s, even though some studies use 900 nanometer, nanometer lasers. So you can kind of debate it both sides of the way of like which one's more therapeutic, which one mimics sunlight more or less, and sometimes things that don't mimic sunlight have a stronger hormetic kind of stress response that you could use therapeutically, like if we have unnatural pulse electromagnetic frequencies.

Speaker 2: 36:36

You know some of these PMF devices. They kind of work on that hormesis thing of creating a small stress response but can produce some sort of healing. So some of the studies say, oh, you know, if it's less like sunlight it's more stimulatory, but it has a stronger kind of double edge stored that you can be more inhibitory of something that's not natural with incandescent lighting and it's very hard to overdose because it's a little bit more of a natural thing. So you can enjoy it for longer periods of time and you know kind of kind of get that balance of wavelengths and benefits.

Speaker 1: 37:11

Yeah, great, great answer. And that's very interesting to me, the fact that there are numbers or regions of that net of electromagnetic spectrum that contain essentially non native 750 or what they're about, and that would have inhibitory effects on mitochondrial function. And it just goes to show how fraught it is to necessarily replace the whole nuances of the sunlight spectrum. And the fact is, yeah, the sun has done it the best and but, yeah, thanks, that's very, very interesting.

Speaker 1: 37:44

It gets to a point that I have I thinking more and more about, which is why is it that isolated blue wavelength and we know this for a fact is so harmful to our biology on so many different levels? And yet the debt we're getting, we essentially using and harnessing isolated red and near infrared. What are your thoughts on why? There is a disconnect here between the inherent harm of isolated blue and and I'll make the point that it's not to do with the LED emission, and LED is just light technology that has allowed us to harness different light wavelengths. It's not necessarily to the LED, is to do with the specific wavelength of light emitted.

Speaker 2: 38:30

Right, and with the LED technology, it was interesting how it got developed. Was you know, in a various stadium or whatever that science channel, they just went over a big how the other blue LED was designed. It was very hard to produce the blue wavelengths as being like a shorter wavelength. The first LEDs that were invented were actually near infrared and red, and the blue LEDs only came later, and so a lot of yeah, I get a lot of pushback of like oh, leds are inherently bad because they always emit blue light, which, like, is just not the case. So LEDs, they emit a specific wavelength based on the semiconductor, the diode that you use. So you can only get specific wavelengths out of different types of diodes and that's why we have different isolated wavelengths from different types of LEDs. But what they did was once they developed the blue LED and they made it highly efficient, then they put a, a phosphor over the blue LEDs that made more of a broad spectrum. So that's why we get white light bulbs from blue LEDs. So the blue, the white LEDs are based on a blue diode and then they have a phosphor that creates the rest of the spectrum. You know some of the greens and some of the reds to give us the optical illusion of being, you know, a white light bulb. Basically, when you combine red, green and blue you basically get white. So we can kind of create that and then we can create different color temperatures, that what they call of you know, color corrected temperatures. Of you know more or less warmer red, warmer white lights versus, you know, the cooler white lights that you know run at a higher, that look like a higher incandescent temperature.

Speaker 2: 40:13

So once you get, you get these peaks of blue from you know artificial blue, you know LED bulbs and you know, just in general, we can use blue LEDs therapeutically, just the pure blue. But you know they are found that blue light is that shorter wavelength that's got a higher. You know electron volts per. You know photo time and so it's much more reactive, you know, because it's right next to ultraviolet, which we know is this has highly photochemical responses, and so that's where you really have to. Either balance it out, you know, with some of the more you know stimulatory healing wavelengths like the reds and the near infrared, or you need to do blue and UV and very short, smaller doses. So you can use blue light therapeutically. Sometimes they use it in dermatology, like for killing acne, you know, and, but we can appreciate it's killing something on our skin and so it's a small dose.

Speaker 2: 41:10

Blue light, you know, like you said, it can even just the signals to our eye, you know, messes up our melatonin production. It keeps us awake at night. You know it's bad for kind of our overall sleep. But we do need blue light during the day to wake us up, to shut off the melatonin production in the morning and, you know, have our circadian rhythms correct. But the photo bio modulation of blue light is that it's very easy to get an inhibitory dose on your cells, on your mitochondria, either from the photochemical reactions or just how highly reacted it is. So even the dermatology studies, they seem. You know it's much safer to combine, you know, blue and red LEDs or blue and red and near infrared with with that if you really need the blue for some sort of therapeutic.

Speaker 2: 41:56

Yeah, you know, with the biphasic dose response is kind of a fancy way of talking about. You know that too much of anything is a bad thing. So we like red light therapy. It's good for our cells, good for our mitochondria, but there's always kind of this inverted U shape that you get from Hormesis, the Hormetic Curve. Sometimes it's called the Arnold Schultz law but it's just this concept that you can overdose on red light therapy. The good thing with red light therapy most of the time when we say overdose it just means a kind of a lack of benefits. So you know red light therapy is extremely safe. You know we can talk about that. You know as long as you don't use excessive intensities that cause a lot of heating. You know burning and you know just really if you really get too high of a dose with red light therapy you can cause apoptosis. So you know, in the cells and signal kind of cell death. But with red light therapy we want to stay in that lower dose and lower intensity range for that stimulatory response that helps upregulate. You know the cell proliferation, the healing, the anti inflammatory mechanisms. You know all those great mechanisms come from lower doses.

Speaker 2: 43:04

So a lot of people you know you might assume things. You might assume you want longer doses. You know bigger doses, you want to do it really frequently. But that's been shown. You know in a lot of the studies and in the science that you know more isn't better and that a lot of times less is more. You know less is better. So if you can kind of do it, you know, and you know I publish a lot of the dosing ranges and intensity ranges on my Instagram and on blogs and things like that that you know you want to stay within a certain range.

Speaker 2: 43:35

So they find like anywhere from two to 10 joules per centimeter squared. That's your energy delivery. That's kind of the sweet spot for getting a stimulatory response in most types of cells. But it gets really complicated because if you've got thick skin and you're trying to reach a tissue that's deeper in, maybe you need a higher dose to get enough energy to those deeper tissues. So sometimes the doses can go up to, you know, say, 50 or 60 joules per centimeter squared where where you maybe you're doing a lot on the skin but you might get some of that energy deeper in. So you know there's a lot of these parameters.

Speaker 2: 44:12

But in general you know it's not about like really doing big doses and trying to get kind of a short term result. It's more about, you know, being consistent with it, using low doses over a period of time, doing it, at least you know, two or three times a week, you know, if you want to do it every day of the week you might want to reduce, you know that dosing, but Overall, yeah, it's one of those things that more isn't better and it's been kind of a thing I've had to talk about a lot because you know the marketing is just there that you need really high intensities, you need really high doses and you know maybe that feels really good in the short term. But I think you know you don't want to miss out on some of those longer term kind of Stimulatory responses that then you know doing red light therapy responsibly and in moderation will get you those those better long term results. Yeah, you know and just a disclaimer, you know I can't make medical claims or give medical advice, but just in general you know it's been studied for just almost unbelievable range of benefits and diseases and indications.

Speaker 2: 45:17

You know, starting back with, you know things like wound healing. You know that's been very apparent for a long time. Then you know using using these doses can improve wound healing and even like very importantly of like certain like diabetic wounds and things like that that's becoming more prevalent. So you know it's wounds that are very hard to heal that once you know in the conventional treatments aren't working, that they can use red light therapy for those, you know, just general inflammation and flamed areas, areas of pain. It's good for pain and pain management and that's, you know. An interesting point that we know that by phase of curve works is that they use higher doses to inhibit nerve cells, to create temporary anesthesia, to temporarily block pain receptors. So it's, they purposely use the inhibitory response of higher doses and sometimes higher intensities to blocks or nerve signals.

Speaker 2: 46:13

So but for red light therapy, and you know, but that's more of a temporary pain relief if you really got some sort of big issue and or you know, I think one researcher did it on his tooth instead of using a numbing agent. But you know, you kind of sacrificed the longer term healing. So you still get pain reduction and inflammation reduction from using proper low doses, but you have to do it consistently over time for that long term, you know, more of a healing response. So that's, that's the key. So, but anyway, so pain, you know, inflammation, all those, all those things. But it gets into athletic recovery, getting circulation, getting more nitric oxide production, getting more ATP to the muscles. So it's used kind of both ways you could use it before an athletic event or after an athletic event for brain health, like it's just going to be huge is going to be amazing that they've used it for Parkinson's, for Alzheimer's, for TBI, for you know, mood disorders, depression, traumatic kind of situations and it, you know those are all going to be a huge area. You know you start to see the helmet units and units that that you treat, you know, your head or parts of your skull. You know in a lot of studies you can do it pretty simply just by targeting your foreheads, targeting your temples, so you can get, you know, a lot of benefits just by doing it on the face and doing it on the forehead. So the brain health stuff is going to be huge.

Speaker 2: 47:41

The eye health, you know research is going to be huge and you know, with eye health first, you know you want to subtract Maybe it's the artificial blue light from your environment, but it, you know, with eye health, a couple studies have gone viral of just doing three minutes of red light therapy in the mornings. It seems to work best when you do it in the morning of getting some low intensity red light in the eyes can help with. You know it helped with. You know that's what study is. So that's what study specifically was more kind of like color definition and just kind of some general visual clarity. But you know it's going to be a big research topic because our eyes have a lot of mitochondria. They rely on these photoreceptors and proper health and oxygen oxygenation. So you know the eye health is going to be huge skin health. So we've already, you know, a big area of cosmetology and dermatology of. You know, improving wrinkles and anti aging and all those nice benefits for our skincare. You know what else and the gray hair.

Speaker 2: 48:47

Yeah, hair spend a big one and you know there's a lot of really good studies of using the hair helmets. You know, most of the time I think there are a laser hair helmet and they use red wavelengths and you know, with the hair growth seems to be a good model for for biphasic dose response, because we don't want to inhibit those, those hair follicles. So they always do them every other day for dosing but and it takes kind of a longer term kind of thing. It takes at least six months to start to see a little bit more of that hair growth metabolism. But yeah, I was just thinking of, you know, sleep is a big one, like you mentioned. You know we, we build a lot of the melatonin in our cells and that acts as a powerful antioxidant. So we build it by our mitochondria from near infrared stimulation. That Scott has gone over and he's done the research on, on I think, and so that acts as a powerful antioxidant and that helps with our sleep and circadian rhythm. You know I always say using red light therapy in the mornings is kind of a stand in for some of that bright light therapy or if you can't access sunlight in the mornings, that if you aim it at your face and you get that bright red light that you know. That helps me for kind of waking up, getting the alertness in the mornings and getting stimulated the right ways. That's much safer than a lot of the bright light therapies that use blue lights or white, you know, strong white lights based on LEDs and fluorescence, you know. So using that as kind of a sleep aid, you know, and some people, yeah, they use it at night and it's very relaxing and helps them sleep. So that's, you know that's always a good thing, kind of just overall energy levels and recovery and just kind of feeling, feeling good and feeling your best. But yeah, there's so many different areas thyroid, you know, metabolism and mitochondrial function. Of that you know sometimes you can treat the thyroid or treat, you know, just your body.

Speaker 2: 50:35

First, systemic effects. Some of the studies show, you know, red light therapy has a systemic effect. So you talk, you know we talk about it improves circulation, improves lymph flow, so you can target your lymph nodes and try to get, you know, better lymph flow that way. But also it gets into your bloodstream. We have these cell free mitochondria in our bloodstream. That was only recently discovered and that is a good explanation for why red light therapy works systemically, that no matter where you target red light therapy, it's getting into your bloodstream and it's having kind of an overall systemic effect as well. So you can, even with relatively localized treatment, you know it does benefit other areas. One study they did two cuts on like a forearm and they only treated one cut, but the other cut healed faster than the control group that didn't get any treatments at all. So the untreated cut also heals faster, just by systemic mechanisms. So it's pretty remarkable that way and you can capitalize on more systemic treatments by treating the tibia or any kind of superficial bones, so your shin bone, your sternum, your forehead, where we have these superficial bones, and that can help stimulate stem cell production and that helps. You know they've done that, they treated the tibia and like rats, and it helps with heart health and it helps with brain health and so that's really amazing that you don't even need to target the brain at all and still get systemic benefits.

Speaker 2: 52:05

And then the gut also is the gut microbiome and reducing inflammation in the gut or or however it reaches. It probably doesn't actually reach, like you know, the intestines, but you know wherever you target there's kind of bystander effects. So I try to caution people. You don't need these high intensities and you don't need to blast yourself that as long as you target over that area you don't have to worry too much about getting that penetration.

Speaker 2: 52:31

I got to blast myself but you know there's bystander effects and you know nearby cells kind of you know it propagates through and helps benefit nearby cells. And then so when you improved your gut health, your gut inflammation, that also benefits your brain, you know. So they're starting to do combination treatments. When they do brain health studies they're going to do the brain and do the gut, or maybe they'll do the brain and the tibia. So that's how you can really maximize your benefits without again, you know, I have to blast my brain. You can target your brain with a low dose but then also target your gut and your tibia with a low dose and again, just try to build up those benefits.

Speaker 1: 53:12

And on the topic of these systemic benefits of localized therapy or at local application, I immediately thinking about one study that was done by Glenn Jeffrey at the beginning of the year that showed only 15 minutes of 670 meter visible red light on the screen Prior to doing a glucose tolerance test was able to significantly reduce the basically the curve of an oral glucose tolerance test, and what that means in translation for people is that we use we basically give people 75 grams of glucose drink to as a diagnostic test to investigate things like insulin resistance and make diagnoses of type 2 diabetes, and what this study showed was that red light 670 nanometer light was able to essentially up regulate mitochondrial functions such that it was reducing blood glucose levels.

Speaker 1: 54:08

So I think that is a very elegant description or example of what you've described in terms of a potentially systemic benefit of getting red light, and obviously you can use a panel and maybe anyone who's living in a city who has diabetes or polycystic ovary syndrome or fatty liver disease, whatever, could basically treat themselves with a biomodulation device prior to living their life. Maybe they don't want to make too many dietary changes and obviously I'd always encourage going out in the sunlight and moving out of the metropolitan areas, but it just goes to show that's an option and that the power of light to affect metabolic health, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 54:51

And that, yeah, that study just published officially just a couple of weeks ago and it's already made into a couple of the medical news website so it's already gone kind of viral and yeah, the MedCram channel covered it late last year. But yeah, it's a really remarkable finding and maybe that's part of what has drawn me towards red light therapy and stuff with my weight issues and blood sugar issues and just starting to feel better and feel a little bit more regulated when you have that red light therapy. And yeah, you can time it where, if you, you know, if you do red light therapy in the mornings, you know that can hopefully set up your metabolism for the red for the rest of the day. Or, you know, as the study did, they did it about 45 minutes before taking the glucose and that helps kind of ride because a lot of the benefits of red light therapy happen Even three to six hours after a red light therapy session has ended. So you get a peak of stimulation of ATP production and in a lot of these metabolites, you know, after red light therapy has ended. So and you know, I think that's a good point of like, people want kind of instant gratification and instant results, but a lot of the benefits come from, you know, after, after it's been done, and you know doing it with like that consistency. So, and you know, if you, if you get your metabolism right and your mitochondria right, then yeah, it's going to help your blood sugar.

Speaker 2: 56:14

There's been other studies with diabetic patients with the ulcers and on the legs and just in general. You know the electron transport chain is reliant on proper glucose metabolism. One other study showed that it requires glucose in your system to work for red light therapy to even work. That's the basic, you know component of you know how that aspect of metabolism works and so you need glucose in the system. So I saw one blog that kind of took it a little too literally of like, oh, do red light therapy while you eat or, like you know, just before, and I'm like we, most people, already have plenty of glucose in their system so we don't need to, like, take a dose of glucose just for red light therapy to work.

Speaker 2: 57:01

But you know it is an interesting aspect of how, how it works, that maybe if there could be situations where injecting a little extra glucose could, could boost the benefits, and there's. You know a lot of people talk about trying to synergize red light therapy with a methylene blue and with you know I've seen other studies. We've seen other studies on CoQ10, which is also very good for supporting mitochondrial health, with niacinamide. With you know, we just generally need a well rounded diet, to you know, and do proper exercise and do all that stuff, because red light therapy is so holistic with our diet and our lifestyle, then it really compounds a lot of the benefits of whatever you're trying to do with your health. Then it really stacks as just a great addition to any health routine.

Speaker 1: 57:50

Yeah, amazing, and I really want to hammer a home a point which is one that I've talked about a lot of my podcast, which is the influence of the environment on metabolism and having come from a diet centric paradigm of treating and reversing metabolic disease, which is what the kind of the major part of doctors who are reversing diabetes are purely doing it with diet. And the point that I think that I really like to emphasize is how important not only the inputs to the mitochondria are in terms of food and they're obviously the electron inputs that we get through food but the actual environment that those mitochondria are existing in, particularly light and temperature. And I interviewed Dr Thomas Segar, who is a engineer as well, who has done a heap of research on ice baths, and he made the observation that he could get into ketosis and he could pull a whole heap of glucose out of his system if he'd eaten a cake or something like this by simply a couple of minutes in his ice bath. So what that is we can think about is both the temperature and light is massively modulating the mass of modulators of mitochondrial function, mitochondrial efficiency, and if we can get those two inputs dialed, then what Dr Jack Kruse has said for the past 10, 20 years is that it matters less what you're putting in your mouth and more about the context that those mitochondria are existing in.

Speaker 1: 59:23

So if the coolant system of the mitochondria are working, if the lubrication system of the mitochondria are working, if all those other givens are dialed, then there is some latitude that we've got in terms of kind of the food and, like you said, andrew, it's not an excuse to go out and drink the two liters of Gatorade and eat the Taco Bell Mountain Dew Pie, but it is just another way of modulating our metabolism. And again, sunlight is always what I'm going to be emphasizing, but this is just a tool in the toolkit. And can you, can you speak specifically about two topics that I really am interested in currently? One of them is skin preparation and there's evidence that red light prior to the right to UV light exposure and basically reduces erythema of UVB induced sunburn. Are you aware of those particular studies or can you speak to the value of red light in terms of preparing the skin for ultraviolet light?

Speaker 2: 1:00:32

Yeah, yeah, and that was in a really good paper called infrared and skin friend or foe. That you can read for free on online is a really great study that goes over a lot of that with the Cellular kind of preconditioning, so any kind of Assault on your cells. You know stress poisons, you know literally some. Sometimes they use like red light therapy before some sort of poison. You know a mitochondrial poison like cyanide supports the mitochondrial health better at that tolerating certain poison, and the same thing goes with Ultraviolet. So we, you know, we know we want to be out in the sunlight, but in the early morning we get preferentially Red and ear and Fred, the way the sunlight is filtered through the atmosphere. So that's why we get more red and ear and Fred in the mornings and then that can set us up. You know, for Almost it has an SPF kind of protection that some studies say that red and ear and Fred light before UV, your sunlight has almost like a SPF 15. So it's not you know, you're full, your full kind of protection, but it gives you a little bit of extra protection.

Speaker 2: 1:01:38

It's sometimes it seems to help produce more melanin in the skin as as that means of protection. So you know, I kind of dug into some of the Dermatology stuff. If you don't want a hyperpigmentation response, you might need to avoid Red and in the UV and the blue exposure because it'll actually increase your, your melanin response, which you know for most of time. For most people that don't have that issue, that's great. We can build up a better kind of tan that's more protective of sunlight and UV. So, yeah, there's a lot of good, good studies on using red and ear and Fred before some sort of UV or even a blue light, you know, and there's studies are starting to show of the blue light having an impact on Creating melanin in the skin too. So yeah, that's that's always a good thing of Trying to combine red and your friend with the UV and blue, which you know would have been found in nature anyway.

Speaker 1: 1:02:35

Yeah, and there's some. I'm not sure if you're, if you're planning to make a device like this, but some people have, I believe, on the market have made a UV device that has a couple of wavelengths of UV, but they've also added red and near infrared just to make a more appropriate Kind of UV, kind of tanning lamp. The other thought thought that I had is people who are using Isolated UV for vitamin D and you put you probably just use it outside in the morning to also get those benefits.

Speaker 2: 1:03:06

Yeah, yeah, you know it's. It's gonna be interesting of trying to combine you at different wavelengths of UV and red and your friend, you know there's some restrictions for what I can and can't do, depending on FDA. You know classification of UV and the eye health issues and you know if you use it wrong then then you could damage your skin or your eyes. So there's more FDA regulations on making UV devices. So I used, like, the spurty lamp, because they do have some sort of FDA clearance and they've done some studies in, you know. But I do have my red lights kind of next to it. So I kind of do both at the same time or I do the red first and then I rotate to the, to the UV, and turn that on After I've done the red for a couple minutes.

Speaker 1: 1:03:49

Yeah, and there is evidence again of. I want to make the point of this idea of photo aging that occurs with, with isolated blue light and and maybe the whole Idea of using sunscreen is that block UV but let these high energy photons from the adjacent visible light spectrum of blue and and you people are kind of tricked into Lying out in the sun for all hours of the day in the midday that's how the sun's used in Australia essentially, and yet you're probably contributing to photo aging and possibly A Zimmerman has mentioned and possible basal cell carcinoma, just based on the dynamics of the absorption of of that light. So, and yeah, it's, it's interesting, just it, just it's how much home in the point that we have to be careful with with visible blue, because it's it is that they are high energy, it's so close to UV and and it's always been balanced with red and infrared. So, yeah, that that's a. That's a very interesting point. And and circling back to what I mentioned earlier about and blue regulating melanin and production, that is, that there is a pathway that I can mention via in Kefal option that regulates Melanogenesis and and this idea that maybe the rise of melanoma that we're seeing is actually a function of everyone's artificial light exposure and Jack Cruz made the point and I thought think this is such an elegant proof is that the fastest growing type of melanoma is UV melanoma.

Speaker 1: 1:05:14

So it's an ocular. It's an ocular melanoma, meaning it's an eye, and Everyone is basically and I say everyone kind of hyper in with hyperbole. But the vast majority of people are Looking at their screens all day and you know whatever? 90 something percent of East Asians in Korea and Japan and China have some form of myopia. So it makes sense that If we are observing this rise in UV melanoma and which is the most common ocular malignancy, then we can. It's fitting the pieces in that that isolated blue light is is playing, playing a role in. Can you talk about osteoporosis, because that is, and what you know about the evidence around using red light therapy for osteoporosis? Because the bone is a deep structure. It might be one of those examples where we need perhaps closer skin contact or higher energy to get down there. And do you have or do you know of the evidence for improving bone mineral density in osteopenia and osteoporosis?

Speaker 2: 1:06:11

I haven't know, I haven't seen. You know I haven't reviewed or dug deep into the science on osteoporosis. You know it's one of those areas that it could help support. Like you said, it's hard to reach some of those deeper areas more directly but we could still, you know, support our health. If you know, if there's areas of inflammation and areas that could be eroding, you know, the bone health and things like that that you could use red light therapy more systemically to help just kind of support your body systems, to support the bone health. So, yeah, I think you know there's a lot of potential for that. I think you know if you have to target a specific bone, then yeah, that that's where you have to look at how do we get the deeper penetration? Use the near infrared wavelengths, use the, you know, skin contact method to help compress the skin a little bit. But, you know, still just focus on on lower doses and try to just get that simulator response and do it over a longer period of time. But yeah, I haven't haven't really dug into that science.

Speaker 1: 1:07:10

No worries. And what about thyroid? Because thyroid dysfunction is very common and again on another whole topic, but benefits of thyroid specific therapy that you can share.

Speaker 2: 1:07:23

Yeah, I mean I've heard mostly antidote anecdotes. I'm not sure how many studies are specific for targeting the thyroid, but it seems like, yeah, a lot of people get success if they use their red light device. You know the thyroid is a pretty kind of superficial gland or organ, that's that's you know we can access with reds and near infrared. So sometimes even red might be safer because you don't want that deep penetration from your infrared. So a little bit of red and getting that stimulatory response and again, just focus on your whole body, your inflammation markers and things like that, then red light therapy will manage anyway. So you just do a small dose on your thyroid and then focus on more systemic effects and you know, for any conditions you know you might want to work with your doctor or work with a practitioner to monitor your thyroid levels, if you need to adjust medications or just you know how you're approaching it or your lifestyle, and you know, just monitor that and then that's ideally how you would dose. You know any therapy, like red light therapy, of like okay, my markers are working in the right direction and so I'm doing red light therapy the right way for this condition. So that might be a very interesting way to do red light therapy.

Speaker 2: 1:08:31

But yeah, sometimes it's listed, as you know, an area of concern for you know, if you have a thyroid condition they could stimulate the thyroid, which you know we think is a good thing. But if you're already on medication or you're managing it in other ways, it could interfere with that. So just be cautious of how you can introduce it. There was one study on kind of neck skin, kind of health and reducing wrinkles around the neck and they did monitor the thyroid. So in healthy people there was no issue. So you know, if you're healthy, you've got a relatively healthy thyroid.

Speaker 1: 1:09:02

Then you know there's no issue yeah, and look, people with hypothyroidism, who perhaps Hashimoto is most commonly and they are on thyroid replacement therapy. When they do things like carnivore and low carbohydrate diets and improve their circadian rhythm, they will find that they might become jittery, they might have palpitations or they essentially become super their the dose excessively. For that they're a new amount of thyroid sensitivity, thyroid hormone sensitivity. So if that's the case, then, yeah, basically just needs to be monitored and potentially doses down to I traded, but I'm definitely recommend doing that with your, with your doctor, and not not necessarily by yourself. So fantastic with any other specific that.

Speaker 1: 1:09:44

There is one more and the implication and you made a great Instagram post about this which is such a deep rabbit hole and I think is potentially completely game changing which is its effect on cardiovascular health and cardiovascular disease. Now, gerald Pollock was, is basically been the guy who discovered that in infrared light could potentially blood flow through the cardiovascular system for its effect on basically the exclusion zone in blood vessels. So talk to us about that and maybe the evidence around photobiomodulation for cardiac conditions yeah, no, I mean, it's a huge area there.

Speaker 2: 1:10:22

I think I did see a big review article for for cardiovascular health and one of the more you know relevant things that I've been seeing lately is for, you know, kind of blood clots and some of these you know, spike protein type issues that are kind of systemic inflammation and effects of heart and all these things, and it's listed on the FLCCC's website of using photobiomodulation or even sunlight, as you know, the cardio protective aspects and clearing out that you know, the spike protein and managing that systemic inflammation. So that's, you know, a huge area right now that people should be considering. You know, I get a lot of emails from people that are suffering with brain fog and other issues that are affecting their brain, affecting their heart, affecting your respiration and all that stuff. So, yeah, with heart health, again, the heart is a highly mitochondrial muscle.

Speaker 2: 1:11:16

You know, I think I do have, yeah, a post of, like, different organs and their numbers of mitochondria per cell. So organs the brain, the heart, the eyes and liver all are very high in mitochondria and they need that, that support. And you know, again, even if we can't directly penetrate the skin all the way, even a small percentage can reach reach the heart or reach certain organs. You know there's bystander effects and systemic effects that also help improve it. So it's, it's going to be, you know, such a huge area for, yeah, for heart health and for dealing with some of these, these current issues with people are facing.

Speaker 1: 1:11:52

Yeah that makes so much sense to me because if we're able to potentiate the, the exclusion zone in the blood vessels, and aid in in blood vessel healing and endothelial health, that that completely makes sense in terms of the vercose triad and and blood clotting and obviously to, as you said, assist in the function of any tissue that is is dense in mitochondria. And it gets again to this concept of the mitochondrial, bio, energetic etiology of disease, which is Doug Wallace's work, which showed that aging and all these chronic diseases are simply manifestations, organ specific manifestations, of mitochondria dysfunction and with, with year after year, debt degradation in mitochondrial efficiency. It's just, it's going to be a function of luck and genetics and specific environmental factors as to which one of these mitochondrally dense organs fails first. And if it's your retina, you might get my macular degeneration, if it's your brain, you're going to get Alzheimer's disease and, you know, if it's a heart, you might get some form of heart failure. So, and yes, supporting these, these organs with infrared light, again, sun first and then, but obviously using this as part of our photoblog, my modulation is out, part of our toolkit. Is is another very important factor.

Speaker 1: 1:13:06

And I also think about using the emergency department, because I also work in the, in the ED and you mentioned that.

Speaker 1: 1:13:13

And for cyanide poisoning your methylene blue is is something that gets used. But I'm just imagining if someone comes in an acute heart failure and yes, we're doing, and you know, all the things that we we have to do from a acute management point of view. But what if we did have a couple of therapy light panels that were mounted on because we already have lights in the, in the ED resource cubicles to, you know, for procedures, intubation, whatever. Imagine if we had a couple of photo, my modulation panels attached to the roof and as the patient was essentially being resuscitated and whether that is, you know, in acute pulmonary demon because of of heart failure, whatever else, you could basically put those panels on the patient at the same time. And I wonder maybe this is a study for someone emergency physician in the audience who's listening to do man could we do a controlled trial that in some way able to demonstrate benefit in an acute emergency setting from from that therapy? That's a fascinating idea that I just came up with.

Speaker 2: 1:14:13

Yeah, I think, yeah, I mean it should be almost considered a first line of first line therapy, first line defense. It's so. I mean it's relatively not invasive, it's extremely safe. There's almost no downsides, there's only can be upsides, and especially when we get more sophisticated with getting the dosing right. Yeah, yeah, no, for sure. Just want to make sure we lost, okay, and was like but getting the dosing right in the yeah, getting the dosing right. But that's a break here.

Speaker 1: 1:14:45

I'm so stoked. I think this is like game changing, because I mean it's just completely game changing to help people without necessarily having these risk risk risk profiles of some of these medications is just helping the whole system alone.

Speaker 2: 1:14:59

Yeah yeah, so, yeah. So if you get the dosing right, you know and we really appreciate where we're going with red light therapy, we can really implement it in acute issues with long term issues and all that stuff and what I've read in some of the articles, some of the Russian authors they're saying this is already a standard of care. There's already thousands of laser dosing, laser devices already in clinics in Russia. It's just kind of what they do as a standard of care, even in terms of like laser acupuncture applications. That, you know, some people might think is a little bit out there, but because we know their systemic effects anyway, then the acupuncture makes a lot more sense. So you know it's already a standard care in maybe some other countries. And the US needs to really figure this out quickly if we want to optimize, you know, actually help people's health out in a very non invasive way yeah, I mean, the Russian sounds like they're doing things something a lot right if they've already incorporated this.

Speaker 1: 1:15:58

I mean, it's nothing that we got taught in medical school. I mean, no mania, and it just shows the disconnect and the lag time between the implementation of cutting edge science and, you know, clinical application. But you know, that's the promise of this more decentralized health movement and no pharmaceutical companies going to make a bunch of money when we, you know, if we implement these type of devices, but the patients can benefit at the end of the day, that is that's what matters the most. So, and did you have any more therapeutic applications that you wanted to make mention of? Cancer?

Speaker 2: 1:16:36

No, I think, what about?

Speaker 1: 1:16:37

cancer, anything to.

Speaker 2: 1:16:39

Cancer. Yeah, cancer is pretty tough because I think it could be used more just more as it helps support healthy mitochondrial function. So we know cancer is not always a DNA issue, it is a mitochondrial issue. It can be used therapeutically just to help support our healthy cells, which should help prevent some of the cancer indications. But, that said, there are cancers.

Speaker 2: 1:17:04

If you know you have a cancer, you don't directly treat it unless you really know what you're doing or if you're working with a doctor.

Speaker 2: 1:17:11

It's being going to be used as a managing cancer side effects and some of the cancer treatments, like oral mucositis, which is a side effect from the chemotherapy that affects a lot of pain and a lot of issues in your tongue and your mouth. So they're studying a lot of treatments that you can do on the tongue and through the cheeks and getting that as kind of a supportive thing for some of the symptoms. But you might not want to directly treat a cancer cell because we don't know how different types of cancer will respond to light therapies. But there is going to be a whole new kind of science called photodynamic therapy where a lot of times they'll inject a photosensitizing chemical into, like a cancer cell and then you put the light on and that causes apoptosis or kills the cancer cell. It could overheat it. So there's a lot of studies that are going to be down that avenue. That's kind of a different type of light therapy, again for targeting, trying to kill certain types of unwanted cells.

Speaker 1: 1:18:09

Yes, and that's exactly what I found when I had a brief look at the literature, which was the benefit has been in supporting the side effects of chemotherapy and radiotherapy and basically, cancer treatment associated side effects, and I think that's very good advice and very nuanced advice because, as you said, we don't know what this light could be doing and we don't want to accidentally potentiate the growth of certain tumors and if we don't know what exactly is going to happen and it's exciting. I mean, interventional radiology is one field that uses very, very targeted therapy to deal with certain tumors and cancers and I can just imagine maybe they could be responsible for leading some of this research into that photodynamic therapy. That's amazing, andrew. So much to talk about on that topic. Let's make mention now of the practicality. So how do we dose this therapy? How do we choose what size of panel to use? There's so much out there now, have so many brands, so many gizmos, gadgets, wavelengths make it really simple for people to understand what they need to be looking at and considering.

Speaker 2: 1:19:20

Yeah, yeah, and a lot of times with, I think, with like drugs and medicines and even supplements that kind of get prescribed to us we don't really think about the dosing and we aren't really empowered to dose things ourselves. Usually we get some pills how many pills do I take, when do I take it? And that's all you need to worry about. With red light therapy, there's a couple more steps involved, and the simplest kind of form that you have to keep in mind when we talk about this is you get a red light therapy device, you aim it at your skin, you can put it on your skin, or sometimes you're a couple inches away, so you just apply it at a certain distance and for a certain amount of exposure time, and so that's usually what a consumer that's all they should kind of have to worry about in an ideal world that if we knew everything we were doing right, we could say, okay, you put it on your skin or do a couple inches away, or whatever the manufacturer says, and use it for a certain amount of time a couple minutes, five minutes, 10 minutes, 20 minutes. So that's all you should have to think about in terms of dosing in a practical kind of perspective. But then we can kind of get into all the numbers and the power and the jewels and the energy and all that. So with red light therapy every different device is going to deliver a certain amount of power or intensity. So that's kind of how much radiation, how much radiant power. So power is your energy per second. So that's the rate at which energy is delivered. So you need and that's usually in watts, or more often people talk about watts per centimeter squared, where you kind of divide by the surface area that you're treating.

Speaker 2: 1:20:57

So most of the time you see devices like panels. We'll talk about middle watts per centimeter squared from the device. Then your exposure time you know how many seconds. You can multiply that by your exposure time and seconds and then you can calculate your energy density, which is your jewels per centimeter squared. Or, like I said, some studies just use the total jewels of the total energy that you get. But you know you want that jewels per centimeter squared to be within that therapeutic range. You don't want too much for the biphasic dose response, you don't want too little. And I think most people get the too little part and they are kind of afraid that, oh, what if I don't do enough, but you can. You know it's very effective even at relatively low doses. So you know, you can start with a couple jewels per centimeter squared. Four to six is a pretty good range for, I find, for LED panels. And then, you know, don't be afraid of kind of tailoring it up or down.

Speaker 2: 1:21:51

So I do have a dosing calculator on my blog. You just type in your intensity and what what you know jewels you want, and it'll tell you how much exposure time. So that's a very quick way. But the math is very simple, you know, and I show you the map is just simple multiplication, and maybe you have to convert the units. You know, if you're talking about minutes, you multiply by 60 seconds. Or if you're talking about, you have to convert milliwatts to watts. So you have to, you know, multiply or divide by 1000 sometimes. But so it's pretty straightforward. So you get the right amount of exposure time, you get the right amount of intensity.

Speaker 2: 1:22:26

So sometimes the dosing theory tells you oh, you know, if you do high intensity you can do a shorter amount of time, get the same amount of energy density, and that works kind of to a point. But the studies are very clear that sometimes too high of an intensity doesn't get you the right response. It doesn't get you the healing response, especially high intensities that cause a lot of heating and then you start creating, you know, heat therapy mechanisms or you could create more ROS from the heat. So typically you want again that low intensity is kind of the name of the game to get it right. But you know, think about. I'm more practical about thinking about how do you want to use red light therapy and don't just think about what all the conditions you're trying to cure, because you know a lot of companies can't make that claim anyway. But don't think about like, oh, what's the best device like, without really thinking about how you're going to use the device, when are you going to use it? When are you going to fit it in with your lifestyle and make it practical, that something you can use consistently? So there was one quote when I was shopping for cameras, of like, the best camera you have is the one you have on you. So if you've got a phone camera and you don't need, you don't have your big DSLR, your phone camera is the best camera that you have and you want to take a picture of something nice. Same thing with red light therapy. The best red light therapy is the one that you can use consistently. So I don't care, you know, oh, we have the biggest power, we have the most wavelengths we have, we're big or we're smaller or whatever. It's something that you need to use consistently.

Speaker 2: 1:23:56

So that's the key point and I usually end up talking people down from like, okay, yeah, you can do a full body panel, a big panel you have to think about, are you going to hang it on a wall or are you going to hang it on a door? Are you going to get a stand and then are you going to stand or sit in front of it? You know, I know some companies kind of have a horizontal stand so you can lay under it. But that gets pretty obtuse in terms of how much space you have to dedicate to it and the maintenance. And I have some lightweight panels you can just lay down and just lay the panel right on you or you can get a flexible pad. So I think those are much more practical than getting a big panel that you need a horizontal stand for. But yeah, but overall that's really great you get, you know, with full body light therapy.

Speaker 2: 1:24:39

I have to remind people it's more of a systemic treatment. It's more of that whole body treatment, especially when it's non-contact, that you're a couple inches away, that you get a lot of skin reflection losses. You don't get the deep penetration when you get skin contact, like a lot of studies will press the lasers or the LED diodes into the skin. That compresses the skin a little bit and you get much better penetration. So with full body panels you get that systemic response. It's more of you know that sunlight supplement of being non-contact and getting the right kind of stimulation for your whole body. And then you know if you need that deeper treatment or targeted treatments. That's where smaller devices are more convenient for the targeted deeper penetration and to place right on the skin. And you know, I just think smaller devices that are more convenient. And if you can use skin contact you don't have to measure out distances and you know, do all that. And I see all the selfies of people like trying to hold a device like certain inches away and like who's going to hold a device for like 10 minutes, like that. So you know it kind of gets. You just slap it on, you, just lay it on you, you know. So it should be very simple.

Speaker 2: 1:25:46

So the dosing issue you get a couple of the right wavelengths. You don't have to overthink them. If you get a couple of reds, you know I usually use 630, 660, couple nearing four reds like 810, 830, 850, you know. So most of my panels are anywhere from, you know, three wavelengths to five wavelengths, but again, you only need one or two wavelengths to get a good benefit. So you know, most of the studies show they only use one or two wavelengths and then you just need the right amount of intensity and sometimes the intensities.

Speaker 2: 1:26:20

In some studies with LED panels that cover a large area, they're using 2.9 milliwatts per centimeter squared, which a lot of people would be freaking out that it's way too low. But it works. Because it's a large panel it's got a systemic effect. The study you know we just talked about for glucose that was 40 milliwatts per centimeter squared. So for me that's a little bit on the higher end, because once you start getting past 50 or 55 milliwatts per centimeter squared, especially in a large panel, you get a lot of heating and so the photons get converted into heat and they don't get utilized for some of the photochemical effects that we want on the mitochondria or for forming easy water or, you know, getting the ion channel modulation. So you know, a little bit of heat is okay from red light panels, but it's not supposed to be a heat therapy. So I think for me that's a kind of a pivotal part of the dosing that now I feel like I have to remind people of, because the industry has gone so off track with such high intensity products that some people are just basically using red light therapy as a heat therapy, which you know I'm all about heat therapies too, especially, you know, radiant heat therapies. It feels very nice but you know the science is very separate.

Speaker 2: 1:27:34

That photo biomodulation and low level light therapy, very specifically designed as cold light therapies, as non-thermal light therapies. They do a lot of things to limit the heating, like sometimes they pre-cool the skin because it actually increases the skin transparency. When you put ice or some sort of cryo cooling that, if you know, if you do your cold plunges or you do whatever you're out in the cold for a while, what do you notice? That your skin, your blood has drained away from your skin. Your skin appears more pale and more transparent and that's better for penetration of the light. So actually combining cool with light therapy is better than combining heat and light therapy most of the time If you really want that penetration and get that true kind of photo biomodulation stimulation into the deeper cells. So you get less penetration when you get heat because it encourages more blood flow for thermal regulation and a lot of people like oh, I'm feeling heat. So I'm getting deep penetration, but no, we don't actually have heat sensors that are much deeper than the skin. So if you're getting heat, you're literally feeling it superficially and, like I said, it's a sign that you're going to start to get less penetration, because most of photons are getting superficially converted into heat and it causes the mechanisms of blood flow.

Speaker 2: 1:28:52

So you know, all these details unfortunately have kind of we've kind of lost the plot line of what red light therapy is and isn't of, you know, just using low intensities, getting the right amount of exposure time, and you can't really take a shortcut of, oh, I'm going to use high intensity for a couple seconds and get a dose, and sometimes that could work. Sometimes you know it wouldn't work. So, but yeah, most of the studies are using low intensity. For that reason there's a biphasic aspect to intensity and not just to the dose. So that's, I'm going to try to make an argument or a YouTube video about some of the studies that really show that that there's a biphasic aspect to intensity, and that seems to be a hard idea to grasp.

Speaker 2: 1:29:35

But I was trying to think of, like, if you use five gallons of water in an hour, you're not going to feel very good. You're going to mess up your electrolytes. You might cause some problems or some damage. If you drink five gallons of water over the course of a couple of days, then that's fine, right. If you space out your water intake, you're supposed to, so it's the rate at which you drink water that's hazardous, it's not just how much water you can drink. So the rate of intensity is very different and, like we said, they've already made very clear the intensity of high intensity. Lasers cause heating and they cause damage and that's why they use cold lasers. But yeah, so that's kind of the whole bit.

Speaker 2: 1:30:18

But most of the time you should be able to trust your manufacturer, give you some reasonable range of distance and exposure time and how often. So that's important too. Sometimes you want to space out your doses. You can do it every other day or couple times cumulative response that builds up in your cells. So you don't want to do it too frequently either.

Speaker 2: 1:30:38

If you do it twice a day or three times a day, depending on your condition, that might be too much, unless someone really has a pain condition.

Speaker 2: 1:30:45

They're just trying to manage with red light therapy. But most of the time you want to do it daily if you're doing low doses, like a home use device, or you can space it out, you know, couple times a week. So that's a big part of proper dosing is thinking about the longer term, of how often are you doing as well. But other than that, yeah, most of the time you should be able to, you know, get a product, how many inches away, how long, how often, and that's it. And then you know some of the tips we talked about where to target your areas of pain, inflammation, the organs you want to support, whatever that is, and then maybe target some systemic areas like your tibia, your gut, your sternum, your forehead, and that should cover it. Or you just get a full body device. I think that's the benefit of full body devices you don't really need to decide where to apply it, you just do your whole body and you hold for the best.

Speaker 1: 1:31:39

So when you said you can't drink five gallons of water over an hour, it reminded me of another saying is you can't make a baby by getting nine women pregnant and waiting one month.

Speaker 2: 1:31:53

So the rate is very, very. The rate is kind of fixed and yeah, that's what they talk about as a dose rate response in some of the literature. I'll find that quote for one of my new videos. But you know, sunlight, again, that range is about 30 to, I think, 50 milliwatts per centimeter squared in that range, which is a very therapeutic.

Speaker 2: 1:32:16

So you know, a lot of companies will say, oh, our panels or our devices are a thousand times more powerful than sunlight. You have to use us. You can't use sunlight and that would be ridiculous because you would just burn yourself if it was so much higher intensity. So your skin was attuned to the certain amount of heat and the energy levels and the intensity of sunlight. So if we try to do multiple times more than what sunlight would naturally give us, then that's problematic. That's what leads to photoaging caused by rent and urine for sunlight because of too much heat and too much. You know, our skin just wasn't meant to manage that much intensity. So there's a biological component that several studies have mentioned that, hey, sometimes the best intensity seems to match what sunlight would give us anyway. So and we don't need to fool ourselves that we're outsmarting nature and doing high intensities, for, you know, a speculative kind of reason.

Speaker 1: 1:33:12

I want to make a point about the temperature usage and you had a really great video about this which I shared with my community group and everyone really really enjoyed it which is this idea that you really actually want to be separating the therapeutic photobiomodulation and any kind of tech which is going to be the nearer infrared wavelengths, from the temperature and the sauna benefit of far infrared, which is a heating benefit.

Speaker 1: 1:33:36

So what that looks like is, if you're using these devices, then use them at room temperature, or maybe even after you've got out of your cold plunge, where these wavelengths of light can penetrate into your body more effectively, and then do the sauna therapy in the afternoon, when you're in a Swedish sauna with the hot rocks, you know it's dark inside, but you're getting all those far infrared and heat benefits.

Speaker 1: 1:34:00

So you're not trying to combine the two of them, which is, you know, lighting up your sauna with these therapeutic near infrared photons at the same time as heating, because, as you mentioned, that's kind of counterproductive. It also gets to a point and you made this point in another video which is the historical use of heliotherapy was at altitude and at cold temperature, and anyone who's listened to my Jack Cruise series he ends one of the podcasts by saying the trick is to be getting sunlight and getting cold, and that gets to the heart of what I mentioned, which is the environment that the mitochondria are in. So if you can use light and temperature at the same time, that to me is the rocket fuel for healing or your mitochondria.

Speaker 2: 1:34:46

Yeah, yeah, some of the original heliotherapy clinics were built in Lasin, switzerland, in the Alps, in around Buffalo, new York, in the Rocky Mountains, all in very cool climates. And one of the original sun doctors said that they purposely wanted to do sunlight therapy in a cooler climate to kind of offset that heat from the sun and to keep you cool and it seemed much more therapeutic to get sunlight therapy while it was cool. So yeah, I get a lot of rhetorical arguments of like, oh well, the sun feels really hot and so it's okay to combine heat and light therapy. And again, there might be some merits to that. But generally the therapeutic use in all the studies and even heliotherapy preferred to be in a cooler climate. And even if you're getting, even if you're not in a cool climate, you're getting red light therapy in the early morning, in the evenings when the temperature is naturally cooler than midday sun. So even that's much more therapeutic that you're getting in the early morning while it's still cool, or in the evening when it's relatively cooler anyway. So there seems to be a lot of merits to keeping cool with the red and near infrared light therapy, of optimizing the healing.

Speaker 2: 1:35:56

So but yeah, I did a whole blog about how to do heat therapy properly, because I think you know there's a lack of precision about talking about heat therapies and saying, oh well, it feels good, as long as you don't burn yourself, then that's okay, which just sounds ridiculous. So some of the heat therapies you know you want to monitor your skin temperature, be within 38 to like 41 degrees Celsius and monitor that skin temperature and do it for 20 minutes or even up to about an hour to get that heat therapy which is kind of what you know a lot of the farm for it's son is. You don't feel like you're burning your skin when you're in a farm, for it's on a. Usually you're. You know the. The radiation from the son is our, you know, not as intense to feel like it's burning. It's just warming you up gradually. So that's a key component of any heat therapy. Still, don't want to burn yourself.

Speaker 1: 1:36:48

You just want to get that nice subtle warmth, and I'll just make the point that anyone who is getting sunlight at altitude needs to be careful about UV yield, because the UV yield is higher at altitude, and so anyone who's climb mountains will be able to tell you that they'll burn much, much easier. And obviously that's also a function of reflection of the ice in the snow, but just to keep that, keep that in mind. So we've, we've. This is an amazingly in depth episode and we really enjoyed speaking with you. I we actually haven't been able to cover everything I wanted to talk about, so I'll just have to get you on at another time, but any parting thoughts about anything we've talked about and maybe talk about or briefly just explain where people can find you and maybe try out one of your products.

Speaker 2: 1:37:32

Sure, yeah, you know, for for Gamber Red and what we started as is being very transparent and being accurate with our intensity measurements. So a lot of other companies are still false advertising their intensity with. They use these solar power meters which, as the name implies, they they weren't made to measure red and ear and forehead wavelengths. They can estimate sunlight pretty well because that's what they're calibrated to do. But they've got a photodiode that's got a sensitivity curve that falsely reads higher when you only read. You know, isolated ran in the ear and forehead wavelength. So it's like the perfect crime that you can show people this measurement tool and be like, oh, look at this big number on on a solar power meter and we're doing a hundred or 150 milliwatts per centimeter squared or these, these high numbers that you know if you understood the science. Anyway, those aren't even desirable numbers to have in the first place. So there's kind of two lies that I try to have to combat. These numbers are just false and to the narrative that was built up around these numbers is completely nonsense of. Like you would be overheating the skin, like I just talked about, you would be just doing a heat therapy with an LED panel, which I think will be a new type of therapy in the future. But right now, if you want red light therapy and and photo myomodulation, you want to stick to some of the lower intensities really less than about 50 milliwatts per centimeter squared, so you get in that true cold red light therapy range and still get a good dose. And, like I said, I've got products that are even lower intensity than that and they've been working great. So, yeah, it's not all about. You know the marketing and the hype and and the intensity and you know anyone that that kind of gives me an opportunity to try to call that out.

Speaker 2: 1:39:13

You know, and and unfortunately it's a battle that a lot of influencers, they they kind of ignore, they, they don't want to talk about, they think it's too negative. You know people email me all the time. Why are you so negative? I'm like isn't it negative to false advertise a medical device? But you know, so I think it's important, you know, and we have to build a strong foundation of science and integrity for red light therapy. Otherwise this will just get demonized as another fad and we'll end up, you know, being talked about in the future like Kellogg and Pliskin and some of these other light therapy gurus in the 1930s that were all demonized and you know they did cross the line on some of the medical claims they made. So we don't want, you know, red light therapy just to be another fad that's been taken advantage of and make a lot of false claims. We want to be very strong in the science and integrity.

Speaker 2: 1:40:03

So, yeah, that's my bit about that. But you know, we've got the website, gambaretcom, I've got YouTube channel, I've got an Instagram channel that are very active. But, yeah, you can always email me, find my contact info on the website If you've got specific questions, how to use red light therapy or any of the specifics that we went over today, or where you can find the blogs that have tons of references, tons of science behind them, you know, and find my learning center on the website. That's got all my blogs kind of categorized. So, yeah, I provide a lot of free resources for anyone to read. So I think a lot of people are learning about dosing and learning about these concepts from my blogs and that's great.

Speaker 2: 1:40:46

But yeah, that's pretty much my whole spiel. So we, you know, and I've got different products, different shapes, different sizes, different price ranges, so really try to cover all the different applications. I've got night lights and a red light bulb that you just screw in, and so that's good for the ambient light at night that we didn't touch too much on. But that's not a red light therapy, it's just having the ambient light so you can subtract the white lights and the blue rich lights. If you can subtract those out from your nighttime rituals, your sleep hygiene, then you can get you know, ideally better sleep or more melatonin production. That's more natural with the red lights because that doesn't mess up your circadian rhythm as much. So we've got some night lights as well. So that's, yeah, that's kind of a spiel.

Speaker 1: 1:41:31

Well, thank you so much. It's been an absolute pleasure talking with you, and it will have to pick this up, this set up, on another occasion. So yeah, thanks for sharing all your wisdom, and I'm sure the audience is really going to enjoy this one. So yeah, see you later Great.