CASEY: Welcome to the Questions to Hold podcast. I'm your host and BWB founder, Casey Carroll. In a world that often praises answers over questions, the act of holding a question is an act of resistance, presence, and devotion. In this podcast, I hold space for discussion at the intersection of life's biggest questions and our personal and professional worlds.
These are honest conversations with progressive leaders dedicated to questioning our institutions, igniting change, and provoking new possibilities.
Join me for my next discussion.
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CASEY: Hello everyone and welcome to the Questions to Hold podcast. Today I am with a very special friend and mentor and guide and peer, um, and beloved in my life. Whenever I talk to you, Ayesha, I immediately feel like, I get landed right into my heart space and there's, like a tenderness and a softness and an exhilaration. And like a love feeling. So that's where I'm kind of centering in myself today from my emotional body and leaping into this conversation, which feels really good. And, um, I'm just excited for the listeners to be along on this journey as we dive into some of the questions that we're sitting with today. So I'm gonna kick it over to you to introduce yourself in whatever way feels true for you in this moment. You can name identifiers for yourself or you cannot, you can say anything that you'd like that would make sense for the context of what we might talk about today, and then we can dive into the conversation.
AYESHA: Bless you, Casey. I am very thankful to be here with you and very thankful for the times that we have spent together in community and just how grounded I feel when we come together. It's really beautiful. The way that your presence alone, I feel that it invites me to come into the present moment, thinking back, uh, on each of the times that we've been together. I am Ayesha Walker and I am a mother to a beautiful son Ali, here in the flesh and mother to my angel twin babies, Molly and Asada. Ashay. I feel guide me so much, guide me and us what, what I believe is part of my mission here in this lifetime, which is the whole space for those of us who are navigating grief and loss and especially through my work as the co-founder and CEO of BE-IMAGINATIVE which is an amazing organization of Emmy award-winning artists, healers, community leaders who are dedicated to healing our communities through creative storytelling. I am also, I'm an artist. I'm a visual artist especially, and I love to use my work as a photographer, a graphic designer, to amplify the work of BE-IMAGINATIVE. I've also, like, I'm just now getting to the point in my life where I am publicly sharing my love for astrology and also cardology as I've been studying cardology from a brother named Malik Deshaun and I've also had a love for astrology since the eighth grade. So I read the 52 deck of playing cards to basically support me on my individual journey and support those of us who are interested in learning more about themselves on a cosmic level.
CASEY: I'm so interested. I feel like we could spend the whole episode talking about the relationship between questions and astrology and cardology and all of those pieces. We're not gonna go necessarily down that today, but just as you were speaking about that part of your life and work, I started to think about what a beautiful dance those two have together of like the questions that we're holding. And then when we read our cards and we dive into the astrology and all of that understanding of ourself, um, and coming back to us… there's something there. So maybe that's a part two of our conversation that we'll go into And I am super blessed just to say that I have been able to learn about BE-IMAGINATIVE’s work and all of that will be in the show notes of links to support that work, dive deeper into some of the pieces that Ayesha has named and will likely we'll talk about further. And I highly encourage everybody to check that out as well as, you know, links to anything else, Ayesha, that we might talk about today that are relevant. So I've had that privilege. And then also Caitlin and I love working with Ayesha in terms of getting some support around astrology, having our cards read and have done that as part of our business planning process the last couple of years, which has been like so revolutionary for us. We go back and reference those notes all the time. We're like, what? Oh, remember! Uh-oh! Check these cards, come back. So we've had the privilege of being on all sides of the work, which has been really amazing. I know some of the big questions we're gonna talk about that you're holding as that common thread between those pieces. But before we get there, I'm curious what your relationship, or if you've even thought about your relationship to questions in your life, period as, as a young person or even now, you know, how have questions been nurtured or not been nurtured? Really, what is some of the dynamic that's been around both the questions you might hold in your life, people asking questions of you, questioning, or institutions, you know, really you can take that in wherever you feel inspired from hearing that question.
AYESHA: Mmmmm! Goodness. Oh my goodness. First of all, I just loved the reading that we had together with the three of us, and you know, that was very, a very important moment for me too. Um, especially as I think about our organization, myself and relation to the organization and the work that we do with my life's purpose, and just looking in terms of alignment and to be able to share some of those moments with y'all was really special. So I really thank you for inviting me in in that way. So. Questions I, this makes me this question that you're asking me. I'm noticing some anxiety in my throat, anxiety that I feel in my heart, especially as I think about myself as a young person. Very curious, young person. And oftentimes when I would ask questions that, especially certain questions, I would, I would get like scolded. Like “that's none of your business, like, stay in a child's place”. I remember some of my questions were oftentimes about like, money, that I would ask adults in my life. Some of my questions were about like, why, like especially thinking of myself in a traditional educational system and it not all the way resonating with me. I later learned that I'm a creative person, I'm an artist. I later learned that I feel that I've been destined to be an entrepreneur. . So these traditional systems did not necessarily work for me in my growing mind and heart and spirit and, um, the questions that I would ask.. they, they, I think they created some discomfort in some people, in, in the adults in my life. Looking back on it now, I didn't have the language to explain it or articulate my experience in the way that I do now. Back then, I thought something was wrong with me. Oh, I learned like, those are not questions you ask. That's not what you do. So over time, I internalized those messages that I got from the people who I loved and admired and looked up to in my life and who taught me, you know, a lot that I am learning and unlearning, relearning, so complex, right? I learned especially … do not ask certain questions. So now I'm taking the time to unravel and to untangle that. And to ask bold questions.
CASEY: Yeah. Yeah. And I love what you're naming or how you led into that too, of your body's, how your body was responding in those moments too. And all the wisdom that's in, in there in and of itself, and, and the learning and the unlearning and the relearning that's required with our nervous systems, with our bodies, with kind of re-patterning those pieces again, that there's so much just even in that, and it's a lot of times, I think one of the questions in the card deck I have is like, “what does your body have to say?” And even being in that, like questioning and listening place with your body and just mapping reality or questions in that way is such a important key process. So I'm so happy that you brought it up that way and being in that questioning and listening with the body of like, okay, what's going on here? Throat, I feel you like what's happening here? I don't know. It just feels like that in and of itself is really important.
AYESHA: Definitely, and that's something I'm learning too, is like you talk about questions, the body has so many answers and I'm, I'm learning that, especially in therapy. Shout out to my friends. Selena being one of 'em, my friends Selena and Shirley. I remember one day we were in the car , they were like, “girl, you need therapy”, . And I was thinking to myself, I'm like, damn, I really do need therapy. Yeah. I have a bomb ass therapist who sits with me and she'll ask me how I feel. I remember she sent me, this chart, the chart that we had in elementary school with all the different faces and emotions on them, because she said to me, she would ask me how I feel, and I would say something that I'm thinking she's like, that is not a feeling. And so lately my work with myself has been to fall into my sensitivity more and more, and more and more into my sensitivity so that I can be very present with myself in the wisdom of my body.
CASEY: Yeah. Shout out to the therapist, the good therapists that are out there, we need you and I, I was just actually in conversation on another Questions to Hold episode with a therapist named Deena and she was sharing about how she really identifies as a listener and one of the pieces she feels is missing is just like we all need more attention. We all need more listening of ourselves. Somebody holding that space for us. Asking like, how do you feel like what you're naming too, and just being in that conversation… It feels true to what you're naming too. And even in a Questions to Hold workshop that I was holding last month, that's what we kicked off with that question that's asked all the time, how are you? But is rarely really held. It's like, good, I'm okay. Thanks. Or like a few things are said around that, but what's allowed, you know, therapy be in one space, but what, what emerges when we're really allowed to hold that question of like, how am I, there's so much there. And I was sharing in that workshop about how being a new mom, I was on a call and somebody asked like, oh, how are you doing? And I said something, but I was like, joking. I'm like, I pretty much blacked out. I have no idea what I said. I don't even know it was true because I didn't know how I was. I had no idea. I had no idea. And so then I hung up that phone and I was reflecting on that and I was just like, I have no idea how I am, and that's okay. But I, that was something like that, that became a journey for me to really start to be like, how am I?
AYEHSA: Right. That, that's also something that's hella interesting to me. Just how, one, when you talked about answering the question, blacking out, not knowing what your response was, or even how you feel or felt at the time. That's something that I also have been sitting with, like, I don't know how I feel and I've been, I've been working really diligently to ask that question, “how are you doing” intentionally? And to answer it intentionally. And then the other piece that I just wanted to make mention of I've been having these really powerful moments, especially with my kid who is so intuitive. He is so intuitive. It's really powerful. We were having a conversation as we were walking outta the store, and he's like, “your zodiac sign is a coyote”.. And I'm like, oh, okay. And I'm about to dismiss it, like, that's not a zodiac sign, breh. Like, that's , there's 12 Zodiac signs. But then I was like, wait a minute, Ayesha, calm yo self down. And I, I I, I was like, okay, well, hmm. I wonder what is the, like what's the spiritual representation behind coyotes? Together, we looked it up and it said something about, it was about forgiveness and lifting up the weight of the grudge so that we can move on our joyful selves. And it was a moment where Ali and I both reflected on the work that we need to do. When I asked Ali– and Ali's eight years old– I said to him, I said, well, you know what? What is it that you need to let go of? And I'm thinking he about to gimme some little kid answer. This man says, I know exactly what I need to let go of. And I said, well, what? And he says, he, he, he goes back to a moment that he had where someone said something very, uh, it was an adult who said something to him that he felt really misunderstood by, and also there's a grudge that he had been holding about a kid who had done something and he is like, I need to let it go. And then we had that conversation. The next day, we ran into the kid. He was well aware of the work that he needed to do, and he implemented the work and we were having these conversations and I, I'm just like, wow. What a, what a teacher he is, first of all. And I think about Theia and the ancient wisdom from Kimmit and how it says that knowledge is, uh, it's, it, No one has ever reached the depth of knowledge, that it's found amongst the children, the babies, it's, it's found amongst the people who work the grindstone. So it's like you can find it from anywhere and anything and I've just been leaning a lot into listening. Listening in many different aspects and areas of my life from a, from a spiritual perspective.
CASEY: Yeah. I mean really, honestly, and I say this often, the, to me, questions are a listening practice. In a sense, or a presence practice. And I love what you're naming with that moment with Ali, where you were listening for what could have been possible in the wisdom he brought forward, rather than like the dismissing or like, ah, no, it's not a Zodiac side, you know, all those kinds of things. And then what it opened up in all of that ways. And also just to go back what you were naming about being, holding space for a question like, how am I, or like when I just like blacked out and answered something, and those things to me happen because I've been programmed on many different social and cultural levels to have an answer and to be a good girl and answer like a good girl should or know how to, you know, whatever it is I have, so my, I have my own, everybody's got their own mind around it. So I did those things. But then what becomes possible when we can actually be in the heart of the question together and say something like, I don't know, I'm, I'm really curious about how I am right now. Not as an avoidance from being declarative, but actually just being, maybe more honest about the, the relationship of something like that and being in the, listening into it as, and you've talked about like even in here about being in your sensitivity and leaning into some of that spiritual dimension of that and that example with Ali. And I feel like all that feels connected to me and to some of that deeper presence listening work. Um, I think that's required to unhook from some of the automatic. So I'm curious if we can talk a little bit, if you're open to it, about BE-IMAGINATIVE, just to share a little bit about the organization, but even outside of that and some of the work that we've been doing together, there's many questions that BE is holding, which you can speak to if you'd like, but really around some of the conversations we've had about work and structures for organizations creating like organizations as founders, as uh, CEOs as you named that you are, and that I identify with as well, that are actually supporting our spiritual or humanness, like we're starting to talk about. So it's like one layer when you're talking about parenting and personal dynamic that we're sharing about, and then that takes on another layer and dimension when we move that into our work environment and then also being leaders and founders or co-founders of those environments. So I'm curious, just wherever that takes you, again, here of some of that question around what does it look like to make room for all that humanness in, in an organization and in BE-IMAGINATIVE right now? What are you learning about that?
AYESHA: Absolutely. Absolutely. That's a, that's a big one, right? Like how do we as an organization build the sustainability for not only just the organization, but for ourselves, for our families, and, you know, for our community? And how do we, how do we become sustained in the work? I think, I think so much about burnout I think so much around like, you know, this work that we do holding healing experiences for people, for those of us who are experiencing very trying times, like we're, we're talking about being in darkness and in pain and the suffering and the trauma, like these experiences that unfortunately many people who come from areas like where we come from, experience at a disproportionate level. It's not, it's not fair. We are holding these really powerful healing experiences with the ancestors who guide us and move us with the most high. Who holds us in this work with the artists, the musicians, the singers, the, the painters, the muralists who like together we are really standing in the work that Ancestor Maladoma Patrice Omay talked about. He said that the role of the artist is no different than the role of the priest. That it is both people's responsibility to give us access to the other world. And the world of, of our ancestors who guide us in this work. And when I think so much about healing, it requires for us to slow down. It requires for us to be still to sit and to take time to receive. And that could be just like you were talking about, the wisdom of our bodies. There's also so much to do, right? There's so much to do with building and maintaining a business. Like we can look at, you know, the programs that we hold, we can look at the fricking accounting, the taxes, the bookkeeping, the marketing, the, the, all of it. Right? And in order for us to do this work and to do it well, we have to be well-taken care of because I have definitely spent many, many hours losing myself in the work. So much that I lose myself. And sacrifice what should be the non-negotiable. I've done it, still do it sometimes, but have to work actively and intentionally to be aware of that so that I can make informed decisions about how I am moving in my life. I think, uh, I think a lot about the powerful space holding that we are able to do as this work was founded in partnership with Soul Development, a powerful band of musicians. They are this sound, they have this soundtrack to this movement of healing, of liberation, of freedom. We've been able to do this work so powerfully in collaboration with the song remedy. And I'm thinking about some of the things, the challenges that I've been navigating with my family right now, and I'm just feeling really blessed and highly favored as family can be very hard and difficult. And though we are holding ourselves in this process, my family and I, we’re going through some times right now. I went to a sound bath that was hosted by one of our founders, our founding artist, Brittany Tanner, who started the song remedy, and she sings and her voice is so powerful and she sings, and then there's the vibration of the singing bowl. And she gave us a sound bath and I just bursted out into the tears. And afterwards she came to me, she said, you needed that. You needed that. So it was like, in that moment, I'm thinking about how I have my needs as an individual. As I think about how there are many times, especially when I first started working with BE-IMAGINATIVE and we were holding space, um, I was always thinking about how can I make myself as small, as small as I possibly can and minimize my needs and get myself out of the way so I can hold space for community. And that model is definitely not sustainable first, first and foremost. But it just makes me think of like, I'm very blessed to have a tribe of people who one, bring whole selves and whole families to show up in this work that this work is for all of us cuz we need it. I think about the moments that I remember showing up to an event and I was, ooh, I was hurting. Ali and I were having a moment and I just remember being held by my tribe and how, you know, so often. We're taught to compartmentalize. Like, put that on the back burner. Pull yourself up by your bootstraps and keep on pushing. Don't rest, like sleep when you die. Like, wake up. It's, it is, this is, this is the grind, you know, and I'm just, I'm like, I'm so cool off of that. I'm so, I'm good. I'm good. And I was thinking about, you know, an affirmation that my dear brother Kat, he trains, he's a powerful brother who holds space for our physical wellness. And he asked me this morning to leave myself and us with an affirmation and the affirmation is like “we are able to create profound and beautiful impact with ease”. That's the affirmation. As I, I think about that question, like, how do we take care of ourselves and build an organization?
CASEY: Yeah. You're naming so many pieces in that storytelling that you're sharing that I'm just hearing and wanting to harvest a little bit around, like showing up as whole selves. And obviously this is not just to say that question we're sitting with is a question that we're sitting with. Like, how do you build an infrastructure for organization that honors whole humans, that honors our spiritual beings. There's not like, an answer to that. You know? We're in that question.
That's what I was saying. But some of the pieces I'm hearing you name are around like affirmations, bringing whole selves willingness to bring like whole family, whole self, not compartmentalizing, resisting the dominant ideology around hustle and grind culture and all those kinds of pieces like you're naming so many of the things that you know come in when you're sitting with that question. And also just to reflect back or, or amplify and name something that you're talking about too, which is that BE has very intentionally chosen a collective model for the, for the organization, which organizations can choose all sorts of models. And that, that in and of itself to me sounds like a living into the answer of that question of like, the way to move forward organizationally that honors all of us and allows you to like have that moment and get supported and be a web and have a tribe like you're naming has been in that collective model or some of it is into living to that. And that's not always an easy thing. It's a choiceful thing. And again, it's just, there's so much, so many different elements that you're naming and wisdom in what you're naming of, what you're discovering, being both a member of the collective but also a founder of the organization and advancing it from, from that angle and being in this evolution process with the needs of the people, the needs with yourself, the needs with the organization, and how all of those things can continue to, to evolve together essentially, and leaning more into that. At least that's what I'm, I'm hearing and some of what you're sharing. Anything that feels missed in that too, or anything when you hear that where you're like, and something else that really feels important or is that some of the bigger… you know, one thing just to name for me that I think about, I feel like we even named this prior to recording, is this like the art and practice of trusting the answer that you're hearing in some of this? Like even if it might not seem like easy or where your mind wanted to go or what the linear path is or whatever that is. Like there's, there is this element of when you are going to be in the, the question and like some of the question you're answering now, it's like you have to be in the trust of the information you're receiving and moving towards that, even if that might not feel the best thing to do, so that that feels part of it too.
AYESHA: That's a huge part of it. That's big. You know? And I think about even how BE-IMAGINATIVE came into being in my life specifically. Each of us have our own connection to BE-IMAGINATIVE. And when I think about mine, I remember being so deep in my grief that I, I didn't know how I was gonna move forward, but I decided that that was none of my business, that my business was to sit in my grief and to receive the medicine that it had for me. And I remember being at my altar in my space that I had created for my twins, and I was in a deep meditation. Deep meditation. And in that meditation I saw the vision for BE-IMAGINATIVE and it scared the hell out of me. it really did. And I, I knew that I had to do it. I knew it, I knew I had to do it, but I was like, uh, first of all, I'm not qualified for this. What is y'all talking about? Y'all want me to do what now? . I'm like, yo, Uh-uh, you got me messed up. Like, I think you mean somebody else over there. Like you not talking about me. And there there are many moments like that where I feel in my being that something needs to be done or something needs to be said, but then fear can kick in. And then these narratives that probably aren't even mine, you know, that I've I, I have adopted over the years and maybe even over generations, but then I, I know that, I know that this is, this is, this is what needs to be done though I may not know the outcome of what will happen, but it's like, I think. I think about cardology and I think about what the sevens and the nines and the deck teach us . And those are highly spiritual numbers. And oftentimes when we talk about spirit, we not talk about here in the flesh. We're not talking about in the tangible. We're not talking about material, we're not talking about any of that. We talking about closing your eyes, walking by faith and not by sight and trusting that every step will be guided. You know, I think so much about the ancestors who guide us in this work. I'm like, the prayers oftentimes, like, you know, may you continue and may not only you continue, but can we be in the trust that you will guide the way that you will light the way that you will pave the way and that there will be a way made out of no way, and that that requires a lot of listening. You talk about coming into the not knowing and being honest with selves about the fact that we don't know. Ahhhh, it’s not fun sometimes.
CASEY: No. That was what you, you've given me that counsel a few times now. :ead with faith, not by sight, and I'm like, can you just gimme another one?
AYESHA: Absolutely. I feel you.
CASEY: But you can't. And that's most important. And that is, you know, living into the question, like trusting the answer and moving into it. And that being how we're holding these questions, how we're living into these questions. How there's no set answer cuz you know, not to say I hate this term, but like, moving target, it's not this, it's a moving target, it's just that like it's a listening practice. And we're in a change state, and we have to be living into it, and we have to be trusting it like you're naming and that is counsel for me that you've given me and is very important to hear you talk about too. And it's, it's a journey to be in that kind of relationship with ourselves, with the world, with the spiritual realms, all the different pieces and the trusting relationship to be cultivating to be sure. Well, again, we could talk forever. We already talked about a phase two of this at some point happening, but I'm curious if there's anything, because, also you're naming things around like ancestors and ritual and you know, the healing work that you're doing and all those kinds of things, if anything else wants to be said about that before we start to come to a close or if this has inspired or brought up for you another question or question that you're sitting with that you might wanna share out for the people listening in?
AYESHA: Yeah. I, what is coming up for me right now is just how can I be even more in the mode of receptivity, and especially as I think for myself of all the things that I need to, and all the energy that I need to put out and expel that. I think for this one, and for me especially, and if this just so happens to resonate with anybody listening, I think about how can I continue to come into the mode of receptivity and into listening to the wisdom of my body that will allow me to live even like more into my purpose. Yeah, especially as I think about– there's this book, The Secret Language of Your Body, and how each organ, each limb, each part of our body has its magic and has its wisdom on an energetic and spiritual and emotional level. For example, grief being stored in the lungs. I've been thinking a lot about that and my body as my body has been really speaking to me and my relationship with it and the world around me, and I, that's the, that's the thing that I wanna leave this conversation with. Thank you for that question.
CASEY: Yeah. I'm gonna be holding that myself. I feel like that is a key question to be holding in this moment that we're in, in the world, but also just in this current moment, at the end of this conversation. Ayesha, I love you and I'm so grateful to be in conversation with you every chance that I get to be, whether it's a silent conversation or we get to talk like we are right now, and, um, I'm excited for more conversations. Do you wanna tell folks how they can find you other than the links I might share in the show?
AYESHA: Sure thing, you can find us, BE-IMAGINATIVE at, BE-IMAGINATIVE Collective on Instagram and Facebook. You can also find me at @eshiitaughtme. That's E S H I I taught me, and yeah. Casey. It, it is always so dope to be in community with you and I just love you so very much and appreciate you. And, just especially the ways that you have reminded me that, you know, our, our organizations, our work are like their own. They're, they're themselves and they wanna become who they were meant to be, just like our children. And that's something that has really stuck with me for a very long time. And I just really, I appreciate you.
CASEY: I appreciate you. Um, yeah, BE is, uh, a wise teacher.
AYESHA: That's real.
CASEY: Okay. Well, lots of love.
AYESHA: Love you.
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CASEY: Thank you for listening to the Questions to Hold podcast. I hope you enjoyed this episode and are leaving the conversation with way more questions than answers.
I invite you to build a more meaningful relationship with yourself and the world around you through the simple yet profound act of holding questions. Visit questionstohold.com and wearebwb.com to learn more about this practice, our Questions to Hold card deck, and explore more conversations. See you there.