Questions to Hold with Casey Carroll

Unpacking Partnership: How do Agility and Partnership Coexist Together? with Marti Konstant

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Holding the question around what it means to be agile 

Join us for a conversation with Marti Konstant (she/her) exploring how agility and partnership coexist together, and the curiosities around the impacts of AI and unexpected relationships.

Marti researches how people and organizations respond and adapt to change. Why do some resist change, while others prosper? As a workplace futurist and career strategist she has uncovered the one trait that helps you and your organization flourish in today’s fast-changing environment: Agility.


She is a keynote speaker, workshop designer, AI trainer, and best-selling author on the topic of “career agility.” As a runner and mountain hiker across several continents, movement and mobility are central themes, yet there is one habit she continues to cultivate. Marti holds a pursuit of 100 rejections every year to achieve her goals.


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In this episode you’ll hear about:

  • How Marti defines “workplace agility”
  • Where writing a book and interviewing folks about their careers sparked unexpected relationships
  • How following our curiosities and related trends can impact our journeys
  • Life’s unexpected twists and rejections foster resilience
  • Digital visibility and the curiosities around AI as a thought partner

Connect with Marti:


Connect with BWB

Be sure to subscribe on Apple or Spotify, and leave us a 5-star rating + review!

Podcast Song: Holding you by Prigida
Music from Uppbeat (free for Creators!):
https://uppbeat.io/t/prigida/holding-you
License code: CELWR55ONTDIFRSS


Connect with BWB

Be sure to subscribe on Apple or Spotify, and leave us a 5-star rating + review!

Podcast Song: Holding you by Prigida
Music from Uppbeat (free for Creators!):
https://uppbeat.io/t/prigida/holding-you
License code: CELWR55ONTDIFRSS

Timestamps


Casey:  Welcome to the Questions to Hold podcast. I'm your host and BWB founder, Casey Carroll. In a world that often praises answers over questions, the act of holding a question is an act of resistance, presence, and devotion. In this podcast, I hold space for discussion at the intersection of life's biggest questions and our personal and professional worlds.


These are honest conversations with progressive leaders dedicated to questioning our institutions, igniting change, and provoking new possibilities. 


Join me for my next discussion.


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Hello all and welcome to the Questions to Hold podcast. This season, we're doing something special. We are going to be hosting a limited edition series on the questions surrounding unpacking partnership.


Cait: I'm Cait. I'm Casey's BWB partner for those who have not met me. We're super excited that we're going to be in conversation around partnership with a variety of folks and the questions central to what partnership means to them. 


Casey: So as part of the series, we're going to be interviewing a variety of people that have impacted our story, either Caitlin's individually, mine individually, or ours collectively as part of BWB, as well as people that we've met out in the world with really unique points of view around partnership and how that impacts our lives.


Cait: We're really excited that you're here. Thanks for listening. 


All right. Hello, everyone. Today, I'm excited to be joined by Marti Konstant. Marti, you are such an inspiration to me. I'm very, very excited to dive into a lot of different things today. But most specifically, we're here today to talk about partnership. And actually, when I think about partnership, from my own perspective, I think a lot about things that we've done together or things I've learned from you. So I'm looking forward to going, you know, deeper into all that for other listeners and folks to learn about. And before we dive in, I want to just tell people a little bit about you and then you can of course add on and build and we can go from there. Does that sound good?


Marti: That sounds great, Caitlin.


Cait: Okay, excellent. Well, Marti Konstant researches how people and organizations respond and adapt to change. You know, one of the questions she researches is why do some resist change while others prosper? As a workplace futurist and career strategist, she has uncovered the one trait that helps you and your organization flourish in today's fast changing environment: agility. Marti is a keynote speaker, a workshop designer, an AI trainer, and a best selling author on the topic of career agility. As a runner and mountain hiker across several continents, movement and mobility are central themes. Yet there is one habit she continues to cultivate, the pursuit of a hundred rejections every year to achieve her goals. Please join me in welcoming Marti. 


Marti: Thank you for that, Caitlin, for that generous introduction. 


Cait: Well, you have a lot of great things to talk about. And one thing that stood out to me obviously is your focus on agility. Can you talk a little bit or share a little bit about how agility and partnership potentially coexist in a world together?


Marti: Yeah, so agility, the way that I think about it is mindset agility and always being curious and ready and open to what's possible in the future and the way that I think my premise is that if you don't have an agile mindset, you're going to miss what is happening now with change and your- things are going to pass you by and you're going to wonder, you know, how could I have, um, integrated that into my life? How could I have researched it further? So that's a broader perspective on agility. How does this relate to partnerships? I think it's, no one can do it alone. If you are curious and you're interested in other people and what they're doing, and you have a generosity of spirit, it's about thinking, how can I be collaborative and work with another? You can't do it alone. Even solopreneurs today are not doing it alone. I've worked with you in the past and have run keynote events. And I know that I could not have run those events on my own, and I don't necessarily have employees, but there are a lot of partners in my life that make my success and my books and presentation successful.


Cait: Mm-Hmm. Yeah. I know, I had the pleasure of reading your book, so I'd love for you to chat about that 'cause I think something really interesting that you do is you bring in a lot of ethnographic research or research from conversations that you have with other people to help shape some of your principles and some of your points of view. And I've really loved, even when I've watched you give your, you know, one of your keynote presentations, how you've brought in perspectives of others, career journeys, and what they've, you know, steps they've taken to get to where they are. So I'd love to hear about that because I do think a lot of folks that are in our world and that listen to our podcast are often looking for new ways to partner with people, whether that's people they know or people in their industry. So I'd love to hear about your, your process of writing your book and how, how you brought that in.


Marti: Yeah. So writing my book, I... writing a book, there's different ways to write a book. You can write an opinion book and you could sit down and start writing or dictating or working with ChatGPT and authoring in a clever way. You can do it that way. And you could probably get your book done pretty quickly. Uh, the way that I saw it though is it's more interesting to me is to bring in the, in the ideas of other people that make it more real and more authentic. And so I interviewed 120 people for that book and I commissioned primary, uh, actually survey research to better understand what a career agility model would look like. And what I found in that process of interviewing people has helped me think about how people, first of all, how they inspire me, but also interviewing 120 people is a form of networking. It's finding out what makes people tick. It's finding out some of the secrets that they have to their, the challenges that they faced and the creativity just comes from all of those conversations. So if you think about knowing a lot of people and talking to a lot of people and interviewing a lot of people, just as you're doing now, you're going to eventually find ways that you could collaborate. Let's call it collaboration. Let's call it partnership. But today's word really is collaboration is that the way to build a relationship is to collaborate on a project. As you meet more people, you find opportunities to cross pollinate and to collaborate on projects where it's a winning combination for the both of you. You're not doing it alone. 


Cait: I'd be curious when you were writing book, were there any unexpected collaborations or partnerships? That came out of that, you know, obviously you had your, you prepared, you researched the people, you read some of the things they wrote before you, you know, had the conversations with them for the book. Were there any that really surprised you or that maybe took you down an even different path in the, just your work in general, maybe not just the book, but just your work in general?


Marti: Yeah, so I think about some of them that it's more in the inspiration factor. So I interviewed this, you know, this one woman, her name was Susan Oh, and, uh, she is a woman of the world and she had grown up in Canada, but had come here originally from Korea and traveled a lot with her parents before she got to Canada. And I met her in New York and Chicago and she was doing such amazing things. And I actually met her through a mutual friend that you and I both know, Andy Crestedina. I met her, I met her at a bar. And that's how I decided to interview her. So we were, three of us were sitting at a bar after a conference and what she did with her life, she, she became a news reporter. She became a financial news reporter, economic news reporter. She did this in Hong Kong. She was working on the news cycle all night long. She, she did all kinds of amazing things. But when I met her, she eventually became a CEO for an AI startup, maybe like five, six years ago after I wrote the book. So am I collaborating with her on a project? No, but I see what she's done to weave her career together. And it started out as curiosity. She actually reported on the Olympics. because of her, her capacity for language in Korea. Yeah. So that was, it was kind of interesting, but she's a very curious person that accomplished a lot. And I interviewed so many people like that in the book. Um, I'm not in business with any of them, but I've met other people along the way that I am in business with right now that I met through an interview, maybe not for the book. 


Cait: Yeah, you know, it's so interesting this just this morning, Casey and I were talking about how there's different ways to follow trends and thought leaders and, and learn more about the field that we might be working in, whether or not we want to take a page from their book or not is the choice you get to have, right? When you see what's happening in the world, you can decide, do I want to join that? Do I want to go against that? How do I want to see, fit within, you know, the bigger context of what's, what's happening? And I would be curious, since you mentioned Susan, but also Andy and others that you interviewed for the book, or that you interact with --what's your what would be a recommendation you might have for how people can stay apprised to what's going on in a certain space or with a certain group of folks experts in a way that doesn't feel overwhelming.


Marti: Well, I'd recommend it by, uh, it's somewhat strategic, so the way that I meet people. In fact, this morning I just gave a presentation to a bunch of HR leaders in Texas online, and I collaborated with another individual that I met through an AI group. So we've been collaborating and so I invited him in to collaborate on this session, it wasn't something that we devised a month ago. It was something that a couple of days ago we thought, well, he would be a nice addition because he works with AI ethics and compliance and I don't do that. So we brought that in and it became, it became like a conversation among friends, even though I've known him mostly online. And when I did a keynote speech in Kansas City, he actually came to, to see the group, you know, among 800 people and so we, we respect each other's work and now we know that we can collaborate on projects. So that happened somewhat organically in a group that we both belonged to at Next CoLabs, which is something that we've been involved with for about 3 years. So I would say number 1, go to where your curiosity takes you. Number 2, notice the trends that are happening that you're curious about. So in my case, I was very curious about the future of work because I've been doing some of that work and that's how I got involved in things. So that's the first part of it. I call it, you know, challenging your assumptions about what you know, notice what is around you and then be willing to take action on it. So that was a very organic relationship development, but I call some of this strategic volunteering. You know, I do this on boards. I do this-- I run the Future of Work series at an organization. And so it's in the spirit of volunteerism and helping and then meeting other people, meeting other professionals. I don't set out, I don't have a list of people ahead of time. I'm going to meet so and so. I actually bump into them metaphorically online. And we talk and we set up a calendared event and see if there's a fit for for working on anything or in this in some cases it's referrals. I refer someone in to an opportunity that I wouldn't be suitable for. So there's a referral network that goes on as well. When you're volunteering, because you trust these people, it's all about the trust. It's very relational and so much less transactional. I don't believe in networking for networking sake. I like to have fun when I'm meeting people. 


Cait: Yeah, I, obviously in your intro, we talked about how you're a runner and a mountain hiker. I'm curious, do you ever meet people doing those things or in, you know, I don't know if it's like you've done a race and you met someone else who's done that same race, or does that-- bringing-- cause I think a lot of times, you know, when we talk about going to networking events and things, it can feel really intimidating. And also, not fun, but I'm curious if you ever lead with some of the, the interests or the values that you hold and how that's come into play in some of the partnerships you have. 


Marti: Yeah, I mean, I do, when you're more vulnerable and you let people know that you're, Just an average person and you've failed in the past, they tend to like you a little bit more. They relate to a little bit more and you know, some of the story, you know, I often share the story of my interest in agility came from when I was totally immobilized at the age of 12 and a half with a back brace that I wore for three and a half years during a very pivotal time in one's life where you don't really want to stand out with all of that hardware on your back and your, you know, all the way down to your hips. You don't want that. And I feel as though that sharing that kind of experience with another and sharing how I thought about that and how there were so many things that were out of my control at the ages of 12 and 13 and 14 and 15, and I was able to take some of those isolating experiences. and work with the people that I did know and deal with the mean girls, deal with all that. It wasn't, it wasn't all roses. It was tough, but getting through all that. And I share that with people because whether it's, you know, a loss of a parent, a loss of a child, whatever it is in your life, that is a problem, when you can share that and say that, you know, I'm a person too, that has overcome a deficit. And I was able to, um, and that's why I cherish mobility. That's why I run. That's why I hike. And so when, when that is shared about me in a conference, people do come up and say, Oh, tell me about that mountain hiking. Where have you gone? Um, I was on a, I'm on a board, a couple of boards, and there's a person that was on the board that said, Oh, I used to run track and field in college and tell me what races you ran. And, you know, just, you know, I didn't run in, in college, but they had distances that I knew all about. And it's, it's a commonality now. And it's something that I think of, you know, some people might get together and talk about, uh, the sports as we did recently, a few weeks ago at the Super Bowl, all that kind of thing. But I'm more likely to talk about the kind of sports that I do that other people might do. 


Cait: Would that have anything to do with your 100 rejections every year? Because that is something I also wanted to bring up from your intro, that you're on a pursuit of 100 rejections every year to get to your goal. And I'd be curious to hear more about that, and as I'm sure the listeners are as well. 


Marti: Well, this was inspired by a New York writer. This New York writer wanted to submit her stories to publications and she was just getting all these rejections. A lot of it's done through email and it could be text, whatever it is. And it was her idea that if I get 100 rejections, I'm probably going to have to do outreach for 500 or more. So to get 100 rejections, you could have to reach out a thousand times. I'm happy to say that while I do achieve some of my goals, I've never been able to get 100 rejections because the amount that I would have to have on the front end to get 100 rejections would be pretty large, but it's a goal, um, I set and it's a, um, it's a philosophy that if you want to attain something, you're-- say, so if you want to speak at a conference or you want to be on a particular project, maybe in the workplace, you just ask for it and try to navigate for it and network artfully into that opportunity. And if you get rejected, it's like, I check it on the list and put the checkmark there, and it's like one less thing, one less thing to worry about for me. And it's a gamification process for me that makes this process of wanting to do what I do more fun. I want to fill my calendar with speaking engagements and training and helping people dip their toe into this world of AI integration into their work life. And it's hard. And I want to help them with that. 


Cait: That's so interesting. When you were talking about that, it reminds me of a different piece of advice I got once that was about the goal of getting more no's than yes's and how that can be really, really beneficial to your business growth, in a sense. And is there something you could share about, you know, your experience of getting the rejection? Because obviously it's hard when you put a lot of work, or you put your, you know, your soul and your energy and your spirit into something that you're really excited about, and then it comes back as a no. Like, how have you dealt with some of that rejection? 


Marti: Well, I mean, I've worked at an agency in my life, a creative agency, and um, we well knew what it felt like to get rejected after spending 100 or 50 hours on a proposal, which you should never spend 50 hours on a proposal, by the way. But we did because we wanted the work and they were big companies. And so that rejection was, you know, it was an essential part of growth. And we had to reconcile some of that to that, you know, some of it was politics in play. And some of it was another group or another person was just better than us. You know, so, it's, it's an important part of it and it's disappointing because it affects the financial solvency of the organization that you work for when you work for a small agency. Now, on a personal level, I feel less rejected if I miss out on something, even to the point where, you know, people are really interested and we're going back and forth and they're saying, well, we would really like this. Well, how much would you charge for it? To which I usually say, You know, do you have a budget? How much have you paid for this in the past? You know, so you go through that sort of thing, and when you get a no, yes, it is disappointing, but I, I end up just not taking that personal. What I do take personal is knowing that the work that you did, that you delivered on, and this has happened to me, it's happened to everybody, the work that you did didn't quite measure up to the expectations of the client. That's a gut punch. And that really hurts. Because you put everything into it. And in that case, you might put in 50 to 100 hours into it. And if it doesn't meet the expectations of the client, you have to hopefully have a client that's willing to share the feedback with you. So that you can learn and sometimes there's certain things you can learn from and other things you just have to take as Oh, it was missed the mark and we have to move on. But I'm a learner. So I'm always trying to figure out what could I have done better. So that hurts the most. And then, of course, if you ever get criticized in public on a social channel or something like that. That really hasn't happened to me, but I know it's happened a lot when you get more famous and you get more successful and you're more well known.


Cait: Yeah, when you open yourself up to different swaths of people. Yeah, like it's the larger you become, the, I think that the stakes for that go up higher and higher. I am wondering, in terms of, because you've talked a little bit about AI, and you've talked a little bit about, you know, digital platforms. What have for you, and also one other thing you talked about was some of the groups you're part of in terms of partnership, what are the, where all those places meet? AI, the companies that you've partnered with, or organizations, the digital and social platforms where you're present and active, like what has been the, the single most effective thing for you and your work and your visibility at the intersection of all those places?


Marti: If you say it's at the intersection, it's more analogous to the marketing mix where your success in a marketing program or sales has to do with a combination of 10 things. It's not one thing that does it, but I would say that in the end, it's really important that you as an individual are able to pull that relationship together. So it is about the personal relationship. So I'm, I'm a, uh, a big believer in, inbound marketing. I mean, I used to run marketing for organizations, so I'm a big believer in that, but I also know at this point that there's a limit to the amount of time that you have to create content for yourself, so I may use AI, but I am not going to use AI to cut and paste content and just paper the, you know, the halls of LinkedIn with uninteresting content. So I think to your point, it is at the intersection, but at the heart of it, you can do all you want, but if you're not able to put yourself out there and meet people, and in my case, I'll volunteer to facilitate a, a panel. You know, for people, I interviewed them in advance. I get to know them, on a, personal and professional level. And then my questions make a whole lot more sense. And then when I am working in a professional environment, people know me in that way. Um, and that has been really useful for, you know, for business generation. And, and does LinkedIn help? Yes. I mean, I, I did a very large scale project for a major corporation and, uh, the person was noticing a lot of stuff I was doing on LinkedIn, but I knew him through another group, you know, so it is about the networking and cultivating that network. It's always about the network. 


Cait: Yeah. And it sounds like you've become a known entity in a lot of the communities because you are active and you are sharing your perspective and not only are you wanting to get projects and speaking opportunities, but you're also willing to do some things on a volunteer basis to further the industry or help people learn or kind of pass along some of the things that I'm sure people have given to you in your career, you know, some of the mentors you've had have probably donated some of their time to you and now you're in turn passing it along to others.


Marti: They have. I mean, for example, I mentioned the name, um, Andy earlier, you know, he, he spoke at my first marketing hackathon, I don't know, 12, 15 years ago. And then you, then you work on something else. And there's the generosity of like, Oh yeah, I'll help you with your marketing hackathon. And there were other people that helped with it at that time as well. You know, while we're not friends that hang out on a Friday and Saturday night, I feel like we're friends over a long period of time. Some of these people I've known 10 and 20 years and I end up meeting them and they'll say, I know you. And we were at the business woman's luncheon and I don't even know what year it was, but it's, it's just, it's fun. It's like, it's a very small community and it just, it makes it a whole lot more fun. And less cumbersome to think about it is, Oh my gosh, I've got to go to networking. I like, I do not like walking into a networking event where I don't know anybody. 


Cait: Well, this has been so enlightening and amazing. And I want to say, I have had the experience of a lot of mentorship from you over the years and the different stages of my career. And, you know, even when I was graduating college and trying to figure out what to do, where I went and having a partnership with you in that way that then became a client relationship at one point. And now we share learnings and different things along the way is so important to me. So thank you for that. And I would wonder, one question I'd love to kind of leave this with is, who's somebody in your life that, and it doesn't have to be a business relationship necessarily, but who's someone in your life that you feel like has gifted you with, um, some of the spirit that you bring into your work?


Marti: There's a couple now, uh, but if I have to think about like the brace was for me at an early age, I think looking at my aunt, Seal, who was an inventor and a food chemist for a major food company and invented the formula, the very first formulation for ready whip. So I grew up with this person that I thought that everybody had someone like this in their life. So I just thought that everything was possible. She has eight patents to her name. I did not have any, any patents to my name, but she has eight patents to her name, uh, no longer alive, but I am forever-- one of the premises I say in my book is learn from dead people, you know, she's no longer alive, but we learned so much, you know, Abraham Lincoln, whatever these people are that have come before us, I continue to derive a lot of enthusiasm and creativity and persistence. When I think about her raw persistence in the face of so much discrimination in the time that she was developing products, so she pretty much a superhero. And if I'm allowed to say, reflect back on something you said just a few minutes ago about right after college, can I go there?


Cait: Yeah, of course. Totally. 


Marti: So I was thinking about this partnership. When you graduated, you said, well, what are some things? And I said, well, there's different organizations against strategic volunteering. And I remember specifically looking up, I go, what about PRSA Public Relations Society of America? I said, I know they have meetings all the time and I know that you are just outta college. Nobody has a lot of money outta college. Just go up there and volunteer. Just even go in person. You don't even have to like. Make these arrangements ahead of time, and just say, I will help take tickets at the door. And, and you did, if I recall correctly, you did make some contacts. Did they lead to what you're doing now? Maybe not, but it gave you a visibility into what's possible in a couple part time internships. And things like that. So it is about partnering and, and mentor-- mentorship, I guess it's-- mentor is another type of partnership. 


Cait: Yeah, no, I definitely remember those days and it is, you know, while I'm not the most avid social media user, I do like LinkedIn for that reason, where connections that you maybe made 10 years ago can resurface and how, you always find in instances like that is. Not a lot of people are doing that. Not a lot of people are showing up at the door and saying, Hey, can I help take tickets? So when you do show up, the answer is usually, Sure, come over here. This is how you do it. This is what we need. So I like that idea of volunteerism or showing up in the places, literally showing up in the places that you want to be included, where you want to build communities. So, um, I had totally forgotten about that, but I did recently link back with somebody from that time of my life through LinkedIn, it was a really fun kind of trip down memory lane, but also, you know, we talked about ways we could even work together today. So you never know those connections, I think are very important.


Marti: Yeah. I mean, it's more fun to do things together. You know, these collaborative tools that we have, mural boards or whatever, when we're all collaborating on one project at the same time, five or six of us real time, it's a little overwhelming if you haven't used the tools, but when you're into it, you can get a lot more done. It's the content that I delivered this morning at my event. I wouldn't have that content if I weren't collaborating with at least a dozen other people on a weekly basis and learning from what they know, because they know more and different than I know. That is the truest partnership of all kind is what it doesn't even feel like partnership. It just feels like a gathering of people who are sharing their ideas. 


Cait: Yeah, that's a great perspective. Is there anything you'd want to leave the listeners with? Obviously in the show notes, we're going to drop in links to all the channels where people can connect with you, the link to your book. And is there anything else you want to leave people with? Whether that's a question or a thought about partnership, anything you'd want to close with.


Marti: I do. The, we didn't really talk about it, but I will leave it and we'll leave it as a question to be continued is that I have been experimenting with AI as a tool for not just productivity, but for just immense amounts of creativity and fun. And I think AI if used as a thought partner is going to result in some of the most amazing accomplishments and creativity in the next few years. And that's a whole conversation in it, in itself, whether it's conversational AI that you use on something like the project that Reid Hoffman is working on right now with inflection AI. It's, it's a conversational AI and it's like a personal assistant, right, talking and it's taking all of that stuff and having a conversation with you and adding to what you know, and it's doing it in a conversational way so that's a thought partner and then also just using it as a thought partner in all the different ways that you can to generate ideas and outlines and content. So I, I'm pretty much of a content person, content development person and I use AI. So I think the thought partner, a piece of it and then to share that with other humans to get the reaction, you know, so just you and AI with no other reaction. It's about getting the reactions from other people so that we could ultimately give feedback on where you're going. So AI as a thought partner and teaming up with collaborators as thought partners as well. 


Cait: Absolutely. Well, I really appreciate that. And I definitely invite and encourage people to subscribe to your newsletter because I've gotten a ton of value from that, especially as it relates to some of the nuances of what you're sharing about AI as a thought partner. I know you talk a lot about that when you send your weekly newsletter. So thank you for doing that every week. I think you are on your 200th, 240th? How many newsletters have you written? 


Marti: 280 or 279, something like that. 


Cait: Yeah. So there's a lot of great content in there. And, um, thank you again for joining me for today's conversation on our Questions to Hold podcast. And yeah, I just appreciate all the work you're doing. 


Marti: I admire your work and appreciate the opportunity. And I hope that your guests will derive some benefit from our conversation. 


Cait: Thanks so much. 



Casey: Thank you for listening to the Questions to Hold podcast. I hope you enjoyed this episode and are leaving the conversation with way more questions than answers.


I invite you to build a more meaningful relationship with yourself and the world around you through the simple yet profound act of holding questions. Visit questionstohold.com and wearebwb.com to learn more about this practice, our Questions to Hold card deck, and explore more conversations. See you there.