Unpacking Partnership: Exploring the Enneagram with Maren Gauldin

Join us for a conversation with Maren Gauldin (she/her), where we explore the Enneagram and how it can be used to understand ourselves, build relationships with others, develop deeper partnerships, and enhance team dynamics.

Maren Gauldin is an organizational development consultant, a certified Enneagram coach, a parent, a partner, an advocate, and a community-tender who envisions a world where all are able to discover and fulfill the depths of their potential. Maren leads Seeds to Wholeness, an organizational development consultancy dedicated to unlocking the potential of purpose-driven individuals and businesses. Maren offers Enneagram-based coaching for individuals, couples and teams, along with team-building workshops and organizational development consulting to small businesses and organizations. She is a devoted coach, a tenacious strategist and the co-founder of a non-profit that supports trans children.

In this episode you’ll hear about:

• The fundamentals of the Enneagram
• How the Enneagram can be leveraged for your personal and professional development
• What each Enneagram type means, and how we all have all of these types inside of us 
• How the Enneagram helps us be more strategic in business and community building
• Why Casey and Caitlin hired an Enneagram coach (Maren!) to deepen their partnership and the impacts it’s had in BWB

Social Handles: 

• Maren’s LinkedIn
• Maren’s website

Connect with BWB

• wearebwb.com
• @we.are.bwb
• Casey LinkedIN
• Cait LinkedIN
• BWB Linkedin

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Podcast Song: Holding you by Prigida
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Transcript

Casey:  Welcome to the Questions to Hold podcast. I'm your host and BWB founder, Casey Carroll. In a world that often praises answers over questions, the act of holding a question is an act of resistance, presence, and devotion. In this podcast, I hold space for discussion at the intersection of life's biggest questions and our personal and professional worlds.

These are honest conversations with progressive leaders dedicated to questioning our institutions, igniting change, and provoking new possibilities. 

Join me for my next discussion.

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Hello all and welcome to the Questions to Hold podcast. This season, we're doing something special. We are going to be hosting a limited edition series on the questions surrounding unpacking partnership.

Cait: I'm Cait. I'm Casey's BWB partner for those who have not met me. We're super excited that we're going to be in conversation around partnership with a variety of folks and the questions central to what partnership means to them.

Casey: So as part of the series, we're going to be interviewing a variety of people that have impacted our story, either Caitlin's individually, mine individually, or ours collectively as part of BWB, as well as people that we've met out in the world with really unique points of view around partnership and how that impacts our lives.

Cait: We're really excited that you're here. Thanks for listening.

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Casey: Hello, everyone, and welcome to the Questions to Hold podcast, our special edition series on unpacking partnership. Today, Caitlin and I are so excited to be joined by Maren Gauldin, who we have known through many different weavings in our life. I got to meet Maren when I was living out in California and we did some transformational leadership work out together. We both carried babies together at the same time and built a deep sisterhood and friendship and companionship. And then have over time in our entrepreneurial journeys together, kind of continued to develop and understand how to work together as colleagues, collaborators, and think about how the work that she does in leadership and organizational development and Enneagram really comes in and works with what BWB is here to do. So more on that in this episode, and I'll kick it over to you, Maren, in a second to introduce yourself. But I did want to just say and speak to Maren is also, Caitlin and I, our own Ennegram-- we've been really lucky over this last year to explore leadership, entrepreneurship, our own identities and personalities, our traits, what works for us and all of that through the lens of Enneagram with Maren's guidance. And it has been tremendously valuable for us in a variety of different ways, which we'll kind of explore and kind of go into a little bit more to have these insights into, into who we are, how we are, how we work, what motivates us. And it's really a core part of Caitlin and I's partnership and our commitment to each other and our commitment to BWB of how do we find some, um, what would be called like unique if you will, but some alternative ways to get inside and understand ourselves, our business and each other in a way that kind of keeps us growing. So! Super honored to have you Maren and to get to talk about all of those things today. So. I'll leave it over to you to tell the folks and the listeners who you are and how you got here. 

Maren: Thank you so much, Casey and Caitlin. I'm so happy to be here with you and so grateful for the many years of exploring and working together. Um, and I'm excited to join you here today as You know, the current iteration of my work in the world includes a method of coaching and organizational development that's strongly informed by the Enneagram. So I do coaching and I do team building and I work with organizations to help bring in a soul oriented approach and a more, a more human oriented approach to our work in the world. So I'm so happy to get to do this work with you. 

Cait: And I'll just say meeting Maren, it felt like I've known you forever. When I first met you in person, we'd already been doing a lot of zooming for a year or two. You just have such a great way of helping people like center and get grounded and focused. And the way that we've been able to jump into like learning about the Enneagram as a tool in general, but also our own styles and then Casey and me as partners has been just really, really fun. And I have to say, I've been looking forward to this conversation for a long time. So thanks for joining us, Maren. One thing that I think would be helpful for our listeners, especially for folks who maybe. Like, haven't heard of the Enneagram or maybe they've done an assessment but never really dived in too deep. Do you want to just give a little bit of the definition or kind of overview about what it is and how you specifically use it in the work that you do? 

Maren: Yes, I'd be really happy to. The Enneagram is a, we could put it in the category of personality typing system, although some people have assumptions about what that means, but the Enneagram really works with fundamental human archetypes. And the Enneagram has some very cool ancient roots. It uses a symbol and it really puts together nine essential human tendencies, human energy, or types. There are so many thinkers and so many writers and people doing really great work in the Enneagram. It really started to come together as a system in about the 1920s, but it built on ancient roots in the Kabbalah. And there's Christian and Sufi influences. So it has a very kind of soulful orientation, but it is so applicable to just humanity across the board. And so it's been really growing in the personal development space for the last probably 20 to 30 years. And I think as the business world is evolving to allow in more humanity, um, and people are really looking to bring more of themselves into that space. The Enneagram is really finding more of a home in the business world and in the organizational world. And that's really where the transition happened for me as well. I've been studying the Enneagram personally for about 15 years. Um, I've had a lot of fun with it. I've learned so much about myself. I apply it to all of my relationships in my work, and it's been very exciting for me to see the business space open and realize the applicability of this understanding. I, the basic overview of the, of the Enneagram is that, like I said, there are nine basic energies, nine basic types. My perspective in the system that I work in is that everybody has some of every type. Um, and so it really is not a tool that's designed to pigeonhole or constrain people, but it's really designed to help elucidate some of the unquestioned, typically, and, and almost the water that we swim in as people, um, our basic orientation to the world. And what I find-- what's unique about the Enneagram is it looks less at external behavior and more as a, more at internal motivation. So each type has a very deep core, often unseen motivation that is driving all of us and understanding that core type can give you a lot more freedom and understanding both of yourself and of the people around you. And it can also be really liberatory to understand how the other types or energies work in you as well because you know, they say that the, the growth path in the Enneagram is to start with understanding your main type, but then actually grow and build skills of the other types so that we really become more holistic and well rounded while gaining more understanding of our uniqueness along the way. And I mean, I could just, I could name, the nine types, um, although we won't go into detail in each of them. And I'll also say different systems have different names for them. And I, I will say some people, I think have a immediate reaction to what the name of the type may be. And for some, when they've typed themselves, that can be a little confronting, but I think it is helpful to understand the basic energy. So we can start with type number one, which is the strict perfectionist. So their orientation is to really, um, they have a great sense of judgment for what is correct, what is good and what is right. The twos are the compassionate helpers and they have an orientation towards serving and supporting others. The type three is the competitive achiever, so they have an orientation towards achieving and making really great things happen in the world. The type four is the intense creative. They're the artist type. They tend to be very good at understanding their own emotions and creating from that. The fives are the quiet specialist. Um, sometimes they're also called the investigators. They tend to be really interested in understanding the world. They love to dig into data. They are often a little bit more set back and take in the world first. They want to understand first before they engage. The type six are called the loyal skeptics or the loyalists, and they are scanning for danger, so they're exceptional at risk assessment, and they also are very loyal in their relationships. The type sevens are the enthusiastic visionaries. We'll talk a little bit more about the Type 7 later in this call, um, I'm sure. And the 7s are really good at ideas and creative thinking. They also want to keep things interesting and keep things changing, so they can be a lot of fun and have a really positive perspective. The 8s are called Active Controllers, and those types have a orientation towards order, um, sometimes they can also be called guardians because they can be very protective and they have very strong energy. So they're usually very direct and they like to be really honest. They're a no BS type, um, which can be an incredible gift. And then the nines are the adaptive peacemakers. And those types are really oriented towards harmony. They really care about the feeling of peace within a group. Um, and so they do a really good job of taking care of, um, group cohesion that way. So that's an overview of the basic types. 

Casey: Yeah, it's helpful. I just want to name too because as part of our process with Maren has been to do some of our individual readings and to understanding our own types, Caitlin and I differently before we did some of the partnership work and kind of readings together through the lens of partnership and the business. But I want to just underscore one of the pieces because it was important for me and reading and understanding my own report when it came back, which is that there's a way I think that I could have easily like over identified with my primary type, which was a seven, and that I could have been like, Oh, I'm so I'm so a seven, which is true. I am. And yet I think I want to underscore what you said of like, there's a little bit of all of the types into us because that was really helpful for it to not like cloud overly cloud my identity of like, Oh, I'm totally a seven. And then I kind of feel categorized as like that, a caricature of that, of like the enthusiastic visionary of like, Oh yeah, so now I'm just the, that's the role I play in the room when it's like, yeah, but I also have all those other types too in some form and so I can, I can actually be very intentional with how I start to relate to them, understand those things, how they're working in me. So that felt like an important piece of that initial Enneagram foundation work for me and then reading my own report and needing to come back over and over again of like, I don't have to play that role. I'm not that one type. It is more dominant in my report, but there, there's also all the other pieces. So I appreciate you naming that in here too. 

Maren: Yeah. And I could add another layer backing up just in terms of the report, which is that, you know, many people can can and do type themselves through the Enneagram. There's many free tests online. There's often self assessments in books, and that can be a great place to start to explore. And as you said, sometimes it can be hard for people to really get into the deeper root. I'm- I think this is also true as people get older and in life and gain. additional skills and strengths, especially if you're the type of person who's growing and you build around your, the things that are challenging. And so it can be a little bit hard, you know, none of the assessments, typically I, I meet very few people who read it and are like, Oh, this exactly gets me to a T. They're like, well, I do get it, but I also have these other parts. And I think that both are true. It's really valuable to get your core tight because often it goes to the very root, especially when things are the most challenging, like the persistent patterns over time are often connected to our main type, but understanding the influences of the different energies that you might've come in with, or you might have developed over time can be so helpful for it feeling kind of sa- a more satisfying perception. And so, to speak to the report specifically, I have a certification through Integrative Enneagram, which is one of several organizations out there doing Enneagram work, and I really, really like and trust their assessment. They have a 95 percent accuracy, and I find that most people, it really does land. Often if it doesn't, people have like taken the assessment, you know, standing in line at the grocery store or something. That's not exclusively true, but it's, you know, It really seems to do a good job. It's a adaptive assessment. So as you go through, it continues to refine to help people really land. And you might have a couple of really high main types. And this assessment really helps tease apart which one is the actual stronger one. And ultimately I'll say every person, the only people who can really figure out their own assessment is or their own type is yourself. Um, no coach, nobody else can ever tell you exactly what it is, but we can point to, we can help you unpack patterns. We can help you widen your perspective so that you have the best chance of getting the most accurate understanding. 

Cait: When we did this at our last retreat with Maren, one of the things that sticks out to me is, you put down on the floor all the different numbers and we as a group walked together to each number and sort of like took on that, you know, type in a sense where you would give us the, the overview and talk about some of the traits and some of the, like where they go when they're most integrated, which I know you'll talk a little bit about, but it was really helpful because not only did we do that, but then as a group, you would say like, okay, go to your, your main number. And we would all, you know, separate and go to our numbers and you could look around the room and see where people were. And I think for me, that really sticks out whenever I think about the Enneagram because yes, it's about my own type, but it's also about how I then in relation to others, like see the world's behave in the world function act. And it became more like, you know, clear to me that, Oh, I see that so and so is over there and there are two. So when I, my seven and that two interact, like where are we coming from and what are we bringing to that relationship? So I think this idea of like understandings ourselves, and then also understanding ourselves in relation to the people that we're around and who we're working with, and who we spend time with is just absolutely fascinating. 

Maren: Yeah, I think that's such a good point. And I'd say I spent the first at least five years of my relationship with the Enneagram only thinking about my own type, like not even necessarily knowing what the other types were. Um, it really seemed like the, the most valuable thing I could do at the time was focus on that type. But over time, the more I've expanded my knowledge of the system overall, I feel like it's equally, if not even more valuable in many ways to understand all of the types and to see where the most important relationships in my life, what types those are, to have it as- you know, I'm very careful and cautious as I'm interacting in the world if I don't know somebody's type, but I will consider it, you know, and I'll, I'll keep it lightly. Like, I wonder if that person is a blank, and that will help me understand what might show up and not interpret it just through my lens, but actually understand the behavior that may come from a person with that type, what might be happening for them inside. And it becomes such an incredible tool for working with all kinds of people, for understanding myself and how, how I impact others as well. So there is something about understanding the Enneagram as a whole. And the Enneagram really does have a very interesting- Ennea is eight and gram is, you know, is image or basically construct. And so if you see a visual of the Enneagram, there's a very specific diagram that, that puts all of the types in a certain relationship with one another. And as you described, there's also ways that types will relate to one another across the Enneagram. And so that there's like a sensory embodied understanding of the Enneagram that I have found to be one of the most valuable things. I mean, I have a background in, in movement and embodiment and the application for me with the Enneagram releases so much additional value. 

Casey: Yeah, to that point, at the retreat as Caitlin's naming, and when we were all able to like get up and be in that embodied kind of movement practice with the Enneagram in that way too, and maybe it's too early to bring it into this call, but I found two things really interesting about this. One is that where Caitlin and I were. And then the rest of our clients were all in a particular type as their main type and our main type too. So that was like really helpful for us individually understanding ourselves and understanding BWB and then understanding who we and how and why we're most of service in some of the other kind of like types and balancings and being in relations with, with those. Um, it was just like- and of course then everybody had different, subtypes and everybody moved and there was a lot of variation in there. It's not like it was a sharp contrast, but it was interesting to see that initially of, like, the main types and Caitlin and I are sevens. And then there was a lot of folks in another type together. And it's like, okay, so I can have that understanding and understand why, like, my ideas and my enthusiastic visionary piece is so helpful for people who fall into the twos as their main type and why we work so well together and balance out some of that vision. And then the other piece I found, and that's, this is like another layer of the Enneagram that I think is kind of like 2. 0 or like, as you grow into it a little bit more was what, and Maren, you can talk about this a little bit more, but that path to integration, because as a seven, I have another type that is my path to kind of a more integration, like a more integrated Enneagram essentially, but a more integrated self. And when I recognized what that path to integration was, I was like, Oh, that makes sense. I need more of that in my system to be able to like be have like optimal function and all these other ways instead of kind of like hyper being a seven one hundred percent all the time all the time you know it's like we're the kind of dynamic of that path to integration and being in that embodied space and being able to see it. And like visualize it and then like kind of bring that energy into my body was a way to be with it that's much different than like reading an re- report or doing a self assessment online. I don't think I would have really understood it in the same way as I was able to in that room with the group.

Maren: Yes, and I think that's what's cool. I think some people can have resistance to these kind of typing systems because it can feel like it, it pigeonholes your, well, what am I going to do with that? You know, like if this is just all I am, but what I love about the Enneagram is naturally built in is pathways towards growth and kind of almost like hyper customized. Like if you focused on building like the energy and the skills of this type, it will liberate more energy freedom choice for you in your main type. So none of it is actually restrictive or limiting. It's actually evocative of like, this is the place you're starting and here's the growth path like laid right out for you.

Casey: Can you talk a little bit about why and you you just named it in your last share too about how you spent x amount of years basically looking at your own types and understanding them but like for Caitlin and I when you've kind of guided us into this work and understanding, you know, we started individual, separate me and her separated, and like doing some of this work with you one on one and then the the retreat experience had its own dimension but then you've kind of like strategically moved us into a relationship with it through like a partnership aka couples report, Caitlin, yes and I got to do a couple's report but then like then folding it into of how does that intersect with like our entrepreneurship and our clients and like kind of it's like expanded out from there so I would love to just hear a little more about kind of the reason behind or the strategy behind that build.

Maren: Yes, absolutely. Well, you know, as, when we did our, our in person workshop together, neither of you had actually done the assessment through the system that I use. And so we started there to, you know, this, the assessment I use not only gives you your main type, which we had narrowed down pretty closely for both of you, you both understand yourselves well, have a lot of self awareness and you do have strong energy and other types. So you weren't a hundred percent sure. So starting with that assessment not only gives me an understanding and you an understanding of your main type, but the report I use also gives a subtype, which is they describe it as an instinct that each of us either has an instinct towards self preservation, towards one on one connection, or towards group orientation, and each of those flavors also gives you a slightly different experience, which is why even though, you know, Caitlin, Casey, you're both sevens, you and actually, interestingly, for the two of you, you both have the same subtype. So you can see like the, the tendencies. However, if you meet other sevens in the world, you're going to experience those subtypes. can, can explain a lot of differences between people who have the same type. And then in addition to that, the system I look at also breaks down a top type in both a head, a heart, and a body orientation. So I won't go into full details of that, but it basically gives you like a, a triangle of your strongest three types in a way. And so those added layers can bring so much more insight and what I found so interesting between the two of you is that you have two of the same top three types. Um, and actually your numbers on the third type were pretty close as well. So you have a, one of the strongest alignments I've seen in partnership, which was very cool because what it helped is explain for each of you, both the places that there's almost so much alignment that it. Like the places where you see difference are actually a lot smaller probably than they feel to you in the moment because, so you, you work so well together. And so having that individual understanding, when we can bring together your shared understanding, you know, of who you are together, we can both look at you know, what does a dynamic happen between two people who are of these types, whether they're different or the same, it could help bring almost like turning on a light on into a way that things operate that you probably like you can just take for granted when things are operating so well, and so it can give you like a more strategic insight into that collaboration together. Like, how does that really work for us? And what does it mean if we're both these types in relationship to our clients or the outside world? So the partnership element, which for in your all's case, we, we did individual reports to begin an individual coaching session so that you could each get a strong foundation in your own type. And then we did a couple's report, which can be adapted, you know, it's really designed for romantic partners so there's a couple sections that aren't relevant for your relationship, but It has some really great overview of the dynamics that can happen in multiple areas of life, like multiple types of decision making and approach. And then we, we got on the phone together to really break down what is the value of the, of those insights for you? What does the couple breakdown me or the partnership breakdown look like for you as a business? Like, what does it say about what BWB is and who each of you are in it? And then how does that added insight of- it's almost building BWB's identity, like a stronger sense of identity, which then informs how do we understand how we might be perceived and understood by our clients. It's like that added full 360 understanding of the Enneagram overall. And I think that progression is essential because if you don't have a foundation in your own type, you really can't have a foundation in understanding your like partner's type or types of other people that you might work with. And some types might want to do that because they're more oriented towards other people. So like a two might be really excited to understand more other people's types, but you really have to start with your own first. 

Cait: What I loved about it too, is that it wasn't just this one off like, Oh, great. We have all these insights and they're going to live over here. Every Wednesday, Casey and I do a mini planning session which we call Creative Wednesdays. And this is just a way that we keep a focus on business growth and how we, like, you know, if we're working on a retreat, for example, we might spend that time coming up with ideas for activities at the retreat. Or right now, we're working on doing some revised copy for our website. And when, after we did that session with you, um, with some of the learnings about the business identity and, Some of the things that are inherent with both of us as sevens, like how we behave, how we communicate, how we see the world, we were realizing, you know, okay, if, if we can better articulate that and communicate that when we're meeting new clients or when we're working with existing clients and, you know, not that we're trying to turn everyone into sevens, but if we can explain how some of these pieces can help elevate the work we're doing or even just simple things like, we have a lot of ideas, we'd love to share them. Is there a way that you like to absorb information? We don't want to firehose ideas at you unless you're interested in a firehose of ideas. Otherwise, we can pick three great ones and write them up for you and send a video recording. Like, almost even giving people options by acknowledging our type and how we, you know, the things that people come to us to do, but how can we better package it up or convey or communicate it so that it's It's beneficial to the folks receiving it. So that was something we talked a lot about after we did that session is like, how can we take a lot of this and weave it in so that, you know, again, it's like the rising tide lifts all boats.

Maren: Yeah, I, I love that description. Uh, and I think that that's such a great example of what can happen through like the applied understanding of the Enneagram for each of us individually and in our businesses, is that added insight of, you know, sometimes I like to describe it as almost a bias towards, like a type will give you a bias towards, so as a seven, there's a bias towards ideas and possibility and potential and understanding like, you know, for us, that's very comfortable and that's easy. And that's actually why we're so good at what we do. And other types may not be as, it may not be as easy for them to accept those ideas. So just under, it's almost like, how do we build a translation path? And, and when we understand our own bias, rather than, oh, why doesn't, you know, they're great ideas. Why doesn't this person understand, you know, that added understanding can give us that extra layer of where, then we really get to use the gifts of our type. You know, one of the things that doesn't happen as much with sevens but can happen with other types is a bit of like, oh, I don't want to be that type. I don't like that, you know, I don't like that. I'm a two that I'm just feel like I have to help everybody or don't like that I'm an eight and like they're calling me controlling. I don't like that. I've been called controlling. And when we can understand like, oh, there are true, true gifts, or maybe some sevens would have a reaction to like, people tell me I'm flighty or I have, I keep having, you know, I can't stick to something. When we get those kinds of feedback messages over our lives, we can start to try to hide or feel shame about those, you know, gifts and then we kind of contort and they come out in a way that actually doesn't serve us. And so I find the most liberating part of the Enneagram is like deep acceptance and deep celebration of who we are. And then we can leverage our gifts really well because we're not trying to hide them. Or, you know, I've heard it described kind of like a beach ball you're trying to keep underwater. Like, no, I don't want anybody to see this thing about me. It's like you, it takes so much energy to keep it down. And if you actually just let it out, it's like, Oh, this is actually who we are. This is my gift. And I think it can be incredible information in terms of making decisions about our businesses and as entrepreneurs, because if you, if you don't understand what your superpower is, or you're trying to hide one of your superpowers, you're really not going to be leveraging the highest value and energy of what you have to offer the world. 

Cait: Absolutely. It reminds me, I loved what you just said about the, like the integration path. I think that's a really cool way to think about it too. It reminds me of some of the work we do when we do our unpacking processes with new clients early on, when we're working on strategy and doing workshop series and how we bring in even like graphic facilitation tools to help people see information in new ways. But it also reminded me of like the shoulds exercise that we've done in a variety of contexts where, you know, it's when you said the thing about, you know, as a, Seven, people might say you're too flighty and have too many ideas, and people may have that down on, like, a negative list about themselves. Like, I shouldn't have so many ideas, I should focus on the one thing, I should, you know, and then when we do those, you know, again, linking it back into the Enneagram, so much of it is inherent. And it's also not just about us. It's about how others perceive us and what we're doing. So I'm not surprised. I like just related. I'm not surprised that I found Casey and she found me and that we're doing this because I think that's something that we do not just with our clients, but with each other of encouraging ourselves to, to bring forth. All those things and not, you know, when Casey comes with an idea or I come with an idea, we're like, tell me more about that. What could that look like? It's instead of that's not going to work. You know, we shouldn't be focusing on that X, Y, Z. So anyways, it brought in for me like a lot of different pieces of what we're doing. But in relation to the Enneagram, it's it makes a lot of sense. 

Casey: Yeah, I was just going to layer on to that. When Caitlin and I decided to partner in the business, I mean, we heard a lot of people saying like, that's very exciting. And there's people who are like, Ooh, partnerships can be like, Ooh, like there's a lot of like horror story partnership stories out there, you know, where people are like, you really sure you want to do that or like, etc. And I'll speak for myself, but Caitlin and I have talked about this. There was like, really no hesitation on our part. It was like, Oh, yeah, no, like, Yeah, we're supposed to do this thing together, you know, kind of idea. And it's always been in my mind as this like sense of magic in our partnership. And we've had a lot of folks reflect back to us of like, I want a partnership, but like your, I want one like that. And not, I'm not trying to say that from like an ego place, but it was really helpful to do the Enneagram report and then be like, well, of course I still believe in magic. And there is some magic to Caitlin and I finding each other and running this business. And it's not all magic, like the Enneagram was really saying, like, we are like aligned on so much in a very unique way in partnership, which is, you know, a lot of times we say, like, one of the reasons we wanted to do this whole podcast series was just to talk about partnership from a way that isn't always the like, negative or has the fallout associated or the challenges, the difficulties that can happen with it, which there are a lot of those stories, but of like the joys, the possibilities, the excitements of it, what happens when you do find that like partner that helps elevate you and like, is just like that perfect partner in your life. And that it does exist. It can exist. And as I said, I still believe in that like magic component of it and this gave another lens, too, to be like, okay, you know, and if we want to be in the long term of partnership together, which we do, it's like having this understanding now, and as things change and things evolve, like, how can we leverage some of these other types and understandings of ourselves to continue to, like, grow and evolve as we personally do and as the business does and as our clients do, et cetera. So kind of that nice blend of like science and self awareness meets like the magic and the mystery of, of all of it. 

Maren: Yeah, I think that's a really powerful insight and I think it makes me think about how the Enneagram can be such an effective tool both in, you know, in, in those challenges of partnership that can, that could happen, you know, if people come in with a vision or an idea of what they want and then over time, like, it- things creep in that are complex or hard to understand. The Enneagram can be so elucidating and it can so depersonalize patterns of communication and things that people can kind of get stuck in. And it can be so liberatory in understanding, oh, like, and also seeing the strengths and balances in partnership. And I think, you know, you two having the same type and what BWB does, It comes together so perfectly. And other businesses might be better complemented by two very different types because of, because of what that business needs. And so for people to be able to really respect the differences and work together, and I think that the, the deeper individual understanding of the Enneagram can really help make possible healthy collaborative partnerships where people can really respect and understand differences and build those bridges across. And, and I think that sometimes when we're not conscious of our own biases or interpretation, that whatever's happening for our partners, you know, it, it makes me think of, um, that's true for romantic partnerships as well. I, I'm a six is my main type and my husband is a nine. And over time, I've really learned that a six and a nine pair very well together. And I didn't go in, I didn't know his type when we got together, but I, you know, Think about how valuable it can be. And, you know, I don't think- it can't be exclusive because we're, we're multiple things, but like having an understanding of what kind of partner you need, be it romantic, be it business partner, understanding who you are and what best compliments you can be such an incredible tool of the Enneagram.

Cait: Yeah, I love thinking about it that way. I, this random idea just came to me, which is like, can there be a matchmaking of Enneagram? 

Maren: You know, I heard that there is an app, Caitlin, I've heard. 

Cait: Oh, no way! 

Maren: Somebody told me that there is an Enneagram app matchmaking. Yeah. Cause I think it's actually really real and could be, you know, business partnership as well, I would think. 

Cait: That's what I was thinking. And for the record, Casey and I also have like a legit, we worked with a lawyer, had a legal contract drawn up for our partnership, which people ask me that still. They're like, but do you have a contract? I'm like, yes. Day one, when we had to do our contract there, they were asking us like very serious questions about things that you would be asking if you were getting married to somebody. So it is truly like, yes, it's like funny that we're doing a couple's thing, but actually, we've got a lot of things coupled. 

Casey: Yeah, yeah, and we talk about that a lot. Yeah, exactly. Even if it's just like a team member or a colleague or a collaborator that you're working, you know, it doesn't have to just be like an intimate couple or partnership that you're in. It's like partnership in all these different ways where you're working very closely side by side with somebody. You know, it's super valuable. Maren, I feel like there's a million more things and luckily there's going to be a lot of ways for us to continue this conversation, whether it's in our individual work with you or different ways that we're going to bring some of this Enneagram work to the BWB community and the listeners here today, but is there anything else you like that would help it feel kind of complete and wrapped that you would want to bring in that we haven't addressed yet here or anything you want to leave the listeners with? 

Maren: I think that I would just say how I just emphasize how much I love the Enneagram and how much I have enjoyed and felt how much it's brought to my life over the last 15 years of exploration and that you know, I feel wherever your interests, you know, wherever people's interest is sparked, that the potential, you know, I, I, there's people who've dedicated their whole lives to understanding this more, like what I've described today just feels like the barely beginning layers. And so just that like invitation, if it catches your interest, if it sparks your interest to continue to explore and just know that just learning a basic understanding of your main type is just the very beginning. And that. Talking about it collaboratively with friends, working with any, any, a Graham coach can really transform, um, your understanding of it from a very surface application to really unfolding a lot of potential for life transformation.

So I'm a big fan. I'm really grateful for the two of you for your openness and enthusiasm to explore it. It's been so fun to do together, to get to apply a couple's report to a partnership, and I'm excited to continue. collaboration together. 

Cait: Thanks for joining us today. And we're so pumped to do even more of this with you more to come.

Casey: Thanks Maren.

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Casey: Thank you for listening to the Questions to Hold podcast. I hope you enjoyed this episode and are leaving the conversation with way more questions than answers.

I invite you to build a more meaningful relationship with yourself and the world around you through the simple yet profound act of holding questions. Visit questionstohold.com and wearebwb.com to learn more about this practice, our Questions to Hold card deck, and explore more conversations. See you there.