EMBRACING THE UNKNOWN: How to Be With Change with Maren Gauldin Artwork

Questions to Hold with Casey Carroll

Welcome to the Questions to Hold podcast hosted by BWB founder, Casey Carroll. In a world that praises answers over questions, the act of holding a question is an act of resistance, presence and devotion. In this podcast, we explore the intersection of life’s biggest inquiries and our personal and professional worlds. Whose story are you telling? What impact are you having? Are you happy? Tune in for honest conversations with progressive leaders and entrepreneurs dedicated to questioning our institutions, igniting change, and provoking new possibilities. Join us for our next discussion.

All Episodes

Questions to Hold with Casey Carroll

EMBRACING THE UNKNOWN: How to Be With Change with Maren Gauldin

June 16, 2025 • BWB

Join us for a rich conversation with Maren Gauldin (she/her), where we explore the landscape of change through the lens of tools such as the Enneagram, deep listening practices, and holistic approaches to transformation. Maren guides us on how to be with change even when change feels like the scariest thing we could do.

Maren Gauldin is an organizational development consultant, a certified Enneagram coach, a parent, a partner, an advocate, and a community-tender who envisions a world where all are able to discover and fulfill the depths of their potential. Maren leads Seeds to Wholeness, an organizational development consultancy dedicated to unlocking the potential of purpose-driven individuals and businesses. Maren offers Enneagram-based coaching for individuals, couples and teams, along with team-building workshops and organizational development consulting to small businesses and organizations. She is a devoted coach, a tenacious strategist and the co-founder of a non-profit that supports trans children.

In this episode you'll hear about:

How to move through times of change and transformation
The differences between externally and internally driven change
Tools to track and listen to fear to open up opportunities for change
The powerful inquiry of "what if everything is happening for me."
Presence and somatic practices to experience change

SOCIAL HANDLES

Connect with BWB

Be sure to subscribe on Apple or Spotify, and leave us a 5-star rating + review!

Podcast Song: Holding you by Prigida
Music from Uppbeat (free for Creators!):
https://uppbeat.io/t/prigida/holding-you
License code: CELWR55ONTDIFRSS

Casey: [00:00:00] On this season of the Questions to Hold podcast, we will feature conversations with leaders, friends and peers, all dedicated to navigating the unknown. In this time of so much change and great uncertainty, we are being called to become skilled questioners, listeners, dreamers and Builders, join us as we hear personal stories that connect us to our shared humanity and explore how we can transform together and fully embrace the mystery of the [00:00:30] moment. Let's dive in.

Hello everyone and welcome to the Questions to Hold podcast. I am excited to have a repeat guest today with my dear friend and collaborator, Maren Gauldin, who you may recognize from being on the show last season where we got to really dive in deeply into the Enneagram and how it impacts our life, what it is as a system, and how we may start to apply [00:01:00] it personally and professionally.

I know we named that Maren had been doing coaching with Caitlin and I, um, along partnership and the Enneagram, and then has since done it with our clients and is working with me directly to continue to kind of apply some of that Enneagram knowledge and larger knowledge on transformation and change into my executive roles, if you will, and my person of roles. So it's an honor to have you back Maren and get to introduce the listeners to the larger body of [00:01:30] work that you sit within, whether that's in the realms of organizational change and transformation, personal growth and development, um, and then obviously I imagine the Enneagram will get sprinkled in here because what's a good conversation without a little Enneagram?

So I'm gonna kick it over to you if you'd like to just share anything to the listeners who may not have heard the first episode of some context for you, but also anything in addition that you feel is a part of your identity or story you'd like to orient [00:02:00] around today.

Maren: Oh, thank you so much for that introduction, Casey. It's really a delight to be back. I can, I can just feel some tenderness in my heart of how much I love our work together, how many years we've gotten to do this, and I'm, I'm so grateful to be coming back to you and the podcast in this moment of, you know, really in such a full cultural time of change. And I think even in my work and personally as well, I think everyone I know is, is navigating a lot of change. So [00:02:30] this feels like a very rich and exciting conversation. I could share that, you know, I come, come into this podcast currently with a coaching and consulting practice that is largely informed by the Enneagram and is also rooted in a deep passion for and relationship with transformation and growth. Most of my career has been in the space, really weaving between the space of personal development and the burgeoning that [00:03:00] comes out into the world from that. So working in a lot of transformational educational organizations and nonprofits, so really working with purpose-driven people and organizations and the current iteration of my work really allows me to work one-on-one with individuals, with couples, with teams. It really in, in the most lighthearted way, looking at heightened self-awareness, which can lead to opportunities for growth and expansion and maybe in [00:03:30] the more complex territory is people navigating more complex change that wants to happen within them, or that's coming from outside of them and really doing a lot of, uh, support. You know, sometimes I feel like I'm really like holding people's hands through the discomfort of change in growth and doing a lot of support in that space. So my Enneagram foundation feels incredibly supportive in that, and I bring a lot of my own values and spiritual [00:04:00] foundation and ability to see what I, I feel like I have a sense of being able to see what's behind people or over their shoulder, like what wants to emerge through them. And I, I feel really grateful for what I have come to understand is the gift of that and the ability to get to support people with that gift.

Casey: Yeah, and I really love, we were even talking about this just before we got started in recording, but I, I'd love to come back to it at some point, this notion of like change that's being [00:04:30] either forced or mandated from an external environment versus internal driven change, and obviously there's a whole spectrum that exists between those two differences as well. But just kind of really getting into some of that nuance of, of change, where it's coming from external versus internal. But before we dive into some of that juiciness too, I'm wondering if you can just share a little bit more about your own relationship to change and the journey that has gotten you to being in a [00:05:00] consultant and coaching position. Because as anybody, myself included, who's kind of emerged into a coaching consultant, like we're our first clients that we have to learn how to navigate through the change with all the different tools and, uh, life experiences and things like that. So just curious to hear where that question takes you in thinking about your relationship to change.

Maren: I love that question and I've thought about that over the years. Like how, how did this path unfold for me? I have such a strong memory of being [00:05:30] really oriented as a, like as a seeker in my, especially in my teens. Like I have a strong memory of, as I was coming of age and imagining myself in the world, I really wanted to explore, like I was 17 and I was like, I wanna join the Peace Corps. And then I found out you had to have a college degree first. It was really disappointing. I really had a vision for my own growth. I had one of my best friends from high school brought me a letter I had written her when I was like 15. And it had this really mature perspective. I was like giving her advice on some challenge in her life, and she's like, you were [00:06:00] parenting me more than my own parents were. And I was like, wow. I, I can see that there's a, there's like a passion for listening for what journey wanted unfold for me and it really took me through. You know, I did a lot of trip leading a lot of, I had a very social justice orientation as well, so I got, I found myself in leadership programs and travel programs, and I really, what I noticed is that I had this voice inside that was often quiet, that was kind of [00:06:30] whispering to me. I started to really listen to it and it was not always something I wanted to hear. Sometimes it was, you know, it felt like I needed to grow in certain ways. I noticed that I would could try to avoid it or like bat it away for a period of time, but it would keep coming back stronger.

Casey: Mm-hmm.

Maren: I mean, it's part of the mythology of how I relate to my life and my relationship with, you know, the universe, the greater body. It's, it's like evolved over time, but it feels like there is something else that wants to uh, I guess another way might describe it is [00:07:00] that I think we each kind of like a seed that can grow into its fullness as an oak tree or a pine tree or whatever its fullness is that like we each are that inside and with the right flourishing nourishment, we can become our fullest selves and it takes growth and expansion. We have to like listen for the branches. We have to like take care of our soil and if we nourish ourselves, we can actually flourish into our full expression as who we are. So I think those little voices along the way have been guiding me through [00:07:30] like listening for, oh, sometimes it's an, it's an out or action. Like there was a internship to India, I remember that came across my plate not long after my mom died when I was in college, which was a very transformative experience, and I listened to that. I took myself on a almost solo trip to India because the internship turns out was very unsupported. I lost my bag along the way, didn't arrive. I was like, spent so much time preparing for the trip, and it ended up being completely transformative and expansive. I felt like my [00:08:00] whole worldview changed, and it was listening to moments like that of like, this is the next adventure to take, or this relationship needs to change because it isn't serving you anymore. And so I think over, you know, 20, 25 years of listening to that, of following that path of growth, I've had people reflect to me many times over my life that they experience me as very brave in the face of change. Like I will put my, I've put myself through a lot of brave experiences and they never [00:08:30] felt brave at the time. I felt terrified on the edge of every single one of them. My husband and I with our through almost, well, I guess she had just turned three and my three month old, we decided to move out of our place in California, get into an RV, traveled around like that decision felt like jumping off a cliff and it was honestly not fun. My husband's like "that was the best adventure of our lives", but I was terrified the whole time and I just knew it was something we had to do to find kind of our home base as a family, we ended up [00:09:00] settling in Colorado. Those kinds of brave cusp adventures have always just, I felt really compelled to listen. The feeling I had is like, if I don't listen, it will come anyway.

Casey: Mm-hmm.

Maren: I've had that experience with jobs that felt like it was time to transition and I didn't wanna go. Probably worthwhile contextualizing my Enneagram type and all of that. My Enneagram type is a six, which is the loyalist and the energy of that type is very security focused. So it took me a long time to understand that I was really, actually, fear is a [00:09:30] strong driver for the six, but bravery in the face of it is also a strong pattern for the six.

Casey: I was just gonna ask about the Enneagram and how, like, how do you apply again that six. Piece, you're starting to name a little bit, but to unpack it just a touch further of like there are life moments that are happening to initiate us. There's what's coming in, you're coming in with, which is some of your essence, which you can see and learn more about through the Enneagram that you do with six. But it's like, how can you take that and [00:10:00] apply Like yeah, I might have been scared. I had the notion that I had to kind of go in anyways as the six or as some of the other pieces of understanding that you understand because I am, I am imagining this is a bridge into how you support others too, coming from this place of change is, you know, incredibly complex for so many of us. And, um, you're not coming from the place of like, oh yeah, it's easy. I'm just born to change. We can all change. It's like it's been a [00:10:30] journey for you too, and that's how you can sit alongside somebody else or an organization that's seeking that same kind of transformative change potential.

Maren: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I love that question. Uh, what it makes me think of is the, feels like it's actually a listening practice and it's listening for, you know, I think those messages come to all of us. I actually think they come to organizations and leadership as well. Those like, they're often I think, subtle, like where is the line of evolution want to go? And it can really vary by person. [00:11:00] Like one person's big brave thing is getting into the RV and driving off, and another person's might be staying. We've talked about this with your Enneagram type. The Enneagram seven has like a drive for adventure and newness and innovation. And sevens can bring a tremendous amount of excitement for a change in opportunity. And sometimes for sevens the like slowing down or taking a break or staying in or taking something off the schedule is actually a braver experience because it evokes [00:11:30] that learning or that growth edge.

Casey: Mm-hmm.

Maren: So for me it's really a listening for an individual path of like, what is the growth edge that wants to happen through me, and then what are the supports I need to stay on that edge in a way that, you know, I, I really have thought a lot about where I find my gifts or my strengths and supporting this work. And partly it's learning how to tolerate fear. It's learning how to track fear, feel it, and also listen to it because sometimes fear is incredibly important. It's [00:12:00] also, it's also the emotion that protects us from decisions that are not the right next step. But it also is the feeling that can come up when we're on the edge of a personal growth moment or an opportunity to shift and change, and it's fear from the ego or fear from the self that wants to stay safer in as a self, like doesn't want to give up or grow or change. So learning how to like listen really deeply to what is the message of this particular feeling? And that feels like a very [00:12:30] subtle, artful, very personal journey for people over time. Like, how do I know what is the voice that I've learned means this? And what's the voice I've learned means this?

Casey: What would you say for those listening who are interested in kind of understand 'cause it is an individualized journey. And yet I think in the work that you do, you have a lot of universal tools that can be applied in different ways, Ennegram being one of them, we're talking about. But there are more like what would be some of those first ways that you invite folks [00:13:00] to begin tracking and even listening. 'cause I think before listening, it's like that awareness that it's there. Typically, and then once there's more awareness and relationship that's built, then we can listen more dynamically potentially. But also you name, there are sometimes like these whispers that you're trying to bat away and the whispers are like. Sorry, time to listen. So what are, just for those people listening, like a practical tool or thing they might be able to do to build relationship [00:13:30] with that figure that gets them to the cusp of change if you will.

Maren: Yeah. What a good question. You know, my sense is that there is something, I think a little bit of the mythology of like the hero's descent of, I think that it is, I guess I have an inquiry of like whether we can really choose it or force it or whether the poll it, if we're really don't want it or wanna avoid it, I think we can actually keep it away for a long time. So I think it really starts with a curiosity [00:14:00] of, is there something I'm avoiding? Is there something that I'm like not paying attention to my life? And it really is almost like a quiet questioning with a lot of space and I think it can be like alone in your room at night or it can be in a conversation with a friend. It's almost like is there something that wants to be coming through in my life? Are there messages coming for me that I'm could listen to more subtly? And I think just asking that question-

Casey: Mm-hmm.

Maren: -Will often evoke something. You know, [00:14:30] so it's like just, just having turning towards, or a curiosity towards, I think the messages get louder and they get easier to listen to. I mean, one of the reasons I love the Enneagram is that it's a great starting place. You know, when I work with people who don't have a ton of their own, like self-growth or self-development practice. The Enneagram is such an accessible tool that kind of depersonalizes what are, what's unique about things that are challenging or what your gifts are? You know, I think our, our world [00:15:00] is so, so much attention is going outwards and there's so much distraction. The journey of just coming into like, this is my body, this is my life, this is who I am, and kind of presence with ourselves.

Casey: Mm-hmm.

Maren: Most of us, it's like a real journey. Like there's a lot of outer distraction. We have lots of habits in our lives that keep us out of relationship with our bodies and out of presence and something, even just about starting the journey of like, this is who I am, seeing ourselves clearly, that feels like the [00:15:30] foundation for which those small and, and then surprising little moments of like, maybe I do wanna go explore this thing, or I, I see like, oh, an ad for like a drama club and I'm like, that actually seems compelling. Like little opportunities for exploration I think come from that space of presence with ourselves. I actually think it's maybe that simple.

Casey: Yeah, well we always say too, it reminds me so much of essentially what the practice of Questions to Hold is that we invite people into, [00:16:00] and it can seem simple, but it's actually incredibly profound. And you know, another way too, as you're naming, like there's so many habits that keep us external. There's also so many habits like in the realm of change, where it's like you think of it from this kind of like extreme or big shift momentous piece all the time of like, oh, I need a change. Which means like something radical has to, and sometimes that is it. But other times what we've seen just in the Questions to Hold practice too, if you're even holding the question of like [00:16:30] what change is coming forward, like what change is calling me forward, sometimes it's so little and like granular and there're the, all these little shifts and inquiries and curiosities that come up of that that maybe ladder up to a big change over time, but it's actually those more nuanced, quieter pieces that are harder to hear in the change landscape because it's like these little things that need to happen to make the big piece happen. But a lot of [00:17:00] times I, in conversation of transformation or change or growth, it's so momentous. It's so grandiose all the time, which is beautiful and aspirational and oftentimes it's just a lot quieter than that and smaller steps in that.

Maren: Totally. Yeah. And that's certainly, you know, my experience in working with people is, I think again, that's why it's such a personal journey. You know, one person's like pattern is like big changes, big shifts, and they kind of throw themselves across. A change threshold over and over again. And it's like the [00:17:30] pattern of that, if they're actually slow down and listen, actually really may not be in service to their full, you know, their full flourishing as who they're meant to be. And others maybe are like more resistant to some of that, the bigger changes and really only wanna do it incrementally. And sometimes a big change is really liberatory. And so it, it's like a question of. I'm also thinking about just some of the simple practices, like most embodiment practices, a yoga practice, even a walking practice. If we [00:18:00] are using those, a meditation practice, those kind of simple habits, if we can allow ourselves to be present in them, I do think we start to hear those more subtle, quiet voices and they give us clearer instructions that are those small, incremental steps. I mean, as I'm working with people, it's amazing to me how important and potent I call them, like small experiments in trying on something new and then testing it. Like it's really becomes like a hypothesis, you know? Okay, if I try [00:18:30] this out. How does it feel? What's the return I get on leaning into that edge? And then building like a muscle. It really, sometimes I really feel like I'm doing training with people. I'm helping them build muscles of listening to those voices, bravely exploring new territory, and then getting feedback, developing the muscle to listen ever more closely, take more steps. Um, and it just really like cycles in ever greater openness.

Casey: It's always happening, you know, it's never like that [00:19:00] cycle ends. I'm curious to come back to that question we started to name in the beginning too, around this external verse, internal, and I don't even wanna say like a verse because they're just like different pieces around change and like we were naming in the beginning of the conversation. There's so much external change culturally, socially, globally, environmentally happening right now that is mandated that it is exerting its force on [00:19:30] all of us, on every living being and thing on the planet. And then there's the relationship that that has with the internal, but then there's also just our internal change that's also happening right now. And actually both seem to be hitting these like crescendo moments or like consciousness, internal driven changes. Also having a lot of like climax that we're seeing with clients too. So, I would be curious to hear your perspective in working in this field, but also in your own personal experience of [00:20:00] feeling the relationship between those two forces and how they're in conversation or how we can start to think about them in a way that supports us in just having a deeper understanding and awareness of where the change is coming from and how we can be with it.

Maren: Yeah, I love this inquiry also, and you know, I've been feeling it so much personally in the last several months and, and with everyone that I'm working with and really thinking about kind of the space around our, our ability to [00:20:30] respond, where we heighten that capacity. And in many ways, as I've, I've thought about this a lot in the last few months of both the outer and the inner. There's a way that they feel so similar to me in terms of how we might respond and the approach I'm thinking about, well, I guess I'm thinking about three different kinds of change. One, the change that comes from outside of us, big, political, loss of someone in our life, like jobs that end, like things that come in as an outside force that we really don't have control over. I'm also [00:21:00] thinking about the kind of change that happens because we feel an inner call and it feels like a choice. Like, I want to grow a business. I want to bring forth something into the world. Like it's from that like listening.

Casey: Mm-hmm.

Maren: And then I also think about the change that sometimes starts to happen when either of those, like inner listening or outr change and we start to initiate it. And then another kind of change happens internally that we didn't choose. One of my clients that I work with, for example, is a two on the Enneagram. She's a strong [00:21:30] helper. A lot of our patterns are really loving, supporting all the people in her life, and she's been doing a lot of work on taking better care of herself on following her growth path in the Enneagram. And now what's happening is that she is finding herself feeling a lot more anger and frustration in patterns of relationships in a way that like people she used to love, she's having a really hard time being around. And so it's distressing 'cause she's like, I love this person, but I'm just, I'm dealing with a lot of emotional reaction to now the pattern of our [00:22:00] relationship and my feeling is that, that like everything else is it cycles that we get to move through and integrate. But I think that that kind of change can happen too. When we take on a growth journey, we basically start to put in place other unintended changes, you know, or sometimes relationships no longer fit anymore. And I think about responding to all of it. I mean, there's one way that I, you know, I think has complexity, especially with a social justice lens. And when I try it on as a lens and when [00:22:30] I invite my clients to, the concept of everything is happening for me.

Casey: Mm-hmm.

Maren: Or how of the inquiry of how is this happening for me, which doesn't ever have to be validating or approving of, or, you know, even, uh, saying thank you for outer challenging things happening. The question of "what if this was happening for me?" can liberate kind of in the questions the whole way can liberate so much exploration and so much [00:23:00] potential? You know, I really think about the way I've been working somatically with what's happening politically, which really like affects so many of our families. Like really some policies that have come down and very deeply impacted me and my family and. I have thought about how it's feels so big and it also feels so far outside of my control and I've really been working very somatically -

Casey: Mm-hmm.

Maren: -With how I'm experiencing that change. Um, which [00:23:30] often just means like presence and breath with the body experience of which is usually fear. And sometimes it's sadness and letting it move through. And what I've noticed over the last few months is I feel a lot more empowered, engaged, like my responsibility to opportunities to fight back, or resist or show up in the places feels a lot stronger. One, as I move through the somatic experience of fear and that question of what if this is for me has evoked a lot of how much clearer I am [00:24:00] about my values? What I wanna fight for one, I wanna show up. It actually has been, I've been able to internalize it as an opportunity to strengthen myself, my relationship to my closer community. And that feels like an ongoing journey that might be ongoing for a number of years. I, I can't remember, I don't think I said this in the last podcast. There was an as astrologer, I really trust who I was in community with at the beginning of the pandemic in 2020 who said the astrology for this decade is [00:24:30] just off the charts with change and growth a lot like the last twenties of the last century. Um, and I've been really carrying that. There's also something about the cosmology or like how we orient to what's happening, trying to hold it in a bigger picture that has given me some aids in my ability to use it as an opportunity to kind of shore up my own inner resources versus just feeling completely flattened by it.

Casey: Yeah, and anybody that's interested in that too, Jocelin [00:25:00] Martinez is a, an astrologer that is on this season of the podcast and they're coming to our upcoming retreat in the fall and she's incredible in that landscape. And I wanna just like double echo that because that was also, really a crucial piece for me in coming into this new year with the change landscape that we are in, to have some of the directional knowledge that she provided through the stars and the sky and through the bigger picture that we're all kind of like with in [00:25:30] relationship with. So check out that too, and I couldn't agree more with that. And also just as you're naming in here, which is like coming back into the presence and the somatic practices, and that's about being in relationship with the fear, which allows us, and it could be fear and compounded with other pieces, but that allows us to be in relationship with change in kind of a new landscape versus just attaching that to change, not [00:26:00] thinking through all the different pieces that might be attached to that change, whether it's fear or grief or sadness or ancestral pieces that are kind of coming along with that. And one other piece I just wanted to name are just in response to your share too, of obviously the complicated nature to some of those questions, especially from like a social justice lens. But thinking about that piece of what if everything is happening for me, an answer to that could be, "no, it's not." You know, and I think sometimes there is the [00:26:30] invitation that you're giving to clients to open into that way, and it's also okay for us to say, yeah, everything is happening for me and here are my boundaries within all of that, it's just a gateway into thinking with the change and then having agency and choice within that as well. And it doesn't have to be like, oh, okay, everything's happening for me, so I have to show up over here and I also have to do this. And this is just part of the journey. It's like there's this great [00:27:00] opportunity about our own agency and autonomy and personal responsibility and all the other pieces that I think can get unlocked in that question, which is interesting and juicy to think about.

Maren: Yeah. And as you say, sometimes evokes some like maybe intuitively surprising responses, which is like, no, like this doesn't feel like it's happening for me and I'm not okay with it and here's like how I'm going to move or take action in relationship with it. But it's [00:27:30] kind of ultimately about engagement.

Casey: Mm-hmm.

Maren: I think, I really think a lot about those right along with presence, like, uh, for me, presence and engagement are very like, you know, two overlapping circles. Um, engagement for me is something like responding. In the space of presence, it's like relating to what's happening. Whether that means like meeting the grief and that might be like a big puddle on the floor of sobbing for [00:28:00] hours, maybe days in a row. You know, it's, and then at some point continuing to engage might mean ready to get up and go take some action. Or it might be like taking some strong action and realizing I need a full stop. I need a full weekend break. It's a present listening. And then responding with choice and decision making in terms of how to meet what is really happening in any individual moment. And my feeling is like when presence and engagement meet any moment, if it can keep moving through, I [00:28:30] know there's so many like cliche adages about there, but like change is inevitable. It's like constant and it, the only, uh, known is change. And I think there is a truth to that. Like in any given moment we are all like, cells are cycling through and that we are just in constant evolution. Everything is in constant, subtle evolution, and when we are present with and participate with it, it becomes, I dunno, at least we get more presence and connection to our lives and what's happening, even if so [00:29:00] much of it we can't control.

Casey: Yeah, and that's a good place to kind of like come into some sort of, not conclusion to the conversation, but a piece that I've been thinking about with it is like, okay, so yes, there's all those changes are constant and all that kind of stuff. There's truth in there, right? And there are adages we've heard over and over again. But also I'm so curious, like for anybody listening, myself included, who's interested in like this engagement of change, [00:29:30] but from a very, I don't wanna use empowered, I'm not sure the word I wanna use, but from a place of like agency coming into the change, what are some resources or like tips, for lack of a better word, that you would just offer to people. You know, we heard the presence practice of just even asking some of those questions and building that kind of like inquiry and listening practice. But are there other resources that you think are helpful in stepping into the the path? [00:30:00]

Maren: Yeah. I mean, as I feel into that question what really comes up is this sense that we are deeply social and connected creatures, and when I think about the greatest change and transformation that I've experienced in my life and my ability to meet it, it's all been supported by some kind of container or context that is designed to support. So over the course of my life and career, I've done many different transformational [00:30:30] programming, counseling, trainings, embodied, you know, authentic movement trainings, expressive arts, and they all had a component of this growth listening transformation. And so I think sometimes the simple, I mean, it's part of why I offer the coaching work I do is because I actually think that we need companionship to some great extent, whether that's like a one-on-one with a person or a good friend that can give you the kinds of reflections and accountability and support. You know, for some people communing with [00:31:00] nature or like a bigger landscape is enough. And I think for a lot of people, human connection in this space is really invaluable. And I think that can also be like a yoga community or it can be, you know, an intentional. Program that is designed to evoke change in transformation. The Enneagram, for example, I think is an incredible resource, whether that's just learning on your own or you know, and it's not the only one. There's like lots of systems out there. What I notice [00:31:30] in working with people is that, uh, people will get that call. It's a little bit like that soul call of like, I think there's something, and they will do a little inquiry into different options, and then they'll fold back in to like staying safe. So I think maybe it's as simple as like, keep listening, keep engaging towards the things that maybe feel scary, you know? 'Cause I think in any different community, there's lots of options. Like whatever sparks you is probably the thing to go [00:32:00] towards. Whether that's an embodiment, a breath work practice, getting the astrology reading, finding a coach, doing the Enneagram, like I think there's a lot of different pathways doing the yoga teacher training, like whatever the thing that's stirring inwards is saying yes to it. Yeah, I think that's where I would most want to direct people is to like fan the flames of those quiet voices and listen for- I also think once we say yes to, like I want to know more about what wants to [00:32:30] happen through me. I think sometimes opportunities show up in front of us. Somebody sends us the right podcast, somebody sends us the link to the thing that we needed to learn about.

Casey: Yeah. And for you, Ms. Maren, on your own personal change journey, what are you fanning the flames of right now? What's that edge for yourself? Obviously there's all the work that you're holding space with your organizations and with your clients, and always in tandem with that as a work in of our own, but so it's like, what is that? What are you on the cusp of [00:33:00] right now in your in your journey?

Maren: Oh yeah. So rich, I could feel almost even tears coming, just feeling into it. A good actually mutual, um, friend and colleague of both of ours, Selena May, at one point when I began my entrepreneurial journey, she said, I think that the path of solo entrepreneurship is the path of the most personal growth. It will keep you on your edge at every turn. Um, and it's partly why I left the organizations that I was really embedded in because I'm so devoted to staying on my growth path. [00:33:30] So what it looks like right now is approaching a summer. Uh, this is the first summer where my, my husband's who's a teacher, he's gonna be home all summer. My kids are gonna be around and there's this really interesting tension i'm navigating between how do I lean so fully into presence with my family as the opportunities arise and stay really focused on what wants to emerge through work. And it's really easy when I'm in either of those spaces to get very focused and to feel into what are the patterns and [00:34:00] rhythms of our life and my work life that will support full presence in both spaces. I am constantly listening and feeling pressure from inside around the next iteration of my work. There's a vision of a collective of practitioners that's coming together for me. There's some really exciting collaborative workshops and retreats that are coming, and I feel that they all have an element of exploration and require some [00:34:30] personal growth as I go through them. And those all feel, um, exciting and like they've got me on my edge, which is really honestly where I've like learned to love to be. But that's been a long journey. So it feels just as scary as my, you know, stepping out into my personal growth journey like 25 years ago.

Casey: Yeah. What a perfect vocation to pick for your path of being in the industry or the field, I guess, of change and transformation as somebody who [00:35:00] is calling themselves over and over again into their own change and transformation and entrepreneurship is a really great place to, um, get all of those things compounded as well. So it's exciting and always humbling as somebody who's been guided by you over and over again in times of great change to also, as you said, that social piece where we're all in it in some way or another, you know, where there's no higher than it's, we're all in this like, great, um, [00:35:30] evolution at the same time. And so it's exciting to know the person that holds space for others is also on their own edges in the midst of all of it.

Maren: Yeah, I mean, I will just say kind of as a, I, I don't trust anyone who is leading this kind of work that is not staying on their own edge. And they often make it look like they're not, you know, like I, I work with people who like, they see like the me that has navigated so much change. But I know the people that I've worked with over the time too. Like if, if I don't get some sense that they are staying on their [00:36:00] edge, I don't think they can actually do this work. You have to be willing to like lead by example. And if you start shutting down those voices in your own self and ignoring them, you can't honestly support others doing it. It dries up I think really quickly. So it's also part, it is I think, a good fit for me in part because there's a necessary requirement. It's like yoga teachers that have to keep practicing.

Casey: Mm-hmm.

Maren: You know?

Casey: Was there anything else that feels like it got left out of this conversation or feels important to name or [00:36:30] mention or resource before we close on this? And I will say that Maren is gonna be at the retreat with us in this fall and also comes into lots of client work. So if you're listening to this and wanna engage that way in a co-relationship. Also, we have in the show notes ways to work with Maren and other ways that you're doing collaborations. But outside of all that, is there anything in this moment or in this conversation that feels important to mention before we wrap?

Maren: Mmm. I mostly want to just [00:37:00] send a intention up for all of us to seek out and then allow and receive the nourishment that we can find in these full and trying times. It's mostly just a desire to have everyone listening. Be able to identify the places in their life where they can get nourished and find that quiet resource and the kind of chutzpah to take them to find those moments and claim them so that we can all bring our, you know, [00:37:30] collective wellness and resource to transformation. Maybe that's the message is that I actually don't think we can do our growth work, which without healthy soil and support and nourishment from others, from our environment, from our own lives. So that's my wish for all of us, is like we can gather a little basket of our own wellness plans and resources and take it as we can.

Casey: Well, thank you Maren, as always. So good to be in dialogue around all these things and many, many other things. I love you very [00:38:00] much and I hope everybody enjoyed the conversation as much as me and we will have many more to come.

Maren: Yay. Thank you so much Casey.

Casey: Thank you for listening to the Questions to Hold podcast. I hope you enjoyed this episode and are leaving the conversation with way more questions than answers. I invite you to build a more meaningful relationship with yourself and the world around you through the simple yet profound act of holding questions. Visit questions to [00:38:30] hold.com and wearebwb.com to learn more about this practice our Questions to Hold card deck, and explore more conversations. See you there.