Episode 47
So what is it exactly that speech and language therapists do, and how can they help neurodiverse individuals? We're shining a light on it in our latest episode with the insightful Cathy Schilling, founder of the Speech Den. We promise that you'll come away with a newfound understanding and appreciation for the importance of tailored speech therapy in unlocking the potential of children with speech and language difficulties.
Venture with us on our journey into the often-overlooked realm of auditory processing difficulties in classroom environments. It's a complex world, where the buzzing classroom could be a minefield rather than a haven of learning. Cathy helps us understand this better, and shares strategies that educators can use to make classrooms more inclusive, which could be a game-changer for many students.
We round off our discussion with a deep dive into Gestalt language processing, exploring the power of silence for co-regulation and authentic communication - something that could revolutionize your understanding of autistic communication. And if you've ever wondered about the benefits of self-advocacy and child-led learning, Cathy provides some eye-opening examples. You don't want to miss this episode – Cathy's insights are a treasure trove for anyone seeking to support neurodiversity in parenting and education.
Click here for a link to the Speech Den
www.sendparenting.com
Episode 47
So what is it exactly that speech and language therapists do, and how can they help neurodiverse individuals? We're shining a light on it in our latest episode with the insightful Cathy Schilling, founder of the Speech Den. We promise that you'll come away with a newfound understanding and appreciation for the importance of tailored speech therapy in unlocking the potential of children with speech and language difficulties.
Venture with us on our journey into the often-overlooked realm of auditory processing difficulties in classroom environments. It's a complex world, where the buzzing classroom could be a minefield rather than a haven of learning. Cathy helps us understand this better, and shares strategies that educators can use to make classrooms more inclusive, which could be a game-changer for many students.
We round off our discussion with a deep dive into Gestalt language processing, exploring the power of silence for co-regulation and authentic communication - something that could revolutionize your understanding of autistic communication. And if you've ever wondered about the benefits of self-advocacy and child-led learning, Cathy provides some eye-opening examples. You don't want to miss this episode – Cathy's insights are a treasure trove for anyone seeking to support neurodiversity in parenting and education.
Click here for a link to the Speech Den
www.sendparenting.com
Welcome to the Send Parenting Podcast. I'm your neurodiverse host, dr Olivia Kessel, and, more importantly, I'm mother to my wonderfully neurodivergent daughter, alexandra, who really inspired this podcast. As a veteran in navigating the world of neurodiversity in a UK education system, I've uncovered a wealth of misinformation, alongside many answers and solutions that were never taught to me in medical school or in any of the parenting handbooks. Each week on this podcast, I will be bringing the experts to your ears to empower you on your parenting crusade. In this episode we will be joined by Kathy Shilling, founder of the Speech Den.
Dr Olivia Kessel :Kathy specializes in working with children with speech and language difficulties, literacy difficulties, social communication and autistic spectrum disorders, and supports both children and adults with auditory processing difficulties. She is extremely passionate about neurodiversity and has such valuable expertise we can all benefit from. Keep listening to hear this insightful podcast. So welcome, kathy. It is a pleasure to have you on the Send Parenting podcast to really share with us your thoughts on neurodiversity and education and the importance of supporting children with their speech and language at home and at school so that they can reach their full potential. Could you share a little bit about yourself and the Speech Ten Therapy Center that you have founded?
Cathy Shilling:So I qualified a really long time ago as a speech and language therapist, and it's been not just a job but a lifelong passion, and I've been so fortunate that my job has continued to progress over the years. It's one of those jobs that you never get stuck in a rut with, you just keep learning information, and I always love that phrase that I've picked up from one of my real gurus in the speech and language therapy world, which is when we know better, we do better, and I think that that is so true.
Cathy Shilling:Yeah, it's fundamental to the Speech Ten. So the Speech Ten was originally just Kathy Schilling, independent speech and language therapist, set up 19 years ago, and then gradually over time we've gained colleagues, other speech and language therapists and a speech and language therapy assistant and around seven years ago we became the Speech Den and part of our ethos is that we are very neurodiversity affirming and that our support is fun, engaging and it acknowledges everybody's opinions, views and interests, whether that be teachers, parents and, of course, most importantly, very child-focused, very child-centered in all that we do.
Dr Olivia Kessel :That's brilliant and you know it's so interesting because as a parent, you're kind of classic view of what speech and language is about, or at least my misconception is it's oh, kids have problems speaking, maybe they're stuttering, but actually there's so much more to it and you know I was talking to another guest the other day who was talking about how it's really helped her with her autistic child and can you explain how like it's not just speech and language and it goes so much more. It's so much more than that.
Cathy Shilling:I guess we have this very unfortunate title, speech and Language Therapist and that really only just kind of sits on the very edge of the range of things that we're involved with. Over my career I've worked with adults with learning difficulties, adults who've had strokes. I've been a feeding specialist with adults who've had a stroke and also with young children, neonates, very young children who have feeding issues. I've worked with children who are dyslexic, children who are autistic.
Cathy Shilling:Looking much more deeper at communication, obviously speech sounds, stammering, fluency, voice. You know, and I know there'll be so many different areas that I haven't missed that other speech and language therapists will be shouting at the screen now. Why didn't you say that? And from a personal perspective, I guess, at the speech then we are particularly interested in supporting neurodiversity in children who are autistic, children who are, who may be dyslexic, maybe have auditory processing difficulties, developmental language disorder and, of course, speech sound disorders as well, and those are our kind of like key areas that we support in and can you take us through, kind of, some of those examples of how you support individuals with the therapies that you do.
Cathy Shilling:So it is always child focus and child led and I think that that is really really key and I feel that over my career this has really changed.
Cathy Shilling:So, particularly when I sort of started out and until, I would say, in the last sort of four or five years, you know I always had an agenda that I had to get through these things and this was really important.
Cathy Shilling:But I think over time that that has changed and, for example, if I'm working with my autistic client group, my goals for them is around making connection, is finding out what their preferences are, both in terms of their interests and sensory preferences.
Cathy Shilling:It's about thinking about how they self advocate for what they need to have those needs, those sensory needs, met, those communication needs met, those regulation needs met. So it's really changed over the course of time and I feel at the moment we're in a really exciting time where people are much more aware of identifying autism, social communication needs, adhd, and we are really thinking about meeting their needs, because I guess all the information that we now have from autistic adults explaining what worked for them and their sort of anxieties, things that didn't work for them, and really listening to their voice about what would have been helpful in the past- yeah, it's so true, and I've had some, you know, autistic guests on my show who've, you know, had they been empowered with that and the ability to explain so that people could understand it, would have solved a lot of problems and a lot of anxiety and heartache in their lives really.
Dr Olivia Kessel :So, yeah, it's great that it's evolved as a therapy. You know so much it sounds like in the past couple of years.
Cathy Shilling:And I think we I am constantly self reflecting on my, my views, on my sessions, thinking about is this ableist? Am I trying to? Am I sort of really encouraging masking? Am I encouraging the child to sort of think oh, how I communicate isn't right, it needs to be? You know more, look more like this. So it's a constant, ever learning process and I think one of the could you, could you explain for the listeners who don't know what ableism means?
Dr Olivia Kessel :Could you explain to them what ableism means?
Cathy Shilling:So ableism is when non autistic or non neuro diverse well, sorry, people with different neuro differences, how they think and feel is different to perhaps the people who are non neuro divergent. For, for one of the better word, try think about them in a way that is non neuro divergent. So, for example, as an adult communicator, one of my preferred styles of communication is to make eye contact. That may not be the same for some of the young children and young people that I'm working for. It may be a non preferred communication style. It may even feel quite painful for them, quite anxiety making. It may be that actually processing language takes so much effort that actually looking at the person at the same time is too hard and creates can even be painful. But for with an ableist lens on, I might be saying well, actually I need you to show you that you're listening, so you need to make eye contact with me. So it's about and that is a very clear example of ableist. Our team is thinking that's great example.
Cathy Shilling:But actually there are so many subtle things that I know that happen in my own practice and I'm so constant reflection and also talking to particularly speech and language therapists who are, who may be diagnosed as autistic or have ADHD themselves, Certainly in the speech. Then our team is really diverse in terms of where we're coming from. So I think that helps as well and it's always about reflecting, yeah and understanding and putting yourself in.
Dr Olivia Kessel :It's really taking yourself out of your comfort zone. Yeah, I understand someone else's. Yeah, yeah that's it.
Cathy Shilling:It's not just communication either. It's thinking about cultural differences, gender identities, all sorts of things that you know I I Haven't thought strong, you know, in great depth about until, I guess, the last few years. We're really lucky within the speech and language therapy world in the UK that we've got some Real champions who have created groups and who are networking via social media, sharing information. That really does help with that learning process.
Dr Olivia Kessel :Yeah, it's a, it's um, it's a great time. I think In the world of neurodiversity we still have a way to go, but it's definitely it's, it's coming along, and this is just another affirmation of that. You had mentioned auditory processing difficulties as well, and I had one parent come to me. I guess most people might not know what those are. So I guess first an explanation of what an auditory Processing difficulty is, and then I'd like to ask you one of the questions that one of our parents, whose daughter has just been diagnosed with that she wanted to ask your advice on a couple of points okay.
Cathy Shilling:So an auditory processing difficulty is the medical term for listening difficulties and this can be picked up at many points in a child and adults life. There are very few testing centers in the UK in terms of identifying it, but it's how, kind of like the, the brain Interprets sounds, both speech and non-speech. So Some of the challenges that might be faced are localizing sounds, noticing where they are, noticing, being able to Filter out unwanted sound, like background noise, for example. So thinking about the close links with memory so auditory memory, recall of verbal information and also be impacted, actually Hearing the subtle differences in sounds, for example in words. So when you come to do your spelling, when you're going to read, all of those things are going to impact auditory processing, although it's called auditory, so we think directly of listening, are very, very close to Literacy as well, to both the, the written, and the the written word in terms of right spelling, but also Reading as well and and recall of that information. It can also Thinking about how People with auditory processing difficulties may struggle with kind of this the signal itself coming in, and unless it's a very pure signal, may not be able to fill in those gaps.
Cathy Shilling:So, for example, if you were Listening in environment where it was a little bit busier say, somebody was coughing. You were at a theater, you were the you know, 8th, 10th throwback. Somebody behind you was coughing or maybe talking. You can still hear what's going on on the stage, but that signal becomes slightly degraded and, as a person who processes auditory information well Although it would be effortful for me to listen I would be able to fill those missing gaps, in that I'm missing because of the noise coming from behind me. Somebody with auditory processing difficulties may find that particularly challenging.
Dr Olivia Kessel :That must be really hard in a big classroom, then, as you know, as you describe it that way, for a child to, to be able to, to listen to the teacher if there's other Disruptions or noises going on.
Cathy Shilling:Yeah, very much so, and I think you know. Then you think about how much Extra effort they may well need to be putting in in order to to focus and to attend to the spoken language. For example, and without you know, and in certain classrooms I know, when I go into different schools, I can go in one school where the Acoustic environment is amazing and then I can go into another one and it's, you know, the sound is really, really reverberant. There's perhaps it's quite a busy area where it's next to a road, for example. Or I always remember going down to do an assessment with a child In one school and it was a Tuesday morning and every Tuesday morning the the groundsman came in and mowed the lawn and it was just, it was really tough work. I was struggling and I, you know, I always think. Just think of those moments where you've struggled with background noise, times that by 50, 100, and Then imagine that all day long that that is how you're processing information and how tiring that could be.
Dr Olivia Kessel :Yeah, and that you know this particular parent has asked me to ask you in the playground, where of course you've got the cacophony of tons of children running around making noise, and Her daughter, who's been diagnosed with this, is, I think, struggling to pick up on playground cues and you know is is just struggling really and she wanted to ask your advice on, you know, is it about educating her peers, or what kind of tools or techniques Could she use in the playground to to fit in more, I suppose?
Cathy Shilling:So I think first of all we'd want to find out is that what her daughter really wants? And it, by the sounds of it, yes it is. Her daughters come and said right, well, I've got this diagnosis. Now I'm struggling in the playground sometimes with cues, so we could spend some time Looking at what those cues might be.
Cathy Shilling:So, for example, you know, observing her friends, but equally, just as you've mentioned, we want her friends to and, and peers not just her friends but peers to understand her, because I guess auditory processing comes under the neurodiversity umbrella. It's part, it's a brain difference, it's a listening difference in terms of the brain. So Perhaps teaching staff could ensure that there were some visual Aids available as well, visual cues, so specific signals, things, places that are safe, where she could go to, maybe a designated Peer, a designated per adult in the playground, that if there were any kind of complication, you know, any sort of issues that she was finding more challenging that she, she could go to. And you know, I think, sort of like that education of neuro I don't neuro diversity across the school, accepting that actually we need to make changes to our communication, not always expecting this, this little girl, to make changes and adapt to all of the others. It's a two-way process, and so understanding each other is really, really important.
Dr Olivia Kessel :No, I love that you said that and I know we've spoken before about. You know the the importance of understanding neurodiversity in the education setting and I love you told me the story about you wouldn't ask someone to get up out of their wheelchair and walk. You just wouldn't. You know what I mean. But yet we are more prone to do that In the classroom with neurodiversities.
Cathy Shilling:We are, and I guess it's things that within the classroom we often see, you know, or it might be commented on, is behavior. But actually behavior is communication. And where is that behavior coming from? Are the sensory needs being met? Are they totally overwhelmed with sensory information? Are they? Is this this group of children or young people? Are they being listened to? Are they being expected to sit for a really long period of time when actually their body needs movement?
Cathy Shilling:There are some really progressive schools that I'm working in where they have things like stand-up desks. Some of these students are even sitting on yoga balls. You know lots of different kind of wobble cushions, different Adaptations are being made and and that's you know, rick, just even having, instead of having, a movement break. Or in some of the schools I've worked in, the pupils that do need movement have had a toilet pass. Well, actually they don't need to go to the toilet, they actually just need to move, and that is part of their, their makeup, in the same way that they might need to go to the loo. It really what we're wanting is is an acceptance that People's sensory preferences may differ significantly, and being able to move is a really important part of that.
Dr Olivia Kessel :Yeah, and I mean it goes almost across children, you know, not just neurodiverse children, but neurotypical children too. You just can't sit still forever as a child, you know, and it's making making our classrooms a better place to learn in versus comply and conform in yeah, absolutely, Absolutely and it depends on the school completely as well.
Dr Olivia Kessel :But I think there's a huge need to break the kind of prejudices around what's quote-unquote bad behavior, because it isn't that the behavior is Is the tip of the iceberg. It's not actually getting to the cause of it. And then you know, you go down a behavior policy and you miss. You miss the whole point. Basically.
Cathy Shilling:Absolutely, absolutely, and I've seen that you know lots of times. You know there's so many good examples, I think, now in schools and I think there is a big cultural change going on which is really positive, but it is we're just the tip of the iceberg, like you say, yeah and it's, it's.
Dr Olivia Kessel :It's those children that are lucky enough to go to those schools that you were mentioning and you know, yeah, that benefit from that. How can a school be more affirming in terms of speech and language? You've mentioned some of the you know for motion breaks and stuff like that, but some examples from maybe the schools that you've worked in in terms of what, what, what Educators can do, some maybe simple hacks, and and then also what parents can do at home as well, because there's there's both parts. It's not just education, it's also in the home as well.
Cathy Shilling:Yeah, I think, being aware of our own Expectations and you know where we, where we're coming from.
Cathy Shilling:I think one of the first things that I find the most supportive is connecting with that child is truly finding out, maybe, what their preferences are, whether that be their special interests, whether that be their sensory preferences. Do they know that those are their sensory preferences and so you know? I think connection and supporting students, whether they be tiny or or secondary age, with self-advocacy, being able to say I need this. This is what helps me to feel calm, this is what helps me to feel safe, and Some of those might be, for example, opportunity to climb. I've got a little, a really tiny little boy that I'm seeing at the moment and and Sort of through discussion with his parents, we worked out that he really needed to Engage his vestibular and proprioceptive Sensory system so that muscle activation, that balance, that feeling of body in space, and so he really benefited and I'm not an occupational therapist, so all the occupational therapists are sort of shouting at the the screens now I know a little tiny bit and we worked out that actually one of the things that really helped him to feel calm and then like a really activated his communication was movement. So quite often we do either incorporate climbing Into a session. So if he was at home or at nursery we'd go on the climbing frame. We're just setting up a sensory room at the speech then so that we can really support these, these children's needs. But by doing that a we got more communication from him and then subsequently afterwards he was really calm and regulated and, you know, able to connect much. We were able to connect really easily.
Cathy Shilling:I think Sort of abandoning our own agendas sometimes, which I really appreciate in the classroom can be quite, can be really challenging when you've got 32 children there. But if we're thinking about making that connection, sometimes some time spent In a more child led way, thinking about what that child's interests are, their play may look really different to some of their peers play, but you know for it. You know, sometimes we see our students say lining things up. I and perhaps in the past that might have been commented on in terms of lining things up Well, I don't know about you, but I line things up. I've got a pantry and I'm really proud of my pantry and I love lining things up in like order so they look really nice because it's really visually appealing. So rather than kind of like commenting on that kind of because this is that child's play, I'm much more likely to say gosh, they really have a very strong preference for visual patterns and seeing things organized and what a strength that is.
Cathy Shilling:So, actually thinking about autistic strengths, thinking about what are those child's strengths, rather than perhaps some of the other bits that we might comment on or might have been commented in more, such as behaviors Thinking about their strengths, thinking about when are they most connected, when are they most regulated, what is it that helps them to achieve that? So, just in the example I gave of this little boy really benefiting from opportunity to climb, because prior to that, when we had sessions, if we were in a sort of smaller speech-den therapy room, he would be climbing on the table around the furniture because that's what he needed. But by putting things into place, being really proactive and not just paying lip service to sensory preferences but really making sure that they are part and parcel of everyday life routines and that they are built in, they are timetabled, we're far more likely to have really well-regulated children who want and are ready to learn and are intrinsically motivated because their systems are getting exactly what they need.
Dr Olivia Kessel :And it's almost. By giving them that outlet they then have a hangover effect almost where they can bring in and speak and have that kind of. They have the bandwidth then to concentrate, which is phenomenal.
Cathy Shilling:Which is like this. All of our brains, to a certain extent, are like that. If you withheld my coffee from me in the morning, my black coffee from me in the morning, I would find it really hard to work, I would feel grumpy, I would not feel activated and ready and focused. It would be something that was out a big change for me, because these are all things that happen every single day. If that's taken away, then, although I'm an adult, and even when I am feeling a bit cross, I'm fairly able to self-regulate. But it would be really hard for me when we think about the brains of our little people, who actually haven't had opportunity to learn all of those skills to self-regulate. If we're not giving them what they need, what they're expecting on a daily basis, that's really hard for them.
Dr Olivia Kessel :Absolutely, and you know it also brings up the point is when they've lost that self-regulation and they're in that kind of fight-or-flight response and we've talked about this before like communication, then it's not really the time for communication. I'd love for you to elaborate on that, because I love what you've said on this in the past.
Cathy Shilling:So when our children are really dysregulated, I guess one of the worst things that we can do is talk.
Dr Olivia Kessel :It's such a valuable lesson and it makes so much sense once you try it. But I mean that's all I would do previously with my dysregulated daughter was rationalize with her.
Cathy Shilling:You know it was terrible, and that part of our brain, when we are in that fight-flight freeze, is just unavailable for logical thinking. It's gone, and so we're far better to possibly use some visual aids of things that they may be able to access, but thinking about things at that time that do make them feel calm talking is not one of them. So it might be something that can be an area that is a calming area. It might be a need, a physical need to run to activate systems. It might be support with going to a different place so that they're not going to cause harm to themselves.
Cathy Shilling:It could be a sensory tent, I mean it could be a whole range of things. It might be putting music on, it might be putting headphones on to block all noise out. It could be any one of those things and it's maybe identifying those things ahead of situations, talking to parents, because parents know what things help to make their children feel calm. So it's that kind of like whole, everyone communicating together parents, children, the child obviously the child themselves is paramount and teaching staff as well to sort of share what does work, when are they most regulated? What helps them to regulate? How can I help with co-regulation with this child?
Dr Olivia Kessel :And I mean the power of silence as well, just being there and just being there and be willing to sit with them with it. It's hard as a parent and, I'm sure, as an educator, but I've even had my daughter say thank you, mommy, that's just what I needed. That's what she needed is just to have someone sit with her and be there, quiet, not talking.
Cathy Shilling:And I think that's something both as a parent and as a speech and language therapist over the years that I've learned and not just with regulation, with sort of when I'm connecting with children and creating communicative opportunities is actually silence is really golden. When we keep talking with some of our young children we can almost like over talk but we don't give them processing time so we're not actually truly authentically offering child led sessions or child led play, because by talking we start to change that dynamic sometimes and that's been a really big learning curve for me over the last few years with working with the autistic children who are Gestalt Language Processors.
Dr Olivia Kessel :Yeah, tell us a little bit about Gestalt language processing for those of us who don't know that much about it.
Cathy Shilling:So Gestalt language processing is another style of language acquisition. So many of us have children who started learning language by picking up words. They were word babies. They picked up maybe some sounds to begin with and single words. Then they started putting two words together, then maybe three, then there was grammar starting to develop and they were there what we refer to as analytical language learners.
Cathy Shilling:But there's another type of language learner which is Gestalt language learners, and these children learn language through the musicality, through intonation. They often refer to them as intonation babies. They pick up on the emotion of language and learn it in whole chunks. So what we may well hear is a whole chunk. For example, come on, let's jump in muddy puddles. This is a learnt chunk from Peppa Pig and it's communicative for that child. It may well not and quite frequently doesn't mean exactly.
Cathy Shilling:As I've said, how can we tell if that child is a Gestalt language processor? It's quite often highlighted by them using scripts. Or you might have heard the word echolalia, delayed echolalia, where a child is repeating a word, a short phrase or even much longer chunks of information. The beat, even with the same intonation patterns, and so that, for example, let's go and jump in muddy puddles doesn't necessarily mean I want to go and jump in a muddy puddle. What happened on that day when that little person heard let's go jump in muddy puddles is that that was really funny. So every time that something really funny happened, this particular boy used to say let's jump in muddy puddles. And that just meant I think this is really funny. So what would we do? We'd say, oh, that's so funny, let's get jumping muddy puddles. We're always acknowledging these scripts and these children go through various stages as described by Marge Blanc, with the natural language acquisition framework, some great websites, the Natural Communication Development Centre that's Marge Blanc's website and meaningful speech, alexandria Zakos. Both have really helpful information on their websites and lots more information for learning about children who are gestart language processors. It's fairly new, I would say, in the UK. I first came across this term about two years ago and then this summer Alexandria Zakos came over to the UK. We hosted her the speech and hosted her as two conferences, one in London, one in Cheltenham for two days, and Marge Blanc also input to that.
Cathy Shilling:So if we're thinking about autistic children, it's estimated with research by Barry Preasant and Peter's that around 85% of autistic children possibly more are gestart language processors. We may not realise it because by the time they come to see a speech and language therapist it might be that they've gone through those phases. We may also pick up that they are learning language or acquiring language in this way because they're talking in. What we can hear is lots of speech, very highly intonation patterns, but we may not understand it. And that's because quite frequently they are learning scripts and they're learning the intonation and the musicality of this particular script or phrase or utterance that they've picked up. But their whole speech mechanisms and their motor plans for making the speech sounds haven't caught up. They're not quite at that stage yet, so we don't always understand. So we've got to really be detectives with these children and that's where that child led. Creating connections, not talking too much, is really, really important. Can you tell if that was?
Dr Olivia Kessel :a question. Yeah, no, I can. It must be really challenging in early year schools as well to accommodate for that different way of learning and understanding that different way of learning.
Cathy Shilling:Do you know what? I think I guess it is, but the last two weeks I've done a whole load of visits to preschool settings and because of this special interest, what I found as I've gone around is that they may have been doing things slightly differently but as I'm explaining and going through the kind of rationale, they're like sponges and they're so keen to you know these and they're so professional, so keen to learn, and actually in a preschool setting it is far more child led Maybe it's part of times to do the, to make those connections, because you've got eight children, young children, all needing your time and resource.
Cathy Shilling:But they've been so open and requested more information and I've just been blown away by how very inclusive these preschools are and it's just, it's been a really exciting part of my job this so far this academic year.
Dr Olivia Kessel :So they're like sponges, it sounds like, and absolutely With the. You know, it's shocking, I guess to me that 85% of autism, you know, that's how they learn. Then does that have a knock on effect on how they learn to read as well, or is that completely separate?
Cathy Shilling:No, it's. That's such an amazing question. What another way we can sometimes tell if children preschool children are um gash start language processors is that they are, may show signs of being hyperlexic. What do we mean by hyperlexia? That is, the ability to read um written language without any instruction. So some of our children starting school may well be able to read because they have that capacity. They are hyperlexic. They are more able to pick up the written word and recall it and um and say it than perhaps some of the other children without any phonic knowledge, without having been taught, and that's how they may be maybe picking it up. So we need to maybe think you know how we are working with them, and it kind of like also explains um, some of these children may also be gashed out cognitive learners, so they may be gashed out thinkers, so they think in holes.
Cathy Shilling:So, for example, a child going to school, if they are a gashed out thinker, may learn that whole process as a whole. So every day I walk into school, my teacher is there, she greets me, I put my coat on my peg and then I go into the classroom and I choose an activity and every day I really enjoy choosing the Lego. I really enjoy choosing the animals, I really enjoy choosing sticking. One day they go into school and those activities aren't there, so that has disrupted their whole concept of going to school or to preschool. So the beginning of it is the same. They go in, they say hello, they put their coat up, but then they go in and like it's all changed. And that's sometimes when we can get, you know, quite strong emotional reactions from, or it may create a strong emotional reaction. And that could be the same about any routine that we're doing where the child has learned a routine or a system, because they've learned that thing as a whole.
Dr Olivia Kessel :As a whole. Well, that's such an interesting way to understand cognitively why that is disrupting them so much, because it's not just one incident, it's a whole pattern of incidents that make up what that is perceived to be Super interesting.
Cathy Shilling:And so, actually, if we are going to make changes, it's almost better to make the situation totally different. So they're not associating it with something that they already know about.
Dr Olivia Kessel :Yeah, so it's a completely new thing that they're going to learn as a completely new thing. Yeah, wow, that is really really, really interesting and it's, yeah, fascinating. Now, one more thing before we wrap up this podcast that I wanted to pick your brain on is also what we look at as a disability in school sometimes can really be a sought after ability in the workforce, and I know you have some strong opinions on this. So I wanted you to share with me some of your views on this, because I think a lot of parents out there who are struggling through this now. It's nice to look at that light at the end of the tunnel.
Cathy Shilling:Yeah, because I guess lots of the young people that I work with now have a real skill set and being able to see visual patterns, for example, very quickly. If you are analyzing data, for example, being able to see patterns is going to be really important. Learning to code may require a specific kind of you know makeup. There are so many strengths in the students that we're working with. So, for example, some of the students that I work with who have auditory processing difficulties actually might be bypassing those by their strength in visual processing and show you know great talents with that. Not all of our jobs further down the line require you know certain specific sets of skills.
Cathy Shilling:I think you know it's really turning things around on its head and thinking what is this person's strength? How can we utilize this rather than oh well, they're not so good with, they don't interact like some of their peers do. Well, that's because they have a different style. Put them in an environment with other people who share their same style and they connect. You know so much. It's so much easier when we think about and so much I could talk about. Sorry I'm digressing, but I think that the key thing is is thinking about what is that person's strengths, for example, memory, for example. Not always, but sometimes many of the children that I'm working with they never forget something that I say ever, and I could just do with them organizing my diary for me, because then I would never forget things and that's like not one of my strengths but it is definitely, you know, one of their strengths. So, thinking about what children's strengths are and coming from a strength space rather than always a deficit, and I think that is really key.
Dr Olivia Kessel :Yeah, I completely agree. It's turning it on its head because you know it's taking what is perceived as a weakness and actually seeing where that actually is a real strength, and that's what we need in the world going forward.
Cathy Shilling:We do, we do. I mean attention to detail. You know you think I am so non detailed focused, but many of the children that I'm working with see detail, see things that I don't see. What a great asset that is in the workforce is being able to notice details, is being able to, you know, notice things that have changed, for example. That's not one of my strengths, so it is. It's turning strengths and really rethinking our own ableist views at times.
Dr Olivia Kessel :Absolutely Now, kathy. I always ask my guests on the show if they have three tips that they could give to parents in your layer of expertise of speech and language that those parents can take with them after this podcast. So put it on the spot.
Cathy Shilling:I know it's really hard just to think of three, but I think, firstly, connect. Make that connection and make it an authentic connection. Really make it about the child or the young person. What are you really interested in? What is it that you really want? We talked a little bit earlier on about when you were mentioning talking to me about one of your listeners who was interested in advice for her daughter in the playground, and one of my questions was has the daughter come with this? Does she really want to know? Because actually that's the key.
Cathy Shilling:It's often we're putting what we want, our goals, onto children. So the next thing is thinking about what would be really helpful, what does your child really want and when they're perhaps at a level when they're not able to communicate that Some of the first goals that I look at with very young children is that being able to self advocate, teach them to self advocate, teach them to say stop that, I don't like it, I don't want it, it's mine. Really important words within, in the early years and throughout life is being able to self advocate and seeing that as being really really important. So, making connections, helping children to self advocate so that they can say when they need a sensory. You know, sensory support, sensory break, whatever you want to call it and part of the two together is also being child led, is thinking about what the child would like, what they want to play with, how they want to learn, thinking about all of those things. And we're going to get the most from them if we really empower our children to communicate these three in these three areas.
Dr Olivia Kessel :It's so true, and it's almost like finding that key to really unlock, you know, the, or turn on even the child. And we use some great examples today to really put that in my mind of when you find it, how the magic can happen, especially that little boy in his climbing that's going to stick with me. So I want to give you a big thank you, Kathy, thank you for coming on the show and thank you for sharing with us all of your expertise today.
Cathy Shilling:Oh, you're so welcome. It's a pleasure. It's just lovely to share passion with other passionate people. So thank you.
Dr Olivia Kessel :Thank you for listening. Please take the time to review the podcast in your preferred podcast platform. It works with the algorithm to help make the podcast more visible to other parents, just like you, and if you haven't already started following us on Instagram, that's also another way to get more information about things that are happening in the Send Parenting podcast world. Wishing you and your family a week ahead of good communication.