Episode 52 *Bitesize*
It's time for the second in our 'bitesize' series of episodes in which our host Olivia and returning guest Tamsyn Hendry discuss and summarise past impactful episodes! This week they are revisiting Episodes 16 & 27 with Dr Naomi Fisher on the subject of self-directed learning.
This is an incredibly candid and honest episode in which they discuss the ways Dr Fisher's work has profoundly reshaped their own concepts of schooling and parenting. We talk about moments with our children we look back on with regret, changes we have made, illuminating the importance of self-direction, listening to our children's instincts, and getting rid of heavy expectations.
www.sendparenting.com
Episode 52 *Bitesize*
It's time for the second in our 'bitesize' series of episodes in which our host Olivia and returning guest Tamsyn Hendry discuss and summarise past impactful episodes! This week they are revisiting Episodes 16 & 27 with Dr Naomi Fisher on the subject of self-directed learning.
This is an incredibly candid and honest episode in which they discuss the ways Dr Fisher's work has profoundly reshaped their own concepts of schooling and parenting. We talk about moments with our children we look back on with regret, changes we have made, illuminating the importance of self-direction, listening to our children's instincts, and getting rid of heavy expectations.
www.sendparenting.com
Welcome to the Send Parenting Podcast. I'm your neurodiverse host, dr Olivia Kessel, and, more importantly, I'm mother to my wonderfully neurodivergent daughter, alexandra, who really inspired this podcast. As a veteran in navigating the world of neurodiversity in a UK education system, I've uncovered a wealth of misinformation, alongside many answers and solutions that were never taught to me in medical school or in any of the parenting handbooks. Each week on this podcast, I will be bringing the experts to your ears to empower you on your parenting crusade. In today's Bite Size summary, I'll be joined by my co-host, tamzin Hendry Sen Advisor, to discuss our key takeaways from Dr Naomi Fisher's episodes 16 and 27. Dr Fisher is a clinical psychologist who specializes in trauma autism and advocates for self-directed learning. There was so much in both of these episodes, but I think both Tamzin and I tease out what we felt were the best bits of those podcasts. Please join us. Welcome, tamzin.
Dr Olivia Kessel:I am really excited to have another Bite Size summary for the Send Parenting podcast, and today I'd actually like to take the opportunity to A welcome you and then also you're welcome and then also to kick it off of it, because it was really thanks to one of our Send Parenting listeners that I actually got to know about who Dr Naomi Fisher was and it was a request that I interviewed them and honestly I have to thank that individual because it really gave me an epiphany, because prior to this I really thought that education equaled learning and she actually ripped that to shreds. And through my journey with my daughter, I have struggled in the education system and I've always struggled to try and get them to realize her potential. But I never stopped to question the education system because I had drunk the Kool-Aid. It was in my DNA. Education is education and in fact I would go so far as to say that I thought that if my daughter couldn't survive an education, that she had no future and no hope. And that's you know.
Tamsyn Hendry:And also when you yourself you know I don't know about you, but for me myself, I had a positive experience of education. You know I enjoyed school, I enjoyed learning, I enjoyed that. So it's easy to just lump your experience onto a child, as opposed to standing back and saying is this going to work for them?
Dr Olivia Kessel:I actually didn't. I was at. I was going to America from England and I was very much bullied and teased in school, being a year younger and British, and yeah, so it wasn't the greatest experience. But my parents fully believed that if you were to get anywhere in life you had to, you know, get into the right school, get into the right secondary school, go to university. You know that's kind of the only track. Yeah, so that's definitely being part, and also being an undiagnosed dyslexic school was hard.
Dr Olivia Kessel:But you know, I never thought and Dr Fisher, really, you know, in her book A Different Way to Learn, just relieve me of this misconception and really challenge me to think outside of the box in terms of self-directed learning and being able to understand that children have different trajectories. And I think you know when your child doesn't meet a milestone it's like, oh, they're disabled, they have special education needs, they're failing. That's how you feel. And then to read her words that you know people develop in different trajectories, kids with neurodiversities might do things in a different order, it took, it was like a kind of breath for me, because that I didn't even realize I was holding, because maybe my child is normal, her normal, you know and so I think you know.
Dr Olivia Kessel:For me, dr Naomi Fisher really opened my eyes and really made me you know if I were to do things over again. And you know, self-directed learning, I think, is a fantastic option, although it is so difficult. I think also and it takes a huge commitment on the parent's part to be able to facilitate it, because in England we can't even have full-time self-directed scores because it's not legal, unlike in other countries. But I really changed. I really had a major mind shift in terms of her podcast. That was hugely beneficial and started me on my journey of empowerment and knowledge with other Individuals that we've had on the show.
Tamsyn Hendry:And my final point I'll start going In the next few weeks. We are slowly getting there with the other, which is education of the school is still in its really early phases, but there's definitely a recognition that for a large you know you know I think she talked about statistics of how many Children that are home educated fall into that neuro diverse Label. Actually, yes, definitely quite promising and I think it will be big in the future, with just in the initial stage at the moment.
Dr Olivia Kessel:Yeah, it's exciting because it gives you know, it's, it's a way to navigate outside of a very, you know, a large yeah, exactly. And then the final point that really also resonated with me was this autonomy. So autonomy and learning okay, how you learn and what you choose to learn but also autonomy in parenthood and it. It caused me to shift how I parent quite considerably as well, reading both of her books and listening and chatting with her in the podcast, because Actually what we want to teach our children is to have that autonomy when they grow up. And I remember her using the example of screen time and saying you know, if we constantly control our kids with screen time, when they're 20 we're not gonna be able to control their screen time. So what if we taught them, we've taught them, you know, to really value it, to really want it, that it's bad for you.
Dr Olivia Kessel:All the messages that we're giving arm are messed up, and so even with myself and my daughter's friend comes over. They love to play roadblocks and role play with it, and I used to say you can only do it for a certain amount of time, because they also love imaginary play and playing in the room and stuff like that, and that's what, of course, I want them to do. So instead I said, all right, you just do, you just, you know, left them to it. Well, within 20 minutes, they put the phones down, they put the roadblocks down and they started playing, and I was like I just have to let go of control.
Tamsyn Hendry:It's true, it's, it's. I spoke to an occupational therapist years and years ago and talked about screen time and she said to me Actually we're looking for them to find tools themselves that will help self regulation and actually if that helps with self regulation, that's a positive thing. And my daughter said to me the day, in front of a mum who is really really anti devices mom, what's screen time? I just want to go to bed later because you want to fit into that mold, you know. And I've got this mum who says to me all the time you know, if I could give up my job and just Run all these Rally is about how our children shouldn't have devices, that's what I do. And then I've got my daughter saying what screen time? People that use that use as a babysitter and I'm like, let's talk about it later. But it is very true, I've never done screen time and actually they're both really good with it because it's never been. It's never been a thing in our house it's just like forbidding yourself cake.
Dr Olivia Kessel:Do you know, if I forbid myself cake, there's nothing I want more in the world. It's all I can think about is cake, cake, cake, cake cake.
Tamsyn Hendry:Think of a pink elephant. Is that whole thing? Is that Immediately? That's what you want to think about. You can't stop yourself. So, really, yeah, I also Took all of those things away.
Tamsyn Hendry:I interestingly found myself quite feeling quite defensive at the beginning because my son really, yeah, because he's nearly at the end of his education in school and has hated every single day of it and it really challenge. We talked before about a question I asked myself a lot, which is what's important to him and what's important for him, and Also that question of I give him lots of choices but at the same time, some decisions are too big for him to make. Also, I believed, have believed for this whole time, but actually he, he did the best learning he's ever done during lockdown, because he was at home, because he did it his own pace, because it's not that he never did do math, he just did it all on a Monday Instead of throughout the week, because that's how he wanted to learn. So I found myself defensive because because everything she said made so much sense to me that it was really hard to face that actually there's a feeling that I may fail Tim and it's interesting you say that, because I felt the same way.
Dr Olivia Kessel:I felt like you know what, if I had heard this when, when she was younger, I would have done things differently and I just didn't know. I totally I'm on the same page with you there.
Tamsyn Hendry:And also about my own identity, when we talked, you know, before about Lots of identity that actually what I do for a living and leaving the house and going to work every day is really good for me. So it's that balance. So I felt when I first heard it I thought, well, you know, maybe there's a balance there, maybe they can Go to school and then we can carry on that, that theory of self motivation at home. But actually, fundamentally, when I when I let that feeling pass, I think she's absolutely right and in any work environment, you know, we pull on people's strengths. I wouldn't say to someone that's, I wouldn't say to Someone at work who isn't confident with the computer can you design me a database I would put on the strength that they're good at. And that's what schools are asking us to do do all these lessons.
Tamsyn Hendry:And it really triggered me in that I remember saying to my son you need to hate sports day and I said you know you need to do sports day because there's children at school. And I feel embarrassed saying this, I'm just going to say it because it's honest. You need to do that because you do math and English every day. You don't find those difficult and you're allowed, you excel at those things in class. You get to feel that Sense of prize and achievement, and there's children that struggle every day with those lessons and sports day is their time To to shine. So actually you need to go because they need to be able to celebrate what they're good at and and for them to recognize that, okay, they're struggling mass, but you know what they're selling this and I've had that narrative with him many times and listening to her, I just felt horrible.
Tamsyn Hendry:I felt horrible and so I would say the biggest thing I took away from her was that the intrinsic motivation that happens when you allow children to their own learning, trusting in the process, trusting in the trajectory, and I remember listening and thinking it was so brave that she had a wobble, she had lots of wobbles and I think that's something that's really important to me, that I think that's something that's really important to me. That's something that's really important to me that eight years old and they're not reading, but that's okay, you know. So I think that and trusting in them to have a natural curiosity and to want to learn.
Tamsyn Hendry:Sorry, which is my background, which is the role of the adult, is to support, to give opportunities, to prepare the environment, but not to control. Yeah, and.
Dr Olivia Kessel:I think you know the way that she said that. You know it's not like, are you just hang back and sit on the couch? It's actually quite a lot of effort from the adult, but it's doing it in the right way.
Tamsyn Hendry:Fundamentally the relationship. And I think for any parent and I feel I can say this quite confidently if we were having an annual review about how to our children, most of us would say it's all about the connection for them. They need to connect with someone when they're not with their parent. They need that one person that gets them, just like they have us. So the fact that the role of the adult in that way is about relationships, is about opportunity, is like a light bulb moment, because that's what they have with us, you know, at home, when they're most safe, when they are most themselves. Absolutely, that's really interesting. And removing expectation to avoid disappointment. There's a great Oprah Winfrey quote and I can't remember exactly what it is, but it is basically if you don't want to be disappointed and stop having a preconceived expectation of people and things and trajectories and that's and that is so true, and stop catastrophizing.
Dr Olivia Kessel:Because you do that as a parent. You know you're like, oh my god, you know, if she doesn't brush her teeth by herself, what the world is gonna stop.
Tamsyn Hendry:Yeah, and my son and I applied it last night. He was doing his math homework, so normally we would sit down and it would. So he'd sat there for an hour getting more and more anxious and I said to him would you want my help? No, I don't want you to help me. And it was that situation of I could do it when I'm at school. I don't understand why I can't do it when I'm at home, because I just feel really anxious and I can't remember the steps that were involved. So normally I would sit down and say well, let's do it together, do another two hours. That would end up in a you know a disaster. And I just went over to him and I shut the book and I said if you can do it at school, then do it at school, and if you can't.
Dr Olivia Kessel:Wow, well done, Mummy.
Tamsyn Hendry:And I because it, because it's that letting allowing yourself to, to say I've got these feelings. I feel really uncomfortable that he's not going to hand that in, but it's OK to feel like that and not do anything about it. Trusting yourself, and so, yeah, they were my top three Self-determination theory, the role of an adult with regard to relationships and and learning opportunities, and accepting that the trajectory may be different than you have planned in your mind.
Dr Olivia Kessel:Yeah, and you know she I've looked now on on line with Dr Naomi Fisher's website too and she has courses that she she does with Eliza Flicker who does the drawings, and I'm actually quite tempted to to sign up to one of them and they're not. They're not cost prohibitive. They're like 30 pounds because I think it is cracking open our mummy kind of mold and changing it. But when you do start implementing, as you've illustrated and I've illustrated, magic happens. You know and it was like, wow, why haven't I been doing this?
Tamsyn Hendry:I'm going back to one, one theme that runs through everybody that I've heard you interview is trusting your gut. And how does it feel? And actually how it felt, to close his book and watch his whole body relax and him to say but are you disappointed, mom? Oh, do you know what I'm really? I'm, I'm really not, I'm really not. Yeah, it's liberating, liberating for him, liberating for me. So, yeah, I think it was. So what came from allowing myself to work through the feelings of and I did feel defensive when I first listened shows how much it it made sense really, because if it didn't make sense, I wouldn't have felt defensive. Yeah, Really good point Circle.
Dr Olivia Kessel:Yeah, excellent, I think we've done a good job. Any any other points that you can think of from Dr Fisher? So I think her top three.
Tamsyn Hendry:Yeah, her top three. Her top three was, as you said, the, the motivation that comes from the autonomy you allow them with self directed self motivation. Yeah, absolutely, and it really reminded me. So I think people relate the quote to Benjamin. I love a quote Benjamin Franklin, but it was actually a Chinese philosopher and he said tell me and I forget, teach me and I remember, involve me and I learn. And that really, you know, that's kind of the message that I felt she was saying. Another, another one that that made me feel a little bit defensive but made me question myself and and is she's absolutely right is that emotional well-being is non-negotiable? And for me, my non-negotiable was you're going to school, so you.
Dr Olivia Kessel:You know, yesterday my daughter didn't want to go to school because of social reasons. And she didn't want to go. And you know what, I let her stay home and she had a day just at home and she did. She did math homework, she did some writing, she did other stuff. She, she didn't interrupt me at work. And then today she woke, we chatted about why she didn't want to go to school and went on a walk and stuff. And then this morning she woke up, she got dressed, she brushed her hair. She, she was just, she was ready to. You know, she just needed that day and I, I would have never, ever, ever done that before.
Tamsyn Hendry:Yeah, Now I, I do do that, I do allow. He has days and I'll say but, but the negotiation always involves but you, if I give you today, you will, you will go tomorrow and even the language about that. I will give you today to self-regulate, as opposed to, if that's what you feel you need, then I respect that.
Dr Olivia Kessel:So it's hard, it's hard.
Tamsyn Hendry:Yeah, so so that the fact that, not that his, that her child's and herself's emotional wellbeing was a non-negotiable really made me dig deep on that one.
Dr Olivia Kessel:Yeah, I totally agree.
Tamsyn Hendry:My core values are and, and a really easy one and a really strong one in my mind is opportunities without insistence. Yeah, and that that was, that was, I say, the biggest thing I took away from everything she said of and there were many interesting things but provide the opportunity, do not insist.
Dr Olivia Kessel:Yeah, and that's it's hard because it's it's it's how we were raised, I think as well. So it's going against that. But, yeah, all good points, and I would highly recommend not only listening to the podcast but also reading her books. Her books were, you know, just so so valuable to me and it sounds like to you as well.
Tamsyn Hendry:So thank you. This is someone that's got courage of their convictions. That's your lady, yeah.
Dr Olivia Kessel:Yeah, thank you, tamsen. Okay, lovely to see you. Bye, bye, thank you for listening. Send parenting try. If you want to learn more about self-directed learning, I recommend visiting the reference section on our website, wwwsendparentingcom. We have both of Dr Fisher's books for you to access there. You can also find a link to her episodes, which is episode number 16 and 27, to listen in more detail to discussion that we had Both of the podcasts you know. I learned a lot from them and would highly recommend it. Wishing you and your family a happy week ahead.