Episode 56
In this podcast, we talk a lot about the hardships those with ADHD undergo - but what about those who have managed to harness the electric energy of hyperfocus and creativity? This week we have the privilege of hosting the incomparable British impressionist Rory Bremner, who provided an intimate view into his life post-ADHD diagnosis.
We talk every angle of his journey with ADHD: from navigating the emotional rollercoaster that comes with a diagnosis as an adult, harnessing neurodiversity via comedy, giving yourself a break while keeping yourself accountable, and the personal decisions that go into taking medication or not.
We cap off this journey with heartfelt advice for parents raising children who march to the beat of their own hyperactive drum. Patience, love, and the right guidance are the cornerstones of supporting these vibrant minds.
www.sendparenting.com
Episode 56
In this podcast, we talk a lot about the hardships those with ADHD undergo - but what about those who have managed to harness the electric energy of hyperfocus and creativity? This week we have the privilege of hosting the incomparable British impressionist Rory Bremner, who provided an intimate view into his life post-ADHD diagnosis.
We talk every angle of his journey with ADHD: from navigating the emotional rollercoaster that comes with a diagnosis as an adult, harnessing neurodiversity via comedy, giving yourself a break while keeping yourself accountable, and the personal decisions that go into taking medication or not.
We cap off this journey with heartfelt advice for parents raising children who march to the beat of their own hyperactive drum. Patience, love, and the right guidance are the cornerstones of supporting these vibrant minds.
www.sendparenting.com
Welcome to the Send Parenting Podcast. I'm your neurodiverse host, dr Olivia Kessel, and, more importantly, I'm mother to my wonderfully neurodivergent daughter, alexandra, who really inspired this podcast. As a veteran in navigating the world of neurodiversity in a UK education system, I've uncovered a wealth of misinformation, alongside many answers and solutions that were never taught to me in medical school or in any of the parenting handbooks. Each week on this podcast, I will be bringing the experts to your ears to empower you on your parenting crusade. In this episode we will be joined by Rory Bremner, one of Britain's best known impressionists. He's a comedian noted for his work in political satire and impressions of British public figures.
Dr Olivia Kessel:Rory will speak to us today about his discovery as an adult of ADHD and how he taps into his ADHD as his superpower on stage, but also how he has to navigate some of the challenges that come with ADHD. Please join us for this candid and quite funny discussion. So welcome, rory. It is an absolute pleasure to have you on the Send Parenting Podcast. I know how busy your schedule is, so really, out of the goodness of your heart, to come and talk to us is really appreciated and to share with us your journey with ADHD and I know you've described it as your best friend and also your worst enemy. So our listeners out there, their parents, their educators, some of them suspect their children have ADHD, some of them have had children that have been diagnosed and hearing your journey and how it's impacted your life, I think is really helpful for parents out there. So if I could ask as my first question what made you go and get diagnosed in adulthood?
Rory Bremner:Okay. Well, this is quite typical in many cases for people who are, in old terms, on the spectrum, now neurodiverse, and frequently it's because a relative is diagnosed and they think, oh, hang on, this is interesting. I mean, I often talk about Jackie Stewart, the motor racing driver, and his son went for diagnosis for dyslexia and Jackie said well, you know, there's a lot of things ring bells here. Could I, would you, would you assess me? And so they assessed him and they said Jackie, you're profoundly dyslexic and 40 years of being sort of bullied and picked on and being humiliated by teachers just fell away. At the moment, I'm sure I think he burst into tears because he'd been told that he was stupid all the time at school. And heavens, this is a person who not only I mean, he was an international standard shot, you know target shooting and stuff like that, before he even got into motor racing.
Rory Bremner:So incredible ability and this is something we'll maybe talk about, which is, you know, the extraordinary ability of people with ADHD or, in this case, you know, with dyslexia. And he came about, it was through a relative, and they thought, oh, this, he just thought this rang bells, and the same in my case. So many of their characteristics and their diagnosis rang true with me, and so I thought well, this is, and I suppose I'd always thought of myself as being my nickname. My mother called me Scatty and I was, I think, some relative or friend who left the house and described me as irrepressible. I don't think she mentioned in a kind way, by the way. But anyway, there we go. If you and school reports about you know how I was just too do, noisy and too keen to show off how little I knew.
Dr Olivia Kessel:So has the diagnosis been liberating, or has you know pieces of the puzzle being put in place? Was it that kind of a moment for you, or?
Rory Bremner:Well, no, there's essentially about diagnosis Firstly. Well, there's lots. I mean I think of it now as I think of it liberating in the sense that for me, a diagnosis like getting, it's like getting a driving license, because it's like right now you control this thing, it's no longer controlling you something that you've suspected, and I think in many cases you know if you go for a diagnosis, you kind of know already, you think you know so much of what I've thought or read about or heard about or whatever that corresponds. And this is where the conversation about mental health I think is helpful. I mean, a lot of people say, oh gosh, everyone's got ADHD now or everyone's got this. I think it's all being overdiagnosed. I think that's not because I think it's been diagnosed.
Rory Bremner:People, you know we're different and I'm going back and back on this answer, but I will get to the question. But ADHD, I think you know attention deficit, hyperactivity, disorder I think it's not attention deficit, it's not even lack of attention, it's your paying attention to too many things. So it's attention surface and also disorder. I don't see it as a disorder, I see it as a difference. So what you're getting now is, in the conversation, people are hearing about different neurodiversity, traits and thinking well, maybe this explains why I struggle. This is you know people. I think so. It's healthy that people are thinking.
Rory Bremner:Well, you know, there may be a what, there may be an explanation or a diagnosis that will explain why I have been so impaired by this, why I've been overwhelmed by this, why I find this so difficult, and the diagnostic process can help you through that. And I say it's like having a driver's license that no longer are you owned by it. You have it, you've got it. It's not that you cure, but it is something you can manage, and I think diagnosis is a step towards managing it. We know that medication does help in many cases, not in all cases, but when people say, oh God, look at this, all this over prescribing, it's not. Nobody says oh God, have you noticed everybody wearing glasses these days? Is it just a fashion thing to wear glasses? No, it's because people have found that glasses help them see more clearly.
Dr Olivia Kessel:Did you know that actually the medication for ADHD is more efficacious than asthma medication for people who are properly diagnosed with ADHD? Most people don't know that.
Rory Bremner:Can I take it for asthma as well?
Dr Olivia Kessel:No, but it highlights the fact that getting that diagnosis and getting the right treatment whether medication works for you or not, it shouldn't be something that people are scared of, because it can help people.
Rory Bremner:My understanding of it and I have a sort of complicated relationship with meds because I went on the one I did a documentary called I think it was ADHD and me it's a bit difficult to find, but I did something for the BBC about six or seven years ago, maybe longer, and that's when I got my diagnosis. I was medicated, I went on before I went on stage. Interestingly, I've had it sort of slowed me down. I know Robin Williams used to talk about speed, slowing him down but because the nature of it is to help you to focus and concentrate on one thing. Actually, a lot of my stand-up is a bit of an explosion, a kind of vertigo, so kind of firework display, not always in a good way, but I'm juggling lots of thoughts. I'm juggling a lot of thoughts in this sentence, which I began about three minutes ago and haven't finished yet, on diagnosis. But I'm kind of at the same time because I think the dopamine is coursing now and I'm enjoying the fact that, having talked about the positive side of diagnosing and the affirmation that something that you've been struggling for a long time is a thing and it is diagnosable and you can do something about it, these are the positives, but the last plate at the end of this row of plates that I'm spinning is one that says that diagnosis can be very emotional. And what happened to me?
Rory Bremner:I got diagnosed on day one of the documentary and of course, a lot of that is subjective analysis. You know, you go through a report, you mark yourself in tandem with a consultant, with a psychiatrist, you're going through it and I was ticking every box. It was like a trip advisor thing and I was ticking every box at the end. You know, this is like do you feel overwhelmed? Some of the time, none of the time, all of the time, all of the time. So I was marking myself quite harshly and you know, do I feel overwhelmed? By thinking, yes, I do. Do I put things off? Yes, I do all the rest of it. So, partly because I was doing a documentary, because I thought this isn't going to be much of a documentary if after day one, they say, no, you haven't got ADHD go away. So I was marking myself quite harshly with that in mind.
Rory Bremner:But I was traveling with the location on the next day. I was on the top deck of a bus and I just burst into tears and I thought why? What's happened. What is this? And I know it was because I spent the whole of the previous day concentrating on my failures and as a performer, you project success and you project confidence, particularly all the time and I had spent a large part of the previous day basically concentrating on how crap I was and where I was failing. And I think that maybe something needs to be looked at because, whereas I think it's important for me to advocate and to say that, actually in the round, diagnosis is a very positive and empowering thing, the process can be emotional because you are confronting and admitting two areas in your life where you fail.
Dr Olivia Kessel:Yeah, and do they? Do they also, I don't know with adult diagnosis? I've been through this with my daughter. She was, she's been diagnosed a couple months ago actually, with ADHD and they, they did. Sir, I did survey, she did surveys, the school did surveys. I imagine it's different. So, and what was really interesting is in those rating systems, we all scored the same thing for her off, all off, there was four of us all scored within the same. You know, it's confirming and validating that she has ADHD by four different sources. As an adult, is it just your self Self-reporting?
Dr Olivia Kessel:yes, in terms of the diagnosis.
Rory Bremner:It is. It was interesting because I think there are two ways. And look at what you said. I thought so there were. There were a number of people feeding into her diagnosis. Yeah, okay, because I thought for a moment that when you said there are a number of people involved, that they were saying, well, okay, so if your daughter is like this, if they then wind it out, they will. If your daughter is like this, maybe your mother and your father, we should look at them as well, because, of course, we're aware that ADHD, in particular, is particularly hereditary. You know, 80% of pieces it's hereditary and 20% is so. So I wondered if? But yes, you meant that you're all, you're all on the same page.
Dr Olivia Kessel:But you know it. It is interesting that you mention that because my father, who's 81, we've always said that he you know, he you know, and he's now he's like I think I really have it, olivia. I'm like, yeah, he's not getting diagnosed at 81 and I'm in my 50s, have traits like it wouldn't get diagnosed either. It's expensive to get diagnosed and it's not gonna. You know so and, as you said, it's a continuum right and it it is, you know so it's.
Rory Bremner:So easy to get diagnosed. I mean, there's a no, it's not two or three scandals at play with ADHD in this country. I love the fact, by the way, you said 81, because that sounds like a sort of homophone, sounded like a dad. You're 81. No, I'm ADHD.
Dr Olivia Kessel:Well, I mean it's interesting me because through this journey with my daughter, he's looked at his you know, you know his life, his childhood, and he's like you know, he's like I really think meditation is gonna help me, you know, he's you know, it's explained some stuff to him which I think is really interesting. So he's been on a personal journey and learning more about ADHD, which is great for my daughter too, because it's it's not something that's Yet fully accepted in society. You know what I mean?
Rory Bremner:It's it's still it's not, we're still working it. And, as I mentioned, a couple of journey.
Rory Bremner:What is it pushing back? Because I think, as I said right early on, that it's really good we're having more conversations about mental health, but there is a strong pushback, people from people oh, you know they're all this stuff about, oh, mental health, and why can't people just toughen up and stuff that? And I think we're getting more sophisticated, we're getting more understanding and I think all of that is a very good thing. But so long as I think that but it can't I don't think you can use it as an excuse. I don't think it becomes that we we can touch possibly our identity territory here.
Rory Bremner:But if you then say I have ADHD and mentally, if not Vocally, you sort of start every conversation with somebody saying I've got ADHD, deal with that. I think that's wrong. I think I think if you have ADHD, it's you know, primarily you need to deal with it yourself and find ways to manage it in order for your own well-being and for your own Confidence and for your own mental health. You know you need to. I don't think you can Impose it on other people and say I'm like that, just deal with it, because you know that's sort of confrontational. However, I think People are aware of it. Then maybe they can realize, particularly in a classroom context, that this child is not disruptive and Chaotic because they want to be. It's because they are. You know, there's so many things going on in a child who's learning, who's struggling and, actually, funnily enough, the real thing is the people who, you know, who don't spoke, don't get spotted because they're not outwardly Irrepressible, they're not, they're not outwardly disruptive, they're just they're. They're the ones that are difficult. Spot, they had to have ADHD. But yes, there's about two or three Threads I was going to talk about We'll, I think we'll sort of touch back on those.
Rory Bremner:But yeah, so the kids for children in learning, I mean, you know, we have a system where you have to sort of sit down and listen and take enough and that's very difficult. I know what I'm saying. So it's a lot of the ADHD, a lot of the stroke struggle. The difficulty for children with ADHD Is it's it's learning anxiety. You know, and I mean we have a state in Britain at the moment where 40% of Children, 40% of children in this country meet the criteria for anxiety and anxiety. I mean, you know we are, we have a generation of very anxious children, you know, for lots of reasons educational reasons, covid and now, as we're understanding you know reason, neurodiverse, of which ADHD is one. I think a lot of progress has been made, I understand, on dyslexia and someone dyspraxia as well, but the ADHD thing is still a work in progress and autism as well, and even with dyslexia.
Dr Olivia Kessel:I mean it's, it's being remarkable with me when you know it's talking to us at dyslexic charity, that you know Even six year olds are showing anxiety because they don't meet up to standards of other children. You know, because they can see, you know I'm not, I'm not getting. You know I'm not getting it like other people are, and that anxiety starts building. So there's there's probably a huge other topic on just how we can Change the education system to support neurodiverse children is so important and it's a battle, especially in Britain.
Rory Bremner:Well, a girl was very good, you did a girl was Very good because he was a brilliant writer, of course a little critic, and he was profoundly dyslexic and the teacher sort of said look, I'm sorry I cannot, I'm afraid I cannot read your work and a a gill great presence of mine, he said well, great spray, that's your problem, not mine Confidence to say that. And of course, when you read what he eventually wrote because he dictated it and you know he had and he would just just, I think he would just talk down the phone and people would transcribe this wonderful stuff. So it wasn't, his brain was wonderfully creative, it was just that he had this barrier of dyslexia which is the. So that was quite, quite a funny thing. Yes, you do you. I suppose he would say you deal with it in that sense.
Rory Bremner:The other scoundrels and I think One of them is that you know the, the difficulty of getting diagnosis, the waiting times, particularly for children, and also now we're running into the fact that we are have got a chronic problem with supply and in the next months, over the next few months, we are going to see people who have a struggling we are with on, who have different neurodiverse traits, but particularly ADHD, who are going to struggle and they're going to be trying to get drugs that they cannot get From their pharmacy because they have run out. And I mean it's horrendous to think that people are literally going to be scoring speed to try to deal with their, with their ADHD, because there is a chronic supply problem which is, I mean it's.
Dr Olivia Kessel:I don't understand fully why there is these drug shortages. I used to work at a drug company, at pharma my background's a doctor and how that planning has worked with not only ADHD medications but also menopause medications, which doesn't get as much highlights, but also that can really be a problem if you don't have those as well. So it's interesting how, post-COVID, we seem to be going into these supply chain issues with drugs that are so essential for people's well-being.
Rory Bremner:Well, both menopause and ADHD have been talked about a lot more, I suppose.
Dr Olivia Kessel:Yes, absolutely.
Rory Bremner:Because it is so much talked about the thing I talked about very early on in our discussion just then where people are so aware of it.
Rory Bremner:It's part of the conversation that more and more people are presenting for diagnosis and presenting for ADHD and more and more people are think, are realizing I mean I can't speak for the menopause because I obviously haven't reached mine yet but people are being empowered and being understood and people there's a greater empathy and understanding. But of course that does also mean that people are aware that there is medication and as that awareness grows as a result of it. I mean I've heard mental health. I've been distinguished with guys who are saying, well, you know, whenever I see another program on ADHD, his heart sinks because he thinks, oh God, there's going to be a whole lot more people turning up at the door, sort of thing. But I think, well, you know, that's you know, because you dealt with people and you helped people. But there are more people to help out there and you're an optician who's giving them glasses and helping them see, rather than somebody going oh, my God, you know we're going to just overwhelm the system.
Dr Olivia Kessel:And also the impact of getting treatment, medication, coaching, cognitive behavioral therapy, nutrition, exercise, sleep, having that support. There are long-term longitudinal studies that show that the outcomes for those individuals incredibly improve their quality of life. They decrease their mortality. The impact on the individual and society as a whole is huge. I mean you are a success story of someone with ADHD who's used it, as you say, to go on stage and be a fireworks. You know you've got Bill Gates as well who has ADHD. But you also have 25% of the prison population which is an underestimate because a lot of them aren't diagnosed who are out of society because of their issue. And if they'd been diagnosed and given the right support, their trajectory could have been way different. So I would argue with that optician he's being very short-sighted.
Rory Bremner:But also, yes, you talk about these. Let's play the percentage game for a while. But in terms of we know that dyslexia, I think it's as high as 10% people think.
Dr Olivia Kessel:Yeah.
Rory Bremner:No, is it? Oh? No one in 10,. I beg your pardon.
Dr Olivia Kessel:Yeah, well, and it depends on which classification system you use, whether it's the ICD or the DSM, so it can vary.
Rory Bremner:One in 10 is, of course, 10%, I should point out for the mathematicians out there, but they think one in 20 ADHD, one in 10. So 10% people have dyslexia, and yet 40% of millionaires have ADHD or dyslexia. No, 40% of millionaires, I think, are dyslexic, so there is a higher proportion. Maybe it's because of the struggle itself that they've had to overcome, but people with dyslexia are, like Jackie Stewart, disproportionately successful. But of course you're there in the film, but I kind of have you have to thread this needle, though, if you're talking about ADHD and dyslexia and things like this, which is to say that it does give you superpowers in the sense of you're able to totally focus and concentrate on something that really grabs your attention. You have great energy, you have great creative energy, you have restlessness. You will take risks. That's a good and a bad thing, but you say these things and you say you know there are lots of things that I talked about being my best friend as well as my worst enemy. There are positives and, as a performer, it helps me.
Rory Bremner:Somebody was talking about comedy as shortening the logical gaps that you make, the jumps you make, the connections you make, the. So I'm great for all of that, but I'm aware of the people who are listening to me, possibly even now, saying it's all very well for you, rory, but I find it really miserable that, instead of far from being a superpower, it's actually a really debilitating and impairing, overwhelming condition, and I think I think the two aren't mutually exclusive. It's just somehow if you could find the positives, and perhaps, through diagnosis and through treatment, you can manage the negatives. Just briefly picked up, you went through very quickly. It's a lovely list, though, of the ways you can manage. Do you remember about?
Dr Olivia Kessel:it.
Rory Bremner:Can we just take two minutes?
Dr Olivia Kessel:Yeah, because I actually that was one of my questions for you was what's work for you? Okay?
Rory Bremner:You mentioned. Okay, let's see. You mentioned cognitive behavioral therapy.
Dr Olivia Kessel:Yeah. So basically I describe it as like a chair with four legs. And actually someone else who's been on the show, Dr Giorgi I'm borrowing his example, so he said having ADHD is like sitting on a chair with four legs. And you've got medication, you've got ADHD coaching, whether that be cognitive, behavioral therapy or other types of therapies. You've got nutrition and exercise, which is so important in terms of dopamine and getting that the right precursors for dopamine and then you've got sleep, because if you're not sleeping well and 70% of people with ADHD don't sleep well it can exasperate some of the challenges. So you need to look at all four legs of the chair to properly manage ADHD. In his opinion and I might, I would say you can share with two legs because I don't do enough exercise.
Dr Olivia Kessel:So you're a stool? Yeah, exactly I literally am.
Rory Bremner:However, and it has got four legs on it, good history. But yeah, and I don't do the meds because I'm still I'm doing this play at the moment and I was in the process, but because I was going through the ADHD Foundation, who I do lots of work with, and they were being particularly correct, to their credit, in terms of they said, no, we have to go through the process professionally and correctly, and exactly what they were doing. And I had two appointments with a consultant one which I missed because I forgot, did I Very typically, and the other one, I think which, which he forgot about, which is another thing, but anyway. So I was not able to Titrate, yes, which is important.
Rory Bremner:Yeah, which is that thing? Basically to work out which meds and what dose Are right for you. So I didn't have time to do that before I got into the play and I thought you know what? I'm on stage every night and I don't want to be Experimenting absolutely quite the right way but I don't. I don't want, yeah, I don't want to be titrating, experimenting, trying to trying out meds when I'm on stage every night, because I have a big responsibility.
Dr Olivia Kessel:Absolutely. And it would you know, like with my daughter, for example, we did it over the summer holidays so that she, you know, we could and and it and it wasn't easy. There was a period where she was in a really bad space and I was like I wanted to stop, but I'm like no, I've committed to this for weeks. We will, we will go forward with it. And then she came out the other end and it was I mean, it was it's been life-changing for her and for me, actually, in terms of, you know, she couldn't shower by herself or do things by herself, and now she is Able to think, okay, I'm gonna do this, and then I'm gonna do that, and then I'm gonna do this. It's, it's really, and she describes it to me. She's like she went to a painting class. She goes, mommy, normally I would hear the fountain over there going, I would see the dog barking over there. I couldn't do that, I couldn't do the painting.
Rory Bremner:And she's like now I can do the painting, I can, I can do the painting, you know, and so I had a wonderful I mean the best descriptors radio producer Up here up in Manchester and he we met when I was doing an interview and he came up so well, thank you.
Rory Bremner:I saw the documentary. I got diagnosed, I'm on meds and my wife says I got my husband back, which is great and but he was, he's very articulate, very good, and he talked about how Now when his wife comes home and she might have had a very important sort of home office meeting, whatever, and you know he would normally just he, just he just blabber about a documentary, he just see on something that happened. So now he knows to put the excited Labrador in the corner of the room, you know because, and talk, talk about her and what her day was like and all the rest of it, and to not just Overwhelm. And he talks about, yes, the excited puppy and he says you can dial his dose up, he can dial his dose down and there are some things he's doing where he wants to have access to the more let's say free, liberate, free flowing, free, wilder side of himself. I don't mean that sort of moral sense, but just free range, if you like yeah, and things where he needs concentration.
Rory Bremner:And can we have a look for people, though, who are watching this? But and not to use your daughter as well, but to generalize, from that, I mean what sort of? Because there's different kinds of meds, yeah, and method of phenodate my understanding writtled in methyl phenodate, things like medicinetic, whatever they could. They're sort of they are. They can be quick release, they could be so Reese, but really they get through the system within the 24 hours, did they not?
Dr Olivia Kessel:Yes, they do get within the system, depending on whether it's slow release or the short release will get through the system faster than the the slow release will.
Rory Bremner:In a day. And also people say that I have said that it's like putting on a pair of glasses. I know I've used the glass and glasses analogy elsewhere, but it's they say it's like. It's like putting on a pair of glasses, in the sense that they were able, you know, very quickly to have a sense of a greater clarity and to be able to prioritize, prioritize and focus a little more clearly. That's the case with the methyl phenodate. But then there's the other ones, things like Granfacine, which goes by the trade name of Intiniv, and things which are Granfacine, which deal more with the anxiety. I think it's my understanding and that is one where you do have to. It takes a while, a few weeks, to build up in the system and, and perhaps correspondingly, a few weeks to come down.
Dr Olivia Kessel:It has to do with how they work biochemically with your noradrenaline and your dopamine. So the guanifacine that you're talking about is a noradrenaline uptake. It deals with the noradrenaline, doesn't deal with the dopamine. So because it needs to build up in the system and then when you come down from, when you come off of it as well, that's why it's very important, especially with these drug shortages that we've been talking about that in particular With with that class of drug, that you're very careful of how you come off it as well. So the recommendation is to get in contact with your physician if you're on that. But even with methyl frenodate there isn't there, there is a buildup in the system of it as well that I've seen with my daughter and know about, and you don't want to stop that cold turkey or Go back on it at the dose that you had now titrated as your ideal dose. So basically, it's not something that you want to be Playing with yourself. You want to have someone who is a doctor, you know a Psychologist, who can prescribe and help you on that journey to make sure that you are Doing it in the right way, because it you know, interestingly, it has, you know it is. It's not addictive.
Dr Olivia Kessel:For people who properly diagnosed with ADHD, it has a relatively low side effect profile. It can affect sleep. It can affect your appetite, it can you know. It can affect your mood and and which you. We're talking about which one here? All of them, actually Not the ground for seeing a note gone of seeing can as well. All of them can Effect. The Guantanese scene is less likely to affect the appetite, I believe, but each of them are different in in how and how you react is going to be different too.
Dr Olivia Kessel:So if I were to take it versus you taking it like, for example, my daughter has no problem, it doesn't affect her appetite at all and Actually with melatonin her sleep has gotten way better on on it, whereas other children I know they really struggle to sleep with it and they struggle to eat. So their parents have decided, you know, during holidays Not to medicate so that they can put on weight and they can sleep properly. So it's it's really personalized, I guess is what I'm trying to highlight here, and there's not one treatment that is able to. You just take it and everything's fine. You know it is. It is a. It is. It's like HRT, actually the same thing, different HRT's work for different women and you have to try to trade it differently. Some might need one pump, some might need two pumps. So it's it's. It's not an exact science.
Rory Bremner:And you talk about. So, with the writtling which I've made from fenadate, that the melatonin you, in many cases people take melatonin as well.
Dr Olivia Kessel:Yeah, I have struggled with my daughter for 12 years to get her to sleep, and I mean it's, and when I say to struggle, I mean hour, hour and a half to get to bed, woken up at least three to four times a night for 12 years. Okay, and you hear all your friends, other mothers, saying, oh, my child goes to sleep. You know some of them after one year, you know, literally crying tired sometimes I would be. I remember having COVID and laying asleep outside of her door trying To get her to go back to bed. We started melatonin my life. She goes and it's slow release and long release. She goes to bed within 10 minutes. She's asleep. We take it 30 minutes before bedtime we still do a bedtime routine and then she stays asleep until five o'clock in the morning. It's, it's. It's amazing and interestingly, sleep is so important for people with ADHD, because if you don't get the right amount of sleep and actually wake up and you're anxious and anxiety, it then Exasperates your ADHD challenges, if that makes sense.
Rory Bremner:Yeah, yeah, do you know what you do? What you just did, then what he said, it exasperates your thing, and you meant Exasperate. I'm only picking you up, not because it's really funny, because I'm dyslexic, by the way, as well, and I'm diagnosed dyslexic.
Rory Bremner:But yeah, I'm picking up on that because it's it is exasperating. If that's what's so wonderful, it's it. That's a linguistic form. Yeah, it's called an egg corn. Okay, egg car. Give you some examples. So, egg cause guy in the course there. He thought egg horns. He thought a corns were egg corns. Why is that? Simple, because they're shaped like an egg. If you look at an egg or any thought for all that, you thought they were called. They were called egg corns. And so, similarly, my, there's somebody I talked about this. They said oh, they always thought when they have a bald egg this morning and they thought it's a boiled egg.
Rory Bremner:So it's a ball thing because You're right. You're more right than I am. And my daughter the other day she said to about Tesla, my wife. She came back from holiday she said oh, mummy, you're so brown, I'm white as a sheep, you're right. So when you say I find that that really exasperates my ADHD, it's wonderful because you found a word that is it's. You know you mean exacerbate, but it is exasperating. So it wasn't in any sense me being facetious or rude or impolite. It was how, inadvertently, you'd show one of the wonderful delights of language it just it's wonderful. So how? How have you? So you haven't been able to do medication because it's not the right time with your play?
Dr Olivia Kessel:How have you managed your ADHD when what's worked for you? We, we, you know we, we hadn't gotten into that.
Rory Bremner:There's another wonderful ankle my wife uses, which is people are always complaining and moaning. She says he's such a hypochondriac you. I say no, hi, no, no, so nobody always acts like he's ill. How do I deal? Okay, well, I'm slightly sort of I feel like at Charleston in this case, in the sense that I manage it by. I kind of manage it through being the, the sense of the community, through work, through the comedy, through.
Rory Bremner:I get sort of, you know, obviously, in terms of instant gratification. You know there's no greater instant gratification of people laughing at your jokes, you know, in real time. That's you know, and it's, it's a lovely, entertaining thing to be in. And so many of the comedians that I know and comedians that are in my, the agency that I with, I said to my agent I said how many of your other clients have ADHD issues? I think all of them. I mean you can recognize it like Lee Mack and you know, I'm sure you know someone said that he is or whatever Stephen Fry and other, you know this Catherine Wheel Brain. So in a sense, I don't kind of manage it. I kind of Revelling it. Yeah, I kind of use it. If you like, I use it and also, I think, is it called sort of not sort of high performing or something like that? I think, yeah, I kind of embrace it. I think it's kind of it's mild.
Rory Bremner:I think mine is it probably my form is more the inattentive form. So I will be bad at following instructions and you know, I'm the one who'll put the Ikea just to draw on the back to front because I wasn't reading the instructions properly. I'm the one who, if somebody gives me directions, go to that end of the road, turn left at the roundabout, go to the next roundabout, turn right. I'll say, okay, I'll go to the end of the road to the roundabout and then I'll ask somebody else because I can only think of one. I can only follow directions one at a time. So yeah, I'm in the slightly scatty, inattentive kind of thing In terms of concentration.
Rory Bremner:You know I had struggled with the play to begin with because I had a great fear that I wasn't, that I was going to forget my words, and that by coming out by opening night, the press night, that I was going to completely forget, I was going to have a complete concentration meltdown, which I did a I've previously did a Royal Variety Show and I remember going. I was saying my words on one level, but my brain was going why now? Why are you choosing to mess up now? Look at all these people out there. You're really messing this up, aren't you? What are you doing? Of course, if you're thinking that you're not concentrating properly, and I had this fear that that would happen. This was many years ago, 20, 30 years ago, and I had this fear when I was doing the play, because a lot was riding on it, because my face was on the posters of this play that we're doing at the moment. So there was a big, you know, I was kind of front and center with it and I thought I can't get out of this, I can't just like. When I did it quickly and I thought I can't, as a dancer, you can't do it on a Monday. You've got to do it by Saturday in front of 10 million people. You can't get out of it. And I was thinking, oh, I'm going to fail. What's going to happen? I'm going to get out of it.
Rory Bremner:And then I've worked a couple of ways around that of concentration, and the first I thought right, for I need lines which are in my head and I need to deliver them correctly. And basically I have this thing I get them in my brain, I lock them and load them. And so I said then, listen to the context. So you've got your words ready and loaded and you listen to drop them in where they supposed to be dropped in, those words. But when I found my brain beginning to go, oh, you're going to mess up. Oh, any minute. Oh, are you sure you know the lines? Oh, I bet you're going to mess up.
Rory Bremner:It happened to be a little bit last night for a you know briefly, for about 10 seconds. I was going oh, are you sure you can remember the next words oh, you know. And I shut, I have to vanish that voice from my head and think, just, and the way I do it is, I kind of I'm going to say, right, you're working on the top floor at the moment and you've locked the lift at the bottom so nothing can get up there. You are up there with the words that you need and in the context that you have to deliver them, and nothing else is allowed up into that brain. So I can now say, if I'm starting to say, oh, are you going to mess up now? So I go no, don't need that. I've got my words and I'm locked in the room with my words.
Rory Bremner:So that was one little thing, and the other thing is I'm being distracted by fire sounds, and the other thing is in terms of confidence on stage. And it was getting to the stage where you know that you want the ball, you want the ball, you want them to pass to you. Instead of going, oh God, oh, my bit's coming up now, oh, I won't be able to do it, you go, come on, come on, pass to me, pass the ball, come on, I know what I'm going to do, and that helps as well. So there's all sorts of little sort of probably quite childish ways that have kind of I suppose it's just little methods that you use to manage it.
Dr Olivia Kessel:Yeah.
Rory Bremner:But MEDS, you know, if we talk, maybe in a year's time. I would love to know, because, particularly because I talk about MEDS and I talk about ADHD such a lot now, I think it's a journey that I have to go on, because I can't talk about MEDS unless I've tried them myself, and so that's something I need as much for the ability and the permission to talk about it, because if there's a great chunk of ADHD management medication that I have no experience of, then I'm missing. You know, I'm lacking a qualification in talking about it at all.
Dr Olivia Kessel:Yeah Well, I mean, 70% of people respond really well, 30% don't respond so well, so it's a high percentage rate in terms of a drug responding to a diagnosis. So but I think you're right in that it's not the right time to do it when you have so much pressure as you've just described. When you are, you know, in the live moment of being responsible, that's not the right time to do it. You need to pick when you do it yourself and anyone else, and make sure that it's managed properly with you know, a clinician that understands and will work with you, because it takes a while and that you have the amount of time to make it successful.
Dr Olivia Kessel:And it's interesting because you know my daughter goes to a specialist school and she's got other friends of ADHD and it's so life changing for them that when they miss it or it's forgotten or they go on holiday without it, they it really is a, you know, glasses, no glasses situation. And it's interesting because it's also interesting to ponder as an adult and I've spoken to adults too who have that same experience, but also you've learned a lot of coping mechanism strategies, how to manage your life and your career fits well with your ADHD. So you know it will be interesting to see what what it does for you and and whether it works for you. But, and again, it's. It's because it is personalized and individualized, you know.
Rory Bremner:Yeah, I think, how to bring all this together. I think you know, in terms of you know Kind of wrapping up what we've talked about in one place, I suppose you know people who come to this and I'm finding out about ADHD. I mean, we're in a big context of people talking much more about mental health and Also, because you're coming to this podcast, because you're interested in this, it may be because it Exists in your family and you're thinking, either within yourself or your children, that there's something going on which is impairing their life and which is making things difficult. If I'm things overwhelming or whatever, in which case you might think, well, it might be worth going and looking for a diagnosis to understand why my child is being so apparently disruptive in class or struggling, or is anxious.
Rory Bremner:The diagnosis process we talked about being Double-edged, in sense of it can confirm your suspicions and say, right, okay, this is right and now we can go on and deal with it. But the process itself can be quite Emotional and then, once you get, once you've got over the diagnosis and you know that it's a question of Playing to your strengths and knowing these are the things you can do and celebrating those, and also knowing that there are things that you you can't do. I mean, you are as Einstein said, you know you're you're a fish and you won't be able to climb a tree, so maybe just find bigger lakes and things like that, and you know you can sort of perhaps play more to your comfort zone and To places where you are not liable, to be fair, to fail or be chaotic or whatever. So, yeah, and most importantly I would say To the family of anyone who has, this is really important not to beat yourself up because, as you know from your daughter that we have a great propensity with ADHD. If somebody's telling us off because we've failed somewhere, we've dropped something, we've forgotten something, we weren't paying attention, this or that, it's very natural. You know that people go have a go at you and and I'll cross with you, but you're really cross with yourself because if in yourself you're very, why did I do that? Again, I'm always doing that.
Rory Bremner:So, particularly an ADHD child, if you're whipping them Mentors, mentally, you know so say why did you that? Why is it useless? They're already having that conversation. So really important not to beat yourself up because, let's, your ADHD makes you who you are. There's a lot of, there's many good things about it which you can develop and examine, explore and enjoy and embrace, and the bad things you have to sort of say well, you know, I, I, it's part of my ADHD. I'm not gonna use it as a battering ram or an excuse, but I understand why I like that at some times and so don't beat yourself up. And the best I often sort of end talks of, this is the best talk, best Advice I had was it was a guy who's an accountant, his daughter gone through university and child she'd had ADHD, and I said how did you cope? I'm gonna be HD and he said you know what? We just loved her.
Dr Olivia Kessel:Oh, that's beautiful, it's a lovely way.
Rory Bremner:No, it's finding that deep and my god, it will you know how it will exhaust your patience. It will you know, and it's it can be lifelong the idea that it's just over. You know, childhood they'll get better, sort of thing, you know. So you know, I've seen it in the case, in the case I'm talking about that. I've seen, you know, the world of frustration and despair, but you know, you just have to hope, little, little by little, helping the management process. The coaching you mentioned was very good. How would you find an ADHD coach?
Dr Olivia Kessel:Well, and that's another thing just like finding the right medication, you've got to find the right coach. So we've been through two and then we found one that's really good, who she's connected with and you know previous life as a Senko, you know has the training and also has you know different therapies that she utilizes and they connect. And the eggs yeah, you can find they, they have, they have. There are Organizations called like. There's one called actually it was through I lie, it was through the diagnostic process with the center that they are the ones that recommended me getting an ADHD coach the gr Lee center. Then they recommended a couple of practitioners and they recommended an online, then called connected minds, where they they give you three coaches and you can kind of see whether or not they're right for you. I can send you details about it and actually include it in this episode as well.
Dr Olivia Kessel:And then what I realized for my daughter is she needed an in-person, and so I asked around and I actually found someone locally to me who's ended up being the perfect match for her. So, rather like finding the right doctor and finding the right drug, you need to find the right coach that works for you and then they help. They help you with you know she First the trust built, then through play and other things, they start talking about anxiety and then start talking about tools and how you know what you can do and kind of similar to what you've done yourself in terms of how you manage yourself. They help to give the or empower with tools and techniques of how to manage some of the more Challenging parts of ADHD good, yeah, well, I want to you know it's been such a pleasure having you worry on this and you know what.
Dr Olivia Kessel:For me, it's been insightful discussion. But it's also, I think, as a parent of a child with ADHD. It's great to see People who are successful, who have. You know, I know that sounds funny, but you know you want your best for your child in life. You don't want them. I didn't even want my child to have glasses, if I'm really honest, you know. So to see people who've been successful, is it? It takes that Catastrophization that's probably not a word either that you have as a parent when you get that diagnosis, and that's that's one of the things I wanted with this podcast to share with other parents out there. It's not a death sentence having ADHD. It's probably in your family, in you, and if you harness it right, like you've talked about today, magic can happen, and there are lots of things out there to help you with the challenges as well.
Rory Bremner:Strength, weaknesses, best friend, worst enemy. I mean I say you, just you. It's a lot of patience and a lot of love and a lot of understanding and saying, well, you can, you could help, you can manage this and other things. It's just, you know, it's, it's, it's who, it's who they are, and you know you will have and they'll be very special. You know they'll be very special and they'll do special things, even though they will leave you Exasperated.
Dr Olivia Kessel:I think that's a perfect note to end on. Thank you so much, rory, I'm so pleasure. Thank you. Thank you for listening send parenting tribe. I know I keep asking you, but please rate us on your preferred podcast platform. It helps us to be found by new parents. Also, if you follow us on social media or on Instagram at send parenting podcast, you can also find us on Facebook and on tick tock. Wishing you and your family a good start to this new year, 2024, and hope the adjustment and transition back to school is going well for everyone.