Episode 61
This week we are talking to the wonderful Lynn Greenberg who, along with her dyslexic son Jonathan, wrote the children's book "Robby the Dyslexic Taxi and the Airport Adventure". We talk today all about how the book came to be, its reception, and her journey with her son's dyslexia.
As her son is now an adult man, we reflect on how far neurodivergency advocacy has come in the past 15 years, and how much further there still is to go with early screening and intervention. We reaffirm the importance of educating yourself as a parent, and listening to your gut. And finally, we talk about empowering dyslexic children via the medium that often makes them feel excluded, and the importance of representation of neurodivergent people in books and stories.
Find Lynn and Johnathan at the Creative Cab Company
Purchase on Amazon Robby the Dyslexic Taxi
www.sendparenting.com
Episode 61
This week we are talking to the wonderful Lynn Greenberg who, along with her dyslexic son Jonathan, wrote the children's book "Robby the Dyslexic Taxi and the Airport Adventure". We talk today all about how the book came to be, its reception, and her journey with her son's dyslexia.
As her son is now an adult man, we reflect on how far neurodivergency advocacy has come in the past 15 years, and how much further there still is to go with early screening and intervention. We reaffirm the importance of educating yourself as a parent, and listening to your gut. And finally, we talk about empowering dyslexic children via the medium that often makes them feel excluded, and the importance of representation of neurodivergent people in books and stories.
Find Lynn and Johnathan at the Creative Cab Company
Purchase on Amazon Robby the Dyslexic Taxi
www.sendparenting.com
Welcome to the Send Parenting Podcast. I'm your neurodiverse host, dr Olivia Kessel, and, more importantly, I'm mother to my wonderfully neurodivergent daughter, alexandra, who really inspired this podcast. As a veteran in navigating the world of neurodiversity in a UK education system, I've uncovered a wealth of misinformation, alongside many answers and solutions that were never taught to me in medical school or in any of the parenting handbooks. Each week on this podcast I will be bringing the experts to your ears to empower you on your parenting crusade. In this episode we are going to speak with Lynn Greenberg, who wrote with her dyslexic son, jonathan, a children's book called Robbie, the Dyslexic Taxi and the Airport Adventure. Dyslexia still remains a poorly understood and sometimes stigmatized condition, and dyslexic children frequently can suffer from intense shame and anxiety. This children's book reframes that condition in a positive, lighthearted way, showing how a person can adapt and succeed in the face of the challenges faced by dyslexia. I really enjoyed talking to Lynn. She's based in the US, but I think a lot of the problems that she's experienced as a parent in the US is very similar to the problems that we face in the UK with our children who have neurodiversity. It was a really lovely discussion and I hope you enjoy it. So welcome, lynn. It's an absolute pleasure to have you on the Send Parenting podcast to talk about the book that you co Whoops there we go Co-created with your son, jonathan, called Robbie the Dyslexic Taxi.
Dr Olivia Kessel:It's a really wonderful book. I actually had my daughter read it to me because she's dyslexic and I'm dyslexic. She read the book and she's very, actually really excited to listen to this podcast afterwards. But she said to me, mommy, I would give it a 10 out of 10. She particularly loved the illustrations. So she wanted me to tell you, to tell your son, that she thought there was really, really good illustrations. I've got a couple of questions that I'll ask you later from her, but so you know, from a child's perspective, she really it really resonated with her and it really made her feel good about, you know, robbie the Taxi, who has dyslexia. So what made you and your son create this book and tell this story?
Lynn Greenberg:Well, thank you so much for having me, and John is in a graduate art program, so I will absolutely tell him he's sorry he couldn't be here. But the reason, part of the reason we wrote this book is just because of what you're saying about your daughter. We felt, like you know, john as a child felt like he didn't have a community until he we found a school that was perfect for him and he felt he was not acknowledged. You know nicely properly, he felt people treated him less than and he did not want that for anybody else. And so part of the reason we wrote this book was because we wanted children to see themselves in a book, in a children's book, and we've gotten so much positive feedback from children, from parents, from educators I've gone into, we've gone into schools to read, and the amount of positive feedback from children who are dyslexic, from educators and parents, but also from those who are not and who wanted to know more about it, has been amazing.
Dr Olivia Kessel:Yeah, you know it's a. She actually said you know, I promised her that after we finished this podcast that I would let her bring her book, this book into it will become her book and she could take it into her school, because she's also at a specialist independent school which is for dyslexic children and other neurodiversities as well. But it's. It's really challenging, I think, for kids and I'd love to hear your experience with your son where they are made to feel lesser in school. What was you know, or you know to be the stupid one or the one that's reading the books that aren't the same as other people? You know what was your, you know what was your experience? And then how did you go about finding the right school where he, you know, did flourish?
Lynn Greenberg:So John is my youngest of four children and I know every child. We all know children learn differently, but John just was not really following any path that made sense to me. I was confused. I knew that he was very smart. He could tell me, by like three years old, every Thomas the Tank Engine, their name, but he could not tell me that Thomas started with T and I thought, you know, this is just. I don't understand. He didn't want to sing the ABC song, he couldn't like the milestones that we consider you know normal and you know we were told in nursery school and in kindergarten and I know you're in England, I'm not quite sure how you're- great Nursery is the same, and then reception.
Lynn Greenberg:Okay, there you go. So when he by the you know three, four, five he was, I was told you know, he's a boy, he's so smart, he's, you know, less than. And we thought that's just not true. We just know that's not true. So we started to investigate. I have a great friend who's a pediatrician. I asked her, I asked his pediatrician and we finally got him tested, because the school didn't want to do that. And classic, dyslexic, super smart, just needed to learn how to read differently. And you know, as you said, people don't really understand. And he's 24 now. Even back then it was worse. It's not super now but they just did not know how to figure out what was different about him and they only called it a problem, not his superpower, which we've come to find it to be.
Dr Olivia Kessel:Yeah, and it's unfortunately. It's the child's problem, it's not the. You know I also. I'm much older than your son, almost double his well, not quite double, I shouldn't age myself that much. But I also, you know, I remember I was educated in the US in the seventh grade, you know, having my mom be brought into the school and they asked if I was retarded by what I had written for an essay, but never tested me, for you know.
Lynn Greenberg:No, it's easier to say something negative than to try to figure it out, and I think part of the problem is, you know, there are just way too many students in each classroom and the teachers can't handle it. But also, quite fairly and honestly, they're not given the teachers are just not given a great sense of what is different, what to look for, how to maybe see which kind of what neurodiverse sort of issues a child might have. They just label them all as in a negative way. Yeah, so when we figured out what the issue was, even the learning specialist said to me I cannot help him, I don't know how to teach a dyslexic child. You need to pull him out and try to find something that will be more beneficial to him, and that's how we found the school that we found for him.
Dr Olivia Kessel:Was it a specialist, like dyslexic school? Specifically yes and yeah.
Lynn Greenberg:Yeah, so I live in Connecticut, near New York, and this school was in New York, about 45 minutes away, and you know they only teach children with dyslexia or a language-based learning issue. And we made the family decision because, as I said, I have three older children. We made a family decision to send him to this school, which meant I would be driving a lot and you know we decided we're going to eat a lot of peanut butter and jelly because it was a private school. And we made a family decision to really do this because we felt it was so important to give him the tools to learn how to read.
Dr Olivia Kessel:Yeah, you know I might. Your story resonates so much of my own story but across the pond in England, my daughter also. The school is 45 minutes to an hour away, depending on good traffic, and you know. That's four hours a day, driving sometimes.
Lynn Greenberg:Yes, yes, oh, trust me. And and the gas and the the wear and tear on the car and we, we made the best of it. We listened to books on tape in the car, which is how we became. You know, we're a big reading family, so that was John's introduction as well.
Dr Olivia Kessel:And when did you guys decide that, okay, we're gonna, we're gonna bring this together. Maybe you could give us like a little synopsis as well of Robbie, the dyslexic taxi you know had. You know were you. How did how did it come into fruition that you decided, okay, we're gonna, we're gonna do this?
Lynn Greenberg:So during COVID, when a lot of people were, you know, baking and doing things, john was home from college, or our college, whatever, and as a as an art major, it's pretty hard to do art virtually. So we decided and I was also at the same time reading on FaceTime to my grandchildren so we we thought, you know, how could we use our time Maybe a little more creatively? And we started to talk about a book and a Children's book, because John wanted to see himself represented in children's, in children's picture books. So we thought, well, what kind of character might have trouble if it was dyslexic and couldn't read this, you know, couldn't read? And we thought a car. You know, if a car hadn't memorized a route, how would it get from here to there? And so we started to explore all that and that's how Robbie the dyslexic taxi was born.
Dr Olivia Kessel:Wow, that's a. That's an incredibly productive way to spend lockdown, I must say.
Lynn Greenberg:You know, we weren't sure what was going to come of it. But I have a friend who's a book designer and when we finished I said what do you think? And she said it's adorable, the pictures are wonderful. I mean, john's artwork is amazing. I'm, you know, besides being his mother, who's super proud. I think it really resonates the.
Dr Olivia Kessel:The pictures really resonate with people and Absolutely my daughter loved them absolutely love them you know what I mean and you know she's like I love the way, like there's one where that has the airport, you know picture. But he can't read the word. She's like that's so clever, mommy, that's so clever.
Lynn Greenberg:I'm going to tell him. But that's what we were hoping, and the reception has been so amazing that we've decided to write a whole series With other neurodiverse issues.
Dr Olivia Kessel:That's just what her question was. She was like well, there's so many other cars in the lot there. They could. You know. One could have ADHD and one could have autism and you know what it's.
Lynn Greenberg:That's exactly so. He works at the creative cab company and Other other cars and taxis and trucks are going to have different issues in different books and we're actually talking about doing ADHD then as the next book because, as you know, there are so many Comorbidities with all these different neurodiverse.
Dr Olivia Kessel:Because 50% of kids with ADHD have dyslexia. And then 20 to 30% of kids with dyslexia have ADHD. So it's and my daughter actually just got diagnosed this year with ADHD, which explained a lot of some of the other issues that were going on that that wasn't being explained by the dyslexia. So, yeah, it's, that's a wonder, but she'll be very excited to hear that you guys are gonna be, you know, bringing out the other cars in the, in the creative cab companies.
Lynn Greenberg:Lot yes, we are. And when we actually do readings in school sometimes and we went back to the school that John went to To read the book and he answered questions Treated like a rock star. It was amazing. They were so happy and and they, you know everyone asked Are you doing a next book? And when John said yes, we're gonna do it. It's probably ADHD. They were like yay, because, as you said, so many of them have both. And, um, they definitely it. It hit a. It hit a good place, a nerve for them and they were like, yes, you know, we're seeing again.
Dr Olivia Kessel:Yeah, you know, it's because I think you know your, your, your son's story and my daughter's story and many kids stories out there is the books become not fun and you know it's something that's really struggling and it's it's not enjoyable and it's painful and it's you know. Then to have a book which is about you, that is, you know, having someone else having to do it, it makes some love to love that book which is, you know, once, once you can get. My daughter went to a presentation with their school with a dyslexic writer and seeing that dyslexic writer who had made a book, she was like, well, maybe I could do a book and she's written that. She started writing little stories herself using Microsoft and dictation and because, you know, another great thing about kids with neurodiversities is they're very creative, so they have great imaginations, and seeing other people be successful at it who are dyslexic as well is very inspiring.
Lynn Greenberg:John. John says now what was was told to him as a negative. He's like no, no, it's my superpower. Artists is superpower and all the kids that he went to school with. He was there for about four years and then went to you know a traditional of you know regular school because he was remediated. But every child in that school has done something amazing and use their dyslexia as their superpower. He is a friend who's an engineer and someone who works at NASA and, you know, like amazing, amazingly creative people because they learn to think outside the box and to use their skills in different ways that other people might not think about.
Dr Olivia Kessel:And they have to be incredibly resilient. I think 60% of all self-made millionaires have ADHD and I think the numbers are up there with dyslexics as well. So I mean it's, it is really a superpower. And I know, because some people say, oh, you know, you call it a superpower, my father, my father, actually, he's like superpower. It's not a superpower and I'm like actually it is. You know, it actually is.
Lynn Greenberg:It is, it is, and you know, Richard Branson, there's so many people I can start taking Einstein. There's so many people who are outrageously smart Leonardo da Vinci, Leonardo da Vinci, we could. You know. There are so many authors and actors and illustrators, and they're all very creative in their own way, and yeah, so it's definitely not a negative. It's only a negative when people are made to feel that way about themselves.
Dr Olivia Kessel:I think, and sadly, the education system in my generation and it sounds like in your generation and to a degree still in this generation it is it is still a struggle and it's sad to me because you know, if you look at, let's say, airports or hotels, they are all very accommodating towards neurodiversity and differences and making it okay for everyone to be able to spend their money in those environments, but they're not so willing in education and they're not so willing in healthcare?
Lynn Greenberg:No, not at all. It's very hard for people to get the resources they need, and here I don't know how it is for you. Part of the reason we chose to send him to this school beside the fact that you know it's an amazing school is because the community really does not know how to, doesn't want to be bothered to try to learn how to teach children that are, you know, different and you know, I think it's a problem here in the US. Almost half of the people in prison are said to be dyslexic or have some other neurodivergent issue, and they weren't taught how to read, how to write, how to do the things that they needed to be successful, and they chose a path that was very unfortunate for them, and I think as a society we really need to learn how to teach differences and to acknowledge that in a more positive way, because in the end, it costs the society on so many levels way too much to ignore people's differences.
Dr Olivia Kessel:No, it's absolutely the same in England and it makes my heart bleed when you hear it's a similar statistic between 25 to 40% and that's diagnosed. So you can imagine those numbers are much higher. And there you know our behavior policies in the schools here if you're behaving badly, you get isolated. You can be put into isolation. It's one of our my guests has called it a pipeline to prison, dr Bagley, and it is, you know, because kids are being ostracized and made to feel different and they it's no fault of their own, it's actually the education system, not them. You have pockets of goodness, you know. You have others of school locally to us who teaches everyone like they're dyslexic. What a brilliant idea. Because guess what your typical kids learn to read as well.
Lynn Greenberg:Honestly, the Orton-Gillingham method that John was taught with is a multi-sensory approach and it's honestly an amazing way to teach anybody how to read. I had gone into my grandson's school in first grade and when you know, they're six years old and I read the book and we talked about it, because you know children are learning how to read at that point and they were trying to understand it and I think communication is so important and we don't do enough of that and they, you know, especially at a young age. If you are willing to be you know, if we teach the children that differences are okay, I think as a society, we learn to acknowledge it and accept it and do much better, and people will feel better about themselves instead of less than, which is so unfortunate.
Dr Olivia Kessel:Yeah, you know it's interesting because it's a benefit for life and actually workplaces are, you know, becoming more cognizant of the fact that by ignoring people with neurodiversities, they're actually missing out on some great thinkers and some great talent. But the people that work in those companies have to learn how to navigate differences as well, and they're not as equipped because they haven't been taught that, whereas in my daughter's school her best friend has ADHD and autism and sometimes they don't understand each other. So they've both learned about autism and you know they now you're not getting me right now and then explains it and she's oh, okay. And if you listen to the two of them talk how they navigate when they're not getting each other and getting to a good place, it's like wow, so many problems in the world could be solved if we all just took the time to understand people's differences and be able to navigate them, so that you can still have a wonderful time together.
Lynn Greenberg:Oh, 100%. I love that story. I think I really wish the world on so many levels was a kinder place and I think if we start with children, I think it can only help us you know and education can teach us Exactly. Oh yes, we could go on with this subject for quite a while, I'm sure.
Dr Olivia Kessel:And you know, back to one of your earlier points that you made, that the school was hesitant to test your son. You know, I still see that happening in mainstream schools here, even when, like the oldest child has dyslexia, the middle child has dyslexia. Oh no, we can't possibly test the younger child. You know that's their response and the mother's like, no, okay, I will pay for independent testing. Guess what? She does have dyslexia. What a surprise. You know, because it is genetic, you know it's. I wish that they would test for dyslexia like they do for glasses. When my kid was in reception she couldn't see the front of the board. I was, you know. I was called up and told to take her to an optometrist to get her tested. Why don't we do the same with dyslexia and ADHD? You know, and make it more accessible and easier for kids to, because when you, when you get the right support at the right time before that, they're made to feel less. Or you know because and that starts young, at six, that self-esteem where they start to get eroded.
Lynn Greenberg:You know, yes, and I think it's really important if if I'm asked quite frequently how did you know? And I think it's important because I didn't really know, I just knew something was different turns out my husband's grandmother was dyslexic, but nobody knew what to call it then and when we started talking about it, my mother-in-law said to me oh, that was my mother. And we're like, oh, okay, now we get it because it's genetic, so but I just I think it's. It's very important for for us to look at our children and not only listen to what people are saying, but to also get the the nonverbal cues from our children. You know why is? Why is my child acting out? That you know why is what's going on and not just assume your child is bad.
Lynn Greenberg:Your child's usually acting out for a reason and in this case for John, you know he would stand up and he'd walk around and you know, beside the fact that you know he had ADHD, he was also like angry and upset and was. He was embarrassed and you know people would make fun of him and and I think those nonverbal cues are really important and parents need to. Parents need to listen and to watch their children and not just take, you know the educators word for it if they don't feel something is right. I think it's really important to make sure they listen to their gut and and watch your own child and and see what can I do. What's what's really going on here? I don't think my child's a bad kid. What's going on really?
Lynn Greenberg:and I think child is a bad child, you know it's easier for them to label your child than to actually figure out what's going on, and I think I think it's so important for parents to really listen to their children. You know, no ego, no, nothing like really listen to your child. It's not a negative reflection on you. It's so important to address and I think, unfortunately people, some people feel that way and I think it's really important to see your child as the unique human being that he or she or they are and to really see what you can do for that child.
Dr Olivia Kessel:Yeah, and you know there is a. You know, I think probably the number one tip that I've had and I will ask you your tips in a couple minutes, but from most of my podcast guest has been, as a firm mothers is, and most of the more mothers, I have to say is trust your gut, you know. Don't, don't get gas lit by the health care or the education system. Trust your gut, you know, and you know that that little person is struggling and you just need to figure out why they're struggling, because then you can support them with solutions, you know.
Lynn Greenberg:Absolutely. I think it is important and and I think I think it is mothers, for so many reasons, and I think sometimes the the male potentially in the child's life might, might sometimes let ego get more involved than it should, and it's it's unfortunate, because we all want the best for our children and sometimes the best is a little different than what, what mainstream, might look like. And I think if you give your child whatever, whatever they need to make them feel as special as they are, it can only reap huge rewards for them, for you, as as their life goes on. I think it's super important.
Dr Olivia Kessel:Yeah, I think you know there's still. There still is a stigma and a bias that sometimes the male and sometimes the females too in the family can be led by. You know the kind of shame or you know the prejudice which you have to overcome that because actually, at the end of the day, that's just silliness. Yes, oh, 100%.
Lynn Greenberg:I agree.
Dr Olivia Kessel:But sometimes it's a bit of a journey to get yourself there.
Lynn Greenberg:It is, and I think in the end the journey is so worth it if you really watch, see what your child needs and try to get them that attention. You know, whatever attention it is I mean, john was so successful. He's a wonderful, empathetic, caring and creative human being. He's terrific and you know, I think it's so important to see each child, each human being is unique and we can all benefit from that.
Dr Olivia Kessel:Yeah, very, very good words and I'm looking forward to seeing the next books, as will my daughter will be as well, because I think that you know that this is just the start of your journey and it starts with kids. You know, because if it's normal for kids and if they're reading these books, you know it's, you know it changes the future, which is, you know, hopefully there won't be podcasts like this in the future, because it'll just be. You know, whether you have brown eyes, green eyes, adhd, dyslexia it doesn't matter.
Lynn Greenberg:That's what it should be and that's, I think, all the hope we can have, and I'm happy to share whatever I've learned along the way. And you know, I always hope that people get something from our conversations, because it's really important to find your people. I think it's a little scary when you don't have a community that you can lean on, and when John was little, I didn't really know anybody else who had a child with dyslexia or ADHD, and then then I came to find a whole group of people and we all had similar stories and it was really. It just made everything so much easier to find find your people and to share with them.
Dr Olivia Kessel:It feels very alone, I think, when you're in that before period, because it just you can just see that they're different, that they're not doing what your friends kids are doing and, yeah, not understanding it?
Lynn Greenberg:Yes, 100%, so it's. I think it's very important to try to find other people for whatever, but to find your community, because it's very helpful to have that support.
Dr Olivia Kessel:I agree. Now I was going to ask you what your three top tips are, but I think we might have covered two of them. But let me just see what. What would be your three top tips? If you could give to a mom out there that's listening, what would you say to them?
Lynn Greenberg:Well, the first is, I definitely listen to your gut, watch you, you know, listen to your gut and watch your child, truly assess your child from a from a vantage point of maybe not not listening to the noise, but just listening to your gut. The second thing is don't let people tell you, you know, keep searching until you find the answers that seem the most appropriate for your child and getting the help them that they need. And also, I think that help can be different for whatever happens to be the issue. And I think it's really important to do your research, do some reading, talk to your community.
Lynn Greenberg:Different issues, I think, have different needs and I think it's not always easy. There were people who tried to throw some information at me when John was little and, you know, try different glasses, try, you know, things that didn't make sense to me. And I think it's important to really do your research and read. And I think I think a label is important, not in a negative but in a way to start scaffolding and trying to find the information that best suits that label, and so to not use the label as a negative but as a positive and a starting point for your investigation.
Dr Olivia Kessel:Yeah, I so. I so agree with you, because there's a tendency sometimes, when you know, you know I'm a doctor and I'm still guilty of this. But if someone, if someone, if a doctor tells me something you know, or or a teacher, I found as well. Or or a headmistress, or a master tells me something.
Dr Olivia Kessel:I kind of sit there, I'm like, yes, yes, Okay, okay, okay, okay, you know. And you actually you shouldn't do that, because in your mind you're saying, no, this is actually wrong. This doesn't sound like a good idea. What are they talking about? You know, listen to the inner voice.
Lynn Greenberg:Oh, I couldn't agree more. Yes, so I think that's really important. It'll be best for you and your child If you really, if you really stand on whatever principle you know you think is the right one for your child. So, yeah, I, I agree with you. I definitely had to go know a lot when John was like no, doesn't make sense to me, I don't get it. No.
Dr Olivia Kessel:Next, so it sounds like you empowered yourself also with the, the, the knowledge you know, and that that makes it easier, I think, to be able to make those kind of decisions as well. You've that, your gut is telling you but, and that's you know. Part of the reason for this podcast is really to help other mothers get that empowerment and to and that knowledge so that they can stand up and be that advocate, be that warrior mom for their child, because they still need that you know, I wish there were things like this podcast when John was little, and now I think they're also like Facebook has has platforms and groups.
Lynn Greenberg:So even if you can't actually physically find the people, if you investigate out in the social media and into the virtual world, I think you can absolutely find some help and support as well. So definitely do your homework. I think it's important.
Dr Olivia Kessel:Yeah, and I think it's. You know it's interesting because there's certain groups that are right at certain times. So there's, you know, that angry group when you're angry about the diagnosis and you know, and, and then when, when you, when you transcend that, you can still be a part of the group to kind of help others along the way, and then it's time to exit and find your next group for where you are in your journey. So I find your community can change as you, as you move along with your diagnosis and solution finding with your child.
Lynn Greenberg:Absolutely, you need to pivot. I think you know, in life, in life in general, I think we all need to pivot and not stay on necessarily a straight path. And you know, that's Robbie. Robbie, the taxi needed to pivot. He needed to figure out a way to get to the airport when he couldn't take the route he knew. And I think we all need to think outside the box and learn when the road isn't going straight and we need to kind of zig and zag a little.
Dr Olivia Kessel:Yeah, yeah, no, it was an incredibly empowering book and please, you know, reach back out when you're next. Do you have a plan? Do you have like a timeline for your next adventure?
Lynn Greenberg:So we're in the middle of writing it and, as I said, John's in grad school and you know the next level of school for his art, so we don't have the whole COVID like sitting and doing not as much time. So we're definitely in the process of working on it. It will be out in 2024. And as soon as we get it out we'll let you know, because this is a wonderful platform and we appreciate the time.
Dr Olivia Kessel:Yeah, well, we'd love to have you back, and maybe next time we can have John come on as well to share some of his stories. It should be fabulous. That'd be great. Thank you Well. Thank you so much for taking the time today. It's been a real pleasure speaking with you, oh, and you as well.
Lynn Greenberg:Thank you so much for having us and if anyone has you know questions that I can answer, we are on different social media as the Creative Cab Company and we have a website which is creativecabcompanycom. People can DM us or email us through those platforms and we've had some wonderful questions and we've been really happy to be whatever kind of answer and support that we can be.
Dr Olivia Kessel:So that's lovely and I will include all of those links in the podcast information so people can just go directly to it, and also on our website as well, so that people who are listening to maybe don't have a pen and paper right now, don't worry, you can get it in the podcast episode afterwards, because I think that's fantastic and it's nice to be able to touch base with the authors. That's really nice to have that contact. Thank you so much.
Lynn Greenberg:Yeah, it's been really an interesting journey for us as well, so we appreciate all the comments and support and questions that we've had, so thank you.
Dr Olivia Kessel:Thank you for listening. Send Parenting Tribe. I have a big ask, and I know I've asked it before, but as it hasn't seemed to have stuck, I'm going to ask again please, could you take a second out of your life and rate us in your preferred podcast app? It should only take you a second and it really makes a huge difference in terms of the podcast algorithm. I want to get this information out to as many parents out there as I possibly can, and the way to do that is if you can rate that you'd like the show, hopefully, and therefore other listeners can have this material available to them. Anyway, thanking you in advance and wishing you and your family a calm week ahead.