SEND Parenting Podcast
Welcome to the Send Parenting Podcast. I'm your neurodiverse host, Dr Olivia Kessel, and, more importantly, I am a mother to my wonderfully neurodivergent daughter, Alexandra, who really inspired this podcast.
As a veteran in navigating the world of neurodiversity, I have uncovered a wealth of misinformation, alongside many answers and solutions that were never taught to me in medical school or in any of the parenting handbooks.
Each week on this podcast, I will be bringing the experts to your ears to empower you on your parenting crusade.
SEND Parenting Podcast
Celebrating inclusivity in theatre with Chicken Shed Theatre
This episode highlights the transformative power of Chicken Shed Theatre, a leader in inclusive theatre arts for 50 years. Susan shares her heartfelt journey as a mother of a neurodiverse child, while Charlotte delves into Chicken Shed's core mission to foster acceptance, understanding, and growth through artistic expression.
• The origins and history of Chicken Shed Theatre
• Personal stories of transformation through art and community
• The importance of peer learning in inclusive settings
• Insights for parents on embracing their child's uniqueness
• The call for kindness and understanding in diverse environments
Prepare to be inspired by stories of empowerment, advocacy, and the transformative power of inclusion. From Emma’s evolution into a confident performer and educator to the unwavering determination of her family, each tale underscores how perseverance and community support can break down barriers. As Charlotte and Susan reflect on the past and future of Chicken Shed, listeners are invited to join a movement that champions understanding and compassion through the universal language of the arts.
Click here for a link to Chicken Shed
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www.sendparenting.com
Welcome to the Send Parenting Podcast.
Speaker 1:I'm your neurodiverse host, dr Olivia Kessel, and, more importantly, I'm mother to my wonderfully neurodivergent daughter, alexandra, who really inspired this podcast. As a veteran in navigating the world of neurodiversity in a UK education system, I've uncovered a wealth of misinformation, alongside many answers and solutions that were never taught to me in medical school or in any of the parenting handbooks. Each week on this podcast, I will be bringing the experts to your ears to empower you on your parenting crusade. Before we start with the episode, I'd like to invite you to become a member of our Send Parenting what's Up? Community. It's a private space designed just for us. Parenting neurodiverse children can come with its own set of challenges, but it's also full of incredible moments of joy and growth. So I wanted to create a space where we can come together as neurodiverse parents to connect, share experiences and offer support to one another with no judgment and a lived in understanding. If you're a neuro navigator like me and have felt alone on this journey, then this is the community for you. Join us as we navigate this unique journey together. Join us as we navigate this unique journey together. The link can be found in the show notes or you can direct message me on 078-569-15105, and I can personally add you in, looking forward to hearing from you in the community.
Speaker 1:In today's episode, we are going to learn all about Chicken Shed, a totally inclusive theater company in London that has been celebrating diversity and inspiring social change for the last 50 years. We will have the pleasure of speaking with Charlotte Bull, whose father opened up a home for 20 children who had previously been institutionalized, where she also grew up, for 20 children who had previously been institutionalized, where she also grew up. She'll tell us how her father joined forces with Chicken Shed, bringing children of all capabilities together to create theater. We'll also be joined by Susan Jamison, who, as a mother of a Down syndrome baby in the 80s, was labeled unaccepting of her daughter's diagnosis, and she will share with us her journey to the Chicken Shed and how they now both work there.
Speaker 1:Chicken Shed isn't just a theater company. It also offers workshops and degrees and diploma courses, including BTEC, foundation and BA. Both of their journeys are incredibly inspiring and I know that you are really going to enjoy this episode, so grab a cup of tea or coffee, sit back and join us. So welcome, charlotte and Susan. It is such a pleasure to have you join me on the Send Parenting podcast today to talk about the Chicken Shed Theater and to help us celebrate its 50th year anniversary.
Speaker 1:Chicken Shed Theater and to help us celebrate its 50th year anniversary. Both of your stories are so inspiring and all the amazing work that you have achieved with the Chicken Shed really making theater inclusive and really also pushing social change. So I'd like to start out actually with you, susan, because you're a mom who's actually experienced the Chicken Shed from that perspective, and then I will move on to you, susan, because you're a mom who's actually experienced the chicken shed from that perspective, and then I will move on to you, charlotte, and we'll talk about how the chicken shed actually came into being. So, susan, can you tell us a little bit about your journey with your daughter?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I can. Firstly, let me say I absolutely love chicken shed and I think without Chicken Shed my life, and certainly my daughters, of my three daughters lives, wouldn't be as they are now. I've got three, three girls, and I had a six year old, a four year old and a new baby, and my new baby was actually my new baby was 41 yesterday, so my new baby isn't a new baby anymore. Um, anyhow, when she was born, um, unbeknown to me, she had Down syndrome, um, and I didn't know anything at all about. It was a huge shock to me, um, a massive shock, and I left her in the hospital, came home, didn't want to have, I was going to have her adopted, etc. Etc.
Speaker 2:But my daughter is really stubborn and still is beautifully stubborn in that she knows exactly what she wants and she refused to feed. So I had to go into the hospital to feed her. She refused to take a bottle. Into the hospital to feed her. She refused to take a bottle. So eventually I had her on a Sunday and then on the Thursday I went to feed her. I hadn't picked her up or anything, because I really it sounds awful, but I didn't want to know her really.
Speaker 1:It's also the time, though, as well.
Speaker 2:Susan, I mean, this is 40, as you said, what do you say 41, 41 years ago? Um, yeah, I think it, I think it's, I think it still is. Really, sometimes, you know, I think women go through, um, a pregnancy, hoping for a beautiful baby at the end of it, and every now and then something does go wrong and, uh, the beautiful baby that you expected turns out to have uh issues that you actually find it really hard to cope with, or just the knowledge of it. I think it's, it's.
Speaker 2:I didn't know anything about Down syndrome, apart from people that I'd seen in the street got this, this child that I really wasn't expecting and found it really difficult to cope with. The the whole concept of my life would have was going to change, um, and so many people then come and tell you all different things as well. Ah, down syndrome means I was told when, when she was born, after, soon after she was born, that she would never say verbs and she would never jump, which was the most bizarre thing. You know most bizarre things. Anyhow, I brought her home on the Thursday and decided I would keep her for a year and then I would take her back. Why that, I have no idea. Anyhow, as soon as she came home, she was as different as my other two girls are to each other. She was a beautiful feeder, which was great. My others were beautiful feeders and she was lovely.
Speaker 2:But right from the moment I brought her home, people kept coming to my house. I had various people educational psychologists, physiotherapists, social workers all sorts of people kept coming and saying, oh, I'm looking at Emma and saying, oh, yeah, you've got somebody with Down syndrome. Yeah, this is what's going to happen. This is what's going to happen. And I listened to everything. Really I did and I read everything possible for the year that I was going to keep Emma Bizarre, but Emma was, you know, she was great. She was a baby. I read that people with Down syndrome sleep a lot. So I thought hmm, that's not very good.
Speaker 2:So I used to wake her up. Every 20 minutes I bought a sling, so I did my washing up with her, I did everything with her. She was in this sling and I talked to her constantly because I thought that was the way she was going to learn. And I know this sounds absolutely terrible, but when I was 21, I had a dog and my mum really didn't want me to have this dog and I thought do you know what? I'm going to make this dog the very best trained dog ever. And I thought to myself, if I can, could train Henry, my dog. I couldn't train this child to be, you know, sociably acceptable. I had no idea what she was going to be like. Anyhow, during that first year of her life, so many people told me what would happen. One of the things they told me was that she would never be academic, she would never um be able to read, she would you know all sorts of things.
Speaker 2:And remember this is 41 years ago and um I was sent to a special school in um in in England, where, in where I live and um to see what it was like and how lovely it was. And it was lovely, but the people were mostly sitting around doing very little and the staff were very sweet, but there wasn't much going on for the people and a lot of them were just rocking and you know, it just wasn't very pleasant and I thought I don't really want that for Emma. I'd rather she went to an ordinary school. I live in a village and I wanted her to go to the same school as my other two, but this was very early on. This was, you know, she wasn't even a year and then after a year you have to go to a paediatric assessment. And I went with my husband, my husband took the day off and we went to this paediatric assessment and there were all these different people in a room and we were told to stay outside with Emma. And then we were called in and for about 20 minutes they told me what they felt about Emma and I didn't recognize my daughter from what they were saying. But a lot of them had only come in like for 10 minutes here and 10 minutes there and they didn't know her. And I kept saying, well, emma, actually she can do that. You know she smiles and she's watching what's around her and all sorts of things. And they went no, no, and it was. It was only afterwards that I saw on notes that it said that I hadn't accepted the fact that Emma had Down syndrome, which was ridiculous. Um, so, after that first oh, I then had.
Speaker 2:I then had a after this thing where we were there all day but we were only in the room for about 20 minutes I had a report and I thought, great, you know, I'm going to see what sort of intervention everybody wants to make to get the very best out of Emma. And after a day of being in this place, a 20 minute interview. It was one paragraph and I looked at it and thought this is ridiculous. So I became a bit nasty, really a bit radical, and I decided that I would take her out of the system and I would just carry on as though she was my other two of you know, because my three children are all very different.
Speaker 2:And, um, and then an educational psychologist came along and said uh, oh, we've, we've got a place for Emma in a special school. From now. We'll pick her up at eight in the morning, we'll give her our breakfast. Um, we have her there when we bring her back home at four o'clock, you know, brilliant, and I went why my others didn't do that and they said, no, this is really good for her and it's where she'll go, and we'd bring her back home at four o'clock, you know, brilliant. And I went why my others didn't do that and they said, no, this is really good for her and it's where she'll go when she's of school age. And I said, well, I haven't decided where she's going to go yet, she's going to go in the village.
Speaker 2:And it became quite a battle really, because this guy said your daughter will never go to the same school as your other girls. Okay, well, we'll wait and see. And then I didn't really see anybody. I just said I didn't want to see anybody again and I just brought Emma up and I used to work in the play group in the village. So as soon as I could, I went back to work in the play group, taking Emma with me in my sling, and I think nobody really wanted to say anything because they all didn't know how, how to how to talk about it really, because it's, you know, in the village she was the only person with Down syndrome, you know, and so it was really odd.
Speaker 2:Anyhow, he then got to school time and that was a really difficult time and I I went into school to do reading with my other two girls so that they would get used to me going in with Emma in her sling, and I did reading with the kids with Emma. I did everything with Emma so that people in the village could get used to her and see that actually she's not that much different from anybody else and it was a real effort to get her into school. But I painted the library, I cleaned windows and in the end they took her in school and I said You're resourceful, susan. I was resourceful, really. My painting skill, I did. I actually painted the library. I was resourceful, really. My painting skill, I did. I actually painted the library. I went on the PA, I did everything, everything so that it would be difficult really for them to say anything.
Speaker 2:But I also said that when she went into school because she went in with no support that if they felt it was difficult or if there was ever a problem, they were to come and talk to me. You know, don't have a problem, come and talk to me and together hopefully we can work it out. But it was a real problem and I wanted her to go to rainbows, which is like brownies, and I had to go with her and I wanted her to do tumble tops, which my others had done, which is like gym, and I thought that was good for her coordination. I had to go with her. I wanted her to swim, because I can't swim. I had to go to the pool with her. It was like this is really hard work and with school, I was going in all the time and my whole life was around Emma, which is lovely, but it was difficult. Emma, which is lovely, but it was, it was, you know, it was difficult.
Speaker 2:And then somebody told me about a theatre group where there are people dancing, there are people not dancing, there are people all over, all different people, and they mix them all together and it's, it's amazing. And I thought, where is it? It's in North London, okay, and I sort of didn't really think that I wanted to go to North London. I live in High Wycombe, it's, you know, like an hour more away. So I sort of didn't do anything.
Speaker 2:And then this person, who also has a child with additional needs, bought me a ticket to go and see a show in London, because Chickyshed didn't have their theatre then and they used to put on shows in London. So I begrudgingly went up to London and I sat down in this theatre and the music started and within five minutes I'd forgotten to look for Down syndrome and I think it was the only time in the the five years that I'd had Emma that Down syndrome wasn't in my brain. The word wasn't in my brain. I watched this theatre and thought, oh my god, and I really wanted to see what other people with Down syndrome were like. And I didn't look because everybody was together and they were performing and they were singing and dancing and it was. It was more than joyous. And I came away from that thinking, oh my God, that was amazing.
Speaker 2:Anyhow, six months later, the adult part of the adult and children it was all of them were doing a show called the Attraction. Again, I went to see it and I can remember it like yesterday. I sat in the audience, the music started, the lights came across and they played a requiem and it got my heart. I. I went oh my god, and you know that feeling where you're so excited about something, you don't want it to stop and I watched this show again. I didn't even see anybody with dancing or anything. I just watched a show that was a love story and it was beautiful and the music was beautiful, the dance was beautiful, and after the show I went and sat in the bar because I wanted to see the people that were playing. I thought they might come and have a drink and I sat there waiting for somebody to come in the bar and they did, and I could see these people all together, all talking, all you know, there was no difference between anybody. They were just a beautiful group of people that wanted to entertain an audience. It was phenomenal.
Speaker 2:So I got home and immediately I wrote to Mary and Joe, who sold to Chicken Shed, and I wrote a letter and I said and I explained how I'd felt and how I'd felt about Emma and how I'd come there, and now my life had changed because I'd seen this. You know, I don't need to focus. My brain doesn't have to think about Down syndrome every day. That's it and uh, and. And they Mary who, who founded Chickyshed, wrote back to me and said why don't you come and see a workshop? And it was in a place called Southgate. I didn't even know where Southgate was and we didn't have sat-navs then, so I got a map and I gave it to my eldest daughter and went we're going here, and that was it, and I've been there ever since I went. Well, we walked in through the door it was a church, because they didn't have a place and Emma and my Natalie went off into one room and they started, I don't know, doing a workshop. I went and chatted and, and that's it. My three girls went to chicken shed. I went and sat waiting for them on three different days, um, saying give me something to do, and uh, and now I work for them and I've been with them for 33 years. And uh, emma, my Emma now works for chicken shed full-time.
Speaker 2:Um, but she stayed at school. She was excluded from school when she was 12 because in here in England, no, nobody had gone to secondary school with Down syndrome before, apart from one little boy whose father was the headmaster. And when I said I wanted Emma to go, well, she did, she went to the secondary school. I sent her that because all the children go to the school in July, just before they start in September into the new school. And I sent her with the children because she stayed in mainstream, so she'd been with the same children from two and I sent her with all the children. Um, I'd already been into the school because my eldest daughter went there and I, I took her projects. Hello, I've got a daughter with Down syndrome. Is it OK if she comes here?
Speaker 2:And I took all the projects and the headmaster at that point went Down syndrome, what's that? And I went she's little, I didn't know how to describe it. I said she's little and I didn't know how to describe it. I said she's little and he said is she like her sister? I went no, she's nothing like her sister. He said well, that's all right, they will take her.
Speaker 2:And so I sent her there in the June and I think she'd been there for about 20 minutes and I had a phone call saying you've sent your daughter with the children. She, children like that don't come here. And I said I'm sorry, children like what? And she said well, he said children, you know, children like her. And I said well, I've been in to see, speak to you, and I brought you her projects and they said, yeah, but we didn't know she was like that and I went oh, okay, so anyhow, I, through the summer holidays, I bought her the uniform, I bought her the art kit.
Speaker 2:I bought her the PE kit and I sent her with the other children, um, because she's a child, and so she went in with the other children and then in the half term in the October I had a fax and I read the fax only once and then I gave it to chicken shed because I couldn't believe. It was, I think, like 30 pages of what Emma couldn't do, and I don't even know where it is, but apparently it's somewhere in chicken shed and um, and so she was excluded from school. So, um, she had a home tutor then. Because that's what they have to do, they have to send a home tutor. So she had this wonderful woman that came in and taught every morning and then in the afternoons I used to drive Emma to the M25 and I used to meet chicken shed team who were working in Surrey and Emma would go off and work with the team doing theatre and inclusive education.
Speaker 2:And because I do the press, I wrote what I thought was a really good article and said that my daughter, who goes to school in Buckinghamshire and has been excluded, is working in the afternoons in Surrey and how wonderful it is that she's actually working to teach people inclusion, but in Bucks she's not allowed to go to school, and I said I haven't given it out yet, but this is what I'm sending out. And Bucks then said OK, she can go to school, any school you like and we'll support her. So I didn't have any documentation done which would have meant at that point that if Emma it was called a statement and if Emma had had a statement, I would have lost my control over what happened with the school and if the county decided to send her to a special school, I would have to go to court to fight it and I wasn't going to do that. She's my daughter. I didn't feel that was the right thing. So she stayed in mainstream.
Speaker 2:She made remained in in mainstream and then soon as she was older, at 16, she left school and she came to chicken shed and she did the b-tech course, because they do three education courses. She'd be tech course, the foundation course, the ba ba honors course and she's got a two-two. And then she became a trainee with chicken shed and now she works in the early years children's theater part where she goes and she she performs to young children and she goes into schools and different places with the team and shows what inclusion can be like and she's, you know, she's. She's a role model for me and I think she's a role model for maybe, other parents who, you know, send their children to the early years bit and go well. Well, actually, if she can do it, that's fine. So that's basically my story.
Speaker 2:But without Chicken Shed, goodness knows what would have happened really. But at the moment I have no idea where she is today. How nice is that, how lovely. But she goes to work and I go bye, bye, and then she comes home from work and says we've had a good day, just like my other two daughters. So it's beautiful. And my other two daughters are both teachers and they teach you mainstream. But when kids with special needs or additional needs, or whatever you call it, go into their class, they're not fazed by it. It's a part of life, it's a part of how we believe the world should be or could be.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for sharing that story, susan, and I have to say I have to take my hat off to you, the most amazing mom who just doesn't give up. And you know I just love your attitude. You just didn't take any. You know I can't probably say a swear word, but I'm going to. You didn't take any shit from anybody and you just got on with raising your daughter one step at a time, and wow, it's so inspiring, honestly so inspiring.
Speaker 2:Thank you If you've met my Emma, she is. She is so focused on what and you know people often who have been given the title or label of having additional needs. We all want to be like somebody, we all want to be a part of a community and I think sometimes that can be a barrier for them by having that label and yeah, it's such a shame really. So she although you might think I'm not, I'm all over the place but Emma is totally focused really, ask Charlotte, I'm all over the place.
Speaker 1:Well, no, I mean, it is amazing, our kids. I think we are gifted with these beautiful children because they teach us. I think I've learned more from my daughter than she'll ever learn from me, you know. So I completely see where you're, where you're coming from, and that takes us nicely to Charlotte as well, because you know, um, chicken shed was an instrumental part in your story, susan, and in terms of getting that confidence and seeing what your daughter was capable of. You know what I mean. Well, not, not, I mean just, you know she, she flew basically in chicken shed and, um, you know, I would like to understand how. You know, it's 50 years that chicken sheds being around and I I only heard about it when you guys were on Britain's Got Talent. Actually, that's where where I first, uh, saw chicken shed. But uh, charlotte, you've been there really literally since the very beginning.
Speaker 3:Well, not, quite nearly, nearly, nearly, not quite. Yeah, I joined Chicken Shed in the 80s and actually Chicken Shed started in 1974 by Mary Ward and Joe Collins and Mary was a primary school teacher and Joe Collins was a musician and musician singer and they actually met through a church that they both went to and Joe was already kind of working with groups of young people, you know, to create music and Mary went along, met Joe and just had an instant connection and passion really for creating a space for people to come. Anybody could come and create. They put on shows and things like that and you know they didn't audition and you know the local kind of young people would come along and have an amazing time. And then the kind of chicken shed title came about when they needed a space to rehearse in because they couldn't keep using this church hall and somebody offered a chicken shed on their land, a literal chicken shed.
Speaker 3:A literal chicken shed which was cleaned up and a floor was put in and heating and Mary and Joe and the young people would meet there weekly and it became are you going to the chicken shed tonight? So the chicken shed kind of label was formed back then in the 70s and what actually happened was around I think it was around about 1983, a young boy attended who had cerebral palsy, which doesn't really sound like a big deal. But you know, in the 70s we've got to kind of think about what society looked like in the 70s and you know disabled children and adults lived in institutions mostly. So you didn't really see people in public spaces, disabled people in public spaces, you know. And so a child coming into this space who had cerebral palsy was quite a big deal to the other young people who weren't really exposed to people with cerebral palsy because they didn't go to the same schools. In fact disabled people didn't have a right to education and they were educated in institutions or half educated, looked after, I would say. So you know, you wouldn't see someone in your school with cerebral palsy and the young people were kind of like, well, where's everyone else? You know who else are we meeting, you know who else isn't coming to Chicken Shed.
Speaker 3:And then Mary and Joe were introduced to someone called John Bull, who happens to be my dad, and John was. My dad was running a children's home at the time for 20 disabled children and that was quite pioneering. A children's home of 20 children now sounds really archaic. You just wouldn't get it. But at that time it was quite pioneering because before that the children were living in hospitals. In fact my dad, when the home started, was asked to go along to a ward in a local hospital where the children lived and to choose the children that he wanted, which of course he refused and just said you tell me, you know I'm not going to choose children.
Speaker 1:And your dad had a background in those kind of institutions, didn't he?
Speaker 3:He did yeah, so he worked in, and so did my mum. They worked in.
Speaker 3:they would have been called mental institutions at that point which is just such a horrific title, but my mum actually worked on a ward with children and my dad, I think, worked with slightly older people and they were really. They didn't like them, they didn't think they were the best places for people to be and they saw the opportunity for this sort of children's home. You know, to open and opened this home in Enfield that was led by Enfield Council but and it was a home, it felt more homely and you know it still isn't a home. It's nothing like being at home with your family. I mean, back then you weren't encouraged Like Sue's story kind of says that really Often parents were told there's no way you could possibly look after your children.
Speaker 3:You know it's too much work, you aren't a specialist, they need specialist care and there wasn't any other care that or support that families were getting at that time. It was either, you know, do it on your own or your child goes into an institution. So this was, I suppose, a little stepping stone into children being in a more homely space. Um, but even then there was some sort of lots of radical thinking going on at cheviots, which was the children's home about you know why these children weren't with their families and what kind of support the families needed, um, in their homes, you know, to to ensure the children could stay in their homes and live with their families. So that kind of conversation was going. And also things like, you know, taking the children to public spaces, restaurants, swimming pools, shopping centres, going on holiday to Spain, you know those sorts of things weren't happening. So they were doing quite what was seen as radical at that time, um, and so Mary and Jo were introduced to, uh, my dad, John, and uh, an instant sort of connection happened.
Speaker 3:You know that kind of um, you know why, why, why is it like this? You know, wouldn't it be amazing if everybody could access the arts and enjoy the arts? And actually at Cheviots already, the children were experiencing quite a lot of within Cheviots were experiencing a lot of music and actually did a show every year with the staff and staff children and things like that. So there was, you know, a very aligned kind of thinking. So there was, you know, a very aligned kind of thinking. So that's sort of how I got involved through my dad. So I was around about 11, I think, and I went along to a lot of things because I lived with my brothers. We had to live in the children's home, which again wouldn't happen now, but I actually grew up with 20 children, oh, wow.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:From birth. So for you it was totally, totally normal, Totally normal.
Speaker 3:Still is, you know. That's why Chicken Shed it feels like my home. I mean not my second home. People say it actually feels like my home because that's my normal Like when I go to places and it isn't diverse, it feels really, really odd and I'm quite uncomfortable. I like to be in a space that is diverse, it's beautiful, and when you don't have that, it's not beautiful, immutable, um. So yeah it it was. It was um. Yeah, it was a very natural path personally for me to go into um, but the kind of same things I think that I was experiencing, like I went to mainstream school. I hated school, but I went to mainstream school and you know I would.
Speaker 3:Children would come back to Cheviots, where I lived, and of course, you know there were children who communicated in a different way maybe would have seizures all really normal to me, I understood it, but obviously they wouldn't have ever seen any. Anybody in a wheelchair or who was partially sighted or you know, had seizures and would be really scared, genuinely scared, just because that's they don't know, they don't understand. And what's so beautiful about chicken shed is you get children coming in from babies who grow up together and have that similar experience. I think from what I sort of had is they're growing up with diversity and then they kind of leave, you know, chicken Shed and go into their lives and take that, take that kind of um, you know, like Susan talked about her girls, take that, uh, understanding of the beauty of diversity into their own worlds and carry that on. And that's a really important part of you know, chicken shed, I think, to people if you, if you are someone now who's like in their 30s, they would always often refer back to their experience of chicken shed and what it, what it kind of gave them, um, in terms of life, you know, understanding life, um.
Speaker 3:So, yes, so Mary Jo and John formed this kind of partnership. My dad was actually then seconded by Enfield Council to work for chicken shed part-time, as well as Cheviots, which was was amazing event for council, and they really kind of developed Chicken Shed as a company and needed a building. That was, you know, needed a theatre we're passionate about, you know. We want our own space. We need our own space to do all of the things that we want to do, and that's to start education courses to run seven days a week, you know, to do outreach programs. You know that kind of all of these things that you know everyone was so passionately about creating but needed kind of a base and so set about getting a theatre.
Speaker 1:How did you get a theatre? I mean, that's no easy task.
Speaker 3:It's not, I think, with a lot of support, a lot of passion and a lot of support. So, you know, there was a big kind of group of supportive volunteers and young people who gave up a lot of their time to drive the work forward, and a lot of kind of support from Enfield Council who found us land and then we had to find the money to build the building. And we were really lucky to have Lord and Lady Rain who were big supporters of Chicken Shed and who set about finding the money and then got it. You know they, they stuck to their word and we got our amazing purpose built building built 30 years ago and it's stunningly beautiful. We always feel really lucky to have it, don't we so like every day? You know, you really do.
Speaker 3:You walk in and the vision that was set out then is in place, the vision of, you know, being open every day. Uh, thousand, you know, over a thousand people coming through the door weekly, of all ages, running education courses, doing outreach work, working, um, you know, putting performances on. Um, yeah, it's, it's happening daily and it's amazing. And isn't it amazing? Because it's hard? Theatres, keeping a theatre going is really hard, really hard, um, and it's incredible that it's been going for 50 years. I mean, it really is absolutely incredible. But it's precious and we all feel that. You know, we always feel like what, what we all have. Everybody that goes to Chicken Sh, chicken shed experiences it. Knows how important it is for everybody who who experiences it, and it's precious and we need to keep it going.
Speaker 1:Um you took. You told me some great case studies actually of some people who've been uh through chicken shed and gone on uh to to get jobs in theaters just on their own merit. I don't know if you remember some of those stories.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think the great thing about Chicken Shed is you can experience Chicken Shed in whatever way you want, it doesn't? Some people come in and they really desire a career in the performing arts and they have gone on to do that. Then you have somebody else who comes out and who wants to be a teacher, um, and they will go into that or work with children in another way, or I don't know you know it's kind of um, you can take what you want from it.
Speaker 3:It's not a stage school. I wouldn't. Yeah, yeah, but if you want to go into the performing arts, you can, and people do. Um, we've got quite a few individuals that have gone on and had a successful career in the performing arts. Um, still, I don't know whether we're allowed to say them are we, so you can say them yeah, we can.
Speaker 2:What was really lovely is we. We've been doing a gig at the hard rock cafe for since 1990 and the hard rock open up their doors to us uh, they're struggling at the moment so they can't do as much as they used to but we, they, they give us their food and we uh and drink and we can invite people. And it's in London, whereas we're in in Southgate, north London. So it's really nice to have a London venue and we did one just two weeks a week ago. And Jamie Dimitri, who has won now five BAFTAs and writes for Staff let's Flats and was in Barbie, the Barbie film, he came from. He came for 16 years, he came from the age of five and he did the educational courses and he now is a big actor in America and here and he came to watch it. The hard rock and he actually had performed in the hard rock when he was a boy and I sort of sat just near him and you should have seen him. He was whooping and he says, you know, without chicken shit, because he was quite shy. You wouldn't think so, but he was quite shy. And I think what we do is we give. We I don't know how, I'm only the press and PR, but Charlotte and the team, they can. They, they look at people and can see where their strengths are. And when you feel confident in your strength, then other things follow. You know, he wasn't confident particularly on stage, but he was really, he was funny and he was really good at writing. I think you, you find your strength.
Speaker 2:I was saying, I think, when we spoke to you earlier about andrew who, uh, he came here as a 14 year old little boy, um, mainly because I think his mom wanted to keep off the streets, give him something to do, you know, rather than you know, wandering about, and he didn't want to perform, he wanted to do the spot, the spotlight. He was only 14 and he stayed with chicken shed. He went to college, we sent him to college and he worked alongside our lighting guy and, uh, and then when our lighting guy left, he became our lighting guy. Then he said you know what? I can actually design the lighting. I. I reckon I can do that. So he became the lighting designer and and doing the lighting.
Speaker 2:And then when covid hit, we'd we'd been always using um, a person that would build our sets, you know, and it would cost us a lot of money to actually bring in a set designer and then have the sets build, uh, built, and we had covid and we lost money because we couldn't do that show. And when we got back, andrew said you know what? I reckon I could do the sets as well. He builds the best sets you have ever seen, really. So this little boy who came going I want to do the spot now is our production manager. He builds the sets, he does the lighting. He so creative and so brilliant and he's I think he's now in his early 40s. So it's really what you the thing. I mean, I wasn't a press officer, I worked in a travel agency. It's what you they find, what you can do.
Speaker 3:I think that's what. Yeah, mary and Joe really really pioneered that at Chicken Shed. You know, they taught us about how to do that and um, with the belief that really everybody has something to contribute, and believing that, not, it's not just tokenistic, it's a belief, a deep belief that every single person in that room has something important to contribute, and they were incredible at finding what that is. And it might not just be one thing, it might be multiple things, but everybody has something. And what's really a really important part of the process at Chicken Shed is that you can go into a room and you can have a, have a plan, and that plan just goes out the window because it's based on who's in that room.
Speaker 3:So, you know, you could go in with a plan with children and it'd be based on dinosaurs and have loads of activities, and then a child brings in a monkey and then your, your, you know, whole session is then based on monkeys and you come up with new ideas. And it's that ability to be able to change and adapt and be led by the people in the room. That is inclusion, that you're not coming in with this sort of script that is, you know, just formed by someone else. It's formed by the people in the room. It's that's. That's why it works. That's why inclusion works.
Speaker 2:And we say that everybody who comes through our doors changes us in some way, and that's absolutely true. They do, because we don't know what they're going to bring, but they bring something that changes us and we're always learning. So we never say we've got it right. We say we're learning, we're still learning we're learning together and inclusion never stops it never.
Speaker 3:You know it never, never, ever ends. Learning never ends. You know I'm I'm in my 50s now and I joined in my teens and I would say I'm still learning. You know, people teach me all the time, um, and surprise me and stop me in my tracks. You know and go, oh, I thought it was that, and then, oh no, actually it's this, and I think that's inclusion is it should be shifting and changing all the time, and it's people that do that.
Speaker 1:And it's also that fundamental principle that everyone has self-worth and that they have value, which so often you can feel less than, and I know I have a lot of parents who are listeners whose children have been described as less than, and they start to feel less than in education because of many different factors. You know, and to find a place where you're not less than, where you're valued, where you're, you know, just normal. You know, that's what you know, where it's normal. I think that that that is what all of us, as parents, want for our children. I know it's what you wanted for and how your story actually explained how you treated all of your three children the same, you know, susan, and that's what we want. We just want our children to have a normal life.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we have a lot of conversation about language and actually language has always been so interesting. You know, through our history, you know, when we're going back to the times that Susan's talking about and when I was a is becoming, you know, people are being empowered by language and embracing language and owning language in a completely different way to when I was a child or a young person, and so it's everything's constantly changing. But going back to that kind of word normal, you know, you know what is normal. You know there is no normal really is there, there isn't normal, it's just, and there's no abnormal, there's no abnormal, there's no normal. So, you know, there's just us, that's all there is, isn't there?
Speaker 1:It's just a messy wonderful, you know smorgasbord of people, yeah, and it's beautiful.
Speaker 3:It's absolutely beautiful. And I always think, oh, you're really missing out. When I go somewhere and it's not diverse, I think, god, poor you, you're really missing out on amazing skills and talents and feelings that aren't here. You know, poor you, and so I would always absolutely advocate and I know Chicken Shed would always advocate for diversity. You know, it's not because it's a tick box, because you're so much better with diversity.
Speaker 1:I think that's beautiful, because it's often looked at as the other way around oh, we need to be more diverse, oh, we need to, our hiring policies need to be more diverse, or this, that and the other. But you know, it should just be the way. It should just, you know, be accepted really, and hopefully we are. We've moved a long way from 40, 50 years ago, but I think you know there's still a ways to go, but, um, to have a place where people can feel included and empowered, and it's just, you know, it's given me hope. Uh, you know, you've inspired me, my daughter. I've signed her up now for a workshop next January and, like you, Susan, I was like, oh my God, it's over, and I had to look up where Southgate was.
Speaker 2:It's worth it, honestly, I promise you it's her.
Speaker 1:Christmas present. She doesn't know yet, but it's her Christmas present, it will change your life, I promise you.
Speaker 2:And after 33 years of being here, I still get as excited as I did when the lights went and the Requiem. Really, it's quite remarkable, honestly.
Speaker 3:And Emma is. I've grown up with Emma um, she's a friend of mine and Emma is an unbelievable teacher. You know, I see her in front of children and she's just. They're mesmerized by it. She can hold a stage or a classroom or a school or whatever space she's in and she's got this calm approach to performance. I've performed on stage with her many times. She's an amazing performer, actress, singer, dancer and she can teach and she teaches children songs and movement and sign language and she's an incredible role model. You know, thinking about what Susan was saying earlier, you know those parents and those children going into a space and teachers you know going. Oh, actually, you know this is a brilliant role model for the children in this room. She's incredible.
Speaker 2:In the 33 years I've been here, I used to be down in the box office and I could see people coming in. Emma is just one of thousands of people who possibly have got the label of an additional need, who possibly have got the label of an additional need, who come in here and thrive and it's just wonderful to watch it. Really. I watched the students come in in September and in two weeks after they come, this mix of group completely diverse group they put on a show, a sharing after two weeks, and you watch it and you go. Oh my god, this is after two weeks and really I mean Charlotte was very instrumental in my Emma because Emma went to.
Speaker 2:When Emma went to school, she had a welfare assistant attached to her hip the whole time she was at school. So when she came to Chicken Shed to do the BTEC course, she expected that that's what she expected. She expected for somebody to say OK, emma, today you're going to do this. And Charlotte and her team taught her you've got to keep a diary and if you're going to be late, you're not going to be in this because you need to do so. They taught her how to be like we all are, which is all the skills that you need to know to be somewhere, to do something, to feel good about knowing where you are.
Speaker 2:Emma now organises me because she's so good at organising, she's got her schedule, she's got her timetable, she knows where she's going. All of these skills that you're not taught or it comes to us naturally, but when, when you are separated and you, you know and you're, you're looked after, it's not preparing you for you know life after 19 and and it was a huge learning curve for em and now, because she's experienced that, she's able to help other people because she knows how they feel. How difficult it was. You know, emma used to disappear in the toilet because she thought I don't know what I'm doing now and she had to learn that skill really and all of those things it's. It's a learning as well as it's it's joyous, but it's also making people, helping people to be prepared for the world outside, and that's what we do.
Speaker 3:You could do a whole podcast on Emma. Yeah, she's so articulate.
Speaker 2:I'd love to have her on this show. Shall I tell you something she did years ago. We were supported by a company called Herbal Life and they really liked Emma and they asked her if she would go, uh, to alexandra palace and it was full of people and I was hysterical thinking, oh my god. And then I went don't worry, mom, I can do this. And she got up on the stage and she did this hot, they, they gave her a present and she did this whole speech and when she came off, I mean, how did you do that? She went. I watched the baftas, I just did a bafta. So she she'd caught. You know it it's, but she would never.
Speaker 2:She, when she first came to Chickie Chef, honestly, for three months she sat in the corner with her head down and other kids Robin, you know, other kids roughly the same age would sit with her. They didn't make her get up because in her brain she was special. She'd always been told she was special. So she felt special. But that special doesn't mean special Woo, look at me. That special sometimes means oh my God, I'm different, I'm not going to do this. So she literally. And then she started to lift up her head and look around and and then she became brave enough to join in and with the hard rock I think she was seven she did the thing with the hard rock. I think she was seven.
Speaker 2:She did the thing at the hard rock and Mary said she's going to present it and I went okay and I stepped out, I didn't do anything. But they worked with Emma so that she would speak slowly so that she could present the the thing. They, they trusted her and she worked hard on it herself and I was told she would never speak, never say verbs. You know the difference between Emma's not going to do anything and coming here and there is no limit, there's nothing. You know that they and they do it so that they're not saying you've got to do this, it's a natural, it's. It's like we grow up. You know we, we don't know as babies that we're going to eventually walk, but we do because we watch other people. It's that nurturing that is phenomenal. I have no idea how. And it's kids are teaching kids. You know it's a natural, it it's. You have to come and see it.
Speaker 3:That's a really important thing that you've touched on, sue, because I think it is quite a unique thing to see peers, that kind of peer learning, and it's a really important part of Chicken Shed. The same as when I was a teenager. I would go and work and support and lead groups of children that happens now and actually sort of other children. Um, if all the children have an awareness of they are responsible for how that room feels and that means that they they work in groups, um, small groups, and they are encouraged to listen to each other and give space for each other and everybody has something important to offer and they learn that from a really, really young age and that kind of if somebody is not included, it's their responsibility to bring them in. It's not an adult's job, it's their job and they they do it much better than we do.
Speaker 3:I mean, I, you know I ran the children's theatre for over 20 years and you know there would be children who would be described as challenging. Um, and you know I would get, try and get to know them a little bit or or one of the kind of other members of staff or students, and then you would see a child play or approach that other child and the magic would happen and we're like we're not needed. What are we doing here, thinking we're the most important people in the room with all the skills you know? Children can do it much better. They haven't got the um, the kind of baggage, have they, that we have the stuff that we uh have learned along the way, you know, through our education systems or or society, you know, or media or whatever.
Speaker 1:They they're coming with a blank canvas and uh, so yeah, that kind of peer support is a huge part of what we do at chicken shed and that's probably hugely important to the children as well, to have that connection with other children, because they don't always have that outside, probably absolutely yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3:I mean, I think it is that sense of community from such a young age because and I think community is changing, isn't it? You know so much stuff is online and you know kind of gaming and all that kind of stuff. Actually there's a lot around like, well, where, other than school, where you know youth clubs don't really exist anymore, where can you go as a child to feel a sense of community? And I would say Chicken Shed is one of those huge places. You know where you can go and you can feel like you really have a place in society. You know who you are and you can kind of feel like you have a purpose. You know when you fit in. You fit in totally.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then you can go out and you can help other people to know there is a place, not you know, you don't have to come here. Our kids go out and they talk about what they've learned and they know how to make others feel included and that's beautiful.
Speaker 1:It's like and then take it on, like your other daughters, to being teachers. And, as you said, susan, it becomes and I know I'm using the word normal again, but it becomes normal.
Speaker 3:It's just a natural way of being and it's a very beautiful way and the children and the young people know the difference in the spaces that they go to. They know what the differences are at chicken shed to school. They can compare it and go. I don't understand why we don't do this at school. You know why isn't it like this. You know from quite a young age. They challenge. You know why aren't I. You know why don't we have this inclusive processes within our schools? You know they're able to. We have this inclusive processes within our schools. You know they're able to kind of compare it and I think that's incredible, isn't it?
Speaker 1:That kind of young age to be able to challenge and know the difference and challenge the difference, yeah, and they'll be one day running the country. You know what I mean. That's where we want to go. You know I have no words to say how beautiful it is and how I wish all of the world was like chicken shed, and hopefully one day we will get there. Are there any? I always ask my podcast guests at the end for three top tips that you would give to parents to take away from them after listening to this podcast, and you guys can share three, or you can each have three, whichever you prefer. But what advice would you give parents to take away with them?
Speaker 2:My advice would be this sounds terrible to listen to yourself, to believe in yourself and what's right for your child, and because most parents absolutely love their children and yeah, so I think that would be my only one just listen to your child and love them, and it will happen.
Speaker 1:I think that's a great tip, and you know what it's actually. I hear it a lot on the podcast because it's kind of like it's trust your gut and trust your child, exactly, and everything else will fall into place. And question.
Speaker 2:I now. You know I took Emma out, but I should have at the time questioned it, but I didn't feel strong enough or knowledgeable enough to question what they were saying, so I took her out, I took myself and Emma out, and I'm very aware that I didn't change their opinions or worked with them. And I feel sorry now because maybe I could have made a lot of difference to other children.
Speaker 1:Really, I think you are, though, in the role that you're in, so don't worry.
Speaker 2:I think Emma is more than me I was just following her lead.
Speaker 1:Apple doesn't fall far from the tree. I think you both are. It's not an either or.
Speaker 3:Well, I would mine. I'm just going to talk from a practitioner's point of view, really in this talk from a practitioner's point of view, really in this sort of inclusive practitioner's point of view, in in, so if there's any practitioners listening out there, um, but also, I suppose what parents can expect from the places that they might want their children to go is that, you know, be open, just be open, just be open. Everybody is like a blank canvas. Don't judge. You know, don't think. I suppose someone's coming to you, let's say, with Down syndrome because that's what Susan talked about and they're going to be the same as someone else, and you know, you're the expert then in people with Down syndrome. Everybody's completely different. But generally, just be open, listen I mean, I think listening is underrated Listening and leave the spaces for children, people, adult, to tell you what they want. Don't presume. I think. Be kind.
Speaker 3:I think kindness is at the heart of what we do at chicken shed. It's central, you know, and that's what we always talk about. I think mary and joe really taught us about that is that whatever you do, you do it with kindness. And I think it's um, you can't take kindness for granted. You know it's, it's, it's at the heart of everything and I think, be radical. You know, and I think Sue was radical, I think Chicken Shed was radical and still is, you know, and should keep being. Um, and I our managing director, louise Perry, who was also a teenager in Chicken Shed, she said something really interesting and I thought, oh, that's so beautiful. Like when we were young and we were teenagers, we were radical, but with kindness. So we were doing something different and we were challenging, but it always was with kindness. We weren't like saying oh, you're doing it wrong and you're doing this.
Speaker 3:You know we were just doing it and showing a way of being, and at the heart of it was kindness. So, yeah, I think that's what.
Speaker 1:I would say I think you know, if we just live by those tips, we'd be all in a very good place. So thank you both for your time today, and I will have links to Chicken Shed in the show notes so that other parents can can check it out, and I look forward to experiencing it myself with my daughter in january, so, um, we might actually even be able to. I think you have a christmas uh um performance, so we might actually come and see one of those as well, yeah, we are doing pan um, our version of peter pan, which runs for, I think, seven weeks.
Speaker 2:So till the 11th of January, opened yesterday and it's beautiful yeah how old are your children uh, just one daughter.
Speaker 3:She is uh 13, so that would be ideal come and see it come and see it and then, if there's, anyone under kind of seven or I would say, come and see Christmas Tales, which is our younger kind of Christmas show. So we've got two productions going on, so if anybody wants to come, Wow, you guys are.
Speaker 1:That's amazing Two productions, Busy, busy. Well, thank you very much and it's been a pleasure and an inspiration talking to both of you. Thank you so much. Thank you for having us on. Thank you.
Speaker 3:Thanks for having us.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening. Send Parenting Tribe. If you haven't already, please click on the link in the show notes to join us in the private Send Parenting WhatsApp community. It's been wonderful to be able to communicate with everyone in the community and for us to join together to help each other to navigate challenges and to also celebrate successes. Wishing you and your family a really good week ahead, thank you.