SEND Parenting Podcast
Welcome to the Send Parenting Podcast. I'm your neurodiverse host, Dr Olivia Kessel, and, more importantly, I am a mother to my wonderfully neurodivergent daughter, Alexandra, who really inspired this podcast.
As a veteran in navigating the world of neurodiversity, I have uncovered a wealth of misinformation, alongside many answers and solutions that were never taught to me in medical school or in any of the parenting handbooks.
Each week on this podcast, I will be bringing the experts to your ears to empower you on your parenting crusade.
SEND Parenting Podcast
Navigating family stress and neurodiversity with Lisa Chan
Imagine preparing for a family gathering while navigating the intricate world of parenting a neurodiverse child. The noise, the chaos, and the unsolicited advice often threaten to overwhelm. Through this heartfelt episode, we promise to equip you with strategies to create a compassionate and supportive environment for your family. We are thrilled to welcome Lisa Chan, a dedicated pediatric occupational therapist from Canada, who shares her expertise in helping children with autism, ADHD, and sensory processing challenges. Lisa illuminates the importance of early intervention and emphasizes the need for an integrated approach, where parents are active participants in their child's journey.
Parenting neurodiverse children isn't just about managing behaviors; it's about understanding the underlying causes and decoding them effectively. Our discussion touches on the delicate balance of responsibilities, the stress of perceived unfairness among siblings, and the dynamics of communication within partnerships. Discover how to set boundaries with well-meaning but misinformed relatives, maintain confidence in your parenting choices, and foster resilience and independence in your children. We delve into transforming family dynamics by building consistency, setting realistic expectations, and embracing community support.
Join us as we unravel the challenges neurodiverse families face and explore practical tips and personal anecdotes to improve family harmony. Learn how to navigate the emotional journey from isolation and guilt to building confidence and understanding. Our conversation with Lisa provides invaluable insights into the "five whys" technique, empowering you to uncover the root causes of behaviors and transform daily routines into cooperative environments. Don't miss the opportunity to become part of our Send Parenting Tribe, a community where we celebrate both challenges and successes in a judgment-free space.
Click here for Lisa Chan's website
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www.sendparenting.com
Welcome to the Send Parenting Podcast.
Dr Olivia Kessel:I'm your neurodiverse host, dr Olivia Kessel, and, more importantly, I'm mother to my wonderfully neurodivergent daughter, alexandra, who really inspired this podcast. As a veteran in navigating the world of neurodiversity in a UK education system, I've uncovered a wealth of misinformation, alongside many answers and solutions that were never taught to me in medical school or in any of the parenting handbooks. Each week on this podcast, I will be bringing the experts to your ears to empower you on your parenting crusade. Before we start with the episode, I'd like to invite you to become a member of our Send Parenting what's Up? Community. It's a private space designed just for us. Parenting neurodiverse children can come with its own set of challenges, but it's also full of incredible moments of joy and growth. So I wanted to create a space where we can come together as neurodiverse parents to connect, share experiences and offer support to one another with no judgment and a lived in understanding. If you're a neuro navigator like me and have felt alone on this journey, then this is the community for you. Join us as we navigate this unique journey together. Join us as we navigate this unique journey together. The link can be found in the show notes or you can direct message me on 078-569-15105, and I can personally add you in Looking forward to hearing from you in the community.
Dr Olivia Kessel:In today's episode we're going to talk about stress in the home, especially related to raising a neurodiverse child. We're going to be joined by Lisa Chan, a pediatric occupational therapist, who specializes in transforming high conflict family dynamics and complex behavioral patterns that have become deeply ingrained into the fabric of your family life. Her approach targets the root of the family dysfunction, offering strategic interventions when traditional parenting and behavioral approaches may not have worked or, in fact, failed. Super interesting and, I think, super applicable to a lot of listeners and hopefully will give some good tools and strategies of how to manage stress, how to manage some of the conflict at home. Please grab a cup of tea or put on your earbuds and go for a walk and have a listen. So welcome Lisa.
Dr Olivia Kessel:It is an absolute pleasure to have you on the SEND Parenting Podcast today and I'm so excited. You know all the way from Canada you're joining us to talk about stresses in the home and I know that I feel it and I'm so excited. You know all the way from Canada you're joining us to talk about stresses in the home and I know that I feel it, and I know that a lot of my listeners feel it that actually raising a neurodiverse child just amplifies the stress that everybody feels in the home. I mean, it's stressful anyway, I think. But I think when you add neurodiversity into the mix whether it's the child or the child and the parent it just kind of amplifies the situation. So I'm really excited to unpick this topic today and hopefully come up with some good strategies that people can use at home to kind of decrease and reduce that stress. So I guess the first thing I'd like to say, lisa, is tell us a little bit about yourself. You're a pediatric occupational therapist. How did you get into this line of work and what inspired you?
Lisa Chan:Well, first of all, thank you for having me on your podcast. So my whole story started as a young girl trying to figure out what I wanted to do, and I landed myself in occupational therapy school. This was over 10 years ago and when I graduated I knew I wanted to do something in pediatrics. So I was fortunate enough to get a job in that and that just really jumpstarted my whole career, figuring out and learning so much about kids who are on the spectrum, kids who have ADHD, sensory processing challenges, other types of developmental delays, and through this experience I got to work in schools, in family homes, in clinical settings, and what I saw was just so much, so many challenges that families were facing and I really wanted to make an impact on these kids because I could see that if we could just intervene early and give them the right supports, they can thrive.
Lisa Chan:Kids who face these challenges and have these different diagnoses. It doesn't mean it's an end road for them. It just means that they need a different approach. And so when I started really understanding that and I was putting all of my energy into that I could see the progress. But then there was just something that was missing in the healthcare system. I would say that this is something I've seen like for sure in Canada, because this is where I worked, but also talking to other therapists around North America and also different parts of Europe too.
Dr Olivia Kessel:And I would say Canada's system is quite similar to the UK system. For people who are listening, it's a public health system.
Lisa Chan:Yes, exactly. And so because of it because it's a lot of it is government funded, there are limitations, and so, as an OT, I felt that there was a lack of connection that I could have with the parents. And so when I did have moments where I could talk to parents what was going on in your life with your child parents just felt that there wasn't enough support for them. So their child would be getting therapy in schools, or they would be sending their kids to therapy and clinics, or they would be sending their kids to therapy and clinics and they would be doing all these things behind the scenes because we were told like we couldn't really bring in parents. It was a distraction and kids like they might not show you know, they might get distracted and want to stay with their parent and ask them for help. So it was just kind of the way it was that we didn't have parents involved.
Dr Olivia Kessel:Very siloed, it sounds like.
Lisa Chan:Exactly. We were given like these small moments where we could actually talk to the parent and give them the strategies, and it was kind of like here you go, here's the paper, go go, figure it out at home. But when I actually got to speak to them, they're like I don't know what I'm doing, I don't. I feel like there's no guidance, there's no support I'm getting, and even though I know my child's learning different skills or working on emotional regulation, they're doing all these sensory things in your practice. But I don't know how to translate that at home.
Lisa Chan:And it just clicked for me when I started to see this disconnect, that there was this huge gap. I knew I needed to step into a different realm where I could offer the support to families, because that's where the struggles really are. It's in real life. It's not in this siloed, like you said, kind of like clinical setting where you work on skills. It's like, well, what happens after that when, when your child walks out of those doors, they come home, home, well, who's supporting the parents and telling them? This is how you need to approach things differently. This is how you actually implement the strategies that they've been working on in real time.
Lisa Chan:And so since really COVID, I kind of expanded outwards and really focused on the parents and what can we do to support you better? What can we do to really give you the tools so you feel confident? Because that's what I was seeing a lot of parents were just really feeling not confident. They were feeling like the behaviors were persisting and they felt it was their fault and that they were failures. And it really came down to they just didn't have the tools, they weren't educated on what was really going on. So that's kind of my journey into how I became a parent coach and really dive deep into child behavior and that's really the place I love being here and helping the families.
Dr Olivia Kessel:Yeah, and you know, it's so true and it speaks to my heart as well, because you know, doing things at school or doing things in an office, it doesn't translate to home and it's you know a lot of parents out there, myself included you do feel very alone, you do feel very frustrated, you do feel like you're a bad parent and you don't know, and you really have to educate yourself. So, having someone to be with you to help you and that's part of the reason for this podcast actually is to bring this information to people so that they can use it in the home, because you talk about getting to kind of the root cause of the issue or the dysfunction in the home. How do you go about that and how do you like figure out what the big stressors are for a family that you're working with in the home?
Lisa Chan:So every family is so different. It really comes down to family dynamics. What is the structure like in the family? Is it a two-parent household? Are there siblings involved? Are there extended family involved? What is the environment also like too? Is there more structure? Is there less structure? And then really getting into the child, what is their specific kind of blueprint? What are, what's their personality type like? Are they very strong willed? Are they those deeply feeling kids? And do they have different diagnoses that would indicate, you know, the different challenges that they might be facing, like communication, social skills, emotional regulation challenges, and so it really is a big puzzle.
Lisa Chan:It's like a jigsaw that I really have to lay out all the different pieces with the family, and that's why it's it is very it's a hard thing to figure out on your own. So, as a parent, if you're going through this, it's not meant for you to put these pieces together by yourself, because how can you? There's so many aspects to it and you really need that professional lens to pinpoint what is going on. Sometimes, when you're in it as a parent like you, have blind spots too. You don't see things because that's what you're used to, and so for myself that I really take a very holistic approach to what is going on in your family and then also ask the parent what's the most important thing for you? Because I can make my assumptions and go this is the most important thing, but to that family like they could care less about it. So it really comes down to family centeredness. What is that important thing? And that's what we're going to work on.
Dr Olivia Kessel:And then how do you deal with? Because I know you talked that there's different family structures as well, but you know, you know there's single parents, there's parents that are together, there's parents who are dating and have partners, and there can often be a difference of opinion, let's say, among discipline, and that in itself, or behavior, and that in itself amplifies the stress in the home and creates and they might be coming at it from two different perspectives.
Lisa Chan:Absolutely. I see this very often in my practice where two families are coming from, either if it's parents of the child or mixed families coming together. We do see differences of opinion because we all come from different places. We as individuals were raised a certain way by our own parents, and so that's the image we have of what parenting looks like, and we will bring that inevitably into our parenting and we either make a conscious effort to to change it. If it, what if it's not the right fit for your child, or we continue to use that approach because that's all we know and your partner might have a different approach, and so I do often see that dynamic happening.
Lisa Chan:Where the parenting approaches are different. One might feel that there needs to be more discipline, more punishments to get your child listening and following and obeying the rules, and then the other parent is more on the let's say softer side, or they're trying to use more understanding, trying to come from a place of this is what my child needs, and there becomes a clash because the parents are not seeing eye to eye and they're arguing a lot and this is something that is very prevalent, actually, I lot, and this is something that is very prevalent. Actually I saw there's an article from Psychology Today where they did a survey and families who are raising kids on the autism spectrum actually have an 80% chance of divorce because, as you can imagine, like the amount of stress that is going on when you're raising a neurodiverse child, and so it's. It's really important.
Dr Olivia Kessel:That's disheartening, isn't it? That number, but I mean I and it would be interested to know about ADHD, or or combination of of of both. But I would say, a lot of the mothers that I talked to, a lot of them have had, you know, relationships that have broken I'd say the majority from from my experience as well. So you know that's. And then future relationships, too. You know that it's very hard then to find a new relationship after a relationship has crashed and burned. So I think, like this discussion today is so important, because how can you stop from getting to that point, you know, and what can you do in the home to get from that point? So I'm looking forward to talking about that too. There's also the dynamic, though, of siblings in the family as well, whether that be your actual siblings or step siblings, and having a child whose behavior is more challenging and maybe one that isn't as challenging, and how you cope with that.
Lisa Chan:Yes, so sibling dynamics are very unique and what we see a lot with families where there is one child that has more needs and the parents inevitably have to put more attention in that child, the other sibling who may have less of a need, is not given as much as attention, less of a need is not given as much as attention, and so that can create certain dynamics between both the two children, the two siblings, because one might feel that things are unfair for them.
Lisa Chan:Things are, you know, why does my brother always get the attention and I don't? Why are you so lenient with him but I'm not so lenient? Also, the reverse can be true, right, where the sibling who has less needs they're not getting into trouble as much, whereas the child who has challenges is always getting into trouble, and so that child feels like everyone is, you know, pitching against me, it's me, against my family, and that creates resentment, resentment and lots of tension in the family, and so there's many different dynamics within the family system that can be a stress point and it's really unpacking that and and, like you said, like being proactive so that that tension doesn't continue to build up, because once you see it, it tends to be a snowball effect, right. And it just gets bigger and bigger and as your kids get older, they get into the preteen teenage years. You've got now hormones thrown in the mix and it just gets crazy, and so it's really important.
Dr Olivia Kessel:Tell me about it, my daughter's 13.
Lisa Chan:We're all crazy, right, we're all crazy, my daughter's 13. We were all crazy, right, we were all crazy.
Dr Olivia Kessel:And then you also have extended family as well and they add their own dynamics. So you have this core and it goes outwards. And then you have extended family as well, giving you know, whether it be family meals, whether it be going out with family, whether it be family coming to your house and seeing behaviors that they would deem unacceptable. That adds another level to the stress.
Lisa Chan:Like, as we pick kind of some of these stress points, Absolutely Extended family, especially since we just came back from the holidays and many of us have seen our extended families. And you know, when we gather together there's a lot of sensory overload and so that can be big triggers for our kids. That triggered the behaviors to come out. And now it's happening in front of your extended family and you might be getting some unsolicited advice and it's really eating at you to your core because, of course, like we as parents, we're all trying our best. But when we hear these comments and you know all these things, that, oh, you should be doing this instead you should, you should be disciplining more, and you know, you feel like, of course, like I know that, but this is, you know, my child's different and you just feel like you're being shoved in a corner with everyone just throwing things at you.
Dr Olivia Kessel:And you feel quite defensive. You know, you know and on the back foot I speak from my own experience you know where it's like. Oh well, you know you're too permissive, you're letting her manipulate you, you're bargaining too much, but you know, you don't know what you're talking about as well, and it's hard not to get defensive. So exactly.
Dr Olivia Kessel:Yeah, I heard on the news the other day that January is the month of divorces as well, so I think all of these things tie in together to create a very stressful environment. So you've talked a bit about how you unpick it, but can you maybe unpick with us like how it would, how how we could look at each of those kind of layers and how we can think about ways that we can take that stress down or reconnect or just decrease the pressure cooker.
Lisa Chan:Right, and the most important thing really comes down to communication, being active listeners to one another. Because what we do in these moments is that we feel that the other person is attacking us and, like you said, we get defensive, and and rightly so, because we feel like we're not being understood and so we put up these defense walls. But when we're always in defense mode, we can't listen, we cannot hear each other out and it just feels like you're talking on different wavelengths. So if you and your partner are not on the same page, and one person saying one thing, the other person saying the other, you're totally missing each other. So it comes down to Okay, how do we start opening up our communication? How can we start creating a judgment free place? You know, setting up time to sit with one another, and in this moment we're not going to attack each other, we're not going to feel like we need to defend ourselves. We're just going to speak how we feel in this moment and listen to one another, and actually creating that time and space for each other can really help to connect and to find that that middle ground. The other thing is also education, like number number.
Lisa Chan:Two thing besides communication is education. You have to educate yourself on the why. Why is your child? Because the stress point is your child's behavior. They're doing things that are are inappropriate or just kind of like stirring the pot in the house. And so why? Why is your child doing that in the first place? And you know we can say, well, they're just being manipulative, they just want to be bad and get attention. But then I tell parents, ask yourself why? Why is your child being quote, unquote, manipulative? Right, there's a deeper feeling and emotion that they're having that's causing them to behave this way. And when they kind of peel back layers one by one, they get down to a root problem which is usually rooted in something sensory related especially if you have an autistic child or an ADHD child or it's related to executive functioning. Right, they're struggling with something, with processing information, with remembering things. That's why you always have to repeat yourself 50 times and they're still not getting it. Well, it's not that they just don't want to listen, it's like well, maybe it's actually related to executive functioning and working memory and also their impulse control and there's just so many layers to it. But when you can understand it from that perspective that there's actually a reason behind their behavior and it's not just the superficial thing that you're seeing, it's something deeper.
Lisa Chan:Then parents get this aha moment. They're like, wow, okay, I get it now. And it gives them compassion, right. When you figure out the why and you start to recognize like my child's not actually a bad human being, they're actually struggling, you immediately switch. You can't continue to be hard on them and feel like you know there's nothing that's going to change them. It's like no, there's actually good inside your child and we're going to figure out how to get that out of them. And and when parents really understand that, they get on the same page. Because now you get like we're rooted in science, this is not just fluff, it's. Your child has, you know, neurological differences. There's cognitive differences and if we can figure out ways to help them from that, we're building the foundation to help them behave in ways that they that we know they want to behave Like kids don't want to to always push your buttons just because.
Dr Olivia Kessel:Yeah, most kids they want to do, they want to please you, they want to do. Well, no matter, they really do. And you know, it's just. I love the way you put that because it speaks to my own heart too. It is a neurodevelopmental difference in their brain and it's something that they're not. They're not trying to do this. And once you understand that, it gives you.
Dr Olivia Kessel:It took my daughter's diagnosis of ADHD and then understanding ADHD for me to understand that all those points of frustration were points of frustration for her as well. It wasn't I won't do this. It's actually I can't do this and that's why I'm having such a difficult time with it. And once you kind of I don't know if you're putting on glasses or taking off glasses, but your whole attitude to your child changes because you realize, okay, they need a list of things, you know step one, two, three, four, and they need to be able to refer back to it. She can't have, you know, multiple instructions given to her. It's not going to work, you know.
Dr Olivia Kessel:And understanding that then it just resets it. And then getting your partner to also understand that. And I know I've had some of my moms who listen to the podcast. They'll tell their husband okay, as you drive to work, listen to this podcast. This will help you to understand, because that's so important I think, too, is for both of you to get educated and be on the same page in terms of exactly what you've just said.
Lisa Chan:Exactly. Yes, that really doesn't end, and I see that dynamic, you know, with whoever the parent that is, mostly with your child. I mean, typically it is mom, but not in every case, like I have seen where dad is the one that might be home more with the child. But that parent is starting to see things like they've educated themselves because they've had to, right, they're the ones that had to drive their child to therapy, they're the ones that had to to go to parent meetings at school, and so they're seeing things. And the other parent who may not always be there because they're busy at work, they're not as informed, they're not always the ones seeing the behaviors happen firsthand, so that disconnect can can really create so much stress and and problems in that relationship.
Lisa Chan:But, yes, sending that, that podcast or sending that resource to your partner just to help them catch up and understand what's going on, right, it's also understanding that they may not have had the time to to really figure this out themselves, and so they might, yes, be pulling in parenting approaches that they grew up with, like, okay, we're just going to discipline more, but then maybe they haven't tried that route, because you're the one that's always there and you've tried it and you know it doesn't work and so when you give them that information and you let them process it in their time, they will start to come around. But it's it's helping them get there. Because I know, I know like you're gonna have both um parents listening to this podcast and it's if you're going to have both parents listening to this podcast and it's if you're the parent that feels like you know you're really involved, share this information to your spouse or your partner. And if you're the partner where you recognize like yeah, I'm not around as much and maybe I do need to hear other things out, be open-minded about it.
Dr Olivia Kessel:Yeah, and it's that open communication that you talked about as well, and being able to talk to each other and listen and listen even if it's something you don't agree with. You know, and I think that works in both ways. You know, maybe the person who isn't as involved doesn't agree with what you're saying, but needs to listen, and maybe the person who is more involved needs to also listen to where the other person's coming from in terms of their parenting, what they believe might work and, and you know, have that open line of communication, because people often don't listen, even with your children. Actually, I would say that that's also really important with diverse children as well, as one of the key things I learned early along is silence, you know is silence.
Lisa Chan:You know, stop talking. That is so powerful. The number of parents where I've had to recommend that to them because it's hard. Yeah, it's definitely hard, Because when we see our kids either amping up with their emotions or they're just really upset, we feel this need to jump in and fix it, make them feel better or end the behavior. And so we try to compensate, we try to talk our way out of it, and it's like no, no, no, no, Like. Do you see? The behavior is escalating. This actually means we need to take a step back, be okay with the silence, because silence for some reason feels so scary to us. We think that there's like a monster hiding in the silence, but it's like no, it's actually the time where connection can be built. It's like giving each other the space to think and process and feel, and it's in that silence that we get through that hard feeling, that we can come out of it better. So be okay with silence, Don't be afraid of it, Don't run away from it.
Dr Olivia Kessel:Yeah, no, I totally agree. And then you know, active listening and listening to what people say, listening to what your partner says and taking it on board and paraphrasing it back to them as well, also is super helpful, because then they know that you've actually listened to them, which is another great one to use, and it's, I mean, these techniques are also really good for extended family, I think as well, because you know your extended family usually is the one that's given you your parenting. You know, handbook that may or may not be valid anymore I know mine wasn't valid, you know I had to rip it up, but I still have that parent, you know. So you, you also need to bring them on a journey with you as well, and again, it goes to communication and to knowledge. Any other tips that you would recommend?
Lisa Chan:Yeah, strategies to touch on with extended family, because that's a very tricky place Because with extended family, you don't always see them and so you know you kind of have to gauge the relationship you have with them and you know bringing resources and education can be can be a great thing, because if they're open minded and they're willing to learn, that's a really great place to get them to be on that same page and to you know, help you, help you out by not giving you some unsolicited advice, that that you don't really need in that moment, by not giving you some unsolicited advice, that that you don't really need in that moment.
Lisa Chan:Right.
Lisa Chan:But then there's also going to be extended family who might not understand and even with, like you, might have already tried giving podcasts and youtube videos and different resources for them to read on, but every time you see them during the holidays or birthdays, it's like the same thing.
Lisa Chan:It's a broken record and it can be very draining too, and so you kind of have to at some point like figure out your boundaries with it as well and like starting off with the education is a great place. But if you know at some point, if it's really not computing and it's really not getting you anywhere. You do have to set those boundaries and be confident in speaking up to that. If they're giving you this unsolicited advice, you know, just making a simple response hey, I appreciate it, but this is not the path that we're on right now and that's it and just kind of end the conversation. It doesn't have to be a battle with them trying to convince them. Sometimes you can't, you can't convince everyone, and it's being okay with that and just knowing what you will say in that moment when you get that unsolicited advice.
Dr Olivia Kessel:Just end it and move on. Yeah, I think that's because you know the only person you can really change in life is yourself, not others. So you can change how you respond and what your stress response is to that individual's comments and also you can frame it for yourself that you realize where they're coming from, what their generation was, whatever they're you know, and just like with your child. If you do that, it makes it easier for you to see them in a different way and to not let it affect you or stress you out, because you can see that it's their issue, it's not your issue. Once you feel confident in yourself and I think that's also a really key point, because and to your point of coming into helping parents is it's that period where you feel really unconfident. Your house is chaos, you don't know what you're doing and you're stressed out that these things have more of an impact on you.
Lisa Chan:Absolutely. It's when you're not sure of yourself yet, and that's totally normal, especially when you're just entering into parenthood and you're just finding out about your child's either diagnosis or differences like you're really thrown into it, right? None of us were given that manual when we had our child. They just were there and then you just kind of did what you thought you needed to do and you're figuring it out along the way and as you're noticing the different challenges, it's normal to question yourself and go like, well, what is going on? Like, am I doing the right thing? And again it just comes back down to start educating yourself, start listening to different things, to build up that confidence Because that confidence it comes with the competency of knowing the why and to not be afraid to reach out for that help too, because when you're in it and you're deep in it, it's easy to self-isolate.
Lisa Chan:So that's another big feeling that I know parents experience is that you feel so alone. You feel this level of shame and guilt because your child's behaving in a way that you feel like, well, I should be able to control them and I can't. And so then you isolate because you don't want other people to see you in this state, but that only spirals you further and further into this hole that gets harder to climb out of. And the truth is you need to reach out. Like you have to branch out because you can't do it alone.
Lisa Chan:Parenting, you know, it was never meant for us to do alone anyways, like we always needed that village of people who can support us. Give us that break right, make sure that we don't ever burn out. But nowadays our lifestyles are so separated, we're all living in our own homes and our families have moved over across to a different city, and like we barely see our parents who can help us with our kids and and so when you're already physically isolated, and then now you're mentally isolating yourself even more, it just feels like a trap. And so be okay to ask for help, to find help in your community, reach out to people in your child's school, finding that support system, looking into your local community, starting off with you know, in the medical profession, like are there people there that they can refer you out to, to give you that help? And so that's so important, so that you don't get into states of burnout.
Dr Olivia Kessel:Yeah, and I mean that's one of the reasons I started this podcast was from feeling so alone and so many moms I talk to feel so alone and there's lots of different groups out there and communities out there that you can also join and talk to other parents who are going through it.
Dr Olivia Kessel:But I think that's one level. But then the other level is getting kind of that professional support and that kind of ability to help navigate. And you talk about navigating your child's behavior and you know when you've, when you reach a point where all of the kind of and I would say, traditional behavioral interventions you know, like the naughty step or time out in your room, they don't work. In fact they backfire. At least you know in my experience and other parents as well it actually it turns into a it's. You wish you never did it. You know what I mean and so you learn different ways. But you talk about decoding kind of your child's behavior to find the kind of solutions that aren't those typical behavioral interventions like the not what was, what was she called? The, the naughty nanny or the nanny?
Lisa Chan:The super nanny, super nanny, thank you. The naughty corner?
Dr Olivia Kessel:Yes, yeah, and her kind of the way that she deals with issues. So I think your approach is very different, but I'd love to hear, like, how do you decode your child's behavior and how can you, you know, think about different ways to manage it?
Lisa Chan:Yeah, so it's really going into those whys. So it's visualizing that your child's behaviors, that you see, is like an iceberg. It's seeing that at the tip of that iceberg it's all the things that currently annoy you right, the backtalk, the lying, the, the big meltdowns. But when you peel back the layers and you go down into the water and you figure out, well, why is my child behaving the way they are? It's, that's the decoding, that's finding out. It's stemming from, let's say, sensory processing.
Lisa Chan:My child is getting overwhelmed in the morning. You know, I'm trying to wake them up and they are just melting down. When I asked them to get dressed Well, what about that? Like, yes, I know the melting down in the morning can be stressful because you've got to go to work and you don't have time for this, and so we lose our patience, we start yelling you better get ready. You use threats to try to get them moving. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, it backfires. Then you end up getting stuck in a cycle.
Lisa Chan:But when you decode what's going on? Well, why is your child refusing? Why are they trying to avoid getting dressed? Is it because the task is too hard? Physically, putting their arms through the sleeve is so challenging for them because there's too many steps to it and cognitively it's just overwhelming them. Or is there a sensory thing going on, like they just hate the feeling of this piece of clothing. It's too itchy, it's too tight, and you know, finding accommodations for that can significantly reduce the meltdown that they're experiencing.
Lisa Chan:And so when we see it from that lens, we're removing from the top down approach to do as I say. And now it's like, okay, we're going bottom up. What's what's going on internally for them in their nervous system? All right, okay, I see it now. Now, how can we shift that and how can we support them in their needs so that they actually can participate and and be cooperative with you? And I've seen so many, so many amazing stories from this, like when, when I worked with families who had that exact situation like the morning routine is a big, it's a big problem. Situation like the morning routine is is a big it's a big problem, right, because we're always rushing me, yeah, so this is a very, very common problem. And you know, when we make this, this shift for them, they're like, wow, like I haven't had a battle with with my child in in weeks and I'm like, yes, because we're getting to the root problem. We we're actually seeing them for what's going on inside of them and helping them.
Dr Olivia Kessel:And you know, again, this speaks right to me as well, because I had that aha moment with my daughter with ADHD. And she, you know, get ready, brush your teeth, brush your hair, get your clothes on, make your bed. You know it ended up in an explosion every morning. Then, you know, stick it notes, which you know I would write and stick on the wall, and then she could pull one off after each one was done, crumple it up, throw it in the bin, which she loved to do, and she just loved it. You know, okay, first, and it had one, two and she could do it like that. It ended the conflict.
Dr Olivia Kessel:You know, Such a simple solution. Because of her executive functioning skills and her, she couldn't, she got distracted, but she, her attention was then really focused on this and she wanted to pull off all the things off the wall and get everything done. And then, you know, reinforce that with a reward and a check and a sticker and whatever. Boom, our mornings changed dramatically, you know. And now she doesn't need the post-it notes because it's become, it's out of her prefrontal cortex, now she's, it's a couple of years down the road, she now has it. It's just a behavior. She doesn't she, you know it's, it's ingrained in her. She doesn't need to think it's. It's become a habit.
Lisa Chan:Yes, and and these things are exactly what parents need, like they need these types of tools and and what I've noticed in therapy like you might be sending your kid to therapy to work on executive functioning because that was what was assessed on paper by the developmental psychologist and it's like, okay, work on executive functioning in in therapy, and they're working on all these things on the at the table and then they come home and they're still melting down every morning with you. Well, that's because we're not integrating. Well, what are we integrating here?
Dr Olivia Kessel:Well, and also who knows what executive function is. As a normal parent, even as a doctor, like you know, I have a cerebral idea of what executive function is, but I didn't know that that's what's causing the meltdowns every morning. You know what I mean. Making that connection is wide, you know. And then when you start to understand it, it's like oh, that's why. And when you understand that your kids are younger than other kids because they've got that delay in the executive functioning, so your expectations need to be taken, you know, back a couple years, then it shifts the whole playing field for you. As you say, nobody sits you down and explains that to you as a parent.
Lisa Chan:And that's another really good point for your listeners is that if your child is struggling like you, have a child that's been diagnosed with ADHD or it's been assessed that they have executive challenges that, remember their biological age is not the same as their cognitive age, and so making that shift like yes, you might have an 11 year old, but treating your child like every 11 year old is not going to serve them, even though as much as you want to treat them at their biological age, I get why we you know parents try to do that, but at the same time, if they're not there yet, it's going to make matters worse. You have to find where they're at and figure out what are the supports then to get them, you know, moving forward rather than just holding firm and being like, no, they have to do this because they're 11. No, let's let go of those expectations and find where they are. And that I mean no, let's let go of those expectations and find where they are.
Dr Olivia Kessel:And that I mean for me. Anyway, that decreased the stress in my home considerably because you know I still have expectations, but they're expectations that she can meet. They might be a little bit of a push because I still believe in that as well, you know for her, because she needs to grow and develop, like she'll say to me like, oh, I can't, I can't do the dishwasher, mommy, you know I'm neurodiverse. I'm like, yes, you can do the dishwasher, you know she's not, she's not, you know not done. So it's finding that right balance between what they a push goal, not too much, but also readjusting what your expectations are, and that's hugely freeing and I think it and then communicating that to your, your partner and to your other children in the family and to everyone else. It helps put everyone on the same page together.
Lisa Chan:Yes, exactly yes, and and to your point it's it's finding this just right challenge for them. It's what we forget is that when our kids are are struggling with these executive functioning and we're having those age expectations, it's actually too hard for them and that's why they shut down and then that's why they push back and they start behaving inappropriately to you. But when you can bring that down and you don't want to go too far down, right, because then I see the opposite happen, where parents are like well then I guess I just have to do it for them, but then that doesn't teach the skill, right? If we always load the dishwasher and we never get her to try parts of it, well then she's never going to know how to load that dishwasher. We have to give her a task that is doable for her. Maybe it's just bringing the dish to the sink and that's it, and then, as a week goes by, you can add a little bit more to it and add a little bit more. So it's seeing these small progressions.
Dr Olivia Kessel:And the other thing I found really key is, if they try and they do it and they do it really badly, again back to that silence comment. They do it and they do it really badly again back to that silence comment. Do not criticize it, do not say how they could do it better. Just be like. My daughter takes a shower and she sometimes doesn't even like wet this part of her hair, but you know what she's take, or it just gets covered in shampoo and doesn't get rinsed out, you know. But the fact that she's getting in the shower and doing it by herself is great and she's learning and she will get better at it. I shouldn't say anything about that. You know what I mean. Same with the dishes If she puts them in the dishwasher and they're all over the place just at first. Just be really proud that they're doing it. And that can be hard for parents not to critique, or at least it's hard for me.
Lisa Chan:No, it's hard. It's definitely hard for all, for all of us, all of us parents Like we when we have these expectations that have been ingrained in our head and they don't go our way, we kind of have a little mini fit in our head and we're like, oh, and then we have to let out our frustration on our kids. But it's, it's learning how to regulate ourselves in that moment. Right, not getting triggered by that and and that. Not getting triggered is going back to understanding your kid and where they're at right. Because when we can do that, then we can avoid ourselves from falling into the trap of the trigger and and then we can show up for them in ways that are actually going to support them.
Lisa Chan:Because our kids who are struggling, they, they hear more negative comments, right, they're hearing more negative comments in their lifetime compared to other kids who don't struggle.
Lisa Chan:And so, if that is the message that you're receiving, that's going to be the internal voice that you're going to have and that's what's going to play in your head all the time that, oh, you can't do this, right, oh, why can't you be like your brother? And then, if you're hearing that and then now you go into the real world. Well, that's just like where there's no positivity and if we're expecting our kids to be positive and to be optimistic, it's like, well, we have to check in and go. Are we, have we been feeding that? Are we adding to to that thought process and how can we change it? Because you might be listening and going okay, maybe that was something I was doing, but it's never too late to change course, to repair with your child and to be on a better path of speaking more positively to them, giving them that praise when they have tried right. It's about recognizing that they're trying, they're putting in that effort rather than the outcome.
Dr Olivia Kessel:Absolutely. And you know and I think that becomes even more complicated when you do have siblings as well. As you said, you know not comparing them and not you know you are going to have different expectations. So how do you deal with that, with your children and those dynamics going to have different expectations? So how do you deal with that with your children and those dynamics in terms of you're going to? You know you parent all your children differently, but how do you navigate and communicate with your children?
Lisa Chan:Again, it goes back to that open communication and of course it depends on you know, the siblings age and how you're going to communicate these things. But you know, if there are differences, the siblings are going to notice it. They're going to notice that, you know. Why is it that my, my brother, doesn't have to load the dishwasher, he only has to put the plate on the sink. But I have to do it and of course you know, superficially it's not fair, right, it's not fair why, why you have to do that. But it's then learning how to explain certain things to your that sibling and helping them to understand the differences that that child has, so that they can come from a place of understanding. We're here to help him because this is where he's struggling with and we're going to get him there.
Lisa Chan:He's eventually going to be doing you know the amount of stuff that you're doing too but we're going to help him get there and and that, and just having that open dialogue can make a world of a difference, because a lot of the times the siblings have no idea, because when do we ever think to stop and go? I'm going to talk to you about what's going on. We're always too busy focusing on something else. They're kind of left in the dark and they're just trying to piece things together. They're making up stories in their head and that's where unfairness comes in, that resentment comes in, because they've never really been told what's going on. So, sitting down with your child and with your family and just like having this discussion and it's not in a way where it's judgmental, where it's pointing at your one child, telling everyone that we're going to treat that child a certain way, telling everyone that we're going to treat that child a certain way it's just making it open communication so that everyone can understand and everyone can give feedback.
Dr Olivia Kessel:Yeah, absolutely, because kids have this ingrained kind of fairness meter which is so important to them. Honesty and fairness is extremely important to children. So, yeah, having that open communication and all of those things that we've discussed are going to decrease the stress in the house considerably. How have you seen, like, if you could give an example of a family that's been the most you know stressed out family, you could imagine where have you taken them and where have they gotten to?
Lisa Chan:I've had a number of families who they would tell me my life is chaos, I am unbelievably stressed out and I cry Like that's. I hear that a lot from moms, especially where they've told me that, like the moment they have any alone time, like they go into a room and they're crying and that just shows me how and how much distress that they're experiencing. And after really helping them to see what is going on with your child, why is your child behaving the way they are, what can you do differently in your approach, in the strategies you're implementing? And they've done the work. They've cons, they've immensely reduced that stress. They're telling me I finally feel at peace, I don't feel like I'm walking on eggshells, like when I wake up I'm not dreading that day, I don't feel like I just want to stay in bed anymore because, like, I know that I can actually communicate with my child, I can actually, you know, help them in a way that I feel confident and I'm actually seeing the results of them cooperating with me and we're not battling.
Lisa Chan:That changes the whole game for them and and parents have been able to consistently keep that up too, and it comes down to that personal work. Are you willing to invest that time for yourself and into consistently putting in those strategies. Because that's what it comes down to and that that's the most difficult thing is staying consistent because it will logically click. The strategies logically click and you know, when I tell parents like you got to make time for yourself, that logically clicks. But it's like the application of it on a consistent basis. That's hard, it's like train, it's like going to the gym. It's like it's hard, it's like going to the gym, it's like it's easy, it's like dieting.
Dr Olivia Kessel:Yeah.
Lisa Chan:Dieting. It's like you know what you should do once you learn it, but it's like how do I stick to it? How do?
Dr Olivia Kessel:I and apparently it takes 66 days or longer to form a habit. I know there's a whole bunch of other information on social media about how long it is to form a habit. But it's hard work. It's not easy. Like anything, it's not easy, but the proof is in the pudding in terms of the results you get if you do stick to it. But if you regress you can always get back on it again. I think that's important for people to realize as well.
Lisa Chan:Yes, the journey is not going to be linear, and I tell that to parents all the time because it's setting those realistic expectations. Yes, you might have these really good days, things are going well, but there will be dips, and it's. It's going to oscillate and that's normal. Because when I don't tell parents, it's normal when they have those dips are like, oh my gosh, nothing's working anymore. And and no, the truth is that it's part of life. It's part of our lives, part of our kids' life. Everyone is going to oscillate, but it's as long as the oscillation is going in an upward trend. That's what you need to see. That's when you know that you're moving in the right direction and you're not just staying stagnant and you're not getting stuck in a bad cycle. You need to, and that upward trend is about that consistency. You have to know how to get yourself in that routine and, again, be okay to reach out for help, find accountability, partners and coaches that can keep you on the right page and moving in the right direction.
Dr Olivia Kessel:That's an excellent way now to talk about what you offer Lisa in terms of coaching and some of the way now to talk about what you offer Lisa, in terms of coaching and some of the courses you offer. I know you're in Canada, but you work with people all around the world, so tell us a little bit about what you offer.
Lisa Chan:So I offer one-on-one parent coaching.
Lisa Chan:I support families who are struggling with challenging behaviors and I specialize with families who have kids on the spectrum, have ADHD, different diagnoses, even if your family doesn't have a diagnosis for your child. If you're experiencing challenges with behaviors and you're feeling that stress, that's something that we really get to the root of why is happening. We we peel back the layers and we figure out what's going on in your unique family. That's that's the unique trait of my coaching is that I don't just give cookie cutter strategies and just kind of give that to everyone I work with. It's really specific to what is going on in your day to day life and what else that I offer is really giving you that one on one support in that emotional piece, because it's such a an emotional journey for parents to be facing the behaviors and to know if you're you're on the right track. There are days where parents they literally they come into my sessions and they are crying and that's okay because I hold that space for them. But also I'm very practical in my strategies. We find the solutions that work for your family and if there are specific things that are going on in your day, I tell parents bring that to session, because who else is going to help you with those things If you are struggling with your child who's whining all the time and you don't know how to respond to it and you're worried?
Lisa Chan:Am I making it worse by my approach? Am I just amplifying the whining and not reinforcing skill building? Well, let's talk about it. Let's see what you're doing in that moment. Let's peel back. Okay, how is your child responding? What can you do differently? Okay, let's practice that. Let's role play or I get them to actually record themselves, because that's what gets parents in that zone and shift old habits into new habits. Shift old habits into new habits. It's working on tonality, it's working on posture. So we really get into so many aspects in my coaching to pinpoint the thing that is causing that stress in your home.
Lisa Chan:And then I also offer a course all about emotional regulation. So if you're feeling like your, your home right now is chaos. There's tantrums all the time, there's constant meltdowns and maybe even aggressive behaviors. My course really unpacks that. What is the cause of these behaviors? And it's rooted in emotional regulation. Why is your child struggling with, with managing those emotions? What can you do about it and what are the pillars of emotional regulation. There are five that I've come up with that really hit the nail on the head for families of when there's problems in any of these five pillars, that's where you need to target and so when, when we can get to the problem and that root cause, we really start to see change and improvements in your child's behaviors, and this is going to help them out, not just like for today. This is for building a resilient child for the future, so that they are going to be independent thinkers, problem solvers, they're going to be confident kids with high self-esteem, and that's what we want for our kids. We want them to feel good about themselves.
Dr Olivia Kessel:So you kind of help people to look underneath the tip of that iceberg to figure out what's going on and to find the solutions and strategies that are needed to help them. So that sounds wonderful, and I will include in the show notes your details and your website so people can reach out to you as well, because you know it's as you said, you need a village to raise a child and unfortunately we don't have villages anymore. So it's great to have someone with your kind of services available, and I know I run a SEND parenting community as well. I think we have a little over a hundred members and it comes up quite a bit in conversation, this emotional dysregulation, and you know how to deal with the conflict and how to deal with the aggressive behavior.
Dr Olivia Kessel:And you know it just gets worse and it gets less manageable as kids get older and maybe bigger than you and have things that they can. You know the problem doesn't go away, so you need to learn how to deal with it, and the sooner you do, the better and the better. The more your child then gets supported and the more then your child can go on to feel confident and supported and problem solved, going forward as well. So I would highly recommend anyone who is struggling with this to reach out and contact you Now, lisa. At the end of every podcast, I ask my guests to tell me three top tips that parents could take away with them in their pocket after listening to this episode. So what are your three top tips?
Lisa Chan:So I would say my three top tips are, in summary of this whole conversation, my three takeaways is number one create your village, find the people around you who can support you so you don't get into burnout, and make them accessible to you. Number two is knowing what your stress relievers are and also making that accessible to you as a parent, Because not only is the support system important, it's also what's the thing that's going to re-energize you.
Dr Olivia Kessel:Because we forget so much we neglect ourselves.
Lisa Chan:Make it accessible. A really good example is if you love yoga, have that yoga mat sitting at the door and buy yourself the yoga pass. You've already paid for it, so it's there for you and you just have to call up your support system. Who can watch your child and you go? Something as simple as that.
Dr Olivia Kessel:Or if you have to do it online, do it online Like what Find your way?
Lisa Chan:Yeah, exactly, Find your way whatever's going to work for you. And the third one is ask yourself why five times? So when you see a behavior, ask yourself why is my child behaving that way? You might come up with they're just being manipulative. But why? Well, maybe they kind of just want my attention because I haven't really been able to give it to them. Why do they want your connection? Because they feel lonely, they feel misunderstood. All right, so now we're getting somewhere, Asking yourself why helps you to peel back the layers to get to the answer you're looking for.
Dr Olivia Kessel:I like that. The five whys that's really good. That's really excellent. Thank you, Lisa. It's been an absolute pleasure to have you on the podcast today so much valuable information, and I really appreciate you taking the time to talk to us.
Lisa Chan:Thank you so much for having me.
Dr Olivia Kessel:Thank you for listening. Send Parenting Tribe. If you haven't already, please click on the link in the show notes to join us in the private Send Parenting WhatsApp community. It's been wonderful to be able to communicate with everyone in the community and for us to join together to help each other to navigate challenges and to also celebrate successes. Wishing you and your family a really good week ahead, thank you, you, you.