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SEND Parenting Podcast
Welcome to the Send Parenting Podcast. I'm your neurodiverse host, Dr Olivia Kessel, and, more importantly, I am a mother to my wonderfully neurodivergent daughter, Alexandra, who really inspired this podcast.
As a veteran in navigating the world of neurodiversity, I have uncovered a wealth of misinformation, alongside many answers and solutions that were never taught to me in medical school or in any of the parenting handbooks.
Each week on this podcast, I will be bringing the experts to your ears to empower you on your parenting crusade.
SEND Parenting Podcast
Parenting while autistic with Jessica Whalley, author of The Autistic Mom
This episode provides a deep dive into the raw and insightful journey of Jessica Whalley as a neurodivergent parent navigating the complexities of raising her nonverbal autistic son. Jessica's personal revelations about her own diagnoses of autism and ADHD offer a profound perspective into the world of neurodiversity while providing support for other parents facing similar challenges.
- Jessica's journey began with her son Jude's autism diagnosis
- The emotional and practical challenges of securing support within the education system
- Importance of parenting self-care and maintaining personal well-being
- Embracing individuality and redefining success for neurodivergent children
- The role of community support in shared parenting experiences
- Insights into the unique challenges faced by neurodivergent women
Join our community today and share your journey with like-minded parents!
Click here for The Autistic Mom by Jessica Whalley
www.sendparenting.com
Welcome to the Send Parenting Podcast. I'm your neurodiverse host, dr Olivia Kessel, and, more importantly, I'm mother to my wonderfully neurodivergent daughter, alexandra, who really inspired this podcast. As a veteran in navigating the world of neurodiversity in a UK education system, I've uncovered a wealth of misinformation, alongside many answers and solutions that were never taught to me in medical school or in any of the parenting handbooks. Each week on this podcast, I will be bringing the experts to your ears to empower you on your parenting crusade. If you're looking for a safe space to connect with other parents navigating their neurodiverse journey, our private WhatsApp community offers support, insights and real conversations with like-minded parents who truly understand. Join the conversation today. You can find the link in the show notes.
Speaker 1:In today's episode, I have an incredibly powerful conversation with Jessica Wally, author of the Autistic Mom. Jessica's journey into understanding neurodiversity started where so many parents' journeys begin through her child. As she navigated life raising her nonverbal autistic son, she began to recognize signs of her own neurodivergence. It wasn't until the age of 38 that she finally received her diagnosis of autism and ADHD. Her story is one of raw honesty, resilience and discovery, shedding light on the often overlooked experiences of neurodivergent women. In this episode, jessica shares what it was like to piece together her identity, while also advocating for her son, the challenges she faced along the way and why the Autistic Mom.
Speaker 1:Her book is more than just a memoir it's a lifeline for parents and adults still searching for answers. So grab a cup of tea, settle in and join us for this heartfelt discussion about self-discovery, diagnosis and the reality of raising a neurodivergent child as a neurodivergent parent. So welcome, jessica. It is a pleasure to have you on the SEND Parenting Podcast today to talk about your book, the Autistic Mom. It's such a it's a really personal and deeply, you know, sharing journey about your diagnosis to autism. Can you take us like through back to the moment where you suspected you might be autistic and have ADHD and what was the like, kind of like that realization for you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and thanks for having me, olivia. Um, yeah, so I had no experience at all with uh, autism and ADHD until, um, my son, jude, was diagnosed age three with autism. So before that I didn't know anything, didn't know anyone that had any um diagnosis children or adults Um, adults um, and then, like I said, he was diagnosed just before he turned four um, and then obviously I got to work then on researching everything that I could and um getting him the support he needed for school and an EHCP and things like that. So I obviously learned a lot along the way um, and then I did whatever courses were available from um um, like the speech and language team, and then you know the child development team, things like that. So I've met a lot of other parents and just the more that I identified with it, more so with the routine side of things, how I like to be, I've always liked to be in a routine. The social aspect of it as in it doesn't come naturally to me to socialize or like pick up social cues um, make eye contact um, right from when I was younger. Um, obviously it's something you'll learn um, so I can and do do it, but it's not what I naturally feel it, feel it doesn't feel natural to me.
Speaker 2:Um, yeah, and the honesty aspect of it there was. There was a certain course and it said if you know, there was something along the lines of if everyone in the world was autistic, this is how it'd be. And it was like everyone would like tell the truth and not, you know, um, have hidden meanings to what they're saying or what they're doing or things like that. And you know, my husband, jude's dad, was with me and I said to him that's just, that's just me, I'm just so honest that you know, which is not what people are used to, that you know, some people don't like it, but I, literally, I just can't, I can't fake it.
Speaker 2:I've always been that way and that has also caused trouble because that's socially sometimes not appropriate. Um, so, yeah, but it's never been. It was always just, I was always just a bit different. Obviously, I'm what you would call high functioning, which I don't like that term, but it's the only term that we can use but I was obviously high functioning, but I've always been different, just little ways. And yeah, then, when I got all this information, I realised that, you know, it is something that carries through to adulthood as well, which again is something that I wouldn't really have thought about. Um, yeah, I just realized, you know, that I identified with it and it was something that at the, at the very beginning, it wasn't something that, um, I felt I needed to get a diagnosis for, I just thought, you know, you know, I know that Jude um is not, is autistic. Now, um, I most likely am Um and that explains some things, and that was that.
Speaker 1:But you know, at the time being um, so, yeah, that's how I originally discovered that your realization kind of through your son of the, a lot of the characteristics or the things you were learning about as you learn more about autism and about him. Yeah, you, it resonated with you, but there wasn't really you didn't feel like that push to go and have a diagnosis. What then led you to have a diagnosis?
Speaker 2:so, um, I explain in a lot of detail in the book, but basically, um, in 2018, um I I was planning our wedding, which is obviously a stressful time and obviously, since Jude was diagnosed neurodivergent, parents will know that. You know it's. It is stressful, it's hard work, not even so much the child, but just the fights that you have to have to get them the support they need and the funding and for the education and all those different, and then there is like the worry of what's the future going to look like for them. You know all that stuff and a lot of stress, as well as normal adult life, like you know, paying your bills and work and everything else. Um, so, 2018, I just think I had it. I just had too many things to juggle, um, and I've always been really good at coping with stress and things like that, but obviously I've not had all of these things before at once, and I had, um, pretty much a mental health breakdown, um, where I got to the point where I which I, I'm not someone who asks for help or says anything's wrong, I just deal with things on my own um, and I thought I need to go to the doctor. I couldn't. My brain just wouldn't switch off, but it was affecting me just constantly. And then, because of that, um, I was sad, because it's not nice to feel like that um, and it was just going on and on and I just thought I need to go and see the doctor, which I'm not someone who takes medication either. I don't. You know, before this journey, I didn't even take paracetamol. I'm just not. I just don't. I'm not someone who thinks like you can just pop a pill and you know it's fixed. Um, so I went to the doctor and this was the start of the whole journey in 2018.
Speaker 2:Now, this is what happens to most people, um, particularly women, um, that end up being neurodivergent and, in my opinion, to a lot of women who don't even know that the neurodivergent and, in my opinion, to a lot of women who don't even know that they're neurodivergent at the moment. So I went to the doctor and was told that I had anxiety and depression, which didn't sit with me, because I wasn't depressed about anything. I wasn't, like I said. I was sad that I couldn't enjoy life because I was so overwhelmed, but I wasn't sad about anything. In particular, like you know, there wasn't anything wrong with my life or anything, and also anxiety.
Speaker 2:I've never been a worrier, as in. You know, a lot of people with anxiety say they worry about getting ill or the family getting ill or having a car crash, or what if this happens? What if that like I've never been like that it was just the overwhelm in the in the mind that it just wouldn't turn off. I couldn't process thoughts, it was just. But obviously GPs I mean this was like what seven years ago. I mean it's still pretty much the same now.
Speaker 1:They don't have yeah, it's too bad. We can't say oh, now it's much better yeah, it's still pretty much the same hopefully with you, with books like yours and with podcasts, it will get better. I do think so?
Speaker 2:yeah, it definitely is, because my gp now, um, you know, is very aware, but she's only learning through patients. This isn't. She's not being given training. Yeah, it's not in medical school, no, um, so hopefully you know that will improve. But yeah, so gps aren't taught any of this, so they wouldn't know, you know, to spot the signs and what questions to ask and things like that. So I was then put on antidepressants.
Speaker 1:It's not part of their differential diagnosis and they kind of go up the wrong tree antidepressants?
Speaker 2:um. I went through six different antidepressants um, none of which helped um. Now I know it's because that wasn't the problem. Depressed um, that wasn't going to fix the problem because that problem wasn't there, obviously. Um. And then during this time, I was then researching things myself, reading books. There was one particular Dr Amen, who's based in the US. He's a child psychiatrist and neuro, not a neurosurgeon, neurophysicist, something like that.
Speaker 1:Neuropsychiatrist.
Speaker 2:Works with the brain anyway, basically, works with works with the brain anyway, basically, and he is very experienced in adhd, including from personal life. Some of his family his wife and his some of his kids have got adhd. So, um, his books really helped um, and I do plan on going to visit him at some point, um, in the future. Me, I'm jude, um, but basically, um, I learned that the the seven different kinds of ADHD and different treatments and supplements for each different kind like they don't it's not all one size fits all, um, and yet after, so, yeah, took, so that was 2018. 2023 was when I got the two diagnoses separately at different points in the year, and then, yeah, then you know, I've been settled now for about a year, but, yeah, that's why I ultimately went to get the diagnosis. But, yeah, that's why I ultimately went to get the diagnosis because, after trying the antidepressants for so long and it not working, the GP also supplied therapy working with had some experience in neurodivergence and obviously I'd spoke to her about Jude and told her what I'd learned and she agreed that she thought I was autistic. So she referred me to have the assessment. Once I had the assessment, I don't know if you're going to ask more about this, but I'll just like tie it in. No, go ahead, it's fine. Once I'd had the assessment I don't know if you're going to ask more about this, but I'm I'll just like and tie it in, so go ahead.
Speaker 2:Once I'd had that assessment for autism, um, I actually was seeing another therapist that was more experienced in neurodivergence and she said I can't believe you wasn't dual diagnosed, um, and I was like what do you mean? And she said autism and ADHD. And I said, again, not knowing anything about ADHD, I thought ADHD was someone who was physically hyperactive. I just think of like a naughty little boy who's like climbing the walls, you know, can't sit. Still, that's not how I am. Now I know that that's not always the case and that it's my brain that's hyperactive. It's not. I'm not physically hyperactive.
Speaker 1:Um, again, because there's all different and you can be not hyperactive at all.
Speaker 2:In fact, a lot of women present as inattentive.
Speaker 1:So yeah, it's. It's interesting because, like, it's a small percentage, even with boys it's 10 to 15 percent and and less so with girls that present hyperactive. But for all of us, me included as a doctor, we think of ad ADHD as this you know, hyperactive boy bouncing off the walls, and with girls it doesn't present that way at all.
Speaker 2:A lot of specialists actually now diagnose ADD and not ADHD. So they take out the H for hyperactivity because, yeah, it's not actually the big defining factor of that.
Speaker 1:It never has been, though, which is the funny thing, even in the, in the, in the diagnostic criteria, it's you know it's one of the subtypes, it's not the biggest subtype and it's you know. So it's I don't know, it's, it's just popular, kind of you know it's, it's what's stuck in everyone's mind, including clinicians, yeah, yeah. So it's interesting, and even, as you say, hyperactivity in the mind, the way hyperactivity can present for girls and some boys too, can be very different.
Speaker 2:It's not an external, it can be an internal thing, exactly, yeah, so yeah, that's how I ended up going down that route. So the therapist. So then I read up a bit about ADHD. Now I'd had to wait, wait a year, over a year, to get the autism assessment from referral to being assessed, um, which actually is quite fast. It is, yeah, well, that was the case then, that it's not now. I think it's about four years now, um, but but at this point because I was still struggling.
Speaker 2:So, even though I'd had the autism diagnosis, obviously for autism there's not any medication that can help or anything. It's just, you know, you have to learn how to manage it. Um, but I knew then for ADHD that there is medication that can help and, as I said, this is like years down the line. I'm still struggling. So I thought I can't wait another year, um, for the NHS diagnosis. I can't like, because you can't get the medication without a psychiatrist diagnosis. So I thought I'm going to have to go private. So, um, I went, I researched a clinic, went to them um, did the assessment, had the diagnosis and then started trying a medication. The first one I tried didn't help, but then the second one did, and that's the one that I'm still on now. So this is like nearly two years later.
Speaker 2:Um, so yeah, it's. It was just the best thing I ever did to get the diagnosis and start that medication and, like I said, it's not for everyone, um, and it's also not a magic pill. I'm not sure if you um take medication, olivia, but it's not obviously a magic pill. I'm not sure if you take medication, olivia, but it's not obviously something that you take, and then everything's great, but it massively. If you were struggling severely, like I was, with daily life, it is a huge help and I know that other people-.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I describe it like you know, you have four wheels to run an ADHD car successfully. One of those wheels is medication, yeah. Then there's sleep and exercise, then there's nutrition and then there's also adjustments that need to be made to support you in life or in school, and you need all four of them to kind of go keep the car aligned. But medication is actually really, really positive for a lot of children and adults up to 90%, you know, really feel a massive difference. There are 10% of people who don't, but yeah, I think you know a lot of the experience I have within this.
Speaker 2:It can be life changing, but it's one part of the life. Yeah, exactly, you can't just do that and then not do anything else. Definitely you do have to change lifestyle. Also a big thing with with autism as well, a big thing for me was the fact that I could, you know, read information about it and understand myself, which was a big thing, because when you don't have a diagnosis or any answers, you kind of feel like you're going crazy, like why am I feeling like this, especially on, like you know, worst days, or for women, when you're hormonal, um, premenstrual. You think you know that you're losing your mind. But obviously now I've got the experience and the knowledge to know that this is why you feel like this today. It will pass, because it's always passed before, and talk myself through it, you know, and that is also a big part of it, definitely, yeah.
Speaker 1:So it sounds like you've been, though you've been really a self advocate for yourself and you've really fought to get answers and then to to progress in terms of getting the support that you need for yourself, and all the while that you were doing this, you were also raising Jude, who was nonverbal and came with his own set of challenges while you're going through your challenges. So what were some of the biggest struggles you faced, kind of, and were these journeys happening in time with each other?
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, so 2018, so when it all all really started.
Speaker 2:So Jude was four then. So, um, like I said, one of the reasons it got to the point it did with my mental health was because of, um, his diagnosis. So, yeah, he got diagnosed just before he was four, so it was all around that same time. Um, so, yeah, it was learning all about that and getting his diagnosis and dealing with that as a parent, and then, um, yeah, dealing with the personal things as well. Um, so, yeah, it was all at the same time.
Speaker 2:So this is one of the reasons why I've wrote the book. Well, the main reason, to be honest, is because it was such hard work and it was such a struggle that I and, by the way, unnecessarily, because if our GPs had the training that they should have, they should have been able to recognize from the start, they should have known what medication I should take. I mean, the years and years that I had to do it all for myself shouldn't have been the case and hopefully in the future, that won't be the case. But, um, yeah, it's the book. Hopefully, like I said, I've done, I've wrote that so that other women in particular don't have to go through what I did because, for some reasons as well, um, some people won't have the ability to do that. Um, you know, I was, like, um, working at home didn't have to work. Um, you know, some people do for financial reasons, so they won't have the time to spend doing what I did. Um, they might have, like other um issues. They might be more vulnerable. They might, you know, I mean they might have like other um issues. They might be more vulnerable. They might, you know, I mean they might not have the experience I've got with different jobs to to enable them to know what to do and where to look.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I, um, I really wanted to share that information so they know that there is light at the end of the tunnel, or even give them the information that you know that is needed. Um, so, yeah, yeah, I mean it's, it's. Obviously I never like to say, you know, I mean and I think this is something you know parents of neurodivergent children struggle with I never like to say it's hard. And when people, you know, when I tell people, like if I meet new people and I tell them that Jude's autistic and that he's nonverbal, you know they often say, oh, I'm sorry about that and like I hate that, like that drives me crazy, cause it's like no, he's, he's the best you know person in the world, like he really is.
Speaker 1:I so understand you. I had someone tell me that my daughter was special and I almost stabbed them, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2:I'm not a violent person.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's just like. Yeah, I mean. And it's also a lack of knowledge too, because being nonverbal that doesn't mean he isn't going to be verbal at some point.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, verbal. That doesn't mean he isn't going to be verbal at some point. Yeah, I mean it's and it's. I'm not, and I mean this genuinely. He is the best company. If I had to choose company, it'd be him, and he can't even speak. So the rest of him, you know, is like he's, just I'm like.
Speaker 2:You know, he is getting there, he is making sounds and things and you know, um, I do believe that he will, but that's something again, before I, I got um treatment and things. That's something I was really hung up on. All I could think about and hyper focus on was when he was going to speak. When he was going to speak, what we could do to. But eventually, um, I taught myself to let that go, because number one, um, we do everything we can. Nothing we do is going to stop him speaking.
Speaker 2:If he is supposed to speak, um, we do everything we can to help him get to that point and get those connections within the brain, um, but within the brain, um, but we can't do any more than what we do. Um. And also, I thought you know, you're just going to worry his childhood away and one day, soon, because it goes so quick, he's going to be like 21 and you're going to think all I did for his entire childhood was worry about when he was going to talk, when actually, in the big scheme of things, that's not the most important thing. He's healthy and he's happy. And there's people who've got sick children who would give anything to have them healthy if they didn't speak. But they wasn't ill, you know. So it's just things like that. I had to talk myself around because Put it in perspective for yourself.
Speaker 1:I'm forgetting the name, but there's a cambridge professor who I think it's jason our day.
Speaker 2:He's someone. That's it. He's. Yes, I mean he's someone I've spoke with. I always mention him. I had a presentation in a school yesterday and I mentioned him. He's actually in the process of reading my book and I'm going to get some feedback off him because he is a big inspiration for me.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, he was a couple of years ago in the press because he was the first black professor at Cambridge University in sociology, but he didn't speak till he was 11 and he didn't read or write until he was 18 and he's autistic and he just says you know, in basic terms, that it's because his mum never gave up, never gave up and worked with him at home and, you know, supported him, because this is like. You know, this was maybe 10, 15 years ago as well, so there wasn't even as much information as what there is now. So you know his mum really done a great job advocating and supporting him and you know he's now got to the place he's got to. So it is definitely possible. There's many people like that over the world I've spoke to over the last few years.
Speaker 1:It's kind of letting go in your mind of what we think of as quote unquote normal for our children like you said, and letting that go and letting our kids just be that be who they are, exactly, exactly, yeah, and that's just what I do now.
Speaker 2:I don't put pressure on him or myself. I mean, that is a big. The biggest difficulty with parenting neurodivergent children, in my opinion, is the pressure on us, which often falls to mums. Um, is that, like I said, so, jason, our day, his mum never gave up and, did you know, supported him and went above and beyond. But we have to do that, um, to help our children reach the potential that they can, um, and that is a lot of pressure, um, but you know, that is that is our role, um and we. It's something that we need to do. And also, the other side is the battle that we have with, particularly with regards to education and support and funding that the child needs, because it doesn't just get given to them. And that's another reason I wanted to write the book was because, once I went through the whole process of finding you a suitable SEN school and getting the funding for it, which was a big battle with our local council, again, a lot of parents don't understand that it is your choice as the parent to choose the school you don't have to get.
Speaker 2:Take the, the school that you're, that you're given. You don't just have to accept it or feel like you're lucky because you've been given that you know you need. You can still go and look around schools. Obviously there's problems with spaces and things like that. But if you find a school that is better for your child than what you have been given, then it is your right and your child's right to fight for that school. It doesn't matter how much you know it costs it. Your child has the right to support that is individual to them, and neurotypical parents, you know, don't have to go through that. Obviously every school is different, but in general you do. You know you choose the school your child goes to. Hopefully you get the one they want and then that's just that. That's not the same for us and it's not throughout the whole school life and then beyond, which is another story altogether, but you know.
Speaker 1:It's so much stress, so much pressure on you and you talk in your book about, like this emotional toll as well of constantly and it's true, constantly having to advocate for your child. Is there any advice you would give to parents, like you know, In terms of the uphill battle?
Speaker 2:I mean, like I said, you definitely do need to step away from comparing your child and trying to hit certain milestones and totally focusing on those things. You just need to. Obviously, number one is that, as long as the child is happy and healthy, but just remember that you can only do so much and so can they. That was another thing that it got to the point where I felt like me and his dad were always just working with Jude and not enjoying him. So he was at school and he'd come home and then we'd still want to carry on doing. I mean obviously not like sit down working, but different things, and you know it got. You know that's you can't. You can't do that.
Speaker 2:They also need time to play and be alone and enjoy time with you, whether not, you know, just working on things or learning. You know, because they are learning other things whilst they're doing that as well, um, so, yeah, um, and also a huge thing I would say that I've learned, um is that you need to look after yourself. Um, that is a major thing, because my life I mean it still does, but my life completely revolved around Jude, um, like obsessively, probably, and because that's probably because of my own neurodivergence. But, um, you, you need to you, and, and the saying is, you know, you can't look after anyone else if you don't look after yourself. And it's so true, and it's not selfish, um, and it's not a luxury, it's, it's a priority. You have to take time, either schedule it in, um, or, if you feel yourself starting to burn out, recognize it and, um, you know, put things in place to, to, to take the time to do whatever it is, even if it's just sitting in silence watching a film or, you know, reading.
Speaker 2:It doesn't have to be anything, um, you know major um, also, as I introduced, uh, meditation, which I do twice a day, only for 10 minutes. But if you would have told me before, um, you're going to be able to fit that into your busy day, I would have been like no, no, no, I can't, like I can't, because I had tried it in the past. But I think at the time then, like a year or two ago, I was ready, um, and, like I said, I do that twice a day. Um, do Pilates three times a week, um, so you have to you week Um, so you have to, you have to fit it in, you have to, and you know, um, I am working on trying to have time alone or socialize more as well. Um, because, again, like you, you need. You need to do that, you've got to get very isolated.
Speaker 1:You've got to have yeah definitely, and you've got to.
Speaker 2:Yes, you have got a child, um, but it isn't selfish to also want time for yourself as an individual, as an adult, um, and also, on the flip side, it's good for them to spend time with other people for a lot of reasons. You know, um, you know me and Jude's dad are well. We're currently getting divorced but we co-parent really well and he does totally different things with Jude to what I do, um, you know, and when he goes to see his grandparents or, um, my sister, his auntie, you know they do totally different things, whereas in the past I wanted him to just be doing the same thing with everyone that he does with me. But again, that was probably a bit because of my own neurodivergence, but I was just so like, strict and wanted to control it.
Speaker 2:Um, but yeah, you can't and don't need to do that and it's good for the child not to do that and also for them to make. You know, connections with other people. For whatever reason, you're not going to be available 24-7. You could be ill, you might have to work, whatever reasons it is. So you know, you do need to give them that time with other people as well.
Speaker 1:It builds up their confidence as well, other people as well. It builds up their confidence as well. You know it's interesting because there's it sounds like you know there's positives and negatives maybe to being neurodivergent parent with a neurodivergent child. You know, and it's kind of, how do you navigate that?
Speaker 2:you know, yeah, so yeah it's because some people obviously do think they would just think that if you're autistic, you can't possibly be a good parent, which, well, that's not true at all. Number one, I think I'm such a good parent, jude, which I'm proud. That's not. I'm not being arrogant, like I know, and I get told a lot by professionals that I am. Um, it's because I can relate to him, uh, I understand him. So, even though he's non-verbal, obviously, as his mother, I know how he's trying to communicate. It's like, you know, babies that can't talk yet the mum generally knows what the, you know the communicating. But, and because I understand him, in certain situations he might get upset and nobody else will know why it is. Um, but I will either know why it is that there could be a noise that nobody else could hear, or he might have, you know, not slept well, or we might have had some busy days and he's just like overwhelmed. You know sensory wise, but I also know how to make him feel better, which, again, nobody else would know. Um, so it actually it happened last weekend um, he'd actually slept okay, um, he'd got up a bit early, but he just started crying and he was upset. Now, that's the hardest thing with having a non-verbal child is that if you don't know what's wrong with them, it's just heartbreaking. But because he's not a crier, it's very, very rare.
Speaker 2:I knew that he wasn't physically hurt. I asked him to show me if anything was hurting, if he felt sick. He was with me. So I knew he hadn't, you know, had an accident or anything, um, so I just said to him you can go upstairs, um, we'll put you in bed, you can have your ipad, get cozy, just have a little bit of time on your own. Um, basically what I would do if, um, I felt a bit overwhelmed or just like I needed some space. You know, took him up there and then it was like 10 minutes later he fell asleep, which Jude does not nap, so clearly he was just a little bit tired, just needed some space and but, you know, nobody else would understand that. So, yeah, things like that and also the routine. So, from when he was diagnosed and we knew that he was going to be nonverbal for the foreseeable future Again like I researched verbal for the foreseeable future, um, again like I researched that's another point the hyper focus that we can have.
Speaker 2:Um, I don't like to generalize, but it is a general thing that a skill autistic and or adhd people have is the ability to hyper focus on things that they're interested in. So me having that being able to hyper focus on finding everything out I could for jude's has definitely been another benefit of me being neurodivergent as well. Um, but the routine that I have and the way I live is best for him as well. Um, you know, we have a very quiet home, we have a routine, um, and not like strict, it's not like obsessive um, and if we go out for the day or, you know, we go on holiday, that's all fine, but I just make sure that the change is explained in advance and I show in the pictures of where we're going and the picture of the plane, and you know, like that, um, and again, I've wrote all these like tips in the book just because all of that stuff come naturally to me again, because I understood his need for it. Um, so, yeah, there are definitely benefits to it.
Speaker 2:Um, you know, there obviously are uh downsides as well to being neurodivergent and being a parent, especially at the beginning, um, when you're obviously adjusting and also, obviously the people that are undiagnosed won't understand why it is so overwhelming, because everyone that you know, everyone that has a child, it's new, it's changed. It's overwhelming for everyone, um, but it's more so for neurodivergent people. But if they're undiagnosed as well, they won't know that it's different to what everybody else feels, um, so it's a, because nobody can prepare being a parent until you are one. It doesn't matter how much babysitting you've done, it doesn't matter if you work with kids. It doesn't matter how much people have told you it doesn't matter, does it? Until you have a child, you can't understand the reality of it.
Speaker 1:That's why I love people who don't have children when they give you advice on it and it's just like.
Speaker 2:I've heard people say you know, who haven't? Got kids, but they've got dogs and they say it's just as hard. I'm like, yeah, no, you can't lock them up in the kitchen and go away.
Speaker 1:You can't send them to kennels, you know, for two weeks while you go on holiday.
Speaker 2:You know, um, I know it's crazy, but um, yeah, because it's so all consumingconsuming, um, and something I learned when I was um diagnosed with autism. I asked the um the nurse that done the assessment. I said to her, why have I been able to cope for 38 years? Um, you know well enough, um, without getting to the point where I'm at now. And she explained that, yeah, it's a lifelong condition. So is ADHD.
Speaker 2:But when you go through times of severe stress or trauma, that exuberates the traits. So obviously, like I said earlier, with everything that I had on all at once, that just totally, it just overwhelmed and I couldn't mask or pretend that those traits weren't there any longer. And that is, I know we're going to speak about a little bit later. But that is one of the reasons why women go undiagnosed for so long and it's normally around the middle age or when they become parents that they do get diagnosed, because it's just not sustainable to cope with everything that comes with that and mask and behave how you're supposed to behave as well. Um, you just can't it, just you just can't do it yeah, it becomes over, it becomes overloaded too much.
Speaker 2:Yeah completely, um, which, like I said, is what happened with me. But, um, you know, being a parent and for anyone is hard, like I said, you know anyone who says it's not, it is a liar. Um, you know, being a parent and for anyone is hard, like I said, you know, anyone who says it's not, it is a liar. You know the, the, unless they've got a team of nannies, which most of us don't have, so unfortunately. But yeah, I mean, and like for autism in particular. So obviously your whole environment changes in a sensory way as well.
Speaker 2:So I would say, if you're autistic, you're probably quite organized and have everything in a place. Um, that obviously all changes when a baby comes and all their kit comes with you, and the nappies and the pram, and you know the different seats and everything else, and the fact that you don't have time to tidy up as much and keep on top of things, for you know, a long time while you adjust, and then also the smells, the different smells that come with a baby. Also the fact that if you're not someone who wants constant touch, well, your baby, at least for the first couple of months, you know, jude slept on me, on my chest, for the first six weeks, and I'm not saying that I didn't like that, I did, but for some people, um, that is very hard too much because, and then you're not sleeping as well, so that also makes the biggest thing.
Speaker 2:The sleep which I know again is is, you know, tough for everyone um neurotypical, neurodivergent, everyone but um for people whose brains work differently. We do need to recharge um more than other people do, and if we're not getting that sleep, um, obviously that recharge doesn't happen and it's it's just like a vicious circle.
Speaker 1:Then um so yeah, and then the hormones as well, after having given birth you know that. That's there exactly.
Speaker 2:It's a perfect storm really exactly because, again, we'll speak um a bit more about it in a little bit but hormones drastically affect women with adhd, which, again, um is something that is not very well known, but it's getting better, like you said, with these podcasts and books and things like that and people speaking about it in the public eye. But yeah, neurodivergence, particularly ADHD, is very much hormone led in women, how severely you suffer or not.
Speaker 1:So yeah, and the fluctuations, and I think that's also why girls you know it's multifactorial while girls get diagnosed later, partially from different symptoms that we've mentioned and how they mask and how they compensate, but you know, when a lot of girls get diagnosed just around the time of puberty and also a lot of women get diagnosed right around the time of menopause, because the hormones are, their ability to cope is then kind of the rug is pulled out from under their feet. Yeah, exactly so yeah.
Speaker 2:So on the point of women and men, or males and females being diagnosed, so yeah, obviously there is a big increase now on females, women and females being diagnosed. So yeah, obviously there is a big increase now on females, women and children being diagnosed. Like I said, I was speaking in a school yesterday with some um, a team of SENTAs, and they were um telling me how the increase in their female students um has definitely risen and the difference they notice in the symptoms are completely different to boys. Um, because boys tend to be with adhd especially, more obviously adhd, whereas girls, you know, you have to really get to know them or watch them closely to notice that, if you will, at all. Um, and yeah, because they just present in totally different ways but obviously generally for everyone, the male and female brains are made up differently anyway, with different hormones.
Speaker 2:Um, you know, men have higher levels of serotonin than what we do, obviously, higher levels of testosterone, so they don't struggle as much getting stuck in obsessive, compulsive thoughts and routine and thoughts. Negative thought cycles, which was a big thing for me with ADHD, like I said, with that overwhelm, that's just constantly what I was doing. Negative thought cycles, like I said, with that overwhelm. That's just constantly what I was doing negative thought cycles, which is worse in women anyway, um, and men typically don't have as much self-control, because of the blood flow to the front of the cortex and than what we do. So that's why they display more obvious signs of, like we'd said, hyperactivity than what we do. Um, so, yeah, we can mask our signs better, but it doesn't mean that we're not struggling just as much, if not more, because it's all internal, um and for, particularly for children, which again was something I was discussing in school yesterday at that age of puberty, you don't want to be different and you don't want anyone to see you as different. So the majority of girls that are diagnosed and know that they're diagnosed haven't told any of the peers nobody knows because they don't want people to think that they're different or that there's anything wrong with them.
Speaker 2:Um, I mean again, this is something that I'm hoping will continue to get better in the future is the stigma of neurodivergence, because it's not wrong, it's not bad, it's not a negative thing, it's just different. You know your brain works differently, and that's. I am hoping to work more with that school about that, because I want to show them that it's those things, that it's not bad. But I do know that that age is a funny age. I mean, you don't even want a different hair color than anyone else at that age, you know so um, yeah, I know my daughter.
Speaker 1:My daughter gets her medication at school and she goes mommy, how come there's four boys in line with me to get medication? There's no girls in line with me to get medication? You know, I said, you know that you know she's at the coalface. That's well, you know that's. That's the truth of the matter, exactly um and um.
Speaker 2:Something else I wrote in the book was so yeah, I mean, the statistics are that well for autism. So 30 years ago the rates of diagnosis for um boys to girls was 10 to 1 and now it's more like 2 to 1. So that's within the last 30 years. It's probably even less now and there's approximately and again I think this is the number will be way higher. But they say that there is approximately 35,000 undiagnosed women with ADHD in the UK, thousand undiagnosed women with adhd in the uk. Um, so all these women are walking around struggling like. It honestly breaks my heart because I like, because I've been there and I know how hard it was um, and like I said, for whatever reason, some people might not cope as well as what I eventually did Um, because you know the long-term.
Speaker 1:The long-term effects of not getting diagnosed and not getting supported are pretty, pretty horrific. You know, it's a a reduction in life expectancy of 11 years, or if you add stuff like suicide and deaths due to accident, it goes up to 21 years. So I mean and failed marriages, failed work, it's got failed work.
Speaker 1:It's got a really bad trajectory if you don't get on top of it and you don't get the support in place, which to me is the same as, like you know, if you weren't diagnosed as an asthmatic, or you weren't diagnosed as a type two diabetic, you know, or if you weren't even given glasses so so you couldn't see.
Speaker 1:You know it's, it's, it's, it's got to, it's got to be thought of that way and I've talked to many people too who think, oh, I don't want to go on medication because why should I have to? But they wouldn't question why an asthmatic would carry, you know, an inhaler with them, or or let's say you're allergic to nuts, why you would have an EpiPen Nobody. But when it comes to ADHD medication, it's like oh, you're not, it's it's. You're not strong enough or you're not, you know, and and and that I'm hoping is slowly starting to change, I think it is, and I think it will more um with our younger generations.
Speaker 1:So our children my daughter's age as they grow.
Speaker 2:Exactly, and I know my nieces, um, my nieces, they're neurotypical, they both go to a mainstream school, but there are still, you know, autistic and ADHD kids in their school, because obviously, I mean, not all need to go to an SEN school, plus there isn't the places for them. But, you know, so they are growing up around it when we didn't, so they're more accepting and will see it differently. Didn't, so they're more accepting and will see it differently. And I do think that, as you know, older generation it sounds awful, but as older generations die out with their beliefs and their stigma, things will, you know, improve, so that it is thought of in that way.
Speaker 1:You know I can, you know I can see it just even in the last three years, how much it's changed. It's really gone forward which is absolutely. Books like yours bring it together and it exposes your journey and then other parents can read that and say there's a feeling of aloneness when you're going through it, that you know you described as well.
Speaker 1:That by sharing your story and other people being able to listen to it. You know that's one of the reasons I started this podcast was because I felt so alone. But you know what? We're not alone.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of us out there.
Speaker 1:I think there's 20% of the global population is neurodiverse, so that's a large percentage.
Speaker 2:At least there's 20 percent of the global population is neurodiverse, so that's a large percentage at least, and that's diagnosed right. Yeah, exactly exactly. I mean this is one of the reasons why, um, so, following um publishing the book, I've been, um working hard on trying to get into schools, um which, like I said, I was uh in one yesterday. I'm working with one in particular in the town that I live because it's so important for me.
Speaker 2:I mean, there's a million things, topics I discuss about in the book with regards to neurodivergence in different ways, where change needs to happen, but for me, the most important thing is children because, like we've just said, the trajectory of not being diagnosed will affect the rest of her life, but also society. So, you know, you need to be at that starting point and you know I don't like the word fix, but fix the problem then so that it changes the future, um, you know, because that it's easier to fix that than than try and fix it later in life. They then won't have to also go through that struggle, um, so that's why I'm really and it's not and you know I've said this, it's not about me insinuating or thinking that we want to get every single girl diagnosed, who's you know struggles a little bit or has got some issues or has got mental health I'm not saying that every child like that has you know should get a diagnosis, but there are a huge amount that should um and women and but they will get a diagnosis.
Speaker 1:They go through the correct process Like that's why I can't get a diagnosis? Because there is no. There is no history. I can't, I don't have my school records, my mom, said I can't do it. So I can't get diagnosed with ADHD, which is fine you know what. I mean my daughter can. Right, see, I have my school reports, everyone who gets diagnosed has gone through a proper process and those that's that's a valid diagnosis.
Speaker 2:People aren't being over diagnosed, you know people are being diagnosed properly. Oh God, it's hard to get a diagnosis and again, I've wrote this in the book for the people that doubt it or think that oh, there's so many, you know it's it's fake or you're exaggerating or whatever. It's hard to get a diagnosis, especially as an adult. Like you said, you can't even get one and you're a doctor and you know that you are because you don't have.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, when I got assessed, I moved seven schools in seven years. There's a lot of like, but I don't have any collaboration and you know that's okay. But so therefore I can't say I have ADHD. I suspect it, but I can't say that I have it. I can't go on medication. That's the reality of it. But I think you know people need to stop thinking that oh, it's, it's, it's it's handed out. No, it's not handed out. And it's actually it's a neurodevelopmental condition, you know, and autism and ADHD, it's.
Speaker 1:it's that the brains are working differently and it's it's a valid diagnosis, exactly.
Speaker 2:And again, so, yeah, when I went for, because obviously they are both lifelong conditions and for anyone that's listening that doesn't understand yet, because the lifelong conditions, you won't get a diagnosis if you can't prove that that is how you were when you from a child, yeah, because it's not. If it, you know, if it's just something that started showing up now or you know, then that doesn't fit. You know the diagnosis. But for me I have all my old school reports, even from primary school, so I took them and I mean it's so funny now, like, because I left school in 2000.
Speaker 2:So I was in primary school, it was like the 90s, so well, I mean ADHD wasn't even a recognized condition then. Um, anyway, autism obviously was, but that'd be for more severe, you know, like, like if the non-verbal or they're not hitting the milestones and I was like fine in that sense. Um, so yeah, but if you read the report now, knowing what I know, like it just read, like it's clear as day that you know it really is and obviously that was used to give the two diagnosis, um, and was wrote in the report like it's clear as day that you know it really is and obviously that was used to give the two diagnosis and was wrote in the report that it's obviously been there since childhood. But yeah, it's speaking about, like, yeah, people that that doubt it, and yeah, I mean it's. It's annoying and frustrating, I think it's, and it's not founded. You know what I mean? No, it's not founded.
Speaker 1:No, exactly, and I guess it kind of highlights a key point and you know we've been chatting almost an hour now, so we're going to have to wrap this up but you know, for parents who are maybe, you know, considering, they suspect maybe their child is, maybe they suspect their self is neurodivergent, what would you recommend or what would you say to them, kind of like one piece of advice that you wish maybe you had gotten from somebody when you started your journey?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean just something I want parents in that situation, if they haven't got the diagnosis for the child yet, is just, please, first of all, just please, don't be in denial about it and don't think that you know, or you don't want to give them a label, or you know, especially people that live maybe in like small towns and you know everyone, knows everyone, and they don't want the kids to stick out. None of that matters. It doesn't matter for you or for the child, it doesn't matter what other people think, because the fact fact is, particularly in primary school, if you think they're doing all right and they're fine, at some point it is going to not be all right and if you haven't got them that diagnosis, they're not going to be able to get the support that they need. So a lot of kids go through primary school under the radar, even boys. But when they go through puberty in high school and they've got the hormones and they're getting just more of a social awareness, naturally they start to recognise that they're different from the peers. They don't understand why they can't socialise as easily as the friends do and things like that. Then they start to feel like there's something wrong with them. But, as we all know at that age they're not nine times out of ten going to come home and speak to anyone about that. So then they're internalizing that they don't know how to even explain it or express it, and then this is where you know negative behavior comes from mental health problems and, you know, acting out, and ultimately, again, the trajectory of that is again like a higher percentage with boys.
Speaker 2:There's a huge percentage of men in prison that are neurodivergent and were undiagnosed, and again, I'm not making excuses for it, I'm not saying that they should be, you know, freed, because you know it's not about that, about that. It's the fact, though, that because it wasn't changed or noticed in childhood, then that has led them to take in different paths. Because, you know, a lot of people with undiagnosed adhd and autism turn to alcohol and drugs. Um, because it it calms the, the overwhelming the brain for a little bit, um, but obviously, like anything with those substances as well, after it just makes things 10 times worse, and then that's where you come into suicide, again, mental health problems. So it really just needs to be starting, you know, to hit home earlier, because everything might be fine right now or bearable, but a hundred percent it will cause problems when the older in in one way or another, it's such a key point because ignoring it it's it's it's not going to make it go away.
Speaker 1:Sadly, you know, and I've stuck my head in the ground about my daughter's ADHD for a while as well, but I eventually had to dig my own head out and you know, like the mom you said with Jason, with the Cambridge professor, he, you know the mom stuck by him and and and supported him. You're kind of forced to if your child is a nonverbal child. But if your child is maybe doing okay or or you know the, the troublemaker in school, you might, you might choose to ignore it. You know, and, and I think the message is don't ignore it. The earlier you can prevent, you put in the support and the structure and the scaffolding. You know these are the thinkers of the future, you know our neurodiverse children.
Speaker 1:They think outside of the box.
Speaker 2:We have so many problems that we need to solve in this world that we need all these brains and this is another thing I talk about in the book for either parents or for people that are diagnosed themselves or whatever. Again, it's not a negative thing. I know some people don't like and I mean neurodivergent people don't like it being called like a superpower, because that makes it sound like you know it's easy. It's not, but you know, um, the majority of the majorly successful people in the world are neurodivergent. You know, like elon Musk, things like, because once you know you have a passion, and again it's not. It's not like the stereotype of like Rain man, where everyone you know, if I tell people that Jude's autistic, they'll say what's his skill? You know, like it's like, okay, no, that's not how it works. Some do, but a small percentage do have savant skills that you know with memory and like different things like that. But generally we do all have the ability, like I was saying, to hyper-focus, but on something we're interested in. So again, to parents, what I would say is which I'm still working on withude um is to find out what their passion is and push them towards that, because, whatever that is, nobody else in the world will do it better than what they do. So, like we were saying elon musk, his thing obviously is technology and always has been. That is why he's the richest man in the world and can do everything he can, because he's he's not a divergent.
Speaker 2:And there's and there's people in different, yeah, but there's people in music. You know, I was saying this yesterday in school. You know there'll be people that they don't even realize, which you know is a shallow thing to us as adults, but to teenagers, it'll be a helpful thing for them to know that people like you know Justin Bieber, britney Spears, I've all got ADHD, like a lot of creative people have, because we are generally creative people and, like you said, you know it's just that our brain works in a different way. We might not be able to sit in a classroom and learn English, maths and science, which I mean won't even get started on the whole education, the whole education thing. We need another podcast for that, yeah, or 20. Yeah, but you know everyone is different, regardless of whether they're neurodivergent or not. So it's and it's fine to allow your child to be that be different.
Speaker 1:And it is finding that passion, you know, and I would say even for neurotypical kids. You know why? Why have we forgotten what our passions?
Speaker 2:are.
Speaker 1:Exactly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because they're treated like sheep. They just go to school, they have to follow the curriculum, but it's like you know, they have classes of 30 children with one teacher. They have classes of 30 children with one teacher Even if they're all neurotypical, not all of them children will be at the same level, will learn in the same way, will be interested in the same things, will have the same abilities. So, yeah, it's just crazy to me but, again, hopefully that'll be something that'll change in the future. But, yeah, hopefully, the message of that just get them the help earlier.
Speaker 1:Get them the help they need sooner rather than later and as we as we wrap up this podcast, jessica, if you could give my listeners, like your, three top tips for kind of navigating neurodivergence for themselves and their children, what three top tips would you give navigating?
Speaker 2:neurodivergence for themselves and their children. What three top tips would you give? So, as a parent, I would, as I've mentioned, I would say the self-care and the understanding that you need to take care of yourself makes you you a better and happier parent, which is important as well. You don't want your kids to see you're just stressed out all the time, because everything that they see they take on as well, they soak it up, um, and also makes you a happier person for yourself, which you know is the ultimate goal, like you know, you know and again it's like so, for example, when, um, my son's dad and I, um, were discussing getting divorced. It's a similar thing where I said you know, people stay together for the kids, um, even if they're not happy, and it's not the right thing. But then you've got to ask yourself the question when they're grown-ups, your children, would you want them to stay in a situation where they're not happy, just for the sake of the kids or money or whatever it is? And the answer would be no, because you want them to be happy. So you have to think about yourself in the same way and give yourself the same advice as what you would give to your child or your friends or your family. You know and treat yourself well, because no one knows how you're thinking or feeling, but you and they never will, and that that's been the case since you were born until the day you die, you know. So you do need to focus on yourself.
Speaker 2:Um, yeah, like I said, said with your kids, not to compare them to other kids neurotypical or neurodivergent and just to celebrate the small things and to understand like I genuinely think I'm lucky to have Jude and him be how he is, because all of the little things and the milestones that are such a big deal to us and that we celebrate don't even get noticed by neurotypical um families, um, you know. So there's just more joy in that um, and also, well, there's for a lot of reasons why I think he's lucky. I'm lucky to have him, um, but, yeah, just be positive and be grateful for you and for your child that this is the path that you've been put on. Um, yeah, um, and I know.
Speaker 1:And that reframes it. You know what I mean, because I think, from the outside, looking in, like you said, with people, oh you know, poor you, poor you. Actually, that's not how it is, and I think that you've highlighted, like right, right there, how it's a beautiful journey for you and your son and you wouldn't, you wouldn't change a moment of it, you know.
Speaker 2:No, no, exactly, and the people I've met along the way and the things that I can now do and, yeah, just completely has changed my life, definitely for the better. So, yes, it has been hard, and it's harder obviously at the beginning when you first get the diagnosis, because it's all new, like I said, the majority of us don't have any experience, it's just dropped on you. But, again, because of society and what we've been raised around, it was because it's as if it's you're being given a negative, but it's not. But that's just because that's the perception we've got. Um, and yeah, that would probably be another bit of advice um is just to not really listen to other people's opinions and to try and, through different ways, whichever you feel is best, to reprogram your mind to how, to the things you've been raised as and I don't mean particularly by your parents, I mean just by the world around us about what is right and wrong, and you know another thing you're kind of preconceived, kind of yeah it's like, it's definitely yeah.
Speaker 2:And another thing I've learned which is what's, you know, subsequently ended up in the situation that we're in now at home is that, um, it's probably not suitable for a lot of neurodivergent people in particular I'm not saying all, and some neurotypicals as well to be married or to live together. But because we're raised to think that that's how we should be, so we're supposed to go to school, we should be, so we're supposed to go to school, go to college, get a job, find a partner, get a house, have kids and work till you're 65 and then retire. I mean, I now don't agree with any of that, amen, you know, I just, I just don't, but it's. And also the divorce rates speak for themselves the 50 percent above 50 percent, so, and that's just the people who have divorced. So how many people do you know that are married and unhappy? So, um, just, you know it's well, it's just true. So you know, just, don't, just yet, you know, reprogram your mind and just fact, you know, do what is true for you, do you and for your child. Don't think about it, don't worry about.
Speaker 2:A lot of parents worry about, or will they ever get married and have kids? Well, maybe they won't but that. But as long as they're happy, it doesn't matter. Why do they have to get married and have kids? That makes a lot, a hell of a lot of people unhappy. So you know, if they're happy on their own, then that's how they should be. Happiness is different to everyone. You know. It is particularly neurodivergent. A lot of the time you want to be alone, um, and that isn't sad. Yes, sometimes you know you will need to push them out of the comfort zone because it's good for your mental health to have connections, but we don't particularly want to be around and socialize people with people as much as what neurotypical people do. And again, though, that's fine. So just allow yourself that and explain it to the people around you, and if they don't get it, then they're not worth being around you anyway, frankly.
Speaker 1:So I think those are. Those are great words to end on, because I think that is great advice. Just do you and rip up the book that you think of what you are supposed to be. Yeah, exactly, it's how I've lived my life and it hasn't done me any wrong. You know it's following your happiness, following who you are letting your kid follow who they are.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and teach your kids the same. Yeah, um, that's like a big thing. I actually have like a what I can't think of the word, but I owe a neon light in the kitchen that says be yourself, um, and I teach it to me, to my niece and nephews, and you know, uh, dude, obviously, and because that is the most important thing, one size doesn't fit all in anything. So, and I do think younger generations are getting that anyway, just because now they have social media and the internet and there's a lot of information available to them. So, a lot of people that you, the marriage rate is dropping because kids, you know they are now traveling and doing other things.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, as long as the happy though, taking mini retirements that's what I just heard Taking mini retirements. My daughter this morning. She said to me I hate school. I said you've only got a few years left of it that we have to actually go to it. And I said she goes well, what about college? I said you don't have to go to college. She goes what are you? I don't have to go to college. I said no, no, I said you know, it's not something. In the back of my mind I've been thinking you're gonna, but you know, if you want to, you can, but you don't have to. She's like exactly.
Speaker 2:She's like, okay, I'll get ready for school then you know exactly and honestly and I've said this and again, I don't know at this point, I don't know what Jude's um abilities will be when he's obviously a grown-up, but genuinely I don't care if he goes to work in a supermarket or he wants to become prime minister. I don't care which one like end of the scale he chooses, but I do believe he can do either. So, yeah, he might be 10 years old now and non-verbal, but if, if he really wanted to be prime minister, I don't think he could like a hundred, like a genuinely do.
Speaker 1:That's how much he might do a better job than some of the ones we've had so far?
Speaker 2:probably, yeah, if he really wanted to be prime minister, I don't think he could Like a genuinely do and he might do a better job than some of the ones we've had so far. Probably, yeah, even now. Even now, I just put him in the office now, but yeah, so they're the main things.
Speaker 1:I would say yeah, I think that's lovely and I really appreciate you taking the time to come on the podcast and I will have links to your book in the show notes, and it's been a pleasure having you on today.
Speaker 2:I've loved it. We could have talked for a lot longer, but we can't. We definitely could have. Yeah, okay, thanks, olivia.
Speaker 1:You're welcome. Thank you for listening. Send Parenting Tribe If you haven't already, please click on the link in the show notes to join us in the private Send Parenting what's Up community. It's been wonderful to be able to communicate with everyone in the community and for us to join together to help each other to navigate challenges and to also celebrate successes. Wishing you and your family a really good week ahead. You.