SEND Parenting Podcast
Welcome to the Send Parenting Podcast. I'm your neurodiverse host, Dr Olivia Kessel, and, more importantly, I am a mother to my wonderfully neurodivergent daughter, Alexandra, who really inspired this podcast.
As a veteran in navigating the world of neurodiversity, I have uncovered a wealth of misinformation, alongside many answers and solutions that were never taught to me in medical school or in any of the parenting handbooks.
Each week on this podcast, I will be bringing the experts to your ears to empower you on your parenting crusade.
SEND Parenting Podcast
Sensory Processing Disorder with Julie Davis of Future Steps
We dive deep into sensory processing difficulties in neurodivergent children with Julie Davis, an occupational therapy expert with over 35 years' experience and founder of Future Steps. This conversation explores how sensory processing shapes development, influences behavior, and impacts daily functioning in ways many parents might not recognize.
• Understanding the difference between sensory processing issues and behavioral problems
• How sensory processing affects everyday activities like getting dressed, eating, and learning
• Red flags parents should watch for that might indicate sensory processing challenges
• Environmental factors that can overwhelm children with sensory sensitivities
• Why repetition and targeting the root causes create lasting improvement
• Practical approaches for parents to support their child's sensory development
• Different types of sensory challenges including tactile, proprioceptive, vestibular, and auditory processing
• The importance of building neural pathways through appropriate sensory input
• Why shame and punishment are counterproductive for sensory processing issues
• Success stories of children overcoming significant sensory challenges
Join the conversation in our private WhatsApp community. You can find the link in the show notes.
www.sendparenting.com
Welcome to the Send Parenting Podcast. I'm your neurodiverse host, dr Olivia Kessel, and, more importantly, I'm mother to my wonderfully neurodivergent daughter, alexandra, who really inspired this podcast. As a veteran in navigating the world of neurodiversity in a UK education system, I've uncovered a wealth of misinformation, alongside many answers and solutions that were never taught to me in medical school or in any of the parenting handbooks. Each week on this podcast, I will be bringing the experts to your ears to empower you on your parenting crusade. If you're looking for a safe space to connect with other parents navigating their neurodiverse journey, our private WhatsApp community offers support, insights and real conversations with like-minded parents who truly understand. Join the conversation today. You can find the link in the show notes.
Speaker 1:In today's episode, we are diving into the world of sensory processing difficulties in neurodivergent children how they shape development, can influence behavior and really impact daily life. To help us unpack this crucial topic, I'm joined by Julie Davis, the founder and director of Future Steps, an occupational therapy clinic dedicated to transforming the lives of children, young people, families and adults. She has over 35 years of experience both in healthcare and in the private sectors. She's played a pivotal role in shaping occupational therapy services throughout her life. She's established a new NHS occupational service for children, founded two private practices and is an active researcher in international studies on sensory processing and attachment.
Speaker 1:Beyond her clinical work, julie is a passionate educator, developing innovative programs that support children in both mainstream and specialist schools. Her expertise and dedication make her the perfect guest to guide us through the complexities of sensory processing challenges and how we, as parents, can better support our children. So let's jump in. So welcome Julie. It is such a pleasure to have you on the Send Parenting podcast today. I really look forward to exploring with you how sensory processing issues can really impact a child's development and their behavior. And you know you are such an expert in this field that I'm really super excited to talk to you.
Speaker 2:Well, it's so kind, Olivia, for you to invite me and take the time to talk on this subject that is so important for so many parents and educators and children, especially in this complex world of sensory processing, what it means on a day-to-day basis for our children in different settings. So thank you for having me.
Speaker 1:And it's so interlinked in terms of my listeners and neurodiversity and you know it's it's it's a common theme throughout many different neurodiverse um diagnoses. So I think it's going to, I think my listeners are all going to be very excited to hear your wisdom today, but tell me a little bit about your journey in occupational therapy and how that's led you to um future steps.
Speaker 2:Okay, so, um, I, so I had an amazing journey. I studied at York University and I went on a secondment and basically a rotation in them days that you could literally go from kind of I did neuro orthopedics, different things, and learn a breadth of kind of knowledge. And then I went back to actually Darlington Memorial where I started, and I had a wonderful manager and she said what would you like to do in an ideal world? And I said, um, pediatrics. And we didn't have a pediatric department at that time. We had a very it's very interesting. I went off to Bishop Auckland Hospital and they we were in a cupboard and I came back, I remember the same day saying no, I don't think I can work in a cupboard.
Speaker 2:So I had a secondment to many different hospitals. I took what I loved and what I thought would be really good as a service and I became a team leader of paediatrics and set up a department and that was my journey in, and at that time we had, I think when I left I had 360 referrals on my team and I'd done a very strategic way of organizing things. But we had huge complex cases that would come in, but one of the groups that I felt was really not recognized was the DCD group, the Developmental Coordination Disorder children, the mainstream children that were operating on a level where they were either seen as naughty, they were excluded and they weren't working as hard there was. There was kind of just a lack of understanding of where they came from. And I can remember one consultant said no, no, julie, you can't see that age room, so we need you in early years. And this sat me there and I said yeah, I really appreciate that, but this is a huge unmet need and I saw that decades ago and I would have huge meetings with education. I thought education should put money forward for occupational therapies, that we were spending our lives in school, because these were where the referrals were coming from and the challenges and and I did that for a long time and I trained in sensory integration and but there was a real lack of space and I remember beautiful head teacher I said I wrote to every school in Darlington and one school came back and said you can have my school for the summer. And I opened the school for the summer and we trekked as many children as we possibly could and there was just a lack of space and it was just. I really appreciate the NHS, what it gives. It's an amazing organisation, but there was just not, there wasn't the space at that time.
Speaker 2:So I set up another organisation and I stayed there for around 13 years. I was a little bit of an unhappy OT, I would say at times, olivia, if I'm really honest and I again, there was a passion in me for these children. So I set up Future Steps and I, because I wanted, I left the organization. I moved on. I felt our need was in schools and to offer schools occupational therapy services, and that was the start of the journey. So schools contract my organization in for three hours, six hours. We have incredible schools, incredible educators and I'm in a really unique area. Stockton is an amazing area for seeing need and I know it won't be everybody's answer, but actually they've really allowed us to bring in new frameworks, new models and things of that nature, but it's allowed me to develop something over the last 11 years. That's just incredible.
Speaker 2:So are you happier now? Oh, I'm so happy and I got to meet amazing people. I got to go and do my mentorship program with Lucy Miller over in Colorado who looked at surgery processing disorder. I sat every day and I could speak to her and it was incredible.
Speaker 2:I've done so many things in the last 11 years. I've done a master's in attachment studies and I've just been able to diverse thoughts and ideas, because these are complex children and when parents entrust their children to you, you need to be the best you possibly can. You're taking care of their loved ones and we don't know everything. Research is continually changing and bringing things and then you do research and then there's not enough body of evidence and things of that nature and things of that nature. But it's been amazing and I'm so grateful to my staff and my you know, my supporters and the schools and people that literally fund and what I'm really proud of. But yes, some people do pay to come and see us, but a lot of it comes through different funds. So it's really lovely giving to those that maybe couldn't have access to this service every day and and I've got an amazing SI clinic and it's just amazing, it's just brilliant, you know, because we give them what they should have.
Speaker 1:You can see it. I know this is audio, but you can see it on your face. You're just beaming with how much you actually this is following your passion and you are the right person, then, for us to unpick this topic today. So can you help me just to understand? You know, if we just take it back to the very basics, like understanding what are sensory processing, you know what is it and why is it crucial for child? You know, for children and their development, you know.
Speaker 2:If we think about sensory processing, it kind of refers to the ability of the child or person because obviously this affects adults as well to perceive sensory information. So if we think about sound and touch and smell and taste and movement and sight and interceptively what you feel and what that reaction is in your body, and then controlling behavioural responses, so if we think about a baby being brought into the world and the parent doesn't know that they've got a tactile sensitivity in terms of the way that they either don't respond to touch or they over-respond to touch or they're either hypo or hyper, so we think about that, the mum might go in to touch that child and the child might cry and immediately she's going to think I'm doing something wrong, I'm not a good mum, I'm not a good caregiver, I'm not able to meet their need. So these children can be really fussy. They can be, you know. They can just generally not sleep.
Speaker 2:Well, you know not feel safe when you put them down in the cot, because if they've got a proprioceptive problem, then they don't know where their world begins and ends because they don't get the same sensory feedback. So suddenly you're having to navigate motherhood, having this beautiful baby and and all of the sleep deprivation, everything that goes with that, all of the professional advice. You've got to do this, you've got to do that, and then you can't just settle them and I will tell if it's all right with your readers, I don't want to activate something, but something happened to me so I um and I hope this is not too personal and I'm really kind of aware I don't know everybody in that audience, so please bear bear with me as I share this.
Speaker 1:We all bear our souls on this. So, honestly, you're in a safe place.
Speaker 2:Yes, I'm going to bear this soul. I had a beautiful baby boy and then I got pregnant again and I had a little boy called Matthew at 20 weeks and he didn't survive because he was amicabellic. So I fell pregnant again and I had my beautiful daughter, who is now 27 and gorgeous. But when she was born she was really tactile, sensitive and that was, I feel, the amount of stress that went on in my early pregnancy. In the early weeks the amount of cortisol that I produced in my body would have been really high and she had real sensitivities and it was really particular. She had sensitivities on her feet and sensitivities to the lining on her pants and things like that. So she looked at times when I took her into the to have her shoes fitted, that she was really misbehaving. But actually she had real sensitivities and it looks like a behavioral response. But but as a baby, you know, if I touched her feet she might have flinched a little bit, and I'm in this craft. But I was a mum. I wasn't thinking, oh, my little baby's got a few tactile issues here. I was thinking, oh gosh, ok, you know working around this.
Speaker 2:But the parents have no understanding. Olivia, you are immediately drawn to the fact that you are doing something wrong, or they're just I mean, we've all heard the phrase or they just do it for attention. Yeah, we know they're all fashion phrases, but we can hear them and I'm sure parents listening to this have had the tuts in the supermarket and the kind of moments and things. And so by having a sensory processing disorder and it doesn't mean that they could have just tactile skin, so the skin sensitivity they could have a balance issue. So they're wobbly, they trip over a lot, they've got a lack of feeling and so they fall a great deal.
Speaker 2:And then you used to get the old sayings of clumsy child syndrome and that they then they think there's something wrong with them, but actually they were born like this and actually, um, and their neural networks are just not giving that all that sensory feedback that they need. And the amazing thing is our proprioceptive system can develop, our vestibular system can develop, our sensitivity can be reduced or it can be heightened, our auditory system can be reorganized. So the understanding of this is vital to both to educators and to parents. So they can they don't always need to come to professionals, but they can know what to do themselves.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's so important. You know, a parent might not even know that they're having those type of issues and instead they're feeling like it might be something wrong with them. And then they're probably, you know, you feel and I know I've done this in my parenting journey too blame some of my daughter's behaviors on my parenting, versus what was underneath it, which was neurodiversity underneath it, which was neurodiversity, and so then you become quiet and you kind of you know, you don't, you don't seek help because you feel that shame and because you know you, you, you're, you're mis, you're misappropriating blame to yourself. So what, what would be some of the signs You've mentioned some of them now that parents can like understand that, okay, this, you know, this is, this is something that is inherent in how my child was born and something that we can work with with an OT, like you've mentioned, the touch for your daughter. But what are some of the other signs that parents could? Maybe the less known signs, I guess.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the little red flags as we call them, and they're constant. So for your parents it wouldn't be that just one day they trip up and then they don't trip up for a week. Okay, they could be not all, but they could be delayed in some of their development of walking, of they may not crawl. Now lots of people will say to me olivia, oh well it, they didn't crawl, but they're absolutely fine. But then it'll affect their handwriting. So they may be, they might get to nursery. They might be a little bit more flitty. They might need lots of running. They might run massively to the point where they can't concentrate. You might find them when they're at the dinner table squirming all the time, really hard to sit. Still, they might hang upside down when they're watching the TV. They might not be able to concentrate for long periods of time.
Speaker 2:They will be some of the children that avoid. So they avoid certain areas and then they don't get the experience because the test demand is too hard. So you take them to swimming and they're absolutely so fearful because of going in water, of going in water. That's an adverse reaction, the first reaction. They might go and you might understand the water's cold. You have to comfort them. This, this is like a bigger reaction where they just don't settle down and you might find, as parents, that you're having to. You set them off on a club and they only go for a couple of weeks and they seem to like it and then suddenly they don't want to go anymore and borrowed and then you change another activity and you go to another activity and schools tend, when they're going to nursery, they may avoid the puzzle corner or the cutting corner or they draw, but and and it's really this they're very subtle, they're clever children. You know this is not to do with cognition, this is to do with my body doesn't feel great. I don't get the same sensory feedback. I don't know how to organize this. This is affecting the way that I can get on my bike and feel safe, or go on a trike and feel safe, or do this activity.
Speaker 2:And and parents will soon see that actually, when they, if it's their first child, it's very hard to see, but as soon as they take them to play groups and start taking them around and I experience this I go to play groups with my granddaughter and I can almost see the children straight away that are okay, right, you're going to really have a hard time in school because I can see how much you flip already that. So their attention concentration span is much more reduced and they can appear if you think about neurodiversity and we think about ASD, what it's a bit like chicken and egg. These children don't like close proximity, it's too overwhelming for them. So socially straight away they they remove themselves and then that social engagement piece is really hard. So they can be isolated. They can be boisterous, really all boisterous. They can be seeking, running or really kind of almost. They don't appear to notice when you're asking them to get up or doing something. I hope that's a good enough list for people to think okay.
Speaker 1:One thing that also I wonder and I hear this a lot in my daughter's school kids having like they have to get a very specific type of sock, or they have to get a very specific tights, or they can't wear tights, or how do you get things with a lot of clothing issues. Is that a huge indicator as well?
Speaker 2:Yeah, tactile sensitivity, so very much they like their socks at their ankles. They don't like them halfway up their legs. They, from an intraceptive point of view, they don't feel the cold. So they go out in winter and they're in t-shirts or a jacket and they just don't appear to kind of even notice. Kind of um, that, that's, that's. That's a problem.
Speaker 2:Um, cuffs, tags, you know, school can give them a new p kid and they absolutely have a huge meltdown because the smell of it, the touch of it, all of these things are big indicators, um mark making, being really reluctant or being having a real problem with grip, strength and control and dexterity of fastening things, of doing things, because it all links into more development and coordination as well, because it's our underlying, if we think about a pyramid of development. These systems all need to be in place, um, so we can attend and we can perceive and we can make sense of our world and we can explore it both visually and from a sensory point of view, a kinesthetic point of view. So you'll just see little things that just, and parents are intuitive, they are just, they just know. You know they may go to professionals or they may go to teachers and say there's just something not right here that these parents know.
Speaker 1:And then I would imagine if it does go unnoticed or undiagnosed and the child progresses in school, does it then align with worse behavior, worse, and then the child gets it. The picture becomes more confusing then, doesn't it?
Speaker 2:because absolutely I we. Years ago we had the opportunity because we were at the moment I'm next to a secondary education school, but when I first started off in my organization I was next to a primary and we we had an alliance where we authored what was called the steps program, and the steps program was for children that were on near exclusion or had had lots of issues behaviorally. We had 14 children referred to us and they came for 16 weeks and in them 16 weeks individually they came. So they had a very, you know, specialized program. They'd be educated in this new school for these 16 weeks a different approach. The school was very much about social, emotional, mental health challenges. So the curriculum died down a little bit. It was more tailored to them and they came every single day for sensory integration intervention. Parents would come with them and we would literally then get them back into their mainstream school and we got every one of them children back into either a setting that was more appropriate, that allowed them to be educated, or back to the mainstream.
Speaker 2:And there's one boy that stands out really massively for me and he came one day and we'd kind of still had this kind of vet, but not with a school and we brought him and he came in and he literally tried to kick my doors down. He was screaming in corridors. His parents were sat in my waiting area crying and I just said we've got all the time in the world, we'll just wait. And we just waited and waited and eventually we got him in. We got him in a session. He felt comfortable. We got him assessed and we started doing intense work with him. That boy was out of school. He was labelled as a troublemaker. He was excluded. He was a beautiful young man and eventually we got him into more specialist provision. He got his GCSEs. I still see pictures on Facebook now of him driving in his apprenticeship and doing wonderful things. But if you just said that was sensory processing, people might not believe you. But actually it was.
Speaker 1:So there was no other underlying cause. It was just that, was it? That's phenomenal, and I love the way you say he was excluded. He was a troublemaker, he was a lovely boy. You know, and that's the thing, most of these, most of these, I'd say all of the children that are excluded and put in, you know, behavioral, they're lovely children and all of us know that. And it's, you know, it's finding a way to understand what's causing that behavior and what's causing, you know, and unfortunately, the knock on effect of that is school behavior policies and exclusions, not getting underneath the bonnet of the car and finding out what's actually going wrong. That's a really lovely story, um, it's.
Speaker 2:And because it's yeah, sorry, and not to talk about it. I feel that as well, teachers are under a real amount of pressure. Now we have amazing schools that want our services, but we've just been told recently in a local area um, they're they're pulling the funding. So basically, these schools are getting less specialists coming in and to be able to assess and provide parents with education and things and and they're pulling anything to get funding to try and get us in to to their provisions. But actually, um, in in outside provisions, um, not, not in my local area, because they're very, we're very unique in this area and, as I say, the contracts that we have, you know, really look at this. But yeah, there's huge demand on teachers, there's less funding and there's more pressure and they're crying out for things. But actually if the services are not for long enough, then it's like a sticking plaster.
Speaker 2:And then we hear so much our strategies well, we'll teach you to tie your shoelaces. Well, fundamentally, why don't we just teach them bilateral integration skills, the ability to use both sides of your body together? And if we did that, if we walked from the bottom up, and people say, oh, there's not enough evidence. We know there's evidence. I do this every single day.
Speaker 2:Sensory integration obviously is a big body and want more and more research around this, but isn't it fundamentally that we kind of a strategy is better than actually going back to normal development, where you would actually crawl and use your body together in a certain way, because if you do that, they'll be able to ride the bike, fasten the shoelaces, you know, be able to write, be able to use a knife and fork, be able to integrate information hemispherically across you know the regions of the brain, you know it's, it's fundamental, but actually it's so important that that is understood, because what we don't want to do for our children and you hit on it really early on, olivia is cause shame, I think shame is a terrible thing again, not the behavior the behaviors up here and then after that you kind of have the things that you want to do, like you know hold a pencil, or you know eat properly, or you know be able to get dressed in the morning, but those are still.
Speaker 1:You need to get underneath that even further. So what are what's missing in terms of their development, that they need to work on? Can you, can you go into? Can you explain that a bit more?
Speaker 2:So if we think about a child that has planning difficulties, so if they've got planning difficulties, they're going to have a series of developmental issues in their balance system, with their skin, with their muscle memory, maybe with their hearing, with their their sight and things like that, not in the fact that near glasses, just you know, literally it is too overwhelming. The environment. Well, planning to our motor world is like speech to our social world. So, basically, if you can't plan, then you basically can see somebody do something, but actually you, you can see that information, it goes into your brain but you cannot get the signals down into your body right to perform the same action. Well, let's think about that. You, we've all got up today, we have made maybe a drink. Well, we've had to plan that, we've had to literally know, but we do it so instantly that we don't think about it anymore.
Speaker 2:But for a child that going into an education environment right, okay, I'm getting changed for PE that's really difficult. I've got to take all my clothes off, I've got to put a new set on that is really really challenging. I might get it inside out, I might get it back to front, I might look disorganized and it and it takes so much of that child's brain capacity to think about dressing or organising or using a pen or formulating a letter that actually all the instructions that are coming into that child's brain are just missed, because the child is giving too much of their temporal order over to kind of just structure and sequencing and what to do. So these are our children that might remember the beginning of an instruction but they might not remember the middle of it or they might just hear the end of it, so it can affect them that way. I've said about bilateral sequencing disorder that would affect a child fastening buttons, as I said, using cutlery, using scissors and being able to separate both sides of the body together, hold a pen but then stabilise the paper.
Speaker 2:If we have modulation difficulties because obviously if we look at the spectrum and we look at this, modulation is the ability to literally regulate our emotions we can get children that can't do that so they almost look like our adhd population, but when cams have looked at them or the diagnostic services, the door fit the criteria. Well then, that's our modulation and they find it really hard. So they need lots and lots of heavy, heavy work to register into our. Their muscle memory are okay, and this, this makes my body organized, this makes me feel better, this makes me feel that I can actually feel my body and be able to respond. And then, if you've got intercepted problems, so our digestive, our heart regulation, our breath control, well, actually, how do I feel? I don't even know how I feel. I get so many children.
Speaker 2:We see on average 60 to 65 children a week in our clinical law, nevermind school, and there are hundreds of children in schools that we see with my occupational therapist. If we think about all of them children, they come in. A lot of them will say I don't know what that feels like, and they're really genuine. They come in and lots of them will say I don't know what that feels like, and they're really genuine. So what happens is we label, we tell them oh, does that feel fuzzy or do you feel angry? And they might think, oh, yeah, I do feel angry, but actually, as you work with them, no, I had a little girl once that said, she literally looked to her caregivers all the time and I would say what makes you feel strong, strong, and the only thing she could come up with Olivia was a banana, a banana's big.
Speaker 2:She told this yeah, bananas make me strong.
Speaker 2:That was it. So let's pick something in this clinic that might give you the same feeling as strong. She went on our zip line probably about 10-15 times and the only place she felt strong was a big talk. But she identified it and from there she built and built and built and built and she was like a flower because basically she stopped asking her caregivers for how she was feeling because she knew internally. And now and I think the great job of an occupational therapist is to empower parents and educators or caregivers, whoever's in that child's life, to understand this so they can continue understanding it and be able to apply things in everyday life, so they're not dependent on services like ourselves. And that's what Future Steps does stand for. It's a non-dependency framework. I do have children and adults that come for a long time. I appreciate that, but at least they can have breaks and they can adopt some of these things and then they might develop the children a little bit more and then they might need to come back, but then some we never see again.
Speaker 1:It's a teaching to fish kind of philosophy I know like with my daughter who had cerebral palsy when she was young we weren't able to actually have OT or physical therapy in Swaziland because it just wasn't available.
Speaker 1:So I would go to South Africa and we'd do a block of neurophysio OT and then we would go back to Swaziland and do it for a couple months and then we'd come back again, do it for a couple months and then we come back again. And actually you know what I thought of as a hardship because it wasn't right on my doorstep and I couldn't go for my one hour session a week was actually super beneficial because we learned and then we applied it at home over and over and over again. And that's really where the magic happens, both in physio and in OT is first of all getting the right program, which it sounds like you know you're you're doing. You're not just telling a kid come on, keep cutting this stuff until you get it, keep cutting it. You're stripping it back to like what's going wrong with their reflexes, what's going wrong, you know, with their networking, and then you're making an individualized plan for them and then you're you're teaching it to the parents, who then do it at home? Yeah, and we have a big emphasis of parents.
Speaker 2:Now we know parents are tired and some days they just want to sit in the waiting area. We've got TV so they can watch what the children are doing all the time. But we really want them to come in Olivia, because they learn and they are, they are, they're the golden nuggets, not us, we're just. We're people that have got a skill that can impart skill, impart knowledge, that they are the golden. I call them the golden key, if you like kind of development, because they're going to do it every day, they're going to adapt and it's not fancy equipment you can go to a park but it's knowing how to break something down. So it's a success rather than a behavioral response.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and making it too hard. And I also think you know I got some good advice. I don't know if you'll agree with this or not, but so my my neurophysio. She's like Olivia, cause I had I was lucky as living in Africa, so I had a nanny and she's like Olivia you be the mommy and you get cozy to do some of these with you, and I actually I took that philosophy with me even when I moved to England, because sometimes you just need to be the mom or the dad.
Speaker 1:So if you have a babysitter or you have an auntie or you have someone that can come and do this, the important thing is getting it done, because sometimes I found I'm a very type A personality and my desire for her to do the thing really well destroyed the process. So for me it was better to find someone else and then me to find fun ways could we can do things like biking or things that you know that reinforce that. But I had to. I had to find someone to help me with the actual doing of it, and I think that's OK.
Speaker 2:I think that's lovely, olivia. I think it's such a beautiful thing to say, because parents have so much on and some it's some people's craft and it's not other people's craft, and also you want to be the parent and I think you know play is the work of children and it's bringing that back in that theme, back in to think, you know, just by taking them to part. But actually having someone like a grandparent, like you say, an auntie, somebody to do that is just. It allows just some breathing space and you again to be that person for them. I think that's a gorgeous thing.
Speaker 1:And even in school now, cause I continue with this, with this philosophy. So I've now with her with her exercise. I video them right when we go to our sessions and then I send them to the school and they actually do them. And now they've actually done something wonderful. They do it with all the kids, okay, in the morning, because it's all good stuff to do, right, and the other kids are like, why are we doing it? But A, she doesn't feel like she's abnormal, and then all kids and it takes five minutes. Right, there might not be five minutes in my morning to do that, but you know, so it's. It's finding how you can incorporate it and how you can find the, the support networks to help you with it, because it really is a game of repetition, not to simplify it, but I mean that it really is. You have to keep doing it.
Speaker 2:Olivia, so right if we think maybe we can learn and adapt. It's every I don't know your audience might relate to this you go running, you just you wouldn't go running once and do a mile and then think you could do a marathon because that just wouldn't work. And it's the same about going to exercise classes, aerobics or anything. I remember the days of step aerobics many, many moons ago. And so it's coming back in and you would have to go a few times to learn the techniques. Well, that's us. And if our neural network is working efficiently and effectively and there's no sense of difficulties, it can still take a while to learn a skill. Now, with our children, if we take I don't know 32 times to learn something, they'll need 96. You know you're quadrupling it because you are having to rewire the information going from A to B or A to Z or wherever it's going. So the repetition of everything is essential to get that overlay.
Speaker 2:And I can always remember Mary Carr came over from the States to teach the astro training for children with oculomotor difficulties. She's an amazing lady. And she came over and she said Julia, do you have a bike? And I said, oh, yeah, I have a bike. Yeah, so she's in a local hotel and things like that. And she said I could never ride a bike and because I'm dyspraxic, and I was like, oh okay, but I learned to ride a bike in my 60s and like, this lady was like, and every day she would ride and things. So the great thing about that story is we are continually to develop all the time and so we can learn these skills as well.
Speaker 1:It's amazing because, like when my daughter was little, they said oh you know, you've got to work on her now while she's still neuroplastic. You know, as she gets older it's going to go away. And it's been such a pleasure to learn that actually that neurologist was wrong and that science has moved on and that your brain still has neuroplasticity. I mean, my daughter learned she's a left hemiplegic or diagnosed as that. You wouldn't know it by looking at her. But for her to ride a bike I had to have a stationary bike. I strapped her left foot to the thing and it took us three months for her right foot to teach her left foot how to keep it on the pedal and to cycle. And now she can cycle. If she gets tired you can see the left foot going off. But it's amazing the brain is just to me so amazing how we can re-fire and wire these neural networks. And that really ties into occupational therapy and physical therapy, actually, absolutely.
Speaker 2:The craft is. You know, I think, some parents, if you came to my clinic, you probably think, oh, we just have a fab time. And we do have a fab time because all we do is play, but we play with an underlying understanding of those neural pathways and the neural networks and why it's important. And you graded the activity just like we would. So it's really, um, lovely Olivia, that I would have done exactly the same as an OT. I would have placed that foot and got that network going and that sensory information back. And that bilateral skill we talk about bilateral skills being so important for everyday life and and that's exactly what you did, um, and you did it over and over again.
Speaker 2:And I think what is sad is sometimes when we go into schools and they're so under pressure the teachers, um, and then they just say we just don't have time, julie, or we just don't, we can't do this, um. And then you know, we do try and get to parents, but I, I love the fact that I'm very much into videoing and people will come in and say, can I video something? And I say, absolutely, can we take pictures, can we do this? And yes, we do put programs for parents, but I never give parents more than three to four activities because it's unrealistic and we have to come from. What is your life like? Are we just putting more pressure on you know? So some of my children will come in twice a week and we'll take the pressure away while that's initially starting. So parents can get knowledge and in school, I devised a program called the smart program, and the reason I called it smart is it's essentially more to a regulation treatment approach for children that you can teach educators in and they apply it and bring children out into groups. But what I was really conscious of is I thought wouldn't it be lovely if the teachers are John, you're going off to the smart group today? Would you like to go? Because what does that just say? Well, I'm smart. It doesn't say there's anything wrong. It doesn't say that there's, I need to practice anything. It gives such self-esteem.
Speaker 2:And we've ran these across our region and um, we, we went into school. We give a scholarship free every year to a school, except this last year. We've sponsored an ot in training and um, in one school, we, we were able to access 170 children through doing interventions that the educators could take on board and they could apply and they could take this and then apply it to PE. So it's a very set program. It runs 36 weeks a year and basically what it does you educate the educator to then put it in, and so they're not dependent on us us, they're not dependent on anybody like that. They can add it into the curriculum. They could use it as a PE session, because it's all motor based development and skill and um, and the improvement in them children was phenomenal.
Speaker 2:Um, and we do earth handwriting, exactly like you're saying. We. We educate again educators. They take it on if we digitalized it, so it just plays and all this class can do it, our groups can do it, and I think this integration is so important for children to think I'm not alone, this is not just me, yeah, and we're all different, we're all unique, my, I'm, I'm skilled, I just need to practice this little bit rather than feeling I'm not good enough. Children are so astute. They know when they're not in the right room, on the right table or group for reading. They know when they're not doing their spellings well, and to be four and five years of age and feel like you're not the same as somebody just demotivates children. And it can, unless without a really good network around them, it it can do that to them I know.
Speaker 1:And then the stupid like oh, you get your pen license or you're stuck with a pencil, and I mean we do. We do so many things to shame children in school. It's, it's, it's, uh, it's uh, yeah.
Speaker 2:And the pen. Oh my god, hard Olivia. I shouldn't. It's a pen license. I just I am at a loss about this. We have children. If your child has got a visual discrimination or form constancy challenge in their perception and standing, they are not going to be able to cursive write. So to write cursively is a really hard skill. They'll go over their oars a little bit more their ears and they'll still form it incorrectly. And we go through lengths of doing all of this and they get to secondary school and they can write however they like. Well, why did we take them through that journey? What was all of that about? Who was that for?
Speaker 1:And I'm sure I still have PTSD of the books my mother made me do in holidays trying to do cursive and never got it.
Speaker 2:And it's and I speak to, I train lots of educators on this area and they are all with me. They don't. They don't say anything other than we totally agree, julie, but they just want to help these children. We totally agree, julie, but they just want to help these children. But again, this comes from foundation. This program doesn't make a child sit there and write out loads of things. It goes back to shoulder development, integration of hand movements, stabilization, you know, dexterity. They build the foundations and the writing becomes easy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it just comes naturally. Then Another thing that we haven't touched upon in any of our examples are kind of the auditory side of things as well.
Speaker 2:It's really interesting. I was doing a family formulation with my psychologist this morning. The little girl and I did a little story and I literally knocked on the table to identify a little story and immediately she was like this she's putting her fingers in her ears. And then she said I can hear the heater behind me and I've had staff and I have a lot of staff that will say can we have ear defenders? Julie um and I, I say and I've got two managers in my, in my organization, just in different departments, and they sit with ear defenders, and I say what, what's that like? And they said we realize now at school we were really bright children but actually we just couldn't concentrate for long because the amount of noise and these children do need to be put at the front of the class. And e-defenders are fine when they're little but they're very embarrassing when they get to secondary or even in in their last year of school. So finding other means and I know they're not embarrassing when they get to secondary or even in their last year of school. So finding other means and I know they're not going to change this, olivia, but some people really concentrate better with music. I let all my staff have music on if they're doing their reports and various things of that nature. They all have different needs, so we work around their different needs In school the noise level. And I'll give an example to you, to readers Long time ago I went into a school and it was all open plan.
Speaker 2:And it was the days where it was all open plan and so I sat, I situated myself at the back of one classroom, thinking, oh great, okay, I'm here, I'm going to observe what's going on for this child and listen to this. And what I realized as I was doing this observation oh, my goodness, I'm not listening to you. I'm listening to the teacher behind me in the next classroom, because there's a gap above the wall and actually I hadn't listened to that teacher because that radiated over the wall and down into the back of the classroom. So if you were a child there, you're listening to the teacher at the front, but actually all the noise was coming from the back and landing and I said it's impossible. This is, this is now. I know that school has now always it's closed off all their open plan.
Speaker 2:Um, auditory processing is is so hard it is. It's almost like a constant noise of information coming in to the point where you lose all sense of understanding of what's being asked of you. You can't follow instructions and um pod, just as devised um, it's called ILS and he's done one for trauma, because when we know we are traumatized or activated or anxious, we close down our artery system. It's a natural defense of our central nervous system and but also comes with that therapeutic listening program. Listening program, and the least with things of that nature for parents is it's it's it's altering the ability of the auditory pathways to alter their, their, their network, if you like, to let hear lower decibels and reduce higher decibels that are coming in. So for the, for the listeners, I would. I really appreciate it. Defenders might all what they've got access to, but to research a little bit more about auditory processing.
Speaker 2:I don't see many children that don't have auditory processing challenges or visual perceptual challenges or just, yeah, lots of that is there and I think seated at the front of the class is so important for these children.
Speaker 2:So if we even you can see me, but even if the listeners put your hands in front of your ears and then listen to your voice and then put your hands behind your ears and listen to the difference in the, the sound waves that are coming in to the, to the pinner um, they really do need to be at the front. It's a bit the same with visualization. I ask the teachers if you've got any children that have got hypersensitivity to visual input. Don't sit there looking out of a window. Put them at the front of the class and put all of your displays at the very back wall so the children are not attracted to them and see them, because if they're hypersensitive they're just going to see all of that and it's going to distract them. And the same with auditory um, you know it's, it's adaptation and there's a lot. All the studies I've kind of read recently on asd and sensory processing. They've done a lot into environmental factors and the environmental factors play a huge contributing part for why our children don't achieve in school.
Speaker 1:I mean school is like a sensory overload, even if you don't have any sensory issues. I mean sound sight smells too much of everything. So you know it's not a surprise to me. I mean same in workplaces. I have to say as well Like for me, open plan workplaces. I'm not going to get any work done there. There's no point. You know, I can be there to have meetings and whatever and then go home and do my work at home.
Speaker 2:And it's the same with the olfactory system and the smell system and the gustary, the taste. So I was in a special school and they had a flood. So what happened is they had a flood in the dining room so they took all the children um and they put them back into their own classrooms. Their eating increased, their actually dietary intake increased because they weren't in the dining hall smelling many different odors that were offensive to them wow, that that's so interesting.
Speaker 1:It's so fascinating, like all of this stuff. And you know you as a researcher and I know we've been chatting for some time now, but what is kind of some of the emerging kind of research that you could share with us?
Speaker 2:What's really interesting. We're doing a research study with Newcastle University and Australia and they've flagged the Ch, gladly chosen us, which is really lovely of them to come to my centre and do this and they're going to do ECGs and what they're currently looking at is from. We're going to look from it does. If a child sees a task, let's say, stacking cups I'll just use this as an example and they see it. And they're going to watch ipads and we're going to measure their brain activity at the same time as they're doing it, and that's that let me just clarify.
Speaker 1:So that's what an ecg is.
Speaker 2:So yes, so they're looking at brain waves in terms of that and what's going on and um. So we're going to measure a controlled group and well, one group that's just going to look at it and practice it through an iPad, a visual system, and then another group is going to do the same but actually then physically practice it. So what we see and that's kind of that'll be really exciting. It's over 18 months and it's in two different regions of the world 18 months and it's in two different regions of the world and that'll be very interesting because if the data comes out of that that actually our children learn through, just through visualization, you can imagine then that or if they don't, if it always will need visualization ie looking at something, seeing it and then practicing it it gives much more clarity. Because what does that help with? Well, then you can send ipads and information away with parents and the child just watches that for umpteen minutes a week, but then when they come back to therapy they practice all of those skills, so it might teach. The way that then we direct them so we have a teacher in front of them is with lots of information behind, but actually that's not going to enter the brain in the same way because it's two different lots of information. So how do we make lessons more interesting? How do we make it more practical based what do they need to see in science more than what they're doing, or English in what they're doing, or maths? So I think it would be a very interesting study.
Speaker 2:Most of the studies that I have kind of looked at from a sensory processing point of view is that we're just much more aware. The interceptive side of it came along far more aware of that and what that means at eight cents there's some of them are inconclusive. We need more evidence. The school based stuff we know works. There's been a study, you know, following a boy and how they they actually they did visual, they did stories on social stories and how much that helped him in terms of his interpretation and kind of doing alongside other children is fundamentally very important and not in isolation, and so that really improved the skill base and basically having that kind of buddy system or that mentorship kind of you know seeing somebody else but playing out things, I think for children with these challenges is very important.
Speaker 2:Children it with these challenges. It is very important. Um, and we know from our center because we see children repeatedly and see the difference we make um consistency you know of language, consistency of delivery of you know, understanding, and I think the fundamental thing is where is this challenge in terms of you know what are you dealing with? Because a bilateral skill is different from a planning problem and a modulation difficulty is completely different from the other two. So you've got to understand that sensory processing makeup of the child. But you know, there's definitely, we know, with neurodiversity.
Speaker 1:most children with autism and adhd are going to have a sensory processing diagnosis but even more interesting is some parents that maybe have thought their child has adhd or or a different neurodiversity. It might not be. It might just be a sensory processing. Or if it not just be, because it it's, it's. It's it's causing, you know, it's again neurodiversity, sensory processing. It's the you know, it's again neurodiversity, sensory processing. It's the way we neurally network and how we perceive things, so they're not a million miles apart from each other in any way, shape or form. But it's getting down. What you're saying is to the root of what the actual cause is, and then you can really unpick how to create a solution. And then it's repetition fire it, fire it, then it starts to wire it and then everything else kind of just falls into place. So then you're able to use the scissors if that was your, you know, the other things come into place and the behaviors also then calm down as well.
Speaker 2:So yeah, it's a and understanding what is sensory and what is behavior, because I get a huge, you can imagine, especially in trauma. Lots of people say so what is a trauma and what is this? And even in our field we've got to unpick the family, family so we bring all the family information together, interviews, everything like that. Look at what the trauma is and is it strategy that the child is needing to use to get attention and things or when they're scared and fearful, or is there an underlying unmet need? But I get so many children now that are diagnosed with autism and actually then the trauma's been let, just let go, as though that's not important anymore. And that's so fundamentally important because if we know the strategy of the child, we can help the parents so much to understand why they elicit those behaviors at any one time.
Speaker 2:So why do children inhibit and feel that they can't share their feelings and they get anxious and they get nervous? To, the polar opposite is I'm gonna fight, I'm gonna, I'm gonna argue, I'm gonna create havoc in this, in this world. You know, I'm in um and I get lots and lots and I suppose that's that's our job on a weekly basis really, um in the service, because we get those children. We're looking at all of their development, all of their sensory processing difficulties, all of their skills in handwriting, perception, but we're also looking at their trauma history. And is there a correlation between behavior and early developmental trauma? Or is there other factors going on, such as we've missed the SPD diagnosis, or the autism or the ADHD?
Speaker 1:Because trauma can mimic neurodiversity in the way that children um present. So you can, you can get misdiagnosis and in terms of dealing with the trauma, then is the pathway then going to be different. Um, and yeah, uh, so you need to really get down to that root cause.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because if, if they've um, if they're no longer with their parents, they're with um, they're adopted, they're fostered, they're no longer with their parents, they're adopted, they're fostered, they're in a different situation with caregivers then the strategy parents need to understand. So we would do video, intensive guidance, we would do somatoexperience, either neuroaffective, we do a different type of therapy time for children. Laying that with sensory, sensory integration and interception is beautiful because it it marries their body and their mind together to gain a sense of understanding and education is my. Why does my brain do what it does and when it does it? Because of this, this and this. Why do I feel like this?
Speaker 2:Um, you know, and you can take them out into a beautiful other world and create a world that they, where they feel safe and where they feel good in and and. But you're, you're doing it in a different way and you're allowing parents to really see. This is the sensory issues. This is the strategy they're bringing in because they want to be close to you or they need more comfort, but actually it doesn't look like that, but that's really what they're asking for, but they're doing it in a behavioral manner, um, and and. So it's a very different level and and a different way of looking at the children and really understanding them.
Speaker 2:And and what is what? So we don't get it. So we don't have the children in for umpteen weeks of si, when actually sensory integration is not what they need. It's a different form of therapy or a different specialism or whatever it is. So we can't waste resources and we don't need them. You know, we don't need parents undergoing all of that stress and things with um when they don't need to be. They need to be in the right place, or a different place.
Speaker 1:Yeah, uh, and it, it, it goes back to. There's no point in putting a sticky plaster on it. You really need to get down to what's, what's, what's actually causing it. You know what, what, the what it, what it, what is needed for that particular child. It's very personalized Um, there's big groups but then understanding that that child's needs and then finding the right program for them, which is amazing, and I think you know you've opened my eyes and ears and brain as well to this, because you know it's super interesting, having myself been years in occupational therapy, sometimes with the NHS, where you know we're just so focused on handwriting to the point where it's like, well, I'm sorry, she's never going to be able to use a pen or write, which is actually not true, but you know.
Speaker 1:So I like the whole methodology that you use in your clinic in terms of getting to the root cause and I think a lot of parents can resonate with that and then how you can go about changing it. And I will include your details in our show notes as well, because it sounds like people can find funding for this within their schools as well. Yeah, and.
Speaker 2:I love your story. I'll just end with this beautiful story about a five-year-old little girl that came to me in the NHS and her parents were told she won't write. Um, I still know this girl. She, um, she has her own child now and I still know the parents and her parents and I said, well, I don't know where whoever's told you that, but I don't have a crystal ball to say that, so let's just just work.
Speaker 2:And she was dyspraxic and she had motor planning challenges, perceptual challenge, everything. She came to me and she came through my other service, um, and she went on to be um, a secondary English teacher, and um, and she came through my other service and she went on to be a secondary English teacher, and, and she's still there now. And so let's we never know what our beautiful children are able to achieve. We should never they should never ever be labeled that they're not going to be able to do something or have or achieve something. We just never know their potential. It's unbelievable then. We just never know their potential. It's unbelievable, and I've seen it day in, day out in schools and in my service and it's what keeps me going every single day just to create change and help parents.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's getting that early intervention and getting the support that you need to be able to do it. And it's like you said, it's not rocket science. You're shown how to do it and you can do it, you know. So it's it's. It's it's that knowledge is so much power. Um, I always ask all my podcast guests at the end of the show what three top tips would you give my listeners to take away with them?
Speaker 2:Believe in your instincts. If you think something is not quite right, then pursue it. Um, don't say, don't take no for kinds of. Basically, if you want to get access to professionals, then push and gain as much. If you're giving anything, you need to see change. So if you go along to any professional, they give you any program and you do not see change within a short period of time, it is not the right program or intervention for you.
Speaker 1:Oh God, I wish someone had given me that tip when I was going through it with my daughter. You know what I mean. I was like why is she doing this, like we're not getting any closer to anything. So, oh gosh, that's a really good one, because sometimes you just stick with it and you, you know you just for too long. So that's, that's interesting. You should see change quickly if it's actually working Well. Thank you so much. It has been a pleasure to have you on the show today. I've really enjoyed it and thank you for sharing all your knowledge.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much, olivia. It's really it's an honor to for you to have me on and for your listeners to listen to me, but thank you so much for the opportunity to just share about occupational therapy, sensory processing and and just if it touches one parent and they get more advice from this, then it's all worth it, isn't it?
Speaker 1:at the end of the day, Well, it'll be much more than one parent.
Speaker 2:So but thank you, it's been lovely, lovely to meet you.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening. Send Parenting Tribe If you haven't already, please click on the link in the show notes to join us in the private Send Parenting what's Up community. It's been wonderful to be able to communicate with everyone in the community and for us to join together to help each other to navigate. Thank you.