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SEND Parenting Podcast
Welcome to the Send Parenting Podcast. I'm your neurodiverse host, Dr Olivia Kessel, and, more importantly, I am a mother to my wonderfully neurodivergent daughter, Alexandra, who really inspired this podcast.
As a veteran in navigating the world of neurodiversity, I have uncovered a wealth of misinformation, alongside many answers and solutions that were never taught to me in medical school or in any of the parenting handbooks.
Each week on this podcast, I will be bringing the experts to your ears to empower you on your parenting crusade.
SEND Parenting Podcast
Navigating neurodiversity as a father with Ross Jones of Skoolio
Ross Jones shares his profound journey of discovering his ADHD at age 36 and how this diagnosis transformed his understanding of himself, his relationships, and his approach to parenting his neurodivergent children.
• Learning to recognize the difference between tasks you don't like versus tasks that are genuinely challenging for your neurodivergent brain
• Navigating the complex emotions that come with receiving an adult ADHD diagnosis
• Understanding how ADHD affects relationships and finding better ways to communicate needs
• Creating systems to manage household conflicts around different needs for order and organization
• Supporting neurodivergent children by validating their experiences while helping them develop self-compassion
• How Ross's personal journey inspired him to create Schoolio, an AI-powered educational platform designed specifically for neurodivergent learners
• Using technology to cultivate curiosity and eliminate judgment from the learning process
• The importance of helping children recognize that challenges don't define their worth
• Developing self-awareness as a parent to avoid triggering emotional dysregulation in your children
• Finding your authentic self after years of masking and people-pleasing
If you're looking for a safe space to connect with other parents navigating their neurodiverse journey, our private WhatsApp community offers support, insights and real conversations with like-minded parents who truly understand. Join the conversation today. You can find the link in the show notes.
The link to Skoolio.xyz - the sign up for the beta test is right in the header of the site
www.sendparenting.com
Welcome to the Send Parenting Podcast. I'm your neurodiverse host, dr Olivia Kessel, and, more importantly, I'm mother to my wonderfully neurodivergent daughter, alexandra, who really inspired this podcast. As a veteran in navigating the world of neurodiversity in a UK education system, I've uncovered a wealth of misinformation, alongside many answers and solutions that were never taught to me in medical school or in any of the parenting handbooks. Each week on this podcast, I will be bringing the experts to your ears to empower you on your parenting crusade. If you're looking for a safe space to connect with other parents navigating their neurodiverse journey, our private WhatsApp community offers support, insights and real conversations with like-minded parents who truly understand. Join the conversation today. You can find the link in the show notes.
Speaker 1:In this episode, we will be diving into a powerful and deeply personal conversation with Ross Jones, a father educator and proud member of the neurodiverse community. Ross shares his journey to diagnosis, how it reshaped his relationships and the unique lens it brought him to parenting. As one of only two dads to appear on the Send Parenting podcast, ross offers a rare and honest perspective that's both moving and inspiring. We'll also explore how his passion for making learning exciting for his daughter led him to create Schoolio, a revolutionary approach to education designed to meet children where they are using AI.
Speaker 1:Whether you're a parent, educator or someone navigating your own neurodiversity, this episode is filled with insights, hope and a real talk you won't want to miss. So welcome, ross. It is such a pleasure to have you on the Send Parenting Podcast. It's actually quite amazing to have a dad join us because, honestly, in over a hundred Send Parenting Podcasts we've only had one other dad join us. So you know you are a rarity and it is great to have you today to talk about your journey to discovering your neurodiversity later in life and how that's had an impact on your relationships, on how you parent and how it's also sparked kind of your passion to how can you make education interesting and fun. So we have a lot to talk about today.
Speaker 2:I don't doubt that let's start with you.
Speaker 1:Know how you, how you, what your journey was to discovering you were neurodiverse at 38.
Speaker 2:Uh, yeah, I don't know when it was. I think it was actually maybe when I was 36, something like that, but I've oh, I'm sorry, I'm aging you, thanks, uh.
Speaker 2:No, it was actually one of those things where I was. It was through work and this isn't the normal route by any means of it coming about, but it was purely. I worked in a fairly high level office job and some of the stuff that I was doing I was really not struggling with, not because I couldn't do it, but because I well, I suppose I couldn't do it in certain ways and I was. I think I said before it's like one of the things that it felt like is like trying to swim through treacle. You know, certain things I'm like I can do this instantly faster than anyone else. And then other things it was just like an immovable object and more and more of that stuff was getting pushed on me.
Speaker 2:It was out of scope of my job and I was like well, how do I manage this with my boss? And my boss was very much one of those people. That was just like you just got to get on with stuff you don't like and in fact, quote unquote was we all have to do things we don't like and I thought it's it's not that I don't like it. Well, granted, I didn't like it, but it was like I'm not best placed for this. But how do you say that without them saying, well, we don't kind of need you, then see you later. So I thought the best way to do this is to try and talk to someone at work about it.
Speaker 1:So I was fortunate that they actually which is really clever, Ross, because you know what I mean. There is a very big difference between doing something you don't like and doing something that you actually feel, really, really. It's challenging, and not only no matter how much effort you put into it, the results don't even come out of it, you know. So it's, it's, and.
Speaker 2:I understand, I can hear your pain because you know I similarly have a. You know, there are certain things that are so challenging to do that other people might think they can do really quickly and it's just impossible thing. It's not like, and it's hard to try and say to people without them thinking what do you mean? You can't do it, and I'm like it's not that I lack the intelligence or ability, it's it's like how can I put this into words? And it's very difficult for people that just don't understand it.
Speaker 2:And I think that was the thing that I was struggling to articulate to have my boss understand. I thought I'm gonna have to try and protect myself in some way, and it was never about being neurodiverse at all, I didn't even question that at that time. But they had a counselling service and I thought, well, I'm going to go and speak to the counselling service because at least then I've got everything on record. I was just essentially just trying to tick boxes to protect myself and say I'm raising this with someone because HR is useless and I didn't really know what to do there and it was the count and the counseling service was, as we started speaking, more and more the counseling service like are you, are you sure if you ever been tested for ADHD? And I was like, no, why? So maybe that's something that you should explore. And that was kind of the start of the journey, really.
Speaker 1:And had you like. Did you have a preconceived idea of what ADHD was Like? Did you? What? Did you have a preconceived idea of what adhd was like? Did you? What did you do like after that conversation? Did you go?
Speaker 2:google it. Uh, well, of course then. Well, of course, yeah, that's a rabbit hole and everything. Why wouldn't I?
Speaker 2:Um, but it, it kind of went a bit too far in a sense, because obviously my entire feed, or every feed that I had in every app then became that um and it and it's all a bit consuming and I was like, okay, down this hole with that and um, so I kind of thought I do relate to a lot of these things.
Speaker 2:And then it makes you think, oh, actually I've kind of always related to a lot of these things, and so it was like connecting the dots, you just like, as you go down this path of connecting the dots in that way and um again, fortunately, where I was working, he could refer me to somewhere in Basel, in Switzerland, and I don't have the same weights as a lot of people have so in the UK and stuff like that, so I could go and see someone and go through the process. And it didn't take me years to do so. It took me maybe six months to do the whole thing and I thought, well, I'll do it, because at least then again I'll be kind of ticking a box. And for me it was a funny one because I wasn't really sure what to expect. I was doing it because I thought I did.
Speaker 1:And tell us because I think some of my listeners won't know what's involved in getting yourself an ADHD diagnosis later in life.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I got referred to somewhere and I had to go and have about three different appointments and they just talked to me and it's a fairly mundane process, it's not very exciting. They go through a number of different set questions. They had to speak to my mom as well, so my mom was in a different country to where I'm based, so had to get her on the phone for one of the one of the sessions and speak to her about what was he like as a child. And you know, did you recognize these sorts of things, dude? I'm like 36, you're like.
Speaker 2:She's like that was years ago, uh, I don't know, like, so it's harder, but it's like, uh, trying to. They're obviously trying to see how, uh, how you behaved and what things you struggle with in life. And again, that's quite difficult because it's trying to. I think we try and protect ourselves as well, because it's like I'm not, I'm okay, like, and you have to kind of be real with yourself as well. This is exactly how it feels, or these are the sorts of things that I struggle with, or even the emotional stuff as well, cause I think that's quite a big part of it. Um, the emotional dysregulation and stuff like that is, it could be all over the place.
Speaker 2:Uh, so going through that was, I think, yeah, about three, the three sessions of about an hour and something each, so it wasn't, it wasn't huge, um. But then I remember going in and maybe for the last last one, which may have been a follow-up on the fourth, and I was in the car on the way there and I called my mum and I was like, uh, I kind of feel slightly conflicted. I don't really know what I'm expecting if they, firstly, I'm like, what do I do with a yes? And then I was like, what if they say no? Like and I know it was only that moment, I actually thought about it then what I was just like.
Speaker 2:I didn't even consider getting a result and what that might actually mean. So it was a really strange moment. And then they said, yeah, well, this is, this is you. And I thought, oh, okay, I don't really know what to do with this.
Speaker 1:How did that?
Speaker 2:feel, I don't know it was anticlimactical, I suppose in a sense I didn't really know, like I said, that kind of build up on that journey. It was the first time that I'd actually considered how I might feel after, and I suppose I was a yes was better than a no in one sense, because the no was like, well, I don't really know what to do with that either, and the yes was kind of like, because the no was like well, I don't really know what to do with that either, and the yes was kind of like okay, then, what next? And I think I sat with that what next? For a while because I just thought, well, that's, I've got that now, but that doesn't really change anything, it doesn't change me, and the same with a no wouldn't have changed me either, but was like, okay, okay, maybe I can understand this now.
Speaker 2:Um, but it was kind of then that I I started to not or pull away from more of the um, the stereotypes of ADHD and the all the content that I was seeing, because for me I found that more it was like a self-fulfilling prophecy, like it fed back into the things that I couldn't do and I didn't, I didn't, I didn't resonate with me. It felt more like, okay, well, yeah, but that isn't me Like that. That doesn't define me, and I think I was going through a lot of stuff at the at the time as well. This was post separation with my, my ex-wife, so this all led, it was all at once. I had the like everything just uh, all at once.
Speaker 2:It was separation, um, it was the ADHD diagnosis all over a couple of year period. It was all together, and so I had a lot of kind of soul searching in that time and I've, yeah, I found that I didn't resonate with a lot of the content that was there, so I was like, oh yeah, that's me, but I found it more keeping me where I was versus empowering me to be better, and so, yeah, handicapping you almost yeah and I just thought that that wasn't where I wanted to be.
Speaker 2:I know myself and I, like I said, going through a lot of this process, I started to learn a lot more about myself, I think through separation and this, I think, comes into the whole relationship side of things as well um, it was, uh, I was at a place where, post separation, I I didn't know who I was. I remember going to see a therapist and therapist was like just be yourself. I was like I don't know who that is, I don't know, and you know, when you relive it back, it's like I don't think I've known who I was for a long time. And I think every neurodiverse person can kind of relate to this. It's the whole you're everything to everyone and nothing for yourself, because you're trying to be who everyone else wants you to be and you never actually take the time to understand what you need yourself. And that was kind of where I was.
Speaker 2:So all of this was together. So it was a lot. There was a lot of emotions and a lot of stuff, but a really good time for reflection to try and understand who that person was and is and discovering that, going through that whole discovery. So I think it was a perfect, perfect storm in a sense, because it was a lot, but at the same time it forced me to have that reflection. So that's probably why I didn't resonate a lot with the, the ADHD content I was seeing, because I was discovering myself and I wasn't defined by those things and so that made me pull away from from that sort of stuff.
Speaker 1:I think you know it. It really resonates with me as well, because it's it's you're still who you are. You know what I mean. I know you were discovering who you are, but you're still who you are, regardless of a diagnosis. It might clarify and make you understand why it was so challenging at work to do certain things and and clarify that Cause otherwise you're or why you get emotionally dysregulated. You know you're like wondering. You know why isn't meditation working? Why can that person stay calm? And I can't stay calm? You know it can clarify those things, but it doesn't change who you are, it doesn't, you know. It can just maybe give you some insights into what you need to move forward. And it sounds like a lot of self-discovery as well on your part. Yeah, in a period of a lot of change, if you've just separated from your wife, and it sounds like also there's some challenges at work as well. So it was a perfect storm, yeah, so how has it gone?
Speaker 2:Honestly, I think I'm in the best place that I've ever been in my life. I'm currently on garden leave from my corporate job. You could think if you looked at it on paper, you'd think the last few years have been not very good for you, have they? But for me, they feel great, I feel the best in myself and it's funny, speaking to my mum, I saw her a while ago and she said to me me, you are the most like you were when you were a kid, which for me, like is it's quite emotional because you go through this whole time in your life of trying to do what you you think you need to do for society, for other people, and it's really difficult to to shed all of that, to peel back those layers and and find your, your inner child again and be okay with that, as crazy as that might be, uh, and I'm I'm happy to be that crazy person, I will embrace everything right now, uh. So it's gone really well, but it's been.
Speaker 2:It's been a, you know, long process. It's been a long process of constant reflection and trying to understand. Obviously my ADHD brain wants to try and pick these things apart and dig into why and understand them anyway. So I'm kind of wired for these things, but fortunately it's been in a more positive way than the and a more compassionate way, an empathetic way than a um, a self-deprecating, uh, in a overthinking way, and that's that's one of the key parts of that.
Speaker 2:It was like you said before. It's like I've always been that person, always been me, and it's trying to have compassion with yourself and trying to understand that I am a good person. None of these things change that, and it's acceptance as well. So accepting who you are, no matter all these different things, and that, whatever happens, it doesn't make you a bad person. So I think there was a long process involved in it, but coming out the other end, it's been amazing and it's helped me massively understand more about myself and my kids as well, because they're equally as well wired, in the same way as me.
Speaker 2:So you know, and I think that's one of the key parts of, I think, being better for them, like I don't think I could be better for them if I wasn't better for myself first. You know, it's that whole analogy of putting your um. You have to put your like oxygen mask on first. Yeah, cause if you can't, if you can't be the best version of you for you. You can't be the best person for them that they might need, so that that, for me, was one of the biggest lessons and and and finding finding yourself.
Speaker 1:I know that sounds kind of cheesy and very american, but, um, you know it, it you've. It sounds to me like you've found a calmness and an acceptance in yourself and you are now creating a future that accepts you for who you are, instead of maybe trying to I don't know do things that maybe you thought you should have to do. Yeah, totally.
Speaker 2:I'm anti-society and I'm just doing my own sort of thing. And I understand equally that a lot of people won't get it, because how can I and I think that's one of the things that I've been able to understand too is that people will. I spent years feeling misunderstood and that really triggered me. Why can't you understand me? It's like well, of course they can't understand me, like it's taken me this long for me to understand me and no one is wired like me. So I work on such a different level, a different space than anyone else, that I know that it would be impossible for people to understand me. So instead of me trying to force people to understand me or being annoyed but they don't, I just embrace that. So it's like people just go, I just don't get that, and I'm like well, of course you wouldn't Like time to me, but now I understand that it's probably they understood more about me than I did.
Speaker 1:One pretended that there was a volume control on my chest that he would keep trying to turn down and another one would say to me Olivia, your brain is 500 steps ahead. You need to bring the rest of us mortals with you because we're back here and you're far, far, far away. And I was like what do you mean? You're back there? Well, why are you back there? What are you doing back there? Come on, it's like isn't everyone up here? Like, come on.
Speaker 2:I had the exact same feedback less the volume control, mine's just more. I'm like Tourette's in most of my meetings, which are people love in a corporate environment, but it's more like being those 10 steps ahead, and that I find as well is. I think this is why I love doing things independently and building my own things, because I can do that at my own pace, which is normally extremely fast, and then I'll stop for a bit and chill, and then extremely fast, and then I'll stop for a bit and chill. But if you average out, I'm still way faster than a lot of corporations and that frustration that comes with that in a corporation like why aren't you moving faster? Like why is this so slow? It shouldn't be this slow. And I think that's one of the challenges of being in a corporate environment.
Speaker 2:As a person with ADHD, it's understanding that you will be able to do things that other people can't. You will struggle with things that other people can't. You will struggle with things that other people can. So you're like anti a lot of things. You're like you go, you go up when they go down, they go up when you go down and it's like wait, this is, this is really difficult to match and I, you know there are companies that can support that and I think that that see exactly how adhd minds work and they can utilize them effectively.
Speaker 2:There is so much value in there, but there are, I think, as companies get bigger, you have these huge, huge corporate giants where it's very difficult for them to be able to effectively manage that, because they look at, you know, your job is this one little slot in there and it has to go there and it can't go outside of that, because they've got like 10 people in this area and they can't all be different because they have to fit into this, and so I think anything like this at scale it becomes very difficult because you don't have the people that one understand it could support it and the structure that is in place doesn't scale. You know it's very difficult to be able to scale these things. So I think there is for me, I haven't seen it at a large organization, for example.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I used to work for an organization that provided access to work, so people that can help facilitate what the needs are. But I do agree to you there is a disconnect. If your mind works the way that you've just described, it doesn't really fit well in the corporate box. It doesn't fit that well in the school box either.
Speaker 1:So there are things out there that can help you. But there's also a freedom in realizing that, hey, you know what? I want? To be an entrepreneur. I want to be an entrepreneur, I want to do my own thing, and there's tons of entrepreneurs who've done really well with lots of neurodiversities. And it's finding that confidence that you have to chart your own path and do things that might not be quote unquote. You know, I'm a doctor who's podcasting. That's not exactly what I was supposed to be doing as a doctor.
Speaker 2:I'm trying to explain that to people and they're just like why?
Speaker 1:You wouldn't get it. Honestly, it's beating to your own drum, which is incredibly liberating, and it's you know, if it's in the right environment, and you touched upon that. This has helped you with your parenting and your children, and you also talked about your relationship too.
Speaker 2:So there's a lot to unpick there.
Speaker 1:There is because you know, what's really interesting, ross, is that we tend to pick other neurodiverse people, um, and have neurodiverse children and and actually the genetics. You know the numbers. There's lots of different studies, but it's 80 to 90 percent of us, you know, and it gets bigger when we we pick a partner too. But then you know some, some magic can happen, some fireworks can happen.
Speaker 2:So, yes, you know yeah, it's, um, it's one of those that again, um, my ex-wife we're still great friends, she lives just down the road, um, see her every, pretty much every other day. We co-parent week on, week off, and uh, obviously, the more I went through my diagnosis, the whole process and everything she kind of was thinking, and when in fact it was me at first, I kept being like, uh, do you not think? Um, maybe she's like no, and and I think again, she was had a number of other things um to go through. So he has like eds and things like this, and she just didn't want another label in her head. So she's like, nah, so she was refuted. Nope, no, not at all. And then, I think, because I'd sent her some stuff at the time, she's kind of like oh damn it. Now I do, I relate to this quite hard and that was quite a few years ago now. So now she's just like, oh my God, yeah, this is me and she hasn't gone through the diagnosis, but there is no doubt in anyone's mind at all.
Speaker 2:So, uh, so that became that was. That was a difficult relationship because, again, like you said, sparks fly and we both, I think, as you get older and you've had adhd your whole life. You bring us the a certain um baggage with you that comes with that um and that, equally, is a challenge. So there was a lot of conflict with us not or misunderstanding each other and unable to communicate effectively with each other, which we are able to do now so we can communicate way better. We equally know that we'd all be awful in the same relationship and house as each other. We've just, we just like look, it's like I love you and everything, but it's no, we couldn't, couldn't do that.
Speaker 1:We're in a good place now.
Speaker 2:This is fine. But yeah, I think this was the downfall of our relationship. It was we completely missed each other. And it's not about completely understanding each other, but it's about being able to communicate effectively our needs, where we were and where they came from. And I think that was the most difficult part of the relationship which we learned afterwards.
Speaker 2:So now, instead of reacting to things, so we can have conversations and I don't fear a reaction she will have a conversation with me and not fear the reaction because we don't react emotionally through those things. It's not about something being personal or something like that. She says I felt like that at that time. I completely understand that I can get where that came from and you know, we can have those conversations which we just couldn't do while we're in a relationship. And obviously then you've got outside of the whole emotional crazy side of things that we experienced.
Speaker 2:The fireworks, it's the little things. When you have and this is something that I now have I'm able to more communicate with my kids. It's like mess, I'm perfectly fine with my my mess. This looks tidy from here backwards, but that way it doesn't like that's my mess, I live in it, it's fine. And when you've got a husband and wife combo and she'd be like move those shoes, because I know, and I know now that that just messes with her. Seeing my shoes there will mess with her. And at the same time, if I see her nail polish on the side, I'm like that's been there for three weeks. Why haven't you moved that? She's like well, I'll move it when I want to move it, wait, hang on.
Speaker 2:So you have, and you I know now and this is obviously pre-diagnosis so at the time we're just like that's really hypocritical and really that's annoys me so well, that annoys me and it is hypocritical, but that's just the way it works. And I say this to my kids now it's like my uh, my son's room would be a state and he's just like I just really don't see the value in tidying it and I'm like I get it, I totally get it. But what you have to understand is that you might not see the value in it, but when I see that that just messes with me, there's something in my head. I'm like that's your mess and that's messing with me.
Speaker 2:So if we can find some compromise to be able to like work slightly together, I'll be a little. I'll try and be a little more easy on it and not irrational with my outbursts. If I see your messy room, but equally, if you can try and understand that it's probably going to mess with me if it's left like this the entire week and he's like okay, that makes that okay, that's fair. I didn't think about it like that.
Speaker 1:So I think, like understanding these things post separation and understanding myself more, has I've been able to carry that through to have conversations with my kids in a better way yeah, it's, it's all about communication and understanding each other and then taking that, that, that pressure off the emotional volatility and if you take, you know, yeah, and then you can really hear each other. Um, and so your kids, um, how old are they?
Speaker 2:Uh, I have a 20 year old who doesn't live with us, a 17 year old who does and a 10 year old daughter. So two boys and a girl.
Speaker 1:And how have you seen? Like now that you have the lens of your diagnosis and looking at them, do you see neuro spicy traits in them? Have have.
Speaker 2:They had challenges.
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally, totally has it changed how you parent?
Speaker 2:huge challenges and I think it's the whole thing of um. My 17 year old is probably in the best place he's been as well and I think the whole separation and diagnosis period for me I I tried to be as open and vulnerable as possible with them, without being too far. So it's trying to explain to them the process I was going through and the things that I was working through to understand and how that was beneficial to me, and I think that this over time has allowed especially the 17 year old to feel like he can also share his experiences. I think you know as as a, you do the best you can do with what you have and that is whatever you have at that time and you only learn that through your experiences and what you had as parents and what was just normal. So you can't change what you have at the time, but that can change as you experience more.
Speaker 2:So I think previously, when the kids were younger, and I think the challenge that my 17 year old hasold has now, and probably my 20-year-old if we spoke to him about it, would be that they see us parenting the 10-year-old differently now than they have when they were 10. And we've had conversations about this and they didn't get that same level of experience. However, they get to experience us now, at 17, that they wouldn't have done if that wasn't the case. So if we are fairly open with these sorts of conversations and I'd say I can completely understand how that might feel, you know, slightly unjust for you. It's like, well, we I wish I had you then then but they equally understand the value of what they did have, because that's may help make them who they are today as well. And equally, we couldn't have changed that. Like we, we were less tolerant. You know, it was just you should do these things. I'm not gonna necessarily, um, hear you as much as I hear you now, and I think that's one of the biggest things. It's making sure that they feel seen and heard.
Speaker 2:Because, as a neuro diverse person, I think your lack of self-worth is one of the the biggest things that we struggle with. If we're told we're wrong all the time and if you then don't feel seen and heard, that they are like three things that you carry through later in life. It's like lack of self-worth not feeling seen and not feeling heard which manifests itself in your life as a number of different things, like I felt like I needed to prove myself to everyone all the time because, you know, I didn't feel seen or I didn't feel heard, um, and also feeling loved and safe as well, being able to do those things. So, trying to nurture those sorts of things, um, they're things that I try and do a lot more now.
Speaker 2:Uh, just last night I was having a conversation with my 10-year-old. She was in one of her stuck-in-her-head moments, like just overthinking, stuck in her head and not being very kind to herself, because they don't have school on Wednesdays in France and this is where I live and it's great for working people, but luckily I don't have a real job.
Speaker 1:So every Wednesday there's no school? Yeah, every. What about? And do you have school on saturday?
Speaker 2:they used to back in the day, but they stopped that because obviously that's really annoying. Um, they used to do it on saturday mornings, but they don't do that anymore. But they do. They have fairly long days. They start at eight in the morning and finish at four. So there's that. Yeah, it's a funny one.
Speaker 2:So she was home yesterday. She was supposed to be tidying her room and packing for this weekend and obviously that didn't happen in the way that she predicted it would, and I totally get that. She spent a lot of time in her room, but that didn't happen, and uh, and so I came to see her for bedtime and she was really upset. I said why are you upset? And she said I just procrastinated all day and I didn't get my room done. I've only just finished packing and there's a mug over there that I brought up to my room with tea in it and now it's gone moldy. And I always do this, I always do this, and why can't I just do this?
Speaker 2:And I, you know, I felt that pain because it's that whole beating yourself down and previously, not understanding this, I would, you know I might have brushed off and said don't be so silly, like whatever, or it's fine, it's fine. Um, or I might have even said oh my god, harper, why didn't you bring that mug down, like there's now mold in it? And I said I don't care. I was like it's a mug, like whatever. I said none of these things change who you are as a person. None of these things define who you are as a person. None of these things define who you are. I said does this make you less of a good person? She said no. I said these things don't really matter at all. I understand they might be frustrating for you and I said and as you get older, you will find, and we can help you find ways to. You know, as I do game myself through cleaning or whatever it might be, I'll give myself a reward after every two things I've done.
Speaker 1:I like that game myself, game myself through cleaning. That's pretty much what I do.
Speaker 2:I find little ways to, yeah, to gamify the whole system to make it a bit more engaging and feel like I can get through it in a better way. And you know, there are systems that I put in place to do things that I don't want to do because, ultimately, regardless of what I would say is, like you know, following my intrusive thoughts and just letting the ADHD flow Sometimes you just need to clean or answer an email or pay a bill. As much as I would love to ignore all of those things, it's fine, like you have to find systems and ways to do it. So I just said to her you know, none of these things truly matter, it's fine. And I wanted her to just know that she was understood, that she was seen, heard and she was safe at that moment and just give her a hug and say it's fine, you know, not to add to that, to make her feel that she is a bad person or all of these things, because ultimately we are either our biggest asset or our worst enemy.
Speaker 2:In our brains, like the ADHD brain, is this incredibly powerful system computer, whatever you want to call it that. It's data in, data out, so if you put bad data in, it will go crazy on that bad data and that comes out in a bad way. But if you put good stuff in, it will do amazing things. And the problem is, if we're told bad stuff all the time, the things that it sees every day, is bad stuff, so we we just that becomes worse. And I think that that's what I want to try and help my kids understand is that you are your biggest asset. You just have to try and block out all of the stuff from outside and not let that stuff penetrate, because it it can and it will if you enable it to allow it to.
Speaker 2:And, um, yeah, so I think being able to to understand my kids better, um, different ages, different challenges, you know different stages of life. The 17 year old wants to go off and travel, but equally, he's just been offered an apprenticeship to do some work after he finishes school, which is only in in June, and then he's like, yeah, but I don't want to miss this opportunity. And if I miss this opportunity, so he's getting stuck in his own mind about that, I'm like I should do this or maybe I should do that. So it's, it's difficult to, at each stage in life, try and keep up with their uh, their challenges or the way that they think uh, and try and be the best person I can be for them, without any judgment or without any uh emotional response back to me.
Speaker 1:I mean, hats off to you. You're doing sounds like you're doing really well, really well uh, and also I just have to say in, in, in all seriousness, your 10 year old pack for herself. I mean, yeah, that would never happen in my life. Do you know what I mean? And if it would, what would be packed, would you know, not be worth taking on the trip like?
Speaker 2:yeah, she's fairly anal with this sort of thing like that when she's. But again, this, this goes up and down. Sometimes we'll end up with rubbish and um, my ex-wife might be like why did you let her bring this? I just, I just go with it, just is what it is at this point. As long as she has key things, it's fine. So she can be super organized. Like some days she wants to lay out her whole uniform before, like the night before before school, and other days the you have to drag her out of bed and she looks like a cave woman. So you just never know what you're going to get. You have to just be prepared for all of it.
Speaker 2:It's a joy of being a parent, isn't it Brilliant, yeah.
Speaker 1:I love it. And talking about kids, you're also really passionate about education and you used actually the example with your daughter the last time. We spoke about how she came home from school and she asked you, dad, can I play some more on Schoolio? And you said it's not a game. Tell us a little bit about that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I think I've been passionate about education for a while and education for me is so much more than in the four walls of a classroom. But we see education and we hear that word and we're like, oh, it's school. And I think that the challenge is that I didn't necessarily have the greatest experience of school. I've got a ton of teachers in my family as well. My sister's a teacher. She lives in Bangkok, she's a teacher. My grandmother was a head teacher. Like there's a line of teachers in my school and my family.
Speaker 2:Formal education for me is something that I don't have the best experience with, through my kids' experience and, equally, through my own experience. And so previously I had a startup that I did in edtech. It was engagement analytics. So I created it and then I vowed never to get into edTech again because it was the most painful experience I've ever had Uh, trying to change the, the system, I suppose, trying to, trying to penetrate into that system to to make change. So I vowed never to do it again because it cost me a lot of money. But here I am and I uh that's yeah, I'm a glutton for punishment, but it was. It was more a case of, you know I've had. My daughter came home equally, and the. I'm not the biggest fan of the french calling system either, because a lot of it is repetition, repetition, and it's very traditional copying things down and learning dates, it's like.
Speaker 2:It's like they took all the things that neurodiverse people hate and went. We should make make an entire school system out of this we're gonna judge you based on remembering dates and oh, and let's not forget spelling too.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh because words sound the same in french but they're spelt differently.
Speaker 2:Yeah, let's, let's, yeah, it's all the things that a neurodiverse person will thrive in that situation, and then be told that they're terrible at it. And then it equally creates this whole negative feedback loop. So firstly it's like, yeah, trying to make sure she doesn't feel those things. But equally it's like how can I support you in this situation? And I'm not a teacher, I'm probably more patient than most in these situations, but I know my limitations. But what I can do is I'm a degenerate product builder who likes to build products. So that's why I thought I'm going to do this. So I thought I'm going to build you a product that helps you learn in a way that I can't. You know, I can't go past these certain levels.
Speaker 2:And with the you know, the advent of ai and that being a lot more prevalent at the moment, I thought how can I do something? And so we've played with chat gbt before and the the best, best example of this post playing with summer schoolio is that my daughter went on to chat gbt. She said can I, can I use it? And she was sat across from me and she wants to do some stuff on homework and she didn't understand something and she didn't type the question in and ask for the answer. She prompted ChatGBT. That was the proud parent moment here. She prompted ChatGBT and said I want you to be my French tutor. Can you help me learn X, y and Z? I think most kids would have asked for the answer in that thing and just cheated. But she was like I want you to teach me and I said why did you do that? And she was like I want to learn, I don't want to just know the answer.
Speaker 1:I want to learn. I think it's so brilliant. You know, and I you know it. It amazes me because we don't think the kids will respond that way. My friend, my daughter and her friends, they hate one teacher at school. I said, and I've asked them independently why do you? The answer is because he gives us the answer. He doesn't explain to us. It doesn't explain to us about it, but how brilliant and ChatGPT responds so well to those kind of inquiries. So where did she go from there?
Speaker 2:So we were doing these sorts of things, and this is where I was trying to support I was trying to build something anyway because she likes to ask lots of questions and the teacher often says to her you should know this. Well, she likes to ask lots of questions and the teacher often says to her you should know this. Well, that's not really helpful, because I clearly don't, and I clearly had why am I asking the question?
Speaker 2:I clearly zoned out at that point and I'm asking because I don't know the answer. If I did, then I wouldn't be asking this question. And equally, you know, with neurodiverse people, even if they do, they kind of need a little prompt and I understand, in a teacher classroom situation, when you've got 30 kids, that might be frustrating if you've got someone that constantly asks questions. So the beauty of having the AI and what I built with Schoolio is that you can have 100% patience. So it's AI response and you can have different setups. So the first thing I did was build kind of like an AI assessment. So it was based off her syllabus because I thought, well, I need to make sure it's the French schooling curriculum because otherwise it's useless. So it's like what do you need for the French schooling curriculum, french, national, whatever it is, and then how can I make it so it goes through all the different subjects? You need to learn and have that dialogue. So the first part was being able to assess where she was within the school system. But obviously I got really carried away with it and this was only supposed to be to help her. I had no intention of building this for anyone else. But then I got really carried away and I thought well, I don't really like grading systems. I prefer a mastery system which understands where you are within the whole learning process, rather than you know an a to f or whatever. So I thought well, I'm going to build it based on a mastery system, but with an underlying grading system so you know what like level you're at from a schooling point of view and the system will continue to push you as well. So it's not necessarily that it would just see how much you know so like for a maths one, for example, we did a maths necessarily that it will just see how much you know so like for a maths one, for example, we did a maths assessment and it will go through and see where you are and it keeps trying to get harder within that curriculum until you don't know it. But it has ultimate patience as well, so you can ask it questions back.
Speaker 2:And at first she was really hesitant. She was like I don't, you can speak to it or you can type to it. And she said I don't know what to ask and I said well, do you understand it or do you want to ask a question? So I'd like to ask a question. Well, ask a question. And so she asked the question and it gave a response. She's like, oh, that's really good. So every then she started asking more questions and then she's like, oh, that's really interesting.
Speaker 2:So by the end of it she was doing stuff that was that she'd never done in school and she's like I've never done this in school before. And I said, okay, but do you understand it? She was like yeah, I really enjoy it. And so then we, we started, I started building out some more assessments. So she did one in French and she did a few more. So she's gone through most of the stuff now to do all the assessments and I'm trying to build to keep up with what she wants to use.
Speaker 2:Because, yeah, like you said, she came home, was like can I, can I do more? It's really fun. I was was like yeah, I need to just do it faster. And it's brilliant because it has ultimate patience, it cultivates her curiosity, so she wants to learn more. And the most brilliant thing is she came home the other day and she had some homework and she looked at it and she went oh, I know this already because I did it on school the other day and it was like antonyms and synonyms. And she was like antonyms and synonyms and she's like I know this. I literally had it explained to me the other day. I was like, sweet, done so, it's it, it's, it works brilliantly. Like I was that for me her having her excited about learning, wanting to learn and just being able to see that it did push her without making her feel bad about it, which got things wrong.
Speaker 2:There's no judgment. There's no. You should know this or you should be at a better level. It just explains it in another way. Would you like me to explain this in another way? You can put your hand up and it will say okay, and it will stop and say can I help, do you need a question? Things like this. So it doesn't have any of the judgment involved that people inherently do.
Speaker 2:And that's the hard thing and you know, this is the thing I'd say to a lot of teachers is I understand that it's very difficult because you have to have a ton of kids and the kids are hard and neurodiverse kids require specific needs and that is difficult to cater for everything.
Speaker 2:But you I don't think a lot of the teachers realize what this feeds into. So if you tell someone that they can't ask a question or these sorts of things, it does feed that lack of self-worth and not being seen and not being heard, and that's that's the a lot of what people, a lot of kids, come out of school with these things hanging over them and I think that that that, for me, was like how can I build these things into a system? And it doesn't. You don't have to be neurodiverse to get something from this system. I just think that anyone who struggles in school or or even just wants to supplement their school experience and wants to enable their kids to enjoy education again and push them further, like my goal is to be able to. Well, equally, I equally. I also built this because I thought I want to sell everything and build a van and drive around the world and I can't do that without teaching my kids. But that's another, that's another level of my that's your ulterior motive underneath everything.
Speaker 1:Yeah, of course, yeah.
Speaker 2:It can't just be, can't be just one line.
Speaker 2:Your penultimate goal, eventually, which you know give yourself a a year or two, you might get there 100% will but it was like I am confident that when this is fully, fully finished, and so I'm trying to build up to a beta level at the moment, so I have opened it so people can sign up to test it as beta. But I haven't. So I've got a beta list, basically, and I'm frantically trying to get it stable enough so I can enable people to do it and so that my daughter can equally tell me what's wrong with it. She's the best tester in the world. She comes in and says I want this to be like this and I'm like, okay, cool, let's do that. And I want to enable different ways of learning.
Speaker 2:So I've currently got 24 different content types. So and I haven't finished all of them I'm up to about four of them so far, so it could be like a lesson. So you have like a back and forth. Like I said, you can raise your hand and have like a more traditional style one-on-one tutoring session, things like flashcards, activities, quizzes, but I want to enable it so you can have huge amounts, so you can play a game it might be a maths game where you have to jump onto the platform that has the right number on a web. Just simple things that are more engaging, that truly test you along the way, and I also added things that weren't curriculum based as well, so that weren't traditional lessons.
Speaker 1:So if because, because, honestly, let's be honest the curriculum, yeah. So I was like in both and I've got like yeah, I've got all the different curriculums.
Speaker 2:I've got american, australian, I've got the international baccalaure. I've got American, australian, I've got the International Baccalaureate, I've got the French for, obviously, myself, the UK, and I've got some of the core ones that were already stored in there. I've got, uh, creative expression, um, a ton of different things that will, and I've gone through them and they're they're super interesting. It really prompts people. It's like, oh, express yourself in this way or do that, and I'm like that's really cool. So I. It enables you to have the same level of structure around a topic that you would have in a traditional, like mastery style learning system, but it just enables them to just get more from it. And I think things like critical thinking and problem solving and stuff like that is what life is every day and I don't think that a lot of traditional education systems cater to that. So to be able to build things like subjects around this in a more engaging way will enable you to support your kids. You know, the whole point of school is to supposed supposedly have them ready for life afterwards. But it's yeah, and I think it's very much. At the moment it's just like we're going to check some boxes and it's more gauged on if we put them into a university system and get them to do follow-on education, rather than judging whether the readiness for for life and that was where I wanted this to support that make it truly so they are more ready for life, and also so they're not brought down by a system. So they still have a curiosity well, still all of their curiosity, uh, their creativity and all these different things as well, and I want to also make it so. It's not just about online learning, so it isn't just about one on one. I put something in there as well. So, from the parents dashboard, you can have um prompts to understand what they've been learning and they're they're called conversation starters, so you can be a part of their learning as well. So, if they're doing that one-on-one independent learning, you can, you know what they've been doing, but it's, uh, it helps you be a part of their learning as well. So, if they're doing that one-on-one independent learning, you know what they've been doing, but it helps you be a part of that. So not to challenge them or anything like that. So, just so you can become a part of their learning experience as well.
Speaker 2:And also, I want them to be able to do things offline as well. So if they have, you know, like a creative, it may be art, it may be science, whatever how can we enable those sorts of things offline as well? So I love technology. I equally. I'm a hugely creative person and I know my kids can be as well. So I think all kids should have that ability to be able to do things creatively, creative, creative. I can't speak. You know what I mean. Instead of just an online experience because I don't speak. You know what I mean. Instead of just an online experience because I don't. I think, equally, that can be detrimental.
Speaker 2:So it has to be a balance of the two, and also to see them grow like to see my daughter be pushed to a point where I'm like I would be confident to say and this is why I want to be able to test that she could be two grades ahead of where she is with, you know, an hour an evening. So if she spent an hour an evening on this, I'm confident that I could get her way ahead of school, just because she'd want to do it, like she reluctantly goes to. She went to school today and was like, do I have to go to school? I was like, yes, unfortunately you do. I don't make those decisions and that level of commitment to wanting to do it is, uh, is a huge part of it. So that motivation, so that's my goal, to be able to be a have that level of support for parents and kids.
Speaker 1:It's a small goal it's so huge because there's some it's I, you know, I think it. Well, you've got your n of one and she seems to be doing remarkably well, so that's, you know, that's hugely, uh, exciting. And then you know, you have have so many of my listeners on my SEM Parenting community like they have kids that can't go to school because of trauma, because of you know, all sorts of different reasons, and to have that available to them as well and for people who want to homeschool or whatever it just it opens up the world for parents and it also provides validation, it sounds like, and also confidence building, which is often stripped really away from a lot of kids. Um, I mean, I myself and actually also in my community too. We were just waxing poetical yesterday about chat GPT. I talked to chap, it's better than a friend, it's better than a boyfriend. I mean I'm like, so this happened yesterday and it gives me such positive validation back. It's very sad actually, but I'm not the only one. You know what I mean. So harnessing that with learning to me just seems like a no brainer.
Speaker 1:And, who knows, we all say that education isn't working the way it is. Maybe this is the way of the future. You know, I wouldn't be surprised, because we suck the imagination, creativity and desire to to learn out of our children year after year and we cookie cutter them through this system where we then test them where a third of them fail. Oh, and they're told repetitively that those you know you're going to be a loser, you're not going to succeed if you don't pass. But we've designed the test so a third of you will fail. But we don't tell you that little bit, do we? No? And you know. And doors are closed. If you don't pass your math and English GCSE, you can't even become a hairdresser. Do you really need your math and English GCSE to be a hairdresser or any other theater? A lot of doors are closed, especially in the UK. I don't know how it is in France, but it's an archaic system.
Speaker 1:Yeah it's crazy. So getting technology, getting kids excited, it's right up my alley and I think my listeners' alleys too. But we have been talking for quite some time, ross. It's been super fascinating.
Speaker 2:That doesn't surprise me in the slightest.
Speaker 1:You'll have to keep us posted. You'll have to keep us posted. And then when you do have something out there, and if you want some neurodiverse parents, I'm sure I could wrestle you up a few to test your software if you ever need.
Speaker 2:So keep us in mind for that? Yeah, definitely. Like I said, I've opened up the beta list so you can sign up on the website. Now to the beta list. I've already got quite a few interested people, but I'm trying to get as many as possible because, equally, the more the merrier Don't expect fully published. But I'll release it, I think, with four current content types that I have, as soon as I can get to that point, hopefully by the end of March.
Speaker 1:Is there an age group?
Speaker 2:you're looking for, I think the more the merrier. It will be interesting to go from early down to four to 16 is kind of where I'm aiming for, but that will be a good test. So I'm I'm open to all uh to understand where where I can support better, and I think that's the thing for me. I want to get as much feedback as I can to understand which parts I need to make better to support the kids at different levels, because you know that's obviously the key part, so they. I know that the system is designed to to do that, but I equally want to make sure that, whether it's content type or whether it's the way that they interact with it, suits the child at that age. So yeah, I'm completely open.
Speaker 1:Brilliant. So I will include that in the show notes the link so parents can sign up. So that's absolutely fantastic. Now, before we end, I always like to ask my guests a question of what three top tips would you give to parents listening today, I don't know. We've talked about a lot of stuff, so it could be anything.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think one of the first things is that as parents, we often forget that our kids are kids, and I mean that in the sense of they can't possibly understand what it's like to be a parent. But we ask them to. Quite often they don't get what you're talking about. They haven't been a parent, they haven't had the things that you have and we often forget that they don't know these things. And I think that's a huge change that I made in the way that I engage with my kids. I can still tell them, I can still say to them I understand that you probably don't understand these things right now because you haven't been in these steps, but this is how I'm trying to and it's getting on that same level. They forget that you were a kid once, but equally, you've probably forgotten exactly what it felt like at those times as well. So having that understanding helps the perspective from both sides and be able to open a more valuable dialogue. So I think that's one thing and I think, as a neurodiverse parent with neurodiverse kids, it is that also that understanding that you know that you'll be triggered by a lot of the things that they do.
Speaker 2:You have to understand again the impact of our own reactions on that, and that's difficult because, especially when I talk about putting putting yourself first as well but when you're a parent, it's not about not doing that, but it's about making sure that you understand that if you react in a certain way, that will feed into you know, their lack of self-worth, their lack of feeling loved or hurt, seen or heard.
Speaker 2:So it's trying to go in with every conversation with that in the back of your mind, like, okay, how can we level this conversation to a point where I'm not going to be emotionally putting myself forward and putting that onto you, so that feeds back into your negative self-talk cycle and that's, I think that's one of the the key things as well, and I think just being being able to show them some compassion and making sure that they show themselves compassion and empathy, like these, are key things. They need to. They need to be less hard on themselves and I think that comes with, again, us being less hard on them and it's that's really difficult because there's a lot of frustration and it's kind of like sometimes you're just like, oh, my god, and it's like, okay, how can I defuse?
Speaker 2:it's a mind yeah and it's like okay, and and knowing that whatever you're doing as well is the best that you can do with what you have at the time. That's it like you are. Everyone is trying their best, everyone. You go out there, you look around and everyone's got something. It doesn't matter who you interact with. It could be a bit of road rage, it could be someone that you think's rude. Everyone's got something. You have no idea what's going on in everyone's heads and, christ, I have no idea what's going on in my own head most of the time. So I like so just leading with that bit of empathy towards everyone, and when your kids are being a pain in the ass or what you think is a pain in the ass, just understand there's probably a reason for it as well, and and that and that's uh. Leading with that often helps diffuse myself before I can have any level of communication or interaction.
Speaker 1:Those are wise words to live by, ross and I'm. I'm constantly trying to achieve those things and failing you. You have a, you have a calmness and a and a that is. I can imagine that your kids value that. It hasn't always been this way, or at least what I'm.
Speaker 2:In fact, you asked my 20-year-old and he would say that that wasn't the experience he had. So I was the opposite. I had a really short fuse and a really short everything. I was emotional every time. So it's taken a lot of fuse and a really short everything. I was emotional every time. So it's taken a lot of years to get to this point. But yeah, I'm much, I'm much more glad that I am in this situation now, in this position, because it does help.
Speaker 1:And it gives us it gives all the rest of us hope. Well, thank you, Ross, it's been an absolute pleasure to have you on the podcast and you know, as you progress with your project and how it goes, and I'm sure you'll get volunteers from my community and listeners. I'd love to follow up and see how you're doing with this Julio?
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure, I would love to as well. And again, thanks for having me. I love having conversations about these things. I think it's truly valuable, so thanks again.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening. Send Parenting Trot. If you haven't already, please click on the link in the show notes to join us in the private Send Parenting what's Up community. It's been wonderful to be able to communicate with everyone in the community and for us to join together to help each other, to navigate challenges and to also celebrate successes. Wishing you and your family a really good week ahead, thank you, you, you, you, you.