SEND Parenting Podcast
Welcome to the Send Parenting Podcast. I'm your neurodiverse host, Dr Olivia Kessel, and, more importantly, I am a mother to my wonderfully neurodivergent daughter, Alexandra, who really inspired this podcast.
As a veteran in navigating the world of neurodiversity, I have uncovered a wealth of misinformation, alongside many answers and solutions that were never taught to me in medical school or in any of the parenting handbooks.
Each week on this podcast, I will be bringing the experts to your ears to empower you on your parenting crusade.
SEND Parenting Podcast
The reality of a neurodivergent household with Greer Jones, Host of The Unfinished Podcast
Two mothers, both podcast hosts, both raising neurodivergent children in the UK, come together for an honest conversation about the realities that many parents never see coming. Dr. Olivia Kessel (SEND Parenting Podcast) and Greer Jones (The Unfinished Idea) share their raw, unfiltered experiences navigating a system that often feels designed to exclude rather than support.
From the moment Greer's son started school and was immediately restricted to two-hour days, to Olivia's shocking discovery of local authority deception through a subject access request during her daughter's EHCP process, these stories highlight the extraordinary lengths parents must go to secure appropriate education for their children. Both women speak candidly about the emotional toll – the isolation, the constant advocacy, and the financial strain that comes with fighting for services most families take for granted.
But this conversation offers more than commiseration. Drawing from her medical background, Olivia explains how understanding neurodevelopmental differences transforms parenting approaches. Together, they share practical strategies that actually work: using sticky notes to externalize executive functioning, setting up visual timetables, and even programming Alexa to provide reminders that don't trigger the resistance that parental instructions might.
Most powerfully, they discuss finding community amidst the struggle. "We are normal," Olivia emphasizes, noting that 20% of the world is neurodiverse. "Our differences are what make us special." They remind listeners that traditional parenting methods often fail neurodivergent children not because the children are broken, but because those methods weren't designed for their beautifully different brains.
Whether you're raising a neurodivergent child or simply want to better understand and support the families around you, this episode offers valuable insights into turning challenges into opportunities for growth, connection, and yes – even joy. Ready to rewrite the parenting rulebook on terms that actually work for your family?
www.sendparenting.com
Welcome to the Send Parenting Podcast. I'm your neurodiverse host, dr Olivia Kessel, and, more importantly, I'm mother to my wonderfully neurodivergent daughter, alexandra, who really inspired this podcast. As a veteran in navigating the world of neurodiversity in a UK education system, I've uncovered a wealth of misinformation, alongside many answers and solutions that were never taught to me in medical school or in any of the parenting handbooks. Each week on this podcast, I will be bringing the experts to your ears to empower you on your parenting crusade. In this episode, greer Jones and I come together for a heartfelt and honest conversation about parenting neurodiverse children. We'll dive into the personal stories that led us both to create our podcast, the Unfinished Idea and the Send Parenting Podcast, and explore the real gaps that families face when navigating education, diagnosis and daily life. From sharing practical tools that help during meltdowns to advocating for real change in our communities, this episode is about reminding parents they're not alone. Now stay tuned for the trailer from Greer's podcast, the Unfinished Idea.
Speaker 2:Stay tuned for the trailer from Greer's podcast, the Unfinished Idea. Hey, I'm Greer. Welcome to the Unfinished Idea podcast, a space for you to expand your understanding about the neurodiverse world which is all around us. Whether you're a parent, a friend, a teacher or a neighbor, everyone is welcome to join us as we help bring awareness and better understanding about those who are neurodivergent and families who are raising children with special needs. I'm a mom to two boys and two dogs and, together with my husband, raising a child with additional needs. I often feel lonely and overwhelmed my daily experience because life looks different for us. This podcast will share practical help, tips and insights into the difficulties, joys and differences of the neurodiverse world, so let's start the conversation.
Speaker 1:So welcome to the joint episode of the Unfinished Idea and the SEND Parenting Podcast. I'm Dr Olivia Kessel, medical doctor, neurodivergent parent and host of the SEND Parenting Podcast.
Speaker 3:And I'm Grue Jones, host of the Unfinished Idea, a parent who is navigating the neurodiverse world with my son and probably many others in our family. And today Olivia and I are coming together to just have a conversation and talk about kind of just real life, real, honest, raw and practical ways that we can all be doing life supporting parents, caregivers of neurodiverse kids.
Speaker 1:Actually, I couldn't say it any better because, you know, we decided to collaborate on this episode because the more neurodivergent voices that we can hear and there haven't been that many in the UK the better.
Speaker 1:And although we both sound American and are, we are actually in the UK, which I think we need to clarify because, I have a lot of people get confused about that fact, but we both live in the UK and we have kids in the UK system and you know our our views are from the UK but we do come with an American background. But it's great to see more podcasts, in my opinion, coming out now from the UK, because a lot of them have been in the US and it's just a little bit different. Things are different there. A lot of it's the same, but a lot of it also is different if you're working within the system here in the UK. So I think it's great and it's exciting to actually, you know, have a podcast where there's two hosts on board.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think it's just. It's been such an honor and privilege to meet other podcasters who are in this space, because they bring so much wealth and knowledge as well, and just yeah, getting to collab has been one of the best joys and just getting to have conversations that are honest and real has just been, yeah, so fun. And I learn every conversation. I say this on probably every podcast I have but, like every conversation, I walk away from something which is just makes me want to do it even more and just, yeah, have more conversations with people. So, yeah, I'm excited to have this conversation together.
Speaker 1:It's a great way to get people to open the door. You know what I mean I I, you know, I'll talk to people on dog walks. I mean I have a verbal diarrhea problem. My mother's, you know, diagnosed me with that at a very young age. I can't stop talking. But it's so wonderful because with a podcast you can actually meet all these wonderful people that maybe you never would have met, and then you get to share it with everybody. So everyone else gets to. You know, partake in that conversation too. So it definitely fits with my verbal diarrhea lifestyle. So it's lovely. But tell me a little bit Greer about what you know, kind of what brought you to start the podcast. Unfinished Idea.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so a couple of years ago. Now time, I don't know if it's just me or mom thing, but time just goes. So I'm like when was that? But yeah, a couple of years ago, when my I can't believe it's March.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I know, oh gosh, Tomorrow was that. But yeah, a couple years ago, when my I can't believe it's march, yeah I know, oh gosh. Yeah, I literally said to someone oh yeah, christmas happened like a month ago. And they're like no, christmas didn't happen a month ago, um, but yeah anyways. Um, so, yeah, a couple years ago, when my son started school uh, because, yeah, in the uk they start at round four um, we knew when he started school that he just responded to the world differently.
Speaker 3:We weren't really sure what it was Like. We weren't sure if it was ADHD, autism. We even were like, is it dyslexia? Because he had like quite a bit of a speech delay. We weren't sure, but we just knew he processed the world differently. And so we approached school and said, you know, let's work together and we're kind of I don't know, just, it was a, it was just, I think, a polite conversation is what I call it. And within the first week of him starting, so that conversation happened before he started. And so, yeah, within the first week of him starting school came to us and said they can't, they weren't being able to handle him and just his needs, and so that really just started us on this journey of like.
Speaker 3:Okay, and we were, I mean, like you said so, growing up in the U S, having parents who are teachers in the U S. I know the U S school system really well. I know the UK system not at all Like, even though I've lived here for almost 15 years like it's a new system, a new vibe, is what I say, you know. Just, it's kind of a whole new thing. And so so not only was I trying to navigate just the school system and you know school gates and all of that, but also just now being told like your child can only come in for two hours a day, like and just kind of that reality. And and that was all they kind of offered, that was it, that was, there was nothing else. Um, they offering. They were just like, oh, he can't come in for the whole day, so come in for two hours. And we were like, oh, okay, you know. And so, um, I'm just so grateful for a friend.
Speaker 3:I was talking to her whose son is autistic and a bit few, I can always say, about five years ahead of me, um, and I was just talking to her and was like, is this normal? Did you go through this, like what you know, she's also not from the UK, so I was, we also. We often talk about our kind of experiences of like trying to navigate a different kind of culture as well, as you know, having growing kids who are in this culture, um, but yeah, so she just was like nope, this is all wrong. She sent me so many documents and things about kind of just what was legally allowed that they could do and so and that's when I realized I was going to have to start advocating for my son and so, yeah, so that kind of process has taken us to about a year ago actually, when I just started also really like going through what I was going through with school and just having meetings and trying to get support he needed and getting him, just all of those things, and realizing school, the individuals, the teachers, aren't the problem, it's the system, and just kind of realizing that a lot of people just didn't understand what I was going through, like our friends and family, and so I kind of started sharing a bit more online, just like on social media, about our experiences and kind of just getting some feet like positive feedback, like just like people coming, other people being like oh, yeah, we experienced that. Or you know our son, you know it like sounds so similar, or you know just different things.
Speaker 3:And so from that I realized that there's a lot of people there's kind of two things a lot of people who are scared to talk about it and so because they don't know how the world's going to react to have their child or themselves having kind of different needs, being wired differently. But there's also a lot of people who want to help, but they don't know what questions to ask or how to support. And so just through having these kind of conversations I realized like, yeah, these kind of two I don't want to say audiences, like in a bad way, but just you know these two kind of groups of people. And so it was talking to a friend and she's like you should a podcast, and I was like, okay, um, so that's kind of why I started the podcast, like partly just to one who's like, oh, it's a great way to reach more people and to have just honest conversations with a lot of people.
Speaker 3:Um, and so, yeah, with the podcast, I I try and always talk about ways people can support or questions people can ask, or what could it look like for someone to support someone in different situations, um, because I'm aware that there is, that there are people out there who want to, you know, who want to help, um, but then also sharing the everyday um. I kind of say we share the everyday joy, struggles and differences, um, and so making sure we have conversations like that so long way to say. A friend told me to start it and I did, but yeah, so it's just yeah, it's been a journey for sure.
Speaker 1:It resonates with me as well because it's, you know, it started with your own experience and then it kind of grew from there. And I would say that that was kind of the similar impetus to my starting of the Sam Parenting Podcast, was similar because, you know, it came from a place where, okay, I didn't know how to navigate this system. I didn't even know, you know, until they said, oh, she's not like you, not going to be, you know, going forward in this school. I was like what, what do you mean? She's not going to be going forward in this school? And then I was like, well, then I'm pulling her out of the school because I'll find another school. And then realizing, well, actually it's not really easy to find another school. And then, learning about the EHCP, I was like what's an EHCP? Why they hadn't told me about an EHCP, which is an educational healthcare plan. For anyone that doesn't know what that is.
Speaker 1:And then the journey journey of getting that EHCP, which literally almost killed me is the only way I can describe it. It took over two years. We were doing it during COVID the amount of misinformation. I mean, I'm a doctor, I would consider myself relatively intelligent and I couldn't figure it out. And then also, none of my friends circles had a neurodivergent child, none of them were experiencing. And I was kind of ashamed or not ashamed is the wrong word but they're all talking about what schools, how well their children are doing, and I'm like you know that's not what's going on in my household, you know, and I just felt incredibly alone and incredibly unsupported.
Speaker 1:And then, like the process of the EHCP, I remember, like you know, they wanted my daughter to go to a mainstream school, which I would have been happy to send her to if it would meet her needs. And they you know the local authority I'm in Oxfordshire said, well, you know, and they actually sent a spreadsheet, they can meet needs and this is how much the needs will cost in this school be 6,000 pounds extra. So I went and visited the school, I talked to the SENCO there. I'm like can you meet my daughter daughter's needs? Here are all of her assessments. And you know we went through everything and you know they didn't at that time say to me that they thought they could meet my daughter's needs.
Speaker 1:So I was rather surprised when the local authority said we can meet needs for only 6,000 pounds a year. So luckily I had a solicitor, luckily I could borrow money from my father to get a solicitor to fight the local authority. And he said you know what, olivia, I think we need to do a subject access request. I said what is a subject access request? He said, well, basically what we're going to do is we're going to get all the emails that the local authority has sent to this school. And I said, oh, we can do that. He's like, yeah, actually his father presided on a case that initially had done that. So we get all these emails and I'm reading through them and it the local authority even said don't put anything in here because parents are getting wise to asking for this.
Speaker 1:Okay, but the school didn't listen because they didn't want my daughter at the school and actually the price that they quoted was £64,000 a year to educate my child in their school. And they said they had grave doubts that they'd be able to make needs because they wanted to put my daughter up a year because she was a summer baby. I think she was a couple of weeks out of the year that she was actually now in. Well, that couple of weeks, even though she was struggling, the local authority thought, well, we'll just put her ahead of year. So they wanted her to start in secondary school.
Speaker 1:Okay, I mean, do you want, why not? Just, you know, blow her up right then and there, and I was like I mean, my heart rate was like 15 beats higher than it normally was. I was a stress case and luckily, you know, we got this and I said, oh well, now, now, maybe we can take them to court, maybe we're going to arrest these people. You know this, this is fraudulent. No, my, my, my solicitor was like Olivia, we need to play this really calmly now. You know, this is a good bargaining tool. I'm like what do you mean? It's a bargaining tool that they've outright lied? No, we still had to and we still ended up going to tribunal.
Speaker 1:We, I mean, and the night before they conceded, and it was just such a horrific period of my life, you know, not to mention the challenges at home and and and not having any support.
Speaker 1:No one understood me and I felt so alone and I was so angry and frustrated and pissed off, if I'm honest, and I said to my solicitor I said you know what?
Speaker 1:I'm going to start a podcast. I don't have the energy in me to complain to the local authority and take them to court, but I do have the energy to give back to other moms out there and it is mainly moms dads too I spoke to a nice dad last week, but it's just. I wanted to create a place where I could empower other mothers, where they could learn about things like a subject access request, where they could learn from experts in the legal field, in education, in the medical field, all the questions that you need to have answered, and then from other parents too, and the powerful journeys that they've been on, so that you just don't feel so alone, and so that I mean as another long story made short, not really you know, and it's given me, like you said, as much as I've given it, and it's really helped me to actually get my daughter diagnosed with ADHD, which has been incredible.
Speaker 1:So it's yeah, it's such a gift to be able to be a host of a podcast.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah and yeah, that I mean the EHCP process is so we are still actually going through it.
Speaker 1:We've like oh you poor thing.
Speaker 3:It's so ridiculous and it's crazy Just the. I think misinformation is probably a better word. I sometimes I'm like the lies because I'm just so mad.
Speaker 3:Our nursery. So he went to nursery at three. Again, I was like is there any support? You know like, cause they were kind of coming to me saying like, oh, that's, it was just a horrible experience. And they literally said to me oh, we can't offer any support until he's seven. And so I was thinking like, oh my gosh, he's like for four years I'm going to have to like, I'm going to have to do this, you know like for so long, because I was like oh my goodness, and just and like Because you respect their authority.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and the same way, like you think, like I thought I had white coat syndrome with teachers, like they tell you and you're like, oh, okay, okay, but actually no, that's not in no realm of any world. Is it okay that your child and you are not going to be supported till he's seven? Yeah, he can have a dyslexic test, which is what I think they were referring to probably yeah, and just one.
Speaker 3:Like often, full, formal, formal diagnosis happened around six and seven for most things and so, but I was like, so I just was like, oh, my goodness, I'm gonna have to do this, and yeah, it was so hard. And then school coming coming in, like you said, because I was like, oh, there's school, they should know the law, they should know what is and isn't allowed, like that's their job, you know, and it's just over and over. I just see, like you say, just the misinformation of stuff being done and sometimes local authorities give misinformation to school.
Speaker 1:So it's, you know it is muddled in a lot of confusion, you know yeah.
Speaker 3:And I mean it just totally depends on where you are, even in the UK, depending on what local authority will and won't do I mean. So the area I'm in isn't great, isn't known to have a great Mine too, yeah, like it's. Yeah, it's not, it's not the best, so and that I mean, and that's hard like, because, especially where we live in a quite diverse area, and so there a lot of the children in my son's school, english is not their first language and so again, they're navigating, like, trying to understand the school system as well. And so then, if their child's being told like, or they're being told about their child, certain things there I know for a fact they're going to believe it, because I've talked to moms at the school gate about it and it's just, it's so heartbreaking, like it's partly. I mean, yeah, we started a whatsapp chat in our school for sin moms. Um, originally it was for parents and then we realized no offense to the dads, but moms carry a lot of the load, like just because of think, the nature of I don't know life, um, but and yeah, so we started this whatsapp group and it's been so encouraging.
Speaker 3:Um, it's not massive, it's. You know, there's kind of a few of us, but we just just, yeah, it's a mixture of like hey, do you know anything about this topic? Or you know, I have my EHCP review. You know I'm worried about this, or whatever you know to like we made it on time or we made it just to school. You know like to celebrate, and it's just having that group has been so helpful to not feel alone as well. It's so, it's, it's so powerful, yeah, um, I mean yeah, because it's, it's a lonely journey. It's. Yeah, it's hard. Um, and like you said as well, you, you're just caring a lot like you're, like you know, I mean the whole, each, each cp process. Like you said, it's on top of caring for your child, but it's not.
Speaker 1:And the financial repercussions of it. I mean, I had actually put my daughter in a specialist independent school, borrowing money from my father. So if he lives too long, we're in trouble. I'm paying him back slowly and I want him to live for a really long time. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:We scraped together the money and when we were going through the negotiations, because they said to me they weren't going to help me with transport and the school's an hour away. So I was currently driving four hours a day, which is not sustainable and being a single, only breadwinner, it's not sustainable. And she couldn't take the public bus because she was eight, nine years old. You know, she just it was not possible. And they're like well, are you going to risk it? Are you going to risk fighting? It felt like a game of chicken with the local authority. And my dad said to me he goes, olivia, he goes, you. Just you've got to risk it. So I risked it and then I said no, I'm not accepting that. And then we're driving around and he goes to me well, olivia, if you lose your house, you lose your house. And I was like what do you mean if I lose my house? He goes. Well, now you're going to have to sell your house to pay for the school fees. And I'm like he's right. I'm like why did I risk it all? Started pulling out my hair. But you want to do what's best for your child.
Speaker 1:I just had my EHCP review yesterday and she's made such progress. It's the right place for her. If she hadn't gotten to that school and gotten the right place, I would have sold kidneys to keep her there. But yeah, it's not a good process for parents. I know apparently there are local authorities that are really good. I guess I don't hear those stories because if it goes really good you don't really want to come on a podcast and complain about it. But yeah, that's true. So where are you in your journey with your EHCP?
Speaker 3:So we are still, we're still in it, we're right in the thick of it. So it's been drafted, submitted and then that's it. So, and there's such a backlog, it's like I've chased it. I mean, I chase it all the time.
Speaker 3:I kind of joke that are my school, they have a love-hate relationship for me because they like I'm very much active in the school and like try and do a lot of things to build school community. But then I also come and I'm like right, so how are we fixing this policy? Or how are we doing this for send kids? And so I'm sure they are like why are you here? Do we love you or hate you today? But yeah, so we're just very much still. Yeah, I just say we're in the middle of it, we there's, there's no end in sight yet, but it's still ticking and I think that's better. I'd rather it be ticking along than having to do appeals and doing all of that. Um, cause I know I won't be surprised if I have to do that. So I'm just kind of like okay, we'll just take it a step at a time.
Speaker 1:Um, yeah, and uh, and I mean yeah. And then I mean I, when we got the tribunal, even though they conceded the night before, which then means you still have to pay for your solicitor, you still have to pay for all your specialist witnesses and you still have to pay them, cause they know that this is what the local authority does, you know, I just burst into tears with the judge. He's like how do you feel, dr Kessel? And I'm like yeah, that says it all.
Speaker 3:Yes, you know, yes, exactly, and it's like it's just, it's such an emotional rollercoaster and you're, but you're like you can't really deal. I mean, I at least for myself, I can't always deal with my emotions, right, then I have to just keep going. And then it's like so I mean, the thing we've really been trying to get is some, like some, accommodation. So he's done a lot better this year, but, um, last year there was no routine, no structure, and he thrives on that, and so trying to get that for him was just so hard. And it finally happened. And, like you, I just they said, okay, we, this is what we're going to do to accommodate him. And I just broke down crying like in the office and they're like are you okay? And I was like I just hadn't realized how much I was holding with that. To hear you say that is now happening, it's just like flooded out, like it's just.
Speaker 1:You know the joy, sadness you know all of the things were just and it's so sad because they should. You know, like it's part of a school's obligation. You know it's on websites that they have to make necessary adjustments for children. It builds up the kind of story for your EHCP, you know, and these interventions should happen. They're send registers, they're not regulated and they differ from school to school.
Speaker 1:But really, you know, I had last week I had on two legal experts that are releasing next week actually about IATAS and that, and you know they made an interesting point.
Speaker 1:They said, you know it's, the earlier you can start tracking your kid's progress and especially when, like you've commented now, you know they're not doing well, now they're finally putting structures so that he can be supported and have things the way he needs it, the earlier you do that, then you avoid the problems later on. And I was thinking to myself you know, like, how they got electronic medical records? We should have electronic school records that parents put into, because you need that evidence, because you might choose to homeschool, or you have to or don't, or whatever, or as you build towards things, you need that evidence. Okay, what intervention was made? How did it work? And parents need to work with schools but have that visibility to be able to then have the case for EHCP and hopefully never get to the place where you need IATAS, because you're not sending a kid over and over into an environment that they can't cope with and therefore they're having burnouts, meltdowns and, and you know, shutting down.
Speaker 3:Basically, you know? So yeah, there's actually an app called SYN Life, so S-E-N Life. That is really good. I have talked to one of the Does it do that?
Speaker 3:And it does that. And what I love about it is you can do a voice note and it transcribes it into like a, into a note, and then you can just have it. So I use it almost every day just as a like he had a good day, Things seem to go well, or he seemed triggered, we're not sure why. Or you know just whatever, yeah, Whatever, and it like holds to go well. Or he seemed triggered, we're not sure why. Or you know just whatever, whatever, and it like holds it all together and then you can actually have it kind of create reports for you. I mean, you need to check it. It's not I wouldn't say it's not perfect just because it's an app. It's not a person and you know your child, but yeah it, it does all that. So I highly recommend it. It's. It's really good. That's a fantastic idea.
Speaker 1:It's great that it's already out there and I would recommend parents, like the minute, like you said, you, you noticed it very early on, I didn't, and, and I think other parents that you know especially, I think with girls as well, it can. You know, I wish I knew now, I wish I knew then, what I knew now, what I know now. Yes, you know, yeah, but you know, I think it's just it's important that we start thinking about just monitoring our children's progress in school and how they're doing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, and it just yeah because we've had to get, we've gone to GP, like we've had so many other people involved as well, just because I was like this isn't working. I'm gonna go somewhere like, not somewhere else in a bad way, but just like, let, we need, I need more voices and so, yeah, having this app I could generate, like, okay, this is all the things he's, all his triggers like can you, you know, can you help me? And I took it to the GP once and um, I'm I don't know.
Speaker 3:She she was very kind, she was actually really helpful, but she also at first was just a bit like unsure of all. But I was like here's all the things I've documented for the last two months. And she's like, oh right, it was like because I had it documented, I had it ready. It kind of shifted her perspective, I think, a little bit, and I was just like, yeah, yeah, here it is, like this is all the things that I just kind of handed her my phone, you can get the, you could print them out and stuff as well. I just thought, oh, I don't mind her having my phone for a minute.
Speaker 3:But yeah, and it, it really. She was like, oh wow, this is really. This is taking you hours to write. And I was like, oh, actually I just spend like 30 seconds every day sending myself voice notes on this app. And then we had a conversation about it and it, it was like it was just really. I just thought, oh wow, 30 seconds every day has meant he's, he's I don't want to say he's being taken serious, but you know what I mean. Just that like yeah, I didn't actually spend hours thinking back what's happened over the last two months, what's you know, it's just been.
Speaker 1:Well, our memory is notoriously terrible. We are really really really bad from a medical perspective. You just you don't remember what happens in the past. And then we have, you know it's skewed, so you have to really do it in the moment for it to be accurate and unfortunately, both schools and healthcare they're not as knowledgeable as we'd like them to be.
Speaker 1:In neurodiversity I wasn't taught anything and I've talked to recent graduates of medical school. They're not taught a lot about neurodiversity. I've talked to educators as well. I just actually was at my daughter's school yesterday and this woman was being trained in a teaching program in Oxford they're given a week to learn about neurodiversity and said we were actually told that dyslexia is only a reading problem and she said and then they didn't really touch on the other stuff. So there isn't that knowledge that we probably have as parents because we've done so much research ourselves.
Speaker 1:But they're the gatekeepers to you kind of getting diagnosed, unfortunately. So having those notes and having that evidence does give you authority and power then to kind of break down some of those barriers that we have in healthcare and teaching. Still, it's getting better, but especially with underrepresented or unrecognized like, let's say, adhd not the hyperactive little boy, but more like my daughter, the daydreamer, the emotionally dysregulated girl. It's just different. So, um, yeah, it becomes. The parent has to become empowered to be able to, um, to, to be able to, to, to break through that. So so I mean, with your GP, showing them all this evidence, um, did it help?
Speaker 3:Yeah, oh, yeah, definitely she, um, I mean she. So she kind of read through it and then just having my son in the room, so we were trying to get him kind of sped up on the process for an ADHD diagnosis and she could just see she was like yep, I can see what you've written is also happening in the room, so it's not just a one-off instance, if that makes sense. So cause he just yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Cause it has to be more than one setting.
Speaker 3:it's not just a one-off instance, if that makes sense, because he just yeah, yeah, because it has to be more than one setting, yeah, yeah. So she was like because of that, yeah, I can. And so she, yeah, she. I don't want to say she bumped us up, but she was like no, I can see. This is actually really critical, and to get full access of what support you're needing, you do need a diagnosis for some of this. So, yeah, let's work together. So it worked really well. It's I have to laugh, though it's. Uh. So my son, he constantly, he is for ADHD. He is what people think for men, for boys, I should say like he is constantly moving. Um, I mean, he was sitting in the chair and his leg, his legs, were just like, like frog legs, like they were just moving back and forth.
Speaker 3:I can imagine um and like, and then he was like having to touch everything. So he was like literally just walking around the walls just touching all, and she was, and I was like I'm going to just let him do it, because she, I need her to see that this is our everyday Like I'm, you know, cause there's sometimes where I'll say, oh, let's, let's sit down, here's some fidget toys or you know, let's. You know there are places where that isn't always helpful. But I thought, no, she needs to see that this is her every day. Um, and the other thing is he does a lot of vocal stemming, which isn't always an ADHD thing, but with his autism and, um, again, he just started singing and dancing and break dancing in in, you know, her little GP office and I was like, yeah, I'm going to yeah, sometimes they don't.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean when you want them to do something. They're like sitting there as good as gold.
Speaker 3:Yeah, oh, no, yeah no, he was like, and I was just like, yeah, and she's like, and then she goes. So is this every day? And I said, from the moment he wakes up at 5am till the time he goes to bed about eight, yes, this is what happens every day, like and she's like, okay, yeah, let's, let's look into this. And I was just like thank you, yes, um, but yeah, it was, it was I had. I think back on that appointment and just have to laugh sometimes because it was, he was so, he was so himself, which was great, but also just so, very, so, very ADHD, um, which I just had to laugh. I have a question for you, though. So you have a daughter, I have a son, and I think it's very maybe it's not very well known. It's well known in maybe the neurodiverse world that girls are diagnosed later because of masking and just kind of different things that girls do and don't present. How did you yeah, I don't want to say, how did you go about realizing? That sounds strange, but yeah.
Speaker 1:No, I think it's a good. It is a good way of putting it because I think you know you're right about, you know, girls tend to be diagnosed a couple years after boys, three to five years actually, and it's usually around 11. And there's I think it's multifactorial One that people don't recognize their symptoms, including myself as a doctor, which really makes you feel, you know, pretty proud of yourself, and also that their hormones start to play a role then, and then also there's often transitions then too, where life becomes more stressful. So it's all of those different things that kind of culminate into it. And I think, you know, I wish I'd recognized earlier, but it was actually the podcast that helped me to come to that realization, and I was actually.
Speaker 1:I was doing a podcast about never giving up, because my daughter, like the music in the beginning of my podcast, is some music that my dad and my daughter composed together, about never giving up when you have challenges, and so that's the beginning of my podcast, and I was going to do a podcast on her and I had the most diabolical morning ever with her. I mean, I literally I thought I cannot be her mother anymore. I just I quit. You know, that's how I felt and I had to. I was like I've been doing this podcast on never giving up. I'm like, well, maybe I need to never give up. And I thought about, like you know all the things that you know I'd been learning, listening and talking to experts and I thought about what I was seeing with Alexandra and you know, this emotional dysregulation, this just chaos, you know, and just such volatility. That was just, you know, I couldn't explain it with hormones and stuff like that. And I went back and I looked at her Ed Psych report where they had put in there that you know I had read it. But I have to be honest, reading those reports that you get done for the EHCP, they're painful, and so I blocked out most of the stuff that I had read in them and, as I have explained, it was a really stressful time and in it it does say she's like it's exhibiting, you know, some executive functioning skills, issues, delays that could be indicative of ADHD, and I was like, you know, I've always thought my brother had ADHD and my father has ADHD, but why would she have ADHD? And then, you know, that kind of got me on my journey to learning more and actually it's inspired me.
Speaker 1:Now I've just finished writing a book which, as a dyslexic, I never thought I would do and it's about. It's called ADHD on Mass and it's about a doctor and a daughter's journey, because I had no idea my head was firmly buried in the sand. I just didn't want anything else. You know, she was diagnosed as dyslexic. She had cerebral palsy when she was young, from an endoencephalitis. I just I felt like it was another something and I just couldn't deal with another something and then actually learning about it and understanding her brain and just really diving into the science of it.
Speaker 1:Now I get it and now, like our lives I mean our lives have changed so much for the better. It's, it's remarkable. So you know, like it was such an affirming process to get it and then to go along this pathway of of and we're in such a better place now. So you know, I would just encourage any parents it sounds like you're already one of those parents. You know, you just you know you weren't burying your head in the ground like I was, but you know it's and to and to hopefully, and I know there's a lot of publicity now around it too, but people's minds are starting to change because it's not just ADHD, it's also autism can present very differently and even dyslexia can present very differently.
Speaker 1:So it's really understanding when a child is struggling and when their behavior is so out of control. It's not them trying to be naughty, it's not them. It's not you as a parent just being a terrible parent or a terrible mother. Look deeper, find out what's going on, you know, and then you can really get to solutions that work. Now I know how her brain is wired. Now I know about the prefrontal cortex and developmental delay. You know. Now I know about solutions that actually work, which I didn't know even with a medical degree. So you know.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I had a. It was a big kind of mindset moment for me about around meltdowns and just that kind of reality of what's happening when they're having a meltdown, but also just how can I react in a meltdown. You know, cause I it was like I'll just be honest, I get really frustrated. When he'd have a meltdown, I'd just be like why?
Speaker 1:you know, like Almost triggers a meltdown in you.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah like and and when I, yeah, like you say you kind of once you're, you get into like some of the science of it, kind of just other people's experience like, just when you start to really explore it, you kind of realize, oh, you know like, and that could be for meltdown, that could be for whatever like, but just for me it was meltdowns and realizing, yeah, just just realizing what was actually happening and, like you said, like it was kind of then triggering a meltdown in me and how I can handle my own emotions in those moments.
Speaker 3:And not that I'm perfect, but you know, like we're working, working on it, um, just yeah, it it kind of just opens you up to then, I guess, exploring more, like you said, you know just that, realizing, okay, this is how their brain works, this is how they're wired, this is, you know, every child's different, every human's different. So some of that is the, you know, the complexity is what works for one might not work for another, but you just, yeah, you become an expert on your child and what works for them, and so it's, yeah, it's. I find it sometimes fun I say something like define something that works. But getting to that point is really hard, and like that journey of like yeah, of being like okay.
Speaker 3:And then when?
Speaker 1:it goes when it goes backwards sometimes as well, and you're like, oh my God, it's like Groundhog Day and I'm back here again. But then now I have the tools to go forward again and I think you know, when people would say, oh, the prefrontal cortex, I'm like, yeah, I know where the prefrontal cortex is, is behind your forehead, but who knew? You know how much the prefrontal cortex does. You know it does a whole bunch of stuff and it's delayed in pretty much all neurodiversities you know autism, adhd, dyslexia. It has issues and they'll be different and vary from child to child.
Speaker 1:But you know, our executive functioning skills start when we're two years old and they slowly develop over time and they develop in a step-like manner and our kids are delayed In ADHD. My daughter's case she's, you know, 30% delayed, and so me expecting her to be which is what I was at 11, her to be at a certain level, and all of my friends' kids were, you know, absolutely fine being left at home. We're making lunches, we're getting their bags packed and I'm like what is going on here? You know we just have, you know, things are being thrown. You know it's yeah, and then understanding that, okay, I need to manage my expectations and I need to actually meet up to where she's at in terms of her executive functioning age, not her chronological age, and then finding those just right kind of challenges. So what can she do in the house versus what she can't do? And yesterday I have to tell my proud mommy moment, because mornings have been a nightmare for a long time and we've been winning with them. But you know there's ups and downs.
Speaker 1:But yesterday, you know, she got ready. I now make her breakfast at 5.30 in the morning because that's when she wants to eat and instead of eating crap, I make her her breakfast at 5.30. She eats it. She went up, she got ready. I was working on editing my book, putting footnotes in which, for dyslexic is close to like ripping out my own fingernails, and she came down. She goes mommy, you're not ready yet. I said no, I'm not, I'm not ready yet. And she's like you know what? I'll do the dishwasher for you. I said what? You're not my child. She's 13 now. But you know I was like wow, you know, wow, what a change in a couple of years.
Speaker 3:You know, for a sudden he does. He can react very aggressively, and so when he so he'll, he'll hit, he'll just hit anything and anyone and it's just sometimes very hard.
Speaker 3:So when he doesn't do that, like I'm like we celebrate so big. And I know, like I know there are people who are like, wow, like you know, like they just celebrated for that, Like that should be a quote, unquote, normal response. But for them it's like such a big thing and you just like, let's celebrate that. You know. So it's like, yeah, your daughter offering to do the dish. It's like that's a big thing, that's such a monument I don't know if monumental is the right word, but that's, you know, like it's such a big thing, Like let's celebrate, let's, let's have joy in it.
Speaker 1:And you know who cares what the world is, who else is thinking that, but like, yeah, and also, you know there's shame, like oh, your kid's hitting you and stuff like that and they're throwing stuff at you and they're pinching you. I mean all of that stuff. You know it's not because they're trying to hurt you, it's not because they're a bad child, it's because they've literally they're completely unregulated and they can't cope with it. You know, and you know it's with my daughter too, it's just like, you know, it scared me and what's going to happen as she gets older? You know. No, we just need to peel back those onions and find out what's at the root cause, get to it and, you know, put the right things in place so that she, when you see that, that starting that, then she can calm down, because that's the key is really to catch it before it explodes yes, exactly, yeah, oh, there's, it's, yeah, it's.
Speaker 3:I say most of my job is kind of thinking five steps ahead and just kind of being like okay, if this happens, then okay, yeah, like because, yeah, if you can kind of catch it before it completely spirals, everyone is better.
Speaker 1:Just once it spirals, it's just gotta. It's gotta they've got to wear themselves out, basically, and just try and keep safe is all I can say.
Speaker 3:You know, yeah yeah, exactly, yeah, it's. Yeah, we call it meltdown wave. It's that you just have to ride the wave and just keep everyone safe, but you know it will calm down, just but wait for it. Um, but yeah, no, it's. Yeah, I, I have two boys, so girls are, and I have all brothers, so I don't have, I don't have really any girls in my life, except my mom, and she's 4 000 miles away. So, um, it's always.
Speaker 3:I find it really interesting women, like women and girls and just how things present in them and how different it is. And, yeah, I was reading an article actually a couple of weeks ago and I was saying how a lot of, not so much. Now, I think the first and I'm so sorry I'm going to probably quote this wrong but like, I think the first full study for ADHD I think it was just ADHD in women was in like 2018. Study for ADHD I think it was just ADHD in women was in like 2018. And since that point, it had been majority male, if not all male, focus and like, and I just thought that was such I don't know. I found that so heartbreaking but interesting in that, like 2018 was the first time that it was like oh, actually women might have this like you know it's, you know it's I, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, women need research about them. I mean, look at menopause as well. And, and you know, yeah, I mean it was in America. Actually you could get Viagra on health insurance before you could get the oral contraceptive pill.
Speaker 1:So there is a definite bias in terms of research and in terms of medication and research into it too, which is also multifactorial. It's easier to test stuff on boys and men, but it's still it's. You know, it is something that needs to change and I think you know at least I've learned so much and I think, hopefully you know, through podcasts like this, through the book I've written, through books I've seen have come out now too, that more and more people are coming out and saying this is my journey. I mean the amount of women that have been misdiagnosed with personality disorders, depression, have been put on tons of medication that hasn't worked because it wasn't what was wrong with them, they were neurodiverse. It's just insane. And it's interesting because the children are kind of shining a light on the parent as they're trying to help their child. They're themselves realizing their own diagnosis. So it's beautiful in one way, but it's also very sad as well, and grandmothers and grandfathers as well, you know, yeah, so it's interesting, it's yeah, I, yeah, I think it's.
Speaker 3:It's really interesting, just like you said, as the parent is advocating for their child realizing as well, oh, I have that, or you know, or that's how I react, or you know different things, and I think it's, yeah, I, I'm excited because I think that there's going to be, like you said, changes happening, but I think more changes is happening. It's like a snowball effect. I think it's like really getting momentum and, yeah, I think it'll be. I'm excited, I'm, I'm hopeful that the world is going in not all areas, but in this area the right direction. Um, and yeah, just kind of the things that are happening.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, I think it'll be a very different place when our children are our age. You know, yeah, my daughter wants her children to be neurodiverse, you know. Yeah, my mother said to me, you know she'd put them in an institution. So I mean, you just see, in three generations.
Speaker 3:That's good, that's good growth.
Speaker 1:I don't think she she's passed. I don't think she would have felt that way if she'd met my daughter. But or you know, and also I don't think she realized it, but she actually raised two neurodiverse children, but yeah, she just didn't know what kind of I don't know.
Speaker 3:I guess I loved you. You're a doctor, you're a mom, you're a writer, You're all. You're so many things. You're a doctor, you're a mom, you're a writer, you're all. You're so many things. But what would you kind of share with people about just life, work, strategies, Like how can you I don't know what I'm trying to say, I'm sorry, my brain, this conversation? I just love this conversation because I just feel like you can sorry, you can edit this out, but I just feel like I've got so much from you, so I'm like trying to process, I'm not gonna edit that out.
Speaker 3:a compliment I'll take, I'll play it back. Yeah, it's like processing and also trying to like, I don't know, I just feel, yeah, I'm just like, oh my gosh, don't let this end. Um, anyways sorry, let me get back to the point um, but like, yeah, just I guess, from both a mom and medical point of view, like, is there things that we as moms, parents, carers, could be doing to support our kids? Does that make? Does that make sense? Does that?
Speaker 1:No, and I think that's kind of what I try and say in my book actually, because that is where my two brains kind of meet. I've got the mom in me who's, like you know, loves my daughter. Has got all of her like parenting handbook that doesn't work at all and all the parenting tips that I've had haven't worked until I've started meeting. Like neurodiverse parenting books like Dr Naomi Fisher and things like that. I'm like, ah, you know, wow, that's like. And then the doctor side of me has really delved into the science behind neurodiversity, because for me and I've geeked out on it and then in my book I try and simplify it. Because once you understand what's going on in the networks of the brain, you know the structures of the brain, the neurotransmitters in the brain, once you figure that out then you can really find solutions that work. Now, not all solutions work for everybody, but if you understand the basis then you can try different solutions, that kind of bridge those gaps or make things easier. You know, like a simple thing, like having lists. You know what I mean and you'll see this. In my house we have this is what you do first and first brush your teeth. And we started with stick it notes because she can pull them off. I've heard of other parents who've used little light things that you stick on and you tap it and it lights up. Well, that's externalizing the child's GPS, which isn't working so well, which is their prefrontal cortex, and it makes it easy. And then their brains start wiring it right. So eventually it becomes a habit.
Speaker 1:My daughter doesn't need the notes anymore. Okay, it's taken a year and a half, but she doesn't need it anymore because it's a habit. She knows now she doesn't need to use her executive functioning skills. It's out of there Now, her calculator. At her EHCP meeting yesterday they said, you know, she doesn't know which commands to put in when.
Speaker 1:And I said well, have you tried putting it step by step in? You know this kind of way with stick it notes, do this and keep repeating it. She'll get it. And they're like oh, that's a very good idea, dr Kessel. So I think for me, like where the mother and the doctor, like kind of combines, is understanding, like where the mother and the doctor, like kind of combines, is understanding the differences in the brain and then translating that into my mothering journey and how I parent, and it's really helped me in my expectations in kind of how I do things, how I view myself as a parent. It has shifted as well by that. And then it's trial and error to see what works with your kid, and when you find something that works, you can build on it and use it in different scenarios.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's so. Yeah, I love the sticky note we've done. Yeah, we've not done sticky notes, but we do pick cause he's he's a bit younger, but we do like visual timetables for everything he loves he. Yeah, like I said, structure is so important, so visual timetables. But I like that idea of the sticky note with kind of the more detailed steps, so it's not just brush your teeth, it's you know it could be put toothpaste. You know, grab your toothbrush, put toothpaste. You know, grab the toothpaste, put it on. You know, kind of breaking down those steps even more.
Speaker 1:And then ripping them off and scrunching them up and chucking it in the bin. Oh, what fun. You know a lot of work because you have to keep writing those bloody stick it notes. So then I changed to bunting and I had clips with flashcards that could be reused, so she could rip them off and throw them down, but then I could stick them back up again. Yeah, Smart, smart.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's yeah. And, like you said, the, you know something that, as you were saying that, the thing that came to my mind, which I hadn't even thought that I hadn't realized that this is what we were doing, is like getting dressed in the morning, so, um, I get all his clothes out. So we, we come downstairs, it's just easier for it. So it's all out on a his little table and I always say to him okay, time to get dressed, first put on your shirt, you know. And then I say time to get dressed, then put on your pants, time to get dressed, you know, I verbally say it to him and then I kind of hand it to him. And how I noticed, yeah, like the last couple of weeks, I've noticed I can say time to get dressed and he'll go, oh, okay, and he's like he now knows what to do. You know, it's that, like you said, that kind of I hadn't.
Speaker 1:He's formed a habit.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so, as you were saying that, I was like oh, we formed a habit. We formed a habit, yay. And then you built on those, yeah.
Speaker 3:We're getting there. We're getting there One habit at a time. One habit at a time. But, yeah, like and I think that's something that, yeah, as you were saying, I thought, oh, that's a difference. I know there are other parents out there who can just say to their kids at five, go get dressed. And they can, they can go get dressed or they can put on their shoes or whatever. And the idea that for a lot of neurodivergent families they need to take that step back and just go a bit slower. They'll get there eventually, but it just takes a little more, a little longer.
Speaker 1:And sometimes we have really bad mornings where she doesn't want to go to school and you know what, maybe I need to dress her, and that's okay. And then I also use Alexa because she doesn't like me. As he gets older, she doesn't want me to keep telling her to do and telling often can be a problem too, because they'll hear it and then maybe I'm as you've already, I like to talk, so I might give like three instructions at once, and that doesn't work. And the one instruction, you know so, having that visual, when they can see the visual, whether that be a drawing or words, or you know, my daughter much prefers to hear Alexa than to hear me, you know. So Alexa, you know, says oh, Alexandra, have you packed your bag? And then, oh, Alexandra, have you packed your bag? And then, oh, Alexandra, have you put your shoes on? And then it reminds her as well.
Speaker 3:So it's all sorts of different ways, that's smart. I might have to train our Alexa to do that as well, and then she'll be like Alexa shut up yeah.
Speaker 1:Which I don't take offense to and I'm like, but you can't tell her to shut up until you've done what she's told you to do.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I'm like, but you can't tell her to shut up until you've done what she's told you to do. Yeah, yeah, that's so smart. Yeah, I might now need to write myself a sticky note to talk to Alexa about setting those reminders. But yeah, that's yeah. I find it really interesting how the brain works and I am not a doctor, so I will not necessarily be reading all the medical journals, but hearing from people who are, who also get the kind of neurodivergent side as well, it's just. It brings in a different lens, I think, than just a clinical doctor. I don't know if I can say, you know if that makes sense, just someone who hasn't had that experience as well, and so, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1:Cause you, you've lived it and actually being able to. For me, understanding the science has helped me to understand the solutions. And then seeing it in my little you know scientific study of one, my daughter, seeing how much it helps her, then it's like, wow, what have I been beating my head against the wall for, you know, trying things like the naughty step and trying stuff that you know is traditional parenting, which doesn't work because that's not going to work with her brain. And now I understand why, you know. So it's been liberating.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I had someone who kind of knows us not loads, yeah, basically, tell me I should use the naughty step more and that that that yeah, kind of more more rod, if that makes sense too. And and I just was like, okay, thanks, you know. I yeah kind of more more rod if that makes sense too. Um, and and I just was like, okay, thanks, you know. I just kind of good to know, like just one of those, let it wash over me, because I was like I know that will not, I have. I actually did that six months, you know, like at the time it was, you know, probably a year ago, I was like I tried that a year ago and it didn't work and it was actually the opposite effect and it just it just thank you for your advice, but you have no idea, Like and just yeah, things that people think will work, just don't. And realizing that as parents of neurodivergent kids, that's okay and just kind of throwing.
Speaker 3:I just say a lot, especially to a lot of I'm trying to build a bit of a village of a community sense of people. And I say a lot of I'm trying to build a bit of a village of a community sense of people and, um, I say a lot to them. Like, just remember, you're rewriting the book, like you're, you're rewriting the quote unquote rule book because the current one doesn't work. So what works for?
Speaker 1:you is good. Um, I spoke to a lovely mom the other day. She's written a book called the autistic mom and it's uhistic Mom and it's. I did a review of it with her and she said you know who says we have to do all these things? You know who says we have to? And I thought, you know, I said to myself, and I've lived a very unconventional life and I've done pretty much, you know what I've wanted to do. When I've wanted to do it, moved countries, done what you know, I, you know, but it's, it's worked for me, but I agree, like it's like, and I think, neurodiverse kids and parents, it's like you know what we don't fit normal, you know. So let us be us and that's not gonna, you know, follow some sort of manual or whatever. You know our brains are wired to. You know, do things that are exciting, do things that are new, and you know why would we sit on a naughty step? You know, honestly, yeah, yeah, I mean it's well, I can imagine, Greer.
Speaker 1:I said we were going to only speak for 30 minutes to align by your podcasting rules and, oh my God, we've almost hit an hour. I had a feeling we might have a lot of things to talk about I know.
Speaker 3:I just realized I covered up the time and then I just thought, oh, looked at my little clock flash and I thought, oh, we've been.
Speaker 1:We've been way over the time, Um, so Time flies when you're having fun and I have to say this has been an absolutely fantastic um conversation and it has you know, you are definitely a kindred spirit and I think you know our, our, our podcasts, uh, atone to that as well. I know you have a final question for me as well and I have a final question for you. Do you want to go?
Speaker 3:first Yep, so I like to end my podcast with asking the question what do you want the world to know about neurodiverse people?
Speaker 1:We are normal and you know that is the biggest thing I can say. It's you know, we are normal and it's just sometimes that you know some of the structures in life like schools and workplaces and stuff like that, they are very regimented and they might not be the right way to do things, so they don't work that well for us and we need to be have make adjustments made. But, honestly, we are as normal as a neurotypical person and you know, a big shout out to everyone You're not alone, there's lots of us. 20% of the world is neurodiverse, okay, and some of the greatest thinkers and greatest creators I mean the list is endless have been and will continue to be neurodiverse.
Speaker 1:So this is, you know, this is who I am, this is who my daughter is, and you know we should be proud of it. And you know, not feel alone and not feel ashamed, and I think that would be. You know we should be proud of it and you know, not feel alone and not feel ashamed, and I think that would be. You know I remember a time I worked, you know, in HIV in California, when it was, you know, very stigmatized in San Francisco, and I also worked in Africa when it was very stigmatized, and now being gay isn't as stigmatized. I know there still are problems, but you know it's on Strictly Come Dancing, and I think neurodiversity is going that way too. We are all special, wonderful people, and our differences are what makes us special. It would be boring if we were all the same, and so, yeah, that would be my mission, I guess, and my passion.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, I agree, if we were all the same, it would be boring, it would just be blah um, and I I would say neurodiverse people bring color into the world, um, in many ways. So, yes, thank you for for sharing, for sharing that and mine's a bit longer.
Speaker 1:Apologies, but I like to give, but at least we both have like a standard. I like to ask my my guests what are their three top tips that they can give the listeners that they could put in their back pockets and take away from them from our lengthy conversation today.
Speaker 3:So, yeah, my three top tips are I don't know if they're all tip tips, but this is what I say I guess I should say. The first one is you're not alone. There is someone who is going through, you know maybe not word for word, the exact same thing, but going through the same situation, and there are people who have, who are, you know, one step, two step, 10 steps ahead of you and so, yeah, just you're not alone, and just to ask questions is totally okay. I think that's kind of. I don't know if that's two tips or not, but yeah, just the idea that you're not alone.
Speaker 3:The second is I think about we all have a voice, and to just encourage you to find your voice, if that's, you know, and it looks different for everyone, I think, you know, for someone I've interviewed previously, they're like my voice was in writing, so I don't verbally say a lot, but I write a lot and I can write really good emails, and so that was how you know she's now written a book. But she was saying like that's. She actually said to the school like I actually don't, I can't do face-to-face, but I can do emails. Could we set a time where we just have an email conversation back and forth, you know, and, and so, yeah, and that really helped me think through, like, yeah, find your voice and um, where, whatever that looks like, you know that idea that it doesn't have to be necessarily verbal.
Speaker 3:Um, and then my last tip I've been thinking about this because I knew you'd warned me that this isn't and I thought, oh, three. But the last one is to have fun. I think it's very stressful advocating for your child, advocating for others, but there's also joy, you know, connections with your child, and the idea that they're on this journey too, and so don't forget that there is just you, I guess. And so the idea that, yeah, just kind of have fun, and I don't like to tell people how to have fun, but I always just think, like you know how to have fun, think of yourself when you were 10, what was fun when you were 10, and go do it, because it's likely your child will enjoy it too, you know, or an element of it. So, yeah, those are kind of the three things I think I would share.
Speaker 1:Those are great, great three things to share, and I really have enjoyed today sharing our podcast together. It's been an absolute pleasure.
Speaker 3:Yes, yeah, oh yeah, I'm very aware that. Yeah, like you said at the start, it'd be 30 minutes and we are now very, very far from that. So thank you for having me on yours and just being willing to collab together on this podcast.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening. Send Parenting Tribe. If you haven't already, please click on the link in the show notes to join us in the private Send Parenting WhatsApp community. It's been wonderful to be able to communicate with everyone in the community and for us to join together to help each other to navigate challenges and to also celebrate successes. Wishing you and your family a really good week ahead, thank you, you, you, you.