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SEND Parenting Podcast
Welcome to the Send Parenting Podcast. I'm your neurodiverse host, Dr Olivia Kessel, and, more importantly, I am a mother to my wonderfully neurodivergent daughter, Alexandra, who really inspired this podcast.
As a veteran in navigating the world of neurodiversity, I have uncovered a wealth of misinformation, alongside many answers and solutions that were never taught to me in medical school or in any of the parenting handbooks.
Each week on this podcast, I will be bringing the experts to your ears to empower you on your parenting crusade.
SEND Parenting Podcast
When educators and parents work together with WITH Lynn How of Positive Young Mind & Izzy Felton, host of the SEND Network Podcast
The SEND Parenting Podcast joins forces with the SEND Network Podcast to explore the transformative power that emerges when parents and educators collaborate effectively for neurodiverse children, featuring Lynn Howe who brings unique insight as both a SENCO and parent of a neurodivergent child. We delve into how:
• Children frequently mask difficulties at school, causing disconnect between home and school experiences
• The EHCP process remains challenging, even for those with insider knowledge
• Regular check-ins and addressing concerns early prevent escalation to crisis points
• The magic formula of letting go
• Support networks provide validation and practical strategies for both parents and professionals
Positive Young Minds
Join us in the private SEND Parenting WhatsApp community by clicking the link in the show notes. It's been wonderful to communicate with everyone in the community and join together to help each other navigate challenges and celebrate successes.
www.sendparenting.com
Welcome to the Send Parenting Podcast. I'm your neurodiverse host, dr Olivia Kessel, and, more importantly, I'm mother to my wonderfully neurodivergent daughter, alexandra, who really inspired this podcast. As a veteran in navigating the world of neurodiversity in a UK education system, I've uncovered a wealth of misinformation, alongside many answers and solutions that were never taught to me in medical school or in any of the parenting handbooks. Each week on this podcast, I will be bringing the experts to your ears to empower you on your parenting crusade.
Speaker 1:In today's episode, we are going to do something a little bit different and quite special. We are going to collaborate with a SEND Network podcast which focuses on empowering SEND professionals to explore how powerful change can happen when parents such as you listeners on the SEND Parenting podcast and professionals who listen on the SEND Network Podcast can come together in partnership. I'm going to be joined by two wonderful guests Izzy Felton, who is host of the SEND Network Podcast, which supports SEND professionals across the UK, and then our special guest, lynn Howe, who's not only a SENCO, she's also a parent of a neurodiverse child, so she brings a really unique dual perspective, navigating the systems from both sides and advocating for emotionally intelligent practices in schools through her platform Positive Young Mind. Before we dive in, though, I'm going to play you the intro to the Send Network podcast, so you know what they're all about.
Speaker 2:Hello everyone, welcome back to the Send Network podcast, a termly series brought to you by the Send Network. If you haven't heard of us before, we're a digital community for Send practitioners to connect and collaborate. If you want to find out more, head over to send-networkcouk, where you can register for free and join the conversation.
Speaker 1:So welcome Izzy and Lynn. It is such a pleasure to have you on this podcast where we're having a collaborative podcast actually today, where we're going to be exploring the transformative power of parents and educators God forbid working together and the magic that can happen there. But you know, I host the SEND Parenting Podcast and Izzy hosts the SEND Network Podcast. And before we dive in today's conversation, let's each tell a little bit about our respective podcasts and then we'll hear from Lynn, who brings the unique perspective of being not only a neurodiverse parent but also a SENCO. So I'll start myself.
Speaker 1:My name is Dr Olivia Kessel and I host the SEND Parenting Podcast. I'm a medical doctor, I'm dyslexic and potentially have ADHD, and I have a wonderfully teenage daughter who has both of those things, and it was really her struggles with both at home and in education that inspired me to start the podcast. And each week we bring experts, parents send experts who can help, inform and empower us as we navigate our parenting journey of our wonderfully wired children, which is challenging at the best of times. So it is a pleasure to work on this collaboration with you and Izzy. Can you tell us a little bit about the SEND Network and what your vision is and what the goal is for that podcast.
Speaker 2:Yeah, of course. So I'm Izzy. I'm the host of the SEND Network podcast, which is a podcast for SEND co-workers, send practitioners, teachers just a sort of short, 30, 40 minute long episode each every two weeks, all just about different strategies for things to do with SEND. So we've had podcast episodes on ADHD, dyslexia, about being a SENCO. So I guess that's why we're collaborating today really is because we're really focused on practitioners and people working in schools and helping them. You know, help shape their practice, and you guys talk about parents and it from the parenting perspective. So it's nice to sort of collaborate and explore that together.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's nice to bring those two worlds together, because that really is where the magic happens and that's where Lynn comes in. Who's going to be our kind of joint guest today alongside with ourselves, is because you straddle both of those worlds You're a parent and you're a Senko. So if anyone gets the duality of this, you do. So. Tell us a little bit about yourself, lynn.
Speaker 3:Well, it's been a bit of a journey. So I've been in education for 25 years now and originally I was going to be a head teacher, so I went up and did all those qualifications but definitely SEND is where it's at and that's where my heart lies. And when I became a single parent I was like, oh no, I can't possibly Lack of flexible working opportunities for women particularly, and single parents, et cetera in education meant that I had to kind of rethink things a little bit, which is another podcast, probably Lack of flexible working opportunities. But yes, so I thought, well, sencoing is going to be for me. So I became a SENCO, loved it and haven't looked back from that. Really going to be for me. So I became a SENCO, loved it and, you know, haven't looked back from that really, and currently I'm one day a week SENCOing in school because I'm also freelance over lockdown.
Speaker 3:The website wwwpositiveyoungmind was born and, yeah, supporting families, children, educator, well-being. And then I started the Swery SENCO, which has got over 10,000 Senkos in it as well. So I make a lot of webinars, support Senkos, but also with my own son who was diagnosed with dyslexia a few years ago and is working more than two years behind. I know the process, I thought right, I know what to do, I can get all this sorted quickly, and of course it wasn't very quick. And I'm finding that I have got, even with the knowledge and understanding of the system, the same issues that many SEND parents are facing as well. So, yes, it's been challenging.
Speaker 1:What's interesting, lynn, because there really there can be that divide between parents and professionals and that struggle which you definitely you know you're seeing it from, you're able to put both hats on, which must be a bit chaotic, I would imagine, but also enlightening. Can you share with us some of the common barriers that you would say, I guess, professionals feel as barriers to collaboration with parents?
Speaker 3:I think overall. I mean SENCOs that I speak to on my networks are overwhelmed and I've not spoken to one SENCO who's gone. Oh yeah, my job's really easy. So we all know that education right now is a massive has massive difficulties. So we are navigating a broken system with no resources and no money. And the LAs don't have any money either, so I can kind of see it from their perspective as well, even though they are quite frustrating. So overall, yep, just the resources and the time and the stretch. Then and post lockdown, there's been so many more children with additional needs coming through. So, yeah, we are at a stalemate. Maybe we could say because it's not getting any better. And I say to people when they ask me you know what's going to happen within the next five years? I'm like, oh, some sort of implosion, I think. But I kind of feel it needs to implode before anything actually gets listened to and improves. So the high turnover of staff as well is a massive issue in schools. So recruitment and retention, that side of things.
Speaker 2:So yeah, overall there's massive issues yeah, definitely, and I want to spin it to Olivia now because you know on the send parenting podcast you are a send parent, so could you explain kind of what some of the barriers are in that parent's experience?
Speaker 1:yeah, absolutely, and you know it touches. You know it touches upon some of the things you said, lynn, as well, because you know there is a high turnover. You don't feel like you're heard, you don't have that point of contact. Sometimes your Senko is split among many different schools so you don't even know who they are, they are not empowered. And then you as a parent, you have to fight so hard for your child that you almost you become a warrior and you have to grow this thick skin and be able to just take a lot of oh no, no, he's fine or she's fine, or you know there's a lot of pushback to be heard, to be believed, and that develops into an almost PTSD kind of situation where then you go into every station, you know, with your guns blaring because you haven't been heard and you haven't been understood.
Speaker 1:And you know, as a mom, when something is wrong, and sometimes schools just don't validate that sometimes for you, until it gets so far down the path that then you're in a real crisis situation and you know you just, yeah, you're at your wits end. So that lack, and there can be this lack of transparency too. So maybe how your child behaves at school is very different to how they behave at home and that there isn't that communication, and we'll talk about that, you know, later in terms of how we can improve upon that. But so what they're seeing of your child isn't what you're seeing of your child and you're picking up the pieces. So I think you know those are and they're raw, you know, and also, as Lynn said, the Senkos are also. They're overworked, they're overtired, the system isn't working. So you've got two highly stressed individuals. You know that they're coming from a high cortisol, high stress perspective, and so I think that's what can make it really, really challenging.
Speaker 3:I mean, no one knows their child as much as a parent. And when I speak to parents I always say to them you know, the person that's going to advocate for your child is you. You are their biggest advocator, because restful in the world, as a SENCO, and many other SENCOs will probably agree with this no-transcript. So you know, it's just that massive issue of where do we put our resources. So yeah, massive challenge. But over the years I've spoken to all sorts of parents and sometimes they are lacking in communication skills themselves because of how they've been communicated with. And actually, if you break that down, they're actually communicating in the same way as everybody else. It's just that they communicate by shouting and that's their general way of communicating. So over the years I've managed to speak to parents at the school office, have gone oh no, we don't speak to them. But just because if you meet them where they are and seek to understand their perspectives and where they're coming from, then that relationship can be much better.
Speaker 1:And I'd say the same for parents too. If they can understand where the senko is coming from, understand the, the, where you know what what's on their plate, a little bit of understanding and compassion goes a long way yeah, I want to pick up on that as well, it's like something that comes up on on the podcast quite a lot is that the importance of you know like children are different at school to what they are like at home.
Speaker 2:So having that good communication with a parent is so key to like understanding a full, like the experience of a child in full.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, yeah, I mean, I have a example of that actually with my, with my daughter, because you know we'd had our EHCP review and they're like, oh, everything's fine, she's doing fine. And I'm like, no, she's, she's struggling socially. No, she looks fine on the playground. She looks fine on the playground and it got so bad her social what was going on socially that she wouldn't go to school. She just was refusing. And I, one day I, literally I dressed her, I forced her and I felt terrible as a mother that I did this. But I did and I was like I felt such guilt when I put her in that taxi to go and I was like you know what? I am never, ever doing that again. She's too old to have that done too, and I'm not addressing the issue of why she doesn't want to go to school.
Speaker 1:So I emailed the school and I said, listen, I know you don't think.
Speaker 1:I know you think this is you've listened to me and you said after a certain period of time we're going, constrained right now by other pupils and we don't have the bandwidth I'm like I'm sorry we're not coming back to school until you can support me with this, because she might be masking and doing okay at school, but at home she is having a complete inability to go to school.
Speaker 1:And, in fairness, they said, mrs Kessel, we didn't realize how much this was impacting her, we didn't understand what was going on at home and they stepped up immediately. They stepped in and they put a lot of different structures in place, including doing friendship groups with the girls and stuff like that, because it's a tricky time when you're a teenager and girls and you're neurodiverse, it is hard, and what they've done has been absolutely and they put her into ELSA and supported her and it's gone from, instead of evolving, into where she's not going to school at all complete school refusal. It's now we're now one year past that and she's fitting in socially, she's got a good network. They've put, they've just they really we worked together. They heard me and now my daughter is happy to go to school and has actually progressed, instead of it becoming a real sticking point, whereas if I hadn't communicated and if I had waited until after the Easter holidays, I don't know if I would have gotten her back into school.
Speaker 3:Quite frankly, I've come across so many children in primary school with anxiety and I can just fast forward several years because the children who are coming through with those issues at school at the moment they are sort of year eight, year nine school avoiders and I can just see how it's all going to play out.
Speaker 3:Which is why, of course, at primary school that early intervention is really key and I don't think schools get it and understand the home issues. They don't understand that children are masking in school and bottling it all up and then just letting their parents have it basically at home and they're like two different children basically. So even though a child is presenting at school you know in inverted commas perfectly it doesn't mean that that is the end of the issue. So a little bit more delving, even sort of school nurses, ehcp applications were necessary because when they're at the school avoider they're not in school because they're avoiding it, then they should have an EHCP applications when necessary because when they're at the school avoider they're not in school because they're avoiding it, then they should have an EHCP to help them transition back to school and help the school have enough money and resources in order to do that as well.
Speaker 2:So it's a very big issue at the moment, and that one particularly is not getting any smaller, and Lynne, you know we've said that you are both a SENCO and a parent, so what have your experiences been as a parent, trying to get things like EHCPs and working with schools?
Speaker 3:So, first of all, in my county, handily, they don't recognise dyslexia as a thing. So that was the first barrier. You are kidding me, you are kidding me, I'm not. So I knew that obviously you don't get a dyslexia diagnosis on the NHS, generally anyway. So I knew I'd have to put my hand in my pocket and luckily I was in the situation where I could do that. But so many families have not got that facility just to be able to get a private diagnosis of what they need. With the waiting times obviously as well, that is very, very frustrating for them.
Speaker 3:So, um, I think you know, with the whole post-lockdown, got him back to school because he was foundation stage in in lockdown and you know I was thinking, oh, he's not picking up the reading, don't worry, you know it'll be fine once he's back in school. But yeah, it just didn't happen. And then he had, like, when he became a bit older, had all those classic um difficulties with the reversals and etc. So, yes, I went from there, really, got got the diagnosis, and so it wasn't until junior school really that things started getting into place. So he's in year four now, but I know full well that if I didn't go for the HGP in year four. It's too late. Because I'm interested really his transition to secondary school. I want a choice of secondary schools for him and he deserves that because he's more than two years behind in reading and writing. So he deserves that choice and as a family we deserve that choice. And 10 years ago it wouldn't have been an issue and he would have gotten his EHCP and everything would have been fine. But I know that if you start in year four you won't get anywhere until year six quite often, unless needs are really really significant. So I knew I had to start that process early and we are still going down it.
Speaker 3:I've done mediation so they have agreed to assess because, mediation wise, I just sat in the meeting and said you know and I know the laws on my side, so you can, we can go to tribunal if you want over this, but you know that you'll be wasting your money because it will be on my side. So again, after the tribunal, they refused to assess. But then, once I sorry, after mediation, they refused to assess. Then once I, um, sorry, after mediation, they refused to assess. But then, after I filled in the tribunal paperwork, suddenly they rolled over and went oh, actually actually maybe, maybe we can assess.
Speaker 3:So they just try and fob you off at every, every opportunity, and the parents forums that I've been in are the same, and I'm lucky in that I've got the, the literacy skills and the knowledge and understanding of the system in order to get the ball rolling and get things going. But so many people don't have that and even I'm finding it difficult with all that knowledge and understanding. I've got 14 EHCPs through over the last four or five years for other children but, yeah, I'm still finding it difficult to get my own sons through.
Speaker 1:So there we go is, which is just so mind-boggling. You know, I felt the same way too, like I'm a medical doctor, I'm intelligent and it almost it floored me. I didn't understand it. It seemed like, you know, there's just underhanded practices that can happen. You know what I mean. And even with understanding the law that the barriers it's just, yeah, as you say, it's a, it's a and it's you know. It's interesting because my daughter goes to it used to be just dyslexic, but now it's more than that school and you see, kids who start, who go there, their reading levels get up to normal, they're, you know, they gain ground, you know. So getting that specialist kind of intervention for your children when they need it is so important.
Speaker 3:So these years that these things stretch out, your child is floundering during that. Absolutely, and I've recently done an event with a reading pen company through my network and all the resources that they have suggested and all of the strategies that they have suggested in our CPD that we did. They're things that can be easily implemented into primary schools and then if we have all these in our classrooms as a given, as normal, particularly for children with dyslexia, there's no reason why they can't say, catch up to their peers or make good progress.
Speaker 1:Basically, there's a school nearby me and I had the Senko on the podcast like a while ago and she said you know, we teach all children like they're dyslexic good.
Speaker 3:I was like how clever is that? That's good for everybody, isn't it?
Speaker 2:you know yeah yeah, really good, okay well maybe that will take us uh maybe that can actually lead us on to the sort of next bit of focusing on the positive. Um. So you know, much as it can be a frustrating experience, there are maybe little pockets sometimes where things do go right and everyone aligns and maybe can help out a child. So I mean I'm going to open the floor to both of you Is there any times where you've noticed there's an effective alignment between professionals and parents?
Speaker 3:For me, I feel it's the children who have come to school in foundation stage with obvious difficulties, such as physical difficulties, so they've already got like a speech and language therapist, they've already got an OT, they've already got sort of specialist teacher behind them, they've already got the NHS in their corner providing the equipment and providing everything that was required. And those go very easily. You know, the specialists come in, they bring equipment, everything gets adjusted, we do the recommendations, everything on section F of the HGP is ticked off and they fly through school with no problems. So that is the best case scenario that I've seen, I think.
Speaker 1:I think for me and I'm going to take it to a more basic level like I think it's when you have teachers that are you know and SENCOs that are willing to collaborate with you and you know like, so you know, you have their email address and you can actually say look, my daughter's had, you know, just in the morning and it, you know, say, my daughter's had a really bad morning, she's really struggling to get into school.
Speaker 1:Can you put some things into place for her during the day? They'll maybe meet her at the front and you know having that connection so that the teacher knows where my daughter's at and then, even if she's, or if she comes back from school sometimes and it's been a great day emailing as well, not overloading them with emails, but also doing the positive, not just the negative, and so that then you both have a window into how your child's doing. That isn't just that 10 minutes I hate the teacher parent-teacher meetings which are like 10 minutes and you just you don't get it. But being on the same page with your education, whether that's the SENCO or the teacher, and then knowing where your child's at at home and you knowing how they're at at school is to me that's where the magic happens and that's where actually you make progress or can put things in place to help.
Speaker 3:I'd agree with that. I'd say key adults that are the right key adult is like gold dust in schools. And key adults that are the right key adult is like gold dust in schools. And recruiting support staff is obviously difficult at the moment. But with the right support staff, with the right children and therefore very good relationship with support staff and and parents, then actually it kind of runs itself as well because all the communication is there. They've got a very good relationship. They'll chat in a friendly way, you know, it's all really really good. So getting those right people and keeping them in school is really important.
Speaker 2:I feel like the theme here is sort of there has to be a willingness from all sides to really want to collaborate on it, but sometimes maybe there might be someone that hasn't got that willingness. So like, have you got any advice maybe of I don't know if I mean it could come from both sides a parent or a teacher of SENCO? If there's someone that isn't willing in that group of people, whether it's, you know, a social worker or a speech and language therapist what would you suggest to do to really try and get people on board? It's a bit of a tricky question, I feel like that.
Speaker 3:I've got an example where senko is often the middle person for a buffer between the school and the parent. And transparency is really important in schools and sometimes you come across schools that are not particularly transparent of how they're spending the money for, for example, you know if the school's in a deficit budget, you know you need to be clear as a parent where that money is going and you can request a costed provision map to find out where that extra top-up funding is going. That is absolutely fair enough. So in a situation where a parent has not been very happy with the school and I've had to go back to the school and say you know parents not very happy because of X, y, z, we need to show them where you know where the money's going. And then we've had sort of a little rethink about how things are working and then I've been able to go back to the parent and say, look, this is happening, this is happening, this is happening and sort of smoothing the waters.
Speaker 3:There are situations where this, this parent in particular completely fell out with the head teacher. So I was the the only person that they would speak to in school. So I had an excellent relationship with the parents and and it functioned because of that. But if there is no relationship, if the relationship between school and home breaks down completely, that is when there are severe difficulties.
Speaker 3:So any way that those relationships can be built, I mean I find in my experience that getting in before there's a need is really, really important, and I've got 10 children at the moment so I'm one day a week in the school. So that means that I do have the capacity to sort of do check ins and see them on the playground and say how's it going. But I know a busy Sankara secondary school wouldn't necessarily have that option. So getting in beforehand is excellent or having a key person in order to do that would be good. So delegating that to an assistant SENCO if possible, or support staff, just constant check-ins. So parents feel listened to, because when they feel listened to and there are actionable things happening as a result of that, that is when they feel the happiest, I think, when they can see things moving forward.
Speaker 1:And I think you know there's also times where it just doesn't work and I can use my example of that where you know you reach a wall, like for me, like I put my daughter into a private school, thinking OK, smaller classroom sizes, she can get more help, stretch myself to the limit to be able to pay for that.
Speaker 1:And then they were saying, oh no, she needs more help. But they weren't actually understanding what her issues were or didn't tell me about an EHCP or anything like that. And then, as a flip comment, the headmistress said oh, you know well, your daughter's not going to stay at this school beyond, you know, year five, because you know she won't be able to cope. And I'm like then why is she here now in year three if she's not going to? You know, you're just going to take my money for two more years and she's not getting the support. And you know I was like. So I went looking for another school and when I, you know, told them about my daughter, no other school really wanted her, you know I was having doors shut in my face. And then they're like oh well, if you stay, maybe we could do an EHCP. And I'm not from this country, nor have I had a child with needs before. I didn't even know what an EHCP I'm like. What is an EHCP and why are you offering this to me now? We've been here since we've been in nursery, you know.
Speaker 1:So total, it was a complete and I said and I had already sent an email saying we will not be coming back to give a term notice, and I was a week shy of that. She almost wanted to get me on the finances of it and I didn't know where I was going to go from there. And then they introduced me to the dyslexic specialist school, the Unicorn, but there was no way forward with that school. And so I think there's also a time as a parent that you have to realize that this is not the right situation, you can't find the right support and that you need to find somewhere else.
Speaker 1:The sad thing is sometimes it's real, and it was with me, as I know from other moms as well very hard to find somewhere else, and especially if you don't have your EHCP, then you've got to self-fund that somewhere else. And where do you get that money to self-fund that independent specialist school? So it can be really tricky when you do hit those walls, and so I think it's really important for parents, when they're looking for schools, to have those conversations. And you know, the earlier you can have this or the earlier you can bring it up with schools and with teachers and stuff like that. It's hard because you don't there's no manual for this and you don't know that your child has these needs, and so it's all very confusing. But if the environment isn't right, moving from that environment is sometimes the only option that you have.
Speaker 3:I'd agree with that, and you've got to feel happy that the school wants your child there, absolutely. And we get consultations through SNCOs, get them through Cross-Sedesk all the time. Lots and lots and lots of them. And I would say that we're happy to take any child as long as we've got the resources to fund them effectively, because otherwise we are failing that child and we don't like to do that.
Speaker 3:And I think the difficulty at the moment in terms of specialist provision is that there are no specialist spaces. And I think in my county at the moment we've got a lot of schools who support moderate learning difficulties but they are changing to severe learning difficulties because actually all the severe, a lot of severe learning difficulties are in mainstream now because there's no space for them. And there's moderate learning difficulties which should they should be in specialist settings to support them, but they're trying to change them over back to the mainstream schools to make space. So that's what's happening in my county at the moment, which is challenging as well. But we overhaul is needed in more building, more support, and I think at government level now they're kind of realizing that shutting all the special schools has had a massive knock-on effect and actually we need to do something a little bit more radical in order to have more spaces for children who just will just thrive in a different environment, because it's not about surviving, it's about thriving. And you know it's not good enough for these young people.
Speaker 1:It's that misconception that everyone should be taught together and that that thereby makes everyone equal. Well, that's not true, because not all kids can learn that way and so it's, and I think that's the fundamental problem is that they want to be equal so everyone can learn in the same environment. It's just not the case with with neurodiverse kids, and you cause the problems that we're seeing now, with burnout, with, you know, with all the anxiety, with all the different issues and also the failure for that child to reach its potential. So they need to build more schools. They need to say, okay, not everyone can be taught in the same way, agreed, but I would argue actually, that neurotypical children also. We need to change education, but that's a whole, nother podcast.
Speaker 3:I would say as well that a lot of schools have enhanced provisions now and they are perfect, kind of go between between specialist and mainstream, because they've got their specialisms and they can support a wide variety of children, um, but also they have the opportunity of meeting back up to mainstream where appropriate, so the children who are kind of on the on the cusp of needing specialist education, and that's a perfect situation. So I think more nurture support in schools and more enhanced provisions would be a way to go, because the buildings are already there and we've got a low birth rate at the moment, so we know that there's less children coming through reception. So perhaps in the future we'll have a lot more capacity in schools to be able to do that.
Speaker 1:But there's one thing that I like, because we visited one mainstream school and they said, oh, we, you know, we'll, we'll take with my HP. Oh, we'll take your daughter out for English and for math. They'll only be 10 kids. And I'm like who's going to be running that? Oh, it's an unqualified TA. I'm like, really, You're most difficult children who have struggles with learning, You're going to put an unqualified TA. And then I said, well, what about when they're in history and French and science? Oh no, then they'll just be back in the mainstream with 40 kids or 35 kids, and I'm like that doesn't quite work for me.
Speaker 3:You know. I mean. Mean there are situations, of course, where there's an HLSA who has possibly more skills in that department than the teacher. So there are instances where that is a better fit, definitely, but overall every child deserves to be taught by a qualified teacher, because that's the kind of the point of getting the qualification.
Speaker 1:Um initial teacher training.
Speaker 3:That's a whole, another, another situation to discuss the SEND training on that, because that's not adequate, but agreed. And yeah, and with the turnover of staff, I'd also say that a lot, a lot of support staff have been at schools for maybe 10 or more years and they are excellent in their field and and you're probably getting a better deal in some circumstances by having the HLSA teaching. But, yeah, absolutely agree that a qualified teacher is needed for all children, because that's the minimum that you'd expect.
Speaker 2:We spoke about a manual just now, olivia, which would be great to have. Maybe not a manual, but maybe we could look at a magic formula in parent professional collaboration. So what do you think is needed, or those key ingredients like, for successful collaboration?
Speaker 1:I think the first step is to forget what's happened in the past. So start with a blank sheet of paper. You know, I say this to my daughter sometimes when we've had a blow up or whatever. I'm like, all right, that's in the past, now, now we're going to rip off that piece of paper, crumple it up and now we have a nice clean piece of paper. So let go of all the and I know it's hard, but all of the past hurts, the traumas, the fights you've had. You've just got to let it go. And you've really got to let it go. And you've really got to let it go. You know, go, run, go do yoga, do whatever. But you have to come with an open mind, you know.
Speaker 1:And then put yourself in your teacher's shoes, put yourself in your Senko's shoes and think about their role and how hard it is for them. You know, and then communicate. That's, you know, so key. You know, communicate with both of them. Use, you know. Use things like I understand where you're coming from. You you must be, you know. Use they call it active listening. You know where you can listen and project so that you're both your, your Senko and your teacher are being heard and then sharing how, what you're feeling. So not being accusatory, but rather saying I'm feeling like my child isn't being supported I know how hard it is for you to support so and that immediately changes the dynamic of the conversation. So already you're starting to be on the same page and then you know both of you focusing on and this is really what the teacher wants and the SENCO and what the parent wants is what's best for that child, and that's your core kind of you know thing that ties you together with each other. And then, if you can communicate and work with each other, I think that's where the magic formula happens.
Speaker 1:And it's not going to be easy. There's going to be difficult things and there's going to be pushback. My daughter's going on a residential and she's never been away from home ever and they're putting her in a room with her arch enemy and I'm like, why are you doing this? It's a recipe for disaster, right? And you know they've explained to me that no, mrs Kessel, we can't. We can't change this situation. Okay, and the reason is because there's not enough girls going, whatever, and it's it's going to be the way that it is, and okay. So I've expressed my concerns. They've explained to me why they can't change it, and I'm I understand that and I've explained it to my daughter as well, and you know what I said. They're aware of it now, so they know where you're coming from, they know the conflict and they can help you with it. And you know what. You will both grow from this.
Speaker 1:But instead of just getting really angry, like another mom said oh, I can't believe they're doing this and just getting angry with myself and maybe going on a WhatsApp group and expressing my anger on the WhatsApp group, that's not the way to handle it. You know. It's understanding where they're coming from, communicating and then trying to find the best solution. It might not be the perfect solution there are no perfect solutions but finding a midway ground that you guys can work on together and I think that's when the magic happens. You know, and I feel much better about the residential. My daughter feels like she's going to be supported and there will be difficulties, but it's a small example, but I think that's that's what we have to work towards.
Speaker 3:Agreed, and I think from a school's perspective and teachers in general, then thencos don't have any specific training on leadership skills, for example. It's education is one of those situations where you apply for a job, you get a job and then you turn up on the first day and go what am I meant to be doing? So I mean, in the medical community you wouldn't get that, would you? You'd kind of hope you had some training before you started the open heart surgery. I'm obviously in more of extreme, extreme situation there.
Speaker 1:But education, well, it's funny, lynn. I started in Johannesburg General Hospital where it's like see one do one teach one. So they're like, they're like, you know okay.
Speaker 3:Olivia, now it's your turn to put in a chest drain. I'm like, excuse me, so I know what you're feeling like. I mean, it's not quite as life or death as that, but yeah, it's got its own, its own issues and I feel certainly that those soft skills, teaching those in terms of initial teacher training, the SENCOs, they're just not taught at all. I meanQH we did a little bit of my head teacher qualification about that sort of thing, but the SENCO training I did did not involve any support for parents, it was all theory-based. I know that the new MPQs coming through so it should help that in terms of the curriculum has been improved. But at the same time SENkos don't have those soft skills.
Speaker 3:Sometimes senkos are quite young themselves and don't necessarily have the life experience. They don't have the teaching experience. Because when I became a senko I had sort of 20 odd years of trial and error with different children in different classes, so I could automatically rattle off five or six different strategies that people could try, or five or six different ideas for parents to try. Becoming a parent helps as well in terms of empathy as well. So with the with the empathy side of things, I'm because teachers and SENCOs didn't necessarily struggle at school themselves, and that's the majority, and I know there are some SENCOs and teachers who are neurodiverse themselves or have their own needs and obviously can put themselves in the shoes of people much better.
Speaker 3:But me, as an example, I didn't struggle at school particularly and I think it meant I learned the hard way about having those empathy skills for parents and it took me a good sort of 15 years of teaching myself to kind of understand where people are coming from, because it was never made explicit to me.
Speaker 3:So I would say that those soft skills definitely needed to be taught to to teachers and and same codes and all all people working in schools of just how to how to speak to parents, how to empathize with them, and also in training, just getting you know the sensory bus in, just so you understand what it's like to have autism and have those sensory overloads. And that was a very humbling experience for me to actually make it a lot more real in the sorts of issues that children are facing day to day in our classrooms or having dyslexia, cpd, where the words are moving up and down the page and you can see through your eyes what it is like to try and read when you have dyslexia. So I think a bit of empathy training would go a long way in our schools as well yeah, I've.
Speaker 2:That's just made me think about I have a friend who's just recently qualified as a teacher and she does admit that the bit that she finds scariest is talking to parents. So it is right you are right that soft them soft skills of understanding how to speak to to parents. So it is right you are right that soft them soft skills of understanding how to speak to parents. You know empathy is so important.
Speaker 1:And I think it goes the other way around as well. As parents, you need to do the same thing with teachers and with schools. You need to have that empathy and soft skills as well.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean, I've spoken to parents before. I mean, jokingly, we always end up laughing. But they're like, well, I'm just going to come in and tell them how it is. I'm like, well, we'll just have to ban you from the premises if you do that. You know that, don't you? So you know it's all said and done, but there's a message under there.
Speaker 2:So, looking forward, how do you think we can strengthen these partnerships? I sort of feel like we've already covered a lot of this, but you know, it'd be nice to sort of see what parents wish professionals knew and then what professionals wish parents understood.
Speaker 1:I think you know what I think what parents wish is that they're heard and that the professionals will trust what they're saying and I think this goes for education and with healthcare is that you know, and we touched on it already you know a mother knows her child and if they can just be believed and validated, that would go a long way to creating that kind of synergy. Because they are, you know, I've experienced it a lot of my listeners have, where they're just not listened to. They're said oh, you're overprotective, you're a bossy mom, you're this, you're that, you know, it's just because you don't have any boundaries at home, you're too gentle of a parent. The list goes on and on, and so that really puts you on the back foot. So, being validated that your concerns and that you know your child, I think that's the first, most important way to strengthen the partnership.
Speaker 3:I think, coming from the other direction, definitely, and knowing that SENCO time is sparse and we have huge case loads, definitely, and it's that instant availability expectation. Of course someone should be available to talk to a parent if there's an issue or a crisis, but it can't necessarily be the SENCO. So also trying to remember that we are trying to do the best for your child under extremely difficult circumstances. So that is another key thing as well.
Speaker 1:It's that understanding, isn't it? It's understanding where each is coming from.
Speaker 3:I mean, I know there's a lot of support out there now with social media forums. There's so many Facebook groups for different issues and I think there's a lot of solidarity in those. I think sometimes there can be negative places, but at the same time for parents and also for people who work in schools, just knowing that they're not the only one with these issues is really key thing as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's huge that you're not alone. I think, both for Senkos and parents, I would imagine yeah absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 3:I've heard people come up to me in cluster meetings and go and say that your Facebook group has just made me feel that I'm not alone, because my group is about Senko wellbeing. But it's not the sugarcoating of it, because other Senko groups are kind of more practical, like let's make the best of it, but mine, you're allowed to have a little sweary rant, so that is appealing to a lot of people, because sometimes you do just want to swear with a situation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean that highlights how important it is to have these sort of networks as well. Like I mean you've just said about yours being sweary, ours is more. The send network is a bit more uh, I guess people yeah, people, professional, or maybe people go in. I'd like to think, uh, for a bit of advice. You know, see what strategies they strategies they can come up with. And yeah, it's just that community feeling of knowing that you're not alone and that you're not going through it on your own. I remember I was at the Ted Send show when I first started working on the Send network and I met a lady that worked in an international school. She was the only Senko in her school, which is quite common, and she said she felt like a lot of the time she's the only one sort of advocating for her students with send. So it's nice having that you know community where actually like, even if they're in a complete different countries, other people doing this and having the same battles?
Speaker 3:yeah, definitely, and in a, in a, in a primary school. If you're not part of a trust, as well, it can be can be very lonely because you just don't have anybody to turn to. And I think, although social media has got its negatives, if you're a SENCO who hasn't embraced social media to support you in your role, you are really missing out.
Speaker 1:It's interesting, it's the same with parents, like with the SEN parenting WhatsApp community. I have the amount of parents who say, oh my God, that's exactly what happened with my child. Oh, this is normal. Oh, because it normalizes it, right, you feel like you're the only one going through this. And to have other parents and then, oh, this worked for me or this resource helped me. It's more of a caring, nurturing environment.
Speaker 1:I don't let, not, not let, but nobody like it's not a bitching, moaning WhatsApp group. And there are those, especially when you're going to the EHCP, that are sometimes healthy to be on and to rant and rave about what's going on with a local authority. But there's also a time to step away from that. And then, you know, try and just collaborate and help other parents. And as you go along the journey, I find mothers very much want to help, pull up the other mothers in terms of, oh, I did this, this worked for me, and help each other, which is just a lovely, it's just a great feeling. It takes something that's really negative and can be quite solitary and soul destroying. It turns it into something positive and you can see where people can get to and it gives you hope.
Speaker 2:We've got to the end of the podcast, which is crazy. It's flown by. I always think that every episode, I think I could probably go for another half an hour hour, maybe a couple of days, but we want to sort of I mean, something that we do on the Send Network podcast is have three key takeaways from the episode what we, you know what we thought, any piece of advice that we want our listeners to sort of take away. As there's three of us, it might be good to give one each. So who wants to go first?
Speaker 1:Well, I can give one key takeaway. I think the key takeaway is that we are in this together, parents and educators. You can't take one away from the other. So best we get along and figure out how to do it together, because ultimately that benefits our child. And if we always, even in moments of frustration, think I want what's best for my child, working together is what's best for your child. So that would be my one takeaway.
Speaker 3:It's easier said than done. Yeah, relationships are key, aren't they? Definitely. And I would add on to that that transparency is also really key between parents and home, because parents are within their rights to demand where that money is going, and schools should really not gloss over the facts that they're not meeting the needs, particularly if it's on Section F. And schools should be going back to local authority for more funding if required, but they shouldn't fob the parents off and tell them stuff is happening when it isn't, because I know that happens. So you know, for those excellent relationships, then transparency is key, and if schools can't manage to do something because of something, then they need to be really open about that so they can have a dialogue about moving forward, not just say, oh no, it's happening. So I think lessons can be learned both sides there.
Speaker 2:So I feel like, from what you've both said today, the two words that pop into my head is sort of willingness and empathy, and for both of them I think you've got to remember that there is a child at the very center of all of this, that that needs support from you. Know the village around them. It takes a village, um, and they need that help. So it is like remembering that when you, you know in your work and being empathetic and being willing to help all sides need to have that. So that's sort of what I took away from what you guys said today.
Speaker 3:I think it blows my mind when I think about like one child that I'm supporting and the difficulties around that child. If I replicate that to every child with a difficulty in the country, my mind is completely blown.
Speaker 2:Yeah, don't, is completely blown?
Speaker 1:Yeah, don't think that way.
Speaker 2:I was going to say that's my circle of concern.
Speaker 1:And you know, for all the listeners out there, we'll have all the details about the SEND Parenting Podcast, the SEND Network and also a link to your fantastic Facebook page. I have a feeling that some SENCOs listening to this might want to get on there.
Speaker 3:And my blog as well. Positive Young Minds.
Speaker 1:Absolutely so. Thank you, this has been so much fun. It's been lovely doing a collaboration podcast.
Speaker 3:It's been great.
Speaker 1:And to have someone else asking the questions. It's been really different.
Speaker 2:No, it's been fun. Definitely yeah. I think we should be doing some more collaborations in the future.
Speaker 1:I would say excellent.
Speaker 3:Well, thank you guys thank you very much for inviting me.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening. Send parenting tribe if you haven't already, please click on the link in the show notes to join us in the private send parenting what's up community. It's been wonderful to be able to communicate with everyone in the community and for us to join us in the private Send Parenting what's Up community. It's been wonderful to be able to communicate with everyone in the community and for us to join together to help each other to navigate challenges and to also celebrate successes. Wishing you and your family a really good week ahead, you.