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SEND Parenting Podcast
Welcome to the Send Parenting Podcast. I'm your neurodiverse host, Dr Olivia Kessel, and, more importantly, I am a mother to my wonderfully neurodivergent daughter, Alexandra, who really inspired this podcast.
As a veteran in navigating the world of neurodiversity, I have uncovered a wealth of misinformation, alongside many answers and solutions that were never taught to me in medical school or in any of the parenting handbooks.
Each week on this podcast, I will be bringing the experts to your ears to empower you on your parenting crusade.
SEND Parenting Podcast
EP 128: Most children have multiple diagnosis with Lizzie Shearing and Liz Britton from Learning DNA
The gap between what neurodiverse children need and what traditional education provides continues to widen, leaving parents desperate for answers while waiting years for diagnoses and appropriate support. In this eye-opening conversation, Lizzie Shearing and Liz Britton share how Learning DNA's revolutionary approach is transforming outcomes for children with ADHD, autism, dyslexia, and other neurodevelopmental differences.
At the heart of their methodology is the recognition that most children don't fit neatly into diagnostic boxes. "I think what really struck me in my role as a SENCO was that there isn't really one child I've ever met that only has one difficulty," explains Lizzie, highlighting why the traditional siloed pathways to support often fail our most vulnerable learners. Their 360-degree assessment evaluates fourteen distinct learning skills, creating a comprehensive picture that prioritizes interventions based on individual needs rather than diagnostic labels.
One of the most fascinating revelations is how frequently visual processing difficulties are misdiagnosed as dyslexia. Lizzie shares how proper screening and intervention improved her own daughter's reading speed by 25% overnight through specialized glasses and vision therapy. This exemplifies Learning DNA's evidence-based approach, which looks beyond labels to identify and address the root causes of learning barriers.
The conversation explores their innovative therapeutic programs, including movement therapy using AI tracking technology, personalized learning programs, vision therapy, and auditory integration training. What makes their approach particularly powerful is how they bring together families, schools and specialists to create holistic support systems with practical strategies for both home and classroom environments.
For parents navigating the overwhelming journey of supporting a neurodiverse child, this episode offers both hope and practical guidance. Discover how understanding your child's complete learning profile – rather than chasing diagnoses – could be the key to unlocking their potential and transforming their educational experience. Could your child's learning challenges be different than you think?
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www.sendparenting.com
Welcome to the Send Parenting Podcast. I'm your neurodiverse host, Dr Olivia Kessel, and, more importantly, I'm mother to my wonderfully neurodivergent daughter, Alexandra, who really inspired this podcast. As a veteran in navigating the world of neurodiversity in a UK education system, I've uncovered a wealth of misinformation, alongside many answers and solutions that were never taught to me in medical school or in any of the parenting handbooks. Each week on this podcast, I will be bringing the experts to your ears to empower you on your parenting crusade. If you're looking for a safe space to connect with other parents navigating their neurodiverse journey, our private WhatsApp community offers support, insights and real conversations with like-minded parents who truly understand. Join the conversation today. You can find the link in the show notes.
Speaker 1:In today's episode, we are joined by Lizzie Shearing, founder of Learning DNA, and Liz Brighton, their head of business development. Together, they are transforming the landscape of neurodiverse education. We'll explore how Learning DNA's personalized approach, rooted in science, innovation and compassion, is helping children with ADHD, autism, dyslexia and dyspraxia thrive. From in-depth 360-degree assessments to targeted interventions like vision tracking and sensory support, they reveal how understanding a child's unique learning profile can really unlock their true potential. Whether you're a parent, an educator or simply passionate about inclusive education. This episode offers both inspiration and practical guidance for supporting neurodiverse learners.
Speaker 1:So welcome, Lizzie and Liz to the Send Parenting podcast. It is such a pleasure to have you both here today to talk about something that is really a difficult thing, I think, for myself and for all of my listeners is how to get the right support in education for our children. You know it's extremely challenging. It's not easy, both with kids in school and out of school, and especially with kids who have a neurodiverse profile, it can be really challenging to find out how to unlock that potential and how to really get them learning and engaged in learning today. So I'm really excited to unpick this topic today with both of you, and I know my listeners are going to be listening really astutely to this conversation because it's something that we struggle with day in and day out. But before we start, can I start with you, Lizzie, in terms of a little bit about your background and what led you really to founding LearningDNA?
Speaker 2:Of course. Yeah, thanks for having us. So I have been a teacher for 15 years. I was a qualified SENCO and I'm a specialist level seven dyslexia assessor and teacher. I've always been drawn, I think, to trying to enable young people and adults really to achieve their potential, no matter what it is that they find difficult. And so actually that is at the root of everything we do at Learning DNA. It's all about enabling people to overcome any barriers to learning and achieve their potential. That's the work I've always been in. I've always fallen into that kind of work. I do a bit of sports coaching as well for the same kind of reasons.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, learning DNA came about because I was a teacher and I was a SENCO and I could really feel the frustration from parents and children that it was very difficult to get a diagnosis of any kind.
Speaker 2:They, you know parents thought they needed to get a diagnosis of any kind. They, you know parents, thought they needed to get a diagnosis enabled to enable their children to get the support that they wanted um for them. And actually, obviously that isn't the case, but in in most schools, but actually the very siloed um pathways to diagnostic assessments are very challenging for families, you know, I think what really struck me in my role as a SENCO was that there isn't really one child I've ever met that only has one difficulty. That fits neatly into a diagnostic box, so to speak. So I really wanted to create something really special which enabled parents to and children to get all the help and support they needed, all under one roof. So that learning DNA was in my mind for sort of four or five years before we launched, but essentially we are a multidisciplinary education clinic for children with additional learning needs. And yeah, that's how it came about really.
Speaker 1:So it was based on that need and kind of that desperation of a lot of parents, because the waiting lists to get a diagnosis are so long and, as you say, you know you might be on the waiting list for an ADHD assessment and your child has ADHD and autism. So then you know you're looking at like 10 years you know 15 years to get a diagnosis.
Speaker 1:And meanwhile they're growing so quickly and they're getting disengaged with education, they're getting anxious about education and it's building up problems and it's making the problems bigger by not being able to step in earlier. Why would you say that neurodiverse children struggle more in traditional education settings and why is there that kind of disconnect with traditional education settings, kind of not getting that?
Speaker 2:I think with all the will in the world, you know the education system globally obviously differs from country to country, but primarily, you know we are kind of stuck in this old fashioned Victorian education system where you know, we try, we try. Teachers are formidable and amazing at enabling you know learning to become rich and interactive and they do everything they can to make it come to life for the pupils and the students that they work with. But in reality, the sort of concept of sitting in a classroom at a desk is what I think is the fundamental problem, is what I think is the fundamental problem because, actually, as soon as you well that, along with testing, because as soon as you try to force a young person or you know, an adult to learn in a very specific, unilateral kind of way, you know if you've got a group of 30 children or 32 children and you're trying to get those 32 children to a lesson objective, an outcome, a learning outcome, in that hour or 40 minutes you haven't got time to be teaching those children one-to-one. You need to be hoping that the way that you deliver a lesson and the content within it is adequate to enable you to get those 32 children to achieve that learning outcome and I think it's this kind of one size fits all approach. So it's a little bit of a combination of trying to. You know, children learning in a classroom, students learning in a classroom you know, for example, a child with ADHD it's very, very difficult to sit still. It's very, very difficult to maintain and contain that level of focus and concentration and actually sit through. If you have eight hours of lessons in different classrooms in a day, or in a primary level maybe the same classroom, that's very difficult.
Speaker 2:So we're asking children and young people to learn in a way that doesn't necessarily suit them. It's that kind of formal exam systems. We obviously you know my daughter, my eldest daughter, is doing GCSEs right now and we ask children to learn a huge amount of content. We ask them to be able to synthesize that and respond and evaluate and assess and give answers. You know judgments, but predominantly we're asking children at GCSE level to remember. You know judgments, but predominantly we're asking children at GCSE level to remember. You know eight to 10 subjects worth of content over two years. I can't remember hardly what I ate the day before yesterday, let alone. You know 10 subjects, or eight to 10 subjects covering two years worth of content. It's very, very challenging and I don't think it's representative of real life.
Speaker 2:And I think you know, when we're asking children to remember and regurgitate, you know some people say, oh, it's just a memory test. It isn't just a memory test, it is very much about understanding. It's about assessment, evaluation. You know, at GCSE and A-level they do test the exam boards, do test those different skills, but it's the level and the amount of content that is the issue. I think. And you know, even at degree level you are doing essays and you're writing dissertations and that is almost a more natural way to be assessed because at least you're kind of inputting that learning and your kind of journey through the academic world as you go through.
Speaker 2:When it's exam based and solely exam based and you're testing those children on that particular day, you're making it very, very difficult and obviously some courses do have coursework and that really helps, do have coursework and that really helps and that's why so many children end up, I think, thriving, you know, in BTECs and different courses like that as they go forward, because they're much more coursework based Predominantly. You know, those are the kind of headlines that I see as the problems in our education system that are not meeting the needs of an increasing number of children. And obviously it's cultural as well. I think there's something to be said about the way the world is right now with iPhones and you know the dopamine hits you get from reels on social media and things like that. So I think it's a compounding effect of different elements, but predominantly I think the education system probably isn't keeping up with the way the world is changing. A little bit I think.
Speaker 1:You make a lot of sense there, because you know there isn't. It's kind of odd that we think there's a one size fits all in education. We're not all factory workers anymore, which is really what it was designed for. We were all supposed to. You know, sit and you know learn how to sit for eight hours doing a monotonous task, which education is great to prepare you for, you know. But actually we're all individuals. Nobody learns the same way, you know, and actually we don't learn the same way and we don't test the same way, you know I actually I went to medical school in Ireland and I was very glad to, because they tested you in three different ways.
Speaker 1:So you had multiple choice, you had written and then you also had orals. So I excelled at the orals right, and not so good on the, the writtens and on the multiple choice. I could always argue that there was a better answer and sometimes we'll get the marks changed. But I think it's that kind of lack of personalization which enables us to have metrics which are so important in education, right, that's what it's all become about. We we need to homogenize everything so that we can have outcomes, so that we know where the funding is going and what we're doing and we've lost sight of actually what's coming out at the end of the sausage factory.
Speaker 2:Absolutely yeah, and I think your point actually about the testing in three different ways is quite interesting, because you know people, you hear this sort of narrative around the whole education system needs to be redesigned and actually I don't.
Speaker 2:I don't believe that, I actually just think it's it's small tweaks and actually I don't. I don't believe that, I actually just think it's it's small tweaks and I'm sure the exam boards will start to. You know, look at different ways to do that, like we've heard. For example, I think GCSE English is going online, you know, in the next couple of years, and obviously there's a huge increase in the number of, in the popularity of online schools. You know big brands in the UK and globally who are doing growing at phenomenal rates because they they do accommodate children who, you know, like to learn in a quieter environment or socially, find some of the social aspects of education difficult, and that's fine. It's about finding the right, the right pathway for each individual, I think, as much as possible and as feasible, but in a way that enables them to actually find the best version of themselves and become the best version of themselves and, you know, more importantly, just end up as a happy adult who's successful in their own right, whatever way that is.
Speaker 1:Absolutely Now, Liz, you've been very quiet back there. What are your thoughts on this?
Speaker 3:Well, I think I sort of I suppose I come from, um this point of view from a different angle uh, than Lizzie. I have been a teacher, I've worked in education sort of throughout my career, uh, um off call and, uh, you know, looking at the compliance side of things. But in terms of where I come from, um, you know, when Lizzie first approached me regarding the idea of learning DNA, you know it sang to me. I'm a parent that has been, you know, trying to navigate the system, although I'm a teacher. You know my husband myself and my son has, you know, have neurodiversity and I think it's a joyful moment when you realise that there is somewhere you know that you can go, where you actually, as a parent, get some answers. You know the schools.
Speaker 3:At this moment in time, as Lizzie said, the teachers are working, you know, their socks off. All credit to them. You know I've backed away from teaching. I couldn't do it anymore.
Speaker 3:But I think you know there's so many parents out there, and there's probably so many of your listeners that are trying to navigate the system, that aren't getting answers from schools. Their children are really unhappy. Their home life is really unhappy because their children aren't, you know, being able to be accommodated in the school as it is today. Accommodated in, you know, the school as it is today and I think you know to be able to have somewhere where you can suddenly get some answers and start to understand your child.
Speaker 3:Because I know that from the age of about six months I didn't understand my child and I didn't get answers from anyone that I went to speak to. Excuse me, I spoke to doctors, I spoke to teachers. Excuse me, I spoke to doctors, I spoke to teachers and I think if your child in the current education system has neurodiversity, has struggles in different ways, unless they are very, very extreme, they go under the radar and I think it's those silent children that actually can be harmed even more than the children that have where it's recognized, and that's what's happened to my son, you know. So I think you know there's a lot that can be done out there to help these children and I think you know it definitely needs looking at.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think that's you know to your point, lizzie, earlier about you know it takes you so long to get these assessments and that's one of the things that Learning DNA does. It does this 360 assessment. Can you talk about it? That's something that a parent can do. My understanding is it's not like an educational psychology report or an autistic diagnosis or an ADHD diagnosis. It's a different kind of assessment. But it's really looking at, to your point, Liz, what are those gaps, what kind of support is needed. But I should let you speak about what it's about.
Speaker 1:You know a lot more than I do. I don't know. You seem pretty clued up.
Speaker 2:So yeah, the 360 degree assessment basically has come about over the years that I've been working in schools, because I would, you know, predominantly I'd be a SENCO and I'd have a child come to me and the parent would say you know, I think Johnny's got ADHD. What shall I do? Well, okay, with the best will in the world, I think you should go off and and have an assessment. You know they were going on to the NHS waiting list, but waiting a long time. Then they come back and say well, what if I go privately? Do you know anyone I could go see, you know, and I would have to then refer those families to private clinics. So I would obviously, ethically, I'd vet the clinic first, as much as I could, but you know, I didn't know them.
Speaker 2:And it was a little bit of a kind of hope and pray that that clinic was going to deliver a good result. The thing that really struck me was that parents would go off and pay, you know, up to two and a half thousand pounds for a diagnosis and I was the one saying, yeah, yeah, go ahead and do that. But I would wake up at night and think what if that child doesn't get a diagnosis? What if they don't reach the threshold? Because I am a dyslexia assessor, I do understand that there's criteria that has to be met and therefore I'd be thinking what if I've just made this family go off and spend, you know, or encourage them to go and spend all this money and they're actually still not going to come back with the answers they need?
Speaker 2:So I started to put in place like a pre-referral system where I would screen children using, you know, really reputable assessment batteries, psychology tools, you know, that are freely available in some cases, but very reputable and respected, and I would start to screen children for different difficulties. And I started to look at the whole picture because, as I said, I never saw a child with only one difficulty. So I'd have little Johnny go off, say he did go off and get an ADHD diagnosis, he might come back to me and say, well, I've got this now, miss, what now? And I'd be thinking well, there's a lot more to this. Actually, little Johnny, you know, I know you find it difficult to listen to a sequence of instructions. You know, maybe we should be testing your auditory processing skills because actually ADHD very often comes along with auditory processing difficulties as a co-occurring difficulty.
Speaker 2:So if we weren't getting to the root of the problem, despite a diagnosis, where, when a parent or a child thought that might be the answer and don't get me wrong a diagnostic label, you know, I've never seen a child get a diagnosis and not feel relieved because they feel like there's something different or about them, or they feel relief that they suddenly have a group of people that they can relate to. That's very positive. But but actually, you know, to not get the full picture is what has created the what basically is today's 360 degree assessment. So what that does is, you know, I had this real drive to get to the root of the whole cognitive profile I needed. I thought there were just individual specialists like ADHD nurses were looking for ADHD traits, but they weren't looking for auditory processing difficulties, they weren't looking for dyslexic traits in the same assessment, because those are different parts of the sector.
Speaker 2:They're all siloed, so therefore how could you ever get a full picture because everybody's working on their own. So I basically created a 360 degree assessment from different cognitive assessment batteries that I used as a level seven assessor. I worked with some psychologists to develop, you know, use psychology screening tools that that teachers can use, and I basically created a holistic assessment and and it started out as kind of you know, eight or nine areas of learning that we looked at, and now I think we're up to about 14, 14 areas of learning, which are basically we were assessing skills for learning, essentially to try and put those in order of priority, of strength and weakness, and see where we can then plug a gap or plug a weakness or provide support and intervention to a child to enable them to overcome their barriers to learning. In order of the priority. That we think is the best way to do it. That is essentially the sort of sum up of the 360.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's above kind of diagnosis, it's more what their actual needs are at that moment and how.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So we would ask. Basically, it's the entry point to all our services. So we don't ethically or morally offer anything until we've done a 360 degree assessment for the reasons I've mentioned, we to know the full picture. We don't want to provide any private services, or any at any point, without knowing what is the best way to help an individual child or student, because otherwise we might, we might be missing a whole element of what they find difficult and then we don't get any results because we've missed, you know, a visual processing difficulty or that kind of thing.
Speaker 3:And just to jump in, I think, sort of following on from what Lizzie said, you know we do see a lot of children coming to the clinic who have been over-diagnosed. You know they've got a diagnose for ADHD, one for autism, one for dyslexia, but actually they're still really struggling. They have all these labels but nobody's actually delved deeply and thought actually, how can we support this child, how can we improve the anxiety, how can we help this child overcome, you know, the tummy ache that they have every day in the morning because they're so anxious about going to school. Or how can we help this child sit still, you know, in an environment, you know, because they have adhd and they're being told to sit still. You know it's, and it's sort of, I suppose, looking at these children that have been given a diagnosis and then chucked back out, so to speak, into you know, their world and they're still struggling. So it's, you know there is this enormous gap in the market.
Speaker 1:Well, you're not really. When you're given a diagnosis and I'll speak from my own experience as well they, you know, they might give you some, some links to where to go and some information, but it's it's not really connected to the school especially, you know, I went privately but I think it's the same in the, in the NHS too it doesn't connect with school. Your ed psych report maybe is the most thing that connects to the school and can give you actually practical solutions in a more broad, broad stroke. But it's, it's less, and then that is quite personalized. But the diagnosis itself you think it's a golden ticket, but it's and it does help.
Speaker 1:I, I, you know it explains how your child's brain works. It explains it. It's done a lot for for for me to understand that and to be able to then see my daughter in a different lens, and for the school to also understand a lot of the, the, the classic things. But, as you say, there can be other stuff under the hood there that's going on, that's preventing them from learning that you don't pick up on these things. And we had a little chat about this. You gave me some interesting stories about dyslexia actually, and can you elaborate on that a bit?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I noticed when I was assessing children and young people for dyslexia that that actually there was a, you know, obviously within the the kind of SASC and and APC guidelines, we obviously, as dyslexia assessors, we do need to screen for visual difficulties and and it came about because it came about? Because my own daughter actually has a diagnosis of mild dyslexia and she kept rubbing her eyes when she was reading and would get dry eyes when she was reading. And I was at the same time doing my postgraduate degree in SPLD and I decided that as part, well, as part, of my training, I learned about the visual comorbidities. So I went off and found a behavioral optometrist who was a lady called Dr. I went off and found a behavioral optometrist who was a lady called Dr Flores Navarro, actually at Aston University, and she had a PhD in children with reading difficulties and the correlation between those and visual difficulties. And I took Gracie, my daughter, along and we had a full workup and a full assessment.
Speaker 2:And you know, before that we'd been to opticians and we'd been to high street opticians and she hadn't come out with a prescription. They'd said, no, she's fine, there's no problem, but she was still reading with with, you know, getting dry eyes and itchy eyes and I was thinking there's definitely more to this. So that's why I took her and and the optometrist said absolutely she, she's got an oculomotor function deficit, so there is a problem with the way that her two eyes work together. So when she is reading, if you think you've got two eyes that have to join on a page and track along the page, she had one eye that worked, you know would focus further ahead. I mean, I'm not a specialist in this area so I'm probably not describing it correctly at all, but one eye You're probably going to describe it in a way.
Speaker 2:We can understand that's right, one eye would focus, you know, sort of this far ahead, you know from her, from the page, and the other eye would focus further back. So one eye was having to work so much harder than the other she could see okay, but it you know it was, it was actually the function of the eyes. That was the problem. And then when we did look into that further and she went on a, there's an eye tracking software that optometrists, behavioral optometrists, use because they look at the behavior of the eyes and actually you can watch her eyes reading along a line and they they kind of slightly, ever so slightly, move around the letters. They actually don't track straight along the line like you would expect them to. So what I started to realize over time was well, that would probably explain why it looks like she's got a below average reading speed, because actually that looks like it's a cognitive processing issue. But if she's got an oculomotor difficulty then actually there's probably a visual difficulty here. So she then, as you know, has got a prescription, quite a specialist prescription, with a prism lens again, which I don't really know what you know, I just know it's effective. I don't know how to want it. So, yeah, she's got a prism lens, she had some vision therapy and her reading speed increased to a point that was like 25% more quick. It was. It sped up 25% in speed overnight and that was with the glasses. So the glasses and the prescription were like the, the quick win. And then the vision therapy helped to basically strengthen her oculomotor functioning so that she could actually read more effectively.
Speaker 2:And I started to think about this from different perspectives. So the children that would come to me in school and say I think I might be dyslexic, or the parents, was, I think, my child's dyslexic? And I think I mean, you know roughly, I had probably 35 children come to me over two years saying I think I might have dyslexia and I would, bearing in mind that I'd started to develop the 360 degree assessment, I would start to go through visual screening assessments with these children and I had I worked with Dr Floors from Aston University and I had a screening protocol that I could go through and I would refer the children to Dr Floors if they scored over a certain benchmark on the on the screener. And what happened was, of those 35 children, I referred probably 28 to 30 of those children to Dr Flores and more than half of those came back with a visual oculomotor difficulty.
Speaker 2:Now, if I hadn't have done that work, those children would have probably gone and got a dyslexia assessment and then been misdiagnosed with dyslexia, because actually the screening that a dyslexia assessor does may not necessarily sometimes it would be, but may not necessarily be as in-depth as that.
Speaker 2:So you know, what I realized was there's a lot of misdiagnosis of children who think they're dyslexic. It's a little bit like the medical model where you have to rule out certain conditions in order to reach a conclusion, and so that's the approach we take at Learning DNA. So, within our 360 degree assessment, we've got a convergence insufficiency screener that we use and that will actually give us a score and then a cutoff point for you know wherever that child is with their visual skills, and then we refer to a behavioral optometrist if we need to. But it's important that I personally think and you know I don't think it's controversial, it's just my professional opinion that there are a lot of people out there who've been misdiagnosed with dyslexia, and I think it's. We just have to be very careful about the way that we really screen for visual difficulties.
Speaker 1:So it's my understanding there that you wouldn't have both of those conditions at the same time. It's either one or the other. It's either a motor functioning of the eye in focusing it sounds like or it could be dyslexia. So you rule out the first one to see if it's a functional focusing abnormality, and they wouldn't occur concurrently together.
Speaker 2:Well, so they could actually, but what I think we have. So this is early days for us in terms of our work, you know, and how this work is translating into our practice at Learning DNA. But essentially, you know, what we would do first is, if the visual screener comes up as a high score, we then refer to a behavioral optometrist and they'll do a full, you know, in-depth behavioral optometry assessment. If at that point they come back with no issues which is that rarely I mean we haven't, I don't think we've had more than one or two but just say, you know, for some reason, because some of that screening is a little bit subjective, so we've got to get a full professional work up of what that you know the behavioral optometrist thinks of that child's visual skills, so they'll come back, say they come back with no difficulties, which, as I say, hasn't happened Then we would be thinking, okay, well, do the other scores reflect what we potentially would need to go and look at a dyslexic profile?
Speaker 2:And I mean we haven't had any of those yet. So far. All we've had we've had 180 children through the clinic, uh, since we launched, and we haven't had anybody. That does actually fit both of those. So we haven't had a child who's got visual difficulty and dyslexia. Um, it tends. So far of the 180, it's one or the other. However, I wouldn't want to say publicly because I don't know the answer. No, they can't occur together. I think you've just got it. No, no, this is the importance of the full picture, because if you know there is a visual difficulty, you've got to support that first. Then we, like we have another program called a personalized learning program that is led by a level 7 dyslexia teacher to fill the phonic gaps and the. You know all of the difficulties that co-occur with what looks like dyslexia, when it may not be, because actually the gaps of learning is still there. So it can look like that. But we've got to make sure we're treating and supporting the right difficulty first.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that makes sense. Um, cause it it it. You know, dyslexia is more than just tracking. Tracking your words when you read, I mean like I couldn't tell the difference between a, b and an M still sometimes can't. So I mean, you know, so there's different, there's different aspects. So it sounds to me like you kind of triage. People make sure that you're ruling out things that can be easily, it sounds like, vastly improved with glasses and with therapy, before going on to assess whether they have other dyslexic needs as well that go beyond that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you know what there are children and young people who you know, once we've completed a 360, they have got multiple difficulties, multiple difficulties. You know seven or eight of the 13 or 14 skills for learning that we test are below average in, you know, on a standardized score. And then it's really difficult because actually we're thinking right, how can we have the biggest impact on this child's progress? How can we have, you know, the biggest impact on their mental health and well-being? Because we assess that too and sometimes it, you know it becomes a roundtable discussion like, actually, how do we think as a team? You know, who can have the biggest impact the most quickly to get the best results quickly for this child and we have children.
Speaker 2:That will be, that will be with us in our program. You know undertaking different therapeutic interventions for three terms in a, you know. So, a full, a full year, and then we really will be able to see a difference. But I think it's really important that parents realize none of this is a quick fix, like anything in life. You know glasses can can help with a significant difference overnight, like they can for anybody, even with a normal, you know, sight deficiency. But but it is about getting the right support on a consistent basis for a period of time. We obviously measure the benchmark at the beginning, so we've got scores from the beginning of the program and at the end and we compare the two. So parents know that it's working, but yeah, but it's not a quick fix, and it's important that we get all the information we need.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I imagine it's ever evolving and changing as they grow as well. So we've talked, I think, pretty comprehensively, about your comprehensive assessment. But now let's talk a little bit more about what the you know what, what you do. So you've mentioned the 14 factors, you, you then create a personalized therapeutic intervention and you've mentioned to me you have a movement therapy program, you have a personalized learning program. So take me through after you've had that assessment, what is the output? And I know it's different for each person, but there's some commonalities you've discussed with me before.
Speaker 2:What was the question?
Speaker 1:Sorry take you through Sorry what your interventions are Once you've got that 360, you've mentioned to me before you have a movement therapy program. You also have a personalized learning program. So what can a parent expect after they've gone through that 360 in terms of what are the next steps and how that child is going to be supported?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely so. We create a bespoke report really, where we look at the scores and we will decide, based on the standardized scores which have validated and normed basically, which of those particular learning skills we think we can have an impact on first. So we will. We've basically formulated a plan where, for example, if there's certain scores that are low in, say, auditory processing skills more than anything else, then that child we would suggest goes through our auditory integration therapy program for 12 weeks so that we can start suggest goes through our auditory integration therapy program for 12 weeks so that we can start to really improve those auditory processing skills.
Speaker 2:If they had, I don't know, mental health and well-being difficulties, we would be looking at what we think is causing that first. So if there's an autism sort of profile there, we might be looking to diagnose autism first, because that will go a long way into explaining this is why you feel a bit different. And these are the things that we can. We can do to help you. And sometimes, when it comes to autism, a diagnosis is the best way forward. But actually with a lot of the other difficulties, I would go as far as to say I think we've started to work in a way that when we have we think there's ADHD or autism in the background, when it's a medical diagnosis, we will usually diagnose that first before we offer therapy.
Speaker 1:But most of the time we'll offer therapy. And do you diagnose at Learning DNA or do you send them off? No, we do. Yes.
Speaker 2:We have a clinical psychology team. We do everything here, yeah, so if, but if, if, if we think there are, so if we think a child is showing dyslexic traits but there's no, or maybe there's sort of a borderline visual difficulty that we're not quite sure of, or you know, we will then actually offer therapeutic, so personalized learning program, first for 12 weeks to try and see how quickly they make progress within that program. If, if they're making limited progress within that program we know this is, you know, actually this is not environmental, this is not just that they have had poor teaching and learning, which you know, if you know yourself, if your child has a teacher who maybe just unluckily isn't great for a particular year, they don't make the same progress. You know it is difficult and obviously that is human nature. So I think it is all about making sure that therapy matches what we find in 360.
Speaker 2:And the four pathways that we have are essentially the personalized learning program, vision therapy, the auditory integration training and the movement therapy. So at the moment there are four main therapies, but we also do offer talking therapies. So we increasingly have parents saying you know, I'm not sure how to support my child in the summer holidays, they have ADHD or they have sensory difficulties. It's really difficult for us as a family. I don't know what to do. Well, actually we have, you know, specialists, coun specialists, counselors in neurodiversity. You can give that family strategies to enable them to formulate a plan and understand and be empathetic for that child and come up with a way to make their, their family time more enjoyable through strategies, through strategies and techniques, really.
Speaker 2:So the four main therapies, and then the talking therapy, are the other you know depending on the scores and it is complicated because we've got to look at the full picture and every child is completely unique. That's the reality. But we have got certain patterns that we've developed through the 180 assessments that now we know this works, that works, yeah, so and that you know it's great that it's so personalized, and then you work with.
Speaker 1:You work it sounds like you work alongside and maybe, liz, you can talk about this too with your own experience as well is how you work with families and how you work with schools alongside your organization. You know so how you get that collaboration, because it's really important, I think, to bring all those parties together.
Speaker 3:In terms of what you've learned from the assessments and then what the plan is moving forward, yeah, so in terms of sort of, you know, our whole approach, sort of from right, from the 360, all the way through, is holistic. So, yeah, we reach out to schools, we reach out to parents and you know, we want to help that child because at the end of the day, if one thing is missing in the machine, then that child's not going to develop, so to speak, or you know, um, you know, overcome some of these challenges. So in our reporting, in the 360 report, we give um parents, um support for homes, so how they can target these children and help you know, know, with some of the challenges, nothing too onerous but just small tweaks that can be made in the home environment in order to support them. And we also provide, at this point, support for schools. So, again, we're really conscious that teachers are under pressure, sencos are under pressure, you know with, you know large classes and you know lots of tick boxes. So we just, you know, provide very small tweaks that can have actually quite a significant impact on a child.
Speaker 3:I worked with a parent quite recently whose son was actually dyslexic and just providing the school with some very small tweaks for him has made a significant impact on his learning, how he enjoys the classroom, and one of those things was just where he was sat. And it can be something as very simple as that. You know that we can provide a school and you know we're seeing schools come back to us saying you know, thank you, you know it's just something small, but we haven't thought about it. So, yeah, we're looking at the whole picture here.
Speaker 1:And it's, you know, for a lot of my listeners who are, you know, listening to the podcast they might be on the pathway of, they are about they think they might need an EHCP. You know they need a diagnosis, they need an EHCP, they're battling the education system. This explain to me how this can sit alongside, how it can facilitate, how it can help both in school because it's a long journey both to getting an EHCP. The wait lists now are longer than when I went through it, and as are they for diagnoses. So how does learning DNA kind of bridge that gap and how can it help support what the parent is trying to do with their child and what the school is trying to get the support for that child?
Speaker 2:So I think it's really important to say that schools do an amazing job. You know, on the whole they do an amazing job and they do everything they can to support children. I think the resources that they are, that they have, are sometimes very limited. And you know it's not that we are the be all and end all and provide all the answers. We absolutely don't. But we do work in partnership very closely with schools. To you know, we develop good relationships with SENCOs, mostly with schools. To you know, we develop good relationships with SENCOs. So when it comes to EHCPs, I think it kind of depends on the situation. There are obviously kind of political difficulties and demand difficulties with local authorities in terms of the waiting lists are long. You know many EHCPs we've heard from parents whether it's true or not, I don't know, but we've heard from parents they don't necessarily get when they do an EHCNA.
Speaker 1:They don't necessarily get through the threshold. They're not considered to be complex enough and I think and just to clarify for my listeners an EHCNA is a needs assessment of an EHCP.
Speaker 2:Needs assessment, yeah, they don't. For my listeners, an EHCNA is a needs assessment of an EHCP. So when a child eventually does get to, you know, a needs assessment, sometimes they don't necessarily reach the threshold of getting an EHCP awarded. And I think sometimes parents feel that an EHCP is the be all and end all and I think it's very complicated because for some children, absolutely that is the case. You know, without any doubt, there are other children that actually I've seen that you know, been awarded EHCPs before, where that isn't necessarily the case and an EHCP hasn't necessarily changed everything for that child. And that can be be because, I don't know, it could be that the you know, some of the support that's detailed within the EHCP you know isn't effective or isn't working or isn't quite right. There's so many reasons, ambiguous, yeah, ambiguous, and I think the way that we help with both getting support at school, supporting schools as well, on a kind of triangular approach, is that we again, I think I just keep coming back to the 360, because actually, as soon as you have all the answers, it is easier to be much more specific in the way that you offer provision and I think we provide an added layer of expertise for schools where they can't fulfill something within an EHCP, for example. So we, you know we can help parents to build evidence for an EHCP through using us for a 360 degree assessment so that they can make sure that if that child isn't making progress over two terms, they've got all the information they need to try and make sure that they do make progress, or they can change their approach or find a different setting for that child if it's not the right setting. So we can get answers for both parties.
Speaker 2:And then we've got lots of schools who are starting to work with us who, for example, have got children with EHCPs or young people with EHCPs who can't actually find the right kind of therapeutic intervention or the right kind of intervention for those children that have the EHCPs. Because we're very specialist, we can deliver that. So they you know we're seeing we're in situations where a child is dual funded through a normal school, through the local authority, and for an online school, and then actually the both of those schools are using us as the provider for the EHCP support because neither of those parties can do it. But we can do that, we can be the sort of third cog in the wheel, kind of thing. Um, so there's a there's a lot of different ways we can support parents. We don't help with the EHCP application process. We do get asked that, but we don't help with that currently. We just try and support around the process because usually those kind of children are the ones that we can help to achieve better outcomes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that makes sense, and you work with students in school, but you also work with students outside of school as well, right, and is most of it done online or do they come into clinics? How does the actual setup work?
Speaker 2:So we've got a physical clinic in Solihull which is kind of our HQ and that's kind of our model for a physical clinic. At the moment that's our own clinic, but we originally thought we would end up being a business that had kind of, you know, multiple clinics across the nation and that was kind of the original plan. But very quickly, as we went into market, we realized that actually we work with a lot of online schools and online providers and therefore they wanted you know, these are schools that don't have physical locations. So we work a lot with we do work a lot with physical schools, but but actually they you know, post-covid, when everything's done online and there's a lot more respect and kind of credibility around online working and those kind of methods we found that actually the demand was there for therapeutic provision to be delivered remotely, was there for therapeutic provision to be delivered remotely. So we like to think we're pretty innovative and groundbreaking in the way that we deliver our therapies. So, for example, our movement therapy we partner with another company who provide AI physical tracking for our movement therapy. So, for example, a child will have an online assessment with our movement therapy. So, for example, a child will have an online assessment with our movement therapist, who's specially trained for that. We will provide data which shows a parent or a school, you know, which retained primitive reflexes are retained, and then our movement therapist will create a bespoke movement therapy program over 12 weeks for that child to integrate those reflexes.
Speaker 2:And the technology that we use for that is essentially, um, there's kind of a camera. If you imagine your computer screen split in half, on one half there's. There's the person, the recorded kind of movements that the child needs to follow, and on the left hand side is the child with their ai based little skeleton man that's kind of overlaid over the top of their body. Um, and basically the left hand side is the child with their AI based little skeleton man that's kind of overlaid over the top of their body and basically the software tracks the movement that the child does in each session against what it should do in an ideal world and scores them with a percentage for each movement so they can see visually the improvement as they go through every single week.
Speaker 2:You know, I had a child in last week. We were doing a review. He said you know what was really cool? I uh, you know I had I've got a neck reflex and I went from 21 to 100 in four weeks. You know so these, the children, young this was a 14 year old boy that you wouldn't expect to engage well, but because of the technology and the way that we deliver our remote therapies, they really are engaging because it's almost like a gamified learning experience, and so we're seeing-.
Speaker 1:So is that through the video camera that they're. So the kid is making the movements on the video camera and then the software is matching it to the AI. That's right. Yes, so they use the?
Speaker 2:webcam and so, yeah, we're seeing some amazing results from movement therapy. And what I will say about movement therapy, um, that being that being delivered online is actually that's our probably flagship program because of the 180 children we've had through 80 180 children and some, you know, some adults we've had through the clinic. I think of those 180, we've probably only had about eight or nine individuals who don't have retained primitive reflexes. So, you know, and there is obviously documented correlation between retained primitive reflexes and learning difficulties. So we that's kind of the foundation to everything we do. So so the movement therapy program is very popular and we're just really excited to be able to you know that we found a way to deliver that online in an effective way. That is getting amazing feedback from the clients, so, and the children themselves, which is actually what it's all about.
Speaker 3:So it's really good I think, one of the just jumping in there again.
Speaker 3:I think one of the things because I get to speak to a lot of the parents that they always ask me is how, how do I engage my child know when it is online and how do I keep them motivated? You know, some of the children that we work with are quite challenging, demand avoidant, and I'd say the people that we employ, you know, are absolutely, I think, probably at the core of everything we do. We've got some absolutely outstanding people on our books, some of them, you know, highly qualified, some of them are just it's just about the people, really and they're so good at engaging with the children. We have weekly check-ins every every week with them and they're just engaging. They understand how to push each of these children's buttons, what they love, how to engage with them, what keeps them motivated. And I think you know, for me, that's probably the number one question I get asked from parents. You know they think the therapy that we offer is amazing, but how do I keep my child engaged at home? Well, our people do. They're absolutely brilliant.
Speaker 2:Just for the avoidance of doubt, they're all qualified.
Speaker 1:Is that I came out wrong? No, and I mean it. It sounds like you understand the, the type of kids you're working with and the kind of challenges that parents have, um, and and how to navigate those as well. Looking towards, like, the future and personalized education, where you know and this is a kind of pie in the sky kind of question and where do you see it going and where do you, can you speculate on any emerging trends that you think are going to happen? Where do you see education going and how do you see it becoming more personalized?
Speaker 2:other than like your own, I know yeah.
Speaker 2:I think so, obviously, we keep our ear to the ground and we've got so many friends who are still in education. We're working with various kind of thought leaders in education as well, who are helping us develop our brand and our services. I think from what the feedback, from talking to them and us thinking about it in terms of what we offer in terms of product and service, I think it's obvious, but I think AI is going to have a massive impact on education. I think, actually, it's going to be interesting to see over the next five to 10 years, what happens with this online school model. To see over the next five to 10 years, what happens with this online school model. Um, so, you know, we've got a lot of clients who work who attend online school provision, whether that is. You know they might be in in a school that, uh, they they're accredited by the department for education, they follow all the normal compliance and you know they they're on all the main exam board syllabuses and all those kind of things. And I think the thing that's interesting is that these online schools, you can actually have lessons that are live or you can have lessons that you attend at a time that suits you, and it isn't just children who don't suit traditional education models that attend those schools. So I've got a friend, for example, whose daughter is very high up in sport. She's, you know, a national squash player. You know they live fairly remotely and actually she attends an online school, did all of her A-levels online really successfully. She gets a lot of social input from her sport and her, you know, local friends and I think I think we're going to see these kind of online school models really emerge as a viable and, you know, quality option to be considered by parents.
Speaker 2:I think I think potentially we might see.
Speaker 2:You know, at the moment, for example, if you, if you put in your child to your child's name, you apply for a secondary school place with the local authority or primary school place, at the moment you're basically given a school according to where you live.
Speaker 2:You know the radius of your postcode and that kind of thing. I think that might change and we might start to see kind of like a voucher system potentially for parents to be able to choose an online school if they want one, or kind of remote education if they want one. You know there's, I think, with the way that the world is evolving, with remote working specifically, if you've got parents who work remotely and then you've got and they're quite forward thinking, why do you need to be in a physical location? You know you don't necessarily need to be based in one place. And I think the way that it's interesting that the conversation you know Elon Musk saying that everyone has to go back to work and work from the office you know it's interesting. I just don't think from a human perspective it's going to be sustainable.
Speaker 1:You know we Sorry, I'm giggling here, because why do we listen to anything that man says?
Speaker 2:He's not the only one, though, is there? There are these different narratives from like leaders in industry who were saying you know everyone back to the office. Well, I just don't see how there's a route forward for that, and I think that it's like trying to put the genie back in the bottle. It is the horse is bolted, you can't do that.
Speaker 1:And I understand their arguments. I understand their arguments and why it benefits big corporations and things like that, but it's become personalized. The individual doesn't care about that anymore. The individual is caring about other things as well now. So it's becoming our lives are becoming more personalized and you can't put it back.
Speaker 2:No, can't shove that back in again, you know, and I think, while parents can work remotely and then they might start to consider as the kind of as this model grows, actually maybe online education isn't so bad. And then also with AI, you know, there are schools emerging who are delivering a lot of the curriculum predominantly through personalized AI learning. Already that's happening. I don't think. I think it will enhance the delivery of education for a while, but it will be interesting to see where that takes us in five, six, seven years time, because I think it is absolutely a revolution, as we all probably you know anticipate.
Speaker 1:And it personalizes it you know, it personalizes it.
Speaker 1:It can very easily personalize it for your level, the support you need, all those things that you talked about in the diagnostic tests that you do. It can personalize it so that your child can learn exactly kind of in the way that they need to learn. So great answer. I have to say. I put you on the spot there and you gave me a great answer. Very, very, very interesting. But we are running out of time. I've got two more things I want to discuss because I know a lot of listeners are going to be thinking to themselves. All right, we've mentioned how expensive it is to get an autism or ADHD diagnosis in the 2000s. How much does it cost to get and I guess your starting is getting this 360 assessment? How much will that cost a parent and is it self-funded?
Speaker 2:So yeah, at the moment that's self-funded. We're working on ways to hopefully enable more people to access it who can't necessarily self-fund it. But it's £295 for a 360 degree assessment. You can access that from anywhere in the world. It is a 90-minute assessment with a specialist level seven assessor. We obviously do a full, deep dive into the 14 different skills for learning. You get an eight to 12 page report that follows it, along with a half an hour one to one telephone feedback session.
Speaker 2:So you know, we try to keep that as strong a price point as we can in terms of we want everybody to access that because we think that is the best possible thing we can do as a starting point. So yeah, that is, I think, good value. We're told it's good value for what you get as a result of that. And then, obviously, the therapeutic interventions. You know, look, we're not cheap. We do have to, we have to keep training our people, we have to stay at the front of the industry and try and develop our tools and we've got to keep the lights on, but we try to be competitive against you know, other private prices for things like an ADHD dyslexia assessment. You know our dyslexia assessment is 750 pounds. That's probably there or thereabouts for um a private assessment, but it's it's not so much about that, it's actually obviously the whole package.
Speaker 2:It's what we offer through a program. So you know we do offer payment plans, we offer direct debit payments. We try and make it as accessible as we possibly can. We're just going through our CQC registration, which will allow us to get listed on the right to choose pathway, which will be a game changer because that means it will be funded.
Speaker 2:Our assessments will be funded so yeah, we try we try really hard to stay competitive because ultimately our goal is to try and have a basically support a million children in the next three to four years. So we're going as big as we can with the scale and impact and to do that we've got to be reasonable in the way that we approach our problems and we didn't actually mention.
Speaker 1:You've only just started. It was like november of last year, yeah, so seven months ago gosh, my memory worked for once. Yeah, so we've just yeah we, we have been busy.
Speaker 2:We, you know liz works really hard to to help move everything along. We've just taken on some investment. We've got some amazing um backers. Um, we're developing our own proprietary software for a virtual clinic so schools can access a virtual clinic where they can get you know, tap into the additional level of expertise within our clinic remotely. So we want to become the leading neurodevelopmental platform globally for children with SEN, for schools and parents. That's the plan. No small feat, but we're trying.
Speaker 1:Well, you know it's so needed and it is. You know it is. Parents are crying out for this, kids are crying out for this and it's, you know it's. It's a broken system right now and there's so many kids that are falling by the wayside that it's really nice to hear that there is programs like yours out there that can really fill that gap and have our kids reach, reach their potentials, which I think is the only.
Speaker 1:Thing that any parent wants is that you know someone that can see their child's potential and see where their child is struggling and then push them forward, because all we want is our kids to grow up and be able to be functioning members of society and to and have you know, have the chance to have a good life. You know there's no guarantees in life, but at least you know that we can support them, and I think that's what you've really highlighted today that it's finding what those barriers are and it can be really small barriers and then finding ways to navigate them and to help kids with that. So it's been absolutely wonderful. I love to end all of my podcasts with three top tips you would like to give my listeners to take away with them in their back pocket.
Speaker 3:I think my top tip, coming from a parent that's had their child have a 360, is I think the most important thing is empowering yourself as a parent and your children by understanding the whole child and what's going on with them. It's, it's helped me and my family no end and I just think, um, you know, if you have that, that magic wand do it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, lizzie, uh what was number two. She's written them down, but I did write them down. Oh, yeah, I think one of the things we talked about earlier was, you know, not always, but sometimes, you see, I think it's a funny situation, isn't it?
Speaker 2:You have children, you really want them to be successful, but sometimes it's your view of what success is what success is. And I mean, I've got a 16 year old daughter who, increasingly, is basically 25, and you know very much her own person and, and I think you start to realize, and especially in the work that we do, actually it's just about enabling that individual to become the best version that they want to be. It's it's about pushing an open door. So, once you do know what their you know their strengths and weaknesses are, well, if their strengths are in a particular area, maybe they're very practical people or they, you know, very creative and just encourage that you know. Once you've got the data that tells you where their strengths are, that's a lovely way to support them to become their own version of what they think is successful, and I think so, yeah, it's supporting them in a way that is beneficial for for your child, rather than you know. Sometimes, I think we, we have our own agendas and and often it backfires and it's difficult, isn't it, um?
Speaker 2:so I think that's that's really important. And then the final one is that the um diagnosis. Diagnoses are really important. You know, labels have definitely have their place. Like I said, I've seen so many children over the years cry with relief and adults you know that they've got a label and they feel like I finally understand it. You know, we've got 65 year old adults coming through the clinic saying I just want to know. I think I've, I've always thought I was dyslexic and I just want to know. You know, and I think it gives it gives answers, which is really, really powerful. But I think the a label doesn't always solve the problem, and that's why this kind of very holistic approach is so powerful for young people and parents, because actually, you know, um, you just need to understand the full picture without going down a route and without considering all other options, and so that's yeah, the diagnoses are important, but they don't get to the root cause of the problem, and that's what we do try to do. So I think that's really important.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I would agree, and it doesn't give a solution, but it gives an identity and it can give a pathway for you to go forward with. But it's. You know, I speak to lots of parents who say, oh, my kid has the alphabet after their name in terms of the diagnoses that they have. So you know, it's yeah, take it with a grain of salt. And, more important, it's understanding what you can do to support your child and, as you said, find their passions and it might not be what you're passionate about, but find what it is, because that's where the magic really happens. If you can support them, they can find their passion.
Speaker 1:then, boom, you know and it might not be what you, you know it might be, I don't know picking up rubbish in the park I have no idea.
Speaker 2:Whatever it is, they want to do it exactly. The most important thing is, you know, actually the overriding message we have from parents when you really get down to the nitty-gritty is they just want their children to grow up happy. It actually doesn't you. You know, success means happiness really, because some people are just happy. You know, not working or becoming a doctor or whatever. You know, being a sports person.
Speaker 1:Look, I became a doctor and then I've left it.
Speaker 1:So, you know what I mean Like that's another thing I say to my daughter what you decide to do today might not. I mean, we change our careers, we change what we. You know, you've been a teacher, you've been a SENCO and now you're doing this. You know we kind of program our kids to think that there's one way to go. It's not, you're going to do lots of different things in your life, you know, and it's that's what makes life interesting, but to have that love of learning, which is that curiosity and getting rid of those barriers so that they can get interested. My daughter, you know, has working memory problems, but she can memorize an entire chapter if she's going to perform it somewhere, you know, versus working memory problems gone.
Speaker 1:You know, you've got to find what they're interested in and then actually a lot of these barriers that they will power through them because they're so interested in whatever they're doing. So, um, I think it's great and I think you give. I will be putting all of your details in the show notes so that people can find and access you, cause I know a lot of parents are just struggling and their children are as well, and the schools are struggling too. Teachers are struggling. It's it's it's not a nice situation that we're in. So it's nice that there are organizations like yours that can help bridge the gaps and can help have that more holistic approach. So thank you very much and also thank you for having us on.
Speaker 2:You know, is that we will actually give your listeners um 30 off, uh, if they want a 360 as well, so we'll put that in your, we'll send that over to you. They'll be able. If they say they've come from your podcast, we'll honor that discount as well. So, 30 off, a 360 degree assessment and we would love to, yeah, help as many people we can. So thank you for having us. Thank you Excellent.
Speaker 1:Thank you very much. Thank you for listening. Send Parenting Tribe. If you haven't already, please click on the link in the show notes to join us in the private Send Parenting WhatsApp community. It's been wonderful to be able to communicate with everyone in the community and for us to join together to help each other, to navigate challenges and to also celebrate successes. Wishing you and your family a really good week ahead, Thank you.