SEND Parenting Podcast
Welcome to the Send Parenting Podcast. I'm your neurodiverse host, Dr Olivia Kessel, and, more importantly, I am a mother to my wonderfully neurodivergent daughter, Alexandra, who really inspired this podcast.
As a veteran in navigating the world of neurodiversity, I have uncovered a wealth of misinformation, alongside many answers and solutions that were never taught to me in medical school or in any of the parenting handbooks.
Each week on this podcast, I will be bringing the experts to your ears to empower you on your parenting crusade.
SEND Parenting Podcast
EP 130: Why are neurodiverse girls being ignored with Sara Donnelly, former headteacher
Sara Donnelly, a head teacher of 14 years, shares why she's leaving education leadership after witnessing the system repeatedly fail neurodivergent children, in particular, girls. We also delve into why:
• Girls with neurodiversity are often missed because they present differently than the stereotypical profile
• Signs to watch for in autistic girls include subtle stimming, hypervigilance, and struggling to maintain (not make) friendships
• Many professionals still believe myths like "she can't be autistic because she makes eye contact" or "she has friends"
• Emotionally Based School Avoidance (EBSA) should be addressed by fixing the environment, not the child
• Creative solutions like normalising ear defenders for everyone can help neurodivergent children without singling them out
• The education system needs radical reform: smaller class sizes, less testing, and personalized learning
Join our private WhatsApp community to connect with other parents navigating their neurodiverse journey.
www.sendparenting.com
Welcome to the Send Parenting Podcast. I'm your neurodiverse host, dr Olivia Kessel, and, more importantly, I'm mother to my wonderfully neurodivergent daughter, alexandra, who really inspired this podcast. As a veteran in navigating the world of neurodiversity in a UK education system, I've uncovered a wealth of misinformation, alongside many answers and solutions that were never taught to me in medical school or in any of the parenting handbooks. Each week on this podcast, I will be bringing the experts to your ears to empower you on your parenting crusade. If you're looking for a safe space to connect with other parents navigating their neurodiverse journey, our private WhatsApp community offers support, insights and real conversations with like-minded parents who truly understand. Join the conversation today. You can find the link in the show notes.
Speaker 1:In this episode, we meet with an almost former head teacher, sarah Donnelly, who has done the unthinkable. She's walked away from leadership after 14 years because the system kept failing the very children she was trying to protect, including her own daughter. She is a mother, a neurodivergent woman and a passionate advocate for change. Together, in this episode, we will unpack why so many neurodivergent girls are still being missed, what emotionally based school avoidance really looks like and why compulsory training for educators is not just important, it is urgent. This is a raw, honest conversation about reaching breaking point and finding purpose on the other side. Please tune in. It's going to be a good episode. So welcome, sarah.
Speaker 1:It is such a pleasure to have you on the SEND Parenting Podcast today because you know, the topic that we're going to discuss kind of the invisibility of girls who are neurodiverse, both in school but also, I have to say, at home as well is something that is so close to my own heart. I didn't realize my daughter had ADHD until way longer than I should have. You know what I mean, and there is a general misconception of girls and neurodiversity, and so I'm so excited to have you on the podcast today because not only are you a head teacher, but you're also neurodiverse and a neurodiverse parent, so you have this holistic 360 view and I just look forward to picking your brain, and I was really pleased that you reached out to me to come on the podcast, because I know you're a big advocate for this as well. Can you tell me a little bit about your advocacy and how you got to where?
Speaker 2:you are? Yeah, absolutely. First of all, thank you for having me on. I am so excited to be here.
Speaker 2:I feel really passionate about highlighting what women and girls are going through and sharing my personal story and, like you say, olivia, I have quite a unique perspective because I'm inside the system. I'm a head teacher at the moment. I am neurodivergent myself and my children are neurodivergent, so I do see it from all angles. So how did I end up where? I am neurodivergent myself and my children are neurodivergent, so I do see it from all angles. So how did I end up where I am now? It's been a journey. I've been in education for 14 years and my daughter, who's currently in year five she had her struggles quite early on and we can delve into that more in a bit, but essentially I got to a point where I was really frustrated. Um, from all angles. I felt like it was coming at me from all sides. I had a child who just wasn't getting the support they needed and I felt like I was just smashing my head off a brick wall repeatedly and then I was seeing these children.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, don't we all? I mean, that's kind of parenting, in fairness you know parents feel like that. Anyway, it's like a high velocity collision, I think.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly. And then on top of that, you know, I was in school and I, my staff, my teachers, you know they're amazing, but they can only do so much with the little funding we have in place. And I was bashing my head off a brick wall there too, and I just felt something's got to shift. I need to, I need to do something about this. I want to do something in a different way, and that's what led me to do the advocacy that I'm doing now and also, hopefully, working with schools more as I go forwards in supporting their staff to be trained in how to support our children.
Speaker 1:Excellent and it's so so, so needed you know. And so what was kind of your journey with your daughter and how and your struggles, and how you tell us a little bit about your personal journey.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely so I I mean, I didn't know I was neurodivergent, I didn't. I didn't cotton onto that until I started to understand more about my daughter and learn more and research more and get more involved in that side of things. But so with my daughter, my son was already diagnosed dyslexic and I had struggled with that a bit. I was a teacher at the time and I found it really frustrating trying to get him the support in place. And then my daughter came along and I knew really early on when she was a baby, I just felt and as a toddler, that there was just something a little bit different.
Speaker 2:The velocity of her meltdowns was just so intense and it just fell off. It didn't feel like a normal temper tantrum that you'd get from a two-year-old. You know these were extreme and they could be quite violent and her separation anxiety was was really extreme as well. And she went into school and I was a full-time. You know I was full-time, I was working and I was actually the assistant head in her school and she really, really struggled with this and she had massive separation anxiety but she would have these meltdowns and I was trying to work full time and I remember we got this childminder in place and she bit the childminder and I remember thinking, okay, this is not great. Anyway, she went to reception and she was not too bad. She was engaging, she was learning, but there was still some struggles.
Speaker 2:And then we went into lockdown where she seemed to thrive and get on really well actually she was, she loved it, she loved the different environment, went back in year one and that's where it all just went massively downhill and and actually what happened is the SENCO at the school was a personal friend of mine as well and I mean I owe her so much I hope she's listening and she was incredible and she gave me a lot of support. She had an autistic, has an autistic daughter herself who's in her teens, because she saw us inside of school and outside of school. She saw the behaviors inside and outside of school. So all the masking that my daughter was doing, she saw right through it and she tentatively asked me one day look, have you considered that she could be autistic? What?
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:I mean really like I knew there was something, but I was a bit wow, no, I didn't, no, no way. But then she'd sown that seed and I started to look into it, I started to ask the questions and what I came up against was, well, no, she can't be autistic because she makes eye contact. No, but she's got loads of friends, so she can't, she couldn't be autistic. And all of those stereotypes and myths and a lot of that was coming from professionals and professionals, you know, within her school and outside the school. Thankfully, because the SENCO did know her in and outside of school, she was able to then support us in seeking a diagnosis and she was able to evidence it quite fully. And we did get her diagnosis when she was then in year two.
Speaker 1:Wow, I mean, it's just as you say. You owe her a lot because, yeah, A of having that personalized experience as well with autism herself and then being able to see you in and out of school is you know you were? Yeah, A lot of other people aren't that lucky. No, they're not.
Speaker 2:And it's exactly that. And I think on it's exactly that because I often feel I don't know how I would navigate what we're going through without the knowledge I have as a teacher and a head teacher. How parents do this when they're not in the system and they don't understand the system. I, I just don't know. You know, we did then manage to get an EHCP for her, but I knew what needed to be in there. I was able to unpick it and say, no, you haven't included this, you haven't included that, um. And and push for the support she needed. And even with all that, we have had significant challenges and my daughter isn't in school at the moment. She's been out of school for over a term and I am fighting with the local authority for an SEN provision, and who knows if I'll be successful, um. But you know you keep fighting the good fight, don't you? So that's why I'm really passionate to help other parents, because I think they don't have that insider knowledge and someone needs to give it to them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. Do you have any advice to parents in terms of now looking back and having the knowledge that your friend who gave you of signs that they can see you know that girls present with in school at home? That could be an indicator yeah, I mean absolutely.
Speaker 2:I think you need to be more attuned to what autism in girls can look like, and that's not to say that it can't be similar for boys. I should definitely preface it with that. Boys absolutely do mask as well. It is just generally considered more common a trait in girls. When I work with the teachers in my school and when I do training on this, what I'm telling them to look for are things like hypervigilance. So yes, they may look quiet and calm, but actually keep an eye on their eyes. Are they hypervigilant? Are they, you know, kind of scouring the room, looking all over the place, subtle signs of stimming as well? So stimming in when you're masking can look more like hair twirling or toe tapping. It may not be as obvious as you might see in children who present more outwardly.
Speaker 2:I think also in their communications it can be more subtle how they have those social communication challenges. So perhaps they do have friends absolutely and for many autistic people friendships are really, really important. They absolutely do want to socialise but it exhausts them because you know they take so much effort and for our autistic girls quite often you will see high levels of um, like rejection, sensitivity, dysphoria, where they're taking things very, very personally or misinterpreting situations. Often the girls will be able to make friends, but maintaining those friendships can be challenging, and my daughter said to me actually not that long ago I said do you miss your friends being in school? And she said I do. But friendships are such hard work, mummy, because I just never understand what they're thinking. And when there's lots of them together, it's really hard work keeping up with what they're all saying and thinking and doing. So, wow, that's so insightful, isn't?
Speaker 2:it yeah, and it's so. That's you know for her. She finds the one-on-one situations much more helpful and actually that's another really common sign. You'll often you know if you're as if as a parent, you're being told oh you know, she can be a bit controlling in friendships or she won't let other children play. It may well be that behind that it's because it's not about control so much as about safety. It's much safer to navigate a friendship and play with one person than it is with a group, so it's just a defense mechanism.
Speaker 1:It's super interesting and it's, it's, it's. It's something that I don't think we know as parents, and I don't think it's something that teachers know either, or school people. And it's the same with ADHD as well. You see, similar, like girls generally get diagnosed five years after boys because you're not looking up for those subtler signs of the daydreaming, the looking out of the window, the maybe slight fidgeting it's not so pronounced as running around the classroom. So they're much subtler and they tend to want to please. So they, you know, mask as well and they try. And you know we're people pleasers. I think you know most of us can all relate to that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely the fawning, I think. So the fear of being in trouble and therefore just compliance, you know, is their sort of default position and it's easier just to compliance, you know, is their sort of default position and it's easier just to, you know, go along with things and nod. Um. I have this great example of that. Actually, my um, it was my daughter again. She was at school and they'd run out of um the option that she wanted to eat and she was distressed about this.
Speaker 2:Anyway, the head teacher said to her have the dumplings, they're great, they're really nice, have the dumplings. So she just nodded and took them and sat down and internally was crying inside. She tried the dumplings. When she got home, huge meltdown because she hates dumplings. I said why didn't you say you didn't want the dumplings? She said because he said they're really nice, you should have the dumplings. She just didn't feel able to just say, because you know he's an authoritative figure and he did it in a nice way, but she wasn't able to advocate for herself and say no, thank you, I don't like dumplings.
Speaker 1:You know, yeah, and then you had to mop up the yeah.
Speaker 2:And they say we didn't see that in school. She seemed fine. Yeah, I know, Because our neurodivergent girls are master chameleons.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and then that builds up, you know, and then that, then, and the social anxiety and just anxiety in general, and that lack of self-esteem and not fitting in builds up, builds up, builds up, and then you go into an emotional based school avoidance, which it sounds like it's kind of the trajectory that happened with your daughter yeah, and I think it's worth keeping in mind that these small triggers can can build into that.
Speaker 2:So when you under pick, you know we I have children at my school and they have EBSA and what I try to do is look at okay, they're saying that this lunchtime is really overwhelming. Let's try and trace this back because this has come from somewhere. So for you know, for my daughter I mean, she detests lunch halls. This is one of the many things that has made her hate a lunch hall. But there will be, you know, there's normally others. If you can peel back those layers and try and get back down to the root of where the issue came from, sometimes you might have a little bit more success in then alleviating some of that anxiety for them.
Speaker 1:Could you give us an example of that? Do you have a child that you can think of? No names, of course, that you could explain how you peel back that onion.
Speaker 2:Yes, so I had a child who lunch hall is a really good, really good example, really common. The lunch hall is a problem for children and didn't want to go to lunch hall. Couldn't really articulate why, and what transpired after peeling these layers back is actually. The child is very sensory to sound and there had been an incident when all of the children had been a little bit ruckus, they'd been a little bit loud, and one of the staff members had shouted quite loudly over the voices and that particular incident the combination of all these children being a little bit, you know, it does get loud, very echoey in a lunch hall Her voice then piercing through that in that moment, completely overwhelmed that child. Instead of melting down, they had a shutdown. So nobody picked up on this because they just internalize and actually what we then did was address how we could support around the um, around the vocals in the room, so ensuring that they had ear defenders.
Speaker 2:What I would stress is with things like that is often children don't want to appear different. So we try to get creative and I introduced in the school ear defenders for all. So I announced it in an assembly one morning that do you know what our loud? Our lunch hall is really loud. I don't know about you, but I really struggle with it sometimes because it's so echoey.
Speaker 2:So we're going to have a big box of ear defenders in the lunch hall and if you want to use them, you don't have to ask permission, you just use them. And let's be honest, who are we to say who needs to use them? Anyway, you know your own mind. And we put a box of ear defenders in all of the classrooms, and this did a number of things. One, that particular child started using the ear defenders in the lunch hall. Um, however, it meant that all the other children that felt it was too loud could access them too, and it also meant we started to pick up on children that we hadn't noticed maybe having difficulties with the noise levels in the classrooms, and so on. So, yeah, that's just one way you can be creative about it normalized it as well.
Speaker 2:It normalized it exactly, and you had a couple of kids who were like, oh yeah, I'm gonna wear the ear defenders, and one staff member, just you know. They raised the question well, what if they don't need them? What if someone wears them and they don't need? I said, what if they do? There's no harm done. And actually what they do is they normalize it to everybody else, and that's exactly what happened. So now, no one bats an eyelid. If you were, you know wary defenders, and I've been known to put a pair on myself now and then. So so yeah, it is that normalization and also empowering children to advocate for themselves. I need a pair of ear defenders. I don't want to ask them, I shouldn't have to.
Speaker 1:I'm just going to take yeah, yeah, like getting a tray, it's the same. You know, there's no difference. That's brilliant, absolutely brilliant, and it you know it. Uh, that little boy now that you had been talking about, is he okay now to go into lunch and eat with everyone else? I?
Speaker 2:mean he still has his wobbles and it's being react um, reactive to those, but he certainly has more autonomy. He's in the lunch hall more often than he's not in the lunch hall, um, and we're aware of it as well. So we can be a bit more mindful about. You know, tone of voices and that kind of thing. And, and often I say to parents, you know, with these solutions there's no magic wand. If you bring in something like ear defenders or whatever the proposed solution may be, it might work for a time and it might work three times out of four and you might still have difficulties, but so long as there's some improvement for the child and you're in the right direction, in the right trajectory, that's what counts right direction and the right trajectory.
Speaker 1:that's what counts. And it also goes back to your point about being able to advocate for yourself and to be able to acknowledge that this is challenging for you and to reach out for help that this is challenging and see that there are things that can be done. And maybe some days it's that the lunch hall is off. You know that you need to go to a quiet place, and that's fine as well, but it's kind of teaching that checking in with yourself, not just trying to suppress yourself to meet other people's needs, but making clear what your needs are. So that's it's lovely.
Speaker 1:You know it makes me sad to see that you're leaving leadership, because you sound like a pretty good you know person to have in a school, so that must have been a tough decision for you. What, like what was the breaking point for you in terms of you know cause? You sound fabulous.
Speaker 2:Thank you, I know I appreciate that. There was a breaking point, though, and it was that I nearly broke, if I'm honest. Yeah, absolutely I think so. It was around October last year. My daughter had reached quite a dark place. She was really struggling with school. Her EBSA was off the scale and in the school doing their best, but the setting isn't really working for her, and it was. It was bad, the meltdowns, the.
Speaker 2:I just didn't quite know what to do and I think, personally, I felt like I was failing. You know I'm. I know this is my gig. I train people in autism support.
Speaker 2:I am a head teacher in a primary school and I couldn't find a solution for her. I couldn't fix it, and that's what we try to do as parents. And then, on top of that, I would go into school and it's quite relentless. We are an amazing school, my school is incredible, and I'm so proud of the team. But the top down, pressure, pressure, and by that I do mean, you know, real top, my governors, again, they're amazing.
Speaker 2:But beyond that, when we look at, you know the funding sources and the policies I'm having to comply to, policies that I don't agree with, attendance policies, for example. Um, and we had we still do but children who desperately needed more support than we could give them. And yet we were just. You know, myself and the team were just coming up against closed doors and long waiting lists for children, and I got to point where I felt like I'm failing them as well, even though I'm trying my absolute hardest. And I think I realized I was just burning out, because I was just burning the candle. At both ends and and underneath all that, I had quite a dark resentment. Actually, I felt really resentful and quite frustrated with the system, and I wanted to be able to be vocal about that, which you know, when you are a serving head teacher, you've got to be a little bit careful what you say, et cetera, et cetera, and that's not really my style.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's not my style, so I just said no, I can't do this anymore. I've been doing it for 14 years. I've loved every minute, but I need to take this in a new direction and I wasn't quite sure what it was going to be. I started to. I'm almost finished with a therapy qualification, so I'll be a certified therapist. But the more I've leaned into it, the more advocacy work I'm doing and also working with other schools to support them, and I'm hoping that in that way I'm still helping children, helping parents, but possibly more widely. My team are great, so they'll carry on doing what they do in my little school and I'm going to take that out of it further.
Speaker 1:So that's great. You're not giving up on education and you're not giving up on children. You're just going down a different way, and a way that you're, dare I say, not handcuffed by the policies and procedures that you've been talking about.
Speaker 2:Yes, exactly that. And I'm hoping that, because I do understand the system very well and I know the policies and I know the guidance when parents are coming up against people who are not listening to them or who are not carrying things out appropriately. For example, I've been working with a client recently whose child's been suspended, permanently, actually excluded, but it's unlawful for various reasons, and they're left. You know, she's everything. What do I do with this? Where do I go? I hopefully I'm able to kind of unpick that for her and really talk it through with a head teacher's perspective, because I can understand where the school is also coming from, uh, which gives a balanced uh argument, if you will, when you go back to them. So, yeah, that's the goal it's not biased.
Speaker 1:You have because you're able to wear both of those hats you can kind of see it from both perspectives.
Speaker 2:And I'm really keen to support teachers and heads as well, because I think you know the struggle is real. It is not a fun job. At times it's relentless. You know you don't have the resources or the funding you need. Your staff are exhausted. They are stripping away staffing levels in schools. It's really, really hard for them too. So I'm quite keen to show parents that actually it's not all the teacher's fault. Often it's just a pure lack of support for them too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I mean it's multifactorial right. First of all, as we started this conversation, not even identifying that these children need help because they're not fitting the classical views or or or. Well, I, I've I've heard from teachers, and I know this in medicine as well we're not actually taught that much about neurodiversity period Very, very little training, very little training.
Speaker 2:Um, we had a training teacher in recently and I asked her so she's Nick, this is, you know. Look, we're in June, so she was in last month and she's due to go into the class in September. And I said can I just ask you how much training have you had on neurodivergence? And she said oh, we've done some SEN training.
Speaker 2:I said, okay, but specifically around, you know, say, neurodivergence in girls or different diagnoses and and areas. And she said, no, we just did an afternoon on scn. And what we just did, this just did an afternoon. Okay, because that's not enough, uh, it's not even nearly enough doing the tip of the iceberg is it not even?
Speaker 2:the tip of the iceberg and you know I always liken it to surgery. You wouldn't send a surgeon in to do surgery and you know, actually they've just done a mvq, level two in. You know you have to have the right skills and qualifications. So we're setting our trainee teachers up, we're setting teachers up to fail if we don't equip them with the knowledge they need and unfortunately they don't have the knowledge. I have had so many things to me said by professionals which are completely wrong, completely misaligned, of what the actual truth is around girls of neurodivergence. You know, for example, the what I was saying about.
Speaker 1:Well, they, she makes eye contact so she couldn't be autistic and I mean you're not the first person to say that, that you know clinicians are saying that. But, in fairness, again, to defend clinicians as you are defending teachers, we're not taught about it either. And I've asked you know more recently graduated doctors as well, and it's not big on the topic list. So the misconceptions of what autism is, what ADHD is, puts up barriers, and then the misinformation on social media and other places. You know, teachers and doctors aren't immune to that either. So it creates, you know, and the fact that, oh, it's, it's over-diagnosed now it's over-populized, you know it's.
Speaker 1:It's so much that people are fighting against which could be solved with a little bit of education and not just half a day. But it should be part of, you know, inset days. It should be part of, of, you know, uh, cpd points for doctors and stuff like that, because it's so important, because when you pick up on these signs early enough, then you avoid some of the long-term consequences. You know, which I mean EBSA is becoming a big thing, you know it's. It's, it's huge in terms of how many children are experiencing that, and early intervention can help to prevent that, in my opinion. Do you want to talk a little bit about it, because I know that's what you also advocate on EBSA as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I do a lot of work on EBSA. I offer training for parents on EBSA and for schools. It's something obviously close to my heart and possibly a little bit ironic because currently my daughter is completely out of school, um, but the point really that I make is exactly what you said early intervention with EBSA is is crucial and there is there. There's a lot of rhetoric out there around what you you know how to support children and some of it isn't actually all that helpful. So I try to bring in a way which is supportive and reflective of the child's actual needs, because what people often get wrong is they try to fix the child rather than trying to fix the environment or the source of the problem.
Speaker 2:For our neurodivergent children in particular and there are lots of reasons for EBSA not just being neurodivergent children in particular and there are lots of reasons for ebbs are not just, um, being neurodivergent. There are lots of other reasons a child can end up having school emotional based school avoidance, but the environment in particular can be extremely overwhelming and just too much, and the drain of masking or the pressure of testing. So it's about trying to find reasonable adjustments, for example, that will work for the child and support. Quite often I hear parents say that schools may be pushing back on the reasonable adjustments. Well, we can't do that for one and not for others, and what I'm trying to do is show parents one what their rights are and what rights are around reasonable adjustments, but also to show schools that it doesn't have to be done in a way which is detrimental to other children or looks unfair, because we all need to be treated as individuals.
Speaker 1:Um yeah, so no, you know it's. I mean, and a lot of schools or a lot of policies of how to deal with it are kind of archaic and, as you you say, put the pressure on the individual. You know, come, sit in the car park, go, go touch the pole, you know these kinds of things where it's the child needs to overcome their fear, their anxiety, their, you know it's all on the kid and the kid is already suffering. So it's, it doesn't work. I think a lot of the current policies that are out there don't work to help kids get back into school again. And you know it's challenging and maybe and maybe the school isn't the right school, and that might also be the answer as well. So how do you advise, or what is your advice for parents who, like yourself, actually what do you do? You know you don't want to force your kid to go into school when they are so anxious, and so you know having a meltdown about it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think I think when we do force them in, it can have the opposite impact, because you just actually add to the trauma. And I know, you know, when we spoke before Olivia, we we had a similar story, didn't we? And I said to you, I got to a point with my daughter where, you know, I've been in education 14 years, so I am a little institutionalized. In that I really felt that you know, school is important and I must get you in and you know I'm pushing these attendance policies. I'm a head teacher. I got to get my own child into school and it was a Wednesday afternoon and she, uh, I was like you know, we really have to go, come on, we have to get out the door.
Speaker 2:And she just crumbled into this little heap on the floor and began to sob and she said I just can't do this, I can't do this.
Speaker 2:So I even know, come on, we need to go, mummy, I can't keep pretending. And I just looked at her lying there and it was like something cracked inside of me too and I thought, no, we're done, we're done with this, we're not, I'm not doing this anymore. You know, I, and when I looked back, I just I had like this flash of events, you know, before my I just thought back to a couple of years ago when, actually, she tried to climb out of a moving car because she didn't want to go to school, and all those times that she'd been peeled off me at the gate and and taken in and the door closed and her little face was up against them, you know. And I had to walk away and and I kept telling myself, you know, that's, that's best for her, it's not best for her, it clearly wasn't. And I reached this point where I really, when I realized that and I went, no, you know, what okay?
Speaker 2:I hear, and it was this look of relief on her face. She went what really? I went, yeah, we're done. We're done and don't get me wrong, I'm not saying at that point I went right, I'm never taking her in again, we're not going to do this. But I really started to put my foot down with the school and say I am not dragging her in. And they were, you know, and still are, trying their best. I'm not saying that they weren't, but the amount of things that should have been in place for her or that would have further helped.
Speaker 2:When I looked over the the you know, her whole school time, it hadn't been consistent, it hadn't been followed through, and that's what we need to make sure happens with these children and I think, really listening to their voice as well and allowing them to be a part of the solution. So there were times following that, when she then was able to go in and we talked with the school. They were amazing what things would help and she made suggestions. For example, she said it would really help if she had an iPod so she could listen to music in the classroom when she works. And they were great.
Speaker 2:No problem at all, put it in place and you know it did. It did work for a while. I mean, I think for her it's the mainstream setting, isn't for her, so that was just never going to be sustainable in the long term. But for lots of other children, putting those things in place like ear pods, or like having a soft start to the day or coming in a different entrance Actually, when the child is allowed to help design what that looks like I've seen huge successes where children have completely turned it around.
Speaker 1:And, to your point, early intervention. So if you do that early on, before they've been let down by the adults in their life, really they've made it very clear that they don't want to go into the school, that they're struggling and their thoughts are just not listened to and they're forced. I think it was. Which book am I thinking of? It was either Eliza Fricker or Naomi Campbell, I'm not sure, but it's the burning building kind of thing. And we just keep telling them go back in the burning building.
Speaker 2:Yes, that image sums it up perfectly. We've got to stop, yeah, forcing them into a burning building because, like I said, it's, you know, it's not about fixing the child and, you know, trying to force them to overcome it. And I agree with you this whole oh leah, just touch the gate outside. Oh, now go two steps in. No, what you're doing is you're asking them just to squash that horrible feeling further down inside them and at some point it wouldn't come out.
Speaker 1:So you may get them through primary school doing that, but then you're probably going to hit secondary and when you can't throw them over your shoulder to drag them through the gate, you're really stuffed, or you know I mean, I joke about it but or worse, when you look at the testimonies from from children, well, from adults who have come through the system, the other side, the trauma they talk of, it's harrowing yeah, the impact it's had on them and if you put it into adult terms, you know, if you were going to a job which you found really challenging, was really horrible, you know, and let's say, your partner, you know, said to you okay, I'm sorry, I'm going to, like you know, my my most embarrassing not embarrassing or humiliating, or just the moment, my watershed moment was when I dressed my daughter, who was teachers, 11 or 12 at the time, and that was just not okay.
Speaker 1:You know it wasn't okay, I was forcing her. But if we had that same thing, if someone forced me to get dressed and go into work that I hated where I was, whatever was happening in there was causing me you, just you wouldn't, you wouldn't imagine it, it wouldn't happen. But yet it's okay to do to children and to young adults and it just it's. You know it doesn't work and as you said, it's. You know it doesn't work and, as you said, it doesn't solve the problem. Even you know. That's the funny thing there's been no evidence that it solves the problem. It hasn't solved the problem for any children.
Speaker 2:It's just made it worse and I think you know when.
Speaker 2:What you were saying there actually highlights the problem with today's education system because it doesn't reflect the working world. It doesn't prepare children for the society we live in. You know it is about the majority of schools, it's compliance and crowd control, particularly secondary schools. You know and you hear of secondary schools locking toilets doors and children are not allowed to get a drink, you know, until their break time and you know the clothes that they wear are rigid and often schools won't make allowances for children who maybe struggle with a tie or certain shoes. When you apply this to the working world we live in, where we want our children to become adults who can show autonomy, who can look after themselves, well, they're going to need to know how to recognize when they need a drink or water or when they need the toilet. And if you just stopped, if you stopped an adult doing that in the working world, we'd be saying that you know our human rights are being breached, yet we don't allow our children to have those same privileges.
Speaker 1:It just sort of blows my mind a bit, to be honest, yeah, and we have programs like access to work program, where we, you know, we put things in place. I mean, we, we do a lot in the workforce but, yeah, it's, it's completely because children must do what they're told, which you know it's, yeah, it's it, it boggles the mind and I'm hoping that you know, through discussions like we're having now, through your advocacy, through so many other wonderful parents that I meet and educators that I meet, that this is going to start changing that people are. You know that, that that wheel is starting to to to turn in terms you know of what parents can do and and ultimately, like you have said, sometimes, there's not, there's not enough you can put in place in the environment that your child's at, it's the wrong environment for your child you know, and and that's you know, especially with neurodiverse children that can be the case.
Speaker 1:You know that mainstream people cannot meet their needs, and so it's, it's a it's. There is no win there. You know you need to find another placement, which is not easy either. No, and that's a whole nother ballgame, isn't it?
Speaker 2:Let's not go there. But exactly, and you know, there are so many educators who do absolutely agree with all of this and who are fighting the good fight, as I say, and I just think the more we amplify those voices, you know, the better for our children.
Speaker 1:You know, I spoke to some interesting people on another podcast which will be airing in the future, about the online school environment. That is just flourishing right now. You know where, you know they're under the same kind of requirements as normal schools and you know regulations and stuff like that. But you can learn at home and they use AI and stuff like that. And you just wonder where education is going to go. If you had a crystal ball, because, look, things are going to really change. They are changing, people are becoming more vocal. We're getting more tools. Education is outdated. It doesn't work. If you had a crystal ball or a magic wand, where would you see education or where would you like to?
Speaker 2:see education going? I'm not sure I see it going and I am really concerned by a lot of the proposed changes, particularly for SEN children. The current government is sort of saying, on the one hand, that they want to reform SEN and then on the other hand you know there are a lot of it potentially is rumours, but there's talk obviously in the news at the moment about EHCPs being scrapped, about SEN tribunals now being potentially withdrawn. I mean it's really scary stuff and that actually makes me not want to imagine what the future is like, because I'm quite concerned and I think that if parents and educators don't band together and say enough, then it's looking pretty bleak. On the other hand, there is a mass movement at the moment towards home education, towards these ai providers, towards online learning. I would like to see a massive overhaul. I mean, if I could wave a magic wand, I was thinking about it funny enough for a post.
Speaker 2:Uh, I was thinking, oh, I'll have to come. You know, I'd like to do this as a post, but if I I could wave a magic wand, I would make all schools very similar to the school that we are trying to get my daughter in. So it is a specialist provision, but the whole point of it is about environment least half, because one of the biggest problems is 30 children being supervised by one adult. How are you meant to take a child out for movement breaks? You know we have this in my school. We want to run sensory circuits after lunch every day. How do you do that if you have one adult and the other adult needs to go on a lunch break? It's really tough making it sustainable. So smaller class sizes.
Speaker 1:And just to interrupt there also, like if you had adults, okay, you know, when you've had like 30 people, you try and let's say, you have a workshop with 30 people in a corporate world and you have to keep them entertained for eight hours and no, you're going to have people on their phones, You're going to. You, you, you, you couldn't keep. We couldn't get adults to comply the way we were asking children to comply.
Speaker 2:And, and what happens in those scenarios is that when a child becomes dysregulated, the teacher is absolutely stuffed. How are they meant to help this child and then supervise the other 29? And then, oh, hang on, one needs the toilet, oh, and then, actually, you know all those things that crop up, someone else has grazed a knee, or someone else has poked someone in the elbow, whatever it is going on in the class. It's not possible, it's not sustainable and I actually think it's really unsafe. Um, and we do have a TA in all our classrooms, but it's been really hard keeping keeping that in place with the limited funding that schools have.
Speaker 2:Um, so I think the other thing I would do but there needs to be money for it is all schools would have therapeutic interventions. You know, without an ed psych, you have to have an ed psych, or at least allocated ones, that come to you for a day a week. Um, intervention therapy. You know, therapeutic art therapy, things like that that are just the norm. You know, therapeutic art therapy, things like that that are just the norm, you know. So schools aren't thinking how are we going to make all this stuff happen from an EHCP? It's just there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you don't need an EHCP for it.
Speaker 2:I would also just improve the capacity of teachers by obviously training them all properly, particularly neurodivergence. This is something I'm beginning to take out from September and I've got one trust who I'm working with who are fantastic. I've got about 20 SENCOs all coming along, all going to be learning about neurodivergence a whole day and then taking it off to their schools. But that just needs to be more widespread and I think it does need to be affordable, because there are some providers that do it but it is quite expensive, which is challenging for schools. I would also remove testing. Oh, sats, please, what. And do you know what? While I'm here and I've got all these people hopefully listening, you know SATs for year six, the phonics testing, the screening and even GCSEs. Why are we forcing children to take so many in subjects they are not interested in? What a way to kill someone's passion for learning.
Speaker 1:And I mean I would not. I'm a doctor. You know I would not pass the English GCSEs because I am dyslexic, I cannot spell, I have no grammar and I rely heavily on Grammarly. You know, I've written a book now, okay, because I use Grammarly. But if I was to take the English GCSEs, I would fail, okay. So you know what is that saying? They're not fit for purpose.
Speaker 2:They're not fit for purpose and I'm not sure who they're for. And you know, as an example, my son is dyslexic and he is currently having real difficulties with Spanish. He hates Spanish lessons. He hates it for passion. He finds it so difficult he cannot spell a single word in English, let alone in Spanish. And he's, you know, I keep saying to him can he not drop this subject? It's making him miserable. He does not want to do this for a GCSE. You know, in other areas he gets, you know, the highest levels, level eights or whatever they are. You know, really great stuff in in the topics he enjoys. Why are we forcing him to do the Spanish? Now, don't get me wrong. If you like Spanish, do Spanish. But it just all it does is make him not really want to go to school on the days that he has to do that lesson, which seems really counterproductive. Why could they not give them study periods like they do in other countries?
Speaker 1:Or things that are of interest to them. We don't ever tap into what's of interest to our children in school.
Speaker 2:Well, that's the problem with the national curriculum.
Speaker 1:Let's get rid of that. Alongside the gcses.
Speaker 2:In our magic it was next on my list a complete national curriculum redesign where children's interests are factored into what they learn. Because this drive and you know what I have to confess in my earlier teaching days I was an advocate for the knowledge curriculum. Oh, how wrong I was. And and I see that now I'm sorry and if anyone knows me they'll be chuckling but trying to cram you know, as many facts as possible into a child's head just for the point of having facts. What a pointless exercise.
Speaker 1:And we don't need it anymore, thank God. You know what I mean, and a lot of kids with neurodiversity have working memory problems. I can't remember. The only fact I remember is the Battle of Hastings, 1066. For some reason, that is the only fact that has stayed with me for my life. But we don't need it. We have you know. You don't need any facts anymore. You can look everything up. So we're not. Education should be about preparing kids for life, and it's failing. It's actually crippling and handicapping and giving children anxiety and not setting them up for life, you know, and then hamstringing them, because if you haven't passed your GCSEs and this is scary to me a lot of doors are closed.
Speaker 2:A lot of doors are closed.
Speaker 1:Most doors are closed. I mean, I went to school really early myself.
Speaker 2:Ironically, olivia, I was a school truant. No, yeah, seriously, really early myself. Um, ironically, olivia, I was a school truant. Yeah, seriously, I didn't. I hated school. Uh, funnily enough, I didn't go to school and I in. So my last year at school this was before this is when you could leave at 16 I just flat out refused to go. And then they enticed me back um and I only had a handful of GCSEs and then I left. So I had like maybe four, it wass. And then I left, so I had like maybe four, it was pretty dire. And then I left and I did actually cotton on quite quickly Like oh, oops, you know I don't want to just work behind a bar for the rest of my life. I wanted to do other things. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but I knew that.
Speaker 1:I wanted to. You can't even become a hairdresser without English and math.
Speaker 2:I've heard yeah, I mean, you can't even get into college, you can't? You know all those vocational subjects, um. So I went a really long-winded way because I then had to go back and do GCSEs while working three part-time jobs and then I managed to, uh, do a foundation level and I did. I did go to university, but it took me a long time, you know, to get there and I had to go a bit of a roundabout way. But, yeah, I didn't really go to school very much.
Speaker 1:And it's interesting to me that you mentioned the government earlier on is that the things that they're trying to affect change are really going to be disabling the people that need the most support getting rid of the HTPs, making everyone go to mainstream, cutting down specialist schools all know all those things. They're not going to help. They're not really looking at the root problem. They're not looking at education as the problem.
Speaker 2:No, they're not. And attendance policy as well. You know there's this big drive and they keep going on about you know they've introduced these fines. You know, and you shouldn't be taking the children out of school and you must get them in, and there's this pressure now. Well, hang on a minute. Do you want to sit and look at why the children don't want to go in? Yeah, you know, let's, let's. You know that needs to happen. There needs to be an overhaul, and I know teachers think the same way.
Speaker 1:You know, because they I think you'll see more and more kids leaving school, sadly, like if I were to do it again, I don't know that I would be going to school with my daughter. Do you know what I mean? And with all the things that you can access, you know. I think that that might be what causes the system to break.
Speaker 1:But you know, I think alternatives are cropping up and alternative ways of doing things are cropping up and I think that it's going to become. I think, you know, we need to look at how personalized life is. You know how, how we we work as as individuals. Now we work from home, we do things. Everything's very personalized, and education needs to become personalized, just like healthcare needs to become personalized too. There's not a one size fits all, you know. So I think, hopefully, and with technology, this is my magic wand, or maybe my Pollyanna optimism that we will be able to meet some of these challenges that we now have, because we will have the tools that enable us to personalize lesson plans, do things differently, be able to tap into kids' areas of passion and things like that, and support them in areas of weakness in an individualized manner, because that's really, I think, what needs to change. We don't have a homogenized sausage factory that produces factory workers anymore. We don't even have jobs for them if they come out of that factory.
Speaker 1:In fact, kids that are neurotypical, that go to Cambridge and Oxford and come out with great scores, are not getting jobs right now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the whole system needs to shake up, and I think parents are voting with their feet. Like I said earlier, parents are home educating now, but shouldn't have to, and I think more and more parents are feeling pushed out of the system and led to believe that's their only option, and I just don't think that's acceptable. Our children are entitled to a full and exciting education which sets them up for life, and the current system doesn't do that.
Speaker 1:So it has been so fantastic talking to you, sarah, I'm sure. I will speak to you again. I'd love to hear about what you're doing with your new adventures in September, and I would love to end my podcast with three top tips that you would give to parents who are maybe struggling right now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I have three top tips. So my first one and I say this to everyone and I put this on my Insta quite a lot the first one is to log everything, and this is this is really, when you look in hindsight, go, oh yeah, I should have started that. Log. Then Just get a notepad or, better still, download the one that I have for free on my Instagram page. Log everything, every concern, in chronological order, that is going on the minute you start to suspect something and I mean everything from meltdowns at home to a conversation where the teacher said there was an incident to you know, you requesting a reasonable adjustment and it not being in place. Log, log, log, log log because you need that evidence, and so often the reason we are unable to get the right support in place is because there isn't enough of an evidence trail. So that's really important, really key.
Speaker 2:The second one is to ask for help. There are so many people out there that will help you. So if you are feeling that things are not right, for goodness sake, reach out, because there's a whole SEN community. There are people like me. Yes, absolutely, but if you don't want to go down that route, there are other independent providers. You've got the local authority ones and what I would say here as well. What I wanted to stress is everybody needs help. Sometimes I am an advocate. I will fight for you, but sometimes I need help and that's okay. So we can feel like if we can't do it ourselves, maybe we're failing or we're not good enough. We shouldn't have to ask for help. But it's fine. We all need help sometimes, so reach out.
Speaker 1:It's so true and you know, in the podcast notes we have a link to the send parenting private WhatsApp group and there's about 150, 160 moms on there and it's so amazing how helpful they are and everyone's on different parts of their journey in that and you know someone who's walked in those shoes before and can help you.
Speaker 1:It's just amazing. And there are other groups like that too. There's Facebook groups, instagram groups. But find your tribe wherever you feel comfortable, put what's out there and I can tell you you will have a response where people will say I've had that too. I've experienced that as well. This is what I've tried. Try this, because there is no one size fits all and you're not alone, and that so many people feel so alone because you're you're not given like the special card to the same community. You kind of you feel very alone and stumble into it, you know?
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly that, and that was I mean, that was my third tip really is about finding your tribe, and I really recommend trying to find people within that tribe who are a few steps ahead of you, because sometimes, when we only surround ourselves with people who are in the same boat, we all feel like we're sinking and it can create a sense of hysteria Ah, you know, quick, just keep throwing the water outside.
Speaker 1:And you can feel some of those WhatsApp groups or Facebook groups. They can get quite toxic and my advice is jump out, jump out.
Speaker 2:And find yourself. You know someone who's built a slightly bigger ship. They're ahead of you in their journey. I have a really dear friend. She's absolutely incredible. She went through a lot of this stuff but you know, five, six years ago. So when I go to her she kind of gives me that safe space of you will survive, you will come out the other side, you will be okay. And I suppose just a quick fourth tip is just trust your instincts and your gut. If you think your child is neurodivergent or if you believe they are struggling or you think something's not right, do not allow anyone to silence that voice. If you know you know your child, you're their parent. Nobody knows your child like you do, so don't let anyone tell you otherwise. I think those are great.
Speaker 1:four tips, thank you.
Speaker 2:I had to sneak a fourth in, sorry.
Speaker 1:It's been an absolute pleasure having you on the podcast and thank you for reaching out and thank you for sharing and being so open, honest and just relatable.
Speaker 2:Thank you very much and I hope that all the listeners found it helpful. And, yeah, thank you for having me. It's been amazing.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening. Send Parenting Tribe. If you haven't already, please click on the link in the show notes to join us in the private Send Parenting WhatsApp community. It's been wonderful to be able to communicate with everyone in the community and for us to join together to help each other to navigate challenges and to also celebrate successes. Wishing you and your family a really good week ahead. Bye you.