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SEND Parenting Podcast
Welcome to the Send Parenting Podcast. I'm your neurodiverse host, Dr Olivia Kessel, and, more importantly, I am a mother to my wonderfully neurodivergent daughter, Alexandra, who really inspired this podcast.
As a veteran in navigating the world of neurodiversity, I have uncovered a wealth of misinformation, alongside many answers and solutions that were never taught to me in medical school or in any of the parenting handbooks.
Each week on this podcast, I will be bringing the experts to your ears to empower you on your parenting crusade.
SEND Parenting Podcast
EP 131: Self-regulation for neurodivergent children with Nicola McAllister from The Regulated Child
What if your child's meltdowns or shutdowns aren't actually about behavior, but biology?
Nicola McAllister, education consultant with 30+ years of experience and mother to an autistic son, reveals the science behind self-regulation that transforms how we support our neurodivergent children. Through her compassionate lens, we discover that what looks like "difficult behavior" is actually a stress response—our children's bodies responding to perceived threats with the only tools they currently have available.
The conversation unveils Nicola's brilliant "brain house" model, explaining how our children's brains develop from the bottom up, and how stress can trap them in the "basement" of survival responses. When traditional parenting approaches fail, it's because we're trying to reason with a child who physiologically cannot access their reasoning brain in that moment.
Instead, Nicola guides us through her self-regulation framework: Goal, Predict, Plan, Do, Review—a collaborative approach that builds executive function skills through practice rather than punishment. Through vivid real-world examples, including her son's struggle with a Mario t-shirt at a social club, she demonstrates how validating our children's concerns and building plans together creates pathways to success.
Perhaps most powerfully, she introduces the "Regulate, Relate, Reason" approach—understanding that our children need to feel calm before they can connect, and only then can they reason. This shifts our parenting from reactive to intentional, what Nicola calls "premiership parenting"—requiring us to be several steps ahead, carefully considering our words and approaches.
Whether you're struggling with morning routines, hygiene battles, or emotional outbursts, this episode provides both the understanding and practical tools to build meaningful connections with your child. Listen now and transform your approach to supporting your child's developing nervous system.
Nicole Mcallister Website: The Regulated Child
Click here to join our Private SEND Parenting WhatsApp Community
www.sendparenting.com
Welcome to the Send Parenting Podcast. I'm your neurodiverse host, dr Olivia Kessel, and, more importantly, I'm mother to my wonderfully neurodivergent daughter, alexandra, who really inspired this podcast. As a veteran in navigating the world of neurodiversity in a UK education system, I've uncovered a wealth of misinformation, alongside many answers and solutions that were never taught to me in medical school or in any of the parenting handbooks. Each week on this podcast, I will be bringing the experts to your ears to empower you on your parenting crusade. If you're looking for a safe space to connect with other parents navigating their neurodiverse journey, our private WhatsApp community offers support, insights and real conversations with like-minded parents who truly understand. Join the conversation today. You can find the link in the show notes.
Speaker 1:In this episode, I'm joined by Nicola McAllister, an education consultant, trainer and mother to an autistic son. With over 30 years of experience supporting children with additional needs. Nicola brings a deeply compassionate and actually really practical approach to understanding behavior, not as something to control but as a communication rooted in biology and development. We will explore with her her self-regulation model, a framework that helps us adults shift from managing meltdowns to actually building meaningful connections. Nicola's work is all about translating complex neuroscience into everyday routines that truly support our children's nervous systems, helping them to feel safe, seen and supported. Whether you're a parent, a teacher, a carer, this conversation will give you tools you can use right away and maybe even shift how you see your child's behavior entirely.
Speaker 1:So welcome, nicola. It is such a pleasure to have you on the Send Parenting podcast and I'm so excited because today we're going to dive into a topic of the biology behind self-regulation, or, dare I say, the lack of self-regulation. And this is, I think, probably one of the main areas of conflict at home is this lack of self-regulation, both from our children, who are neurodiverse, and from parents, who may or may not be neurodiverse. So this is really like a stinging nettle, I think, for neurodiverse families. So I'm really happy to have your expertise to unpick this topic. But before we start, could you tell us a little bit about your journey? I will do.
Speaker 2:How lovely to see you, dr Olivia. Well, my journey started almost 30 years ago, so I actually come, although you know we're here on a parenting podcast. My journey starts from a professional capacity. So I started life as a primary school teacher back in the mid 1990s and I worked in mainstream settings but very quickly moved into specialist settings for children who were experiencing social, emotional and behavioural needs and that probably was the beginning of me being interested in behaviour. And actually, you know, what we see is just the surface. You know it's the erupting volcano, but let's get underneath and see what's going on.
Speaker 2:So that work took me then into the world of foster care. So I worked for a number of years as an education advisor within the foster care sector. So it was really kind of supporting carers at home to understand regulation, look beyond behavior, understand how trauma and you know, attachments or lack of them impact on a child's developing body and brain and what we can do at home to better support our children. And then also working with staff in schools as well and looking at how do we develop trauma-informed practice and trauma-informed spaces that support our children. So that's kind of my background. It kind of comes from those kind of two pronged of of home life and education life yeah, and you?
Speaker 1:you also have it personally as well. You're a mum to a neurodiverse child, aren't you?
Speaker 2:I am indeed. Yes, and and that's that was the real kind of turning point for me, I think, was, um, you know I've got two children, my daughter's 12 and my son is 10. And really quite early on, you know, as mums I think we pick up and we notice things and you know, I noticed quite early on that maybe he wasn't hitting his developmental milestones as he should. You know, the physical stuff that you could see was all there. But there were other things, there were more subtle things and actually, looking back now, probably there were a lot more red flags that I kind of didn't pick up on. In hindsight that that you do, um, but yeah, he struggled as a toddler. He really, really struggled in nursery. We only managed a couple of months in nursery. He was functioning under extreme levels of stress. You know, when I look back again, you know, as a parent and a professional in this field, I should have known better.
Speaker 2:But there's also that element where I think you know there's the expectation of, you know, the child goes to nursery, then goes to school and you kind of, and you go with that. So you know, know it got to the point where I was having to force him into the car. He was throwing his shoes off, I had him wrapped in a blanket, there were two of us lifting him into into nursery, where he would scream for half an hour, then we'd leave. And there was one day, my daughter that the nursery was in the school and my daughter came running through the playground, it was playtime and she was like mum, mum, what are you doing? What are you doing? And I thought, what am I doing? I thought, right, this stops. And I just said to his, his teaching assistant at the time, this stops now and I'm just going to take him home. And we did.
Speaker 2:And then, you know, the next two years he spent at home and that was, I think, a turning point at me at just thinking, right, okay, you know that this isn't about the expectations of what a child should be doing, it's actually about my little boy and what he needs. So, yeah, so I've basically now, you know, I feel so blessed and fortunate to be in a position to have the knowledge and the understanding that I do from a professional capacity and I now look really, you know, and through the lens of trauma, when I am supporting my little boy, because our neurodivergent children are living in a world that wasn't designed for them and you know we're asking them to function within situations that are extremely stressful, and that's what developmental trauma is it's prolonged periods of stress. So you know that just took my parenting, you know, on a whole different level. You know it went from kind of fairly decent parenting to A-game parenting, as I think we all are, you know, as as parents of children with special educational needs.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, and I mean it's lovely because you have you have both of those hats. So I'm really super, super interested because it's, it's, it's not just the the theory, you, you, you're living our life like we are, which is just so relatable. Um, you know, shifting from like that, that discussion of behavior problems, to the biology behind it is so key and you know, you, you know you touched upon this when you, when you started was, you know the behavior is like the tip of the iceberg. You know you can really miss the underlying needs. Can you explore that with us a little bit more?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you know behavior is really emotive and you know it's contagious, it triggers us. When our child is triggered, you know we automatically become triggered and respond to that as well. But the thing about behavior and the irony is is that actually if all we do is focus on the behavior, we never make any positive shifts, we don't move forward. So you know, it's really kind of trying to kind of understand what might be going on. You know behaviour is about communication. It's about our child being in a part of their brain where they can't reason, they can't rationalise, so they're showing us the stuff that's really hard for them at any given time through their behaviour. And you know traditionally how we respond to that is through consequences. You know a child does something. So therefore, you know we take something away or we impose some sort of sanction on them, or, in England, we lock them up in a room.
Speaker 2:We do, we do.
Speaker 1:I think Scotland's a bit better at that than England is. But you know, yeah, and as you say, there is no proof that it does. It has no impact actually on it. It makes things worse.
Speaker 2:It makes things a whole lot worse and for a number of reasons. You know we're closing the stable door after the horse is bolted. A number of reasons. You know we're closing the stable door after the horse has bolted. You know we're not really getting to the core of what are the underlying needs here that are not being met.
Speaker 2:And also, you know, if all we do is we throw in kind of consequences and we react to behaviour, we never give our child the opportunity to practise the skill base that they need to manage that situation next time. Or you know that, the opportunity to nurture relationships or to practice repair. And I mean I'm not saying that there shouldn't be any response from us, but for me it's more, when something's happened you know to look at those logical responses. But but more importantly it's to try and kind of figure out, okay, what's maybe going on here that's evoked this response. And if I can get to the core, you know, of what the problem or the issue is, then I can help my child next time that situation comes and we can minimize the likelihood of that behavior happening again.
Speaker 1:Which is totally the opposite of what we do. You know we punish, we have consequences and that then feeds into that kind of trauma that we're putting on our child. You know and you've worked a lot with children who come from trauma backgrounds in foster care. But I also like your kind of point that actually our neurodiverse children are experiencing trauma and that's why they're acting out. Yes, absolutely.
Speaker 2:I mean trauma is a stress response, you know, and when we talk about stress responses, you know if we think back to you know the days of hunter-gatherers, you know when you know the hunter was out in the forest, you know foraging for food, and they turn around the corner and all of a sudden they're met by a big, hairy, grisly beast. You know, if the hunter kind of stopped and thought and rationalized the situation, they'd be dead. So the body automatically goes into survival response, it goes into fight, flight, collapse, and so you either you know the body gets mobilized and the, you know the, the, the blood's pumping through the body, the heart beats up. You know we're mobilized, we're ready to fight or we're ready to run, or if, if it's that the beast is far too big and we don't have a chance against it, we just drop and we play dead and actually the body then goes into conservation mode and you know the, the, the heart rate reduces and the temperature reduces and it holds on to food because actually it's the, the body is all about survival. Our kind of core, kind of primary need is all about surviving in the world and actually, although know here we are in 2025 and we're not out foraging for food and being met by big grizzly beasts, but that primitive stress response system is still there, said no, or it could be our facial expression or a tone of voice that's confused them or has been unpredictable, or we've given them a ham sandwich rather than a cheese sandwich, or they opened up their banana and there's a bruise on it.
Speaker 2:You know all these tiny, tiny little, what we see as insignificant things for our children who are hyperilant and that can evoke a stress response. And they are back being that hunter out in the forest with a big grizzly beast. And you know, when our body's functioning under those high levels of stress, it's awash with adrenaline and cortisol, these hormones that are really, really important to keep us safe and to mobilize us when there's a threat. But actually having a cheese sandwich rather than a ham sandwich isn't a real threat and being told no isn't a real threat.
Speaker 2:But our children's body is responding in that way and unfortunately for children, for example, who are autistic or neurodivergent children, you know their bodies are perceiving threat everywhere all of the time. So they are functioning under heightened levels of stress all of the time. So their little bodies are awash with stress hormones a lot of the time in comparison to neurotypical children. So what happens is their stress response becomes even more sensitized, which again then works against them. So they see even more threat. And I think if we understand that, that actually it's not just about behavior, it's not about what we see as we see the kicking, the screaming, the biting, the spitting, the throwing, the smashing, the banging, the slamming that's what we see as a result. But actually what is going on underneath is almost as if our child is trapped in a burning house because internally their threat response system, their stress response system, is just doing what it needs to do biologically to keep the body alive. They are not in the top thinking reasoning part of their brain?
Speaker 1:No, and there's the flip side of it too, which is they can completely shut down, as well as your description as well where they just become almost catatonic. There's the two sides to that, depending on how their body reacts to that stressor and it's. You know, it was such a light bulb moment for me to understand this. You know it's not them. You know being difficult. Did you have a light bulb moment? You know, as a parent, for me, like it just it changed my entire view really.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was, I think, you know, at the same time when I was working in foster care was the same time when my son was about kind of two years old, and that was my kind of real realisation that and it's interesting you're talking about that kind of catatonic state and that would be his go to state. He would be much more likely to go into complete shutdown as opposed to going to complete meltdown. So you know, if he was at home and something happened and we couldn't always identify what it was, and that's the thing, because a lot of the time it can be a culmination, a build up of lots of little things that causes his body and brain just to shut down. So what he would do is he would crawl commando style on his hands and knees into his bedroom, he would close the blinds, he would get under the duvet and he would be there. He would lie in a darkened room and it could sometimes be for an hour, for two hours, an incomplete shutdown, and I would be in the room with him down and I would be in the room with him. But you know, I was very aware at that point that any kind of movement or any kind of chat from me would actually tip him even further. And one of the things that that we were really kind of working with now was working with a lot of my foster carers.
Speaker 2:At that point we were using the Bruce Perry work which is called it's the fancy name is the neural sequential model. But the idea is that you know, like information, that our child's brain develops from the bottom to the top and the inside out, and information goes into the brain from the bottom to the top. And so you know, to keep it super simple and I'm not a neuroscientist, I just like to kind of understand the science and the research and translate it into simple terms but basically, you know, our child has to feel regulated and we're not talking about self regulation, we're talking about regulated, that their little nervous system that is under threat, is under fire, needs to be soothed so that they're in that kind of calm state, um, in order for them to to, to, to connect. So we have regulate. The next bit is relate, which is that connection. So they have to be in that kind of calm, um state in order to then connect to another person, to kind of forge that relationship, and then, only then, we can get to those top parts of the brain and we can do that, um, that that reason part. So regulate, relate, reason, the three r's and that was a light bulb moment for me with my son was okay. And before I start doing the relate bit, because as parents we want to fix things and we want to jump right into that, don't we? And we go, we actually go right into into the reason that we go into the third R first, where we talk, because we can talk it better, we can reason them out of this. We can, we can soothe them out by just by talking about it.
Speaker 2:And actually when you've got a child that is in that complete dysregulated state whether they're in fight or flight or whether they are in in that freeze or collapse state which my son would, would go into, you know we need to just be there with them and that that's co-regulation. Where we are, you know, know regulation's contagious. So we almost were like that kind of tuning fork. We're tuning to where they are and we're thinking what do they need right now? And actually when they are down in those real kind of like lower parts of the brain, when they're in that kind of complete dysregulation, we kind of need to think sensory, because that's where all our sensory parts of the brain are.
Speaker 2:So I need to think well, he's shut the blinds and he's under the duvet, so he, he doesn't want to see anything, he doesn't want to hear anything. But I know he wants to keep me close, so I would sit there. You know, I'd be thinking right, we're in the regulate, we're in the regulate, we're in that, we're in the first hour, we're in the first hour. And then, you know, when he would begin to wriggle and he'd begin to make some noises under the duvet, I would think all right, okay, we're moving, we're moving up, we're moving into that middle part of the brain, we're moving to the relate. He wants to connect now. So you know, I would just maybe put a really gentle hand on top of the duvet and if I got an elbow, then I'd say, oh, we're not quite there yet. I would just sit quietly for a bit longer and then eventually a little hand or a finger would come out from under the duvet and I would just hold it, but I wouldn't talk because that would send them right back again.
Speaker 2:So you know, we would work on that relate bit, on that connection bit, for quite a significant time until eventually the wee head would pop out of the duvet and he would be me again with my mum hat, my, my neurotypical mum hat, on to let's talk about this and let's fix it and let's work out what the problem is. We would go right back down to the the bottom part of the brain again. So that light bulb moment for me and I still use it all the time, it is a game changer is to see right, where are we are at? Where are we at the regulate, in which case I'm thinking Are we at the regulate, in which case I'm thinking sensory? Are we at the relate, in which case I'm taking my cues from him and I'm rebuilding that connection? Or actually is he feeling just right, just now? Can we go into that reason part where we can kind of, you know, reflect and figure it out together and plan for the next time? So for me that is an absolute game changer that I still use a lot.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, it makes so much sense. And you know, on the other side of the loss of self-regulation and that stress response, when you have that violent outburst with your child as well, it can be really tricky. You know and I have listeners, you know, talk about this, I experienced it myself because it's hard to just be there with your child when they're kicking you, biting you, pinching you, attacking you really, because it's the same as the catatonia, it's the same. They're fighting that grizzly bear, they're going to kill that grizzly bear, but it might be you, and we talked about co-regulation a bit. So holding that space is difficult, I think, for a lot of people.
Speaker 2:Because it is because, as I say, emotions are a contagion and when you have a child who you feel has completely tipped and I always kind of liken it to being on a bit of a tightrope we're kind of there, and when they're tentatively walking along the tightrope but they're balanced, that's when all is well. When they begin to wobble, you know we're there to support them, but when they completely fall off, we've lost them and they've gone and it's really, really difficult. Then, you know, for us to stay in our top thinking parts of the brain and for us to kind of still kind of try to kind of keep that connection and figure out ways of keeping that connection. But you know, I always kind of say to parents and carers and staff that I work with is, a child is only as regulated as the adult that is supporting them. And you know, a dysregulated child will not become regulated if the adult is dysregulated. However, it's also about understanding that we have our own biology going on and all the stuff that happens for our child. You know, that same kind of nervous system and that same stress response system that's happening with us as well and we have to acknowledge that. So, you know, if all is safe. Sometimes it is just about stepping on the other side of the door for a minute and, just, you know, taking those deep breaths because our body's mobilised as well. So it's about us kind of knowing what we need to do to try to get ourselves, and we won't get back to a calm state. To try to get ourselves and we won't get back to a calm state, you know.
Speaker 2:Again, dr Bruce Perry talks about five states, you know, and they range from calm and to alert, alarm, fear and terror. Now we might still be in that slight alert alarm phase, but we can still connect at that point and we can still almost. It's that kind of like little, kind of fishing hook going in and kind of reeling in bit by bit and we can figure out that the reasoning bit and whatever later. We don't have to fix it, it's just about here in the moment. But actually it has to start with with us, um, and figuring out what we need to do.
Speaker 2:Because if we are completely dysregulated and we're at the stage of and I've been there, you know that there are times, um, you know when when I've been in this situation, in fact, actually kind of fairly recently, when, when my son had kind of tipped into the you know, and he was, he had, he was he's throwing things and he had made a real kind of mess and I'd had a really difficult day and I'd been working, I was tired and I had other work to do and there was stuff going on and and I knew, I knew, while the words were coming out of my mouth, um, you know, I knew that actually I was making things worse, and you know, and I shouted at him and then, luckily, my husband came in from work at that point and they were in the bedroom together and then eventually, when I felt ready, I walked into the room and my son just screamed at me just like ah, and he said that's what you did to me.
Speaker 2:And I thought that wasn't what I did to you, but actually that's how you perceived it to be and I, you know so we don't always get it right all of the time, and I think also it's to kind of cut ourselves a little bit of slack around that when we tip, you know, it's just that the demand on us has been too great at that particular given time.
Speaker 1:We are all doing the best we can with what we've got at any given time, and it's not easy and you know my heart goes out to you when you know you're not alone there, you know we're only human. But it's also an opportunity then when all everyone's back in that kind of third R that you're talking about, that you can have that kind of discussion with your child too, which is, look, I also get dysregulated. You know, mommy can also lose it, and that's helpful because then it's especially as your child gets older and can can understand more. It normalizes it a bit, you know, and it it helps them to to model kind of what mommy needed to do, you know. So it's not all negative when we do lose. It is what I'm trying to say the opportunity.
Speaker 2:I always think it's a great. I think getting it wrong is a brilliant opportunity to put it right. And our children only learn to repair things and put things right when they've had experience of adults getting it wrong. And so you know, then when I'm back in that kind of reasoning part of my brain and we're back connected again, yeah, we can have those conversations and I can also say sorry and I'll say do you know what? I just got so upset and I shouted and I'm sorry because I think that really frightened you. Were you feeling frightened? Oh well, next time. This is what you know. So they're getting real experience of we all get it wrong. But actually if we're, we can kind of be proactive and putting it right. And that's about that kind of repairing the relationship and then thinking about the next time. Okay, so when that happens next time, I wonder what we could do. So we're being kind of proactive and preempting. We're using that kind of review for planning for the next situation coming along as well.
Speaker 1:Because you know there's going to be another one.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, either book or not.
Speaker 1:That's the only guarantee there's going to be another one. Oh yeah, that's the only guarantee you're gonna be tested again, mommy. You're gonna get to retake this, it's gonna. You know you're gonna get another chance. That's the beauty of our children. Try, try, try again until it's perfect. But now you can you talk to us a little bit. You You've talked about Dr Barry, but about kind of your, your models, your pillars, and how, how we can soothe stress, how we can build that connection and how that can all lead towards a strengthening our children's executive functioning.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean just, you mentioned executive functioning there, and that's that's where we want to get to, isn't it? That's the golden door that we want to open? Um, but again, unfortunately, because of our children's kind of biology and their lived experiences, they spend a lot of time. I always kind of liken it to a little bit like a house. You know, um, you know that the brain develops from the bottom to the top, as I mentioned I was going to think about. You know that the first part of the brain to develop is that basement brain develops from the bottom to the top, as I mentioned, I always kind of think about. You know that the first part of the brain to develop is that basement brain, and that's where, you know, all our survival responses are, our fight, flight or freeze and the stuff that just happens that we don't have any conscious control over. So our heart rate and our breathing and our senses, our sensory inputs, all down there as well. And then I like to kind of almost visualize taking a little step up into the ground floor of the house and in that ground floor we've got, um, you know, we're forming our relationships and our connections, our attachments, all um, our emotions are all there, our memories are being made, our explicit memories, the ones that we can put um pictures and words to. But also in that ground floor there's a big red stress response button and whenever our child experiences that kind of threat of the being told no or something happening that they didn't expect, that big stress response button gets hit and I can imagine all these little emotions kind of running around without any reasoning and running down into the basement in complete panic mode or complete shutdown. Um. But the last part of the brain to develop is is upstairs, in the house and um, and that's that's kind of for me. You know, you mentioned executive functions and that's where the executive functions are and that's things like self-regulation, which is about regulating those stress responses, impulse control, emotional regulation, working memory, our ability to focus, to stay organized, to get started on stuff, to finish stuff, to not procrastinate all of those things. But upstairs it's. It's not properly built yet, the roof on but the wiring's not in place. There's all these cables lying around about. But every time we take our child's hand and we go up that staircase to that upstairs brain with them, we can help them to untangle the wires and begin to plug them in in the right places and we can begin to insulate the wires so they become much, much more effective to use all of those executive functions.
Speaker 2:The problem is in our child's brain house is that as soon as that big stress response button and the ground floor gets hit, the staircase disappears and they cannot get up to that top floor to use all those kind of reasoning and predictive and reflective skills that they need to do to function when stuff's hard and what they end up doing is they end up in kind of either chaos or complete rigidity down in the basement. So it's about again using those three r's. You know, the basement is the regulate and the ground floor is the relate and and the upstairs is the reason it's. It's about figuring out what room of the house is your child in at any given time. If they're in the basement, there is no point in us being in the top floor upstairs trying to communicate with them. We need to get into the same room of the house. So you know, I always kind of use that analogy and that's the kind of the pillars that my work's built upon is saying right, you know, figure out what room of the house your child is in and get in there beside them if they are down in the basement.
Speaker 2:We are thinking sensory. We are really soothing those most primitive stress responses if they are in the ground floor. We are kind of thinking relationships and an emotional regulation. We are co-regulating with our child. We're connecting, we're validating those big feelings. We're saying, oh man, that was really hard for you, or I could see you were so upset or I could see that was a really big deal. We are throwing empathy on it by the bucket load. And then you know we are taking them by the hand, we're not sending them upstairs by themselves because they won't know what to do with the wires. You know their little brains are still under construction. So we are taking them upstairs and we are helping them to wire the brain through experiences. And I have quite a specific kind of self-regulation framework that we can use with our children when they are upstairs. In the brain that really begins to kind of strengthen and exercise those executive functions. So that's the kind of the framework and the pillars that I use. It's about getting into the right room with your child.
Speaker 1:That's such a brilliant way of describing it. I don't think I've ever heard executive functioning explained so clearly and so easy to understand. Thank you, that is just absolutely brilliant, and it's actually something that you could talk to your kids about too, because they can understand. You know where are you in the basement, are you on the? You know it's. It's just absolutely brilliant. Ah, love that. I'm going to borrow that because that's a great way to explain things. So, thank you for that. You're welcome. And then and then you go into actually how you can, how you can work with their executive functioning or how you can help them to construct that. Can we maybe talk about some real world examples of this for our listeners? I mean, we're spoiled for choice really. So there's the morning routine, there's hygiene as well. I know that a lot of my listeners that can be like the brown banana actually showering. Especially as they get to teenage years, it becomes more challenging. You know, can you maybe take us through some of the real examples?
Speaker 2:Yeah it's all about. There's a couple of things, you know. First of all, we make a lot of assumptions about why our children behave the way they do. The things that they do are the things that they refuse to do, they don't want to do or they can't do, and you know, what we need to do is we actually need to figure out what is actually going on for our child and what their concern is.
Speaker 2:The second thing is we need to break down all of these, all of these kind of routines that you're talking about morning routines, getting showered, getting dressed, packing the school bag, you know, coming for dinner. They're actually quite complex routines. They actually take a lot of executive function. First of all, you need to know exactly what the goal is, what you need to. You need to figure out how to achieve that goal. You need to be able to initiate the task and get started, and nine times out of 10, whatever the goal and I'm using the word goal not for the big life changing goals, but I'm using the goal, as in the tiny little goals that we have as parents, you know of getting in the shower, going to the toilet, getting started, your homework these are all the tiny day-to-day goals, and the majority of them are our goals. They're not our children's goals.
Speaker 1:These are goals of adults you know they'd be far off the list of my daughter's goals and that's, and that's.
Speaker 2:The thing is that you and we are talking about children, who you know. If we're thinking about executive functions anyway, you know task initiation is a capability they are lagging. You know impulse control is a capability they are lagging. You know being organised, staying focused, doing the stuff that you don't like to do but you just have to do it because there's no choice, is something that's really really difficult for them. So what we need to do is we need to. You know, when I'm working with parents and carers, I always say to them right, first of all, what we're going to do is we're going to kind of make a list of all the things that happen throughout the day. That that's difficult, and I want you to be as specific as possible because we have to be really explicit. So it might be um, so let's take showering as one of them. So it's, it's getting in the shower. And I would say, right, okay, we're going to look at the four W's around that. We're going to look at the. You know the around that. We're going to look at the. You know the what, what's the getting in the shower, the when, the where and the who. So we're really explicitly kind of drilling down to it.
Speaker 2:And then you know parents tend to say, oh, they just can't be bothered, or they're not bothered by the fact that they smell or they don't like the water. So again, we're making all these assumptions. But actually have we worked with our child to unpick what their concerns are? So I use a framework and this is a self-regulation framework of goal, predict, plan, do, review. So what we're doing is when our child and this is when the child has to be in their upstairs brain.
Speaker 2:This is about self-regulation. We can only strengthen all the components of self-regulation and executive function when our child is in the upstairs brain with us. We can't do it when they're in the basement, so it has to be when, when the going is good and they're connected. So it may not be. You don't pull this out the bag when they're shouting and screaming at you and they're not getting in the shower, because it won't work. It won't work. It has to be done at a time when you're connected, and those times tend to be, you know, if you're driving in the car and you don't have to have eye contact with them or you know you're doing an activity together On a walk, absolutely.
Speaker 2:These are the times when you know we don't sit over the table and have a discussion about this, because that is intense. It's the times when your child is kind of opening up and connected anyway. We then identify the goal and it's done. It's not about mentioning the behaviour. It's not about saying this morning, when I told you to get in the shower, you started screaming at me because we will shut down the conversation right there. It can be really helpful to say I noticed that you found it difficult too. So this morning, when it was time to have your shower, I noticed that you were finding it difficult to go into the bathroom and get showered. So that's the goal. We've identified the goal. Then it's the predict. Now the thing is that our children are not good at predicting. They tend to either live in the here and the now and therefore they get hit with curveballs all the time and that evokes a stress response and they just react to that, or they make prediction errors. You know they predict that stuff's going to be easy, that we kind of know it's going to be really tricky for them, or they catastrophize and everything's going to be really hard and a big deal and we're thinking oh, for goodness sake, you know this is easy. So you know we help them to predict, but we do it in a really empathic way because we are validating their concerns, we're validating their emotions. Now it might be that we say to them you know, oh man, I can see that this is really hard for you. Or, you know, is this a really big deal, or is this something that's really tricky or is this really stressful for you, you know. So we're validating what. We're not saying For goodness sake, it's just a shower, just get in and get it done. You know, we're validating, we're predicting what those stresses are. So we might say use a script such as you know, I'm wondering why it's really hard, why it's such a big deal, I'm wondering what's going on for you. I wonder how I can help. So that's us predicting. And then it's about the making the plan. So you know, you might, you know you might, your child might say I just don't like it all. Right, okay, I hear you don't like it. But you know we have to then come back with our concerns and I get that. But you know, we kind of got a shower sometimes. So let's make a plan, let's see if we can figure this out together, because I hear that you don't like it. Let's see what might help now. It might be then. So we've set the goal, we've done the predicting and validating the stressors, we're now on to making the plan. And the biggest mistake we make as parents is we plan for our children. We say, well, do you know what I think you could do if you did? You know, if you just um, if, if you go and you get that shower gel that you like and use your favourite sponge, and if you just go in for five minutes and I'll give you a shout when it's ready and you can come right up, you only need to go in for five minutes. That's our plan. We've made the plan.
Speaker 2:The child has no sense of agency or ownership and we all know what happens when our children begin to feel stressed. The first thing that they pull upon is control and that sense of agency, that sense of being in control. So it's about giving them ownership and saying, ok, what might help? You know I'm wondering. You know I normally, you know, tell you to go in the shower at night time. Is there another time of day that might be better, that you would prefer to go in the shower at night time. Is there another time of day that that might be better, that you would prefer to go in the shower? You know, or it might be of, you know, I'm wondering you know, how long do you think you may be needing the shower? Um, you know, is, is there something about the water or the temperature? Um, is there something about the spray? Is it that you know? Is there something? So you're unpicking? It might be that the spray on the shower head that you've got is actually because of, like you know, stimulus to senses is just too much, and it might be. You know, your gorgeous, you know puri shower gel absolutely stinks to them, and they can, you know. But actually, because a lot of the time they don't actually know what it is about, they're feeling difficult. But we need to play detective as a co-regulator to unpick it and help to make a plan. Now, it might be that the plan is you know I don't want to shower every day, ok, so I shower every day. So you know, every, every second day, you know I mean. And every day. So, um, you know, every, every second day, you know I mean is and so what we're coming to, and it might be that we need to come out of our camp, um, to get them to come out of their camp, and we might need to meet somewhere in the middle. But it's about making a plan that is collaborative, that is proactive and that the child has ownership over, because, let's face it, as soon as they feel that they have ownership and it's their plan, they are much more likely to carry it out. So that's the plan bit. We then go on to the do, and the do bit is supporting them through the plan.
Speaker 2:Children do not strengthen self-regulation by talking about it, doing a worksheet, doing a chart None of that works. They have to physically be engaged in the doing of it, and it's a bit like riding a bike. You don't ride a bike by watching a programme or reading a book. You have to get on and you have to fall off numerous times and you have to practise, practise, practise, practise, until the brain all gets wired and you're able to do it on your own.
Speaker 2:Having a shower is the exact same situation. You know we need to support our child. So it's before they go and say, oh, now you made a brilliant plan this morning about going to the shower. What was it that you said? So we're getting our child to repeat back to us what it is that they say, because you know it's the idea that you know. It's out of the mouths of children and then you know into the ears of children and then into the brains of children and it becomes part of their self-talk.
Speaker 2:So, where possible, we are not kind of, you know, telling children what to do. We're asking just really sensitive questions and really considered questions because we want them to think, to get the brain firing, and we want them to say the words out loud, because the more often they say the words out loud, it becomes part of their self-talk, which eventually also becomes part of the self-regulation. So you've got the talking part going along with the doing part, giving them the supports that they need to do it. And do you know what, if they're beginning to go in the shower oh no, I don't want to go in, I'm not it's like, ah, right, okay, I, we go back to the, the plot that the predict part again right.
Speaker 2:So this is, this is a bit tricky. I'm wondering what's going on. I'm wondering what's wrong. Um, I wonder how we can help. What do we need now do we need to change the plan? So it's the idea that plans aren't carved in stone and what we're doing there is we are beginning to develop flexible thinking, that plans can change, that plans can adapt. So we support the child through the doing, and then we have the review.
Speaker 2:So goal, predict, plan, do review. And the review isn't about sitting down and having a big, long, drawn out conversation. It's about you know, as they're coming out with the towel wrapped around them, how'd the plan go? Did you manage that? All right, brilliant. So we'll do that again tomorrow, or? Oh man, that didn't work so well. I'm wondering what we need to change for tomorrow, when we have our shower, we'll have a wee think about that. We don't need to do it just now. We'll have a think about it tomorrow, have a think, we'll have a chat. So that's goal, predict, plan do review. And it's a really proactive, it's a coaching based model and it's collaborative. And what you're doing is you're actually getting upstairs into the child's brain and you are supporting them to strengthen those executive functions and self-regulation. But it won't happen overnight. You have to do it again and again, and again and again, because what we're doing is we're opening up new pathways in the brain. We're changing our child's biology and then eventually you'll be able to remove the supports bit by bit, by bit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's is beautiful description and you know it's. It can be applied to any of the issues that parents are having in terms of that. You know you can take that, you can take that roadmap and apply it elsewhere and it's just with a lot of patience. And what's beautiful is when you do get to the end and when they are able to do it by themselves. And then it's like oh, this is easy now. Easy now you know what I mean and you can see that that development and the growth and the self-worth that children feel when they're able to do it by themselves, and that autonomy they feel and it's a safe net.
Speaker 2:I mean my son now. I mean this is you know, this is just how I parent and you know we're talking about children with special educational needs. We're talking about autistic children. You know my daughter is, you know, neurotypical, but you know she's moving into the teen years and worries and anxieties and you know and I use this all the time with her, in fact she can actually explain it beautifully to me how we kind of break down the process. But you know, just as an example, um last week with my son, because he will now ask for a plan when he's beginning to get stressed, he will now say to me I need a plan. I need a plan because he knows, you know, the power of planning. So we were at um.
Speaker 2:He's just started attending a little club and it's for children with. You know, in Scotland we don't talk about special educational needs, we talk about additional support needs. So it's a little club for children with additional support needs and most of the children there are autistic, there's only a few and it's really relaxed and he's really enjoying it. And we went in last week and he just got in and he was like oh no, oh no, oh no, I have to leave, I have to leave. And I'm looking around the room thinking we've literally just walked in, I can't see what the issue is. And you know, I was like, well, let's just figure this out, let's just figure this out, no, I have to leave, I have to leave. So again, it's that kind of he has to go. So I was like, okay, will we go outside and sit on the seats and we'll figure this out. Yes, so we went and we sat outside and you know, and automatically I can see that cycle of self-regulation go, predict, plan, do review. So you know, the goal is that I would like to get him back into this club because it's the first club he's ever attended and he's 10 and it's, he enjoys it, he wants to be there, but something stopped him from going in today. So you know, um, I kind of sat down and said you know the kind of predicting oh, something happened in there. Yeah, that was a really big deal and it's made you so worried that you've had to leave. So that's me validating that, the stressors, you know.
Speaker 2:I'm wondering what it was. Did somebody see something? No, no, did you see some equipment out that you didn't know what to do and you got worried. No, no, the boy had a t-shirt on and it had Super Mario on it. Now, my son has a thing about Super Mario. He's a Sonic fan and therefore anything Super Mario he actually can't cope. You know, tubs of Pringles at the moment have got Super Marios on it. We can't have them in the house. So he couldn't go back in.
Speaker 2:So, you know, I was kind of trying to say OK, I'm on to the plan, but would it help if you know, we just went in and we played in a different bit? No, because in a different bit. No, because I might see him. Would it help if I just kept my eyes out and I was looking? So you didn't? No, no, because you might not see him and I might.
Speaker 2:Okay, so today the plan is are you thinking that we're just not going to go in today? No, no, we're not going to get us. That's fine, we don't have to go in today, that's absolutely fine. But you know what, maybe next week and you'll want to come back. And how are we going to figure that one out? We need to make a plan for next week, don't we?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so again, you know, I was kind of he's. He's at the stage where I have to give him some suggestions. He doesn't have the capability to come up with suggestions himself. So I came up with a few things that he didn't think and I said oh, I said, do you know what I said? How about we could get you a Sonic t-shirt? So if he's wearing his Mario t-shirt and he was like, no, no, no, because he just wears the same blue top he's got 12 of the exact same top. He doesn't wear other things. But then he said oh, I have a plan, I have a plan, I will bring my Sonic plushie and he will be a shield. And I said what a super plan.
Speaker 2:So at that point the organiser walked past and I was explaining. I said Rory's made a plan for coming back next week and he's going to bring his Sonic, which he did last Thursday. And it was great because the organiser had remembered. And he said oh, you've brought your sonic plushie with you, you've brought your shield and he's, you know, he's beaming. And he carried it. And then eventually, the sonic plushie got thrown away and he just engaged. But that's again, it's about validating. No matter how ridiculous we think it is, it's, you know, for goodness sake it's a mario t-shirt get back in there and join in. It's about listening to the concerns, validating and planning, but also knowing when the demand and the expectation is too much. You know, I was able to gauge that actually for him to go back in that session, the demand was too much, it wouldn't matter how many plans we tried to make. You know, it was just too overwhelming.
Speaker 1:So it's knowing sometimes when to say we're just going to stop now as well and we'll revisit this another time what was also beautiful about that story is that you did stop and you said we're not going to do this now, but you also made a plan for how you were going to do it the next week, because I think there's a level of fear I have felt as a parent that if we leave this situation now, it's just going to be worse next time. You know what I mean. It's that that fear is going to get bigger, that anxiety is going to get, you know, out of proportion. So you were able to come up with and you know he came up and that's that autonomy too that he came up with his solution that he felt really, this is what's going to work for me, so that's looking forward. He had a positive thing that he could do, so it took away the negative sting of the whole situation and the fear of the situation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think you're right and that's something that I come across a lot with the parents that I work with. That it's always that kind of well, I don't want to give in to them because we're going to have to face this again next time. And it's that understanding that you're not giving in. You're meeting your child where they're at, but you're already one step ahead. You know we are using that cycle of goal, predict, plan, do review. You know, my goal was I want to get him. You know, if we lose today, that's fine, but I want him back next week.
Speaker 2:So we're not going to make this plan, we're not going to go home and do it. We're going to find a safe place in school, away from the gym hall, because it was in a school where the club was and and we did, and he was at the seats right at the front door so he knew he could leave if he wanted to. But it was about kind of the, the review and then the planning for next time. Um, so, and when he came in next time he was a hop, skip and a jump and there he was. So you know, sometimes it's about knowing when you've probably exhausted everything you can in this particular time. However, I'm already thinking about the next time and, you know, predicting and planning ahead for that.
Speaker 1:And then he left on a positive. It wasn't that you were running away. It was like, ok, we're not going to do it now, can't do it right now, but I have a plan for next week and I feel positive about that plan. Now can't do it right now, but I have a plan for next week and I feel positive about that plan. So it's a totally different than you know him running to the car and shutting the door and you know having nightmares about Super Mario T-shirts. You know it's, it's a complete. You left on a positive note, even though you still left.
Speaker 2:It's really great. Well done, mommy. But you know I call this intentional parenting and I think that's the thing is that you know, when you've got a neurotypical child, you know we can get away with just parenting on the hoof and you know, just going with the flow and winging it. Sometimes when you've got an autistic child, you can't do that. You have to be very intentional. You know I have to be intentional about what I say, when I see it, how I see it, and I have to be intentional about thinking. You know kind of five or six steps ahead and you know so.
Speaker 2:It's that kind of analogy of parenting. You know you've got your kind of like you know five aside Sunday league football kind parenting, and then you've got your premiership parenting and I think parents of children with special educational needs we're in the premiership league. You know we have to, our skills have to be super honed, we have to be 10 steps ahead all of the time. But that's exhausting as well. You know, it's tiring and we have to be aware of how much that kind of takes from us.
Speaker 1:So we have to look after ourselves absolutely, and that's uh, you know that's so important now. Um, if you can believe it, we've almost been talking for an hour now. You are, you know, and I have enjoyed every second of it, and you know, I know that you have your coaching and your training. We're going to include all of that in the show notes so people can I know they're going to want to bombard your door because what you've said has just made so much sense today but could you leave us with three top tips that parents could take away with them? I know you've given us lots of tips today, but just three that you would say put in your back pocket and take away with you um, I would say it takes time.
Speaker 2:Give it time, you know. I think you know it's all about readiness. It's all about our children being ready, and whether that's ready on a day to day basis for doing the little things or ready for the bigger stuff, it'll happen in their own time. We can't force them and we can't fast track, and that then means that we have to kind of come to the table with a slightly different mindset, which then kind of takes me on to, I guess, my kind of second takeaway, which is, you know, knowing what to let go. You know we're spinning a multitude of plates and if you try to keep them all in the air, you inevitably drop them and they come crashing to the ground. So it's knowing. You know what plates am I going to put back on the shelf, not forever, but just now, so that you know I'm only focusing on a few things and I can let the other stuff go. You know, it doesn't mean that I'm going to let it go forever, but we're going to let it go for just now.
Speaker 2:And the last thing we would say you know we've all you know I talk about, you know, window of tolerance or body budgets, and basically we've all got a unique window of tolerance, and when we're inside that window, that's when the magic happens, that's when we can take risks, we can learn, we can thrive, um, and when the stress gets too big, we tip outside the window and that's a window, and that's when we're back down in that basement again. But it's about kind of as, as parents and carers, it's about us knowing how big our window is at any given time and knowing, you know ourselves, when to let stuff go, when I, you know, think, when there's times when there's been expectations for me to, you know, have maybe met up with friends or to be doing things, and I'm just thinking, do you know what? I think I'm getting much, much better at saying my window's quite small just now, so I'm just going to look after me. So, um, you know, it's about taking care of ourselves.
Speaker 1:Um, in order to do that premiership league parenting that we have to do 24, 7, um every day of the year it's yeah, uh, you know, I, I like, I like the way you describe parenting in the premier league because, yeah, that's what it, you know it, it does feel that way. Thank you so much for your time today. It's been so valuable. You've given us so much wisdom and real lived in experience too. You know what I mean. You're wise and you're also in the trenches with us doing doing the parenting. So you know what you're talking about. You know, and it's such a refreshing breath of fresh air because you know, as a parent, like the parenting advice that we get in the books that, you know, our neurotypical friends recommend it doesn't work for our children, but the advice that you have given us today is stuff. I know that every single one of my listeners will be like, oh, I'm going to try this today and I imagine quite a few will be knocking on your door. So thank you again for coming on. The Send Parenting podcast.
Speaker 2:Oh, thank you, Dr Olivia, it's been an absolute pleasure.
Speaker 1:Thank you. Thank you for listening. Send Parenting Tribe. If you haven't already, please click on the link in the show notes to join us in the private Send Parenting what's Up community. It's been wonderful to be able to communicate with everyone in the community and for us to join together to help each other, to navigate challenges and to also celebrate successes. Wishing you and your family a really good week ahead. You.