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SEND Parenting Podcast
Welcome to the Send Parenting Podcast. I'm your neurodiverse host, Dr Olivia Kessel, and, more importantly, I am a mother to my wonderfully neurodivergent daughter, Alexandra, who really inspired this podcast.
As a veteran in navigating the world of neurodiversity, I have uncovered a wealth of misinformation, alongside many answers and solutions that were never taught to me in medical school or in any of the parenting handbooks.
Each week on this podcast, I will be bringing the experts to your ears to empower you on your parenting crusade.
SEND Parenting Podcast
EP 141 Unschooling Yourself: Letting Go of the ‘Shoulds’ in Parenting
What if the problem was never your child—but the system itself?
In this powerful conversation, Dr. Olivia sits down with Esther Jones, mindfulness teacher, mother of three, and author of The Parent’s Handbook to Unschooling Yourself, to explore what happens when we let go of the ‘shoulds’ that weigh parents down. From daily battles over school refusal to the pressure of academic milestones, Esther shares her family’s journey into unschooling—a path that focuses on curiosity, connection, and trust rather than control.
Together, they unpack how mindfulness and self-compassion can transform not just how our children learn, but how we parent. Whether you are curious about alternatives to traditional education or simply looking for a way to bring more calm and joy into your home, this episode will help you see that the first step to helping your child thrive might just be learning to “unschool” yourself.
Author & mindful parenting coach
Book: The Parent's Handbook to Unschooling Yourself
Podcast: The Unschool Space
Website: www.esther-jones.com
👉 Join ADHD Warrior Mum: The Recharge Station
Join Dr. Olivia Kessel and leading SEND experts at the Recharge and Connect Summit on 11 November 2025 at Phyllis Court, Henley-on-Thames (also livestreamed).
A day to recharge, connect, and gain practical tools for raising neurodiverse children. 💛
👉 sendparenting.com/event
Join our growing community of Warrior Mums inside the ADHD Warrior Mum’s Recharge Station
— your space for support, connection, and calm.
Welcome to the Send Parenting Podcast. I'm your neurodiverse host, Dr. Olivia Kessel, and more importantly, I'm mother to my wonderfully neurodivergent daughter, Alexandra, who really inspired this podcast. As a veteran in navigating the world of neurodiversity in the UK education system, I've uncovered a wealth of misinformation, alongside many answers and solutions that were never taught to me in medical school or in any of the parenting handbooks. Each week on this podcast, I will be bringing the experts to your ears to empower you on your parenting crusade. Before we start the episode, I want to share something super exciting. The ADHD Warrior Mom Recharge Station is now open for founding members. This founding membership gives you access to group coaching weekly, interactive master classes every month with neurodiverse experts, monthly self-care sessions, access to a community of moms just like you, where you can be you and not feel alone, and also a library of practical resources. Just for the founding membership, it's 29 pounds a month, which is limited to 30 spaces until the end of October. You'll receive a special bonus offer too, which is a one-on-one coaching session with me, Dr. Olivia. You can cancel your membership at any time. You can join today at SENDparenting.com backslash join, or you can click the link in the show notes. And as a gift, you can download my free guide, everything you need to know when considering ADHD medication. You can access this again at scendparenting.com backslash medication. And I'll also include that link in the show notes. In this episode, I'm joined by Esther Jones, mindfulness teacher, mother of three, and author of the Parents Handbook to Unschooling Yourself. Esther is also the founder of the Unschool Space podcast, where she explores how families can step outside the pressures of traditional schooling. Many of you listening know the daily battles of school refusal, meltdowns, and feeling like your child simply does not fit in the system. For some families, the answer lies in unschooling, letting go of the school-based shoulds, and creating space where children, especially those who are neurodivergent, can thrive as their authentic selves. In our conversation, Esther shares her own journey, what it meant to unschool ourselves as parents, and how mindfulness can help us stay grounded while meeting the needs of both our children and ourselves. So welcome, Esther. It is such a pleasure to have you on the Send Parenting podcast. So many of us parents, and I know I am definitely guilty of this, kind of dread the daily battles of school refusal, not wanting to go in, and then the meltdowns when they come home, the meltdowns beforehand, and you know, really having children that don't quite fit into the education system. And the idea of unschooling, not just as an alternative to traditional education, but also of a way of letting go of the shoulds that kind of weigh us down as moms and parents, is both fascinating, I have to say, and also slightly daunting. Absolutely. I'm really excited to uh explore this with you today. Can you start by like sharing how your journey went to unschooling? Yeah, sure.
Cassie :Well, lovely to be here. Thank you. Um, yes, so we arrived here in a similar way to most people that I have um worked with and met, which is that I had never questioned school. Uh that was my assumption, was that I would have children, they would go to school, right? Um, so it turned out that my eldest was just even as a toddler, I knew that that was going to be quite difficult. Um, you know, he kind of went by the beat of his own drum. He needed to be very autonomous. Um, he it I could just tell it wasn't going to be a good fit. So when he was younger, we found this beautiful little preschool where Aunt was very child-centered, but he was very happy, and his little brother went with him. And then um, when he was six, we tried a very alternative school. We lived in Spain at the time. There were no obligatory lessons, it was um very outdoorsy, it was a beautiful space, and we were there for a few years, and um there were lots of wonderful things, but it still didn't really work. There was a lot of conflict, a lot of difficulties, a lot of challenges, a lot of meltdowns, you know, and it was yeah, so finally I just thought, well, let's just try something else. So we came out. Um and I thought, we're gonna find the right place now. Let's find the right place. So we started on that sort of search for the holy grail, didn't find it. And as we were looking, the months went by, and I just noticed that we were okay. And they were learning, and they were, you know, I was panicky and worried and all of that. But they were just getting on with stuff. And and then about a year into it, I found the word unschooling, and I thought, oh, oh, there's a name for this. So did you take both boys out then at the same time?
Dr Olivia:Was your younger one also struggling?
Cassie :We did, we no, he he was finding it much easier, but he was sort of happy to come out too. So um yeah, so they came out, and then um their sister, um, who was um four years younger than my middle one, um, she wasn't school age yet, so that was a kind of a non-issue. Um, so we kind of just muddled through, and then I found myself just as I followed them and how what felt best for us, I just found myself letting go of things one by one in with difficulty a lot. Um and but realizing that, oh yeah, every time I let go, it seemed to be okay. It seemed to all work out, and so it was that space. Um at the same time, I also left the company that I'd been working. Well, I I founded and had had worked for in for many, many years. And I was also having to understand, um, and I was a real workaholic, perfectionist, all those things that no doubt came from my school years. And I was what, but I wasn't happy. And so it was also a a point of reckoning for me as well. So we were kind of all went through this kind of undoing, unraveling at kind of at the same time, which was really helpful for me. It's almost a major family control alt-delete. Absolutely. Yeah, it's like, okay, let's start again. What's going on here? Um, and you know what? They led me. They led me, they led me into all the things I discovered about myself. It was a really beautiful journey. Looking back, I can say that. At the time it felt very messy, to be honest with you. Um, but understand like they really took me to places that I just didn't understand and took me to places where there was a lot of discomfort. But I when I got through that, I thought, oh yeah, that's this is this is true. What I was thinking about.
Dr Olivia:Can you describe some of that that discomfort?
Cassie :Like, because that's probably the pivotal moments where actually change happened. Yeah, definitely. So I think that one one piece for me was um the needing approval. So I definitely grew up with that sense of, you know, got to tick these boxes, got to look like I'm doing enough, got to be just right. So there was a lot of that for me. And of course, when your children aren't doing that, and particularly if you have a neurodivergent child, you probably are that parent who doesn't tick the boxes for people. That's just how it is. So being able to sink into that and not look for approval of my child, my children, uh, or of me, felt very kind of dangerous at the beginning. I felt very um unnerving. But actually, it started to feel really freeing. That we were allowed to be how we were. We were allowed to not look for approval. They didn't have to be. It was again those shoulds. And just looking at the should and going, okay, is that true? Um, so leading me to that, is that true? Do I have to be busy all the time? Can I rest? Oh, yeah. I don't have to be productive and busy all the time. I don't actually owe that to somebody, you know.
Dr Olivia:Um well, I I I know because yeah, I I have not had the epiphany yet, so I'm probably still I'm still probably in in the shoulds. And it sounds like it started with not being able to find the school, yeah, and then it was that it turned out it was okay. So something that you really held to be a truth or a should cracked, and then your family didn't die or or crumble because of it. Is that is that kind of how it started?
Cassie :Yeah, absolutely. And the things that I was kind of, you know, afraid of or fearful of didn't happen, you know. And um, I saw them learning and I saw them getting on with things. They would they would amaze me every day. Every day there would be something up that would blow me away. I'd be like, how do you know that? And there was a lot of me going, how do you know that? How do you know that? And a lot of them, hey, did you know that? Did you know that? And it was remarkable to me that the less I tried to direct things, so again, this is another piece of our unraveling through our children. Um, I was very much a list person. Uh, I can fix this person, right? And I and a bit controlling without resonating with me.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Cassie :So realizing that I'd actually, if I sat back, things often went better than me trying to make things happen. If I tried to make things happen, I would always be met with resistance. And then if it did happen, it happened in a very kind of clunky, annoyed way. So it wasn't really. But if I sat back and said, all right, I don't think I think I can not be in this for a moment, they all seem that they're getting on with their own thing. It was like this magic would happen. Things would happen. And maybe there'd be a day which was really quiet, no one really seemed to be doing anything, and I would get a little bit edgy. And then the next day, though, I'd realised that the day of not doing anything was really valuable. There was space to think and space to ponder things, or space to be bored, uh to try things and give them up. And all of that was so revealing to me about how we live our lives. Kind of broke down some of the conceptions that I know I have and others have as well.
Dr Olivia:Yeah. Um, you know, uh this this fear always of that you need to be doing something, but if you don't, I don't know what's gonna happen, you know? Um exactly. But you you you're on the other side of that. You've actually you've actually done it, yes, and and it's gone, you know, well. Yeah.
Cassie :Um so you you almost you were proven wrong. I was proven wrong, and I still am often proved wrong. I'm very open to it now. I really enjoy being proved wrong now. It's quite it's sort of fun. I'm like, oh yeah, right. Oh, there's another bit. There's another bit, you know, because I think it's a lifelong work, and I think it's about are we willing to step into that very awkward space where we say, okay, I'm just gonna pay attention to my children and who they are, and I want to hold them in a space that they can thrive. Now, what does that mean? Which shoulds am I gonna have to let go of in order to do that? Because the social messages we receive in our own childhoods tell us it is like this and it has to be like this. So at some point we're gonna have to say, actually, I'm gonna do this or I'm gonna try this. And a lot of this is in the quiet of our own homes. Nobody would know what we're doing. This is just how we are interacting with our children. Um, but obviously taking them out of school, for a lot of people, that feels like a very, very scary place, you know. Um it it really does feel quite scary, and I and I absolutely empathize with that. I felt very at sea at the beginning. Yeah.
Dr Olivia:And what what other big shoulds did you let go in that and did you let them go in the initial period, or was that that one big one, they're not going to school? Yeah, and then that one settle and go into another should?
Cassie :Like how did how did the how how did the shoulds drop off you, I guess? Yeah, well, I think that the i I had been doing that work since they'd been small, since we didn't necessarily, you know, I didn't have children that fitted the mold very well anyway. So I had already had to um understand that I had to that a lot of things were simply not our reality. So I'd already done some of that work, which I'm sure many parents listening have done that work, and understanding that, okay, everyone else may think it's A, B, or C, but I know my child needs D, so I'm gonna give D and I'm gonna be patient and not punishing, or you know, all of those things. I had worked through all of that. Um, but I think the thing about the shoulds is you don't really know you've got them until you're in that kind of thr in that kind of grip of them, where you've it it is almost it's a nervous system response to to life, you know. Um, and I think here is where our children are so phenomenal because they will give us the courage to do things that we would not do normally. So stepping away from school is a huge one. And that one for me um felt very difficult because I felt I was putting myself in a place where people wouldn't approve, wouldn't understand, and also I felt like I was isolating myself from a community. So there were lots of pieces in it that were complicated. And and just to say that the thing that really drove me to do that was I started to notice the dialogue around my child, and it was all problematic, and it was all about the things that I needed to sort of fix somehow, or ways things needed to be different. And I could feel this sort of deficit language, and I and that was the thing that made me think, no, I absolutely cannot hold any of my children in this kind of deficit lens. I don't want to look for what's wrong. Um, you know, we all have our challenges, and and when we have a neurodivergent child, a sense child that will have their challenges that we can help them with, but I'm not gonna look at them through that gaze. And that was really um the thing that sort of helped me gather up my strength, let's say, to did you your mom your mama bear kind of came out completely, completely. And I have to say that um I'm sorry, I think I've gone off tangent here a little bit, but yeah, so the shoulds. So just to say that there were some shoulds that I had let go of. I had let go already of we all eat together at the dinner table, let go of that one. You know, there were a lot that we let go of just for the the well-being of everybody and the harmony in the home. So we had all we were already not sort of parenting in a way that many people were parenting. We had already tried to make it far more collaborative than many people maybe, or consensual. Um, I think anyone listening who has a PDA child will understand this. Autonomy is very, you know, you you can't just be saying it is like this and expecting it to be like that. So we'd already had to do that um exploration around. So you'd almost done unparenting if you had to Yeah, we already we already knew that mainstream parenting was just all that kind of advice was not gonna be very helpful to us. So I had done that work. Um I had done it, I was in, you know, still doing that that work. Um so it wasn't a complete shock to the to the system, as it were. It was just kind of a continuation.
Dr Olivia:Okay, like the next step up from that. Yeah. And there's a big difference because and and I know I've been confused about this too, between unschooling and homeschooling. Yeah.
Cassie :Yeah, so I I think so. In the UK at least, um people tend to talk about home education, but I think the the the clearest sort of so far as learning goes, we could imagine homeschooling or or a more structured form of home education is probably curriculum-led. There's probably curriculum, there's probably a structure. Um, and unschooling in the in the in terms of learning is very much about the child being self-directed and having agency. Um the truth of it, from what I've seen, is that most people who are home educating in the UK, it's a very kind of everyone is kind of putting together what they put together. And most people are quite child-led. I haven't yet met anybody who actually does something that looks like school at home. The reason for that is that children, most children will not do that because it's such an unnatural way to learn and to be. Um, that most, and I've certainly spoken to parents who've tried to do that, and then they're like, after a day, they're like, well, this is a terrible waste of time. What are we doing? It's just wrecking our relationship, and he's unhappy, you know. Um, so very few people attempt school at home. They might have more or less structure. Um, I think when we come to unschooling, unschooling takes us kind of beyond learning, and it's a more of a kind of a whole approach to our child, um, which I would best describe as based on the premise that everyone is born to learn, to thrive, uh, to lead a meaningful life. And so as a parent, um, rather than sort of trying to make that happen, we try to make it happen and follow, um, you know, sort of direct them to that, it's about really discovering our child and giving them a space within which they can um understand themselves, have agency to make choices and decisions, um, choose what they're learning about, what they're engaging about, and really learning from a young age how to navigate life, really, um, in a very experiential way. And that will look entirely different for every child. Now, for some children, that may look like structured learning that looks like school, because that may be what they like, you know. It's I haven't seen much of that, but some children will want to go to workshops and everything they can get their hands on. Some children will be doing a lot of play, do it in an entirely different way. Some will be sociable, some won't. And so it really is who's this child? And um what do they really, what do they need? And we know a lot about human needs. So um, we know in self-determination uh theory, we know that we all need to feel connected and valued. Um, we all need to have agency that's absolutely essential to human, and we all need to be able to get really good at things. We want to feel competent at things. And so at home, in an unschooling kind of environment, we're really saying, all right, let's get those pieces in place so that this person can kind of emerge and we can discover them. Um, rather than them fitting our idea of what a child needs to be and what they will become, if that makes sense.
Dr Olivia:It does. It's a it's a really clear and wonderful way of describing it, and it does really illustrate for me then how well this then applies in neurodiversity, where children, you know, with ADHD, autism, dyslexia, they're can be very hyper-focused on something that might be something completely different, right? And also need to feel very safe in their environment too, to be able to learn and and and explore. So I can see really the connection between these two. What is your experience? And have you had any like you know, examples of how unschooling has supported kind of the neurodiverse um community?
Cassie :I think you're right. I think that safety is a huge one. And um, so first of all, in order to learn, we have to have a relaxed nervous system. I think we forget this at school, and parents are encouraged to drag their child in even when they don't want to do screaming and kicking. A child's not going to learn anything except that the world isn't cruel. Not to mention what's happened at home just to get them in the cart. Do you know what I mean? Like there's Yeah, and and what a terrible thing to do to the relationship with the parent as well. And so they're trust. So that sense of safety is so important. So at home, we can put the building blocks in place so that then that can kind of happen. Um, but what's very important is how we are, and I think we forget this because, like, okay, this is what needs to happen with my child, this is what I have to do for my child. But the most important, I would almost say, part of this is us and how we're holding that space. So I had a lovely um example. Oh, often what happens when we put the blocks in place and then we're able to stop trying to direct everything is that there's space for things to arise. And so a lovely example recently was a mother who did a course with me, and she um found her son's gaming very difficult to deal with. So he liked to game. I can't I can't quite remember the age, but um, and so she would come into the room if he'd been gaming for a while, and she would do that classic, oh, you're still on there, or okay, well, you're gonna have to end soon, or it's also a heaviness about the whole thing. She was terribly triggered by this because she felt like a bad parent, it wasn't going well, what would other people think? You know, so she's coming with all her baggage, and then she projecting it on him, because a good parent obviously also stops gaming. And so it would always end up another should. Yes, absolutely, one of the biggest shoulds. I should stop this. I should stop this. If I were a good parent, I put an end to this right now and I'll tick that box, even if my child's screaming at me. Um, right. So what she so what she did, and and I always encourage people to get curious about their child, get curious, and to first of all, rather than say, what's he doing then? Is he happy? Right, particularly if it's a child who's crashed out of school, who's had a terrible time, um, and as many do, and they're in burnout, they're anxious. So, first of all, how are they? We don't know why he's gaming. He might be gaming because it makes him feel good and brilliant at something. It may be for connection with other people, it may be he's feeling really down, he may be bored. We don't know unless we actually find out. So, what she did was she sort of came into the room that she and she sort of stopped herself at the door, she checked herself at the door, and she uh rather and she was able to stop that reactive, you know, uh response to him and able to just notice in her body what she was going on and then get curious about him, and she could see that he was very happy and relaxed, and she thought, well that's lovely. So then she said to him something along the lines of, Oh, you look like you're having fun. What are you doing? And he went, Oh, and he grabbed a chair and said, Come, come, come. And she sat with him for an hour and she saw what he was doing, and he was delighted because this was his passion. His mum was interested, and they had this beautiful hour together where she they connected. Um, you know, and then he left it and they went off and they got their dinner in the kitchen, you know. And it and it and she was like, Oh wow, and that's what opens up. If we can start reacting, we can focus on that relationship and what sort of opens up and um all sorts of stories about just when we start thinking how it should be, first of all, when we're thinking, oh, it should be like this, or or we see all the things that aren't happening that we think should be happening, we don't see what is happening. We're kind of blinded because we're not we just can't see it. So that being able to just regulate ourselves and go, okay, what's going on here? Um this new space opens up. And uh yeah, so I often hear it oftentimes just little magical things start happening. The child who just refused to go out of the house and it was an argument every day to get out, says, Hey, actually, today I'd like to go and do this. Because mum or dad now feels like a safe space. I can trust them. Um I'm free to express something. I know they're not gonna jump on it quickly and go, Yeah, yeah, let's, you know, like they're not gonna make me do something. Um so it's about just bringing those expectations down. And and I've seen it over and over again here, just um one of the most um the clearest memory of just me, yeah, thinking, okay, everyone's busy, so I'm not going to he's watching television. I wish he was doing something else. He's doing that, I wish he was and thinking, me thinking, oh well. And then uh going to sort of sit in the kitchen and do some writing or something, and then just this endless stream of them coming in to share things with me and to tell me about things, and then seeing how gaming uh for my eldest son, he loved to game, but then how that morphed into an interest in economics, politics, and he still games, and often the gaming turns into a conversation about economics, and then and it all feeds into each other because we're not saying no, it has to look like this. Um, so there's this kind of new flow that can start kind of appearing, it has space to appear.
Dr Olivia:It sounds amazing, and I guess it really starts with you as the parents kind of unloading your baggage, you know, that you've carried around, which you know it, you know, it isn't easy. It isn't easy. You know what I mean? Uh I I uh you know, I still speak to my father, he's like, So what are you doing today? You know, even if we go on holiday, you know, are you keeping up with this? You know, I'm like, ah, you know, uh, we have so much baggage that we actually have to, so you know, it sounds like unschooling starts with us. What what are some like advice that you would give how to unschool your, you know, that example was really great. That you know, that's one example, but it's almost like you have to get yourself. I imagine she got herself into that frame of mind before she had that interaction. So there's a lot of, I would say, some self-work that you need to do before you implement it with your children.
Cassie :Absolutely. It's all about us, and it's uh it's almost counterintuitive because we're so convinced it's all about our children. Yeah, exactly. So that's the first show that needs to go. Exactly. It's all about us. And I always kind of cool, I think there's this really, really difficult bit, which is between making the choice to sort of, you know, maybe come out of school and explore this and feeling remotely comfortable with it. And I call it like the leap of faith stage because you've got no proof it's working. Everyone else is telling you it won't work. Everyone else is going, yeah, but but what about college? But what about what about how do they learn? What do you do all day? You know, you're just getting doubts in from around you. It's a very wobbly space to be in. Um, but it's kind of inevitable. The discomfort is a part of it. And I always say, you know, embrace the discomfort, however hard that is. Um, but and I'll come back to that in a moment. So that is exactly where the learning is. It's that checking ourselves, why is my nervous system reactive right now? What's going on for me? You know, and it would imagine, you know, I remember, for example, my child, one of my children wanting to try out a forest school, and me going, yes, really, forest school, fantastic, yes, because it ticked a box for me. Uh socializing, that's learning, tick the box, and they go and they seem to like it more or less, and then the next week they don't want to go anymore. And that feeling of sort of devastation that we're not doing forest school anymore. And I look back, I think, oh why would I have been devastated about that? But there's a feeling of, oh my gosh, help. Like, like, oh no, it's not working now. Um so noticing in ourselves, I was clearly bringing so much there, wasn't I, beyond forward school to the table. So just noticing, checking ourselves, and our the our main piece of work is just noticing what's going on for me and seeing if we can pause. Because when we are reactive and something's triggered something in us, um, we go into this kind of tunnel vision place, we just want to fix it. We want the kid off the computer, we want you to go back to foreign school, we need to do some math now, right? Because that's me. It's got nothing to do with my childhood, it's just gonna make me feel better. And so checking ourselves, noticing, and somehow taking a pause. And it's really hard to do that if we're particularly if we're very reactive, but we have to somehow just practice doing that. And if we get it, if we don't, that's okay. We've got to be really nice to ourselves. And what I say is I've sort of got these four steps is that pause, and then our first step is to be self-compassionate. If we're being hard on ourselves and our message to ourselves is you're doing a really bad job of this, you're messing it up. Everyone said it would work. If you're doing that, you're piling on another layer of stress to your nervous system, which is already feeling strained. So, self-compassion practices, you know, whatever that looks like to you, be a good friend to yourself. It's hard. If you have a send child, you've got an added layer there. If you are out of school and you know, a little isolated, there is an added layer. There's so many layers to it. You're doing an amazing job. You're doing the best you can, and it's hard. So, starting with that, because also when we pause and we think, what's going on for me, we are very likely to hit on some very vulnerable parts of ourselves. It's inevitable. It's the bit of me that as a child needed approval, the bit of me that's scared of being alone. Like these are really, really hard places. If we're not kind to ourselves, we can't go there. We can't sit in that discomfort. The discomfort's too much. No, forest school. Go, go, get off that computer. I can't possibly sit with this horrible feeling that, you know, say we've got to learn to be in that space. And then once we've uh tried to help ourselves, then we can turn to our children. But let's start with ourselves, check ourselves, see if we can get into a better space. It may be that I don't need to do anything, it may have just been a narrative in my head that was spiraling. Like, oh, he's really happy. And then I start thinking about math. I think we haven't done any maths for a week. What if he gets behind in math? What if he never gets his GCSE, what if he never goes to your you know and I've gone from oh we're doing yeah I've gone from oh we're doing great to oh no this is a disaster in sort of two expecting uh you know from the government because he won't be able to get a job yeah yeah yeah yeah and they're gonna hate me forever blah blah blah and and so how can I how can I soothe myself and that narrative how can I come back to this present moment be here be kind to myself and then once we've kind of opened up that space again now I can start looking at my child say what are they actually doing am I making what assumptions am I coming to here? What's actually going on? How are they? What do I need right now? What do they need right now? What does our relationship need right now? And then come back to this child in this moment. Um not what we should be doing. No, what does this child need right now? If they need anything from us, how can I support them? What can I bring to this space to make this space feel even more like a space where this child can thrive? What does that look like? And something I discovered early on was actually tending the space could sometimes be the best thing I did. Okay might be just putting the I would put some classic music on the classical music on the radio you know if it's a warm day maybe open some windows make everything feel fresh if it's a you know daylight today a bit rainy you know maybe put a nice candle on make it feel cozy make it make the space feel nice so everyone goes oh this is nice it's nice to be at home you know and or and then see what comes and get curious about what they're talking about what they're interested in and to try to keep that the judginess the the critical part just keep noticing it when it comes up noticing noticing the resistance in your body noticing all the tension that comes up and just seeing can I keep trying to stay open so it's a practice. So for me I think there's this huge amount of intentionality that we have to bring to it and the understanding that there will be discomfort um so I also always say what do you need in place to do this work? I don't think we were ever mentioned meant to um parent in such isolation as we do now so what do you need? Who are the people that you need what are the resources the practices um that you need to sort of scaffold you to do this very difficult challenging and ultimately very satisfying work um understanding that you're about to enter a very uncomfortable quite an uncomfortable journey who do I need who are the voices who will help me um and so finding the those pieces to give you the strength to kind of get through that that uh transitional period it sounds like to a degree yeah yeah really looking to shore yourself up with whatever resources are going to be helpful for you and yes particularly that piece because then you start to notice things you're oh wow this has come oh he's interested in that she's doing that you start to actually you know as the days go by your confidence builds because you see uh you see it in action so you get so then you're getting the positive feedback yeah exactly to to yourself as well yeah and I think you've also probably worked through healing some of the the things in your past as well as looking at life differently um absolutely yeah I mean so many people say they were not aware of what a healing journey it would be for them and for them with their child particularly if they did go through school struggles that strained the relationship um it's such a healing process because it's entirely focused on the relationship you know that's the the sort of the heart of all of it is how are we? Are we okay? And that's the basis. If we're not okay let's get okay first what does that look like okay and now we can move on.
Dr Olivia:And I mean it makes it makes complete sense that that should be the most important thing yet we focus on the four school in the math homework as being the most important thing.
Cassie :You know yeah we focus on the content content's not so hard the other pieces of life and we know this as adults right we know that the bits of life that are difficult and not so much the content it's it it's yeah it's knowing how to make a choice it's knowing what's right for you and what's a should you know I meet so many parents you say I was quite successful at school but I never really understood what I needed or how to take care of myself or um you know I always felt I had to do this. So um you know I think when we give our children this space they really get very wise about themselves because they get they're very get very used to going hmm is this right for me or not? And again with an a send child who may find certain things particularly challenging for example anxiety may have social anxiety find you know social gatherings difficult it's such a wonderful thing to accompany them in that journey where they where you can go somewhere and say we can try it out and they may say no and that's okay. They're saying I don't feel that doesn't feel safe to me right now and that's okay. And then maybe one day they'll say okay yeah I'll try it okay and then we can stay for five minutes and we can go and you can go and they can sort of move out into the world I always think of it like a little bit kind of elastic band and you know and then bounce back again and they can do that at the pace they want to do and that feels safe for them. And while they are also learning how to advocate for themselves. I mean I can when you think about a child who doesn't feel capable of advocating for themselves it's very scary to think of they they have to sort of push out into the world without those skills of knowing how to protect themselves or into big spaces that feel unsafe for them. So helping them understand what feels safe. I had say you know my child for example there was a period where I had to call and make sure that anything we went to had no more than six children. Any workshop any group I had to check there with no more than six children and then we were like okay that's okay we can do that. Now anything you know we're he's just planning sort of travels travels to Japan at the moment you know that because he's he's also very aware of what his safe spaces and what feels alright. So they also get very good at going this isn't a space that I feel good in. This isn't a space that um I can advocate for myself in and I think it's just such a wonderful thing to nurture in our children that ability to know when something feels right for them and to know that they absolutely have the right and the power to say no not for me.
Dr Olivia:And they'll be submitted what's you know it's it's breeding self-confidence and self-worth and and not enabling tendencies like self you know pleasing other people or doing things because you should use that word again. Exactly yeah they won't have to go through the unparenting unschooling kind of uh self-work when they become parents because they'll be there already.
Cassie :Yeah I mean the hope is that of course we can't completely not you know there'll be things we get wrong there's absolutely there'll be things they have to unravel too there's no doubt whatsoever. But I but I think that that just that sense of who they are um can hopefully remain a little bit more intact simply because they do have some agency. I think something that that makes kind of makes me smile about unschooling is if you ever see it come up in the media or anything it they always talk about you know the family where the children do anything they want. That's the classic phrase they do anything they want and and I always laugh about that because I first of all I think well what what terrible scary things could possibly happen if children do anything they want there's this implication that if we let children choose it will all be out of control.
Dr Olivia:It'll be a terrible mess it'll be chaos but it what that to me sometimes I'd sit there in the house and be deathly quiet because everyone was just doing things it was never chaos it never felt chaotic it was so interesting and and um you know is it we just don't trust children we don't trust them so a lot of this is also going okay how can I build that trust and I think to your point earlier it's it's the experience right it's it's the actually seeing like you sat in that house and you experienced it.
Cassie :The proof is in the pudding so to speak yeah and that's absolutely you know you you uh your preconceptions are that it is going to go to hell in a hand basket and then absolutely yeah yeah all the all the catastrophizing oh gosh if he's gaming then you know you you you can't help it you know they're nine years old and there you are thinking about you're thinking about university or your future and you it it's sort of inevitable that that will happen but getting uh being aware oh look here I go I'm doing that again I'm doing that again and I always think like finding podcasts books things with people who've walked that path so helpful and where you can read the stories and um you know see how those children then did navigate their lives what did they do? Some will go to school and again that you know so one of my children my middle son decided to try school when he was 13 and he went to the local school we'd quite recently moved back to the UK he went for about five months and um then he said no it's it's a bit boring really I think I I I think I'll give this a a miss. And but it was interesting holding him through that because to me I we were still unschooling because it was entirely his choice and I was we supported him through that. So it's about choice and agency not about it looking a certain way.
Dr Olivia:Yeah not forcing forcing yeah right and how how do you manage this or how do or is it possible to manage if you work as a parent like how does it can it work with people working?
Cassie :Yeah I mean I think it's uh a lot depends on the age of a children and um obviously you can't leave them alone at all exactly exactly chaos might ensue chaos might ensue absolutely so I think I've seen people do all sorts of things oftentimes there's a kind of tag team with the partner one working these hours one's working these hours I've seen people move house to be nearer parents uh downsize the family home so one parent is working from home um or maybe I think at this point if you have community and again you're very dependent on your child's capacity I think here in being in community with others at that point um there may be you know getting together with other families and working out some kind of childcare arrangement. I'm seeing all sorts of things there are also more and more um kind of home educating uh kind of hubs where my in fact my eldest went for about for about three years he went to pretty much every workshop they had going um and so there are places that do offer kind of a self-directed learning um kind of experience where the child has agency but they're in a group and they're learning together. So there's lots of those things around as well. So I've seen a lot of people just sort of cobble it together the best they can. Yeah and and and I think that's terribly hard. There's also a a lot of wonderful things that can come out of that. But yes and I you know I appreciate it it's difficult because not many people are doing this. So but more and more there are more resources I think that you can tap into depending on where where you are um where you're at we have seen that happen. And of course if you can work from home again I found that working from home um my children you know people are like oh I I feel I feel terribly guilty because I'm working well you know this is about all then living together it's about living in a community which is the family and everyone appreciating that this person right now has this to do so we're gonna respect that and we'll all do that for each other. So if my son has a Japanese class and he says can everyone please keep the noise down while I'm on a Japanese class we'll keep the noise down and we you know and now if I am recording something they're older now but if I was recording something I kept the door closed they knew that that that they they totally respected that. You know so again it's that trust piece.
Dr Olivia:It's that give and take and and you know yeah yeah and and that understanding I mean I had my daughter this weekend she came in because I work in the mornings I get up early and I get my good working she comes Mommy it's so great that you have a passion that you love doing that you even wake up on a Saturday morning and you know you sit and do it because you love it so much. And I said it is and I said you know I want you to find that passion in your life too you know and then she'll sit and do something that she's passionate about. You know she'll get her computer and do a script or whatever she's into and it's it's it's lovely to see. And what you're kind of describing to me is that all the time.
Cassie :Yeah I love that you said that because we are we are we forget this but we're modeling what does it look like to live what does it look like to be the kind of human that we would like to be or we think we would like them to be and we have to kind of show that. So that's lovely that in your daughter's totally picking up on that and I think yeah show them your passions bring your work into the home show them what you do show them what the bits that you find difficult the bits that are fantastic the bits you love you know like show that to them let that be a part of the home um yeah and just sort of modeling that yeah oftentimes that feels to me like it's a kind of um it would often feel like a bit of a co-working to me. Yeah yeah just that kind of easy come and go and then sometimes you're hands on with someone of course and a lot of ours has been conversation um a lot of it's been talking talking and talking where someone's got kind of into something and then they'll hey did you know and then there'll be like a long conversation a lot of debates luckily their father has more capacity to debate with them till two in the morning than I do. I'm like oh please um a lot of talking a lot of talking that's been um huge for us um but yes I think that at the beginning you're thinking okay what do we do today what do I have to make happen today what will we do and then as you pull back from that you just notice that it feels really nice it's just that relaxed living together um when you stop worrying about what everyone is doing it's just so delightful it feels really freeing um because then you do you can get that sense of spaciousness and I I don't want to say it's there aren't times that people will find very very difficult I don't mean to paint this as some kind of you know utopian dream there will be uh places which are difficult but I just actually I'll bring something in here which I was just pondering this morning which is that if we can hold on to the idea and and the knowledge that everything has value you never get it wrong how can we accompany each moment so I was thinking about my daughter a couple of years ago and we were like hey we could do this kind of like there was some kind of art project can't remember when we got kind of excited about it we went out we bought all the things and you know we set it up in the kitchen and there we are you know it's like oh this is gonna be a lovely afternoon of doing this and um within about half an hour it it hadn't gone well and there was a lot of stamping of feet and a lot of frustration big frustration right um and I was left in the kitchen looking at you know this looking at it all the project and I thought and I could feel my frustration rising right and and I thought oh well I now so she's frustrated because it hasn't gone to plan but I'm frustrated because it hasn't gone to plan. We're living the exact same thing. Yeah and I thought well maybe this afternoon isn't about this art project. This afternoon's about accompanying frustration what does that look like? What a beautiful lesson am I able to figure sit with my frustration come back to a place where I can now accompany her frustration you know like can I do that work? And I and and yeah okay now if I do that and if I do that what would most likely if I didn't do that I would say okay listen I spent a ton of money this morning go on you said that if you don't stick at things you'll never get anywhere right we could do all of that or I could understand what frustration is and how horrible that feels because it does feel horrible. And then I could and and and that day in fact what happened was I just let it go I had a cup of tea I went and did something else like I can't remember it. I thought that's fine frustration feels difficult. And then about an hour later just okay she's down again just should we have another go? Yeah you know yeah absolutely and and again if we can not react but go okay I'm gonna give this space and understanding on compassion which starts by me going I gotta be nice to myself here because I'm also feeling this what might happen? I don't know.
Dr Olivia:What might definitely definitely better than uh you know screaming about the cost of it and trying to force someone to sit down let me tell you yeah you know which way it could go. So by letting go there's a maybe a different way that it could go.
Cassie :Yeah right and I think there's something here which is about sitting in the unknown can I sit in here and not know how it's gonna turn out and it's really hard for adults probably hard for anybody but isn't not trying to force it. Yeah like I want this outcome I'm gonna make this outcome happen because that's the outcome I need can I sit here and go okay well this is not quite what I expected but I'm gonna just trust this moment will land somehow and I'm not gonna force it in a direction that actually is definitely not going to be a good direction.
Dr Olivia:Yeah absolutely and then you you know through frustration to come back and sit on her own terms is also really good as well because she's been frustrated she's gotten over it and she's come back. When we look though at like parents is kind of they have this huge checklist as you mentioned earlier of like things that they have to get right you know including GCSEs and college and everything like that. If we looked at some of the fears and concerns that you know that are in parents' minds like if I do this it I it sounds great. You know what I mean? Like I think no parent would disagree that this sounds wonderful and we would all love to be living the life and I know you you've painted a nice picture and there are they're not it's not always sunshine but it sounds really good. But how as a parent who's worried about like okay well how how about not getting GCSEs not you know how how would you address that?
Cassie :Yeah well I think it's a reality that your child might not get GCSEs but it's also a reality that um I think that what I have discovered is that I feel very trusting in their futures because I know that they when they make a choice they really make a choice that feels good to them. And so for example their journeys are all very different at the moment mine are now 19 17 and 13 um my 17 year old he um so in the UK for example it's very easy to do GCSEs out of school um and he decided about I guess when he was about 15 he said oh I think I'm gonna go to sixth form I'm gonna go to university I want to go to sixth form now before that if ever I mentioned GCSEs I I would say that I think that it is part of our role to make sure that they are aware of what is on offer. They are if someone says I think I'm gonna go to university then you know we may at that point may need to bring in okay these are the steps that you would need right and we don't have to force them but I think we just have to keep them aware of options and how things work obviously although they do see that. But so he um less than a year before going to sixth form college decided he would go and he took uh five GCSEs from home and within the space of about seven months and then went to sixth form college where he is now and he's loving that and he's with some of the children that he actually went to secondary school with for his brief four months at secondary school. And that's amazing. I mean it's interesting to hear him talk about he says everyone's so relaxed here. It's so nice because it's first time with teachers there's no uniform they can go out and about in the city where the the college is and and he's loving it but he's really enjoying that atmosphere and he um for example to to come back to that question about what about the future what I see is that they are so used to being making their own choices being responsible for their own choices. They know how they work they know how they study if they go to a class or a course it's because they are a hundred percent there. They don't have to so he is a hundred percent there in in what he's doing that he takes full responsibility for that choice. It's not because he couldn't think of anything else to do. He's there because this is what he's chosen and um so he really shows up um and they all show up for the things they choose because the choice is theirs right it's not oh well I have to and if ever one of them says well well I have to I'll say are you sure about that? Are you sure you have to like bring yourself into this choice. Don't ever go through life thinking oh I have to do you maybe sometimes maybe but often we think that more than is true. So to anyone who is doubtful I would also say that as a child gets older and they get to 12, 13 14 they get clearer and clearer about things they like and they're very likely to say hmm actually I'd like to go down this path or actually I'll go down this path. And so they they sort of come to these choices and my my um my 19 year old he did a two-year um course our local college in um performing arts um and really enjoyed that and now he's looking to travel um you know so you you can't foresee what they'll do. There's no way really did he do GCS or he didn't do GCSEs? He did a couple at college because he had to as part of his course. But what's been very interesting has been whenever they've had to do something or they've been in classes with children who were there because they have to do that. They've both told me about how the energy of those classes is distinctly different from the energy of the classes where everyone is there by choice. There's this kind of like ooh heaviness to those ones because nobody wants to be there where there's a lightness to learning because you want to be there. So it's been just been very interesting uh seeing but I I would say it um yeah I can totally understand uh the worry but that they do make their own paths and they become very competent at doing that. And also there's no, you know, does a child have to go to university at 18? They can go at 20 they can go later you know like maybe we have to also we potentially have some work to do ourselves around what we think is successful or what we think has to be um the path.
Dr Olivia:Absolutely yeah and also I mean especially if neurodiverse children you know their chronological age doesn't meet up to their actual kind of where their acting age oftentimes there's a there's a gap there, you know? And so you're putting them in a situation that they're not really mature enough. Their brains really aren't mature enough for it yet, you know and so you're you're setting them up for failure. So waiting a couple of years isn't a bad idea you know giving them time to experience life and mature and then also decide what they want to do, find that passion which is then going to motivate and hyper focus them isn't a bad idea. But again it it's us that needs to break down those shoulds they should be taking their GCSEs when they're 16 and they should be doing this.
Cassie :Right I mean yeah you can you know you could take GCSEs at any age. I mean I know um children who don't go to school who maybe take a couple when they're 15 and then they take a couple more or you know just so many different paths. And I think that it can be helpful to think of our children as adults and not really think about that getting them to 18 but we what human being do we you know how do we want them to live their lives you know as adults what are the qualities what makes a happy life and maybe to just think that and not feel so pressured to get to a place or get them to a place um and think really yeah thinking much more sort of longer term what does a happy life look like what does a good life look like what will it look like for them because they're not us as well so they maybe have a different interpretation of that so um but yeah I think we can be so focused on the goal. And I I again I think this is something about learning as well which we realise when your children are not at school and they're learning in their own way um where there's no curriculum it's just an open-ended exploration um and the learning really is very joyful. So something I'm very um very delighted by is that we've never had an argument about learning. Learning has never been a topic for it's just been rich and enjoyable you know and countless times a day your child will probably come to you with a video they need to show you about I don't know North Korea or you know penguins or whatever it is. And and and that's really delightful and joyful and so I think they become lifelong learners in a in a way that most of us probably we all are we all lifelong learners but in a way that they never say oh I don't think I could do that. They just think oh that's interesting. I'll follow that I'll figure out how to I'll learn more about it.
Dr Olivia:Yeah. I want to follow that thread. You know what greater gift could you give them in life in all honesty? I mean it's that's magical.
Cassie :Yeah yeah I mean it's uh you know like I said you know like I say it's um it yeah it it's lovely because you I think the most important thing that that I've taken away from it is just how unique they all are and how different they are from me and and how and and what good company they each are in their own way. Um and and when you yeah I can't really I can't really put into words what what I've taken out of it. I mean they've really been um a source of huge amount of learning for me they've just done their thing I it's in the book but I said to one of my I said my my middle child a few years ago I said what do you think about the word unschooling and he went eh I don't really like it because it hasn't got much to do with school I said well what would you call it and he said I think I'd just probably call it living I think you're right there to they're they're not unschooled they've just got on with life they haven't there's no label for them they're just doing what they do you know so we're very hung up on labels. But we are indeed they're just living aren't they? Because they know how to do that.
Dr Olivia:Well it's been a pleasure speaking to you today Esther and it's been you've definitely opened up my mind to to to ponder on many many things. I have a feeling I'm gonna have to get a journal and start writing all the things that I think should happen and then asking myself why that's a great start absolutely my daughter's going to be amazed and confused but um what what I like to end my podcast with like what top three tips would you give a parent like myself who's like listened to this and you know um is going through you know I started out with the meltdowns, the school refusals, you know, they're not fitting into school yeah it's difficult. What would your advice be?
Cassie :Yeah so I would say um if you are taking them out of school I would first of all be very gentle with yourself and remind yourself you really matter. You are probably the most important part of it. You're not the last priority you're not an extra you're the key to it all. So how you are matters. And sometimes it's just a question of reminding ourselves that and changing our mind shift around that rather than actually doing anything particular. Secondly relationship is always the most important thing. Nothing should be more important than the relationship. There's no piece of learning that can possibly be more important. So always keep trying to find your way back to the relationship even when there's conflict things seem to go wrong how can I get back there how and show them you can always get back together. You can always reconnect what does that look like so place in the relationship first and then I would say just be really really curious about everything about what's going on for you about what they're doing about how they are about what they like curiosity is our biggest friend because every time we get curious we see things that we didn't know existed and those are the things that will give us confidence so getting really curious about all of it there's nothing ever going wrong. It's never wrong it's just something else for us to get curious about and to learn how to navigate even if that right now is school refusal and figuring it all out how can we navigate this in a way that's kind to us both and that we put the relationship first whatever you're doing I think those three things or whatever point in the journey are um our key.
Dr Olivia:Yeah and really kind of recenter and kind of ground you in the moment.
Cassie :Yes and yes so I often talk about I'm sorry no we're I do but schooling with this kind of mindfulness in action it really is it is that going okay I've gone into some spiraling narrative okay can I stop? Can I come back to the present moment? Okay, where are we? What what's happening right now, right here for us what can I do with that? How can I navigate that? So it's about keep coming back always to the actual present moment.
Dr Olivia:Um yeah yeah and that's that's actually the the I mean so key and I know we're ending too but it is so key because it is that spiraling into the future and it's also the the baggage from the past which is That is in the moment that is causing a lot of the angst we feel in the moment that's disenabling us to be able to to to connect and to be with each other and to to to flourish really in whatever situation life throws at you.
Cassie :Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I remember, for example, I remember an afternoon, and I know we're finishing last I remember an afternoon where no one was doing anything, right? There was nothing happening, and it was just we put a film on and someone said, Oh, should we have some hot chocolate? And so there were the four of us, myself and the three children, um, watching a film and drinking hot chocolate. I was like a Tuesday afternoon, it's three o'clock in the afternoon, right? Um, and there's part of me going, Oh my god, Tuesday afternoon, we're just drinking hot chocolate um and feeling terrible about it, but then relaxing into it, and it felt like the most precious gift. Sitting there with them all, feeling connected and warm. And then I look back on it and I think, wow, what a gift. A Tuesday afternoon drinking hot chocolate, watching television. What a gift, what a gift. And you think, wow, yeah, what could we have been doing that in any of our memories could possibly have been better than that, right? Absolutely. And so it's that, it's really treasuring connection, I think. Um, yeah.
Dr Olivia:I think that's it, and that is a great story to end us on, Esther. Thank you so much for joining us. And all of your details will be in the show notes, and so that everyone can uh reach out and get your book and everything like that. So thank you for your time today. It's been an absolute pleasure having you on the show. Thank you so much.
Cassie :It's been lovely.
Dr Olivia:Thank you for listening, Send Parenting Tribe. If you'd like to learn more, you can find Esther's book, website, and podcast in the show notes. Just click on the links. If this episode really resonated with you, please share it with another parent who might be struggling with the school system and needs to hear about another way that you can live your life. And before you go, I'd love to invite you to join my new community, the ADHD Warrior Mom Recharge Station. It's just launched to founding members this month, and it's a space especially designed for moms who are struggling, need support, need practical tools, and need to recharge their parenting batteries. So you can find the links to that also in the show notes. And for this month, it is 50% off. So it's only 29 pounds a month, and for that, you'll get a one-on-one coaching session with me. You'll get access to group coaching. We have a masterclass with an expert coming every month, and we have a recharge and refuel. And also, it's a great way to connect to other moms who understand. As always, thank you for being part of the Send Parenting community. Together, we are changing the story for our neurodiverse children.