SEND Parenting Podcast
Welcome to the Send Parenting Podcast. I'm your neurodiverse host, Dr Olivia Kessel, and, more importantly, I am a mother to my wonderfully neurodivergent daughter, Alexandra, who really inspired this podcast.
As a veteran in navigating the world of neurodiversity, I have uncovered a wealth of misinformation, alongside many answers and solutions that were never taught to me in medical school or in any of the parenting handbooks.
Each week on this podcast, I will be bringing the experts to your ears to empower you on your parenting crusade.
SEND Parenting Podcast
EP 144: When School Doesn't Fit: The Homeschool Solution
What if the problem isn't your child—it's the system?
If school mornings feel like a battlefield and your child is shrinking under constant pressure, this episode offers hope. Dr. Olivia sits down with Cassie Olguin—homeschooling mother of three (including neurodivergent twins) and Outschool education lead—to explore what learning looks like when you step outside the traditional classroom.
Cassie's Journey: From early motor delays and night terrors to navigating autism, ADHD, OCD, and anxiety, Cassie shares the messy, real path many families walk. You'll discover how labels became tools for changing the environment—not verdicts on her daughter's potential.
What You'll Learn: ✨ Charter homeschooling demystified – How oversight works without rigid timetables
✨ Personal pace over grade levels – Why your child doesn't need to "keep up"
✨ Practical strategies that worked – Delaying reading until readiness, reframing maths as everyday numeracy, using interest-led classes
✨ Outschool's magic – Live sessions with expert tutors (think: veterinary science with a practicing vet, maths through Minecraft, virtual history escape rooms)
✨ Redefining success – Why standardised tests don't measure intelligence, creativity, or resilience
The Twin Perspective: Perhaps most moving: Cassie's twins are taking completely different educational paths through adolescence. One thrives with college-level work; the other flourishes at a gentler pace. Different tracks, equal worth.
Key Takeaways for Parents:
- Start without decision paralysis—you don't need to figure it all out at once
- Find your support network and share resources
- Outsource subjects you don't love (yes, really!)
- Mastery-based learning vs. arbitrary grade levels
- Small online classes that respect sensory needs and attention spans
If your child is struggling, this conversation offers relief, clarity, and a roadmap forward.
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Welcome to the Send Parenting Podcast. I'm your neurodiverse host, Dr. Olivia Kessel. And more importantly, I'm mother to my wonderfully neurodivergent daughter, Alexandra, who really inspired this podcast. As a veteran in navigating the world of neurodiversity in a UK education system, I've uncovered a wealth of misinformation, alongside many answers and solutions that were never taught to me in medical school or in any of the parenting handbooks. Each week on this podcast, I will be bringing the experts to your ears to empower you on your parenting crusade. It was 6 30 a.m. when my daughter bit me over a TV remote control. Not because she was bad, but because her ADHD brain was completely overwhelmed, and I had no idea how to help her. I'm Dr. Olivia, and that morning broke me. But it also changed everything. If you're a mom raising an ADHD child, you know this feeling. The exhaustion, the judgment, the constant battles, the walking on eggshells. You love your child fiercely, but you're drowning in survival mode. That's why I created the ADHD Warrior Mom Recharge Station. A sanctuary for exhausted mothers like me who need more than just advice. They need a try. Inside you'll find weekly coaching calls with me, expert questions and answers, with global ADHD experts, practical strategies that you can use and a community that finally gets it. This isn't about perfect parenting. It's about recharging so you can rise. Join us today at www.sendparenting.com backslash join. The link is also in the show notes. And discover that you're not alone. You really are a warrior mom. In this episode, we're diving into what happens when school simply does not fit your child. And how stepping outside traditional systems of education can open doors to learning, connection, and confidence. My guest today, Casey Olgan, is a homeschooling mother of three and the alternative education content and events manager at Out School. For over a decade, Casey has been reimagining education for her family, including one neurodivergent daughter with autism, ADHD, and anxiety, and helping other parents to do the same. Through her own journey, Casey has learned that education does not have to look one way to be meaningful. We'll explore what homeschooling and unschooling really look like, how to nurture independence and curiosity, and why personalized learning may be the key to helping our children thrive. So if your child is struggling in a traditional school environment, or you're simply curious about alternative education, this conversation will give you both reassurance and inspiration that there is more than one path to success. So, welcome, Cassie. It is such a pleasure to have you on the Send Parenting podcast today. You're a homeschooling mother of three, you're an outschool education specialist, and you're a strong advocate for personalized learning. But the most interesting thing I think is the fact that you have twins and one is neurodiverse and one is neurotypical. And I just have to, you know, any parenting woes I've let myself in on, I've just, you know, thrown those in the rubbish bin because I can't imagine what life must be like living in your household.
Cassie Olgun:So please, could you share with us a little bit about your journey? Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for having me, first of all. Um, I was really excited to record this podcast. I so enjoyed our conversation earlier and um just listening to some of your previous episodes. Um, but yeah, we are a homeschool family of three girls. Um, I have three daughters, and like you mentioned, um, two of them are twins. Um, I have an older daughter who is 17, and then the twins are 13. So we're entering those teen years, um, which is hormones in your house must be just yes, my husband is is surrounded. Um so um, but yeah, so it is um, you know, I mean, having twins is an experience from day one, you know, quite honestly, having multiples. Um, hats off to people who have triplets and quadruplets, etc. Um, but you know, it it was a challenge just from the beginning. You're my husband and I actually had uh friends who had twins around the same time we did, but it was their first kids where we, you know, we had had an older daughter. So we always talked about, you know, at the 2 a.m. feedings, like you think it's easier to just not know, you know, to just like trial by fire, or do you think it's easier for us because we have a daughter and like we kind of know some of the baby things, but I mean, you know, there's no sleep and there's uh it's a little bit crazy. And um, you know, they are they are fraternal, so they're not identical. Um, very fraternal. They in some, and especially now, I mean, they do not almost look related in some ways. Um, and um, but you know, kind of at an earlier age, we started noticing some things with our one daughter that were just a little different. I have the benefit of having a parent who is a retired special ed teacher. Um, so I have, you know, had insight into kind of some of those earlier developmental things that sometimes families don't always have, um, which was a benefit to me. Um, but we started noticing some things more like developmental delays. She didn't walk at the same time as her twin. And you, you know, kids are kids. So you know that like it just because one walks at 11 months and one doesn't, it doesn't necessarily mean anything. But um, but we just started kind of noting like a totality of things that were different. She would sit in her high chair when she was eating and like flap all of her limbs and different things. And so um there were things she was doing that her her twin was not um, or that she wasn't doing that her twin was. Um and and so we we were able to, I live in California and we were able to uh talk with the local regional center, which provides services for not just children, adults as well, um, you know, who have different needs. And she qualified. She had some developmental, some fine and gross motor delays and some other issues that they felt that she qualified for services. So she received services until she was about three, at which point you get tested to like go into a school setting. And um they basically said, Well, yeah, she needs OT and she needs PT and she needs all these things, but she can function in a classroom. So we're not gonna give her any services.
Dr Olivia:Um, you know, it's so funny because I live on the other side of the pond in England, and it it it was this it was the same thing, you know, speech and language difficulties, but she's not bad enough, really, to need, you know, a a speech therapist from the NHS. So, you know, you're kind of on your own here. She's not doing bad enough. She's, you know, yeah, it's it's a trick.
Cassie Olgun:And and that for her, her speech was off the charts. So, like, and they even kind of said if she'd qualified for speech, we could have given her all of the rest of it. Oh my goodness. But because she didn't qualify for speech and it wasn't even close to qualifying for speech, that um it was, you know, no-go. So we pursued a lot of that stuff through our health insurance. Luckily, we were, you know, blessed enough to have health insurance that stepped in and did the OT and did some different things. Um, but you know, fast forward through uh her adolescence, you know, she struggled with things like night terrors. Like I've never seen. Um, I still have video of it because we were just like, what is going on? And we would tape it so we could show her pediatrician and you know, what is going on here. And do you want to describe that for the listeners what night terrors are? Yeah. Um, so they're not like nightmares. You know, we all kind of have had bad dreams, right? Um, um, but night terrors are, oh man, they are an experience. I mean, where she I mean, I don't we don't even know what they were about at this point. She she couldn't even describe them, so I couldn't tell you, but you know, screaming, like screaming, um, like you're terrified of something, right? And I mean, kind of she had long hair and kind of pulling at her hair, like because of the terror. And um, they say, which we did find worked for us, that not to touch them when they're having or touch anyone when they're having a nightmare, because you can be feeding into whatever that terror is, um, and just kind of be there and watch it's very like it goes against the brain of like an apparent desire at that point because you want to hug them and hold them in comfort. And it is, you know, the the the thought there is don't touch them, be there to watch to make sure they don't like fall out of bed or hurt themselves, but um, but make sure you're not feeding into whatever the terror that they're experiencing is, and so it could be um almost nightly at different points where there was just screaming and um don't ask, don't ask me why, but which she would eventually most of the time wake up, we would wake up and then still kind of be verklumped and like just out of sorts and not be able to really go back to bed. So we would watch one of two movies. She had two go-to movies. We would watch Into the Woods, um, the the newer Disney version, and or Maleficent, which is kind of scary at times. And she, for whatever reason, loved it, and it would help get her back to a place of calm and back to sleep. So um, I mean, the night terrors are terrifying. I think they're they may almost be more terrifying in the moment for the person who's watching it, because the person who's experiencing it isn't necessarily even totally aware of it. Like she would wake up then later and not necessarily remember that it had even happened. Um so we started seeing things like that. And um, and then eventually, you know, as she got a little older, um, she was about, you know, I mean, just things like sensory issues where the seatbelt wouldn't feel right or the shoes wouldn't feel right. I mean, I've I have taken that girl to like three or four different stores over the course of a day, and we've tried on every pair of shoes that they have, and none of it feels right. Um, she would go through seasons where she would wear the same dress every single day. And as a twin, luckily you we usually had two of everything. So we were able to kind of rotate. Um, but and I, you know, I would talk to her treating providers and say, Hey, is this okay? And they, you know, we live in Southern California, so the weather's nice, but they kind of said, Hey, as long as she's not, it's not like dangerous, you know, we don't live where it snows. So it's not like she's trying to wear a sundress in, you know, 20-degree weather. Um, so you're okay to kind of let her do her thing. Um, none of it was ever truly like a sensory processing issue in terms of consistency. So some sometimes like sequins, she was totally fine with them. And then other times not so much. You know, sometimes straps, a certain kind of strap would bother her. And then another time it didn't. And it would, it came in like chunks, where it would be like for a couple weeks or a couple months, this is the thing I want, or this is the thing I don't want. And then it could switch just like that. And suddenly that thing that I hated for two months is totally cool. And so it was very challenging for us as to know, okay, well, I would buy this clothing item thinking, well, she's good because she likes this, and then just suddenly she's not. Um, so that was, you know, challenging. And then um eventually when she was eight, um, we went through a period of really, really hard um, just a really hard season where she really wasn't eating. So many of us, myself included, are stress eaters. Um, she is not. She tends to avoid food when she is anxious. Um, and then because of the sensory component, um, she also won't eat because things feel funny or, you know, in her mouth. So she was going through a season where she would not really eat. And we were getting to the point where, I mean, thankfully she drinks a lot of water and that's never been an issue. So hydration was not something we were really concerned with. But um, you know, nutrient-wise, we were eating sometimes like a single blueberry a day. I mean, just like nothing. And she's already super small, and um she uh definitely was like losing weight at that point. And when, you know, when I lose four pounds, no one's gonna notice. But when she lost four pounds and she only weighed 40 pounds, you were, you know, noticing it pretty heavily. So we finally talked to a psychiatrist, um, a family friend who's a psychiatrist, and that I was describing everything to her, and this was um like November, December of 2019, so right before COVID hit. And um, that psychiatrist said, Do you think she has like has anyone ever talked to you about OCD? Because this sounds to me like some classic OCD symptoms. And I said, Well, no, no one's, you know, everyone's talked about anxiety. She has an anxiety disorder. And um, and she said, Well, I I think she has OCD. Like, I would like to examine her and see her. So at the time, getting her to ride in a car was almost impossible. So I had to kind of force her in, and and we got her to her clinic and we did an evaluation and some different things, and you know, that was ultimately the diagnosis. So um, that was her first diagnosis. Um, fast forward, you know, COVID hits. Um, she can be incre she's incredibly extroverted, she can make friends with anybody, um, almost to a fault where there's like a level of no stranger danger, which can be a little concerning. But um, but she um, you know, also is a homebody. She loves, she can play by herself for hours, she can create, she can do those things. So COVID kind of was okay for her in that regard, where she just was at home and loved to craft and do her thing. And um, so it was kind of through COVID we started, you know, we were able to kind of start, we'd been seeing a therapist through her health insurance, so um, but under the auspice of the anxiety disorder. And so then we added in the OCD treatment. Obviously, COVID hits, we're no longer able to see people in person, we're having to shift everything online, um, which, you know, it thankfully we had the technology to do that. So it wasn't like we had nothing, but it's not necessarily as effective as the in-person um treatment options. So um we did that and fast forward, fast forward. And then eventually, um, around the time she turned 10, so a couple years later, um, you know, we had we had been talking about an autism diagnosis for a number of years. And kind of the prevailing thought was, well, um, you know, there's a lot of overlaps, right? I mean, we we talk about that in in the world of neurodiversity, that there's so many overlaps between all kinds of different things that um at the time, plus you're an adolescent, so there's also just things that kids do that can be hard. Um, so her psychiatrist at the time kind of said, you know, I'm I'm hesitant to diagnose um autism too soon. I want to kind of let's see if some some of these behaviors she could grow out of, some of them could just be the OCD, um, different things. So we kind of fast-forwarded a couple years and we were ready to do an autism evaluation. And at that point, you know, we'd been treating with the same therapist for consistently now for two and a half years. We had the same psychiatrist, um, and we had this meeting, and he kind of said, Well, I'm ready to just diagnose her. And I said, Okay, I said, Okay. I said, Okay. Well, you've reached that point, have you? And I kind of said, Okay, well, do you need, do we need to do like the formal testing? Does it get me anything else? Will it get her any access to services that you know she wouldn't have otherwise? And he was like, No. He said no. I said, Okay, well, then we don't need to do all that. Um, in hindsight, I do wonder if we had done the formal testing, if like maybe we would have had some more insights. But um, she presents in such a unique way that um yeah, I don't I don't know that we would have. So the autism diagnosis came around 10. And um, like you mentioned at the beginning, we do homeschool. Um, in California, we use what's called an independent charter school. So, technically speaking, my kids are public school students. Um, they get funding that they are able to then use on academic um, you know, curriculum and different things like that. Um, but I do the, you know, the it all happens at home. They're they are home, they don't have to go to a building, etc.
Dr Olivia:But that's really that's really interesting. So it's it's the it's the you follow the curriculum that would be in what we would call mainstream school, but you call uh no, you don't not even that. No, not even that.
Cassie Olgun:You no, I mean you can. So they will have so they'll give you funding and you can do what you want. For the most part. I mean, there are restrictions. So I mean, you can't, it's still public funding, so you can't use it on like religious curricula. Um, you deal do you still have to have like a learning plan and and justify out why am I buying, you know, especially for someone like her. So she's bel, she's behind in math. So if I'm buying, she's say she's in sixth grade and I'm buying third grade math, we have to kind of have a conversation about, well, why is that kind of a thing? But essentially, you can um pick whatever curriculum you want. You don't have to pick, you know, we in in the homeschool charter world in California, you're assigned a credential teacher. So there is like a someone who's kind of overseeing, but they're not doing the teaching. They're just kind of there to if I come to them and say, hey, I'm this curriculum I picked for history isn't working out, could you have a suggestion? They're there to make sure that um, you know, that work samples are being turned in, that attendance is being taken. But I am the one taking that attendance. I'm the one providing the work samples, I'm the one doing all of those things.
Dr Olivia:Um it's kind of like school at home, but you can kind of choose what you so it sounds like there's there's topics.
Cassie Olgun:So I would imagine there's English, math, science, that the normal topic were the main subjects that a traditional student would, but most homeschoolers do anyways. So, you know, that part of it isn't isn't really different than um you know, than what a traditional homeschooler who's not under a like an oversight. And in the United States, I mean there are other oversight uh there's other options for homeschooling that have oversight. So you can do things like an umbrella school where you kind of pay a uh it can range from anywhere from like a couple hundred dollars to a thousand dollars, depending on what they offer, where um you can pay them a specific fee, and they are doing those things where they're gonna collect work samples for you and keep like a portfolio, where they're gonna help take attendance records. You know, different states in the United States have different homeschool laws. So dependent upon your state as well, you may need more oversight. You may need certain states require like standardized testing for homeschool kids, whether they're in the traditional setting or not. California does not, but Tennessee does, you know, different different states require different things. Um, different states require some states require you keep a portfolio or attendance records in very specific ways, and then even turn those into the state. Where where California does require some of that stuff, that you don't ever actually have to give it to anybody. So, um, you know, so it's kind of just like you know, out there.
Dr Olivia:Um and so you are you homeschooled all of your three kids from from from day one?
Cassie Olgun:No, my oldest was in kindergarten in a traditional setting.
Dr Olivia:Okay.
Cassie Olgun:So she she did do kindergarten in traditional setting, and we pulled her after that. Um and then she's a what we in the United States, she's a senior in high school, so in her last year of school. Um, and um she did do traditional school for her ninth grade year. So her first year of high school, uh, wanted to try it out, wanted to do that. Um, kind of found pretty quickly that there were aspects of it she didn't love, um, but stuck it out for the whole year and she enjoyed it. She had a good time. She did, she's a great student. Um, and then her sophomore and junior year, she actually lived out of state. She was uh she's a ballet dancer and she lived out of state at some pre-professional ballet programs that um she was training full-time. So in those settings, you're in, you're taking dance classes Monday through Friday, like 9 a.m. to 3 p.m. So you have to do some sort of alternative education. Um, all of the kids who are in those programs are doing some sort of online school or homeschool or something. Um so she went back to a non-traditional school for those two years. Um, and then an injury unfortunately has kind of sidelined her. And so she's back home here and said she wanted to do her senior year at um our local high school and do the traditional, you know, prom and different things that senior year kiddos do, and ultimately decided after a few weeks that it wasn't quite for her, and that she really did appreciate the freedom that homeschooling and non-traditional education provides. And like I said, she's incredibly smart, she's driven, um, and had already taken her the year before had already done some classes at our local community college, um, and just really kind of decided she liked the pace of that, she liked the challenge of that, and has decided to come home. And so she is taking some classes at our local community college, psychology 101, actually, because she is interested in mental health, and um, and then is also finishing up the last credit she needs for high school and will likely graduate a semester early in December. So she's had like, you know, and that's how we are with our kids. So they um we kind of have talked about, you know, every year can be different, it can look different for each kid. Um, that is definitely different when you have twins, so um, where they're the same age, but they definitely are developmentally at a different stage, um, and even academically at different stages.
Dr Olivia:So um, so in any event, so you vary their educational plan based on what what they need. That's that's that's and and you take full responsibility for that and ownership of that with the help of um resources that you have to to implement. Yeah.
Cassie Olgun:And at like at my my oldest daughter's age now, I mean, I don't I wouldn't even necessarily say I'm like homeschooling her anymore. I don't teach her anymore. You know, I'm more of a facilitator where we're signing the paperwork she needs to have signed so she can enroll at the junior college and we're helping pick classes and you know, based upon what her long-term plan are, those types of things we're doing, but I'm not actually teaching her, you know, at this point. And we're using, you know, we've always used things like um online classes through things like outschool, where we're picking whether it's like a full academic course. My kids have done like math on outschool where they're taking an academic course that is meeting a couple times a week. Um, outschool just has such a plethora of live classes with really dedicated and creative teachers who teach things outside of the box if necessary, which can be incredibly helpful for neurodivergent kiddos, especially. We've also used Outschool for tutoring. So maybe we need some support in an area where they need some one-on-one action. We've done that. And then just the enrichment piece of um being able to take things like coding or um my daughters, my daughter's taking singing lessons right now, you know, things like that where you can really dive deep into a more um a more enrichment-based, interest-based topic, which I find really helpful because education should be fun, right? But then I also can't teach everything. I don't know how to code. So if you want to learn coding, you're not learning it from me.
Dr Olivia:Um, you know, well, and also, you know, those things are sometimes forgotten in in mainstream schools, both in the US and the UK. You know, like my daughter's now got gone up to year nine in the UK and they don't have performing arts anymore, you know, and that's her passion. So it's hugely, you know what I mean? So there isn't those opportunities. Whereas it sounds like with Outspan, you have more, you have more ability to pick things that are of interest to you, while I imagine you also keep the core kind of subjects as well, it sounds like with homeschooling.
Cassie Olgun:Yeah, so I mean, out school is one of those opportunities where can you do every single subject and all the things you need on out school? Could you essentially treat out school like a school and do everything there? Yes. And I know people who do. Um, so there is that opportunity. Could you also treat it like where you're cherry-picking the things that you need andor want? Yes. And that's kind of how our family has traditionally used it. So they have done things like um my my neurotypical daughter is a huge animal lover. Um, like we have to rescue spiders from my house and set them free outside because she doesn't want us to kill them. Um so, you know, loves living creatures and animals. So she has taken a series of classes on out school called Intern Introduction to Veterinary Science. And um she took one that was six or seven weeks that was uh like domestic animals, so dogs and cats. And then she did another one with the same educator who teaches more farm-style animals, so the larger, you know, cows, horses, those types of things. Um, and and the teacher who teaches it is a veterinarian. So she's learning firsthand from a person who's actually practicing this in their daily life, who brings animals onto the screen and they'll talk about it and they'll do scenarios where, you know, okay, these are the symptoms of this dog. What do we think is wrong with it? Um, and so she's done some really amazing. Right. And so she's and she took that class when she was 10 or 11. So I mean, she she's and she's done other classes where she just they're focusing on like cheetahs or penguins, or just for a single class where you're kind of deep diving a little bit into a specific animal. Um, so the ability to explore your interests on out school is high. And it's um just really awesome, especially as they got they've gotten older, where I can pick classes with them. So they're a part of that decision-making process, which I think is important for any kid, whether they're traditionally schooled or homeschooled, is to kind of have a voice in terms of their education and what um their interest, interest-based learning is so important, right? Because if we find the thing that we're passionate about and the thing we really want to learn, then it makes learning and education fun versus always being told, well, you have to do this. And now there's going to be plenty of that. My neurotypic, my neurodiverse daughter, for a couple years would tell you we're out of this stage, thankfully. But for a couple years would tell you math is pointless. Math has no place in the world. You don't need math. Nobody needs math. Math sucks. Math is stupid. And, you know, so we kind of had the conversation over and over well, will you ever be doing advanced calculus? Probably not. That's okay. But we do need to know how to tell time and how to keep a budget and how to add. And, you know, there's there are some certain things we need to to know that involve numbers. Um, and she's definitely turned uh turned her viewpoint on math around. But um but in any event, but that was a non-negotiable that she had to learn it. Yes, it was a non-negotiable. So there are like non-negotiables are like learning how to read, right? Like, because if you can read, you can learn anything. So um, so that was another non-negotiable. But in terms of, you know, I think of my, I was traditionally schooled, so I think of my traditional education, and I don't remember a good chunk of what I learned in school in terms of like, and I love history, right? I'm I I would do history and English for the rest of my life and be totally fine and never touch math either. Um I love history, but I don't couldn't tell you like all the dates of the battles of, you know, World War II. You know, like I I couldn't tell you all, and I could tell you a lot of things about World War II, but I couldn't tell you a bunch of those like facts. And so I think about the stuff that I learned in traditional education where I had to just like recite and regurgitate facts that are are kind of gone. Um, but I have things that I'm very interested in that I still will, I mean, I give me an hour in a Wikipedia article and I can deep dive into all kinds of stuff. Um, that rabbit trail is real. But in any event, um, yeah, I we like Out School has classes like teaching math through Minecraft or, you know, doing a book club where you're reading a book and also doing some creative writing in that, you know, in that well realm of a book that maybe you're really interested in. Um teaching, you know, science through different opportunities that have to do with stories or even TV shows. We have teachers who've created escape rooms that are like virtual escape rooms, but they are topics like the Civil War or World War I. And so you're learning a piece, like you, you know, you're not gonna master necessarily all the things about the Civil War in a 45-minute escape room, but you're gonna learn some things and you're gonna have fun while doing it. And it might actually stick in a different way than if you were just being lectured to. Um doubt, no doubt, you know.
unknown:Right.
Dr Olivia:And want to go back and do it again or do something similar, you know?
Cassie Olgun:Right. And we have plenty of fun stuff too, like escape rooms that have to do with, you know, stranger things or different popular TV shows. So there's tons of um just straight enrichment fun stuff as well. But in any event, I mean, uh Outschool provides that opportunity for kids to really have this interest based learning that they maybe wouldn't have otherwise in academic topics, but also enrichment topics. And and we've used other tools over the years as well. We've done other online things um with apps and different curriculums. We've diff we've used different math curriculums, for instance, that are video based. Where I'm not actually the one teaching. I'm just kind of reinforcing and reviewing work and things. So the ability to kind of cater and customize how you're learning and the education that you're providing is really easy, especially now with like, you know, the internet and social media and tons of people out there talking about it and helping with resources.
Dr Olivia:So how does how does like a, you know, for someone who who hasn't homeschooled and and and you know, the only time I have was during COVID. And let me tell you, they are not fond memories. Um and I don't think that's called homeschooling. I don't know what that was called, but it was I wish I didn't remember it. Um I realized I could never be a teacher during that period of time. But um, you know, what you know, do you wake up, do they get dressed, do they come and sit at their desks at nine o'clock in the morning? I mean, how does homeschooling work and does it differ from family to family? Like, um, is it like you know, your nine to three school? How does it work?
Cassie Olgun:It can, so yes, it differs. I mean, I that's the easiest answer. Is the is the different for you, I guess. Answer is it differs. So um different, you know, there's different philosophies for homeschooling. So if you when you start kind of diving into the homeschool world, you'll you'll hear terms like unschooling.
Dr Olivia:I just, you know, I actually did a podcast on unschooling because I thought these are the two topics that I don't really understand. It's unschooling and homeschooling. And it's really nice because you've both given a really clear picture. And I'm gonna put these two episodes next to each other because unschooling is very different to homeschooling. Um, and it's it's interesting to understand that kind of differentiation, whereas unschooling is almost like self-directed learning, and the kid, you know, you you uh it's more of a hands-off approach, but but inspiring and making those possible, you know, potential there for the children to learn. Whereas homeschooling to me seems a little bit more structured and a little bit more like school. But I want to learn more because this is my podcast with a homeschooling expert here.
Cassie Olgun:So um, but um yeah, I mean, I think I think it's almost we've been talking a lot in different education circles about how we really actually almost need to call it stop calling it homeschooling. Because like unschooling in many circles fits under the umbrella of homeschooling. But it's almost like we need to say it's like alternative schooling, right? It's alternative to the traditional mainstream because because there are so many opportunities, unschooling, there is there's micro schools, there's online private schools, there's just so many different things that are happening at home now that are not in the traditional setting that aren't necessarily that traditional parent or caregiver is teaching the kid, which is kind of that traditional homeschooling um mindset. So, in a more traditional homeschooling setting, it still does look different for everybody, but um, and it can look different at different ages and different seasons for each family as well. So yeah, some families do a little bit more what you would call like school at home, where they even, I mean, I've even seen these beautiful kind of like classrooms in people's homes where they're dedicating an entire room as their school room, and they may even have desks or oftentimes like a big table where they're all sitting together and doing, and they might even have like a whiteboard or a chalkboard or something on the board where they're having those kind of traditional school things in their day. But yeah, so in some cases, you are, you know, kind of keeping that traditional wake up at a specific time, you're starting school at a specific time, you maybe have like a lunch hour or half hour or whatever. Um, I will note that for most homeschoolers, especially at a young age, you're not school, you know, you don't need to school from like, I don't know what a day in in the UK is like for what time you guys typically start school, but here it's like around eight o'clock in the morning, right? So around eight o'clock in the morning to 2.15, 3 o'clock in the afternoon, you don't need that entire time when they're nine, 10 years old. Um, because there's a lot of um, you know, when a teacher is teaching 30 kids, there's a lot of time that is wasted because of the transitional periods to when you're transitioning kids from, you know, one activity to another. It just is. It's not, you know, it's not of anyone's fault, it's not bad, it just is what it is when you're wrangling 30 kiddos. Um, or there's 30 kids with 30 different learning needs, and the teacher is having to kind of teach things differently or help different kids one-on-one, and so that takes longer. In a homeschool setting, typically families are getting through their school day a lot faster. Um, there's more efficiency there. So um, a lot of kids, like we were usually done with school by lunchtime when they were young. Um, and then the rest of the day is, you know, enrichment or play or whatever. Um, and and then other things can look different for you. So for us for years, I mean, obviously COVID messed this up for a little while, but for years prior to COVID, um, and then again we picked it up later after COVID, we would go to an enrichment center once or twice a week. So we're getting up, we're getting out of the house, we're packing a lunch, we're, you know, getting ourselves ready to be out of the house for the entire day, and we're going to an enrichment center that is, you know, you can be there for an hour, you can be there for the entire day. But it's almost like that like high school level class where you're moving from classroom to classroom to classroom with different teachers. And they can take academic courses there. My kids did. They like one semester or one school year, they did physical science. So their science was completely taken care of at the enrichment center because they did it a couple of times a week. They had homework, but then they were also doing things like survival skills or sewing or theater, like your daughter is into theater, things like that, um, where they could dive into some enrichment topics in person with other kiddos who are homeschooled. So um, so we were doing that, you know, about two days a week. It was part of our rhythm. And then the other days kind of being at home. One of the misconceptions, too, about homeschooling is that we're, you know, you're home all the time, especially when my kids were little. Um, we were at perk days multiple days a week. We would go to museums or, you know, I love I am lucky to live in a large city. So we have a zoo, we have aquariums, we have things like that where um we've we're we're by the ocean, so we could go to the beach and do tide pools and and things um with friends. But that was a part of our our homeschool because really, you know, the world is, which is a philosophy of unschooling too. Like the world is a classroom, right? Um, so but within that kind of umbrella of alternative schooling, homeschooling is are things like unschooling. World schooling is another thing, and that's really what's world schooling?
Dr Olivia:I have no idea.
Cassie Olgun:So world schooling is where families, and they even link up with other world schooling families, and they you're really traveling. So you're you're schooling as you travel. Um, so in a lot of cases, um, there's actually an educator on out school who I've done some different projects with who is a world schooler, and he and his family have, you know, a motorhome and they travel from city to city in the United States, and they've even gone abroad at different points and stayed in different, you know, different places. They don't take their motorhome with them when they go abroad, but um they go and stay in different places and um and experience different cultures and different food and different opportunities to go to museums and different things outside of where they like they live permanently and will school kind of on the road.
Dr Olivia:Um do they stick to the curriculum as well while doing that?
Cassie Olgun:Or um they could be not necessarily okay. Um so they could they could be doing a curriculum where um they have like a history curriculum, for instance, and they're doing that history curriculum as you go and wherever they live, um, or a math curriculum. But they could also just be using the things that they're experiencing as their history curriculum and saying, hey, this is gonna be our social studies. We're going to travel, um, you know, we're gonna travel the east coast of the United States and we're gonna do American history and talk about the colonies and the Revolutionary War and all the stuff, and and visit all these sites and do all this stuff, and that is going to be our history. Um, a lot of homeschool families are really good at kind of piecemealing their own curriculums together.
Dr Olivia:Um then would you would you weave into that like maths and English and stuff like that, or is that separate, or is does it all come together?
Cassie Olgun:It both, it could be either or. Um so you could have a completely separate like math curriculum. Um, you could kind of weave it some of that stuff into it. Um, but um, but yeah, the world schooling philosophy is kind of again that the cla the world is your classroom. Um we're gonna learn as we go, we're gonna write about things that we're seeing, we're gonna learn maybe even a different language or touch on a different language and learn all of these things as we are traveling. So yeah, I mean, homeschooling can look very different for different families. It can be that kind of more traditional school at home, um, which, you know, we found, we found at at Out School, we found as we were talking to users through COVID and then post-COVID that a lot of like post-pandemic homeschoolers who kind of got a touch of that own at-home feeling maybe had a different experience than you did and really did enjoy the at-home thing, um, found that it was the freedom was nice, right? Like found that the the ability to take a vacation when everyone else is back in school and things maybe cost a little bit less or things aren't as crowded, um, is really nice. And so they found that there were aspects of homeschooling and non-traditional education that they enjoyed and decided to stick with it. We found that um there was a larger contingent of those folks who were really trying to recreate school at home, really kind of do that more, you know, that more like eight to three kind of setup. Um I find in my personal experience that a lot of newer homeschoolers who um are kind of getting into it, maybe they didn't really realize they wanted to homeschool. And it's something about, you know, maybe there was bullying at school or something else that maybe pulled them from the traditional model. I find that those folks tend to want to recreate school at home more often than not. Um, but that's the thing about homeschooling alternative education is it really truly looks different for every family. Um, the curricul, not just even the curriculums you choose, but how you do it, the things you choose to do. Um, I'm a huge advocate of making sure that we are um not telling anyone there's only like one way to do it, right? The entire point is that your choice in education, you're wanting to choose the education that works best for your kiddo. I even know families where one kid is in traditional school and one kid is at home. And and that switches in different seasons. So um, you know, really figuring out what works for each kid. And like the my twins are a great example. We're looking at um our local school district has, I think, as many school districts across the country are realizing post-COVID, um, that, you know, online work learning didn't work for everybody, but for some people it really did. There were kids who thrived in that. And um, they, you know, our local school high school district has kept their online program for high schoolers where high schoolers can now do all of their schooling online and from a home from a home setting. And it's really taking off. They've they've they even have like their own prom now and things, um, which is really cool to see. Um, and they have just this school year have started a new program that is through our local community college, where they have buildings, they like portable buildings, kind of. I think there's three or four of them, um, on the community college's campus. And you're still a student of the high school district, but you are dual enrolling at the junior college at the same time. And these kids, if especially if they start in ninth grade, um, these kids can graduate from high school with an associate's degree from the community college. Um, and in the state of California at least, um, you can take up to 11 units of community college credit as a high school student for free. So it's free college education. Yeah.
Dr Olivia:Um and then decreases your college costs later because you've already you're jumping through a year or two years of of college before you start paying those bills.
Cassie Olgun:Exactly. So, um, and it's on their campus. They're in some cases being taught by the professors who teach at the college. Um, it's a really, really cool program. And we are looking at that for my my neurotypical daughter, the twin, um, for next year. She's in eighth grade this year, so it's too soon to start. Um, but we are looking at that potentially for her for her high school years as something that um could be a great opportunity for her and that we feel like she can handle. Um, her neurodiverse sister, her twin, we don't we're not sure if that's going to be the thing for her. Um, I'm not ruling it out, but I'm also not sure if it will be um be something that it might be a little too much for her. Um so in any event, um, I think that is go ahead.
Dr Olivia:What you're saying to me is is is so great, is is and you know, your example of all of your children is fantastic because what you're really saying is it gives you the flexibility to meet the needs of your child where they're at, provide the opportunities of where they're at, give them that kind of autonomy, but you're also doing it with a kind of a you know, an oversight of of uh of the system too and the curriculum. So it is different than unschooling, but there are elements that are the same, and there's this autonomy and this kind of personalized learning, which I think goes so well with neurotypical and neurodiverse kids in terms of them being able to thrive um in a setting.
Cassie Olgun:Yeah, yeah, and I think that's that's part of the beauty of it, is I think wanting so I loved school. I loved school traditionally, and I was traditionally schooled. I loved my mom as a retired teacher. I loved school. I mean, I joke, but also seriously, my sixth grade teacher was at my wedding because I adored her. I still adore her. Um, you know, she's a lovely she she helped me. I mean, I still remember things sixth grade, you're what, like 11, 12, like I um 10 or 11. I still remember things I did in her class, and I'm in well, I'm in my 40s now, so it's been a bit. Um, and you know, and I um she also wasn't the only teacher at my wedding. So um, because I was that kind of nerd who loved school. And um, and so you know, I think I wanted, I also saw that there were things even then that didn't make sense to me about the traditional setting. Um, things I was forced to do just because someone said this is what you have to do. I hate standardized testing. I think that um I think it can be a helpful tool. Um, but I think defining kids by how well they can take a test is just not, you know, I was on, I was actually on another podcast recently where the host who was neurodiverse herself was talking about how she said she had this line that just really stuck with me where she said, I always knew there were kids that were better than me because they did better on the test than I did. And I said, but they weren't better than you. You know, who's defining what better is? And how horrible that a test, a standardized test that means nothing now as an adult and defines nothing about your success as an adult made you feel less than when you were in school because you didn't do as well as the kid in the study. And I was that kid who did really well on the majority of standardized tests, but I needed a math tutor to help me do math. And then the commentary kind of being, well, you did really well, like you were testing really high in these standardized tests. How come you're struggling in practice? Because I'm a really good test taker. I'm really good at the process of elimination and guessing and taking tests, but I don't know that I it defined it. I actually knew, you know, and so it didn't define my knowledge base. So that always kind of bothered me in school that um we were forced to take these tests that I didn't feel like, and you know, I understand they need benchmarks, they need to have outcomes and things, but I just always felt like there had to be a better way. What that better way is, I'm not totally sure, but um there had to be a better way to define kids and their success. And um, and so you know, I look at people like my sister who had some learning disabilities and and in many cases was made to feel like she wasn't smart and she was and she's brilliant and she's she's much more creative than I am in a lot of ways. And you know, and we are very different people, but she is empathetic and wonderful and is actually coincidentally enough, works at our community college, and um, you know, is um is very successful, but once upon a time was kind of being told, you're not going to be successful, you're not, you know, as smart as other people because you're not performing the same way. I got straight A's and did all the things. She did not, but it doesn't now look at us, you know, as adults. I wouldn't say either one of us is more successful than the other one. Um, and we have very different strengths and weaknesses. And so um I think I kind of started to see that with um and with the advent too of when I was when I was in school, when we were in school, you know, not everything was done on devices. Now everything is device, everyone's homework is turned in on an iPad or a computer, or everyone's you know, you're you don't even have actual textbooks in many cases anymore. They're all online. Um and you know, I had to handwrite essays and different things at points, and that's not what's happening anymore. They are typing it into a word processor and turning it in online. Um, and I mean, all of that's real world skills they need because that's how the world is working. But um, but I think that I started to see that with um with my neurodiverse daughter when she was young, and I started to see my oldest one who is now in kindergarten, right? And having to take tests kind of and do different things where the a computer is involved. And I was thinking about well, what's gonna happen with this kiddo who has some has some fine and gross motor delays. Is she gonna be able to manage a mouse and a computer and the things that she needs to manage in a timely fashion when she's taking a you know a standardized test down the road? Um, and so those were some of the things I was worried and concerned about in a traditional setting was how we're defining success. I think we just need to redefine success, period, across the board. Not everybody needs to go to college. That's okay. Um, college is important, and I went to college and loved it. And I want certain people to have gone to college. I want my doctors to have secondary education. I want, you know, I want the person who's building my house to have knowledge about what they're doing so it doesn't fall on my head. Um, but I I don't think that everybody needs to go to college. And um I have some very successful friends who, I mean, I have a friend who is in the entertainment business, did not go to a day of college, and has won an Emmy, has, you know, is a wonderful, you know, he's a behind-the-scenes person and he's not on TV or anything, but um, but is incredibly successful and yet didn't go to college a lick in his life. And, you know, um I think that we need to redefine what success looks like, what it what it is. Um, I think that if you find your passion, if you find the thing that you're interested in, that that is that success, right? And um, and then finding the the job that can help you get there. Um, and I think that that interest-based learning component, whether it's from an on-schooling perspective or just a more traditional um homeschooling perspective, where we're really allowing our kids to explore their education in a way that is sometimes lost in a traditional setting, um, is really important. So um, so and I think that that is helpful too for neurodiverse kids who don't always learn the same way. And in a traditional setting, you can't teach a classroom of 25, 30 kids 30 different ways. You just can't, like, right? Teachers' hands are tied. And teachers are fabulous, and they're doing what they can do with sometimes some limitations, and it seems like it's becoming even more difficult for teachers. All my teacher friends who I know say it's just getting harder and harder for a variety of reasons. Um, but when you have a non-traditional setting, you know, typically, like in an online uh private school, typically class sizes are, you know, 10 to 15 kids. So you're not having that 25, 30 kids in a classroom situation. Um, there's so many project-based schools out there now where instead of defining there's like an online school, online private school, where they actually don't give grades. They have a mastery-based approach where you're trying to master topics versus saying, hey, and and every kid gets to take that mastery-based um path at a different rate. So somebody might master to master a topic in three months, and someone might take nine months to do it. And I think that's um part of the alternative education movement. It's just kind of redefining, um redefining how how kids learn and the speed at which they learn. And never has been that been more evident than with twins, right? They're the same age. They, I mean, give give it a minute. They I had a C-section, so they came out about a minute apart. Um, but they're basically the same age. They had the same in utero experience because, you know, they're in there together. So if we're gonna argue about like what what happened to them when they were in utero and whatever, it was the same. Um, they pretty much had the same, especially the first years, they were getting, you know, having the same food, the same experiences, the same environmental factors, etc., um, for all of those years. And and yet they are so different, not just in personality, but in the way that they learn. And like you hit at the beginning, one is neurotypical and one is neurodivergent. And we didn't, you know, we didn't get to kind of the point in the story where she also also has ADHD. So we are dealing with three different types of neurodivergence, um, with the OCD, the ADHD, and the autism, and um, and how that all overlaps and intermingles and presents, etc. Um, but that the way we are looking at, I mean, not even just their education, but raising them is so different, right? Um, we're starting to enter those teen years where they are they are going through puberty at a different rate. They are hitting milestones differently, and even the maturity factor and the uh the social maturity factor is different. You know, my my neurotypical one it's hard for her because she'll see things where her her propensity, which I don't blame her, can be well, how come she gets like an excuse for this? How come she gets leeway? How come she doesn't have to do as much as I do? How come what is expected of her is different? And um and that's those are valid things, right? Um, that we definitely address in our family. Um, and more recently we've had a situation where we finally were able to have this moment of like, okay, you're getting something your sister's not because you're emotionally and mature, you're ready for it. And you know, it had to do with social media, and it was like, you know, we can trust you on social media in a way that we can't necessarily trust your sister. And so um still very controlled and still very a little bit helicopter parent about it, but um, but but still like getting it at all versus not getting it, um, but yet they're the same age. Yeah and yet, you know, and so there's that um there's that component of you are ready for this thing um because of your social maturity that they are not ready for. So um, so yeah, I mean, I the challenge, but but homeschooling also allows us to tailor in a way that I was gonna say that.
Dr Olivia:I mean, you know, you have because neurodiverse kids tend to take longer to mature, you know, they there's there's a delay in their executive functioning across the board, you know. Yeah, and therefore, by homeschooling, it allows you, like you said, I can I can buy the math book from you know year three, even though she's in year six. It gives you that flexibility, and there's no reason they won't progress. And I I see it in my own daughter, you know what I mean. What I thought was never gonna happen three years ago is now happening. I just expected it three years ago, you know. You know, I had to I had to reset my own internal clock, and and you know, I only have one, so I only have the experience of one. I I mean I'd love to be a fly on the wall in your house, but you know, you have the experience of two, but you have to, you really have to tailor your parenting and your schooling, and that would be very difficult if they were both in the same classroom together at a mainstream school, they wouldn't come out of it the same way. And that's basically what we're expecting all of our children of a certain age to go into a school.
Cassie Olgun:Yeah, yeah.
Dr Olivia:And learn.
Cassie Olgun:And you know, none of my kids could read at grade level um until, you know, quote unquote grade level until about sixth grade. Because I just didn't really push it. Um, and I I'm a reader, I'm a reader. I'm a I've read like, you know, 70 plus books this year already, and I'm a big reader. And um, and my mom is a big reader, and so I wanted my kids to hopefully enjoy reading and just not pushing them. And I was seeing the struggle when they were young, trying to get them to learn how to read, and it was a fight and it was a battle, and I just, you know, it was more about people might look at it and say, Oh, well, it was, you know, you just didn't want to push through the heart. I'm like, no, I just really didn't want to make them hate something that I wanted them to love. And so, you know, fast forward where my kids are all reading, they're all readers to different levels. And, you know, my my neurotypical twin got into reading through graphic novels. Um, and so she still can devour a graphic novel, but she also reads chapter books and loves to read now. My oldest is a reader and loves to like, and this isn't even something I taught her because I don't do this. She loves to read and annotate and take notes and highlight and um you know, and um, and we she wants her own copies of books versus like checking them out from the library because she likes to write in them and underline things and different stuff that um is so fun that she does, and she's really into poetry and things like that. Um, but it's you know, so I taking that at their own their own pace really was helpful, and just for the neurodiverse child, but for all of them to let them kind of get where they needed to go and then see them flourish. And so yeah, I mean it's been a challenge, but it's also a lot of fun and it's very fascinating to watch.
Dr Olivia:Um, you've given us a lot of food for thought, I think, today, and you've really clarified and kind of inspired, I think, myself and listeners. Are there three like top tips you would give to some parents who are maybe considering homeschooling and they're on that precipice of saying, should I or shouldn't I?
Cassie Olgun:Yeah, I mean, I would say decision paralysis is a real thing. There's so much information out there, as I'm sure you're learning as you're doing these podcasts. Um, like give yourself some space um to make decisions. Don't be afraid to make a decision on a curriculum or a homeschooling approach and realizing it doesn't work, it's okay. Like it's okay for, especially if you're starting young. Like you're not gonna mess anything up by choosing a math curriculum that didn't work and then you realized you needed to switch to something different. Um, so don't be afraid to like make a mistake. I would say in that traditional that a decision paralysis, like at a certain point, just make a decision and start. Um, just start. And then if that mistake happens and you realize you picked the wrong philosophy or you picked the wrong curriculum for your kid or your family, switch. Um, don't be afraid to do that. My second big um uh suggestion would be to find like support. Find a group of people who can who are veteran homeschoolers who can answer questions, who can suggest curriculums. I mean, with with Facebook and social media and all the things, there's a billion homeschool groups out there. And there are homeschool groups that are focused on even different philosophies. There are unschooling groups, there are, you know, Charlotte Mason, there are all kinds of different groups where you can find and kind of dabble your toes in. Um so find that support system of other families who are doing this too, that you can ride this journey with you. Um, and then I think my last one would be don't be afraid to outsource the things that are maybe harder, especially as they age, right? Like I don't teach math past sixth grade. It's just not anything I do. My husband either teaches it or we have found things like outschool. So don't be afraid to say, hey, this topic I'm not very passionate about. I want my kid to be taught by somebody who's passionate. Yeah, you know, or I don't know, I can't teach German. So, you know, let's find a German teacher or something. Um, so don't be afraid to outsource and use tools like outschool or other online curriculums that teach things, or even people in your community. You know, there's there's piano teachers and different people in different people's communities that you can source. I've even swapped with other homeschool parents where I will teach a subject and they will teach a subject, and we're swapping our kids and kind of doing that kind of a thing. So be creative, be outside of the box. Don't feel like you have to do it all. There are resources that can help and support you along the way that you can help and outsource to online opportunities or in-person opportunities.
Dr Olivia:Those are three great tips to take away for for everybody, because I think people probably put a lot of pressure on themselves. So that's a great, great. Well, thank you so much, Cassie, for your time today and sharing your story of your lovely daughters. And um, we'll include, you know, the the how people can get in touch with out school as well as a resource that's uh open to anyone. It's uh it's used around the globe, even though you're you're American and from California, where I used to reside as well. It's uh not just for the US curriculum, it's it's for it's it's can be an addition to anyone's curriculum. Globally. So I think that's yes, a wonderful resource. And yeah, just a big thank you.
Cassie Olgun:Absolutely. Thank you for having me. And we do we absolutely plug that we have a lot of teachers in the UK. So our educators who are there who are teaching standards from the UK. And um, my daughter even takes a class every Friday with an educator who's in the in the United Kingdom. And I love hearing her accent for the computer every Friday for an hour. So um I will definitely give you some more information on that. And thank you so much for having me. This has been a joy. I know we could have probably talked for another two hours.
Dr Olivia:That'd be absolutely great. Thank you. Thank you for listening, Stemparent can try. You'll find expert guidance, real conversations, group coaching, and a space where you can finally exhale, surrounded by Moms Who Get It. You can join by going to www.sendparenting.com backslash join or through the link in the show notes.