SEND Parenting Podcast

EP 145: Finding Their Tribe

• Dr. Olivia Kessel

Share episode

Many neurodivergent children struggle to make and keep friends — not because they do not care, but because they experience the world differently. In this episode, Dr Olivia speaks with Kirsten, founder of Uncommon, a unique online community that helps neurodiverse children build friendships and confidence through shared interests like gaming, art, and creativity.

Kirsten shares her personal journey to an autism diagnosis, why traditional social spaces often fail neurodivergent kids, and how Uncommon’s mentoring model is transforming lives. Together, they explore what true belonging means — and how finding your tribe can change everything.

Whether your child is shy, anxious, or struggling to connect, this episode will give you hope, practical insights, and a new perspective on social growth for neurodiverse children.

🌐 Learn more about Uncommon  

💬 Connect with Us

🌱 Join our SEND Parenting Private WhatsApp Community — a safe space to share, learn, and feel supported by parents who truly understand.

⚡ Ready to go deeper?
Become part of the ADHD Warrior Mum’s Recharge Station — your space for group coaching, expert guidance, real connection, and the calm you deserve.

Dr Olivia:

Welcome to the Send Parenting Podcast. I'm your neurodiverse host, Dr. Olivia Kessel, and more importantly, I'm mother to my wonderfully neurodivergent daughter, Alexandra, who really inspired this podcast. As a veteran in navigating the world of neurodiversity in a UK education system, I've uncovered a wealth of misinformation, alongside many answers and solutions that were never taught to me in medical school or in any of the parenting handbooks. Each week on this podcast, I will be bringing the experts to your ears to empower you on your parenting crusade. If you're looking for a safe space to connect with other parents navigating their neurodiverse journey, our private WhatsApp community offers support, insights, and real conversations with like-minded parents who truly understand. Join the conversation today. You can find the link in the show notes. In today's episode, we're talking about something so many parents, including myself, worry about, and that is our children's confidence and their friendships. Whether your child is eight or sixteen, navigating social life can be especially tough when they're neurodivergent. I'm joined today by Kirsten, founder of Uncommon Minds. Diagnosed herself as neurodivergent, Kirsten knows firsthand the struggles of feeling different. She created Uncommon to give children a safe, supportive space to connect with peers, build friendships, and grow in confidence. In our conversation today, we'll explore why social life can be so challenging and how Uncommon helps kids connect through shared interests like gaming or drawing, and then the transformation that can happen when children finally find their tribe. So welcome, Kirsten. It's such a pleasure to have you on the Send Parenting podcast. Because today we're going to dive into social struggles, which I know so many of our neurodivergent children face. I know from my daughter Alexandra's experience that so many of the challenges that she has faced socially over the years have really knocked her confidence and escalated kind of her anxiety levels. But it's also left me feeling super powerless because I'm not in the playground with her and I'm not able to help her navigate this. And that's why I'm really excited and looking forward to talking to you today and about how Uncommon can offer a really safe and supportive place where children can build friendships and also get a true sense of belonging. So I'm really excited. But I wanted to start with your story and um kind of take us through your journey and how you got diagnosed as a teenager. It's kind of a quite an unusual story, if I do say so.

Kirsten:

It is, yeah. So I am pretty unusual for uh for my age, in my 40s, um, in that I was uh got a diagnosis in my late teens. And not because of other people kind of picking up stuff that was going on with me, but actually because I think I just struggled so much socially in high school, and then sort of all of the kind of mental health issues that sort of fell out of that and kind of moved forward into university, just caused me to then reflect a lot and think, well, maybe there is something that's different about me. And so I actually went off to find one of the few organizations there that specialized in female presentations of autism and yeah, and went spent time with their diagnostic team.

Dr Olivia:

So I think in And you did that as a teenager, didn't you? You did that as a teenager, that wasn't in university, that was was that as a teenager or was it in university that you did that?

Kirsten:

It was in university, so it was in my late teens. So it was once I kind of formally formally stepped away from home. Um yeah, and I think I mean at the time in the 90s that was a pretty strange thing to do. Uh it was still termed Aspersia syndrome, sort of seen as in some ways something that was kind of apart from autism, but I think even like thinking it through at the time, you know, it felt very much like a spectrum, you know, as more as we think of it now as a sort of sliding scale of a range of differences that manifest. And I think it was hugely validating for people to say, yes, you know, these differences that you notice, they are real. You know, there's a reason why my younger sister's five years younger than me, and at times I'd be struggling with things socially, and I'd be really sad, I'd be upset, and I'd kind of ask her questions like, why doesn't X or Y happen? And she would just have the answers. And she was five years younger. So, you know, when I was doing this in my kind of early to mid-teens when she was, you know, 10, 11, 12, you know, it's quite something to have someone that much younger than you just literally know kind of relatively instinctively like how to navigate these things. And for me, it was just utterly baffling. Like nothing occurred to me all that naturally. Um and so it definitely helped getting a diagnosis. I think the other thing that really helped, probably more, was the fact that I was always quite independent. I enjoyed roaming around, and from a relatively young age, it just taken up on any kind of opportunity that I could get to go away on trips. So I have family over in Germany and I would spend summers there. I started traveling at a really young age independently, I started working overseas as well, so I taught um English in Russia and then in Ecuador. And I think what was really clear to me was like my differences were perceived and worked differently in different spaces and different cultures. And so I think now you know we we would think of that as the kind of social model of disability, which is to say that our difference in ability in a certain space is defined much more by the society that we live in than necessarily like how our brains function, how we work. Um but yeah, it was just interesting to see that kind of being more direct in Germany worked okay. Or kind of getting really, really over-enthusiastic about stuff in Latin America was just perceived as normal, you know, to get super excited about like exactly how many cactuses they had in the country, or like to spend hours like talking to someone's mum about you know ecology and ecological diversity, and like the kids my age being like, What are you what are you on about with my mum? This is just kind of in some ways really weird, but I think it was much more understandable to them because of like the level of enthusiasm and you know the mums being excited and me being excited, and that kind of excitement and passion and about like being really into something was just sort of more more normal.

Dr Olivia:

Normal. Yeah, and it it it then makes you say, well, what is normal? There is no normal, but what an you know super interesting and what a what a interesting experience to to to sift through as you saw yourself in those different environments and not being uncomfortable knowing what to do or being accepted for who you are.

Kirsten:

Exactly. And I think it's so my my adult years growing up were then a real, I suppose, opposing mix of I've I've you know lived and worked in over 30 countries and you know speak quite a few different languages, and you know, on the one hand, I'd have these amazing experiences of being in new places and like finding an aspect of me that like really fit in that place that was, you know, maybe seen as a bit kind of weird back home. But at the same time, you know, there wasn't awareness of neurodiversity. I wasn't going around to people saying, hey, this is me because of because I'm autistic, because these are autistic traits. And I was still having to, in the more formal professional settings, effectively mask my traits, try and kind of compensate for things that I just naturally found difficult, and you know, miss out on some of the kind of natural career steps that maybe came easily to other people because you know I came across as too direct, and people might be worried that I might mishandle things, or um, just simply kind of really not understanding how I did things, which might be in a different way to what other people done, even though I would still get stuff done. I think at times there's a sense of just being perceived as because you do things differently, people are can be concerned or worried about you in the professional space. So I think there's this very strange experience of on the one hand having these different traits being a real asset, like moving around the world and making it so much easier for me in some ways to relate to others in different places, really get excited and move around and adapt. Um, yeah, whilst on the other hand, sort of still having these struggles of you know working in kind of a neurotypical working environment, trying to conform with uh the norms of that. And so I uh worked in kind of social impact consulting for 20 years, um, helping regenerate underprivileged communities and then overseas, helping build uh large pieces of infrastructure in emerging economies and then in Africa, and then focusing on uh disability inclusion in emerging economies. And it was an amazing experience, but I think I just got to the point where I really wanted to be able to do something that was super meaningful for me. And so when I saw that an accelerator programme were focusing on youth mental health, I thought, you know, maybe, maybe this is the time. So it was just after uh just after COVID, um, just after I'd uh had my daughter, I was very much in that parent mindset of, you know, I I have a very neurodiverse family, it's neurodiversity is genetic, like I don't know what my family will need. Um, looking around and thinking, great, on the one hand, there's always kind of positive narrative about people kind of coming out, a lot of great awareness, this is fantastic, and me kind of thinking, wow, there's you know, the tide is changing, this is this is perfect, this is great. And at the same time, looking out there as a new parent and seeing lots of parents going, I can't find anything, I'm on wait lists, there's nothing for us, people don't understand us. You know, I'm having to choose between can I afford £100 an hour for a clinician to help tell me what's going on happening in my kid's brain, um, or actually, my kid is struggling to attend school, they can't find you know the right fit and a space that works for them. And I think overwhelmingly, parents just wanting the best for their kids, but just really struggling to find things out there, and so that was the birth of Uncommon. So we are now three and a bit years old. Um, we run uh courses, clubs, and uh online community and mentoring for young people aged eight to eighteen. Um, but we started off very much with a focus on mental health and well-being because the big challenge that I saw parents talking about initially was my kid is so anxious, they're not leaving the house, they're finding it hard to make friends, they're really retreating. And when you look at the statistics around mental health, sort of 80% of the mental health challenges that we experience, we experience before the age of 18. And those then same patterns of mental well-being or poor well-being often then filter through into our adult life. And so, really, if we can help young people either avoid or address or be supported through those challenges, then we know that they're more likely to have uh better life outcomes, they're more likely to bond with their peers, they're more likely to um go on to achieve in education to get jobs and work and so forth. So um, yeah. So we started out really with that focus on mental health and well-being, and yeah, and it just and it just blossomed from there, really.

Dr Olivia:

You know, it's it's it's it's a super important thing to be able to provide um that that space for children to to flourish and to build that self-worth and that self-esteem. Why is it so difficult for neurodiverse children to find, why do they find it so uniquely challenging? And is it because they're outnumbered, um, or is it because, you know, it's interesting, it's an interesting topic. Why, why is it so difficult for them?

Kirsten:

I mean, for a start, you know, we do we do think differently, we do communicate differently, our life priorities are different, our day-to-day priorities are are different. And I think um we also are you know our brains develop at different rates. So things that I now find easier and easy as an adult, and people kind of say, Oh, but you can do that really well. And like, yeah, but age 16, my capacity to do it was more like the age of an eight-year-old. And so, yes, I built the skills over time, but you know, things come at different times and at different phases. So I think in part, and sometimes it is about that you know, we know that we communicate more easily with others who think and act like us because of the sort of the double empathy concept. We understand them, they understand us, and we communicate in a kind of similar style. So when you see kids that are around other kids kind of like them, or that they have a strong affinity with, they've got a strong sense of safety, a strong bond, then those neurodivergent kids may not really necessarily notice their differences so much. You know, they feel safe, they feel secure, they can be themselves, they can communicate in their own way. And their differences aren't really differences, they're they're just a new normal. So I think it's it's really when kids are sort of struggling to try to fit in to a way of being that maybe is really difficult and hard for them, that then what we often see is two things. Sadly, we see othering from other kids and also adults. So we see other kids critiquing maybe the way they think or act, and also adults doing the same, and sadly also trusted adults, be it in school places and other things. And that understandably dints self-esteem. And for kids who maybe weren't really thinking of themselves at all different, you know, it begins things bubbling up in the mind like maybe I am different, what is that thing? Maybe it's a wrong thing, maybe it's a bad thing, when nothing is instinctively wrong or bad about us. Um, and I think the other thing is even, you know, for many kids they're not necessarily experiencing that othering or those negative comments and thoughts, but often kids might start to notice differences or to be trying to do things and then just notice that maybe they, you know, they do understand that they regularly kind of join conversations midway through. They struggle to find a time to say something. There are some kids that come across really as really quiet because they do struggle to like find that moment, hop into conversation, and that's definitely me. That's definitely one of the reasons that I'm often quite quiet. Um, or maybe within friendships, you know, our executive functioning develops more slowly. Um, maybe we don't necessarily remember or think to reach out to friends, to say hi, to ask how they are, which unfortunately then for maybe other kids who find it really easy to remember to do that stuff, and it's instinctive and natural to them, that comes across as maybe the kid not caring. And so there's a combination of things that we're sort of trying to actively do and struggling with, some things that we're kind of missing and not quite getting right inverted commas. And yeah, over time, I think, especially as kids get older, they notice these differences more. Other kids will also notice and critique things more, and that sort of tends to be when kids either try so hard to mask and be a different version of themselves that they wear themselves out and often go into burnout, um you know, or they experience significant bullying, um, or some really, really resilient kids are just like, no, this is me, I'm just gonna be me. And so some some sort of you know kids thrive, they are themselves, they have strong peer groups around them, that all kind of works well. So it's not to say that it is inevitable in any way, and I think that's why although we started at Uncommon as a kind of a mental health um company kind of focusing on helping kids understand their brains, when we ran courses for the kids, their kids would say, Wow, that was so fun, I so enjoyed like meeting other kids like me, hearing other kids say, Oh yeah, I find that difficult, oh yeah, I did that kind of crazy, weird thing that you do that other people think that is a bit odd, but actually I really like it, it's really important to me. And I think just hearing that kind of validation from other kids, and also I think within all of the groups that we have, you'll get those varying levels of confidence. So you will get some really self-confident kids who say, Oh yeah, when that silly kid in the playground says that thing, just ignore them, they're just being ridiculous. And I think having that variety of kind of kids in groups was just a great space to validate people's experiences to say, you're not, you know, you're not weird, different is fine, different is good and exciting, you're not alone. Um and so out of those courses we spun the clubs that we run, which are focused around uh young people's intense interests and things that they like doing and building and making. Um, and I think having those structured spaces where kids can kind of turn up week after week, knowing that they're in a safe space, um, just yeah, it just just makes all the difference really.

Dr Olivia:

And how does that work? So you have your kids coming together for, I don't know, Minecraft or or some other thing that uh, you know, that that they have a common interest with. How how do how does the group is it moderated? Does it, you know, how because I, you know, there I think that's one of the complexities on the playground is you don't have any moderators. And sometimes actually my my daughter goes to an independent school, sometimes you have to call in and ask them to kind of moderate because they there have been there has been so much miscommunication. I think a lot of it is miscommunication sometimes that causes the isolation. Um, so how does it work within the uncommon world to navigate these kind of complexities?

Kirsten:

Absolutely. So everyone that joins uncommon joins either a club or a course. Um, most of our young people join clubs where they're with us kind of once a week or more, some come kind of two, three times a week. And those clubs are run online. Uh, we meet each other in Zoom, and then we basically dive into whatever kind of world or activity we're doing that day. Um, all the clubs are led by neurodivergent club leaders. So these are young adults, and when when we were thinking about who would make the best kind of peer mentors for our young people, we really focused on young neurodivergent adults who have experienced the same challenges that kids are going through right now. And also young adults that effectively grew up with Minecraft, they grew up with the games that these kids are playing. You know, they were there when robots came out, and they, you know, remember getting into game XOY. Uh-huh. Like all the things which when I'm like in Minecraft and I'm like, I fell down that hole again. Can someone remind me how to craft this thing?

Dr Olivia:

Well, the kids really impressed that you play it. Well, I am. It's fun. I'll watch it, but I haven't played it myself. But yeah, so the kid, the the the mentors know what the kids are going through. They've lived it themselves and they actually know what they're really super interested in, and probably are super interested in it themselves as well. So it's almost like a a big brother or big sister or a or a friend actually right there and the mentor.

Kirsten:

Exactly, yes. And when we kind of the the recruitment process that we go through is is quite unusual because it's very sort of active. It's not about sort of asking people questions about their lives. We actually get young people who've applied for jobs into groups and we get them to kind of talk about their lives to each other because, in essence, that's what we encourage the mentors to do with the young people. So they're not there to share their entire life story, but whenever there is a moment of affinity, they're there to share their experiences. And most specifically, we, you know, our team are very much young adults who are very self-aware, very reflective, and also just very good at articulating the feelings and emotions that they went through, but also how they then problem solved themselves. Because one of the big challenges, I think, for parents is you want to support your kid in every way that you can. But at the same time, when it comes to friendships, we know that as kids approach 11 or 12, they really want to get advice from their peers.

Dr Olivia:

And as parents-anyone but you, anyone but you, and you just don't know. You know, your your opinion is no longer valid once they cross that that puberty barrier. At least that's my experience. You know, you're no longer uh, you know, you you were I I used to be known as mummy is always right, to now you don't know anything. I don't want to talk to you. You know what I mean? Like it's a complete game changer. So you, you know, you want to find people that can support your child, and they want that they want that external source of kind of validation from friends and also other people, um, more so than from you.

Kirsten:

Exactly. And I think it's yeah, it just it just feels more validating when you're being validated, both around the experience you had that day and your love of Taylor Swift and that particular song lyric, and this and your latest plushie that you just love so much, and the kind of episode that you're now binge watching on on TV. Like it just it it really, really helps. They get you. Yeah, they get you, and I think you know, our team are all digital natives as well, and you know, it's a term that's kind of easy to use, but they are young people that have genuinely built strong friendships in the virtual world that have then translated over into the real real world and they've taken into adulthood with them, which I think is a really important and viable option for neurodivergent kids because um I just remember one of my teachers always saying to me in high school, I think they kind of, you know, they got me and they kind of looked to me and they sort of said, You will find your people at university. And the reason normally why that is, is just there's a bigger pool of people. Like you're more likely to find the people that you instinctively vibe with, and things like university societies and all these things, having time to deep dive into those specialist interests alongside study, and get really geeky about things that you really love. You know, they're just good spaces to like find those people, and so I think find your tribe. Exactly. To find your tribe, and I think you know, it's tricky when you're a kid, you're not necessarily that mobile, you know, you can't get out and go explore a big city and kind of find, you know, all the people that love your specific thing. It's you know, you don't necessarily have the time or the freedom to do so, it may not be safe to do so. But what we've tried to create is effectively a space where you can find those other people that really love the thing that you love. And those those relationships they do translate over into the real world. So we've had young people then go to conventions together, um, arrange meetups, and um sort of alongside our clubs, what we then have is we have an online community uh where kids can chat in between sessions. Um we're about to open that up that up more so that they can also game together in between sessions because we know that's a real worry for parents. Um, you know, social gaming platforms exist, absolutely, they do, but they are kind of the wild west of social spaces. There is some really some really adult spaces on there, really, really adult spaces that I discovered Roblox has adult spaces.

Dr Olivia:

Oh my gosh. I had no idea. I discovered that a couple weeks ago. Who knew? I mean, you know, I thought Roblox was safe. It's not, you know, you have to, I mean, yeah, so I so it's it is a Wild West. I love how you describe that. And and you can have that social interaction there, which a lot of kids crave, but it's not safe social interaction because you don't know who those people are.

Kirsten:

Exactly. I mean, your kid could quite genuinely be talking to anyone, including, and I think it's it's not necessarily the case that I'm saying the internet is full of predators, but the internet is absolutely definitely still full of um lots of young adult males who will use a lot of aggressive language and act in ways towards other players which are you know are very aggressive, very unkind, the kinds of behaviors that you don't really want your kid picking up on in their impressionable, impressionable teenage years, basically. And that's not necessarily that there's bullying. Yeah, and there is and there is bullying, absolutely, you know, people stealing stuff from each other, people being aggressive or unkind, just like lots of small slights and attention. So I think you know, a lot of families do join us because their kids, you know, want a game, they do want to game socially, but gaming out there in this kind of big, wide open space is really challenging. Yeah. So some come to us who have experienced bullying and things like Roblox and they just and they want a safe space. Others have been keeping their kids kind of very, very safe, very close, it haven't let them into social spaces. But as a result, if their kid is quite socially anxious, if they're maybe struggling to attend school and they're at home a lot, you they have become quite isolated. And so the spaces that we can offer through the clubs, you know, kids have these kind of regular weekly interactions where we get to know them, and then in between, they're in our servers or they're in our chat spaces, and it means that when things happen, the small friendship things happen, we can understand the context, we can help and support. And I think that is where a lot of the kind of longer-term benefits come from for kids because it's not just about like what happens in a weekly club that you turn up to, it's about what happens in those day-to-day friendships. And for many of our kids, I think you know, social challenges show up as understandably huge rejection sensitivity, which sometimes comes out of quite natural anxiety, which is built up through puberty and hormonal changes. So it's not necessarily because something bad has happened, or it can be because they have had negative social experiences. But either way, what it means is they're super sensitive to rejection. You know, that's just their body trying to keep them safe, but it means they are negatively interpreting uh social interactions around them when, and then what we can help do is sort of help them gauge when something is a minor action by another kid that is that is unintended, there's no malice behind it, it's maybe just a normal thing of like, okay, the kid came up and fought you, but that's because there is a fighting component to this game, and you said no, they didn't stop immediately, you said no again, and they stopped. Now doesn't necessarily mean that they are trying to be aggressive towards you. Because we know both the kids, we can judge that a little bit more and kind of say, look, we know Kid B uh sometimes gets really into their gaming, really into their fighting. Or actually maybe they turn off the sound sometimes because they find it too overwhelming. You know, in this instance, like actually they didn't realize they're really sorry, you know, they'd like to come and build something with you. And I think, you know, being able to kind of move past move past these things, and so not all negative social interactions are inherently bad. You know, as as humans say and do things that we don't mean, we don't think things through. Sometimes we're in our own worlds, and you know, we do stuff that has other social implications, but it's not aimed at you.

Dr Olivia:

Um and and and it's getting that understanding. It's almost like you're helping to them and teaching them how to understand how to look at these situations with a different lens, and you have a great Ability to do that knowing both of the children there and being able to interact with them, which I think as a parent, when you're trying to help your kids socially, you have no ability to do that, you know? Um, and school has limited ability. They do, they can watch on the playground, they can do stuff, but there's a limited ability to do that. So it's a a unique, um unique and wonderful thing actually to be able to help children who struggle socially to learn to pick up on social cues and to learn how not all situations that you perceive as bad are bad and how to then navigate to a place where, oh, you're building something together again and that's in the past and you've let it go.

Kirsten:

Yeah, exactly. And I think you know, it works from all sides. So, you know, for the kid that has maybe done this thing that has upset someone else, it's also about learning that, you know, we're not to blame when we don't pick up on something, but we do need to take responsibility because you know, if we've done something that's unintentionally hurt someone, the other person is still hurt. It's not to say we're a bad person, we're unbad person. Um, but we need to take responsibility, you know, check in, see how they are, see if they want any help, just you know, demonstrate that you know, we're aware that we did something, that we're sorry that we it hurt them. And I think this idea of sort of blame versus responsibility is just a really valuable thing to get kind of early on as a neurodivergent person because chances are like the ways in which the speeds which with which with which we can process language. So I've got really slow processing speed. So I'll I'll miss out on stuff in conversation, on the meanings of stuff. Or the speed with which we learn certain social cues or the meanings of certain like social norms will probably always be behind the curve. Um, and what we try and kind of teach young people is it it's okay. Like it's okay that we don't notice things instinctively, like we shouldn't feel shame about that, we're not to blame for it. But as we get older, we just need to build up a bit of understanding, um, know when to take responsibility for things, but then also know when to self-advocate, because sometimes you know, other people do do things that are insensitive or are unkind, and sort of you know, building enough self-confidence because when we're really anxious and where we are self-when we're isolating ourselves or withdrawing, you know, the idea of standing up for ourselves is is a thing that it's huge, it's massive, it's too big. Um, but by building up the capacity to do that in something like a gaming space, you're basically building up that resilience and ability for self-advocacy in just like little incremental notches. And it might be something as simple as saying, you know, maybe a child comes to us and says, Oh, so and so really wanted to battle or wanted to swap this thing, I didn't want to swap this thing. They kept on asking, I I feel nervous or scared or really bad. And then we can kind of say, Well, did you we did you feel able to say no? Did you let them know how you felt? And if they didn't feel confident and able enough, then that's our first step in helping them kind of express their own needs, and then after that, we can kind of help with that social situation. Then if the other kid doesn't respond, we can help with that interaction, or if they do, then they've learned a really hopefully really simple, valuable lesson, which is like okay, at times things are scary and hard, but if we do speak up, most people want to help us generally, like most people in life do. Um, so yeah, it's fascinating.

Dr Olivia:

And that's so different, and that's so different than the playground. You know what I mean? Where when you when you have read things incorrectly and then you get isolated from the cool group, as my daughter would call some of the kids at school, and then I'm like, what makes them cool? You know, she but you know what I mean? And then and then there's no, you know, it's very hard to navigate or get yourself back, or you know, and it becomes a bigger thing, you know, and it be and it becomes out of proportion and it builds that anxiety. I mean, how wonderful to have an environment where you can express your own fear and get support for that fear and work through it. Yeah, exactly. I should be a salesperson for Uncommon, basically, because I think it's I think it's great. You know, it's it's it's it's such a it's such a great uh way and it's such a supported way. And I know that there's lots of there are other places that do this. What differentiates, and I don't know anything about them, you probably do as competitive research. What differentiates you from them?

Kirsten:

So um there are some servers that are dedicated to the young autistic community, but most of those rely on either parents kind of um pairing with their kids and coming in and supporting them in social interactions with that space, or it's a little bit ad hoc as to whether there are moderators around and whether you know the moderator who's on there and on call. So it doesn't give you that kind of space to build up that relationship, and that server isn't claiming to know your child. There might be thousands of people on the server and they don't specifically get to know you when you join. Interesting.

Dr Olivia:

I think the other so yours is you really unique then. It's that then that's very unique. And it sounds like yours is not just for autistic children, it's for all neurodiverse or even, you know, non-just children that are struggling socially or or having um exactly.

Kirsten:

Yeah, it's for it's for all neurodiverse children. Anyone from a family where you feel there's neurodiversity, we don't need young people to be diagnosed. We do need kids to be comfortable about the idea that maybe their way brains are wired differently. But even in our courses that we run, sort of our understanding my brain courses where we uh kind of look at how our brains work differently, we never talk about diagnoses because the fact is, sort of most young people will have four or more different diagnoses.

Dr Olivia:

And alphabet soup.

Kirsten:

Yeah, exactly, kind of alphabet soup. And I think the other thing that we know more and more is there's a lot of overlaps between different kinds of neurodiversity which are getting picked up at very different ages. So there's now quite a lot of young people who were diagnosed dyslexic when they were relatively young, because that's kind of noticed early on in school when kids start to read, who were then diagnosed as ADD because they didn't weren't necessarily kind of visibly kind of hyperactive or super energetic, but actually, when it comes to exam times, especially, and they don't have the executive functioning skills to structure their time, to study the working memory, challenges are all there.

Dr Olivia:

You know, those it's one of my bugbears, I tell you. And it, you know, and uh the ADD term is not actually used that much anymore. I think it's it's all called ADHD, I think, under the umbrella now of the diagnostics. But why they don't screen dyslexics for ADHD as well, it would have saved me a lot of problems. And, you know, probably, you know, I didn't get diagnosed until I was in university either, because I'm a 1990s kind of kid, as I'm a little bit older than you, but um, you know, so uh my brother was the hyperactive form, so he was. But you know, it's it's just why you know we test our children for vision and stuff when you know how how interlinked these things are and how much trouble it can cause going forward. And then it becomes a really bigger problem. Why we don't just test and make it, you know, like you get used to get milk in school, right? And I think they do sometimes still give milk in school. Why don't we just do these screetings and get the support that kids need early on? I know I'm speaking to the converted here, but um it just irritates me.

Kirsten:

I know it's it's so tricky, and we were so keen to not be kind of pigeonholed around any particular diagnosis because I think what what we know about kind of humans in life is the humans that are successful uh generally have strong peer groups, they have strong networks around them. You know, the people that succeed in life are the ones who build up those networks and kind of get places.

Dr Olivia:

It's not what you know, it's who you know.

Kirsten:

It's not what you know, it's who you know. And the fact is, if as a kid you are struggling socially, if you become withdrawn and you self-isolate, you lose like one of the most crucial periods of development in your life in terms of your opportunity to build out. Like we don't really like using the term social skills because we would never teach kind of neurotypical social skills, but everyone needs to practice being social, like everyone does. Um that's like how we find our way of doing it that's our style, it's how we learn like common situations and how to navigate them. And if, as we see with a lot of young people, you start to retreat and I from social things age 9, 10, 11, then it makes your transition to secondary school so difficult. It makes and that's not the only thing that makes that transition difficult, by the way. But um yeah, when we see young people becoming isolated, it generally then means that they become more anxious. If it persists, it generally means they will may at some point um experience depression. And none of these things are things that we want for our kids. And so whilst kind of friendship and belonging and feeling safe may seem something that is quite kind of simple, like just having people around us that that isn't friendships, that's just people. Like we need to have people around us that we can relate to, that we feel safe with, that we can communicate in ways where we are ourselves and we communicate naturally. Because the other thing that kind of happens through that period of adolescence is is identity formation. So that's when we kind of uh become to understand like who we are, what we want to do, uh, what we take interest in. And unfortunately, for kids that do become more isolated, what then often happens is they lose interest in other things. So you'll notice that kind of com interest that they had get dropped. And I see a lot of parents who feel really sad about this, and I can completely understand. I definitely did this. Um, I just came home after school each day and just sat in a room for five to six hours and then went to bed, and that's all I did every day. And that's not really for me, that doesn't feel like a high quality life or experience growing up. Like, you know, you want your kid to be enjoying things that they enjoy and they're passionate about, and finding a group where you feel that you belong, that share your interests, that encourage those passions, um, that gives you the validation for that, where you find belonging, like all of those things means that we then form a positive sense of self. So we know that I'm somebody who uh loves this kind of humour. I love making things, I love yeah, anyway. Any and all kinds of things. Like being able to feel confident about yourself and who you are and what you enjoy and what makes you tick, then gives you the ability to think where you want to go in the world, to self-advocate, all these kinds of things. So, yeah, the feel f feeling a sense of belonging, being able to be yourself is is really not a small thing. It's that thing that enables you to then have that energy and passion to really go out and do what you want to do in life.

Dr Olivia:

And often in schools and education systems with children who are neurodiverse, they are made to feel different, they are made to be outside of, they are made to feel not part of, um, different, um not, you know, so all of those things that are so key and so important, and how you so eloquently put it are often lacking in their experience in standardized school, sadly. So um the need is even greater for these children.

Kirsten:

Yeah, the need is much greater, and I think sadly, the way in which education is structured at the moment, and I'm sure you've had this conversation with others, doesn't work that well for neurodivergent brains. You know, we we work better when we get to deep dive into things. Um, there's studies done by um Professor Liz Pelicano, who's the UCL Professor of Autism, um, that looked at how autistic children kind of change their studying habits when COVID hit and when they got to homeschool instead. And a lot of kids basically said, actually, now I do much better when I get to do this kind of one intense like hit of a subject, and then I get to deep dive. And just the way in which lessons are structured, the curriculum is structured, none of it allows that space for kids to kind of really get in, go deep, which is what we're great at. And yeah, I think I think it's fascinating because you know the world is is changing a lot, and actually, what we need to be able to do is we need to be able to be self-directed, we need to be able to think independently, be creative, be autonomous. You know, we're not building people to kind of go into like standard office jobs anymore.

Dr Olivia:

Um and school's just not fit for purpose.

Kirsten:

It's not quite there, is it?

Dr Olivia:

Um not only that, it's destroying those kind of minds that have those qualities. And it I mean that's a bit dramatic, but you know, I'll I I I do think that it's it's not only not fit for purpose, but it also destroys creativity and it destroys autonomy and it destroys that self-direction. Um, there are a lot of alternative education sources and ways to educate your child now which are breaking those barriers. But if we're just thinking traditional learning um to a degree, uh, a big degree, it it it has um, yeah, it hasn't moved on with the times.

Kirsten:

Yeah, it has its challenges. So, I mean, we we have um so we also do mentoring at Uncommon. And so we mentor around all sorts of things. With some young people, it's about really deep diving into who they are and what's happening in their lives, and some of those things will be around how their brains work differently, some of it will be around the social experiences they're happening, they're having. Um, it's not therapy, it's a chance to have someone alongside you on your journey and to also try and kind of, I suppose, declinicalize things because the fact is um it has been shown that really just talking to a peer in a structure-supported way is as good as therapy in many instances.

Dr Olivia:

Maybe better, because you might might align more with that individual. I don't know. I've been through a lot of therapists with my daughter, and so far we haven't met many that we've really bonded with. Um if if if I was a parent listening right now, how um how would it work? So we would go to your webpage, where how would you how would you recommend people dipping their toe in and and what would you recommend their journey looks like?

Kirsten:

So we say you start kind of wire works in the space that works for you. So people can start either through doing a course, through starting a club, or through starting mentoring with us. So often the young people who join us um, starting with mentoring, might be quite anxious. They might have a real passion that they want to build uh with one of our mentors, as some of our mentoring is kind of skills and passion-led. Um, or it may be that they they really need someone along them in their journey at that moment in time. Um often from mentoring, people will then branch out into clubs. So most parents that we know, um, you know, their kids do also want to find friends, to get into different interests, and to do that along with other young people. So often you'll start in mentoring, then branch out from there.

Dr Olivia:

Um we also have That makes sense. It's kind of a safe approach, like uh you kind of handheld a bit by the mentor before you're um going straight into a uh a group. Or do some kids go straight into a group and they feel confident enough to do that? I don't know.

Kirsten:

Yeah, so some some kids go straight into groups. So I'd say the kids that feel kind of socially confident enough to just dive in, uh dive into groups because what they want to do is they want to play Minecraft with other people, or they really want to talk about it.

Dr Olivia:

They want to talk to someone.

Kirsten:

Well, or or they want to talk about their favourite musical with people, or we have like LGBTQ clubs starting um in a couple of weeks' time. So I think you know, having those spaces where they're immediately with others like them and they get to kind of talk about these things often for the first time, maybe in that in that safe space. Um yeah, so that's where I think clubs really come to the fore. People can do a taster, and then we ask that sort of once you've done enough tasters to kind of find your feet, then you can become a member, and that means then you can get access to all the servers in between spaces and all the chat spaces and things like that. And then we've got free talks that we do, and that's really when you kind of come into the uncommon kind of community space and get a sense of who else is out there. Kids meet each other through them through the spaces, so we know kids that are in totally different clubs, uh, but they then get to know each other, they do activities together, they play together, having kind of met through that community space. And in the autumn, we're also going to launch a uh young leaders program. So we've got some young people who've been with us for 18 months or more at the moment, and so yeah, we're really looking forward to them. Some are sort of simply like graduating through, so some are getting close to the end of school, some are doing work experience with us, um, some are training in as mentors with us, and some are kind of becoming kind of helpers and supporters of of clubs. So, really, you know, you can join a club, you can kind of come on a journey with us, and I think a whole ecosystem. Yeah, well, we were keen that people um didn't get kind of forced out because I think that's something that we heard from a lot of parents. You know, they would spend ages advocating for a place in a on on CAMS or in this course or with a therapist or in a club, but it would last for 10 to 12 weeks and then they'd be out, or their kid would hit a certain age, and again, out. Um, so yeah, so we were basically keen that we could kind of flex with people and also that people don't need to feel tied in to anything. So we're here, we've also had families who will kind of be with us for a term, a couple of terms, a year, they take a break, and then often they come back. I think just because it's a very kind of warm, safe space, and kids really do bond with the the mentors, and they are, you know, they're trusted adults in their lives, and I think it's just such a such an important thing. So yeah, you can start.

Dr Olivia:

And how much does this all cost for a parents?

Kirsten:

So our clubs are £50 a month, and that includes a weekly club session. It includes also um a free club session each week, our gamers club, which is a very kind of social space where kids meet, and access to our safe servers and online community. So there's a lot in there. Some kids will kind of spend like five plus hours a week with us on that £50, which is a lot.

Dr Olivia:

More than you can get in after-school activities, let me tell you. Nothing is £50 anymore.

Kirsten:

Exactly. Well, and some families do come with us for after school, so we do bundles of clubs as well. So if you want to do multiple clubs and create a whole after-school program, you can do. We do clubs in the afternoon as well. Uh, we're also increasingly working with schools. So if you are a Senko or if your school is looking at kind of new club partners to bring in, then we can deliver directly in schools as well. Um, our courses are £120 per course, and our camps, so we run summer camps, holiday camps, are £120 for a three-day session. So, yeah, we try and basically keep it in line with what other clubs and things cost. Because my feeling was as a parent.

Dr Olivia:

I think it's less, it's less than what you would pay for in-person clubs, I would say.

Kirsten:

Yeah, I mean it's we we try and reflect the fact that we have some some savings in that. Um so yeah, we just want to make sure that basically parents can access what they need, they can flex it. Because, yeah, why should you be paying extortionate prices just because your kid thinks differently? And we're 20% of the population, so we're not really that unusual, you know.

Dr Olivia:

Excellent. Um, and thank you so much. I mean, you've given so much food for thought today, and also not just food for thought, but also a solution as well, which is great. As I love, you know, we we we all experience this with our children, but it's it's it's hard, and you can struggle to find the right social kind of group or or way to support your kid to get that identity, to get that confidence, to get that autonomy, which is what we all want for our children. There's none of us listening, I know, that don't want that for their children. Um, if you could give three top tips to our listeners who maybe are struggling right now with this, what three top tips would you give them?

Kirsten:

So I think the first thing I always kind of say to parents is just take time to validate your children's struggles. I think often we so want to reassure them that it'll be okay, that that is the first thing that we lead with. But kids really need time to talk and offload their experiences. And I think it's in giving that space and not having our first reaction with, oh, it's be okay, I'll help with that, you know, that you know, that we can give that space for them to open up and maybe understand exactly what it is that they are struggling with. Because sometimes early on it might just be light rejection sensitivity, because maybe hormones are changing, it's or awareness is changing. So yeah, I think give that space. Um, secondly, I think you know, if you if you relate to what they're saying from any stage in your life, like tell them. Um, you know, neurodivergent kids often have neurodivergent parents, and even if it's not you, you might recognize the stuff they're saying, you might recognise that your brother had that problem, or your partner has that problem, or your uncle, you know, that may be others around you. And I think letting them know that you've had that struggle and or someone that they know has had that struggle, and then having the chance to talk through with them, well, how did it feel? What happened? Like, what helped that change? Uh and then being a sounding board for them in terms of like what can you do, what can you try in those situations? I think is really key. I think sometimes we maybe don't necessarily want to reveal that like we had big struggles or that something was hard because maybe it implies that therefore it will definitely be hard for them. But I think kids would rather know that there are other people that they know that found that hard and that solved it than I'm smiling, I'm smiling at you because my daughter goes to me, she goes, I told her I was a nerd.

Dr Olivia:

You know, even the nerds didn't like me in in high school, and she goes, and so now she goes not listening to you, you were just a nerd. Yeah. I mean, but it it but but it does, I totally agree with you. It opens up because then they then they can hear that they're not alone in this as well, and that you know, someone, you know, it helps to know that that there are other people in your family that you that you love and and and value that have also had similar struggles. It's incredibly validating.

Kirsten:

Yeah, exactly. And then I think the last thing I'd say is just be proactive in building support networks. You know, if your child or if you yourself have uh over time found it difficult to make those friends, build friendships, keep friendships, um, you know, it's a time to be a bit proactive about it. There will be people that your child knows or that you know that kind of have the answers or some of the answers or like ways of helping or supporting. And it might just be quite unusual people. So maybe you've noticed that they get on really well with that person that they do a football club with or judo or whatever it is. You know, maybe just touch in with them and explain what's going on and ask if they can kind of watch out for stuff in sessions that they're doing. Maybe it's a family member who you don't necessarily have a great personal relationship with, but you're like, actually, they're really similar because traits will often like pass like through different parts of the family. And and for sure, like I can see it when I look at my family tree, you're like, oh, that trait came from over here, and then now it's like down there, and they're like peas and a pod kind of thing. So yeah, I think finding those points of similarity, be it trusted adults outside of the network, be it um parents of friends, be it kids, be it older kids as well, like kids that can kind of like watch out for stuff. I think building that kind of support network around your kid and just actively talking to people in that network and saying, these are the struggles, this is what we're finding. I think you might be able to relate to this or understand this or give me advice on this, because I don't think there is any one solution for this. I think it's yeah, we also it takes a village, but I think very specifically in terms of navigating the complexities of life and social life, it really does take like a lot of different perspectives because your kids are going to encounter so many different kinds of people, which is you know, which is why we, for instance, we need to make sure that we recruit former bad boys, for instance. Like, you know, we need to have people in our team who were the kids who got angry and the kids who said and did things that then they had to all back on because otherwise, how can we yeah, for for the kids that come to feeling that way, you know, how can we make sure that we've got people who understand? So yeah.

Dr Olivia:

That's super important. You know, it brings up a it brings up another thing in my head as well, which is something that I've just recently learned, which is, you know, if your child is in an afterschool activity that they're really enjoying, they tend to push them up to different levels with ages, right? And as we've discussed earlier in this podcast, my daughter's three years behind her peers, and and she's at a, you know, has made friends in in that age group and doesn't want to move up to the next age group, nor is she ready to. And so I've just reached out to the organizer and said, you know what? And this is the second year I've done it. I'm like, she's still not ready, and she's still really happy. And her friend, also who's autistic, my daughter has ADHD. They both don't want to move up. They're both very happy with the group that they're in. And and they're they're fit chronologically, or they they feel very comfortable, they've made a network. And you know what the the the person who organizes it said came back to me and said, Oh, you know what? The people in the group would really miss them too because they form this nice group together because it it goes beyond ages. So I think, you know, reach out to your club coordinators if you feel that your your child isn't moving in the pathway, because you can change it with clubs, and it can be a really positive experience for everyone. And I don't, I didn't even like think about it until my daughter was like, Oh, I don't want to move up. And I'm like, Oh, well, let's see if you don't have to, you know, you don't have to.

Kirsten:

Exactly. I think, you know, given given where we are with education, you just need to find every like little bit of of wriggle room, basically. Yeah, exactly. Be it mentors you can get for your kids, be it family support, be it clubs that you're in, um, even kind of things like friendships, uh, you know, talking through some of those challenges with your kids, friends, parents, not always possible, obviously, but um, I mean, and yeah, we find that people kind of often flock together, I know at least kind of with my other parent friends. There's there's a lot of overlapping of traits and affinities, so it's that tribe mentality, I tell you. There is, it is.

Dr Olivia:

And that's why this is so important because this is these are all lessons that our children will use in their adult lives and will make them stronger in their adult lives. They're learning the skills that are so important for us as adults as well. So I wanted to give you a big thank you. It has been incredibly enlightening today, and I've really enjoyed our conversation.

Kirsten:

Well, thank you so much for having me. And yeah, we'd love to welcome so many more families to Uncommon. Uh, they can always get in contact with this at hello at uncommonminds.co.uk or our website is www.bemoreuncommon.com.

Dr Olivia:

And for those of you who can't remember and have no short-term working memory like myself, it will be in the show notes and you can just click on it to access it. So don't worry, you don't have to remember or have a pen right now. We got you covered. Thank you, Kirsten. Thank you so much, Olivia. Take care. Thank you for listening Send Parenting Tribe. If you haven't already, please click on the link in the show notes to join us in the private Send Parenting WhatsApp community. It's been wonderful to be able to communicate with everyone in the community and for us to join together to help each other, to navigate challenges, and to also celebrate successes. Wishing you and your family a really good week ahead.