SEND Parenting Podcast
Welcome to the Send Parenting Podcast. I'm your neurodiverse host, Dr Olivia Kessel, and, more importantly, I am a mother to my wonderfully neurodivergent daughter, Alexandra, who really inspired this podcast.
As a veteran in navigating the world of neurodiversity, I have uncovered a wealth of misinformation, alongside many answers and solutions that were never taught to me in medical school or in any of the parenting handbooks.
Each week on this podcast, I will be bringing the experts to your ears to empower you on your parenting crusade.
SEND Parenting Podcast
EP 148: Parenting PDA: Strategies That Actually Work
If parenting your child feels like a constant battle—and every strategy you have been told to use only makes things worse—you are not alone. Many families live this struggle daily without realising there is a name for what they are seeing: Pathological Demand Avoidance (PDA).
In this episode, we speak with Rachel Crutcher and Sarah Stewart from the PDA Society, two experts who have walked this path both personally and professionally. Together, we uncover why everyday demands trigger such intense anxiety, why rewards and consequences backfire, and how a calm-first, collaborative approach can finally bring relief.
You will hear the early signs many parents miss—demand avoidance even for things a child usually loves, the need for control, and the familiar pattern of fine at school, meltdown at home. Once you understand PDA through a can’t-not-won’t lens, everything begins to make sense.
Your guides walk you through the practical steps that transform family life:
• How to lower demands without lowering expectations
• How to spot the hidden “micro-demands” that drain your child before the day has even begun
• How humour, choices, and written prompts make requests feel safe
• Why treating a PDA child like a “mini adult” (explaining the why, asking permission, collaborating) reduces anxiety instantly
We also tackle one of the biggest pain points for PDA families: school. You will learn how masking works, which adjustments truly help, and what flexible, trauma-aware practice looks like in real life. If your school’s ethos is rigid, we help you recognise when it is not the right fit—and where to turn for support and SEND-law guidance.
For families with siblings, we share a simple principle that reduces resentment and restores harmony: use collaborative, low-demand strategies with everyone. It is fair. It is kind. And it works.
Finally, we show you where real, ongoing help exists—through the PDA Society’s free guidance service, moderated parent communities, self-paced learning hub, professional training, and bespoke school consultations.
If you are exhausted, overwhelmed, or unsure what to try next, this episode will give you both clarity and hope.
You can understand your child. You can reconnect. And things can get better.
If this conversation supports you, follow the show, share it with your community, and leave a review—your story may be the encouragement another parent needs.
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Welcome to the Send Parenting Podcast. I'm your neurodiverse host, Dr. Olivia Kessel. And more importantly, I'm mother to my wonderfully neurodivergent daughter, Alexandra, who really inspired this podcast. As a veteran in navigating the world of neurodiversity in a UK education system, I've uncovered a wealth of misinformation, alongside many answers and solutions that were never taught to me in medical school or in any of the parenting handbooks. Each week on this podcast, I will be bringing the experts to your ears to empower you on your parenting crusade. If you are exhausted just thinking about the holidays, you are definitely not alone. Everyone talks about regulating our dysregulated children, but almost no one talks about the exhausted mom who's running on empty. And every expert I've ever spoken to or read from agrees your regulation has to come first. But in December that can feel impossible. That's why I wanted to give you an early Christmas present. A free live webinar on Tuesday, December 9th at 12 p.m. UK time called Keeping Calm During the Holidays. We will dive into the science of co-regulation, why our nervous system sets the tone and how to recognize your own zones of regulation before everything escalates. I'll teach you my tried and trusted five-minute reset ritual that gets you back on track fast so your fight or flight response is not activated. And you can show up as calm as your child needs. Click on the link in the show notes to sign up, and your Zoom link will be sent straight to your inbox. You deserve to feel grounded this December, and I would love to support you. Happy early Christmas. So welcome, Sarah and Rachel. It is such a pleasure to have you on the Send Parenting podcast today to talk about something that a lot of my listeners can really relate to, and that is pathological demand avoidance, PDA. And it's a profile that can appear across a lot of different neurodivergent conditions, although it's you know sometimes paired with autism. I think that's a bit misleading, but um, it can really wreak havoc, as you both know, um, on your family life, especially when you don't understand it. But when you get that understanding and you start to understand the strategies, it can completely change the way we parent, but also how we connect with our children and can really change our lives, basically. And you but you're both nodding your heads here, which which the listeners can't see, but it's so true because not only do you work at the PDA Society, but you both have walked this journey yourselves or are still walking this journey yourself. So I really am so excited to have you today to not only talk about your own journeys, but also about how the PDA Society can help people and listeners out there. So I'd love to start with you, Rachel, in terms of um your journey and with your child and when didn't even the word PDA come up for you?
Rachel Crutcher:Yeah, definitely. It's I think journey is the right word, isn't it? Because I think very often for many, certainly for myself and for many other PDA families that I've spoken to, that it's not the medical profession that first suggests PDA, the parent generally stumbles across it. So I'll give it a sort of a brief brief background for my family. So um we adopted my son when he was one, and um when he was about two and a half to three, I was sort of like, you know, the things are a little bit different because I had an older child as well, and I was like, oh, you know, the usual things I'm doing aren't really, you know, working, and you know, the sort of star charts, and he'd just eat the stickers, and that was point completely pointless, and then that time out Zep, he loved just sitting there singing his songs to himself. So I was like, this just isn't going the way that it went with my previous child. So um my son was already under a pediatrician, and um because he was he had epilepsy and who I got on with very, very well. So I mentioned to her when he was about age three, and I was like, you know, is there a sociable form of autism? Because he's got loads of autistic traits, but he really likes your eye contact and he really wants to engage you um in conversation, um, but he's you know, he but he's got lots of autistic traits. And I was told, no, he's absolutely fine, you're fussing over nothing, don't worry about it, go away. So off I went. And then must be a few months later, I've had in the in the area I live, they send out um to all sort of send families, they send out a little newsletter of what's going on in that county, and there was a tiny paragraph at the bottom of a page about pathological demand avoidance. And I read it and I was like, they're describing my son. It's him to A T. Um and then so from that I went and did, you know, research and straight away came across PDA Society. Um, and then I went on while we were still waiting for him to, you know, my pediatrician begrudgingly agreed to put him on the autism pathway, diagnostic pathway. But while we were waiting for that, um I sort of you know went on one of the um back then it was there were six-week courses that the PDA Society used to run in person. And the closest one to me was um about 150 miles away. So every Friday evening I would be driving 150 miles to attend this in-person course because I was so desperate to find something that would work with my child, and it was brilliant. It was just absolutely, you know, it changed our family dynamic straight away. I got I understood him. I understood why he was doing what he was doing, I understood why all the stuff I was doing wasn't helping, and then um, you know, and I learned what strategies would work, but also then to connect with those other parents as well was great. So we so I in the while we were waiting for that diagnostic assessment to come up, um we, you know, sort of changed the way what we were doing, and things started to get easier, things started to work a little bit more at home, which was brilliant.
Dr Olivia:If I could rewind you a little bit, Rachel, just in terms of, you know, you had these suspicions, you were wondering what were kind of some of the things that you could share with listeners that was putting you on alert or you know, making your gut say, you know, um and then resonated with PDA, if you know what I mean.
Rachel Crutcher:Yeah, it was it well, I think first of all, it was the it was the demand avoidance, the the sort of, you know, but not just demand avoidance over things that I was asking him to do, think demand avoidance over things that he was that I knew he liked doing as well. So he used to love going swimming, but then some days, you know, I and we do have the same routine, I'd take him swimming on the same day, and then he'd like, you know, almost like really refuse to let me get him changed or to, you know, to um put him in sort of swim nappies or anything like that. He it was like point blank refusal, whereas other days he was really, really enjoying it. And then there were some times that he would um sort of you know refuse to eat certain things, and but yet he was he absolutely loves food and he still loves his food, but certain days then we would get refusal over that as well. And there was just lots of outright no's that but but you know, at three years old you're thinking, well, is it his age? Is it not his age? But then we were getting the control things as well, that he would, you know, literally sort of um fight his older sister to grab the toy that she had just because he wanted it and to try and take control over what we were doing. He would also actually uh from the age of two sort of um reduce that meaningful conversation. He would drown out everybody, not let even if we weren't trying to talk to him, but if I was distracted by his sister, he would just make noise, not necessarily words, just noise, so that we couldn't have a conversation. And all those sort of things, it was like, oh, you know, there's there's something else, you know, something else going on here. And we would have lots of the whole lining all of the his animals up in a certain way and all facing the same direction and all that sort of thing. And he would also, you know, like grab your face to make you look at him and make engage you, focus, you know, so that your eye contact was really, really strong. Um, and there was like a lot of that um sort of that sociability, but again, things weren't quite right, so he was like overly friendly with people he'd only just met type thing. And I can remember him actually with with one of the first diagnostician points that we came into contact with, who wasn't the person who ended up diagnosing him, but because we we ended up moving county, so all that got a bit confusing. But this first person, you know, he was saying, Well, I you know, I think he's fine at the point my son had climbed up onto his lap, was looking him in the eye, and was like rubbing the top of his head. And I was like, sure. You know, and he'd never met this guy before, and it was just like I think there is something going on here, you know. So yeah, it's it's a tricky one because it's particularly when they're young, I think, because it people can always explain it away by their developmental age when they're two, when they're three, even possibly when they're four, but actually it's like, well, no, things aren't changing, they're not improving, and then they're not, you know, he's not learning those those things. He's he's he's getting more defiant, he's getting more controlling. So those alarm bells were ringing.
Dr Olivia:And with your professional hat on, um, do most children get diagnosed later because of that? Or I think it's a bit of a mix, actually.
Rachel Crutcher:Yeah, that the the certainty is we do hear from parents um that they have, you know, that they are being put off, that they are being told no weights, it could be other things going on. Um, but we likewise we do hear, you know, of of children three, four years old that are getting diagnosed. So I think it's a bit of a mix. I think it does depend on the experience of the diagnostic team or of the professional that's referring them.
Sarah Stewart:And it is quite interesting as well. Um, we hear from diagnosticians who once they start unpicking the um the developmental history, you know, PDA is always there. It's just not that obvious. So even young babies, once you know you start digging around, you know, like the the when it comes to weaning, for example, the child who always wants the spoon and won't let you sort of feed them, um, the the really young child who will not sleep during the day at all, even though they are exhausted, they will, you know, they do away with their naps very, very early on. Um, so you know, once you start trying to unpick um the evidence is there, um again, it's usually explained away by other things.
Dr Olivia:Yeah, which is it which is easily done because you you you know, I mean, I it's a relative, it's gotten more known, I would say, even in the last year than previously. So it's not on your top list of parenting, you know, what to look out for, you know. So, Sarah, could you tell us a little bit about what exactly is pathological demand avoidance?
Sarah Stewart:Yeah, so um it's most widely understood to be a profile on the autism spectrum, um, but it's characterized by this extreme demand avoidance um linked to anxiety. Um, so Professor Elizabeth Newson, way back in the 1980s, um, she was a developmental psychologist and she well found a cohort of children that she said were autistic, and some there was something else that was just a little bit different than stood them apart from the more classic presentations of autism, and that was you know things like extreme distress when they're and when they were really anxious, or um they wanted to take control in the face of demands. Um, so there are several key characteristics to a PDA profile, it's not just the extreme demand avoidance, but in a nutshell, they will meet the diagnostic um threshold for an autism diagnosis, but then there will be additional characteristics as well. So things like avoiding the ordinary everyday demands. So, as Rachel said, just being able to clean your teeth or being able to pack a bag. Um, but it's not just the things that you would necessarily want to avoid, like homework, you know, the things we all want to avoid. It even applies to things that they want to do as well. So the demand avoidance is the most significant, but it's not the only trait. Um, and in our training programs, we go through what all those different traits are. Um, but one of them, and I think this is where most parents sort of start looking for answers, is that the child just does not respond to conventional parenting strategies. So the boundaries, um, you know, the rewards, incentives, consequences, they just do not work for a PDA. Um, and we're not saying you shouldn't have boundaries at all, we're not saying that at all, but it's just how you implement those boundaries in a PDA-friendly way so that you know you get the best results.
Dr Olivia:Absolutely. Um, because it almost the parent the traditional parenting advice kind of backfires on you to a degree. Completely.
Sarah Stewart:Yeah, and we hear from parents all the time that when they first start having challenges with their child's behaviour, they're asked to attend a traditional parenting program. Um, and I know that you know it just makes things ten times worse. You're kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place because you want to show willing that you're putting in place these strategies, but it just causes so much distress to the child that you know it just makes family life a whole lot worse. So, you know, we hear from families that once they've sort of ticked that box and moved on and then discovered the PDA parenting strategies, it can be transformational.
Dr Olivia:Life-changing, really. Yeah, absolutely. And you mentioned there that it's linked to autism, but is it also, I mean, uh in my world, I have also seen it in other neurodivergent profiles, but would you say that's true or not true?
Sarah Stewart:Um, I think, well, the PDA society stance on it at the moment is that the evidence says it is a profile on the autism spectrum.
Dr Olivia:Okay.
Sarah Stewart:Um, that is their sort of the the research has has been um shown. Um there is anecdotal evidence that it coexists a lot with ADHD. So we did a quick straw poll and that's where my experience is coming from.
Dr Olivia:Yeah, yeah. And I've got one living in my house right now. So, you know, it it it it is a spectrum, isn't it? So I guess it's it you know, it depends where you fall on that um spectrum. No, absolutely. And have you had research with ADHD, or is that still um not that I'm aware of.
Sarah Stewart:I think there's probably research in the pipeline, but anecdotally, um when you speak to sort of people in the know, um, that there does seem to be that connection with ADHD, but nothing official as yet that I'm aware of.
Dr Olivia:Because it's interesting, I would say that probably some of the principles or strategies for parenting, they really do link uh to together in terms of how you how you decide to parent and what you you know, how you um work with your child. Because it's really, you know, this need for control and the anxiety, it's not a manipulation, which can sometimes with the traditional parenting, that's kind of the route that you take. Um, can you explain to us a little bit about how what's different about the parenting strategies that like the PDA Society uh uh teaches and also that you went to experience 150 miles every Friday? I'm really impressed.
Rachel Crutcher:Yeah, good strategies there for all that driving. They were very good strategies, yeah. I mean, and at the heart of it, it's we we talk a lot about the sort of the low demand, low arousal. So, you know, low lower the demands, have a look at what what you do in sort of you know, all those demands, let's say in the morning, when we're all getting up, they're trying to get the kids out to school, you're trying to get out to work. What are all those demands that we are putting on our child and to recognise them first of all? Um, and there's an awful lot more than we think that there is, and then what's the essential and what's the nice to-do's? So for me, and it'll be different for everybody. So for me, my essential for my son to get that I need him to do before he leaves the house in the morning, there's three. He needs to uh sorry, well, there's four technically, he needs to get up, he needs to get dressed, but sometimes I have to dress him, but he'll let me do that. He needs to eat, um I'd like him to leave happy, leave the house happy for his day. Everything else, washing, brushing teeth, brushing hair, everything else, it ha if it happens, wonderful. But I don't ask him to do it, and I don't make a big deal of it if he does do it. Because we have to be very careful with pr with praise, but I'm sure we'll we'll come onto that a little bit later. So low demand as much as you as we can is sort of one of our central messages that we always put across. So that picking your battles, if you like.
Dr Olivia:Um I I've heard, Rachel, you know, like if you uh or I've done it myself actually as a as a parent, if you write down everything that you do ask of your child in the morning, it's quite scary, actually. You know, or and then if you expand it out to the whole day, or when they come home, I mean we're constantly Yeah.
Rachel Crutcher:There's so many demands for a PDA, and then we've got to look at the demands within demands as well. So if you think I might mention earlier about, you know, I don't ask my son to brush his teeth in the morning, brushing your teeth is not one demand. There's about ten different steps to brushing your teeth, and each one of those is a demand for a PDA, and they are all cumulative. So if you think about capacity, uh uh a child's capacity is is a fixed amount for that day. Some days, if their anxiety is high, that capacity is reduced before they've started, before they've even got up in the morning, their capacity is reduced. Then every one of those little demands is taking more capacity away. So for some kids, but before they've even left the house in the morning, they've reached their limit. They're they're virtually, or if not, on um distress behaviour point, because there are so many demands that we put on them that again, you know, we might not recognise ourselves that they're demands. And then of course we've got those demands that we can't take away for them, but the internal ones like hunger, thirst, needing the loo, sleeping. Um we can't do anything to soften those. So we do need to soften the ones that we can influence. So that low demand approach, that low arousal approach is important as well. Not getting ex, you know, trying to keep everything on an even keel, not getting too excited over anything. So sort of, you know, um, you know, we're sort of the the we're on the virtually on the run up to Christmas now, aren't we? We will be scary, but yes. I know, I know. It's getting very close, isn't it? But we will I love Christmas. So does my daughter. However, we have to hold it in.
Dr Olivia:We hold it in. We've already watched a Christmas movie. And just for the, you know, because people will be listening to this at a different time, it's October now, October 31st. Yeah.
Rachel Crutcher:But we have to hold it in. We can't get overly excited about it because if we do, it pushes the arousal level too high, and then my son can't regulate himself back down again. So very easily that hyper happiness turns to anger, and therefore, then sort of, you know, then all the explosive behaviours happen. So low arousal, low demand are the absolute central part. Um, and then, of course, other strategies we talk about. Sarah, I don't know if you want to talk about the approaches a bit more or yeah.
Sarah Stewart:I mean, I heard a great expression, it was only yesterday I heard it, and it was treat them like a mini adult. Um, PDAs have no understanding or well, it's not an understanding, but hierarchy just doesn't exist in their world. So they see themselves as equal. So when having conversations with the young person, it's about explaining things, it's about asking permission, exactly as you would do to an adult and allowing some sort of choice and control as well. So giving options and allowing them the choice, you know. So for lunch, for example, do you want um spaghetti on toast or would you like sausages? They'll probably come up with something completely different, but just giving them that choice allows them to have that control. Um, and trying to disguise demands as well, that's something else we really advocate. So you can be quite clever, uh, you have to think out of the box, but um, how can you adapt to demand so it lands as being less demandy? Oh, so you've got to give an example there. Well, there is an example which I love, which is not an everyday example, but um a colleague of ours used to work in um a very specialist school up in Sheffield, um, and they had a PDA child who used to live out his life as a car. He was a car. Um, and they were having real trouble with him running in the corridors. Um, it was almost becoming a health and safety issue. Um, of course, you could you know impose a sanction every time he was running and not walking, that would not work. Um, no matter how many times you told him to slow down, it would not work. So they thought, what can we do? So, to disguise the demand of compliance, they stepped into his world and actually painted white lines down the middle of the corridors, they put up speed restriction signs, they put up um traffic lights, and all of a sudden he complied. Um, and if they were having trouble with him accessing the classroom, for example, they would pretend that that was um a service, a car garage, an MOT service station, and he had to come in for his MOT. So just by disguising the demand and playing into his world and you know, indulging him in his fantasy, um, he was he was able to comply with the demand. Now that's a quite an extreme one, but it's just simple things really, like um quite often just writing things down depending on the age of the child, rather than verbalising the request, that can be perceived as less demandy, so sending a text message or or just writing a post-it note. Rach, have you got any other examples?
Rachel Crutcher:It's yeah, you know, sort of using using humour is is a great one. Um and particularly I think when you when you're trying to soften the demand that you need the child to do, if you can distract them also by using humour, I mean I frequently will sort of pretend to sort of trip over something um and have a little stumble and then laugh at laugh at myself. And then that makes if you can make them laugh or smile, then that naturally releases those happy endorphins, doesn't it? And helps that anxiety go down. So there's lots of, you know, there's lot using humour is a great one, but blaming the higher authority, it's not you asking them to do something, it's the government, it's the king, whoever it might be, as long as they're never gonna meet that person. That's that's very key to that strategy. Um what else have we got? So oh goodness me.
Sarah Stewart:So negotiation I was gonna say negotiation and collaboration, so everything is up for discussion. Um, and it's about create co-creating the solution so that they feel they've had input and there's therefore some control over the situation as well. Um, and quite often, you know, well-meaning family members might say, Well, why don't you just tell them you're the adult? But actually, you know, again, it's that adult-to-adult discussion that you have with the child, explaining things um so that they understand it, because PDA is have a very acute fear of the unknown. Um, so that intolerance of uncertainty is particularly high in the PDA cohort. So by explaining things, being crystal clear on what anything is going to involve, that really helps them as well.
Dr Olivia:And that brings up a really good point with family members, because you know, and I know my father makes fun of me, and I've also had partners who've made fun of me and say, Oh, you're constantly negotiating. You know, you're you're letting her get one over on you because you're negotiating. And I'm like, you know what? I know how to parent her, you don't.
Sarah Stewart:So yeah.
Dr Olivia:This is non-negotiable for me.
Sarah Stewart:Yeah, absolutely. And it's about what is the outcome we're trying to achieve here. You know, Rachel could insist that her son cleans his teeth every morning and brushes his hair, but that's going to have a negative consequence on him going to school. So if going to school is the thing you need to happen that day, then that's what has to happen.
Rachel Crutcher:I think it's it's also um, I think sort of the impact on a parent sometimes when you're constantly being told by other people, why are you doing it this way? You should do it this way. Well, you're, as you say, you're being too easy on them.
Dr Olivia:Yeah.
Rachel Crutcher:And I think for the parent themselves, then that brings in self-doubt and that brings in, oh, well, am I doing it? Should I be doing it? And I, you know, even though I, you know, obviously know a lot about PDA and parent my child in a PDA way, when I am it with, you know, sort of um maybe friends that we aren't so close to us, sort of, or distant, you know, sort of further family members, I find myself getting anxious over, oh, what's he going to do? And I I then clock myself going, What are you doing? You're parenting him differently now. So, you know, stop it and do it the way that we do it at home. You know, I catch myself doing it sometimes because you're so worried about what others' people's perceptions are, which I think is, you know, a sort of a trait that we've all got. And actually, we just need to try to put that to a s you know, focus on this is what my child needs. Doesn't matter what anyone else thinks, I know what my child needs and I'm providing it, and that's the most important thing.
Dr Olivia:Yeah, absolutely. And and when you don't, unfortunately, it usually does backfire on you horribly, horrifically, and you realise you should never, ever, ever have bowed to the pressures of others.
Rachel Crutcher:Yeah, and it but it is hard. It is really, really hard, and particularly when you've got, you know, you're you might have a particular battle over some aspect, say, let's use the cleaning the teeth one. And then if my son would go to his respite carer and she'll say every, you know, each time you've got, oh, and he's cleaned his teeth lovely, almost like that as if it was like, I'm you know, he does it for me, why would he do it for you? And then again, then that you that takes a little bit of a knock on you, but you've got then you've got to think, no, he's doing it because he's masking, and I know I'm gonna end up getting the fallout from it, but he's he's doing it because he doesn't want to disappoint you, but actually he's finding it really, really stressful. So we know, you know, as parents, we know our kids best, don't we? We know what's going to increase their anxiety levels, and it's it is, as Sarah mentioned earlier, it's all about managing those anxiety levels for a PDA child.
Dr Olivia:And you mentioned that your daughter's in the house as well, and you have to kind of dampen down your, you know, the way you uh both experience stuff. How do you deal with that when you have one PDA profile child and one that's not? And how do you, you know, how do you navigate those family dynamics?
Rachel Crutcher:Yeah, it used to be really, really tricky when certainly when she was younger, and certainly again, over things like having the iPad at the table, you know, he he needed that to focus on the iPad so then he could eat, he would eat his food and just stay still long enough to eat. And then, of course, for her, well, we were sort of had that you know traditional family, let's talk, let's talk about our days, and you know, no, you know, no screens at at the table. And for her, it was obvious, you know, it was like, well, why is he allowed it? And I'm not allowed it, that's not fair, etc. And we had we really struggled with that for a couple of years until I realized why I need to parent them both the same, parent them both a PDA way. Because PDA parenting strategies are kind and collaborative, they're not going to do any harm to a child that's not PDA, but traditional parenting strategies will harm a child that is PDA. So once that clicked for me, um, and I started parenting them both the same, lots of things got an awful lot easier. Less stress on myself trying to be this perfect parent for both children, but also that it helped, you know, she felt heard, she felt validated that she, you know, that she was an important member of the family. And I think another turning point was when, because she's three years older than him, when she realized what his struggles were, and bizarrely, that that happened in the first lockdown, and it was one of the other one about the the only positive thing for us that came out of COVID was actually she really got him because she had to spend so much time with him, and that and their relationship now is wonderful, absolutely wonderful. They really do support uh support each other. She's brilliant with him. But it did take that time, it did take that connection time and her understanding. But from a parental point of view, once I realized just parent them the same, stopped trying to do things differently for one child to the other, everything got a lot smoother.
Dr Olivia:That's really good advice. And uh, you know, I've I've I've heard parents struggling with that. You know, you you can't be you it's schizophrenic to parent one child one way and and and parent another. You would think you know, but there's all that kind of parenting guilt that, you know, oh you know, well, if they both have the iPad at the table, then what's gonna happen?
Rachel Crutcher:You know, like Yeah, yeah, it's it just means it's a quiet, quieter tea time. It's you know, nothing bad is gonna happen. And you will have those connection conversations at another time. Yeah, but sometimes what we found happening actually, if I started engaging one of them in conversation, they'd turn their iPad off and then they'd start talking stuff. Me, but that was their choice. They chose to engage rather than me insisting they engage. And again, very, very different outcome. But yeah, it's it's it's it's I think it's always about you know the parent making that change. And then once you're brave enough to make the change, then you will see the benefit of it.
Dr Olivia:And if you if you think about it, like long term, you're actually teaching your child to have that autonomy and have that ability to kind of manage themselves, which is something we want for them as they grow up anyway, but something that somehow seems to be lacking from most parenting kind of uh traditional parenting ideas or ideologies, um, where we tell them everything and we are king and you you will do it as I you will do as I say, not as I do philosophies.
Rachel Crutcher:Yeah, it is, though, isn't it? That's what traditional parenting is, isn't it? It's my house, my rules, we're doing it my way. But actually, you give them that choice, you give them that autonomy, and yes, it's a brave step as a parent, but actually you are empowering your children that therefore they you know you're you're giving them those building blocks, aren't you, of what you need they need to be an adult. So that's great.
Dr Olivia:But then they go to school.
Rachel Crutcher:There we go.
Dr Olivia:And there we have a very antiquated system which kind of is even more old-fashioned than the parenting uh books that are being you know regurgitated every hundred years. How do you manage that? And what advice would you have?
Rachel Crutcher:It's it's a difficult one. Um for us, we were quite fortunate in that um my son, well, not fortunate in that he has learning difficulties as well, but fortunate in that because of his learning difficulties and clearly the PDA that at that time wasn't diagnosed, he only lasted six months in a mainstream school, and then he got into a specialist provision. So that specialist provision, then I went in and told them all about PDA, and because at the time they hadn't had experience with PDA, and they were brilliant. They just absorbed it all, they really took it on board, and they were fabulous, absolutely fabulous with him. You know, he has had a couple of teachers over the years, yes, that have really struggled and have done things more from the traditional autism approach, which is we know for many PDAs, the traditional autism strategies often make it worse. Um so again, then it's just having those conversations, those professional conversations. I mean, you know, but I've seen it from the other side as well, because my background is teaching, I've taught for 20 years in a mainstream secondary school, and yes, you're right, everything is so rigid and it has to be the you know, it's very much the teacher's way. But again, when I started using in my practice in my classroom, doing things slightly differently, those connections that you make with the children improve drastically, but it's just having that confidence um to let go a little bit, to give them that little bit of breathing space and then see how they flourish. Whereas I think very often we're too much, no, it's my room, it's my rules, we do it my way. But actually we've got to do it slight differently.
Sarah Stewart:So and I think I think for parents as well, it's really, you know, if your child is so distressed about going to school, it's having that understanding that this is a case of can't, not won't. You know, the child who probably desperately wants to go to school to see their mates and you know, play and and have interaction, but they just can't, you know, the school environment is just too distressing for them, whether that's from a sensory perspective, whether it's you know the amount of demands that are placed on them, whether it's the rigid behaviour policy, you know, the imposed sanctions for things that they may feel are unjust because they can't, not won't, um, you know, it can be really, really traumatising. So, you know, my sort of guidance would be know your rights in terms of send law, um, what the expectations are in terms of what the school need to be able to do in terms of reasonable adjustments and seek guidance on that. Um, and there are some great charities out there who can support you with that. Um, and also it's about education because quite often PDAs will mask all day at school. Teachers say they're absolutely fine here, the issues must be at home because that's that's where you're seeing the behaviours. Um, but if if you've got you know somebody in that school who is receptive and wants to learn and understand about PDA, then you know education can go a long way. And we have loads of resources on our website that um families can send to schools and you know, and sort of support getting that message across about you know, this is distressed behaviour, this is not a refusal per se, um, and just some of the simple strategies schools can put in place, um, just simple things like giving choice, um, you know, and it can just make such such a difference.
Rachel Crutcher:Yeah, and I think you it's the the important point I think that you made there in passing was that it's that communication between school and parents is so vital because, as Sarah said, a lot of the anxiety is built up at school, but many PDAers will mask and then they'll come home, and often it's the minute they've set foot in the car or set foot over the front door, the explosion happens, parent hasn't got a clue what's happened or what's the causing it apart from school, but doesn't know the details, and therefore it's really hard to diffuse it. Whereas if school try and, you know, even if they're not seeing any demand avoidant behaviours and they say, Oh, they're fine in school, which is sort of the worst thing that a parent usually wants to hear be when they're not fine at home, actually, schools do need to, even if they're absolutely fine in school, not showing any demand avoidant behaviours or distress behaviours, they still need to be making those reasonable adjustments because it's the impact on the child as a whole. They've got to look holistically at it, not just about their portion and their hours that they have that child for. They've got to look at the rest of you know what's going on for other things for the child. And if they can reduce demands in school, then that will reduce those distressed behaviours at home where they feel safe to release. So that communication between the two is absolutely vital. I know with my son, he's in a special school, he gets taxied to school. So if he's had a difficult morning, um, then the minute I've managed to get me the taxi, I will message his teacher to say, you know what? Anxiety's high, you might need a little bit longer for that grounding time this morning. And then then she'll do the same for me. So you've just got time to prepare. And then that's how you're working together.
Dr Olivia:It's so important. And you know, it's so sad because I, you know, I have a lot of moms who come to me who they try and communicate with the school and then they get blamed that it's their parenting. And it's still going on, you know. It just, it, it boggles my mind, you know, when they're really, you know, oh, well, when he, you know, when when when we finally, you know, pull him out of your car and get him in in there, you know, then then he's okay. No, he's not okay. And that's evidenced by when he gets out of school and what happens afterwards. And it's a common story. But having that communication, and unfortunately, it does happen, I think, more in specialist schools. I do the same thing with my daughter as well, but it's harder in mainstream schools, and it's it really depends on which school you are at in terms of what level of knowledge they have or even willingness to go. So sometimes you have to actually look at is it the right place for my child? And it does come down to that sometimes. Often actually.
Rachel Crutcher:It's very, it's very much down to the ethos of the school, isn't it? Are they willing to work with you and work with your child, or is it their way or the highway type approach? And you really need those schools. I mean, there are some there are some fantastic examples that we've, you know, that we've worked with, we we've gone in and done training for, and they've been really on the ball at knowing exactly what a PDA child needs, and they've got great systems that are set up that if that child comes in elevated, they'll spend some more time in the well-being or the pastoral area before they even think about going in to do learning. And it's having that flexibility, which, as we know, for a PDA, flexibility is really, really important. And we need that flexibility in our school systems for, and it's not just for PDAers, let's be honest, it's for lots of other children as well, isn't it? That might, for whatever reason, be extremely anxious, upset, um, or traumatized by something, then they actually need that space and time. They can't all suddenly start performing at nine o'clock because the bell's gone, the lesson's started, and off we go. It's not gonna happen for some kids, is it?
Sarah Stewart:No, and PDAs in particular really struggle with transitions. So moving from one activity to another or from room to room. So it so again, it's so important that those transitions are managed in a way that the child can cope. You know, getting out of a car, going into school, you know, it can just be too much.
Dr Olivia:Absolutely. Now, your journeys, both from a personal perspective, took you to the PDA Society, which you now are both working at and are are great ambassadors for. Can you take me a little bit through what the PDA Society did for you and what it does for others and how it can be a support to parents out there?
Rachel Crutcher:Yeah, shall I shall I start now? Yeah, yeah. So, as I said, for for me, um sort of my touch point, as I mentioned earlier, to start off with was that six-week parenting course that you know this was pre-COVID, so it was all in person. And um, that really made a difference for me. And it was about connections, connections with people that understood what um I was talking about, and they got it straight away, and nobody else ever had, no other parent, you know, even best friends with kids, they didn't really understand what I was talking about. So that connection, that understanding, upskilling myself, and also different strategies and scenarios and things like that, it all really helped me plan for his different, you know, the different ages and different challenges that we'll we'll have. And then after that, um sort of um getting involved with um different sort of um support groups and things like that. And PDA Society has a sort of closed Facebook groups that um for different ages of children as well, which is really useful. So if you're asking a question, it's it is more, you know, there's it's for sort of tens and unders, or then you're 11s to 17, and then you're adult children as well. So you you're you're asking questions to people that are also going through the same things as you, and that's really, really helpful as well. So yeah, that's how it's helped me personally. Sarah, do you want to?
Sarah Stewart:Yeah, so I received information about PDA and it was just that light bulb that suddenly went off. Um, and you know, the child I was caring for at the time, it just transformed, you know, using those strategies, it just literally made life so much easier for everybody involved. And then I was so keen, really, just to give something back that I started working on the support service. Um, I don't work on there now because I train full-time. Um, but that was an amazing thing, you know, to work on and actually support families. Well, not just families, it was professionals, so teaching professionals, social care, healthcare professionals who wanted to find out more about PDA, but really supporting those families that were struggling, you know, being able to signpost them to additional services or just be an ear on the end of the phone for them when they're having a bad day. Um, and that support service is still very much alive, um up and running, and we'll give you the link to that for the show notes. Um, it's a free service, you just email in and somebody will get back to you. Um, and also we've just launched a training hub as well because we recognise that yeah, we run Zoom courses, we run face-to-face courses, but they're not always at a time that's um helpful, and particularly if you're a working parent or caring full-time for a PDA, we know it can be quite tricky to actually get time away. Um so the Learning Hub, which is linked to the website, um, you can access training modules. Um, there's lots of free of charge information on there, but it's you know something that you can do, dip into when you have the time. Um, and again, there's there's other packages that you can sign up for as well, and professional packages as well. So, Rachel, I don't know if you want to talk about some of the other services that we have, like the consultations or yes, yes.
Rachel Crutcher:So, we also run um consultations, so as part of our professional service, uh the professional packages that we provide for um, like let's use schools, for example. Um, if a school's having particular issues with a with a PDA child, then that we can do a consultancy. So that'll be two members of our training team who are teachers with experience of teaching PDAs, and up to five members of the school staff who are directly involved with that child, and they will give us information ahead of time about the particular issues they're having, and then we'll spend an hour and a half with them on a Zoom call, unpacking everything in detail and trying to give them some strategies, excuse me, strategies to try, um, just you know, so that they can make they can go away from the call then with an action plan of how to help this child um cope with school life better.
Dr Olivia:So it's very personalized. And does does that come out of the the school budget or does the parent pay for it, or how does that usually out of the school budget.
Rachel Crutcher:Usually at school budget. But we have done a couple where the the parent has instigated it, and actually they they tended to be more when the child has had like an EOTIS package. Okay. So they've had um the parents been there, we've done they've had a couple of the tutors there, but then other therapists as well. So it's not it's usually around schooling, but it doesn't have to be. So we you know, but it's it's very intensive and very specific. Whereas, yes, on our training courses we we can answer questions, obviously when they're live, but to have that real intense dig deep into your actual, you know, bespoke uh issues that you're having, then the consultancies are great because it really does focus everyone's minds on that particular child, that particular setting, and what issues um that they're having. So yeah, consultancies um are really, really useful resource. Um, and then of course, we've also um recently launched our own podcast where we try to share as much as we can about PDA um and anything related to PDA. So we've had um parents, PDAs themselves, educators, lots of lots, you know, we've got a huge range of things that are coming up. Um and it's just really trying to put more information out there, exact very you know, this exactly as the your your great podcast, putting information out there that things that will help, actual, you know, practical things that help, and people's experiences and how other people can learn from those experiences. Because it's really important, isn't it? Is making those connections, as I'm sure you find with your podcast. So we have that, and then we have a deeper dive version of our podcast where we go into a lot more detail on each topic, which again, as Sarah mentioned, is on our training hub. So there's a wide range of resources out there that PDA Society provides, as well as all of the information that's on the website, which grows every day. There's so much on that website.
Dr Olivia:Well, it's so great because I know I know a lot of moms feel very alone, and it is a journey to get to the place where you start to understand. And as you've both illustrated today, when that penny drops and then you start to do things differently, and then things actually start to improve. You know, you start to see things go in the right direction. It's it's life-changing for a lot of parents, but before that, you can feel very alone. And also, you know, what works for one parent might not work for another parent, and hearing those stories and getting empowered by that knowledge, then it gives you more at your disposal to kind of work with and and and utilize in your family life. So it sounds amazing, everything that you guys offer that people can get access to both for free or if if needed to get funding for, either within the school or or self-funding.
Rachel Crutcher:Yeah, I mean, we've all we've that that's one of the reasons actually, because we've got our we've, as I mentioned earlier, we've got our Facebook groups where it's that connection between parents who understand each other, who get it, there's been a there's a lot of interaction in those Facebook groups going, I've got this issue. Has anyone else gone through the same? And then within, you know, half an hour later, there's like bang, bang, bang, bang of replies and suggestions and strategies and things like that, which is brilliant. But we've also something new that we're launching in November is our um meetups on our subscribe for the subscribers on our training hub, we're gonna have meetups, um sort of digital meetups, whereby then, you know, we can come and they can come and discuss any issues, sort of, you know, sort of on on a Zoom call, um, and with other parents as well, and obviously with people from the PDA society, but it is making those connections that is the most important, which is really difficult to do in person because you have your friends, yes, you have your other parent friends, yes, but unless they've got a PDA, they're not they don't understand and they might be as willing and as helpful as they possibly can. But unless you live it, it's a different level, isn't it? As you as you know.
Dr Olivia:Sarah's nodding there and smiling. Well, I think you know, it's it it has been really, really great to have you guys on the podcast today. And um, you know, all this information I think is going to really resonate with my listeners as well. And now they have a place that they can go and actually find support. In terms of three top tips that you could give my listeners to take away in their back pocket, what three top tips after listening to this would you give them?
Sarah Stewart:Well, I would say definitely just to first of all, just to echo what Rachel said, and that is find your tribe, find fellow, you know, um people that that understand what you're going through. It's so important for support and a great source of information. Um, the second thing I would say is understand that this is a can't, not won't. Um, I think that mindset shift, knowing that this isn't a choice for the child can help you have empathy um with them. And then the final one, um, it's really about balancing the number of demands you're placing on the individual in line with what their anxiety levels are. So if it's high anxiety, low demand, and reintroduce those demands when their anxiety level can cope with it.
Dr Olivia:Those are three great top tips, I think.
Rachel Crutcher:Okay. Mine would be um connection, make those connections with your child, make those connections that you really understand your child. You know, you take the time that, you know, sometimes when you have a plan of this is what we're gonna do today and it's all going horribly wrong. There's my so my second tip would be accept it, accept that sometimes things aren't gonna get done, but then spend that time making those connections. Uh and my third um tip would be you're doing a great job. Give yourself a break. Stop trying to meet this image that we all have of that perfect parent that we all set out to be when we're our little bundle of joy is given to us. However, that perfect parent doesn't exist. We are per we, you know, we are parenting the best that we can and acknowledge what you're doing well because it's so easy to absorb what everyone else says about you're not doing this and you're not doing that. Actually, look at what you are doing and you're awesome. You're doing a brilliant job.
Dr Olivia:I think every mom needs to hear that. I think so, yeah. Because we don't say it to ourselves, but I think we really should. It should be a mantra. No, you're doing a great job. And you're doing the best that you can, you know, and and that's good enough. Yeah, you know, it is. Yeah. Well, thank you both so much. It's been a pleasure having you. And I will have the link in the show notes to not only uh the PDA Society, but also to your podcast, and so people can get in access with it and listen to to you guys on uh and get your great tips. So thank you both very much. Thank you for having us. Thank you very much. It's been a pleasure. Thank you. Thank you for listening, Send Parenting Tribe. If you would like to receive my early Christmas gift to you, a free live webinar called Keeping Calm during the holidays, which is going to be launched December 9th at 12 p.m. UK time, just click the link in the show notes. Once you sign up, the Zoom link will be sent straight to your inbox. I'd love to see you there.