EP 154: ADHD Brain Fuel: Why Kids Crash with Lucinda Miller

Why do children with ADHD seem exhausted by the end of the day?
 Why do meltdowns often hit after school?
 And why does it feel like they are constantly craving sugar?

In this episode, adapted from a live masterclass inside the ADHD Warrior Mum community, Dr. Olivia Kessel is joined by Lucinda Miller, founder of NatureDoc and author of Brain Brilliance, to explore how brain fuel affects energy, focus, emotional regulation, and behaviour in children with ADHD.

We discuss:

• Why the ADHD brain uses more energy than a neurotypical brain
• How blood sugar crashes drive dysregulation and meltdowns
• Why breakfast matters more than most parents realise
• How nutrition can support ADHD medication and sleep
• Practical, low-pressure strategies that work in real families

This is not about perfect diets or restriction.
 It is about understanding your child’s brain and supporting steadier days.

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Transcript

Welcome And Membership Offer

Dr Olivia 0:05

Welcome to the Send Parenting Podcast. I'm your neurodiverse host, Dr. Olivia Kessel. And more importantly, I'm mother to my wonderfully neurodivergent daughter, Alexandra, who really inspired this podcast. As a veteran in navigating the world of neurodiversity in a UK education system, I've uncovered a wealth of misinformation, alongside many answers and solutions that were never taught to me in medical school or in any of the parenting handbooks. Each week on this podcast, I will be bringing the experts to your ears to empower you on your parenting crusade. Before we start today's episode, I want to quickly tell you about the ADHD Warrior Mom membership. Because if you're listening to this podcast, you're probably already caring a lot. But inside the membership, you'll get weekly group coaching with me, expert-led masterclasses like the one you're about to hear with Lucinda Miller, where you can ask your questions, a growing resource library, and a private community of moms who truly understand life with neurodivergent children. There's also a self-care session every month where we work on ourselves. Right now, there's also a special offer. When you join, you'll receive a private one-to-one coaching session with me, Dr. Olivia, where we'll map out your child, your challenges, and how you can use the membership to support your family and yourself in a way that feels doable. It's only 29 pounds a month, and it's not about fixing your child, it's about supporting you. So you can parent with more clarity, confidence, and calm. And you can cancel anytime. Although I have to say, we haven't had any moms cancel yet. So it really is something for you. So if you're tired of doing it alone, please come and join us. You can find out more in the show notes. It's at SENDparenting.com backslash join. Now let's dive into today's episode with Lucinda. Well, but I want to just say a big welcome to you. And I'm so excited for this masterclass because you are such an expert. And we're going to be talking about ADHD brain fuel. And Lucinda is not only a nutritionist, she's founded Nature Doc and she's written lots of amazing books, including Brain Brilliance, which is literally your neurodiverse toolkit for nutrition. And what I love about Lucinda is her advice is it's it's practical, it's grounded, it's things you can actually utilize. It's not just up here, it's actually things that you can use. So I'm super excited to have her today. So welcome, Lucinda. And you know, I thought maybe you could start us off with explaining in kind of simple terms what's the difference about an ADHD brain and why does nutrition matter more than we sometimes realize?

How ADHD Brains Differ And Why It Matters

SPEAKER_00 3:00

Aha, great question. Hello, Via. So I don't think we really know exactly how an ADHD brain is wired in terms of you know its biochemistry specifically. Um, I think scientists would say that the brain is still something that is they're learning a huge amount about, but they're not there yet. Um, so but from a kind of overall perspective, um generally a neurodivergent brain and body is a little bit more sensitive to um external influences. So that could be noise, it could be light, it could be food, it could be environmental toxins, it could be infections, and essentially we must think of our brains as a sensitive brain. There are obviously different parts of the brain that we know about that play a role with ADHD. So, for instance, the prefrontal and frontal cortex, which is the front of the brain, just behind your forehead. That is the area of planning, executive function, focus, etc. So very, very important part for ADHD. And what's interesting is that is continuing to develop for all children. And for women, for females, you're looking at fully matured at about 21, 22, and for boys, you're looking more like 24, 25. And if you add in a neurodivergence skew to that, then it obviously depending on you know what aspects of neurodiversity they have, but essentially some people have postulated that they could have up to a seven to nine year delay in that development. And this is why so many ADHDers and other kids that also tick boxes for other new parts of neurodiversity are often sort of perceived as slightly immature. Um, and but over time they do catch up, but it just seems a long way away. Um, and so you know, if you're thinking about planning and executive function, that's one of the key aspects of ADHD that a lot of people really struggle with, even beyond the age of 25. Um, but um I think that that's an aspect that you can really work on with nutrition as well, which is exciting. Um, but we've got to just think about this sensitive brain, and I think overall, if you think about that, there's also areas of the brain which are obviously very important for things like working memory and processing. Now, not everyone with ADHD has dyslexia, but an awful lot of dyslexics also have ADHD. And those two aspects are part of why we struggle. So I have ADHD, and um it's interesting, I've thought about this in quite a lot of depth, and I see that the neurotypical person very much thinks linearly, so in a row. So you're given a question, you think about it, you come out with the answer, and it's a straight line. And with ADHD, I sort of see it as we actually can't go in a straight line, we have to go around on the outside, and sometimes it comes in and out and and out, but basically on the outside, this is the exciting bit, this is where we pick up on the interesting aspects, the you know, those thinking out of the box, etc. etc. And then we usually, it might not be straight away, it might be quite a long time afterwards, come to that conclusion at the end. Now, normally that conclusion at the end, whatever that might come out, could be a lot more interesting and actually a better solution in terms of the workplace, etc. But at school, that's what they don't want. They want you to just come up with that tick box because you know those points equal grades. Um, and so that's where it's really hard at school to have that kind of brain. But it's why almost every entrepreneur, every person we really respect in the world that's really done something innovative also has ADHD.

Dr Olivia 7:08

It's so funny. I I remember it at school, in medical school, actually, in pharmacology and having a multiple choice question, and I could see three right answers. And I went to meet with my professor and I explained the logic of my thinking of how they could all be right. And she had to agree with me and give the points to everyone in the class, you know. But that's why test taking was so bloody difficult because there was never just one right answer.

Neural Pathways And Power Of Healthy Fats

SPEAKER_00 7:32

Exactly. Exactly. That's so funny.

Dr Olivia 7:36

So, how can we support these this this kind of lateral thinking, these kind of brains that work a bit differently with nutrition?

SPEAKER_00 7:44

Yeah, so what it is is ensuring that the neural pathways, so those connections in the brain, are really working well. And the way I perceive things, this is I've been looking at I'm I've I was diagnosed with ADHD about 23 years ago. Um obviously I've lived with ADHD all my life, um, but I've really thought about it since that around that point. Um, and it seems to me that these neural connections do struggle. So what happens when your neural connections struggle is you do miss a beat, or your energy does crash, or you know, your brain does go a bit uh kind of foggy or goes far too far. So it's getting that beat, it's getting those connections to actually work in in rhythm. And nutrition can really, really help to ground that and help to make those connections. Um so for instance, um fats, good quality fats. So we're looking at healthy oils, things like olive oil, but also oily fish, so salmon, mackerel, etc., sardines, but also good fats like butter, really good quality butter or creamy milk. All of those things are really, really nourishing for the the lip. So we've got these membranes around all our cells and our neurons. And if they're flexible, then they connect much better than if they're hard. Um, so that is absolutely essential to get the good fats in. And I think so many people as parents were trying to feed our kids and thinking, oh, you know, we've got to give the healthy stuff, we've got to give the broccoli, etc. Yeah, that would be great, but actually you can start with the fats a bit more because they're often attracted to fats. So if you get the right fats in rather than the trans fats or whatever from the ultra-processed foods, then you know you can add, like as they love porridge, you can do the creamiest milk, you can put an egg in, you can add some butter, you can really, really supercharge it.

Dr Olivia 9:48

Yeah, I mean, what kid doesn't like like a creamy ice cream as well, you know, a really healthy, creamy ice cream. Um easier sell than broccoli.

SPEAKER_00 9:57

Yeah, absolutely. So you can make homemade ice cream, you know, like really old-fashioned ice cream have has egg, it has creamy milk or cream, you know, and again, that's really healthy. And you can then add, I know, hemp seeds and things to it too. You can blend it all up.

Dr Olivia 10:12

And get their brains working well. Because it it it it helps to modify also, you know, you're talking there about like synapses and having those fatty sheaths kind of working well between the nerves so that the messages can travel along well. Um, how about like as you were talking there, the overactive brain and the energy that the brain needs and requires? Um, do you find that that's higher in an ADHD brain? Have they done any research on this? I don't know myself actually. Or great question.

SPEAKER_00 10:40

I've only seen a research piece on dyslexia. Okay. Um and I would love it to be replicated specifically for ADHD to see because I see this in ADHD all the time. And this study looked at the dyslexic brain and found that it used up about five times the brain area or brain energy to do one simple task.

SPEAKER_03 11:08

Wow.

Brain Energy, Blood Sugar And Crashes

SPEAKER_00 11:09

So imagine over the day your child is doing hundreds, if not thousands, of simple tasks. And that is why they can be so exhausted by the end of the day. Now, I think a lot of people, you know, talk about masking and all this sort of stuff, and obviously self-controlled, you know, desperately trying to keep self-control during the day because you know, at school you have to behave, don't you? You know, and that's why they can explode after school. Um, and I think it's a brain energy thing is a really big, really big aspect of ADHD. So before I got the diagnosis of ADHD, I'd never actually heard of ADHD till I was, you know, in my when I was about 30. But before then, um, I had was in a state of chronic fatigue, and I just put it down to, you know, poor energy. But then actually, when that ADHD diagnosis came along, I realized it was my busy brain. And you know, we hear about ADHD, and you think, okay, you always have a song in your in your in your mind. You're always thinking something else, not just the task on bind. So you've got lots of things going on in your brain. So it is very, very busy. And I would say that a lot of the reasons why kids get dysregulated, etc., etc., is because of their brain energy just going way up and then way down. So you get that hyperactivity, which can be boosted by sugar sometimes or caffeine in teenagers, um, you know, or stimulant medication, whatever it might be, but then you do have the crash. And you know, it can be absolutely exhausting. This is why so often, you know, whether they're medicated or not, by you know, by the by the evening, they are, you know, just want to be cozy and have a you know under a under a blanket and watch telly or just doom scroll, you know, and we think that's really bad, but actually they're just exhausted.

Dr Olivia 13:00

And understanding that, and I agree with you, like it would be great for them to do a research study on this because it makes like clinical sense that you know, with all that expenditure of thought and action, that you are going to use more fuel, just like if you were driving your car around everywhere, you would use more fuel, but it would be nice to see that. What ways in which can you support through nutrition those kind of, you know, if you you know you're you're kind of on a supercharge your child with enough energy sources to get them through the day to hopefully kind of regulate that energy levels to avoid those dips? Is there a way to do it?

Building A Better Breakfast

SPEAKER_00 13:34

Yeah, to so just go back just on some other research which was done more on children that found very difficult to have self-control, which is essentially the ADHD kit, right? Okay, and what's really interesting is when you force yourself to have a lot of self-control. So you know, I can imagine them putting their hands under their bum, trying not to wriggle and trying to stay still, you know, on carpet time or whatever it might be, and that act of self-control uses up a heck of a lot of glucose. So that's why you often have that major crash after trying to concentrate really hard. And so, children, again, which I've written in Brain Brilliance, is um blood sugar regulation is a really prime aspect of ADHD as well. Um, and so this is what we find is that the children with ADHD are much more reactionary to not just sugar, but carbohydrates overall. And there is, there are kind of statistics to find that neurodivergent folk overall, but including autism and ADHD, are more likely to develop type 2 diabetes, for instance. Um, and you know, there are many, many aspects to that which we could explore at another time, but it's just interesting, it's that blood sugar dysregulation that um is something that we definitely have had to focus on a hundred percent in our family. So four out of five of us have ADHD. And my mum had type 1 and type 2 diabetes, which is quite kind of you know rare, but you know, an interesting combination. So it's something that we've really really had to look out for. But what does that mean? It means that we are more sensitive to carbohydrates and sugar when given on their own. So that could be anything from sweet cereal, you know, dry sweet cereal, through to eating an apple. So either of those things could actually make you feel a little bit lightheaded and a little bit hyperactive in some respect, but also you might crash quite quickly afterwards. Often that crashes within 45 minutes of consuming that food if it's eaten on its own. It could be something healthy, like a rice cake or a piece of toast with jam, because it's all carb. So, what the rule is for us ADHDers is to always combine that carbohydrate with protein and healthy fats. So at breakfast, which is obviously the prime uh um kind of meal of the day for an ADHD, A, because often these kids will wake up quite dysregulated, B, they're often taking their medication and then their appetite's going to be suppressed during the day, so they actually need that nutrition just to fuel them, naturally fuel them through the day. It's not about their focus, it's about everything. Otherwise, the wheels fall off. Um and equally to set those blood sugars off in a good manner. So that could be having a couple of dippy eggs, it could be having some scrambled eggs, it could be having some pancakes or waffles, it could be even I to begin with, you know, I look at this as see if it makes a difference rather than getting too head up about whether it's healthy or not. You know, it could be some bacon, it could be a sausage, leftover sausage from the night before, you know, it just something. Some people even give them leftovers from the night before, like a full meal. You know, they have like a sagna or bolognese or something because actually they find that that serves their children better, especially if they're not having a decent lunch in the middle of the day.

Dr Olivia 17:20

It's interesting because like in Asian cultures, they do have breakfast, they have you know prawns and rice for and that's I I've I've converted to that completely because my daughter's never really liked eggs. So we have prawns, we have chicken, we have, you know, we have like a meal in the morning. Um, and she loves it.

SPEAKER_00 17:35

Yeah, absolutely. So I think you we always kind of look at the British way of doing things, you know, and obviously, you know, we have a lot of Americans we look after as well. So, you know, you look at that kind of aspect and you think this is what we should have, but you just hop over to even from you know our neighbours in France or Germany or wherever, and they're having, you know, some people there's so much emotive language around food, but the most important thing is that children are fed, right? And that their blood sugars are well balanced. So, you know, they will have ham, so they'll have cheeses, you know, at breakfast. It's um so we we just we seem to have just adopted this sort of carbohydrate-driven breakfast.

Dr Olivia 18:16

Almost carbs and sugar-driven breakfast, you know, we we put the two together almost, which is a double whammy, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 18:22

Yeah, so all carbohydrate breaks down into sugar, into glucose. So whether as an apple, a carrot, a piece of white bread, brown bread, they all do, but at slightly different rates. Um, but you can slow that down if they're balanced with the protein and fat. So, as I talked about with the porridge, you know, you can get peanut butter in or almond butter or some seeds, you know, you can hide flax seeds and chia seeds really easily. They they get ground versions. Um, you know, you can put protein powders even in a smoothie. Um, you know, there are lots of ways that because I think, especially with the older kids, they're often on a bus on the way to school, they're leaving very early in the morning, but and they're too embarrassed to have like real food, but they're okay to have a smoothie, for instance. Um, and sometimes you know, you just send them off with you know a wrap with lots of chicken and avocado or cheese or whatever. I mean, you know, it could be so many different things. Um, so I think getting that breakfast really right, and if they do take snacks with them to school, try and get a protein in there too, and it could be chunks of cheddar, it could be a little pot of hummus, it could be you know some cream cheese or something like that. So there are lots of different things you can think about too, just to fuel them because they just need this fuel over the day. So instead of doing the peaks and troughs, they're a little bit more even in their blood sugar over the day.

Emotional Regulation And Key Supplements

Dr Olivia 19:49

And have you found that that can help with kind of the you know, we've we've talked about energy, but also kind of the emotional dysregulation that you touched upon a bit earlier, because I would, you know, say, and I think the mom's also. Listening would also say that's probably one of the hardest things to cope with as a mom is the dysregulation with your child. Does keeping that balance or keeping that sugar levels kind of more in a straight line versus peaks and troughs help with emotional dysregulation? Or are there other things that can help with emotional dysregulation like supplements?

SPEAKER_00 20:21

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So definitely it is a hundred percent helpful. Um, so signs of hypoglycemia, which they might not quite be at hypoglycemia, but you know, that low blood sugar is irritability, you know, lightheadedness, um, exhaustion, you know, all these things that actually, you know, if you're irritable, you're gonna have a meltdown, you're gonna have an emotional outburst, you know, you're gonna have a mood, you know, some sort of mood swing. So it is very much linked. Um, but there are other things that you can do for sure. So magnesium, which is an amazing supplement for ADHD, it really helps with the irritability, the hyperactivity, it helps with sleep, it helps with restless legs, you know, it just helps with that kind of busyness. Um, it helps to make this neurotransmitter called GABA, which keeps you cool, calm, and relaxed, but it also helps to get the carbohydrate out of the bloodstream and into the cell. So when we run our tests, so we run lots of nutritional tests, kind of biochemical tests, to understand exactly how ADHD is wired. And a lot of the time we get this thing called raised pyruvic acid, which suggests that the magn there's not enough magnesium, which means that the magnesium's not drawing that blood sugar into the cells. And so those cells are going, I need sugar. And it's one of the reasons they crave sugar, is because they're desperately trying to budge that sugar into their cells. They actually physically, innately feel they need more sugar. It's more like a crave-a body craving. Yeah, it's it's it's so it's because with ADHD you don't have quite so much self-control, it's immediate. I need it now. Um, so magnesium's really, really good for that.

Dr Olivia 22:08

Um and do you recommend taking it in the morning and the evenings, or do you recommend it getting it from food or a combination?

Medications, Nutrients And Interactions

SPEAKER_00 22:16

I find getting it from food is quite a challenge. Um, just because of the way kids eat and school rules and things like that. You know, you get magnesium from green vegetables. You know, you might get broccoli at school, probably not, and it's lunchtime. You know what I mean? It you know, a lot of kids won't eat greens, nuts and seeds, you know, not on the menu, um, not allowed often. Um, so dark chocolate. Again, they like the dark, there's the milk chocolate, but not the dark chocolate. So you know what I mean. So generally it's quite hard to get enough magnesium in. So I think supplements are really important. I love Epsom salt baths. Those are magnesium baths, they're very soothing, you absorb them really well. It really helps with sleep, it helps with the restless legs, the growing pains, ticks and twitches, all those sorts of things. Brilliant. And then you can also take supplements. So I prefer for them to be taken in the evening because normally they do help help with sleep as well. So you kind of the quality of sleep is again really, really important for emotional dysregulation the next day. A kid that's a kid that's well fed, well rested, is going to be much better regulated than a kid that hasn't slept very well, hasn't eaten very well, you know, is on a kind of sugar roller coaster. Yeah, there's another really good mineral. There's one really other really good mineral for blood sugar called chromium, and chromium really does help with blood sugars, but so does cinnamon. So actually, adding a little bit of cinnamon to the porridge or the pancakes or something could be very helpful too. Um, and then we just quickly, so if you'll talk answer your question in a minute, um other things for emotional dysregulation. I often put alongside the magnesium something called theanine. Um, theanine you find in green tea, but this is the non-caffeinated part of it, so it does need to be a supplement for kids, obviously, because you don't want the caffeine in kids, but it's super calming and it's really, really good. And you can get it in gummies or capsules, um, and you can basically uh give it almost have it in your handbag. And so if they're coming out of school dysregulated, here's a couple of gummies, or you know, when they're you know they're getting dysregulated about homework, you can give them a couple of gummies or in the morning, so they're quite flexible. So I just want to say that that's quite a good kind of one to think about. Um, your question.

SPEAKER_01 24:34

I just wanted to ask because I have um my son takes quite a few um diffsule medication, stimulant medication, and then a anti-stimulant in the evening. So he feels like he's getting over, he calls it being over-medicated if he has too many capsules. So more things like magnesium, and I think I did get, and he refused to have another tablet, the theanine from a health food shop. Can they be ground up or opened up and put into food, or is that not advisable?

SPEAKER_00 25:06

Yes, absolutely. So these are not enterically coated ones that have to reach a certain part of the gut or anything like that. Um, they um theanine's particularly easy to open up and mix into things because it doesn't really taste. Um, the magnesium, some would say, is a little bit bitter, so I'd put it in something sweet like a bit of yogurt or a bit of fruit puree or a little bit of smoothie. It could even just be a shot glass full. It doesn't need to be much. Um, it can make, you know, sometimes certain magnesiums make them go a little bit green, but as long as he knows what's in that, that should be fine. Um we, you know, basically um you can get things like gummies, but they tend not to have quite so much. So I don't know his age, but if you know, over 12s will need the adult dosages, and therefore it's you know, it's it's best to do the capsules and open them up and mix them in. And then, you know, often they get to the time where they think, well, actually, I can handle a few more capsules, it's all right because it's making me feel much better, and actually I just going on holiday or you know what I mean? They just want to or go to a mate's and I just want to have them in a capsule because it's easier. So they usually kind of adapt themselves to wanting to have the capsules.

Dr Olivia 26:18

It's interesting that, isn't it? That it's it's once they know, once they can see the benefit of it, then it becomes easier, especially when they're over 12, to be able to um take that kind of uh autonomous approach to the nutrition as well. But it's it's harder when they're younger, I think, as well. But you know, you bring up a good point, Sophie, which is medication, you know, and how does nutrition interact with ADHD medications and how can food kind of support the taking of ADHD medication and also the issues that arise around appetite and um food.

Magnesium, Omega‑3, Iron And Zinc Deep Dive

Practical Supplement Delivery For Selective Eaters

SPEAKER_00 26:55

It's a lot there, Lucinda, but um well, shall I shall I get cracking on this? Because it's a really good, it's a really good subject. So it's actually very simple. As far as I am aware, and we have checked all the databases that we have available to us, that none of the ADHD medications have any contraindications with the supplements and with food. So you have full autonomy to be able to give both at the same time, except for one thing, and that is vitamin C. And that is not in any formal um research papers or advice, it just happens to be on one website which happened to come up, some doctor found that the vitamin C reduced the effectiveness of methylphenidate, not any of the other medications, but just methylphenidate. So even though it is not uh an established uh medical link yet, I just say to people maybe don't whiz down the ADHD medication with a glass of orange juice, maybe have that orange juice later on in the day, just in case. Because the last thing you want to do, you've invested probably in a private diagnosis, potentially private prescription. This has all become a big thing. You really want it to work the best it can. So just by you know, having it, having it with apple juice or orange juice and it not working as well could would be, you know, would be un really unfortunate. So, you know, and so therefore, that's the only thing that I just say, see how it you get on, because you might not find that it does that to you. It may only be a sample population that that happened to, and it just may not be you. But to start off with, I'd advise that. So there have been lots of studies of putting together the supplements with methylphenidate, more so than the other medications. So things like guoncene have only been around for a reasonably short period of time compared with methylphenidate. So there's a lot more research on that and the stimulants. But it's also the stimulants that tend to, you know, suppress the appetite, cause the irritability, you know, all these things that, you know, guoncoffene tends to be more sedating, I guess, and more relaxing and so forth. So um basically the thing, the studies that I've read are a combination of vitamin D and methylphenidate, and it seems that, well, in the in the in these particular studies, that um a lot of ADHDs are low in vitamin D. And vitamin D is a primary nutrient to help make serotonin and dopamine. So if you don't have enough vitamin D in your body, it's just not going to be quite as effective. So they found that the methylphenidate is more effective if you take it alongside vitamin D. Similar studies have been done with magnesium, with zinc, with iron, so and also with omega-3. So it seems that these nutrients are, which we all know are the key brain nutrients, and the ones I describe in a lot of depth in Brain Brilliance, and also on my blogs and you know, in my newsletters, I do a lot of you know, blogs and so forth. So it's all the information is there. Um but essentially these key brain nutrients all are pieces in the puzzle to help optimise that dopamine. And what we find generally, and you know, this is a sweeping statement, you know, and so obviously everyone's individual, but basically we find that if you get in place magnesium, zinc, etc., etc., all those things, knowing that your child needs them, so this is where our testing comes in, um, then they don't need to take such high amounts of the methylphenidate, it's more effective, there's less side effects. Generally, you know, it just is a smoother ride. Um, and that's what everyone wants. They want it to be a smooth ride. Um, so as I said earlier, magnesium works on about 300 pathways in the body, it's phenomenal for calming, it's for the irritable, hyperactive kind of kid that can't sleep, you know, that kind of very high octane kid. Um, and then omega-3 is the one that feeds the frontal and prefrontal cortex, so that really helps with the executive function and planning and you know, processing and so forth. So that's really key. There's lots and lots of studies on omega-3 with or without methylphenidate. Um, equally, um, iron helps to basically convert tyrosine from protein into dopamine. So, if there's shortfalls in iron, that is going to really impact their ability to make their dopamine and you know, essentially optimize their ADHD. Um, so kids that are very pale tend to be quite solemn and moody, you know, uh, those those kind of kids. Um they're and often they're either vegetarian or they just don't eat any red meat, or it's bolognese once a week. You know, there's just not enough iron going in. That is very much, you know, can be that profile. Um, zinc um is the second most abundant mineral in your central nervous system, iron being the most abundant. So these two are really, really key. And zinc really, really helps with um working memory and processing. Um, it helps with the fussy eaters, it helps with the kids that always get colds and coughs, it helps the skinny kids that have a very poor appetite, especially in the morning. Um and also zinc really helps with those that have quite big outbursts and mood swings and emotional dysregulation. It's a real balancer on the neurological system. So, with all of these in place, and then the vitamin D, obviously, in the winter, you know, um, in the winter it's dark, it's grey, especially in the UK, and we a lot of people with ADHD, including my family, all have very poor vitamin D uptake. So we need a lot more in our systems to actually feel well. Um, and um, every single cell in our body has a vitamin D receptor. So if you haven't got enough vitamin D, then all your cells are going to be slightly on half-mast. And vitamin D, remember, helps with mood because again, it makes those neurotransmitters, but it also brings down inflammation in the body, which is another thing that can be going on. There's a lot of people with ADHD who also have hypermobility and chronic pain. So, you know, so it these all weave in together, but essentially that's the toolbox to have if you really want the methylphenidate to work well. So, my messaging is yes, you can take supplements, except for vitamin C, with your methylphenidate and your ADHD medications, but there are other supplements that can enhance it and optimize it even more. Because so many people say, Yeah, we've tried it, it's kind of okay, but we're not sure if it's really suiting them or not. Or, you know what I mean? We we're just seeing this poor appetite, so they're grazing all evening because they're not having any lunch, or you know, or they're waking up in the middle of the night starving, or what you know, or they're just really, really kind of like it's just not it's not quite working. You can then work around it and think, let's get the nutrition in as a baseline to help support that and try it with that. And if that, you know, and then we can work on other things if if they're still not quite working.

Dr Olivia 34:40

It's interesting because it's almost like you know, you're putting the ingredients, like if you were cooking something, you're putting the ingredients into your child to be able to, you know, add that final ingredient, which is the medication, and have it be effective. Because if you don't have the building blocks, then even though it's stimulating dopamine production, if if you don't have the things to build the dopamine, it's not it's obviously not going to work, you know. Um, so it's it's optimizing the body to be able to let the medication do what it's doing, hopefully, even maybe at a lower dose, as you're saying.

SPEAKER_00 35:09

Yeah, yeah, hopefully, yes. That would be great. Great outcome.

Dr Olivia 35:13

And you know, to Sophie's point, and I I know to a lot of other mothers' points, sometimes it is tricky to get, you know, enough of those nutrients from the food, and that's where supplements can come in. And I know, you know, there's drops that you can use that you can put into a juice or something like that to make it easier to facilitate so that it doesn't feel like a pill and that there are you know ways to get around maybe some of the barriers from your child not wanting to take it.

SPEAKER_00 35:37

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there are so many different ways of doing it, and what we we provide a free service where anyone can email us or Instagram us, DM us on Instagram, and they you can say, My eight-year-old child, I know they need magnesium. How would you get it in? They're very fussy, you know, they'll only have this or that, and we'll work around it, we'll see what we can do.

SPEAKER_03 36:05

Can I just ask a quick question?

SPEAKER_00 36:07

Yes, of course, Jordan.

SPEAKER_03 36:09

My son is he's having his first appointment for ADHD medication on Monday. His nutrition is not great, I'm not gonna lie. It's awful. He's he's also diagnosed with COVID as well. So it's very, very tricky to get anything extra into him. It's a very much age diet. What are the good supplements that you can recommend? Because I have no idea which ones to try him with, um, and it's also getting him to have them. I don't know, they're meant to be completely flavourless, like sprinkles, but I don't know if they're actually any good, and they're quite pricey. So I don't want to spend it out on something that I don't know if it's any good. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00 37:06

Yeah, absolutely. So we see a lot of parents in the same position as you could you give me an example of the foods he will eat.

Tweens, Evenings And Calming Supports

SPEAKER_03 37:18

Um a massive amount of in the morning he will I just finish the last month he will have um sausage and breakfast. And then it has to be the same package every day. And if the packaging changes, that food we draw. The ingredients change slightly. But that's not to say that that's gonna be what does he drink? At the moment, since uh a reasonable drink in in December. But at the moment he is drinking juice. He used to drink your orange juice, your apple juice, he used to drink at one point he's drinking ice water, all of that has gone and it is sold a fruit shape. So it's it's better than nothing, so exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 38:53

Fed is best, right? Okay, yeah. And things can change. So, first of all, those are two things that you can easily get drops into because they're quite strong tasting, right? I would want to start with zinc drops first. Um so um you can just message us and I will tell you exactly which ones I can I would recommend. And you literally put one drop into this into the fruit shoot, and then the next day two drops, and then the next three drops. So you build up really slowly, and they're pretty tasteless. They've got a slight metallic taste, and but it's just so little that I think you could hide it in their fruit shoot, no problem.

SPEAKER_03 39:32

Um sensory seeks metallic tastes anyway, so that should be fine.

SPEAKER_00 39:37

Has he got a bit of picker as well?

SPEAKER_03 39:39

Not diagnosed, but a lot of uh a big oral sensory profile.

SPEAKER_00 39:44

So I think we'd start with zinc. Um, you could probably get the pomegranate iron spray into um again into the fruit shoot because it's got a similar taste profile. Um so I reckon we could probably get those two in quite easily. And then we would just see if those are making a difference before we made other major changes. But I hope that within a couple of months he's going to be more interested in food and maybe bring back some of the foods he was having before or the drinks he was having before. That would be amazing. Yeah. So you've got to make think about little gains to begin with, but um we see this all the time. We um we we we see a lot of kids who will literally only have one drink and one food. So he's doing really well. He's a real champ with what he's having.

SPEAKER_03 40:39

It still makes me feel terrible because I know that what he's having is not great at all, but at the end of the day, it's something and it's better than nothing. We were But it's still in the back of my mind where I'm like, it's not it's not where I want him to be. It's not the foods I want him to be eating, and it's not the drinks I want him to be drinking.

Why Kids Skip Breakfast And What Helps

SPEAKER_00 41:00

But you will be able to make changes. This is where he's at right now. Um, I was talking to the most wonderful dad the other day, um, who happens to have quite a high-flying job in the city, so he's quite senior, you know, he works really, really long hours, and his family live about an hour and a half from London. Um, and he goes, I'm part of the MacD 2am Club, which is essentially his son often wakes up super anxious at 2 a.m. And the only thing that regulates him is a McDonald's. So he pops them in the car, drives into McDonald's, he drives the drives through, gives them his whatever, and then he can then he knows they'll all have a bit of sleep, otherwise, they won't get any sleep. So, you know, this is why my mantra is there's no bad food, because at the end of the day, that is serving them well at that moment. But change can be made over time. So it's it's just like this is where we're at, and we're gonna gradually, gradually make changes, and they will happen. So it's really important to have faith that he's not stuck in this rut forever.

SPEAKER_03 42:09

It's it's good to know that hopefully if he has those supplements, it should make him want to change because I mean he's nine, nearly ten, and ever since he was tiny, tiny, tiny, he has struggled with food and drink and has never had much good food at all. Like not really much nutrition at all. It's just a as far as I'm concerned, age freezing food diet. And it doesn't feel like there's light at the end of the tunnel, like his brother struggled with food when he was younger, he's autistic and he struggled with food, but he you would never know it now at all by like by the other one's age, he was he wanted to try everything, anything and everything, and he is completely different, like the sight of cooked pasta he used to shake and cry at, and now he will try anything under the sun, whereas my other son is stuck.

SPEAKER_00 43:21

So your first son was stuck and he's no longer stuck, so it is possible that seeing that is uh your child can adapt and change, so so can this other one too. But it might just take a little bit more hard work. There will be something else going on, and let's keep on chatting. Obviously, there are multivitamins, but what happens with those multivitamins that you see online? They're great. You know, we we have thought about stocking them. Um, we haven't made that decision yet because of the tastelessness, but actually they have very low levels of each nutrient in there because there's so many. So that's where it's better to go in with some really targeted ones that we know are actually going to switch the nervous system rather than just going with the general one, which he probably will need at some point as well. But you know, let's get his taste buds and his sensory system able to take those slightly different kinds of supplements first.

Junk Food Cravings, Glutamate And Better Swaps

Dr Olivia 44:17

And that's a good point, Lucinda. You have uh on your website, on uh Naturopath website, you have kind of the products that you have researched that you've used in practice that you stand behind. So I know it's my go-to. If I'm thinking of using a supplement, I will go to your website and use it because as you say, Jordan, there's just so much stuff out there and it's so unregulated as an industry that going to someone that you know and trust is really the way to go. So I would recommend direct messaging Lucinda's team as well, but also have a look on the website because it it has validated, I would say, and and tried and tested, which is great. And also I think a really key point to take away is don't do everything at once. I love what you said there, Lucinda. Do one thing and then wait and see before going on to the next thing because we have a tendency, because some of us are also ADHD, but well, if one thing would work, why don't we do seven?

SPEAKER_01 45:14

Can I just quickly ask? Does zinc? I've got some capsules that we haven't opened because he was refusing. Um, does zinc have a strong taste if I open those?

SPEAKER_00 45:24

I would say I don't know which ones you've got. They occasionally are the the drops are pretty tasteless. The capsules can be a little bit bitter. So you again you might want to put it in something simple.

Dr Olivia 45:36

Strong.

SPEAKER_01 45:37

Oh, sweet.

Dr Olivia 45:38

Yeah. And the drops are really interesting. The drops are really easy, uh, Sophie, to get as well. What's interesting is as I progressed with Alexandra with the drops, she could taste that metallic a little bit. And then I think as it normalized and her zinc levels got to the place that it should be, she no longer could taste them. Okay. I don't know if you found that, Lucinda, with people with kids when they bec when it becomes more when their bodies become more in homeostasis with it.

SPEAKER_00 46:02

Yeah, well, actually, often it's the other way around. So they can't taste it, and then one day, three months later, they go, Oh, what's in this? And you go, and they start to be able to taste the metal because they've got enough zinc in their system. So that's often a benchmark. So yeah, but everyone's different. But generally, I think, you know, it'd be you know, one one day we'll go through all her, do lots of tests with her and find out exactly what she does need.

Dr Olivia 46:27

Yeah, it's super interesting. We got magnesium cream actually, and she put it on her hands and she was like, ah, it hurts, it stings, it's burning me, mommy, it's burning me. And I was like, Okay, I put it on my hand, I'm like, it's not burning me. But I think she is quite low in magnesium. So we actually switched to an oral magnesium, and that's worked better. But um yeah, uh in interesting. But uh, you know, each kid reacts differently, each one, each kid's, you know, neuro their biology is different, so you really have to watch and see. And in terms of dosing and stuff like that, that's also you know something that it's great to reach out to you and get that kind of support on in terms of their age, their weight, what you should give, how you should give it. Um, because it's uh there is a way to do these things.

SPEAKER_00 47:07

Absolutely. I just think, you know, I think the thing the roadblocks tend to be just the practical side of things, you know, how much, when, how. And that's the sort of thing that we we do, we provide as a free service because we want, you know, your child to get the benefit. We don't want them sitting in your cupboard going, oh, haven't given them. Didn't know how. It looked all daunting, or whatever it might be. Yeah.

Dr Olivia 47:33

So we've kind of already started this question and answer session without even actually formally calling it out. But um, are there any I've got some questions from some people who couldn't make it today, but um, I wanted to open it up to Jordan and to Sophie as well. To as we have Lucinda here in our masterclass, are there any questions that you would like to ask around food and your children?

SPEAKER_01 47:51

Just when you were um giving the examples with the really irritable hyper kids, which I've got one of those, and you know, he concentrate, he um masks at school, which I know is draining, and he's often very hyper in the evening at home where he feels most comfortable, like really hyper and also very snappy, shouty. Um, maybe I should email you, I don't or text you or what or on the website, but would it be magnesium first before the zinc and the iron? Because you mentioned those three as being You said he's 12? He's 12, 12 and a half.

Closing And Community Invitation

SPEAKER_00 48:28

So when um when kids are going through pre-puberty and puberty, um, especially boys, they need a lot more zinc and magnesium. So I would start, I would be because you've got some magnesium, it sounds like you've got the zinc already. So give those two. For girls, it's usually more iron just because of menstruation. Um, so let's stick with the magnesium and zinc with him. And then another really, really good one for that sort of age group is saffron. Um, and we do stock some really good saffron supplements. Um, and um saffron is very good for that high adrenal state, and very often the dopamine and the adrenaline really, really mounts towards the end of the day and makes them, and this helps to kind of blunt that and bring it down. So um kind of you know, when we think about ADHD and these neurotransmitters, we think about making enough dopamine or making enough serotonin or whatever it might be. Um, but the most important thing is the re-uptake so it doesn't store, because if it stores, that's where you get the irritability, the aggression, the moot swings, etc. Because it's it's almost like they're pent up, they've got just too much in their system and they don't know how to get it out. Um, so the magnesium, the zinc, um, and the and the saffron all help to this reuptake of these um, so they go back into the system rather than getting stored in the wrong place. But equally, laughter, water, so you know, it could be a bath, laughing in the bath, watching a film that's gig, you know, making them giggle, jokes, you know, those sorts of things are really good at bringing down that excess dopamine as well. You know, any kind of like actual games, you know, you're I know you're playing Monopoly or whatever you're you're doing at home, again, really, really helpful. Um, at this time of year it's very hard because it's dark and you know, whatever, but you know, in the in the spring and summer when it's lighter in the evenings, you know, just a walk outside, you know, kicking around ball in the garden or whatever is again really, really helpful, helping them just to kind of ground. So it's not just about supplements.

Dr Olivia 50:42

It's the whole it's the whole it's the whole kit and caboo it all. Jordan, do you have any questions before I go on to the other listeners' questions?

SPEAKER_03 50:51

Off the top of my head, it was the the one that I asked was kind of the the big one. Um to the other ones and if I can add you'll you'll you'll you'll you'll you'll direct message.

Dr Olivia 51:04

So one of the things that um has come up quite a bit is listen is is with kids that don't want to eat breakfast in the morning, what can a parent do when they don't want to eat breakfast?

SPEAKER_00 51:15

So there are three main reasons that we found that why children are not hungry in the morning, and actually adults as well, you know. Um one of them is a high cortisol state. So they wake up, you know, like anxious, worried about school, you know, worried about the day ahead, haven't slept very well, had some bad dreams, whatever it might be. It's the kids that wake up in a start um and are pretty dysregulated on waking. Um, and when you're in a high fight or flight state, your rest and digest aspect of your body shuts down. So that's where working on sleep, working on their sort of fight or flight system overall, not just first thing in the morning, but just like even at night, in during the days, just to bring down that whole feeling of fight or flight really can help. So, you know, those things like you know, laughter, movement, fresh air, you know, exercise, um, you know, laugh, all those things are really important, right? Okay, great. Um, but equally, you know, the saffrons, the theonines, the magnesiums, all those calm y supplements can be really, really helpful. But also calming foods, you know, things like chamomile tea, um, and oats and yoghurt and and cheese, things like that are actually all quite calming and they're quite GABA-rich. Um, so those are really helpful. Um the second thing is just very slow digestion. Often you know that you know they're feeling full quite a lot, they probably have a small appetite, they might be constipated, or just you know that the food's sort of going through their system quite slowly. So if they've had a late meal and they're still full, you know, the next morning, it's because everything's just been too sluggish. So again, we'd work on their digestive juices and digestive tract to help move things through, help to kind of reawaken the gastric juices. Um, that would need a little bit more exploring than probably what we can do today, but it's um, you know, it's still something that can be done and can be helped. Um, and the third thing is going back to the zinc story. So zinc reduces your sense of smell and taste, it also reduces your gastric juice production, um, it helps to extract nutrients from the food you're eating, etc. etc., but it helps with morning appetite. So very often a child that is low in zinc will also have a you know a small or no morning appetite. And yeah, working with a lad at the moment, you know, and he's just not hungry till 11, and he's negotiating with the psychiatrist whether he can take his ADHD meds at 11, and they're going, Well, you know, but you're meant to be doing your lessons from 8:30. So we're gonna we're trying to work that out. But often what happens is, as I said, especially the older kids work this out for themselves. They go, Oh, okay, um, yeah, this is how I felt. And you know, I'm gonna bring it forward because I actually want to maximize my day and I found that it was too stimulating at night, and you know, they have to work it out them slightly themselves. But and often, you know, within a week or so of this sort of change of routine, it becomes much more natural to you as well. Um, so yeah, I think what it is is thinking, leaning to them and just say, okay, so you're not hungry now, but I am going to pack your bag with a smoothie and a sandwich and some snacks, some good quality snacks, so that when you are hungry at 10 or 10:30, whatever it might be, at least you're having something. Because otherwise, they're having no breakfast, very little lunch, because school lunches are quite poor often, um, or rushed or distracted, you know, they're distracted doing other things, or they just don't like it. So often they're not eating properly till four o'clock in the afternoon, which is not a great habit to get into in the long term. So, yeah, so work on those three aspects. But I, you know, zinc again seems to work quite a lot of magic on that morning appetite.

Dr Olivia 55:29

That's fantastic, and that's a great answer. Um, the the last question, because I know we've kept you a little bit longer due to the technical issues, so I appreciate you staying on. The last, very last question is um, and I think this is common, I think, with ADHDers, is how do I stop my child eating so much junk food? All they want to eat is junk food, ultra-processed foods. They'll go in the cupboard and eat all the Oreos, not just like one or two, but like all of them. You know, how it is it, you know, just not having it in the house? How do how do you navigate this desire for junk food? And overeating of it, I suppose she's asking as well.

SPEAKER_00 56:01

Yeah, so you know, binge eating is a big part of many people's ADHD and neurodiversity. Um some people think it's a dopamine fix, um, and it's just giving them something that they need to kind of help stimulate them. Sensory needs. Um, it can also be actually to build up that blood sugar. As I said, it's a bit like that trip to McDonald's at two in the morning. It's just like the blood sugars are so on the ground and so on the floor, you know, they've just got to somehow build them up. So often it's actually that because you're quite impulsive, it's that natural thing that's just gonna help to lift you to an equilibrium that you feel quite a bit more normal again. Um, but the other part of it is that ultra-processed foods are very addictive, they've been created to be addictive. So they're per they're a perfect combination for ADHD because the dopamine hit the addiction side of things, you know. So many ADHDers, you know, do become quite reliant on whether it's nicotine, alcohol, or drugs, or whatever it might be in the long term, or you know, other things, you know, a sport, you know, they're addicted to exercise or whatever it might be. You know, it's it's a thing that we're quite obsessive people very often, right? Because it we know that that thing serves us really, really well. I've got a friend who's with ADHD and she she goes wild swimming. I mean, without a doubt, if she doesn't go wild swimming, she's in bits. She and it's the only time that she feels calm. So it seems like an addiction, but it's just because it's the one thing that helps her brain more than anything else that she's found so far, right? So we are very much drawn to these things because they calm for a moment. It might not be for very long, but it's for enough to feel still. Um, so this addiction side of things is partly because um a lot of the ultraposed foods contain glutamate-rich ingredients. So we've all heard of monosodium glutamate, which is in Chinese food and Pringles and things like that. Um, and um, yeah, that has been associated with hyperactivity and asthma. It's not that's not been proven, but you know, there's an association. Um, and so I think a lot of people have been avoiding MSG, and a lot of Chinese takeaways now say we are MSG free or whatever it might be. However, um MSG essentially makes free glutamate, and free glutamate is puts that GABA, you know, that cool, calm, relaxed side of things out of whack. So they work a bit like a seesaw, glutamate and GABA. So you've got the ultra-processed foods are very rich in free glutamate, and so this is displacing the GABA, so it's kind of making you a bit dysregulated. Um, and so um, yeah, so things like I mean, these innocuous ingredients like yeast extract, citric acid, natural flavourings are all very high in free glutamate. And in the sensitive child, that can really dysregulate them, but it is often why they love them too, because they like that it's a slight high feeling. So it's very, very hard to control it. Um, but I think the important thing is to always have plenty of other snacks available. Because if you've got one drawer with the bad stuff, I don't like that word, but you know what I mean, you know, that the stuff that we would prefer to have as an occasional thing rather than all the time thing, if that's just overflowing and then the fridge is fairly empty, that's what they're gonna do. So, and I so what I used to do was when the kids were younger, because most they've pretty much left home now, but um, you know, I would often leave snacks on the kitchen table. You know, I'd leave out some carrots and hummus or some cheese or some fruit or whatever it might be. So that that was easy access. The other thing is when they Open the fridge is to have it on the shelf immediately in front of their eye so they don't have to look up or down. They literally because of the impulsivity, they will jump grab the thing that's straight in front of them. So if it's something that you know they like and they will eat and they can see it, they'll more likely have it. So it's kind of making sure that there's a lot of good stuff. And again, I don't like the good and bad thing, but it you know it puts it in perspective, is there for them. Um, and um to also say, well, why don't you have if you're hungry, have this sandwich, you know, have some, you know, have some baked beans or whatever it might be, just have this first, then have your snacks. And again, just because they're fuller, they'll have slightly less. So it's I think it's that binging on an empty stomach, or the grazing on an empty stomach. So that will sort of fill you up in one way because you've obviously had quite a lot of calories, but it's not actually giving them the nutrition because those foods don't contain the zinc, the magnesium, the omega-3, and so forth in there. So um your body's sitting there going, I need something else, because it hasn't given me what I need. And so that's why they perpetually keep on eating, because it's almost the body's craving, but it's because it's craving things that you're not actually putting in your mouth. Um, so yeah, that's where trying to think, okay, we're gonna start the day on a really good breakfast, we're gonna have some good snacks. So what we do at home, and we've always done, is we'll do lots of baking at the weekend, make lots of muffins and flatjacks or whatever, and they're all in the freezer. So all the kids need to do is to pull them out of the freezer, or I used to pull them out of the freezer and take them to school, you know, and on the school run they defrost. Um, so there's always something good without having that pressure of needing the packet there and then. I know some kids, you know, are super selective and will only have a certain packet with a certain ingredient, as Jordan described earlier. Um, and that's why we have to do a bit more work with them. But you know, a lot of kids are relatively flexible as long as it's sweet and gooey and sticky, whatever it might be.

Dr Olivia 1:02:09

Those are some fantastic answers and some fantastic strategies. Thank you so much, Lucinda, for your time today. It has been amazing as usual. And I would recommend everyone goes out and buys your Brain Brilliance book. I can see it sitting in the background there behind you. It's a fantastic resource. Um, just practical tips and strategies and advice, and recipes, even more importantly, um, that you can make with your kids, which is lovely. So thank you very much for your time today. We're much appreciated.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:37

So lovely to see you. Thank you so much.

Dr Olivia 1:02:39

Take care. Thank you. Bye. Thank you for listening, Send Parenting Tribe. If you enjoyed this masterclass and would love the chance to ask your own personal questions directly to experts, think about joining the ADHD Warrior Moms. It's not only the masterclasses, it's the group coaching session, it's the support, it's the community, and it's the resources, and it's also about supporting you. You can find out more in the show notes. Take care, and I'll see you next week.