EP 159: When Puberty Hits ADHD: The Perfect Storm

Why does everything suddenly feel harder when puberty begins?

In this powerful and honest conversation, I am joined by Dr Jess Morgan — former NHS paediatrician and now educator — to unpack what is really happening in the brain and body when puberty meets neurodivergence.

We explore:

• Why emotional outbursts are developmental, not defiance
• How hormonal changes amplify ADHD and sensory sensitivities
• The brain science behind mood swings and impulsivity
• Why masking becomes more exhausting in adolescence
• The hidden mental health toll of “trying to fit in”
• Practical ways to support regulation without escalating conflict
• What happens when puberty collides with parental menopause

If you have felt blindsided by the intensity of adolescence — particularly with a neurodivergent child — this episode will help you understand the why behind the behaviour, and offer compassionate, practical ways to respond.

Because this is not about bad parenting.
 It is about brain development, hormones, and learning to tread gently — with our children and ourselves.

The survive and thrive collective

Dr Jess Morgan TedX on reconnecting with your inner child

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Transcript

Welcome And Community Support

Dr Olivia 0:05

Welcome to the Send Parenting Podcast. I'm your neurodiverse host, Dr. Olivia Kessel. And more importantly, I'm mother to my wonderfully neurodivergent daughter, Alexandra, who really inspired this podcast. As a veteran in navigating the world of neurodiversity in a UK education system, I've uncovered a wealth of misinformation, alongside many answers and solutions that were never taught to me in medical school or in any of the parenting handbooks. Each week on this podcast, I will be bringing the experts to your ears to empower you on your parenting crusade. If you're parenting a child with ADHD and feel like you are constantly in a minefield, walking on mines that are exploding, you're exhausted, you're second-guessing yourself as to whether you can even mother your child and wondering why nothing seems to work, you're not alone. I've been there, and so have the other moms who are in the ADHD Warrior Mom membership community. We are done blaming ourselves and we are ready to come together. You will learn in this community evidence-based tools, real support, and a community that truly understands. We have group coaching weekly and we have master classes every month with global experts, and once a month we take care of ourselves with some self-care that is easy to do and gives back and refills your batteries. Because honestly, no one is a perfect parent. And being an ADHD mom is super, super difficult. You need the right support and you need the help to get through the day. So please come and join us. Um link's in the show notes, or you can just go to sendparenting.com backslash join and you can see more details about our membership. Now let's get onto the episode. Today I am going to be joined by Dr. Jess Morgan, and we're going to have a really interesting conversation today. Jess is a former NHS children's pediatrician who spent eleven years in clinical medicine before retraining as a primary school teacher. Unusual. That rare combination gives her a deeply joined up understanding of what children experience in their bodies, their brains, and their classrooms. So today in this episode, we're gonna unpack why puberty can suddenly make everything feel harder emotionally, socially, and sensorally. Particularly for neurodivergent children. We will explore hormones, sensory systems, masking anxiety, and even what happens when puberty meets parental menopause. I'm so delighted to have her as a guest today. Listen on to hear the episode. So welcome, Jess. It is such a pleasure to have you on the Send Parenting podcast today to talk about everything hormonal. And I must say it's near and dear to my heart, you know, nearing or in the menopause myself and my daughter in puberty. Hormones are definitely something that are flying around my household. So, you know, it's gonna be really interesting today to kind of unpick, you know, why hormones in puberty and menopause actually can really impact neurodivergent children and neurodivergent adults. So a lot to unpack today. But before we start on hormones, you have a super interesting background, which I'd love to hear about. Being someone also who hasn't gone quite the traditional medical route, can you tell me a little bit about your journey?

SPEAKER_02 3:36

Um yeah, of course. So I was a pediatrician. I worked clinically in the NHS for 11 years and always kind of aspired to be a children's doctor forever and ever. The career pathway in medicine is very, very linear. That's kind of what I wanted to do since I was about nine. Um, and then life happened, I suppose. I had kids, um, I developed burnout and mental illness, and I kind of crumpled in a bit of a heap and ended up um leaving medicine. So I left medicine in 2019 and I threw myself straight into primary school teaching. So retrained.

Dr Olivia 4:13

Um then the still kids, so you were going, you wanted to stay with kids.

SPEAKER_02 4:17

Yeah, definitely. Kids have always formed a massive part of my life. Um, and perhaps that's just that I relate to children. Uh but I um yeah, COVID happened during my training, and um as as rewarding as it was working in school as a class teacher, I really had a sense that I missed my identity, which at the time was fundamentally a doctor. And I kind of was like, hang on, what I feel really lost without this, and had this pull to go back to medicine. Um, and during that time, I did a lot of work in the doctor's well-being space, thinking about how we can create cultures that help, you know, pediatricians to thrive because then we can show up as the best version of ourselves for the children that we care for. Um, but to cut a long story short, I basically now work in the space between physical health, mental health, and education. I bring a rather unique lens and a rather unique set of skills, but I do lots of kind of public speaking and training, supporting parents, supporting teachers, doctors, um, just to try and make sure that we can really offer children and young people the support that they need and deserve, really.

Dr Olivia 5:33

And you kind of need all three parts of that to actually work. So it, although unique, it's a it's a good set to have, actually.

SPEAKER_02 5:41

Yeah, I mean, I'm still very much finding my feet with it. Um, but I I realized that actually what I for a long time framed as losing the career that I always thought I would have, I now realize actually is something else. And it's I've acquired a whole different set of skills that make me, you know, yeah, they do make me unique and give me a different way of seeing things.

Early Puberty And Mismatch Of Expectations

Dr Olivia 6:04

You know, it's something that, you know, having left the medical profession myself and had different careers and pivoted in my career as well, it's not leaving them behind because all of it is part of you and what you take it forward with, you're still utilizing, is what I really think. So it you wouldn't be in the position to do what you're doing now without that. So um it's nice to meet a kindred spirit and especially to talk about hormones because you know, when puberty hits, you know, it's it's common knowledge that you often see like this shift in behavior, emotions, and family dynamics. And I know when my daughter was around, just before she she was 11, turning 12, I started, you know, to think, is this hormones? But actually, it was more her ADHD that was the issue. And actually, it was really hard for me to unpick, even in my own mind, you know, should I just let this be? This is hormones, or should I actually explore it further? And and luckily I did, and you know, we've gone down that pathway, and you know, she didn't get her period until when she was 13. But it's it can personify um ADHD symptoms, both in people who are in menopause and in in kids. But, you know, can you kind of set the scene for us in terms of how how puberty impacts neurodiversity? And that's a big question, but it is indeed a big question.

SPEAKER_02 7:21

I think for for me, the first thing is to acknowledge puberty hits all children and young people incredibly hard, and it is a massive time of transition. Um, physical changes, but also brain changes, which we can talk about, um, emotional changes. And so for any child, neurodivergent or neurotypical, that is a huge, huge period of transition. Add in neurodivergence and things that maybe felt manageable before can suddenly just become overwhelming, whether that's sensory sensitivities, whether that's executive function, whether that's emotional regulation. There are so many aspects of a neurodivergent brain that are even more sensitive to those hormonal changes. Um, and I think sometimes it's easy as parents to feel like, oh, you know, we're taking a massive step backwards, things have got worse. A very, you know, I was trained with a very medical model of neurodivergence where it's a condition and you know things uh get better or worse. No, actually, if we frame this as a sort of expectation, we know that puberty is going to hit, we know that it's gonna be really difficult, we can put measures in place to really understand our children and young people and support them through what we know will be a tricky patch. Um, yeah, that's kind of how I see it.

Inside The Teenage Brain

Dr Olivia 8:48

And that's, you know, it's it's kind of like that core warning, and then also that ability to frame it, which I think has also been really important in terms of neurodiversity, is to be able to frame your child's brain and how it works and then create ways that work with that brain. In a similar way, what you're saying is when you're going through this puberty period, don't expect it to be all sunshine, rainbows, and unicorns. It's it's gonna be hard. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:10

Yeah, exactly. And and I think with that acknowledgement comes permission for it to be difficult. Permission, I mean, you know, there have been days professionally, personally, wherever, where I have ended up like shutting myself in a cupboard or in the utility room and having a little cry in a like, oh my gosh, this is so difficult. Um, and I think the other thing to mention, and you talked about your daughter, but you know, we often think of puberty being a teenage phenomenon, but actually puberty starts way before the teenage years. And so even the precursor to puberty, you know, the adrenarchy, that starts like seven, eight, nine. And so those hormonal changes that are happening at that point, which are mediated by the adrenal glands and the androgens that are produced, they can create mood changes and behavior changes. You know, think of always around that age can get very boisterous, very active. In a child who has, you know, I don't know, a neurodivergent brain, an ADHD or whatever, those behaviors can become even more exaggerated. And that's long before we've hit 12, 13, 14, whatever.

Dr Olivia 10:19

Which is super interesting because what's also been fascinating for me, and I don't know the science behind it, but you know, my daughter goes to a special school, we have a lot of neurodivergent friends, and they tend to have puberty a lot earlier, like 910. So that means they're in that stage at like what, five?

SPEAKER_02 10:36

Yeah, so there are um there are small studies um that do show exactly that the neurodivergent young people go through puberty um earlier than their neurotypical peers, particularly autistic um children. That that's predominantly the research that I've seen.

Dr Olivia 10:56

Um and there's a and a you know, it's just have noticed actually. Um, but what's so challenging is our children have a have a delay, let's say, in in their you know, executive functioning and a delay in a lot of areas, and then they have an acceleration in the puberty realm, which Well, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:14

And what happens is you then end up with a mismatch where neurodivergent children and young people often look older than their peers because of the physical changes of puberty, and therefore there's an expectation that they are behaving in a certain way, but actually, those differences in executive function, in sensory sensitivities, and whatever it might be, mean that maybe they don't behave in a way that meets those expectations. Um, and so you can get animosity, you can get misunderstanding. Um, a lot of that is is driven by the physical changes of puberty happening earlier.

Dr Olivia 11:49

And then it exactly as you put, it's framing them in the wrong frame for what their capabilities are and where they're at. So it further muddies the water for these kids who then get kind of you know put into this bad behavior um kind of bucket, both by parents and by school, which is hard.

SPEAKER_02 12:06

Yeah, yeah, totally. And and I think also for neurodivergent young people, well, for all young people, when you are going through this change, it's really hard. Like I remember puberty being awful, like for so many reasons. And um I think when you are dysregulated, when you are experiencing overwhelm, when you've spent your whole school day trying to hold it together, um the last thing you need is someone to tell you off, or you need people to understand you, to connect, to really see and value what you're saying. Um, and that hopefully by the end of this conversation, we can provide some insights and um uh maybe a different lens through which to see these behaviors because it's not defiance.

Dr Olivia 12:55

And that's really key. So let's get into the the the wood, so to say, in terms of like what is puberty actually really doing to the brain.

Sensory Shifts And Practical Prep

SPEAKER_02 13:04

So there are a lot of changes that happen, and interestingly, those changes happen beyond the kind of teenage years. It takes probably until the um age of about 25 for the human brain to be fully mature, um, and add in neurodivergence, and it can take even longer. So there's a really important period of what's called myelination. So, myelin is the sort of fatty sheath that surrounds the nerve pathways, and by coating these nerve pathways in this myelin, um the speed of transition of the neurological messages happens much more quickly. And so, therefore, the messages become more effective, the thinking, the executive functioning improves.

Dr Olivia 13:51

Kind of like insulation, if you think of your house, but insulation for your nervous system, which helps conduct those messages.

SPEAKER_02 13:58

Exactly, exactly. And and then there's a period of what's called synaptic pruning, where essentially the brain gets rid of lots and lots of the things that we no longer need. So teenagers no longer need to remember all the words to the episode of their favorite cartoon or or whatever. Um, and so by eliminating some of that information in our brain that we no longer need, again, it's making the thinking pathways much more effective. Um, but there's there's two main areas of the brain that are impacted really significantly. Um one being the emotional center, the limbic system, so that's your amygdala, your hippocampus, and that is a sort of fight, flight, freeze response. It it kind of controls our ability to regulate our emotions, to label our emotions, and also our response to reward and pleasure. And we know that um that's mediated by dopamine. We know the ADHD in particular is kind of dopamine is heavily involved in that, and so we can that that area of the brain, the the sort of limbic system, develops far, far quicker than the prefrontal cortex, which is the other area of the brain that is involved in critical thinking and executive function and planning and decision making. And so you end up in this system where uh young people react really quickly, they they have no ability to control their emotions before they can put on the brakes and kind of go, Oh, I wonder why that's happening, or oh, like maybe I could do this differently. Um, so that that kind of those slammed doors, the loud words, the rude comments, all of that stuff that we stereotypically think of as you know, adolescent behavior, is all because of that mismatch between the very quick development of the limbic system versus the slower development of the prefrontal cortex.

Dr Olivia 15:58

Super interesting. And you think about it evolutionary-wise, it's probably quite good to have your fight or flight being re you know activated early on so that you run away from a predator, you know, um, in terms of evolution. But you know, your your logic and reasoning you know takes longer to kind of develop, but it's not easy to live with, is it?

SPEAKER_02 16:17

100%, 100%. And do you know what? Like, even as an adult, there are times where my emotional regulation system hit kicks in far quicker than I would like it to. And if I engaged my prefrontal cortex a little bit quicker, maybe I wouldn't react in that way.

Dr Olivia 16:35

Story of my life, the story of my life, you know, it's a constant battle. Um and you know, especially I think also with neurodivergent brains, too, because they they tend to go into fight or flight a lot more rapidly than let's say a neurotypical brain as well. So it's almost like a perfect storm for what you're describing.

SPEAKER_02 16:56

Yeah, yeah, definitely. And um also I think the the brain sensitivity to um estrogen, progesterone, testosterone, um, to dopamine, to all of these sort of chemical hormones is different in neurodivergence. And so therefore, you know, I think we're still in the process of you know really understanding this and understanding the differences and the way that you know puberty affects at a neuroendocrine level in terms of the physiology.

Behaviour As Communication At School

Dr Olivia 17:28

Um yeah, it's fascinating. It is fascinating, and but it it also sets the foundation for understanding. Do you know what I mean? Because if you if you look at, you know, someone maybe uh a child, you know, screaming at you, slamming that door, you know, maybe the picture falls off the wall, you know. If you realize that, oh, this makes sense, this is what's going on, it's not like they are trying to really piss me off right now, and then you go into your fight or flight, and then it's it's just a disaster. It helps you with your executive functioning to be able to hear that logic and understand it.

SPEAKER_02 18:03

100%. Let's be really clear. I am sort of like sitting here saying all this. I do not always get this right, and you know, my my daughter is navigating puberty, and there are plenty of moments where I do lose it, and I I do kind of say things that I wish I hadn't said, and I respond, like you say, from that place of fight or flight. Um, I think, and maybe we can talk about this in a bit, the bit that's important is that there's that reconnection afterwards and that moment of recognizing and me saying, Do you know what? I didn't respond in the way I would have liked. Um but yeah, let's just be clear, I am only human and I don't always get it right.

Dr Olivia 18:43

And you know, that modeling is so perfect though. I mean, you talked earlier before we got on this podcast about, you know, if mommy hasn't had enough sleep, you know, watch out, girls, I might be, you know, and and and I do the same thing with my daughter. And then when she, but what's so nice is when she hasn't had enough sleep and has really kicked off, she's like, Yeah, I guess I should have gotten more sleep last night, you know? So then she starts to understand, okay, well, what are the things that are gonna make me more susceptible to it, you know, and and some of them we just say, Oh, it's it's the hormones, you know what I mean? It's it's you just can't cope right now. That's you know, that's okay. She had it actually a really emotional day yesterday, and she said, Mommy, I don't want to go to my theater group. She usually loves her theater group. And I said, you know what? That's okay. Sometimes we just need to get under the, you know, blanket on the couch and watch a rom-com and just tomorrow will be another day. So I think understanding and realizing that our kids are going through this big change in their brains, you know, a lot of the things that, you know, have always been challenging for them, have become more challenging for them. And we've talked a bit now about the brains, but there's also sensory sensitivities that can also flare up. Um and they may always have been an issue, but they've become even worse during this period of time.

Home Routines, Autonomy, And Visual Aids

SPEAKER_02 19:48

Yeah, definitely. So there's two elements to this, I think. There's all of the new sensory experiences that come with puberty, um, whether that is, you know, starting periods, having um to wear period products, um, having like all the kind of facial hair, chest hair, leg hair, having to shave, the vibration of an electric shaver, the smell, the smell, the smell, um, whether it's you know, wet dreams, all kinds of new sensory experiences that all young people have to get their head around. But if you are neurodivergent and you have particular sensory sensitivities, that can be really challenging. And so I think for me, there's definitely work to do way before puberty starts with kind of like normalizing some of these things and helping young people feel prepared for what is going to lie ahead. So that, you know, if um you know a young person gets their period, they are not faced with using a sanitary towel for the first time when they've just like also bleeding, had a terrible day, whatever. If those things have been lying around the house and there's been lots of opportunities to talk about them and they've had a chance to try them on, to touch them, to feel them, maybe to wear them around the house, whatever that might be, that can just try and ease things in a little bit more gently. Um, I really like the idea of like opportunistic learning in the moment. So if you're walking down the supermarket aisle, for example, and you go past the sanitary towels, use that opportunity to have a conversation. You know, if dad's shaving in the bathroom, you know, use that opportunity. Um, because often neurodivergent young people, the way we teach them about puberty is different. Like a big full on conversation or a PHSE lesson at school is not gonna do it. Like, yeah, completely over your head. And I think um those small, short conversations that you spiral back to and that you can have again and again, and you know. Every parent knows their child best, and so they will know how that information can be communicated. Um, but but yeah, so there's almost kind of the side of all of the new experiences from a sensory point of view, and then as you said, there's the everyday sensory experiences that you have, whether that's at home, at school, out and about, and those can become more intense. Whether that is kind of sensory aversion or sensory seeking, I think it's really important to think about both because um we often think, I think, particularly in the context of um autism, uh, of you know, the kid with ear defenders on and sensory, that's the kind of image often. But actually acknowledging that in puberty some young people will have sensory sensitivities that mean that they want to seek out those sensations. So I taught um a young boy who he was an ADHD and he um he often his behaviors in class were kind of what teachers would often refer to as kind of minor disruptions, so you know, pencil tapping and fidgeting, and um and suddenly he started getting much more dysregulated and kicking things and throwing things, and it became more problematic, I suppose, for the teacher. Um and um there were comments around, you know, oh, this just needs teenage just needs sanctions, why why is this not being dealt with? And that sat so uncomfortably with me. Um and I thought, actually, what if we look at this with a different lens? What if we look at this through a sensory lens? Like, let's look for patterns. When is this happening? And realized that it was always in the afternoon, not on a Thursday. Okay, so what happened on a Thursday? Oh, on a Thursday he had PE. And then we looked a little bit more. It's always when he'd been sat at his desk and he had a fidget toy, like a puppet, but he didn't really like it. It wasn't doing the thing because what he needed was physical movement. And actually, when we brought um, there are these programs um go noodle or Danny Go or like movement little videos and things. And when we did some whole class movement, just for two minutes, it completely settled him because he had that opportunity to regulate and to get that sensory input through movement. Um so I think, yeah, it's just noticing and getting to know children, being interested and talking about sensory preferences. It's not just neurodivergent people who have sensory preferences, like everybody has smells they like, touches that there's you know, sensations. And if we can normalize those conversations, then we can lean into conversations with neurodivergent people, we can begin to notice the patterns and put the support in place.

Building Independence And Tolerating Mistakes

Dr Olivia 24:52

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, and and and what I mean, just I'm almost speechless because you know, two minutes of an exercise break during class versus, you know, putting him into detention, excluding him, you know, that pathway, which doesn't work for kids. It's it's really about being curious, understanding the behavior, and then finding a workaround, not just at school, but at home as well. And, you know, because you we talk a lot about movement breaks at home too, but they're just as important at home too, you know, if you're expecting your child to sit down for a meal or or whatever it is, if they need to, you know, you can use all of these principles. It's like not looking at the behavior as bad behavior, but kind of understanding what's underneath it and how you can help to support it. And it makes it just changes, it changes the way you look at things, but we are kind of bred to believe that you must behave and then there's going to be consequences.

SPEAKER_02 25:44

Yeah, yeah, definitely. And I think it I'm a firm believer that all behavior is communication. And if we can take that lens and that approach, A, it regulates me in the moment, and it gives me a bit of an opportunity to take a step back, realize it's not personal. This kid was not kicking things because he was angry at me or he didn't like the lesser, whatever it was. Um, this is him communicating a need. Um, the same goes for um, for example, a lot of neurodivergent young people find the dinner haul very difficult, particularly the transition to secondary school. A lot of particularly masking girls will come home and they won't have had any lunch because you know it's just too much. The noise, the busyness, the bright lights, the people watching them, the social interactions whilst they're trying to eat, and um come home absolutely starving. And one option is to tell them off and to say, why haven't you eaten? And I think as a parent, it's very uh very emotive when your child hasn't eaten. Um, but actually, if we frame that with a sensory lens and if we go, tell me more, tell me why this is difficult for you, and we begin to understand what's going on, we can then kind of go, okay, well, how can we make this better? Can we speak to school? Can we do anything that gives you a five-minute pass so you can miss the cue? Can we actually create a space where do you know what eating at school isn't possible? But how can we create a space so you get home from school and we have the snacks that you like, or that we do things that help you feel able in a sensory safe space to access that nutrition? So, yeah, sensory lens. It's my my favorite thing.

Friendship, Masking, And Mental Health

Dr Olivia 27:36

I love it. And you know, the the whole behavior discussion, I think, is really important because that's where we kind of get into like, you know, the emotional storms, the meltdowns, and you see more of this in puberty. And a lot of the things that we were just talking about, you know, like, okay, we have period pants, we have to clean up the period pants, you know, the amount of I mean, it's been a nightmare in my house, and it's been a nightmare in many mothers' houses that I know of, you know, because it's new, you know, and it's disgusting. And so how do we, you know, deal with when we're trying to teach our children, this is this is what you have to do, this is, you know, you have to take care of these things, you have to shower more, you have to, you know, and the emotional reactivity happens. And you know, you you frame it as a parent as defiance or you know, not taking care of yourself, when actually it's more complex than that. And we we've touched on it a little bit, but let's open up this subject a bit more because I think that's where the real pain point is. I think for mothers, daughters, sons, fathers, this is a big one.

SPEAKER_02 28:38

Yeah. And I think what's really important to remember is that if we imagine a bucket that gets filled all through the days with demands, with expectations. And by the time young people come home from school, their bucket is just so full and so overloaded that if you then say that pair of period pants has been lying that in that sink since yesterday evening, why have you not like that can just be one thing too many? And whereas perhaps a neurotypical person will hear that and go, okay, yeah, that's fine, I'll do it. I know I need to do it. For a neurodivergent child, that that really can just be like the straw that breaks the camel's back. Like, I hate expressions. I'm probably more than likely neurodivergent myself, and I have no idea what that really means, but hey-ho, I use them. Um yeah, it's true, it's it's like that last drop of water before it goes back now. And the and the kind of so what we need to do is find a little tap at the bottom of the bucket to help release some of those pressures before we impose that extra expectation. Um, and how can we do that? There's lots and lots of ways creating safe space, helping regulation. But actually, if we say to, I don't know, uh a young person, you know, you need to be using your deodorant, what does that even mean for a young person who processes things differently, who maybe finds it difficult to start tasks, or who maybe forgets the instructions and can't order them in the logical way that maybe a neurotypical person can? Actually, what can we do practically? There are amazing resources out there with visual aids, with like time almost kind of like a visual timetable of the order in which you do things. And that can be laminated and put on the bathroom wall.

Dr Olivia 30:28

And if you want to go like low, low, like tool-wise, you can just use post-it notes, which are absolutely I, you know, they I use them actually. You know, we sometimes look like it's a serial killer home because you know we've got post-it notes everywhere. But and then you can rip them out, and that's incredibly satisfying that you've done that. So, all right, you've put your deodorant on, all right, you've brushed your teeth, you've brushed your hair, chuck it in the bin, done, you know, and it's it reminds and it also satisfying.

SPEAKER_02 30:53

It feels really satisfying. There's that dopamine here. I mean, um, we use tick boxes quite a lot and the same. And actually, you know, I do that thing of even if I've done something, I write it down just so I can tick the box. Um, but it is that sense of kind of like just some of these demands that we have to navigate during puberty are just one extra thing on top of everything else that a neurodivergent child is trying to navigate throughout the day, and particularly the school day where they are often misunderstood and those needs have not been met. Um, so it's finding the time and it's accepting that, you know, for example, a young boy, well, young man who um, you know, wakes up, wet dream, sheets need changing. It may be that certain days that young person can manage to help change the sheets, but it may be that on that particular day as a parent you recognize that that's not gonna be possible. And just kind of knowing not to even ask and say, today is gonna be a big day, there's so much other stuff to do, we're not gonna put that extra demand on because I can see that's gonna just tip things over the edge. And that's so true.

Dr Olivia 32:11

It's it's it's gauging where your child's at, you know, what it's that fine line between wanting them to become responsible for themselves, but also realizing when they do need that extra help and it is too much. I also think there's a whole level of autonomy that I've realized. The more autonomy I give my daughter and allow her to be in control of things, the better it is, you know. So she gets to choose when she showers. And if she decides not to do it when she decided to, then she needs to rebook that within herself. And you know what? The more freedom I give her, counter to what I first believed, the more she steps up and takes control herself. Yeah. Because she doesn't like to be told what to do. None of us do, you know, but neurodiverse children particularly don't like to be told what to do.

Listening, Coaching, And Space To Talk

SPEAKER_02 32:56

A hundred percent. You lose that autonomy, and in a world where you feel completely out of control anyway, where a lot of people don't understand you. Society, the way society is fundamentally built, doesn't understand you. So to then have to be told when to shower, when to do this, to be bought deodorant, to be told, you know, actually giving choice. So, you know, taking my daughter to the supermarket and saying, look, these are all the products we could buy. Which one do you want? She's then made a choice. Um, she can then choose when to use it, not if to use it, when to use it. Um often I like the I I was working one-to-one with um uh a young autistic boy last year, and I really like the kind of now then or now next communication and offering choice, but not loads of choice, like two things. So you've got this one or you've got this one. And I'm kind of putting a handout flat. Obviously, on a podcast, you can't see that, but you know, offering one alternative uh and then another alternative. And there you are providing almost kind of contained choice. Um, I think neurodivergent people often find choice overwhelming if there's too much of it. But yes, I agree, autonomy is really important.

Dr Olivia 34:16

Yeah, even like within structure. So you're gonna have to bath three times a week. Because honestly, like I'm not going for the full seven, it's just too much. So we're, you know, three is a winning week for us. So when do you want to shower three times this week? And you choose when, you know, and you know, she has surprised me when she's not wanted to do it in the evening because school has been too much, and I'm like, okay, I haven't said anything. Next morning, she set her own alarm, her Alexa alarm. Five o'clock in the morning, she's in the shower, you know, without me saying anything. That's amazing. Whereas, you know, Christmas when I tried to demand that she showered, that went totally differently. And uh wasn't pretty.

SPEAKER_02 34:50

Yeah, it is, it's about picking those moments and knowing and also I think giving them credit. Like they are developing that independence, and that looks maybe different to how we would do things because everybody is different. That's got nothing to do with neurodivergence, that's almost to do with us letting go as parents and letting them detach from us and do things differently, and that in itself is difficult. Um, but sometimes also they have to fail in order to learn. And I think I look at the experience I've had personally and professionally. I think for a lot of neurodivergent young people, failure is very difficult, particularly in the context of rejection sensitivity, dysphoria and stuff. And so providing the opportunities to fail is the wrong word, but to get things wrong or to find things difficult is really important as long as we are providing containment and support so that when the RSD kicks in, we can help them reframe things and help them move on and use it as an opportunity to learn rather than them getting stuck in that really negative space that's really distressing. Yeah, absolutely.

When Menopause Collides With Puberty

Dr Olivia 36:06

And that and that negative thought circle that can go on. But to see, you know, like, for example, when when cooking, when something goes wrong, it's you know, looking back, framing it as you say, differently. And I've done this with my daughter's becoming more independent, and some things are disastrous and some things are wonderful. And it's just taking those small opportunities, like going down the supermarket aisle, to let them have that independence, fail at it, you know, including showering, you know what I mean? Like the first couple of showers and whatever, there's soap over here, it's not out of the hair, and just letting that be okay and zipping your mouth because, you know, unless they want to talk about it, you know, then you can talk about okay, what what could what could be done differently? But it's giving resilience is such an important thing. And as parents, I think, especially in in the world we live in now, we don't give our children enough opportunity sometimes to find their own resilience. We step in too much.

SPEAKER_02 36:57

A hundred percent. That sort of helicopter parent thing that is is in many ways natural. It comes from a place in the best of intentions, isn't it? Yes, um definitely with the best of intentions, but not always the best of results.

Dr Olivia 37:13

Yeah, and you know, that brings me on to my next topic, which is so important, which is mental health, which is in tatters really. Um, and you know, it's multifactorial, and you know, this masking during puberty of kind of what's going on, you know, the the the the discussion over social media, the discussion over parenting, there's so many things that are kind of leading into this, but the the facts are our kids aren't doing well.

Self-Care, Modeling, And Regulation

SPEAKER_02 37:39

Yeah, a hundred percent. And I think um if we think of social communication in in teenage years and in puberty, often when you're at primary school, your friendships are formed based on common activities. You know, you hang out together because you both go to cubs or you go to the same swimming lesson. And as you enter kind of secondary school and things, it's more about common interests. And if you're neurodivergent and your special interest is something that is socially misaligned with your peers, um, you will begin to feel different when you're not kind of, you know, in inverted commas keeping up with the rapidly changing drama that happens, you know, when you're 13, 14, 15. Um and I think there's also lots and lots of unspoken rules at that age, you know, lots of subtle social cues in communication, you know, the eye rolls and the head tilts and the, you know, stuff that says gets said over Snapchat or WhatsApp, um, rather than direct communication. And so for neurodivergent people who naturally maybe communicate more directly or take things more literally, you can begin to get that kind of um jarring uh kind of yeah, misunderstanding essentially between young people where autistic, ADHD people really get a sense of being different. And they might get called weird, they might get caught, you know, that shaming and that internalizing of all of this negativity. You come to believe these things to be true about yourself. And I look back at my teenage years now with a lens that you know, I'm I'm kind of going on this journey and realizing that I probably am neurodivergent. I look at all the bullying and stuff that happened when I was young, and I kind of think, oh my gosh, yes, like I've always felt different. And um, and that is hard. And I experienced mental illness as a teenager and through the whole of my adult life. Um, and so much of that was about trying to conform and fit in with that social norm that I thought I should be adhering to and the masking, and it is absolutely exhausting. And, you know, whether it's autistic burnout, whether it's you know, mental illness, I've seen children and young people on the pediatric ward after self-harm and overdoses, and and it's just devastating, and so often it comes back to this sense of being misunderstood and feeling lonely and isolated and feeling like they have to fit in in a world that you know doesn't really accommodate neurodivergent people. So, yes, it's it's really, really devastating.

Dr Olivia 40:37

And it it's it's hard to support your child while they're going through that, but it's important, you know, and and those levels of communication and being able to talk about it. We have at our house Cafe Kessel every afternoon where we talk about what's happened in the day. She gets a nice big hot chocolate and some cookie that I've baked that we sit down and we eat, and she goes through kind of and then it's an opportunity. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, you know, sometimes she doesn't want to hear anything that I have to say, but it's trying to unpick where, you know, oh, I cried in in in in school today. That was really embarrassing, you know. Well, you know what? Isn't it lucky you didn't punch the girl in the face, which could have equally happened, you know what I mean? And then we laugh about it, you know? Yeah, you know, yeah. That it's okay that we're all human and that we all, you know, respond in different ways, and that actually everyone else is is looking inward more than they're looking outward. But it's so hard, and there's you know, such a I think we don't take the time to communicate as much. And a lot of the anxiety that happens at school, there's no there's no outlet for it. You know, other things that you can do is walking with your child and and walking and talking works. But are there other strategies that you can think of? What would be what would have been helpful to you if you look back to your inner child? And I know you've you've done a TED talk for anyone who I'll I'll put the link to it actually in the show notes and listen to it this morning. But you know, if you could talk back to yourself, because I think if we look back to our own childhoods and we think about, oh, what would have been helpful for me then, it can help us to help our children in a way that we didn't have.

Three Takeaway Tips And Closing

SPEAKER_02 42:05

Yeah, definitely. So I think for me personally, I didn't have the words, I didn't have the emotional literacy to describe how I felt. I just felt this big spaghetti mess of feelings. So this starts like way before puberty, but being able to use books and TV and all kinds of things to give our children the words to label emotions. So it's not just happy and sad, because that's often what we go with, but actually the difference between you know, disappointed and frustrated and angry and being able to really help them identify that. So the autistic boy that I used to work with, he really struggled with emotional regulation. And um I I really started to help him notice those cues in his body and you know, would say things like, Oh, I notice your eyebrows are pointing down. I wonder if you're angry. And that gave him the opportunity to say, Yes, I'm really angry with you. But that was a way in, and that was so helpful, instead of him just lashing out and throwing the table across the room or whatever. So I think it labeling emotions is one. Um, one thing that I do with my daughter, which has been really helpful, um, is she often comes home from school with this sense that the day has been awful and the whole day has been awful, and we get into quite a negative sort of spiral. But actually trying to highlight the small positive things, and now she um she rates each of her parts of her day, so each of the lessons and break and lunch out of 10. And she often just sends me a text at the end of the day with with the scores like French, 6.5, or whatever. And it gives me a really good sense of what kind of day she's had, where the good bits were that we can kind of boost the self confidence and boost the sense of sort of self esteem. And which bits we maybe need to come back to. And I think more than anything when it comes to mental health, it's about being present and making sure that your young people know that you're there rather than prying. Often, if you've had a day at school where you've been trying to hold it together all day long, the last thing you want when you get in the car and you get picked up is how is your day? Oh, tell me about this and rah-rah rah-rah. And I did that for years with my kids. Like I was my way of showing that I was interested, I think. But actually, I've realized now silence and space is much better. And then the opportunity for them to share when they are ready, which is often much sooner than I expect. Um I absolutely love the phrase, tell me more. Um, again, it just gives the opportunity to kind of open up and and share on their terms. And like you say, it's about autonomy. It's um yeah, I think it's about being there.

Dr Olivia 45:08

Yeah, absolutely. And silence is one of the I think it's the biggest lesson I've learned as a parent is that silence is key and letting them lead you in terms of what they want to talk about and not trying to fix things, you know. Um, but just trying to listen, you know, and feedback to them. What you know, I don't know if you're familiar with motivational interviewing. It's something that I've learned in medicine and and and pharmaceuticals, but it's you know, it's so powerful just to reframe what they've said, to ask open-ended questions, really using that kind of coaching style. Yeah. I know lots of other um practitioners have do this and there's lots of courses out there, but it really helps be that coach to your child instead of that fountain of wisdom.

SPEAKER_02 45:49

Yeah, a hundred percent. We often go into that like problem-solving mode because that's often maybe what we do at work or kind of the identity we have, this need to fix things. But I agree, some of the best questions that I've started asking my children in the last couple of years have been coaching style questions, you know, like if you had a magic wand right now, what might this look like? And the answers that you get, and it's just so powerful insight into their world, into how they're thinking, and you realize that the expectation that they've got of this situation is so far removed from the reality of what will ever happen. But actually, the fact that you've realized that is so insightful and so helpful.

Dr Olivia 46:30

Yeah, absolutely. It's getting a window into their brain instead of you know just spouting your knowledge. Exactly. Exactly, instead of imposing your own lens and wisdom on them. And then I think, you know, another final topic that I'd like to discuss is, you know, what happens when menopause hits puberty. And this is totally selfish because I'm I'm in it right now. But it it then it adds a whole other layer because you also have to realize in yourself that the way you're reacting isn't quite right. And, you know, as I said earlier on, it is a time when people do get diagnosed with with neurodiversity that maybe they've they've coped with to that point because of how the hormones are interacting in their body and impacting their executive functioning. Can you can you pick that apart from that for our mom listeners out there in this stage who might have teenage daughters who are in their own puberty hell?

SPEAKER_02 47:20

Yeah. Well, I think there's two things. There's often um we notice our own behaviors in the behavior of our young people, and we start to realize that so many late diagnosed women who have kind of got to that point of going for an assessment because they've seen what's going on with their young people. Um, and then, like you say, there is the hormonal um stuff. And again, I am no expert in this, but the trials and studies that I have read suggest that particularly ADHD women are particularly susceptible to the hormonal changes that happen postnatally, perimenopause and menopause, more sensitive than um neurotypical women. And if that's the case, then like you say, this this create you just age-wise, you know, I'm now 40, I'm probably heading into the perimenopause. I've got lots of friends who are navigating at the moment. And I look at the age of all of our children, well, they are all going through puberty. That's kind of statistically the way things are. And I think for me, the biggest thing has been about patience with myself and honesty and owning my own emotions and kind of having open conversations with my husband, with my family, and just being like, look, I am absolutely exhausted today. I've got nothing left to give. I need someone else to do bedtime or whatever it might be. Um, rather than just dragging myself through it, because that will only end in misery for for everybody involved, actually. Um but it is like my my tolerance, I don't know about you, my tolerance to stress and to noise and like I don't know, just the general chaos of life really fluctuates on a on a monthly basis. And there are points in the month where I can cope pretty fine. And then there are other points where the tiniest things will just like grate and send me like completely into this sort of raging, I don't know, shell of who I would like to be. Um, but but you know, sleep and yeah, I just I think it's but naming it really helps.

Dr Olivia 49:42

And I think, you know, your your, you know, if you talk about your skin being thick, right? When you're young, your skin is can be quite, it can be thicker, like in your your your 20s and your 30s, you know, you can you can go out on a night and drink a couple bottles of wine and go rock up to work and you know be pretty well functioning the next day. As you get, you know, or not sleep that much and go and function, or or not eat that well and go and function. I find as you get older and as you're in the perimenopause or I'm closer to menopause, or I'm in the menopause, um, is you have to be so careful with your self-care. So, you know, I have you know, I have to sleep a proper amount. I don't really drink anymore because I can't deal with it. I have to eat properly. Do you know what I mean? And it's not a nice to have or something I'm doing to lose weight, it's a necessity if I want to be able to manage my child and my life, it becomes a necessity. And when when those things become out of sync, then I find it so much more difficult to navigate where I'm at. Whereas before it was much easier.

SPEAKER_02 50:43

Yeah, that's such a great way of framing it. And um I think the challenge is that often as a parent, we put ourselves at the bottom of the to-do list. And I think this maybe is a reminder that actually this needs to be at the top because you have to be the best, you know, in the best headspace to be able to provide that care and support during this really, really tumultuous time for young people. Um, but prioritizing ourselves and taking the time, whether it's, you know, like you say, sleep, nutrition, whether it's actually, do you know what? So my my go-to thing when I'm feeling like completely overwhelmed is a one-shot latte in a bookshop. And I now know, I know what my triggers are, I know what my signs are. If I if I'm not able to read a fiction book on an evening and I can't concentrate, and my brain is, you know, I know I need to go and I need to just take myself off for 20 minutes on my own. Um, and invariably, because I can recognize it, actually prioritizing that is really helpful. Um, if I fail to pick up on that, it just goes into this sort of spiral of irritability and sleeplessness, and um, and then I sort of crash and burn in a heap five days later. Um, and it takes longer to kind of come out of. So I think it is really about being proactive and giving ourselves permission to take that time to invest in ourselves. This is hard. This is really, really hard. And being kind to ourselves doesn't come naturally, but it is very, very important.

Dr Olivia 52:25

And you know, our children can pick up on that as well, that you're doing it. You know, like I for because the the year of 2026 for me and my daughter is about self-care and about taking care of ourselves, and that's what we've both kind of committed to. So I was given a gratitude journal by someone who wrote lovely little quotes in it, handwritten quotes. It's it's absolutely something's the best present I've ever received in my life. But I sat on it for like three months. So I'm like, all right, I'm going to start writing on it. And I'm gonna, you know, first, you know, bitch a little bit about my day. I just go to bed like 10 minutes earlier and I write it, and then I write about what I'm, you know, what went well. Just just kind of like you did with your daughter with the grading, but for myself. And you know, I've left it out, and okay, my daughter, no boundaries, you know, read it. Okay. And I was like, I haven't said anything too horrible. But what was interesting is a couple weeks into this, I went up to see if she was asleep, and instead she had her journal out and she was writing. She goes, you know what, Mark, this really helps. This helps in the evening to write stuff down. So what's interesting is that by taking care of ourselves, in this way for me, it was just the journaling, it shows our kids what to do too, and when they need to do it. So, you know, it's even though it's for ourselves, it's actually for our kids too, which sometimes makes us more likely to do it, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 53:32

Yes, definitely. The modeling is really, really important because otherwise you just fall into that sort of place of like spieling wisdom and theory, and it's very theoretical and cognitive, you know. And I again I did that for a long time. It's only really in the last couple of years that I've started trying to pay attention to myself and prioritize that. Because before, you know, if you're saying to your child, you know, oh, let's create some strategies to regulate, let's create a calming box, let's have some sensory things in here, let's do this, let's help you and support you to do some writing and some journaling and some reading and some this. And then they never see me doing that. All they see is me flying around the house emptying the dishwasher, having meltdowns and just generally feeling completely stressed about life. Not a great example. Whereas now I do, I do try to model that. I joined a choir a few years ago, which is absolutely glorious, and it's so lovely. My kids like just take great pride in like, oh mommy, we're so glad that you've done that for yourself. Or if I even if I buy myself a pair of trousers, I'm terrible at buying things for myself. My 10-year-old would be like, Mommy, I'm so proud you bought something for yourself. That's so amazing. And I do, I wish it wasn't pride, because it clearly means I still need to do it more. But um but I'm but I'm getting there. They are seeing me doing those things, and hopefully that gives them permission to do that for themselves as well.

Dr Olivia 54:55

Absolutely. And you know, it it starts, it does start with us, and you know, how we you know, how we deal with our hormonal fluctuations, which even if you're not in the menopause, every month is a hormonal fluctuation, you know, whether it's pregnancy or just normal periods or whatever, we we as women are blessed with this lucky, you know, tumultuous, wave-like um thing that we have that we have to go through. And and being kind to ourselves and taking care of ourselves and knowing when to stop, when to treat ourselves is is something that we're not taught as women really well in your generation, my generation. So it's something that we can really pass on to our children, our daughters, that they learn that you don't have to do everything, be everything, never stop. And it's so hard. It is so hard to stop. That's also part of the self-care of this year for me, too, is to just stop because I find it very it's it's either all or crash. And it's very hard to be in that in-between zone. So it's you know, taking those days on the weekends where you don't get out of your pajamas and you just sit at home for, you know, have a do-as-you like day, you know, and do nothing, you know. So it's all of these things are so important to our kids. And it's been so nice to talk to someone who just I I you know, I feel like you're a kindred spirit, and it's been lovely to speak to you today. And I love to end my podcast with what would be three top tips that you would give to our listeners today that they can take away in their back pockets.

SPEAKER_02 56:20

So I think number one, we've probably already spoken about it listen to hear and not to fix. Um yeah.

Dr Olivia 56:31

Almost tattoo worthy, that one.

SPEAKER_02 56:33

Yeah.

Dr Olivia 56:34

I'm not a tattoo person, but I mean it is, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 56:37

No, it is really it's a mantra. It's a mantra of just that silence, that tell me more, I am here, I'm holding space, um, rather than jumping in and trying to problem solve, which is what probably comes more naturally to us. Um, I think number two is celebrate neurodiversity like openly and boost strengths and self-esteem. And there is so much to celebrate about neurodivergent identity. And in our house, we have from a very, very young age read books with neurodivergent, you know, main characters, read books written by neurodivergent authors. Um, and that has become just like part of our life. And so I think if we can empower young people, and this is not just neurodivergent young people or young people, to really like celebrate and accept that, then when issues come up in secondary school when young people feel the need to mask, they've got that sense that actually there is nothing to be ashamed of. Actually, they have so many strengths. Um so yeah, celebrate, celebrate your young people. And then the third thing, it just goes to what we were just talking about, really. It's like tread gently and take care of yourself because, yeah, like I said, this is really, really difficult. And remembering that things pass. A lot of these emotional outbursts are not defiance, they are developmental, and as such, it's a wave that will pass. You just have to cling on for dear life while you're in it and be kind to yourself.

Dr Olivia 58:27

Those are great words to end on. Thank you so much. It's been lovely having you on the podcast today. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you for listening, send parenting trod. If this episode resonated with you, please share it with another parent who might need to hear it. And if you're feeling alone, overwhelmed, or simply need some real support from people who truly understand, come and join us inside the ADHD Warrior Mom community. The link is in the show notes. You don't have to do this alone. Until next time, wishing you a good week ahead.