Strong But Wrong And Still Friends

We break down how to navigate difficult conversations with grace so feedback builds trust instead of triggering defensiveness. Rob and Nick share real stories and simple language shifts that help leaders trade blame for clarity and get to a better result for everyone.
• why avoiding tough talks is often a sign you care
• replacing “dealing with” people with “assisting” people
• speaking from your own experience using I statements
• asking for the other person’s perspective and talking tentatively
• focusing on the other person’s goal and the shared result
• sharing intent so feedback doesn’t feel like judgment
• resetting a conversation when it goes sideways using contrasting
• choosing timing and recognizing the other person’s state of mind
• four practical tips to bring more grace and less blame
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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:20

Welcome to the Leader Mentality Show with Rob Clemens, and we have our good buddy Nick DiStefano with us. Nick, how's it going, bud?

SPEAKER_00 0:26

Life is good, man. Thanks for having me back.

A Preview Of Don’t Dodge It

SPEAKER_01 0:28

And always, well, you know, we're we're continuing our communication and influence series. It's part of our monthly series we've been doing to try to help people with their leadership, uh, growth, and things like that. Today, we're actually gonna be talking about navigating difficult conversations with grace. And uh, you know, I'll tell you, when I think about grace, I'm thinking difficult conversations, they're the hardest things to do. It's so hard. You're you're dreading that conversation that you have to have, but you know you have to have it. Um, you know, I I I heard you have something coming up regarding this. I do.

SPEAKER_00 1:02

It's you know, it's we've set these topics a while ago as we've been talking through what this looks like. And I've actually got an event coming up uh with the Myrtle Beach Area Chamber of Commerce. They do a Chamber Academy. For anyone listening that's a member of the Chamber, they do monthly series. They call their Chamber Academy, and I'm I'm gonna be there with them uh March 25th that morning. We're doing a session called Don't Dodge It. Don't handle the tough conversation like a leader. So it's gonna be a lot of what we're talking about, and it'll be, you know, you'll get some, I guess, of a preview. Some of the things I'll share today are a snippet of what that chamber academy session will be. Um it's free for any uh chamber members that are listening. So the chamber, get on their website and register for it and look, come hang out.

Why We Avoid Hard Conversations

SPEAKER_01 1:45

You're talking Myrtle Beach Chamber of Commerce. I'm a member, I'm I'm I'm gonna sign up for this, man. I like look look, but but the reason this topic is so good is I think we can all relate with this, you know. We we've had an employee, a co-worker, um, a subordinate, a manager, a a loved one, a friend with the marriage. Yes, absolutely. And the reason it's a tough conversation, and we talked about with grace, but the reason it's a tough conversation is we we don't want to hurt people, you know, and and the thing is is that that tells you that you have compassion right off the bat. You know, like that tells you you're probably a pretty good leader if you don't want to hurt people. You want to make people better. So why is it a tough conversation? Because when you're giving guidance, the last thing you want to do is be like, hey, this is something you need to know. This is something that could potentially hurt you. It's hard, right? I mean, have you been in this situation, man?

Replace Dealing With Assisting

SPEAKER_00 2:35

I mean, absolutely. So many times. You know, I actually think about most recently a time with someone that I work with where we had to have this tough conversation. And I knew I needed to approach the conversation, and I wasn't excited for it. You know, no one, I don't think anyone is, you know. I think if we were to ask anyone listening or when we talk about this, you know, I would say, raise your hand if you, you know, you like dealing with difficult conversations. And most people would say, like, no, I don't want to do this. Yeah, avoid it at all costs. Let me avoid this. Yeah. Um, and so for me, and I'll tell you the story here in a second, but for me, the thing that I I try to remind myself of before I have the tough conversation, and even, you know, I would anyone that I'm coaching or talking with is let's try and replace dealing with with assisting. I had a mentor a long time ago tell me that like we should stop trying to deal with difficult people or have deal with having difficult conversations and think about more of how can I assist this person. So if I come into it and I'm trying to do it with grace, I need to approach this person like a person and be graceful and understanding and curious. And so, you know, my individual that I was I was working with, I felt like I was being thrown under the bus. Things that were happening at work that I thought, this person is questioning my ability to get this job done. Um, I think that maybe this person is having a conversation with someone else we work with about the fact that I'm not doing things uh in a timely fashion. I am historically someone that does everything to the last minute. Okay, to the last minute, it only takes a minute. Right, right. It's kind of my moment trip in life. Um, you can't do that with everything, though. And we're working on developing some content, and I felt like I was being questioned. And so I finally came to this person and I said, you know, listen, I'm gonna sound like a jerk here, but like I feel like what's happening is like I don't feel like I'm being trusted or given an opportunity to do this. Like, and this is what I'm experiencing, and I have I like this is how I'm feeling.

SPEAKER_01 4:30

I just kind of so let me let me be clear. You're advocating for yourself in this instance. Absolutely. Okay, I got you.

SPEAKER_00 4:35

So I said this is this is what I'm feeling, but then you know, out of curiosity, so then I I did another another tactic or tip that I would share with people as I said it talk tentatively. So I then said, you know, out of curiosity, like how do you see it? Like what's what's your take on it? I asked the question because I didn't come in and say, you know, I think you're doing this or you're doing that. I basically said, Hey, I'm telling myself this story, this is what I'm experiencing, this is what I'm how I'm seeing this, and I don't know if I'm right, but it's how I feel, and I feel like you don't trust me. So, like, what's going on here? And the funny thing was this person said to me, you know what? I've been doing what I'm doing because I feel like I'm not doing enough. And so I've been going to our supervisor to say, I was telling myself a story, like you're doing everything, and then I need to be doing more. And so um, it was funny. We said we were both strong but wrong. Oh, okay. Strong but wrong. Okay. So we both came into it with like our own stories of what we thought was gonna happen, and we were both completely wrong, and we ultimately got to a place where this person was able to take on some of my workloads so we could work more collaboratively, and I wasn't doing as much of the work, yeah. But also we created some structure so that I didn't wait to the last minute and I could give her some of the work.

Use I Statements And Ask

SPEAKER_01 5:51

So here's a real question, you know, the the the topic is you know, navigating a difficult conversation, which is obviously hard to do in the first place, but with grace, where was the grace in that? I mean, dead seriously, like you know, it was like you're advocating for yourself, but where was the grace within that difficult?

SPEAKER_00 6:06

So I would say the grace comes from, and I think anyone can think about this is when you are graceful with the other person, you see them as a person and you don't immediately come into the conversation and blame or point fingers or say, This is my experience, I can know that I so for me the grace was saying, Listen, this is how I'm seeing it. Like the grace came in the form of the question of saying, you know, am I wrong? Like, what do you see? What's your experience?

SPEAKER_01 6:35

I dig it. I dig it. You know, it's almost like if you if you got the view, like you got a share viewpoint and and kind of understand the viewpoint.

SPEAKER_00 6:41

We like to think about when you know, when I talk about having difficult conversations, there's this kind of like pool in the middle of what we're talking about. Like, here's your experience and my experience, and I could just cannonball into it and be like, screw you, like you're doing this and it's a problem. Sure, sure, sure. Splash in, make a big mess, or I can slowly walk into it and say, Hey, this is how I'm feeling. Do you want to come in here and have a conversation with me about it?

SPEAKER_01 7:01

Yeah, yeah.

Focus On The Other Person’s Goal

SPEAKER_00 7:01

But not everyone does that. We're like, you did this thing and you did it. So I that's another tip. I didn't come in with you statements, it was I did this, okay, and I would feel that versus you, you, you. Right. Um, which again, that's not, I think that's grace. Isn't it? Not focusing blame, right? Not focusing blame and thinking about your experience. Speak I would tell anyone listening, speak from your own experience. You know, we have moments where we think we're right, but we also tell ourselves stories about things. Yeah. I see something and I say, This person's lazy. And I fill it in, right? We could talk days about it, but you know, in that moment, that was how I chose to be graceful. And I had the hard conversation, which ultimately led to a more successful working relationship with this individual. Yeah, you definitely have to. And that's just one type of hard conversation. I'm sure you have your own examples of times where you've had to have a difficult conversation and things that might have worked for you.

SPEAKER_01 7:55

It's like an and I appreciate I appreciate you're saying that. Like the probably the biggest ones I've found, and if and if you've ever been a manager of people and and and a leader of people, you know, forget the manager title, just say a leader of people, right? Uh, there's this thing where the grace comes into if somebody's doing something, a lot of times they're doing it for a reason. And sometimes the thing that's happening with them is they're doing something that's counterproductive to their goal. And so I've always tried to learn to kind of understand the other person's goal and have a result that I that what my conversation will help. Let me give you an example. So we had this guy at one point, and I'd actually, this isn't even a Rob Clemens original. I heard this from another person, and but it was brilliant, and and I've applied it several times in my management career. So I share this with all of you if you think about it. We had a salesperson, and the salesperson had an earring. Now, look, one thing you have to be careful with when people have fashion statements, you have to be very careful, especially in modern society, is saying, hey, you shouldn't wear an earring, okay? You you have to be careful, right? And and also if this person is doing it, they believe that they look good, they believe that it's a style. What I said to this person was, and and I think that I understood their goal. Their goal as a salesperson is to sell more product. If they sell more product, they're rewarded, they get more commission, they get more promotion. There is a reason that they want to do this. So why tell them anything but something that's gonna be good for their interest? And I said, Look, do you want to sell everybody that you can sell? And they said, Oh, absolutely. That's an easy one. That's the result. I focus on the result. You want to sell as many people as possible. And I said, So let me tell you my perspective. You might never sell anybody because you have a cool earring that people aren't gonna buy from you. That guy had a cool earring, so I bought from him. But you may indeed eliminate some buyers because you do have that earring. Don't lose your message because something that you could have prevented. Now, look, at the end of the day, that's an easy conversation. You have a good result that comes on the end. It's not about Rob Clemens saying, I don't believe in you wearing an earring. It has nothing to do with that. It believes in how are you gonna have the best result if you're a golfer or whatever may be the case. If if you could improve, would you want to? Yes, I would want to. Well, here's something that you might want to consider. That's it's worked for me, man.

SPEAKER_00 10:04

Absolutely. I I think what you did though in that is like, again, you're focused on the result. It's like, what are we trying to achieve here? You know, and I think a lot of people work walk into a conversation. Um, and that, you know, in that case, right, that person selling probably also then helps you as well. So it's like before I have this conversation, I might want to ask myself, like, what's the reason I'm gonna have this conversation? Like, what's the goal here for me, for you, for our organization, for our team, right? Like, and we often might ask ourselves that, but often don't actually share with the other person. So if I walk into that and say, hey, listen, my job is to help you be the best salesperson you could possibly be, that's what I want for you, that's what I want for me, it's what I want for our team, right? Would you consider this? Yeah, and that's kind of what you did without like directly like there was intent behind the conversation that was shared. And if you don't share the intent, what happens is people walk into it and they're like, What do you mean? I I shouldn't wear the earring. Yeah, yeah. So yeah. They feel judged or they immediately and we as humans get defensive.

SPEAKER_01 11:05

Yeah, well, you know, that's the base problem. Well, it is natural, and and that's why the grace part of this is the important part, I think. I think having the difficult conversation, it's hard to just have it in general, but if you do it with grace, it makes it easier. That's kind of the point I'm making. You know, if you're gonna come in and say, and you know, try to give them something they can actually do something about. Don't say, hey Rob, you know, I know you want to be in the NBA, but you're only 5'9 and you got no hops. Well, I can't do a lot about that. Right, right. But it but it might have been, hey, Rob, you know, have you ever thought about baseball? There's a lot of great five'foot-nine baseball players out there, and you would be great at it. That's a constructive conversation. And I'm and I'm making it about me. That's I'm kind of being joking, but you know what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_00 11:46

But the reality is you're giving someone something tangible and something to actually like think about and do something with versus just saying, you suck at this. Yeah, right, right. You need to improve this. It's like, wait a minute, hold on. I I don't even know where to go with that. And then it's very easy for someone to get defensive.

SPEAKER_01 12:03

Well, it's it's like you're coming from a spirit of kindness for a seven. Um I felt like don't you know? Don't you don't you feel like there's always a thing when somebody is coming to give you feedback or or constructive criticism? I believe it's in the human nature to sometimes wonder, do they have my best interest at heart? 100%.

SPEAKER_00 12:19

But if you don't but it imagine if people came to the conversation and actually just shared it. Like if you said, hey, I want you to be successful. That's why we're having this conversation. Yeah. But we don't we just assume that people think that we like we won't we question it when someone has the conversation with us, do they have my best interest at heart? And they're probably walking to the conversation thinking, of course that he knows that I have his best interest at heart. I've done all these things to show him that, and if you don't share it in the moment, that can be completely forgotten. Well well, maybe okay, so and So I I I think it the the thought is do we master our stories before or think about the stories we're telling before we walk into the conversation? And I'm sure like we're human, so you've probably had examples where you think you're gonna have a conversation that goes one way and maybe it goes another way, or actually you see this is what this is what you expect, and then the person's like, Oh, but that's not how the reason why I've been late, or you know.

When It Goes South

SPEAKER_01 13:09

Yeah, I I think that your your point of not making assumptions as to why somebody's doing something is very astute. And I think that sometimes probably my experience has been once in a blue moon, if you're having this conversation, even as a in a moment of peace and a moment of grace, um, it's going south on you. Have you ever had that happen? And all of a sudden you're sitting here, you're talking to an employee, and you're like, hey, here's something, or you're talking to a friend or whatever, and it goes south. I mean, um there there's a that is one of the hardest parts, and I don't even know if I have any tips for anybody on that, other than there comes a point where you have to to reset yourself when you see it's going wrong and you see the messages are being received.

SPEAKER_00 13:49

And I think so I I actually do have a tip that I would share with you and everyone listening is that when that happens, it's probably because the person doesn't either feel safe, but they're usually less upset about what you're actually sharing, and they're usually more upset about what you were saying before, which is is this person trying to take me down? So I think it's important to kind of step out of what we're saying and say, Whoa, hold on, stop. I'm not saying that I don't trust you. Yeah, yeah. So we we call it contrasting. I'm not saying that I don't trust you. What I am saying is we need to figure out how we can work together to make this better. Yeah. I it's yeah, I'm not calling like it's like if I were to, you know, say to you know, my mother, Mom, I need you to do this thing because it's it's impacting the way things are going with the family. She's like, you just you you think you can say whatever you want to me and you don't respect me. I'm like, whoa, hold on. I'm not saying I'm not saying that I don't and that's what happens, right? When you have the conversation, the person comes in with like fire, and it's like, you this thing, and and you're you you don't trust me, and you're like, whoa, hold on. I'm not saying that I don't respect you. Wow. I'm I'm gonna just call it out. Like, I'll straight up tell you, listen, I'm you know, I'm I'm not trying to be an asshole here. Like, I'm not trying to be rude or mean, I'm not saying this.

SPEAKER_01 15:08

I am saying this. But but by the time you get to that point, you may be too deep in the world.

SPEAKER_00 15:12

Well, I could it could be, yeah, absolutely.

Mindset Of The Receiver

SPEAKER_01 15:14

You know, because I I do I do feel like that when you when your delivery has not come off, sometimes that you're just not gonna get there. And you may you may have to know when to pull the jet cord, but I will say this like, if I have found, and I've been on the receiving end of that, you're telling somebody something in good faith. Um, I I would say almost on the other side, this has nothing to do with our time. Like I'm just saying though, that if you're the person receiving the comment, also in the same way that the person that's giving the comment shouldn't be making assumptions, don't make assumptions on your own because a lot of times we we will go there and we'll and and and you have to look at your own perspective. What lens am I looking at the world through? Am I looking at the lens as everybody's out to get me? Therefore, if you give me any tip, you're probably just trying to hurt me. Or are you looking at the lens from look, you know, I I do want to get better. Like, look, let me try to hear your perspective. I think there's an element of this that we we cannot control other than we can control ourselves better when you're getting it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:09

You know, and I and I I would say anyone, like, if this is the first time you're listening, go back and listen to some of the other shows. You know, I'm not just saying that to plug the shows because the reality is if you're in some of these conversations and you feel like you're being attacked, maybe you should go back and think about how I can be more humble and more curious, think about where this person is coming from, or or maybe I need to work on my confidence. Or maybe, you know, go back to things like the mindset you have. Like, are you using this conversation in terms of growth, or am I using this to feel like, oh, well, he said I failed? Like, I I just I'm awful at this thing because Rob told me. And it's like what's the mindset you bring into it? That's what you're talking about.

SPEAKER_01 16:47

Well, and I and I feel like that you know when you talk about the grace part of it, let's just go ahead and call it out. If I'm coming over to you and I'm saying, hey, Nick, you know, you know, if you want to get in better shape, here's what you should do, right? Like now, what are you thinking? Now, right off the bat, now now I've already put you on, like, wait a minute, so I'm not good enough. This guy thinks he knows more than I do. How how likely are you to really go, well, I'm I'm really receiving that. Now, if I came to you, I'm no runner, but but like let's just say, hey man, you're you're running the marathon. You know, have you ever thought about doing this? Because I used to run these things and I would get cramps in the middle of the. Have you ever thought about taking some electrolytes or whatever that whatever it is? At that point, you know, I'm I'm making a personal growth experience. I'm saying, hey, this has helped me, uh, it may help you. Again, we're not coming in on the attack. Again, I'm trying to understand your perspective, what what your goal is from my perspective. Who said I'm the expert of anything, right? It this is something I've learned that has helped me along the way, and it may help you, and therefore I'm sharing it with you. But I think that's tough when you set yourself up like I'm looking down on the crowd, telling them what to do. That's a tough one. Unless you're like Michael Jordan teaching somebody to play basketball.

SPEAKER_00 17:56

Right. And I think you know, we we all have things to share. Sure, sure. And the conversations can turn like conversations can be difficult walking into it. Sometimes what you're saying is they can just turn difficult based on how you've approached it or even where the other person's coming from. And I don't know what everyone's experience is until they got to be right in front of me. I don't know how many people cut you off on your way into work this morning. You know what your kids said or your wife's. I don't, I don't know. Um, but then again, that's the grace. It's like you're here in front of me. Let's be people and be honest with each other and be okay with you know having this conversation. It doesn't have to be, you know, and honestly, having the hard conversations, and I think we can probably get you know close to wrapping up with like talking about how to do it, but I think having the hard conversations more often than not leads to positive more than we realize that we don't want to do it, but if we change our mindset going into it and we, you know, have just a few ways to think about doing it a little better, I think doing the hard thing leads to the growth. It leads to the, you know, it leads to better connections and relationships. And I every time I've done it, I come out of the other side, even if it went completely south, and I've learned something. And that's what it's all about.

SPEAKER_01 19:08

You know, I'm gonna say this is what I think it's all about. And I agree with what you're saying it's about. I I've got another one. And then and then, you know, like you said, we have a few minutes left and we'll we'll kind of wrap this thing up and give some tips to everybody. But I'll tell you what I think, and and I believe this is very, very impactful what I'm about to say, um, at least from my experience. Um we don't know what state of mind anybody is in. You know, somebody could uh have had an upbringing in general with very little encouragement, and every time they're getting something, they're only getting trashed upon. We could have somebody who actually is having a very traumatic time in their life, and you're catching up at just the time when they they don't need to hear something bad about themselves. They don't, they just don't need that. So part of this grace thing is gonna be when's the right time to do it? And and if you find that you're in that middle of that discussion and you're making an assumption that somebody's reading you wrong, I'm kind of maybe going back to what I was saying about what about when it's going south. You know, hey, look, honestly, I apologize. I was coming from, I'm coming from an angle of I care about you and I'm trying to help, but but you know, hey, look, I get it, you know, do your thing. I think that sometimes we we let's not make the assumption the other way. Let's not assume that the person is gonna be ready to receive that message. Maybe they're never gonna be ready to receive it. And that's what great team building is about. It's what the interview processes are about sometimes, and um, and that's what building trust amongst the team is all about, right? Yes. So man, that's all about 100%.

SPEAKER_00 20:31

Yeah, and I think you've you've wrapped it up nicely for us to think about the fact that like grace is the key in all of these conversations, and there's a lot of ways to do that.

Four Tips And Final Takeaways

SPEAKER_01 20:42

Well, man, that's cool. You know what? I think we look as we like to do, let's kind of hit up our top, you know. Let's just like we're gonna give you a bite-sized chunk of like a quick thing of some of the things I've taken from the show today, and I've just got my own notes. I'm gonna say one of the first things I would say is, and and I'm gonna start with the with the first thing, it's like understand the person's goal, right? Like, what is their goal? Why is what I'm telling them in this tough-to-have conversation gonna be something that could benefit them? If it's not gonna benefit them, I don't know that there's any reason or benefit us or benefit the team, I don't know that there's any reason to have that conversation. So the reason it's a tough conversation is for that reason. So understand what their potential goal could be, and and if you're gonna have that tough conversation with Grace, understand how that could help them to get to their goal.

SPEAKER_00 21:27

Yeah, I love it. Um, to that point, the one thing for me I hope people will take away coming into their conversations is choose the minds that you come into the conversation with. You're not dealing with difficult people. You deal with things, you assist people, right? I can deal with my pen, with my wallet. These are things, these can be burned out and tossed. I can't really help those things. I can help a person. So I'm gonna bring that mentality into the conversation and just think about. I'm here to help somebody, not to just deal with this difficult thing that I'm coming into with.

SPEAKER_01 22:04

Beautiful, beautiful second tip. I'll get I'm gonna go with a third tip. We're gonna we're gonna try to do, can we do four tips, four tips on how to navigate difficult conversation with Grace? I'm gonna say that um we need to uh not come in with a spirit of blame. That's what you said. Right off the bat, the spirit of the conversation can't be, you know, here's all the bad things about you, and here's what I you you gotta come in with a spirit of openness and and really hopefully come to a better conclusion and a better understanding of what the goal is. So I think that's something that's very good to uh set the mindset right and have a good grace to it. I love that.

SPEAKER_00 22:38

And so speaking of grace, the fourth tip I would give people is um, and it's kind of it's about what we've talked about throughout this, is like get truly give people grace, right? You you know, you don't don't actually judge them. And you know, I I often would tell myself, I want to talk to this person the way I would be talked to, right? Give them the same grace that you want someone to give you, you know, so don't blame them like you're saying. But to do that, you gotta do things like not tell yourself stories about them. And so it's it's it's all the things we've talked about, but you know, difficult conversations don't have to be a bad thing if we go into it with the right mindset and the right skills. And um it's something we're we're always working on. We're humans, we're gonna mess things up and the interesting thing is it's only difficult because you care.

SPEAKER_01 23:25

If you don't care if you're gonna burn that bridge the rest of your life, it's pretty easy. You ever had somebody you're just like, I don't want to ever see this person again. Boom. That's not a difficult conversation, that's a really easy one. You know, so so so if you just ground yourself again with that. Well, hey, love it. Yeah, had a lot of fun with this, Nick. Thanks for thanks for sharing as always.

SPEAKER_00 23:42

You know, we're not calling me out and making it a difficult podcast.

Thanks Sponsors And How To Engage

SPEAKER_01 23:45

Yeah, right, right, right. Well, you know, I wanted to make it uh a difficult conversation with Grace. So uh no, but we do thank you guys for listening. Thanks to our sponsors, Carolina Bays Holmes, thank you to McLeod for always sharing Nick DSTano. You know, you're over there training all the time, so he's sharing that knowledge with the crowd. Uh, we do want to thank our viewers. Please like and share us on your social media of choice. And as we say always, if you have some questions, comments, great show topics, we want to hear from you, mentalityleader at gmail.com. And uh until next time, we'll see you later. Rob Clemens signing out with the Leader Mentality Show, and Mr. DiStefano is here too. We'll see you next time.