Cains Children

In this episode of the Two Trees Podcast, we explore humanity’s calling to image God through cultivation, beauty, and stewardship, while tracing how exile distorts even mankind’s greatest gifts. From Cain’s city to Lamech’s song of violence, this conversation examines the tension between creative genius and spiritual rebellion—and the hope that God will one day restore creation and teach humanity to turn swords into plowshares.

Transcript

Kristen 0:00

Hey, it's Kristen. If the Two Trees has been a blessing to you, please leave us a review on your favorite podcatcher, or visit our website at www.thew trees podcast.org and click the yellow buy me a coffee icon to leave a donation. And now let's join the conversation.

Martin 1:03

Hey, you notice that two trees is alliterative? I'm trying to introduce this. I'll bet you didn't know that. There was some alliteration in the episode.

Jon 1:13

We're in the middle of an argument, and I pushed record, and they didn't let it die.

Rose 1:17

No, we did not. So we are gonna register out there at the end of the episode.

Jon 1:21

Is alliterated a word? The answer is yes.

Rose 1:24

That was not the question.

Jon 1:25

That is the question that I have asked the world. They will all agree with me and know that Rose has not had an answer.

Rose 1:34

Breaking news, the world does not care.

Jon 1:37

Breaking news, people are dying to voice their opinion on this. Anyway, it is alliterated. It has been alliterated. It is even alliterative.

Martin 1:47

If we could record what we do before and after the podcast, people would pay millions for it. I'm saying because it is the most entertaining stuff you'll ever hear in your life. It's definitely the most petty stuff that I've heard in a long time. That's also true. Very true. Which makes me go.

Rose 1:59

People would pay pennies to hear it.

Jon 2:02

Or what I would say. Pay pennies. See what you did there? I did the double B alliterated. People would pay pennies, possibly.

Rose 2:08

Yeah.

Jon 2:08

All right. Yeah. All right. Well, I'm here with Rose Muller.

Rose 2:12

Hello, guys.

Jon 2:13

And with Martin Listener. Hey all. And you are listening to the Two Trees podcast. Martin, tell us about our sponsor for today.

Martin 2:19

The sponsor is so appropriate. Like, I just absolutely love that today's sponsor happens to be Abel's Agriculture.

Rose 2:28

No.

Martin 2:30

So alliterative. No, just wait. Alliterative. Abel's Agriculture has absolutely awesome apples, amazing apricots, admirable avocados, abundant asparagus, and artistic artichokes.

Rose 2:41

No.

Martin 2:41

Of course they do. At Abe's Agriculture. But get it quick because he's going, going, gone.

Rose 2:47

You cannot plan this time.

Martin 2:50

Thanks to Abel's Agriculture for sponsoring the two trees. Indeed, Abel, friend of the show. We talked a lot about his brother for him being a friend of the show.

Jon 2:59

Well, you know, he that's true. Kane is not a friend of the show.

Martin 3:04

He wouldn't like what we have to say. Probably not, but Abel's Agriculture sure did. And so did this next person.

Rose 3:11

Okay, so this is not an actual review.

Martin 3:13

You made it up?

Rose 3:14

No, no, no, no, no. It was sent to us in an email, which is very kind. And this um, wow, from Providence, Rhode Island says, All of you have great podcast voices. I could listen to you guys all day, and I'm learning stuff. That's a plus. God bless all of you.

Jon 3:30

That's very sweet.

Rose 3:31

It is very kind. I actually have been really wanting to read a very old review that simply says, you should let your guest talk more. Oh. But we don't have very many guests these days, so I haven't been able to.

Jon 3:45

The story behind that one is we had a guest on the show who was sharing experiences of her childhood growing up in India. She had a lot of really supernatural encounters. And uh it was one of our earliest ones. And so Jacob and I were really excited. We had a million questions, and our questions definitely drowned her out.

Rose 4:04

And so definitely drowned?

Jon 4:06

Definitely drowned her out. Yeah. And so, like looking back at it, that reviewer was absolutely right. And I learned a lot from that. So that when I do have a speaker on, I actually hear that in the back of my head, John.

Rose 4:15

You should let Jackson speak more.

Jon 4:17

Let them talk.

Martin 4:18

And that's why we need your feedback so we can learn of what we're doing.

Jon 4:22

Yeah, anytime you leave us a review, and actually Buzz Sprout, which is where we host our episodes through, uh, has they used to do this before. They have this little link, and if you click on the info about our website, it will say, uh, you know, leave a comment or something along those lines, send a message. But there was never a way for us to get back to the person. Like they didn't tell us who it was. But now with a new update, we can send you a message back. So I feel bad because a couple of times people ask questions, and I was like, I have no way to know who you are. And I could just start sending to random emails hoping uh that it would get to you, but I uh it wouldn't.

Martin 4:57

And so if you do have a question you want respond to Yeah, we can do it now. Do that or just go to the Facebook page. Type in Two Trees Podcast on Facebook. You'll see our beautiful emblem there. Click on there and follow us, doesn't cost a dime to do that. Uh, it's free. And when you interact with us, we do interact back. That's been uh really fun. Over 1.1,000 people following us on there, so that's a blessing in and of itself, and there's a lot of uh good stuff, including the two ladies that went and got coffee together. Hopefully they hear last week's episode and get back with us because that was really awesome to read those comments.

Jon 5:27

Yeah, I like the idea of people getting together and going over the kind of that's kind of why we put it together, is in the hopes that you know you can use this in talking with people, or maybe you want to teach it yourself, or it just sparks your own thoughts. But I'm I'm for it. Uh we have been super slammed and uh the things have been super busy. Uh Rose has been at the hospital a bunch. He's got a family member who's who's really struggling right now, and so driving back and forth to Columbus. Martin is trying to single-handedly control the world, fix the oil prices, you know, all that stuff that he takes onto himself on a regular basis.

Martin 6:02

Uh my I I am happy to say that my ERA is on the rise. Excellent. Because the boys are starting to hit the ball a little bit better. We're not going to be able to do that.

Jon 6:09

Yeah, he not only is our village chieftain, he is the uh coach of his of the local what what what is the version of baseball that you're playing?

Martin 6:17

It's not just and under ball. But uh yeah, like I said, hopefully I'm the worst pitcher in the league because I want my boys to hit the pitches that I throw to them. So yeah, I'm glad to say my ERA is on the rise.

Rose 6:30

What is an ERA?

Martin 6:31

Earned run average, how many runs you give up for? Okay.

Rose 6:35

I just figured it meant era, like you're in your coaching era or something like that.

Martin 6:39

In that also. Yeah, but that seems like more of uh some that a woman puts on a sweatshirt or something.

Rose 6:45

Well, we know what to get you for Christmas now.

Martin 6:47

In my coaching era, yeah.

Jon 6:49

I can't wait to wear that around. No, we've got a lot going on. Church stuff has been just so much stuff going on. I'm also heading out to the Navajo Nation shortly. Uh so if you guys could be praying for me, just that I do a good job uh teaching out there. I'm I'm looking forward to the work projects we've got scheduled, but especially to teaching in the evenings. So that's coming up. But to turn our attention back to the book of Genesis, we're talking about Cain, my main man, the wanderer who didn't wander very far. Uh and last week we kind of talked about the weirdness, Rose. I know you weren't able to be here, but what we did is we looked at the fact that Cain is told by God to go and wander. And so it says that he goes to the land of Nod, which means wandering. Like he's gone, he's left the presence of the Lord, and he is drifting away. But when he gets there, he immediately tries to plant himself. He doesn't want to wander, he wants permanence, and he didn't get it the way that he wanted it. He didn't get it in the presence of the Lord, and he's drifting further and further from a relationship with God, and we kind of don't get a verse that just spells it out for you. And Cain got worser and worser. Instead, what you get is this picture of his family that becomes increasingly more and more violent. And you might think to yourself, well, you know, that happens as times, but remember, Cain lives an incredibly long time. And so these characters are growing up for literally hundreds of years in this man's presence. What would Cain look like if he doesn't course correct his life if he lives hundreds of years? I mean, you talk about uh going sour, he is going to increasingly become more and more twisted and bent in his heart.

Martin 8:34

I I think one of the things the biggest takeaway I got from last week's episode uh kind of goes along the lines of your sermon about the wisdom and understanding wisdom from a biblical biblical perspective, which is a really good uh idea. But this idea that Cain goes to the land of wandering because God told him to wander, you always say how like the fool oftentimes reminds you of yourself when you're reading the Bible. And I just thought, how much Cain reminded me of myself because growing up I would have done the same thing to my mom. It's like, oh, you want me to go to wander? I'll go to wander, and then you know, twisted and manipulated the command to do something that better benefited myself.

Jon 9:10

Yeah, it's easy to spot yourself, and you may be sitting there thinking, you know, well, I'm not a murderer or I'm not that it's it's an extreme. I understand that, but the present of heart that is bent is what we're talking about here. Because remember, Cain is made to image God. That's his purpose, that's the purpose of all humanity. And so now they're outside of Eden. That calling has not gone away, the responsibility is still there, and Cain is purposefully and willingly choosing to walk in sin. And before we throw rocks at Cain, that's also exactly what you and I do. No one makes me sin. I choose to do evil over and over again, and I have to constantly go back and repent and course correct.

Martin 9:51

If anybody deserved a rock being thrown at them, though probably Cain, right?

Rose 9:56

It's a good thing Abel did not do that thing because he was the one he was the one who could have done that, and he chose not to.

Jon 10:03

That's true. Yeah, Abel, interesting name. Abel kind of means breath. It's the same word as like Havel, which you get in like the book of Ecclesiastes, and so like it's temporary.

Rose 10:12

Vapor.

Jon 10:12

Yeah, vapor, which which kind of brings us to a point. Remember, the the book of Genesis is written in Hebrew. These are the stories that they preserved, and then later on they're writing them down. But what language they were speaking, we don't know. These are the words as they're passed down in their uh in their traditions and in their culture. Uh, but as to like, is that exactly the sound or was there a different word? It's kind of like John can sound different in different languages.

Rose 10:38

Uh Johan.

Jon 10:39

Johan or Juan or those kind of things. Uh Sean, same thing. But we don't know. So don't get too excited about like the sounds. It's not unlocking a magical spell by using this exact uh phonetic key. Instead, what it is, it's the history, it's the story. This is this is what happened, and they're telling each other the stories.

Rose 10:59

Question. So God has created Adam and Eve and mankind. I agree with this. Yes. I'm hanging there to image him. And then Adam and Eve have children. I assume that they had passed on the I don't know, the commandment or the blessing or the whatever to image God to their children. So what do you think that Adam and Eve felt in their hearts when they knew that you know Cain had killed Abel? That's the anti of imaging. And all of us are parents sitting here. So you do it, you do what needs done and you talk to your children, but what they the way they walk is on them. You know, that would be something that would be difficult to live with if one of your first children wait, your first child is a murderer.

Jon 11:47

Yeah, we actually get a glimpse into Adam and Eve's heart at the end of chapter four, uh, at the end of this Lemmic uh Cain saga, and I'm gonna save it if it's okay, Rose. But I think I think we can all assume brokenhearted, like real grief for the first time, not only in the loss of one son, but in the loss of both sons.

Martin 12:09

Um Do you think that was uh something that needed to happen in Adam and Eve's life, though? I mean, if you think about it from God's perspective, God has the same thing happen.

Rose 12:17

Exactly.

Martin 12:18

His firstborn decides to rebel, his first created disorder decides to rebel. And so Adam and Eve then see what they did to God from the flip side as the parent now seeing it from another angle.

Jon 12:30

So that's an interesting phrase, and I want to run it for just a minute because I'm probably going to upset certain people in the podcast audience. I don't believe that God causes evil. I believe that God works through evil to bring about good. And so, did it need to happen? I don't think it needed to happen. But did God lose control because it happened? The answer is no. That when we talk about the sovereignty of God, I see it as not erasing free will, but as sovereign over the free will. And so, even though the darkness may have said to Cain, I'm gonna completely destroy your creation, I'm gonna have you thrown out of Eden, I'm gonna have one kid kill the other kid, and then he's gonna be ejected. I'm gonna mess this up as bad as I can. God didn't look down from heaven and be like, Oh, I lost again. I can't possibly get this back together. He redeems the entire story arc and brings it about.

Martin 13:26

But again, that kind of goes with the the Romans 8 passage where he he uses everything for good. Yeah, it's the idea, it's like, you know, the twisting that happens to Cain is also a value of the redemption that God can provide, even to Adam and Eve. Where it's like, you know, now you have a perspective that you've never had before and you can't get unless you experience it.

Jon 13:46

That's right. And and Paul even brings this up in a really great line. Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid. Like the point isn't to find justifications for our bad actions and then be like, well, God made me do this, or this was obviously the will of God, or it wouldn't have happened. It is a shame that you failed to do what you were supposed to do, and the world would have been better had you not done it. But because you did do it, God will not allow it to be a whole in his creation. He will turn it into something beautiful, even if it means that you are completely uh damned. Like if you never repent and return to the Lord, there is a separation that's there. But it's not he's not going to allow it to remain. This is what the whole concept of the judgment or the day of the Lord is about. We should probably do a whole set on just the day of the Lord imagery in the Bible.

Rose 14:40

I was just wondering if it's a bit of a stretch to say that Adam, through his actions and Eve, introduced death into the world, the spiritual world, like yeah, as they had been created, and then when Cain comes, he introduces physical death into the world. And so right away you see the consequence. Well, like it says, like the wages of sin is death. You know, and then the gift of God is eternal life.

Jon 15:03

And even that line where the Bible talks about Satan and Jesus says he is a murderer from the beginning. He's talking about these stories. Like, what did he do? What did Satan think would happen to Adam and Eve? I don't think Satan was confused. He was trying to pollute and to destroy Eden. And he wasn't thinking, you know, I just really hate God and I really like this Adam and Eve character. I want good things for them. I'm going to encourage them to branch out on their own. He's trying to kill them. The same thing with Abel. Like, why doesn't God, or why doesn't Satan rather tempt Abel? Like the idea is this one pleases God. I need to stop that. I need to destroy that and by consuming Cain. And so we get this downward trend in Cain. He rejects family as an acer. He doesn't see himself as part of a whole. As a matter of fact, his lines to God when God asks him about Abel are really telling, Am I my brother's keeper? Which is kind of a really nasty phrase because remember, Cain is a gardener and Abel is a keeper of sheep. Like he uses this kind of like an insult. I'm nothing like him, and it's not my responsibility anyway. And God says, No, absolutely you're your brother's keeper. This is what's expected, what it means to be human, to be born and to bear the image of God, is to act towards each other the way that God acts towards you.

Rose 16:25

Is the word keeper there the same word where it says to work and keep the garden?

Jon 16:30

Well, that's a good question. Let me look that up later. I will I will find that out. I don't know. I've not looked that up before. We do find though that God, when he responds to Cain, he keeps Cain safe. So that phrase, the idea, is definitely present, even if the word isn't there, the meaning behind the word is. He puts a mark on him and says, you know, wherever you go, you're going to be safe. I will take care of you. And Cain rejects that. He says, you know, it's better that I build walls and just do this myself. He's going to do what is right in his own eyes. And so we're we're dealing really with the question of loving God, which Cain doesn't do, and loving your neighbor as yourself, which Cain doesn't do. And so even though the Torah has not yet been written, the truths of the Torah are in effect. What Cain and Abel knew that remember, I they seem to be performing a ceremony of some kind, and they're together when they're doing this. And so Adam and Eve have instructed their children. They're in the kind of relationship with God is present in their lives. God is still speaking to them. Cain is upset. It says he is driven from the presence of the Lord. That kind of a phrase is typically reserved of like the Ark of the Covenant or like the temple of some kind. This is a unique period of history. And Cain is driven out and he founds his own city.

Martin 17:53

So, real quick, uh Genesis 2, verse 15. Put them in the garden to work and keep it. The word is Samar. And in Genesis 4, 9, am I my brother's keeper? The same word is Samar. Oh, that's really cool. Good job, bros. I've never thought of that before.

Rose 18:11

You are welcome. So I am blessed.

Martin 18:13

I was partially listening because I was kind of going through this, but you mentioned like the law in the Torah was not yet written during this, but it was still in effect. Is that is that what I heard you say?

Jon 18:23

Yeah, it's a truth of what it means to image God. And I think we have it, and we've looked back to the Torah because most of Genesis, like the big chunk of Genesis, is the story of the children of Abraham. It's this restart of the brand. And you're looking at it's going to culminate in Moses, like with the giving of the law. What were they doing before the law? Was it was it that God didn't care about this before? No, the Torah isn't arbitrary, it's a description of a truth that is now laid out literally in stone. You can see it in a way that it's intended to be passed on. Before that, it was family who was explaining this to their children. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

Martin 18:58

Because I mean, if you think of like the Ten Commandments, thou shalt not kill, like were they just killing everybody before Hammer.

Jon 19:06

So when Joseph is thrown into the pit, right, his brothers weren't like, Well, it's a good thing God hasn't specifically told us we're not allowed to kill anybody or else we might get in trouble. The law is written on the hearts of men.

Martin 19:17

And I feel that when uh Paul talks about like the being able to understand that there is a God and a creator just through the beauty of nature. That you know, no one is without blame because you can tell that there is a intelligent design through that. It's kind of the same idea. Like you're saying, there's a natural inclination in man's heart to have an understanding of the rules of creation to an extent. I mean, the big ones, like you shouldn't just go around killing everybody. That's a bad thing. Nobody had to write it down for them to have that understanding. Is it kind of the same idea, like you're saying? Yeah, absolutely.

Jon 19:49

I think that's a good way to say it. And you'll find this cross-culturally. It's not that it came from the Torah, it comes from what it means to be human. And when humans reflect on reality and wisdom and logic, they come to this conclusion, regardless of their culture, that it matters how we treat one another.

Martin 20:07

Right.

Jon 20:08

That's why that golden rule mentality exists not just in a Hebrew world, but all over the place. But you've got Cain, and he's living in a bad place. Things are not going well, he's not getting what he wants. He made an offering to God, it got rejected. And instead of doing what is right in God's eyes, he does what is right in his own eyes. He's resisting what he perceives as an evil with more evil. Now, I wrote a book about this. It's called The Way of Eden, where we are to respond to the darkness, not with more darkness, but by shining light, bringing the fruit of the spirit, being in joy, living a life that is full and rich. This is a way of defeating the movements and the waves of sin that crash against us. So God has equipped his church to resist the darkness. We oftentimes focus on the gifts of the Spirit to the neglect of the fruit of the Spirit. The fruit of the Spirit for me was always like a children's lesson, like little kids, you want them to be sweet and nice and listen. And the longer that I've really thought about this, it's one of the most profound things that's impacted me in my own life as I deal with my depression, as I deal with what it looks like to live in a really twisted uh world. I need to find a way to not become the thing that I am hating. And so what you find in Kane's line is that they never submit to this. They are going to try to control the situation themselves. But Kane's attempt to control his life doesn't lead to abundance to Eden. It leads to a lack. Remember, the ground is no longer giving him food. He's no longer in the presence of his family. The more he pursues this, The further into isolation and into evil he goes.

Martin 22:04

And you may have experienced this in your own life. I mean, I I definitely have. The more you try to take things upon yourself because you're like, okay, now I just got to figure this out. And then once I figure this out, things are going to get better. And then I can snowball it into something that makes more sense. But like, this isn't just that, oh, that's what happened to Kane because you know he was a murderer and then he's on the run and then he's this, that, and the other. Like you mentioned earlier. It's not that, it's not the idea of the action that makes this happen. It's the mentality and the desire of the human being. And then whatever you manifest physically into that will snowball into you furthering yourself. Yeah, I think so.

Jon 22:39

And it especially like in our culture, we have this there was a real popular country song a while back, and it was like Jesus take the wheel, where you just like throw your hands up in the air, and Jesus is going to drive you into wherever you need to go. That's not what I'm talking about. To experience evil and respond to it with the fruit of the spirit is not a Jesus take the wheel kind of thing where you're just not in control at all. You're just letting things go. This is a purposeful response to the darkness that's around you. This isn't something happening to you. This is how you resist the serpent, the darkness. And so it honestly comes down to this idea of dominance or dominion. Remember, God gave Adam and Eve dominion, but in our world, when we hear the word dominate or dominion, we're going to look at that word through the lens of Babel and Babylon. And dominion in that sense means make people do what you want. And honestly, most Christians even seem to think of it this way that when God gave us dominion over the world, that meant they are stuff for us to use, chop down all the forests, eat all the animals, because God's going to burn this world, make a new one. So we might as well wreck the place and then God will fix it afterwards.

Rose 24:01

So working and keeping it is the same as having dominion over it. That's exactly right.

Jon 24:06

It's a calling. How would God treat his dominion? How would he treat the earth that he's walking on that he made? How would he treat the creatures that are around him? How would he treat the garden that he's walking in? Christians should be a global movement of beauty and light and joy and an act of resistance against corruption because we are seeking to look like the God that made us, to image him.

Martin 24:38

And spoiler alert, how God would treat his creation, he died for it.

Rose 24:44

Yeah.

Martin 24:45

And that's that's the twisting that we don't understand. Having dominion means, like you said, I have the power and you do what I say. And it's like God ultimately has the power and could ask us to do anything that he wants, and it would be our responsibility to be subservient to him. But instead, he is gracious to the point that he will die. I mean, the death on the cross is what it says in the New Testament. So it's like somehow we have twisted that word specifically, but just the idea of what it means to be over something or have power or responsibility over something is just so far gone in our society today that it's hard to even understand that that still means dominance.

Jon 25:23

Absolutely. And and I to me, this is an incredibly frustrating thing for me because I I grew up in West Virginia, which is one of the most beautiful places in the world. And this line of thinking is incredibly common. It doesn't matter what you do to the earth because it's just stuff to be used, to be consumed. And I really think that it does. I think even the world around us recognizes that there's something uh beautiful about nature that needs to be preserved and protected, not to like steal a line from the Lorax, but you all need to be caring for wherever you are. If you're renting an apartment, you need to leave it, not having trashed it. If you're owning a piece of property, you need to be making it better constantly. You need to be a force that brings joy and goodness into the lives of people, not just because it's a nice thing to do, but because that's a way to image God. When God came into, for instance, the wedding at Cana, they were completely run out of wine. Jesus says, not a problem. Go fill it up with water. I'm gonna go have a word with the water, and bada boom, bada bing. There's the best wine they ever had. There's, oh, we don't have any food. Well, bring me what you got. I'm gonna make, I'm gonna bring abundance. What Cain shows you is the opposite. Instead, he's living a life of scarcity. Hoard this because you don't know when you're gonna get another one. Don't let other people have it. This is mine. And he builds a fortified settlement. That's what the word literally means. It's it's a place that is designed to keep people out and somewhere where he can wield power. And so he's God is not empowering us to be tyrants, he's equipping us to be servants. And so Cain's family still is called to do this. This is their responsibility. Uh, they don't have an inability to image God. What they have is a rebellious heart. They just aren't gonna do it. We have the potential, but not the desire to. Romans talks a ton about this. That there is no one that's doing this. Unless the Lord works in you to change this, you're going to perpetually tend towards the darkness. And so they could enrich the world that they find themselves in, but they don't want to. They want to enrich themselves. So they are created by God with the ability and uh amazing minds and skill sets. But what are they gonna do with it?

Martin 27:47

I have a question about that, what you're talking about. I feel like in today's world and society, there is a lot of scarcity thinking when it comes to attempting to bless something or create something or develop something. But would you say that the people, I guess, in today's world still have the mentality that they need to be reflecting the way God's nature is, they just struggle to do it because that's a hindrance to what they're trying to do. Compared to this with Kane, there was no inclination that we need to help people at all. That we need to bless those around us. He's a complete flip around. Because I feel like that's one of the largest struggles, at least in in the place that I grew up in, where it's like we'd love to help, but like we don't have enough funds yet. We don't have enough resources yet, we don't have enough time yet. Once we get to a place where everything is comfortable, then we can bless. And that scarcity thinking is still aimed towards ultimately having the goal of of helping somebody.

Jon 28:44

I want to say this really nicely because I don't mean it to come across mean. This is just a reality. I don't know anyone who has gotten so much money that they are now comfortable.

unknown 28:55

Right.

Jon 28:55

Like if you ask someone like, Are you wealthy? the answer is always no. And I have been in people's houses that I would consider to be incredibly wealthy, and they're talking to me about, you know, well, once I hit this mark, I'm going to start being generous.

Speaker 4 29:07

Right.

Jon 29:08

But that shows the intention of their heart is not others first. The intention of the heart is how do I provide for me first? And then once I have everything that I want, the leftovers, I will then distribute to other people. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

Martin 29:20

And so that's kind of the mentality of today's society.

Jon 29:24

And even of today's church, I think that's the mentality.

Martin 29:27

Trevor Burrus, Jr. How is that different, if at all, from Kane building his fortress? I don't think it is different. And that's the that's the question I'm ultimately trying to ask, because I I fear about that all the time, where it's like, man, you know, if only we had a few extra bucks and I could give this person something to eat, or maybe if we only had this and I could give to this ministry or to that ministry or whatever. And then I'm like, man, I'm like a dragon sitting over here on my money. Like, what am I gonna do with this money that's collecting dust?

Jon 29:54

I don't pastor a ridiculously wealthy church. They're just normal people, lovely people. This is an awesome place, and God has blessed me. Um, none of them are just rolling in cash and wondering what to do with all this excess money. But there was a time where there was a family, and this happens regularly. I'm speaking of a specific example where this family was really struggling financially. And I told a couple people they could really use help. And all of a sudden, what happened was there were about 30 people and they all pooled together, and there was an ab they never that family never ate so well in their whole life. Like ridiculous amounts of food are showing up consistently. Bills are disappearing because someone would say, I can't take care of everything, but I can help with this. All of a sudden, that family was given a huge jump because their burdens were taken by people who loved them and were just eager to do it. Now, none of them could have done that on their own. But by coming together, they were Acer to one another. The opposite happens when you put your own needs before anyone's and you think, well, I can't help at all until I can just take care of the whole thing. It is the fact that we are pooling our resources and treasures together that enables us to care one for the other. I don't mean that to be in a mean judgmental way.

Martin 31:10

No, I think it's I think it's an important topic to talk about amongst people and amongst that, because it in today's world, people get all antsy when you talk about money. I I was in the banking world for 10 years. People get antsy when you talk about finances, and it's tough for me because I've lost all emotional value to money because I've been in banking for 10 years. So it's like it doesn't mean that it's the same to me. But it's it's a big idea, understanding what Kane is doing in this process of his life, where he is so self-centered on himself and trying to figure out his life that he just hides himself away in a bunker, basically, which they call a city, to the point where like completely cut off from helping anybody else or having any outward focus in his life whatsoever. It's all about me and how I can do the best for that. And I don't want people to fall victim into that, but I think a scarcity mentality is maybe the first step into falling into that trap.

Jon 32:03

I think that's that's huge. The first time that I remember really thinking about this was in in high school. And I'm on step five of that process, so don't worry about that. No, but it's true. Like there was a guy and he had this really nice guitar. I was just learning how to play guitar, and like to me, like I knew this was an expensive guitar, and it was really nice. And I could tell, like, if it was me, I wouldn't let anyone touch this thing ever. It was a treasure. And he had it sitting up on the stage, and there was a little kid who came over and knocked it over and it broke. Like the neck snapped on this guitar, and that kid was just bawling, so upset. And like, to me, like I'm thinking, you're a goner. Like, as soon as he finds out that that treasure is not broken, and that guy came in and he looked at the guitar and he looked at the kid, and he picked up that little kid and knocked it over, and he was telling the little kid he said, it's just a thing, it's okay, it's just a thing. And I remember thinking, that is the exact opposite of what I would have responded, but he brought comfort to that child and to the parents of that child and to the family. Now that ended well. There was a group of people there who pulled their again their resources and they replaced it. They got him a nicer one than what he had. But I genuinely saw that man was not at all concerned about the loss of this guitar that he genuinely loved, but it to him it was a thing. The child was of infinite more importance.

Rose 33:24

So it's what the topic that we're moving towards here, and this might be based on last week when you you all recorded, is that Cain takes his wandering and stops it and like hunkers down and and just keeps all of his like smog on his treasure horse. But my I guess my thought, it's not even a question, is that what did he actually have to offer anyway? Like Abraham is called to wander, and he says that he'll be through him all the nations of the world will be blessed. But that's Abraham, and he acted in faith, and he's he's recorded as having acted in faith. But Cain is already a murderer and freaked out and doesn't really have a lot to offer anyway. And I'm not saying so seriously.

Jon 34:06

There's a lot of series off from the world, but he he seems to have developed a way to still be a power that people are eager to serve him. You're gonna see that in a minute with one of the names of these kids that you're going to see.

Martin 34:20

But I think the the story you just told about the guitar and the kid, the guy seeing that the kid is infinitely more important than the guitar, I think is the same answer for your question here is that Cain is still an imager of God. So as far as being able to bless everyone the same way Abraham is able to bless people, comes from him bearing the image of God more than it does his power and how many sheep he has and all of this stuff. And I think that's probably the answer that best fits that question is like, so Cain's a murderer and he's this and he's this and whatever. But God has the ability to redeem his life back to the image of God. Right.

Jon 34:55

And this is where, because there are a ton of rabbit trails you can do with that exact question. What does Cain have to offer? And I have a lot of opinions, there've been a lot of people who wrote them, but what you don't get is the text does not answer that question. And so we have to again put that in the pocket of fun speculative speculation. Don yelled at me three times for that one. Not true, not true. But it's to say, like the text is actually saying something. No, no, no, not the outline, the text. So what did the text mean to highlight? And what it highlights for us is that Cain is a power, he has a city, he is a patriarch. How he does this, don't know. Is he tapping into other powers? Does he have other patrons of a spiritual nature? All that's on the table, but the text never tells you that. And so you have to just say, okay, what the text is highlighting is this descent of family into uh cannibalism, into like just this desire to serve self at the expense of others.

Rose 35:56

Do you think that some of his story is wrapped up in the conversation the Lord has with him before he even kills Abel when he says, Sin is crouching at your door, and you must, you know, its desire is for you. Yeah, and you must rule over it.

Jon 36:10

Is that foreshadowing from the And the implication that's unsaid there and is present in the text, just in because this is the way language works. Either you rule over it or it will rule over you. And so what you're seeing is this unspoken darkness has moved and taken control of Cain. Now here's the speculation is he possessed, is there another demon thing going on? Because to ancient peoples, cities always have a religious connection. The idea of a secular city to a Mesopotamian like Abraham was would never have crossed his mind. The cities were places of the gods. And so by using that word city, I think there's a nudge there to a spiritual reality, but nothing concrete in the text. So this leads my speculation and it gives me nothing that I can say, thus says the Lord. I just have to go.

Rose 37:06

I wonder if so question um if all of ancient cities were non-secular, they were built as a with a temple, as a temple, you know, something. When do you suppose that flipped? Because our friend was in Italy last week, and she said that each of the medieval towns, even that they visited, always have the church at the center. It's built out from there, and every single one had one. So even up to you know 500 years ago, this the church itself was the center of the towns and villages.

Martin 37:38

Well, I would uh implore you to go to somewhere in the middle of the country and find a small town, less than a thousand people, that doesn't have a church right in the middle of it, and then a bar on the corner. That's how cities are.

Jon 37:51

You're gonna find, especially in the West, like out here, like there's different views of this and different cultures have done this differently. Specifically, though, Abraham and his family, who are the ones who record this book, they have very specific ideas about what cities are because they came from Mesopotamia. And the Mesopotamians definitely connected the idea of city and of the gods. This was the place of the god, and it was there to be blessed by the smaller things around it. It didn't bless them. Resources flow to it in a sense of you give me your goods. And it's always through violence. There's a if this is a fascinating study, it could be its own podcast for years and years all on its own. The history of Mesopotamia is fascinating. Uh, but the idea that's present in that one culture is definitely of a religious city. As to when it's spread out from there, I don't know.

Rose 38:50

So, what about Jesus' words in the Sermon on the Mount where he calls us a city on a hill?

Jon 38:55

Yeah, this is part of that redemptive ark. She needs to listen to last week's episode.

Rose 39:00

I will do that ASAP.

Jon 39:01

You haven't listened to last week's episode, right? And you were like, this is too great. It is blinding in its brilliance. No, at the very end, you get a new Jerusalem that comes down and it has walls. But the walls are not there to keep people out. They've become an adornment for the city, like a bride decked. Yeah. Yeah. And so let's get into the text now. We've gone over 30 minutes without reading a Bible verse. Well, so it hurts my heart.

Martin 39:28

With uh Cain's city, is he the God? Is that the implication of what we're getting at?

Jon 39:34

Or that he's at least the priest of. Yeah. Let's look at this verse. There's a weird thing in here that I think will that that points me in that direction. Let's look at verse 17.

Rose 39:42

Uh Genesis 4, verse 17. Cain knew his wife, and she conceived and bore Enoch. When he built a city, he called the name of the city after the name of his son, Enoch. To Enoch was born Erod, and Erod fathered wow, Mahuajel.

Jon 39:57

Good job.

Rose 39:58

Yeah. And Mahuajel fathered. No wonder you pointed at me, Martin. Mahuthashel, and he fathered Lamech. And Lamech took two wives. The name of the one was Ada, and the name of the other Zillah. And Ada bore Jabel. He was the father of those who dwell in tents and have livestock. His brother's name was Jubal, and he was the father of all those who play the lyre and pipe. Zillah also bore Tubalcane, he was the forger of all instruments of bronze and iron. The sister of Tubulcane was Naimah. Lamech said to his wives, Ada and Zillah, hear my voice, you wives of Lamech, listen to what I say. I have killed a man for wounding me, a young man for striking me. If Cain's revenge is sevenfold, then Lamech's is seventy sevenfold.

Jon 40:46

Now we're going to deal with this poem in the next episode. Okay, so don't get too excited. We're not going to be able to tag it on to the end of this episode. But Lamech writes a song, a poem. It's a six-lined poem. Hint, hint, sixes have meaning in the text. But this is a song not of worship. This is a song of the glorification of his violent nature. And he kills a boy, is who he kills, who's offended him. And this is something to sing about. What kind of a city is Enoch? It's the kind of place where this is the music you're hearing. It's the place where they are singing about abuse. They are singing about vengeance. And they've even twisted the words of God around, where he said, You remember where God said he would revenge Cain sevenfold, he would protect him? Well, I don't need God. I have it 70 times seven. Which Jesus is going to turn this around with Peter. You know, how often do I have to forgive someone? And Jesus uses this exact line: 70 times seven. Now we're going to unpack that in the next episode. What I want to talk about are all those beautiful names and the weird things that are popping up in this description of the family. So Cain has a wife. Did you catch her name?

unknown 41:59

No.

Rose 42:00

Which one? Oh.

Jon 42:01

Well, it's not there. Cain's wife is uh not mentioned in this film. Uh neither are the wives of his children. There's a whole list here of fathers, and no women are mentioned except that you assume that they're there because they're having children. The very next time a woman of Cain's family is named, the Bible zooms in on the sixth man in Cain's line. This is a guy called Lemmeck. And the text indicates that the important thing about these women is that Lemmech has two of them. They are collectibles. He's not got an acer, he's collecting people. They're not something that he's looking at in the terms of Adam and Eve. Here you find a twisting of family. And probably it was slowly developing into this, but the Bible zooms in on Lemmech in particular to give you a lesson in what it looks like when family devolves into the chaos that's present in Cain's line. So even Lemmech's daughter, who is named, her name is Naema, which is a very pretty name, uh, her name is again, it it indicates that she is just to be seen and not heard. Her name means pretty or lovely, graceful, not someone who does anything other than look good. You don't get the idea that she is an Azer or that his wives are acting as equals in a marriage of uh desiring to be a unified family. You get the idea that the women are supposed to stand around and clap when Lemmeck kills people. That's their goal. This is kind of like almost like caveman type mentality with his club out there banging people over the head. Sin is going to do something very strange to her. There are two women. One of them's name is Ada, and that means adornment or Something decorative. And Zilla, her name means shade or a dark, lovely place, the idea of to rest beneath the shade of trees. And they're present. This is interesting because their names are given. I would like a lot more of the characters' names. And so the fact that the Bible does zoom in on this generation is interesting because apparently, even though Cain is probably not a good dad and his family is twisted, his family is brilliant. They are incredibly intelligent, incredibly creative. What you're noticing here is that sin does not stop mankind's creativity. Instead, it redirects its purpose. What if these children had grown up in Eden with a right relationship with God? The things that they're bringing, the civilization, the technology that seems to be present in their lives, is not an evil thing. Instead, it is a twisted thing. So you may notice their names kind of rhyme. That's because they all come from the word juva, uh, which means ram's horn. Uh you hear it in the word like the year of jubilee. Like that's the idea. And this word is a festival word. It means to go to somewhere, to parade, to process to the holy, or process rather, to the holy place. Their names are connected to celebration and pilgrimage.

Martin 45:28

I think we need to back up a second when you were talking about the redirection of the creativity of these human beings. And you know, my dad mentioned something to me a long time ago about how technology is not evil or good. It's how you utilize it that makes it one way or the other. That it it is a neutral party. And I think that's kind of the same thing that's happening here. But I think in today's world, and probably how you grew up more than me, but even myself, a lot of the items around you are utilized to say that's an evil thing. You need to do something good. And it's the same way. I mean, the internet is the biggest one. You use the internet to teach people in India across the world, you know, once a week and talk with these gentlemen and really help and aid and bless their lives. The internet can be used for a lot darker things than that, but it's the intentionality of the person, and I think the direction of the creativity is the best line that you used there as to how this stuff happens. It's very highlighted that the direction of Kane's family is going towards the utilization of creativity, technology, gifts that have been given from God to a dark and nasty place.

Jon 46:39

Yeah, that's exactly my point. It isn't that civilization is bad or that cities are bad, or that technology is bad. That kind of mentality was really common in Appalachia because people have been burned enough times by people coming in and promising this will fix the problem only to find out it makes it worse, that instead of actually redeeming the thing and finding ways to make it beautiful and useful, we instead just throw rocks at it in the hopes it will go away. Uh, right now you're finding this with AI, with the internet, all that stuff, but it can be used beautifully or it can be used evilly, but the world is not going to sit still for you, just not stop advancing because God made humanity to have dominion. We are constantly going to be having new ideas, expressing them in new ways. And those things can either be great blessings for the world or horrible burdens on the world. That's what the text seems to be highlighting here. And it's interesting what it does. So let's look at these boys. There's three of them plus Neymar, but I'm sorry, Naima, you didn't seem to really add much other than you were very pretty. And I'm sure you worked very hard to look good, but that's not the thing that's blessed here. That's these three guys Jabel, Jubal, and Tubal. This is who we are. So the first guy, Jabel.

Martin 48:03

This is like Huey Dewey and Louis.

Jon 48:04

It is Huey Dewey and Louis, yeah. So this is the idea. All three of these names have a religious context to them, that idea of procession, which makes me wonder like, why was this a dominant concept inside of Cain's family? Remember, by the time these guys come around, there have been multiple generations of people who have been living inside of Cain's family. He is the father of those who uh wander and raise animals. Now you might wonder, I thought Abel was already doing that. Wasn't he a shepherd keeping animals? Well, Abel, all the way back in Genesis 3 or the beginning of four, the word that's used to describe what Abel is doing is the word saon. And it means to uh keep sheep, goats. It's the idea of like smallness. He has just enough. The word that's used here for Jabel is mitnah, and it means a much broader sense of like getting everything you can. Get all the animals, big animals, small animals. He is acquiring an Eden-like zoo around him. He wants to be the master of the creatures, and they're eating them, I assume, or they're at least abusing them, or they're using them for their own devices here. But this word is different from what's used with Abel. And he seems not to just be, it doesn't say he's just a guy who does it, it says he is the father of those who, implying that he creates his own way of life that is about utilizing the creatures of this world for himself. The next guy, whose name sounds almost identical, is Jubal, and he's the father of those who play the lyre and the pipes, the harps. He's inventing music. His name means to river or to stream, something that flows out of him, which is a great word for a musician. That's kind of what musicians do. He's bringing beauty into the world. Music can be very beautiful, but what are they singing about? Well, they're singing about pride and anger, and they're they've this is becomes either a method of blessing or of cursing. Even I think of like the song when the ladies sing when k when David comes back into the city, Saul has killed us thousands, but David has tens of thousands, becomes an instrument of strife, not because of the reality of it, but because of the twistedness of Cain's heart. And so we don't look at Jubal and say, Oh, the world would have been better if you had never invented music. Music was going to be invented. It was something that God placed within the hearts of mankind to find. He does it. That should be a great blessing. What does he do with it? In the same way, animals. He's keeping the animals. Why? This can be a great blessing, or it can be an evil thing. It reflects mankind's creative capacity. Cain hasn't lost it. His children have not lost this. The first recorded song is about abuse and murder. The next guy, his name is Tubal Cain. Did you notice his his great-great great great great grandpa's name is in there? This is interesting. He's the forger of instruments of bronze and iron. His name literally means the one who is brought before Cain. This is what I was talking about a minute ago, Rose, with the idea of Cain as like a king. He was brought before great Cain as like an offering to be blessed. And the idea is this Cain is ruling over his people as a patriarch or as a prince, a king of the city or a priest. Something has happened here. And it's not just Cain happens to live over on First Street because he was the first guy here. But we're all equals in a democratic society and just loving each other and living at one with nature. This is a group of people who are intent on remaking the world in their own image. His name, Tubal, uh, means to be brought to Cain. But what he does, it's he's the forger. The word there means he's the beater, he's the hammerer of these things. And he's wandering around looking for uh ore, iron ore, bronze. He's the guy who creates these things. But here's the problem it says he's the father of this, but do you really join a family that's musical? Just because mom and dad are great musicians doesn't mean you're gonna be a great musician. And just because mom and dad were great forgers of things doesn't mean that you are. These guys seem to be using the language of family, but the reality behind it seems to be more gild. Like we are the people who excel at these things.

Rose 52:50

I have a nerd question that I feel like I should know the answer to. This seems like this would have been pre-Iron Age. So how is he forging bronze and iron?

Jon 52:59

That's a really good question. So we know for sure that the traditional view of Stone Age, Bronze Age, Iron Age, that's so neatly laid out in the textbooks, doesn't really apply to the way the world really came about. We know that long before the Bronze Age ended, people were making things with iron. And we know that long after the Iron Age started, people were still making things with stone and with bronze. So this seems to be describing what the world was like before the flood. What we're talking about is the world after the flood that we're used to, but even then it doesn't fit. Inside of King Tut's tomb, which is very Bronze Age, uh, there's a meteorite dagger that's made there of iron that fell out of the sky. It's like a steel that's formed out of meteoric or iron. And so how he's doing it, it doesn't say. It just says this guy is creating tools, but a tool can also be uh a weapon, it can be something utilized to bring people into subjection, I think just as much as it can be weeds.

Martin 54:07

I think we've definitely lost the art of naming in today's world. Like this last guy's name is to the one brought before Kane. My name is like a bird, I think. Like I don't I don't understand what my name is not anything cool other than Oh, yes, it is.

Jon 54:22

You don't know the story of Martin? No, one of the coolest saints in European history. You need to go read about Martin and the sharing of the cloak.

Martin 54:31

There's always like this idea of like the strong one or the the brilliant one or the the musical one. Like I don't know. I I know I'm a bird, like it's a little purplish black bird, and as a Martin, but but it's just interesting how much that they brought that into it, and then you can see how that passes down into the generations. I I like the fact that you said the word guild because it's a little bit different than family. You've mentioned it several times, how like the idea of being the father of something doesn't mean that it's your biological child. Same with mothering. You don't have to mother your biological child, but it is the the antithesis, no, the the origin of that like trade, if you will. And that's what a guild mentality would be with these three guys. So I it I think that's important that it's not just it's a bit of a mystery.

Jon 55:17

I don't know, but that's what I I seem to be leaning that way. I I can't say definitely for sure, but I wonder about it. There's a a really interesting thing that develops over time is people who work in blacksmiths, uh forging iron and bronze, typically around the world, that was connected to elements of witchcraft, uh, of um alchemy, like dabbling in secret arts, and it was a protected knowledge. One of my favorite prayers is uh the Lorica of St. Patrick, the breastplate of St. Patrick. And then it ends with this beautiful call of Christ be with me, Christ before me. It's awesome. But there's this really great line in it where he says, against the spells of witches, smiths, and wizards. It just kind of dumps Smiths in the same category. And you're like, what in the world did they do? They're just trying to because you're used to thinking of this through the scientific lens of obviously this is what happens. The ancient world looked at this practice kind of with a side eye. They're like, you know, secrets that change the nature of things. Right. And so we even when we get into like how people are making iron, one of the reasons that those things disappeared is they didn't share the information. They were guild secrets as to how to make some of these things.

Martin 56:39

If you think about it, people were making stuff out of stone, which was take a stone, tie it to a rock, and now you have a tool. These guys are taking still a stone, iron ore, doing something to it, and all of a sudden it's not a rock anymore.

Jon 56:53

Yeah, and if you look in there, it looks creepy. Like you get to the point, even in like David and Jonathan's uh story, Saul and Jonathan are the only two guys in the army who have a sword. No one in Israel knows how to make them. They have to go to the Philistines to get these things. And so whether or not the author is intending there to be a little bit of a nudge towards the dark arts here, I don't know. What it says is he's the guy who figures this out. But for a lot of human history, they would have read this and thought, mm-hmm, that tracks. The children of Cain would have been the guys trying to find hidden secrets, which is kind of the thinking behind the occult in the beginning. Now, that having been said, if you're a smith and you love working with iron, that's a gobbledy habit and you should keep doing it. There's nothing witchcrafty about it.

Rose 57:39

We have a forge at our house.

Jon 57:40

I knew it. I knew it.

Rose 57:42

Jeremy and Kip love to forge things.

Martin 57:46

But there's an understanding of it, there's a different cultural understanding of it now. Like you said, there's a science behind it where we understand why the rock turns into iron now because when you heat it up and stuff, oh, dark secrets coming out on the very different world that's being described there.

Jon 58:02

So what we're looking at here is the natural creative genius of mankind. God didn't take it away and say, oh, you guys are related to Cain, so I'm gonna make you dumb as rocks. Instead, these things kind of define what we would consider to be human civilization. Imagine civilization without mass farming or without iron or bronze or music.

Speaker 4 58:25

Entertainment.

Jon 58:26

Like this is this is huge. Or without cities, it's through the line of Cain that a lot of this is being uh brought forward. And the Bible doesn't look at these things as evils, instead, it sees them as ways that you could twist into an evil. Like, let's look at this, for instance. Um I don't have time really to do that one. That's that's a shame. Um Yeah, let's go to Exodus 31, one through five.

Martin 58:53

The Lord said to Moses, See, I have called by name Basalel, the son of Uri, son of her, of the tribe of Judah, and I have filled him with the Spirit of God with ability and intelligence, with knowledge and with all craftsmanship, to devise artistic designs to work in gold, silver, and bronze, and cutting stones for setting, and in carving wood to work in every craft.

Jon 59:18

So here you have a guy who is following in the line of this art or this philosophy, this thing that is created by Cain's children. But he's able to do this beautifully, and God enables him to do it. God doesn't say, it's new technology, I don't like none of that. I'll throw that out. Anyone doing this is the devil. Instead, what he says is use this in a way that blesses the world. And this guy does. Other people are not. There's this twisting of the gift that's there. And so I'm not afraid of new things when they come. I'm annoyed by them sometimes, but I'm not afraid of them. But humanity's heart is the thing that is twisting or pursuing God. That's the thing that needs to be corrected. You can take away technology, and people will be just as slothful or just as violent as they ever been, because the problem's not in the thing, it's in the people who are using these things.

Martin 1:00:14

But you hear people say that all the time. The first murder was done with a stone.

Jon 1:00:18

Uh yeah.

Martin 1:00:18

It's not the technological advancements that make people want to kill each other.

Jon 1:00:22

Yeah, instead I would say, why is it that humanity insists on treasuring up hate? Why is it that we reject hospitality almost totally? This idea of scarcity. I mean, this is one of the major emphasises behind racism. We were here first, our people look like this, talk like this, this, our language, and we ain't got and there's this anger towards anyone different than them. That's an abomination before God. There's no room for racism within the heart of a Christian. What you're seeing here is the natural creative genius of humanity, but you're getting the idea that it's going to lead towards things like Lemmeck, who's writing songs about killing people, about what weapon did he use to do this. Humanity was made to be with God, to work and to keep. Biblical dominion was never a calling to consume creation. It's a calling to cultivate it and to care for it. The same is true of the church now. So if you're a church and you're like, we don't do projectors or television or any technology, yeah, you do. Your building's made out of bricks. Someone figured out how to make that. Or it's made out of logs, someone figured out how to do like technology is a present reality. So wield it for the glory of God. Let's look at a psalm. We're over our hour. You're just gonna have to cope with it. Okay, if you if you need to go away, you can pause us and come back later. But I want to get these. This is Psalm chapter eight.

Rose 1:01:45

O Lord, our Lord, how majestic is your name in all the earth. You have set your glory above the heavens, out of the mouth of babies and infants, you have established strength because of your foes to still the enemy and the avenger. When I look at your heavens, the work of your fingers, the moon and the stars which you have set in place. What is man that you are mindful of him, and the son of man that you care for him? Yet you may have made him a little lower than the heavenly beings, and crowned him with glory and honor. You have given him dominion over the works of your hands, you have put all things under his feet, all sheep and oxen, and also the beasts of the field, the birds of the heaven and the fish of the sea, whatever passes along the paths of the seas. O Lord, our Lord, how majestic is your name in all the earth.

Jon 1:02:33

So here's the gold standard. This is what we want to be true. God, you have blessed us. You have given us what does it say there? Glory and honor. You have given us dominion over the work of your hands. That's how we should be viewing dominion. We are stewarding something that God has made.

Rose 1:02:53

Do you think that people confuse rights with responsibilities?

Jon 1:02:58

I do, yeah, don't you?

Rose 1:02:59

Yeah, I mean, I would say it had to have dominion and to work and keep is a responsibility, but when you take it as a right, it becomes yours instead of something you are caring for. And so then you feel like you have the ability and the um I don't even know the word to treat it however you want because it's yours now. But when you look at it more as dominion being servanthood and shepherding and stewarding, you're caring for something that belongs to somebody or someone to the Lord, and it changes it. It becomes a responsibility.

Jon 1:03:32

Yeah, I think so. Do I view what I bring to the table as my contribution, or do I view this as God working through me to bless those who are around me? Now, I have to care for my home and my children. I put those needs first. I have bills, they got to get paid. I got responsibilities, but I have not got to the point where I also don't have time in my life to at least help other people with what's going on in theirs. Do I have eyes that see, even if it's something small? Like Martin does something really great. You guys don't know about it because you've never been over here, but Martin keeps a refrigerator stocked full of goodies. And I have made him poor because I drink them constantly. And it's a good thing, but it's an element of hospitality. And we have stripped hospitality and replaced it with racism and elitism, where this idea of only me and mine are able to be blessed by this, rather than asking ourselves, what could I do to improve the place where I live? We start asking questions like, What's in this for me? Or how does this benefit me? How can I use this to my advantage? It's very different from what Psalm 8 is describing here. So sinful man isn't going to stop being creative. He's just going to build things like Babylon. When the heart of man is right with God, remember at the end of the book of Revelation, you don't just find a new Eden, you find a new Jerusalem that comes down, the city of God. It's not that the walls are gone, but this thing that was a shame has now been turned into a glory. I think in the last episode we mentioned how Christ preserves the holes in his hands and his feet. This he doesn't need to do that. Their presence reminds us of the conquest of the light over the darkness. Something beautiful has triumphed. And so now even the marks of violence have become sermons of glory about the goodness of God. Let's do one last one, and then we need to wrap it up because you guys have lives, and I need to give them back to you. Isaiah chapter two, verses two, three, and four.

Martin 1:05:43

It shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established as the highest of the mountains, and shall be lifted up above the hills, and all the nations shall flow to it.

Jon 1:06:00

To river away, right? Now the description is what's happening is humanity is not running away from the mountain of God. Humanity is flowing up the mountain of God. Keep going.

Martin 1:06:12

And many peoples shall come and say, Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob, that he may teach us his ways, and that we may walk in his paths. For out of Zion shall go forth the law and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

Jon 1:06:29

This is the opposite of Cain's family. You would never imagine Lemek saying this. How do we go back and get right with God? How do we repair the relationship? Instead, he's going to say things like, I just killed a guy and I've got a good tune I'm going to teach it to you. It's about how cool I am, and I killed this guy. And I want my women who I've collected to just come over here and tell me what a good song it is. You don't get the idea that he's even remotely desiring a repaired relationship with God. He wants perhaps to use God, but he's not interested in being a servant of the Lord. This is what he's saying that they he may teach us his ways, that we may walk in his paths. This is repentance.

Martin 1:07:11

Keep going.

Jon 1:07:31

By the way, both of them are technology. So before you get like all anti-technology, there's some stuff going on here. But what he's saying is I'm able to take what you have and make something good out of it. He doesn't say destroy the swords. He says turn them into plowshares. Redeem them. Redeem them. There is a redemptive arc here.

Rose 1:07:53

Well, plowshares and pruning hooks would both be gardening tools.

Jon 1:07:58

So suddenly this thing that you would assume is totally outside of God's will and word. He we're going to go back to Eden. We're going to have a repeat. Everyone runs around naked, not eating from this one tree. Instead, when you get to Revelation, you find there's a city with walls, and there's two trees that we can eat from, and they're for the healing of the nations. Remember, these two guys, these three guys are described as the fathers of peoples. The people who play music, the peoples who do this. There's there's a there's so many connections all through the passages of the Bible, but they all unite back in this one thing that humanity was made to be with God, and we are refusing to walk with him. And if you want to walk with him, you need to repent of your sins and ask for the forgiveness of God and come back because he is the God of gods, the Lord of Lords, mighty and awesome.