The Two Trees Podcast
We want to help modern people read an ancient book. We’re here to help you get over being bored with your Bible, how to see the patterns and the literary designs the ancient authors of scripture used, as the Holy Spirit led them to write the Bible, Most important of all, we're here to show you Jesus as Deuteronomy 10:17 describes Him: the Lord your God is the God of gods, and the Lord of lords, mighty and awesome.
The Two Trees Podcast
Invasion or Incarnation
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The ancient world celebrated stories of gods, giants, and mighty heroes. Genesis tells the story differently. In this episode, we explore Genesis 6 and contrast divine invasion with the incarnation—the powers come to take, but God comes to give.
Hello, my friends, and welcome to the Two Trees Podcast. I'm John Dillon, and I'm here with Rosemary Moller.
RoseHello.
JonAnd Martin Listener, who has had surgery on his face.
RoseReally? That's what we're going to call it.
JonWell, work on his teeth, which is kind of the same thing.
MartinI got my lower uh braces put on today. So if I am talking with a Lishp today, you'll know why.
JonBut he's gonna have a dazzling smile shortly.
MartinIn a short year from today.
JonNo, yeah, that's barely any time at all. In two years. That's it's practically eternity.
RoseAre you gonna wear your retainer after you get your braces off?
MartinUh not for some time. Once these things come off, it's freedom for a little bit. And then we'll think about it.
RoseMy boys have both either willingly lost, let's just say their retainers, and it doesn't make me happy. So just keep that in mind.
MartinI feel like Kip took his out and shot it probably.
RoseProbably right.
JonKip has shot a lot of things at your house. Every once in a while, we'll be out there with Jeremy, and we just hear gunshots, and then Kip's like, it's okay.
RoseYeah, he loves to target practice, he loves hunting, he's all the things. He would be in his element right now. We are battling, we are not, but my daughter is battling raccoons at her house who are killing all of her chickens. And it is not fun. There are dead chickens everywhere. And she's on a two-week trip out west, and so her dad is over there helping out, let's just say. Catching them at night, transporting them to a different farm. We got a phone call this morning from my dad. He said, The roosters are fighting. You need to come over and separate them. So, Jeremy and I. I got my welding gloves. Jeremy got a bad attitude, and we went over at six o'clock in the morning to catch some roosters and separate them. So we need Kip back here to take care of this raccoon problem.
JonYeah, you go in there and separate those roosters. We will watch over here with cups of coffee and judgment.
RoseI mostly had the cup of coffee and I ran the fence. That was all I had to do.
JonYou ran the fence?
RoseOpen the fence, shut the fence to keep chickens in and roosters out, and vice versa.
MartinSo I feel like Kip would be at the end of the gray when Liam Neeson has like the shards of glass on his hands and he's just taking on the wolf. Like that would be Kip going against those chickens.
JonI can see it. Jeremy did jump up. We were all together last night. We were watching America uh not quite win uh in the World Cup. Get dominated. Yeah, so um, you know, Belgium, they did they looked real, real good.
MartinThey're more than waffles, man.
JonThey are more than waffles. Our waffle house is still sketchier.
RoseOh, yeah.
JonAnd so we still hold that title. But uh turns out, no joke over there in Belgium. So props to you guys. And uh I'm back to baseball now that uh although now I'm a Belgian fan, Belgium has to win the whole thing because I want to lose to the best.
MartinIt's true.
JonAnd I need England not to win. Sorry, English people.
MartinThey're a long shot.
JonThat's what I need. Anyway, we are ready to roll. Oh no, we we have to hear from our sponsor. A word from our sponsor.
MartinA word from our sponsor. If you've listened to us for a long time, you may know that uh we have redefined maybe what you have thought an angel was. And you'll need to know that. So if you don't get this sponsor, go back and listen to some of our older episodes and you'll understand it. But our sponsor is a good thing. Work that they would learn from our wonderful previous episodes around. So they should go back and listen to them. But today's sponsor is Gabriel's Delivery Service.
JonI see what you did there.
MartinSame day delivery guaranteed, or it's free.
JonOr it's free.
MartinGabriel's delivery service.
JonWell, thank you to Gabriel's Delivery Service, although you had nothing to do with actually sponsoring us if you were around. We know you would. And so, in to the Bible we go, into Genesis 6. This is season four of the Two Trees Podcast, where our goal this year is to help you bridge the culture gap between the ancient world and a modern reader. And as modern readers ourselves, I was castigated last time for ending the episode right when Rose was ready to ask questions.
RoseIt wasn't just me. You started in with your Was it just Rose?
MartinNo, I had a lot of stuff to do.
RoseYeah, Martin and I looked at each other. We're like, is he wrapping this up?
JonI couldn't read the room.
unknownYeah.
MartinI know I had like three things, and John goes, and that's why Jesus is the Lord of Lords.
JonSo anyway, we're gonna deal with a couple of those as we push on today. They're they're obviously gonna pop up as we're reading. Uh, but in particular, Rose came to me with a question that really was along the lines of what I thought would be a really helpful discussion, because we find that the Bible has very, very serious objections to the angelic world just popping by uh to the physical world and doing things their own way, but the whole of human history kind of pivots on the point that God himself does this. He comes into human history and the person of Jesus, the death on the cross, the resurrection. And so Rose was asking, kind of, you know, is this kind of stealing the thunder of something that God had planned in the future? And the answer to that is yes, in a great big way. The emphasis here in Genesis 6 does have a lot of implications for what we're going to encounter later uh with the gospels themselves. And so we're going to dig into a little bit of that as well, but we're also going to field all of the questions that I so rudely pushed past in our last episode.
MartinI think it's interesting that when we're talking about bridging the gap, how many times that we say that God or that Jesus in particular was an anti-something? Because humanity has set up this way of society, this way of whatever, and then Jesus flips the scripts. The script. The script. That one's a hard one. That's gonna be hard.
JonI like braces, uh Martin. He has interesting pronunciation.
MartinWhen Jesus flips the script, we often refer to him as an anti-something or another, because that's what history was, and then he has reversed it. But it's it's more important to me to understand that God put human history into motion in a righteous and perfect way. That's what Genesis 1 says, that when he creates it, it was good. And then humanity is the anti of what creation is. Now, just because the word, and I don't like to use that word, but then Jesus reverts it back to the way that God intended creation to be. So it's it's funny that we say that because we even mentioned it already today, that it's kind of an anti-what happened, but it's so much more important when we realize that what humanity has done to God's creation is the anti itself.
JonThat's right. And you don't get much information like God didn't bother to clear his plan with any of the angelic hosts or with humanity. He announces it. You know, hey, Adam and Eve, you have taken from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, which I specifically told you not to do. But don't worry, there's going to come a serpent crusher. The head of the serpent is going to be crushed. So God is not uh up there like, oh man, things are getting really out of control. I wonder if I'm still in charge. He's absolutely still in charge, but he doesn't tell us all of his plans. It is our job to be faithful and to await the fulfillment of God's things in God's time.
RoseSo one of my questions I had, and it's been a week, and I also have lost the receipt that I had written some things down on. I was You ate it, remember? Oh yeah. It was that's right, I did. It tasted like diabetic pie, honestly. So Okay, where was I? Okay, so one thing I was gonna ask was with this with the sons of God come to the daughters of man, the first time that we see this is when Satan comes to talk just to talk to Eve.
SPEAKER_01Yep.
RoseSo why why are they so interested in the ladies? You know, like what is she is the way that he came to talk to Eve, why not go talk to Adam? You know, why does he come in dialogue with Eve instead of Adam?
JonYeah, so Martin actually touched on this a little bit in our last episode by referring to the concept of loyalty, and inside of that is the concept of dynasty. Intrinsic in being an angelic being is that there aren't new, from what we see in scripture, angel babies, despite all the cherubim pictures. Uh the angels seem to have been created once and for all, and in humanity they saw Adam, and he's he's okay, but humanity doesn't become what it was made to be until the introduction of woman. There is the concept of woman as the flower or the uh the glory of man. And I think they honestly looked at that as like, well, why should Adam have such a thing? Why shouldn't we also have our own prodigy, our own um and and to remake themselves according to their own desires rather than to uh submit to the will of the Lord? And so I don't know. There's not a verse in the Bible that says, and this is why they did it. Instead, what you get is hints at it. And so this is John speculating, but that's what I think.
MartinBut the other option is God says that there is going to be a serpent killer that comes from mankind. So if they can get rebellious entities to create babies with them the women, maybe they can taint the bloodline to where the the sons or the you know the serpent killer down the road will have rebellious blood in him or have some way that they can have access to control over.
JonSo there there is an element uh of I always get nervous when people are talking about bloodlines and things because there's some really weird internet stuff about that. But ultimately the promise of the Messiah is not given to Adam, it's entrusted to Eve. Through you is going to come the deliverer, uh, the seed of woman. And so I know the Bible is oftentimes portrayed as a masculine-friendly book, but in this instance, and honestly, throughout the rest of the Bible, women are not treated poorly. They they are in many ways elevated far above uh just the gender roles that humanity and our culture today likes to stick people into. And so it's it's definitely complex, and ultimately we have to say we're not entirely sure whys, but we can say what. This is what they did. And as to the whys, we can look at implications in the text and kind of follow where those lead. Uh, in order to do that, though, we have to separate ourselves from our modern culture and read it as close to an ancient reader as we can. And we can't time travel, but we can ask ourselves, you know, what were the questions they were asking when they read these texts? That gives us a window into trying to understand another person. And in a world that's as self-obsessed as ours, I think it's a healthy exercise to get into anyway. Dr. Heiser used to always say, I want the ancient Israelite living in your head when you're reading scripture, because that's the people who are who are writing this.
MartinAnd one of the hardest things to do with that is to get rid of the hindsight that you have. So we know the end of the story, or at least the important part of the story, and even the future of the Old Testament or whatever. So it's hard to get back to a spot in your mind where you only know what they would have known.
JonYeah, and to live in the text and to allow it to propel you forward. There are definitely places in the Bible where you're like, oh, that I'd never thought about before. I need to go back now and reread this older text with this new thing in mind. But there's also uh a way of reading scripture that remains loyal to what the text is actually saying. Uh when I'm reading it myself, I don't want to substitute my own thoughts and questions and assumptions about later passages when the author themselves has a plan in motion, partially because I'm I'm more worried about me straying off course than I am them straying off course. Matter of fact, I'm not worried about that at all. Though the closer I can be to what the Holy Spirit is saying in the scripture, I think the better off my Bible study is going to be, period. And so when I'm reading Genesis, I'm asking, you know, did the ancient world have a category for something like this? And the answer is absolutely they did. They celebrated stories of divine beings who came to earth and took women and produced mighty heroes. This is ubiquitous across most cultures. And if they don't call them mighty heroes, twisted monsters, but like power is in play. And Genesis tells the story vastly differently. These were not humanity saviors, these people, these persons, these beings left the earth worse, filled with violence. You don't get the idea of God's creation functioning in the way that God intended it to. This is what happens when we rebel. We don't create order, we create chaos.
MartinBut it's still, the Bible still indicates that these creatures were of certain might and power.
JonOh, for sure.
MartinIt doesn't, it doesn't negate what mythology would tell you or other cultures would tell you that these things were, you know, bigger, faster, stronger, maybe had superpowers or whatever you want to let your mind wander into. And that's what I was mentioning last episode, where it's like that is so much more intriguing to me as a as a person, looking at all these archaeological things and all this culture around the world that has such a similar thing, and then it's like the Bible says, no, none of that stuff is real.
JonYeah, the Bible doesn't say none of that stuff is real, it says this version of the story you're telling is backwards. Right. These are not heroes, these are the enemies of you. They're not there to bless you, they're there to manipulate you. And so what we have, like a modern reader comes to Genesis 6 and we hear giants, and all of a sudden we're thinking of the Jolly Green Giant or Jack and the Beanstalk, things like that. We're thinking, yeah, wow, strange supernatural beings. And we've got questions about all right, well, how big is the giant? Are we talking hundreds of feet tall? Are we talking seven feet tall? What's what's going on? We've got questions about genetics, we've got questions about how did the Nephilim survive the flood, and all of the conspiracy theories you can possibly imagine will pop up in your Google search. Arguments about whether or not we should allow the supernatural to be part of the story at all. That's what the modern reader wants to ask. We want to ask, how did this happen? Could it happen? And all of those questions are understandable, but they may not be the questions that an ancient audience asked first. Instead, when they heard the word giant, when they heard of the gods coming to earth and taking human women, divine offspring with these mighty men, they thought founders of civilization. They thought culture heroes, they thought this is who we are as a people. They didn't see this as themselves in in chains to great powers of evil. They looked back and they thought, let's imagine that was the golden age of us. And so they're looking at this, and especially all through the Middle Eastern world, this is the story that the Bible specifically is interacting with on a massive scale. So the ancient culture probably didn't ask how tall they were as their first question. They asked, are these the stories that these giants and heroes and culture heroes are, is this the same thing? Are you are you saying that this happened, but this isn't good? And the answer is yes. And so our world wants to immediately talk about DNA. They wanted to talk about story. They wanted to talk about where do we belong in in this whole event that's unfolding on the earth. And so across the ancient world, people are telling stories about divine beings interacting with humanity. And the culture normally goes something like this: there are spiritual beings, and there are human women, and those two have extraordinary offspring. Heroes, warriors, super wise sages who are traveling, bringing wisdom and information that nobody was thinking of on their own. All of a sudden, boom, there they are. Kings of massive empires and cities, and men who could fight armies by themselves, kings and founders, men who would be remembered for generations, greatness. The offspring are not necessarily remembered as monsters. Usually they're what we would call in our labeling society demigods or a hero, warriors, founders, men of power, worthy of remembrance. But when Genesis tells the story, it flip-flops this. It says, No, we're not saying there weren't amazing, powerful people. We're saying that their hearts were wicked. And they didn't draw us back into Eden. They pushed us deeper into a world of darkness that twists and turns like a snake.
RoseSo is it just a difference of perspective? I mean, I know that's a really big oversimplification, but if it's like an origin story of a hero to them because they have a different moral compass than the believer does. Yeah, absolutely. And even not just a modern believer, but even the people like the children of God then. Not the sons of God.
JonRight. The question is, is the Hebrew God Yahweh, is he the king of the universe or not? If he is, we all owe him our allegiance. If he's not, and some other deity is in charge of me and mine, I owe him my allegiance. And so if all of humanity belongs to some other thing, then the entire message of the Bible shifts.
RoseEven the idea of being an image bearer would shift.
JonThis is the question. Yeah, like Martin was saying about loyalty. Genesis that you're reading, this is way before Abraham. All of humanity, every nationality, every ethnicity is made to image God. It's not just people of a particular class, culture, or language group. All of humanity is. And so what the darkness tries to do is to take it. The same thing that Satan seems to have been doing in the garden. How do I defile what God has set up as holy? I'll recruit the priests, I'll recruit the keepers of the garden, and then God will have to leave. Because I think Satan seemed to think that made sense at the time. Instead, God was way bigger than Satan even thought. You know, wow, you left the garden and went out and talked to guys like Cain. There still is an ongoing relationship. The Enoch story is proof of this.
MartinSo uh the movie Maleficent, have you seen that? Kind of reminds me of what we're talking about here. When you walk when you listen to Sleeping Beauty or you watch the movie of Sleeping Beauty, Maleficent is the bad guy, the the bad girl. The evil villain. The villain. But if you watch the movie Maleficent, it completely flips the script. It it makes it seem that she is not the evil one. Right. Correct. But she has other intentions for what she does, and it is portrayed as evil because of the culture that they are in at the time. Looks at it a different way. And it's the same thing with Genesis. It's not saying that like Maleficent isn't a character and isn't in it. It's just your view on her is different when you understand it from her perspective compared to, you know, Aurora and her.
JonYeah, and that concept is very biblical. The the main question is: is God God? Is he the one? Is he alone in his sovereignty? And the answer is yes. And that's what the Bible is preserving. And so the question that it's dealing with is not one of genetics, it's one of the kingdom of heaven. It's one of the kingdom of God. What is humanity? What are we made to be? Are we the playthings of the darkness, or are we the priests of the garden? This all comes down to identity. And so you can turn this into just a random pursuing of trivial information, like how big is a giant? In the end, it doesn't change the story. There were giants. The Goliath is there, whether you like him or not. David doesn't just wish him away, he hits him in the head with a rock and then chops his head off. But let's go ahead and we'll jump into the story. Let's go to Genesis 6 in verses 1 through 4.
RoseWhen man began to multiply on the face of
JonSo we're going to pause there. The word therefore man, this is the word Adam. Alright. So the the Adam's people, the humans, are multiplying where on the surface of the ground, on the earth. So again, this makes me think in the beginning, God creates what?
RoseThe heavens, the heavens, and the earth.
JonAnd so right away I'm looking at a specific part of God's creation. Keep going.
RoseAnd daughters were born to them. The sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive, and they took as their wives any they chose. Then the Lord said, My spirit shall not abide in man forever, for he is flesh, and his days shall be a hundred and twenty years. The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man, and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown.
JonSo there you can see in the text what exactly it is we're talking about. The sons of God, the Benechal Elohim, is referring to the angelic host, the same as you'd see in the book of Job, where the sons of God shout for joy. This phrase is unique, and we can get into that in a couple other places, but not in this episode. And we've talked about it before. But what's happening here is you see that the angelic beings, and I'm using that phrase for lack of a better one, the sons of God, they see and they take. This is the exact same language that is used to describe humanity's fall in Genesis chapter what chapter is that, chapter three. So they see the women, they see the eaves that are out there, the mothers, and they take them. And they are going to remake the earth in their own image. Now it talks about, and in the same time there are Nephilim on the earth. How do you get a Nephilim? And then it tells you when the sons of God come and have children with the daughters of men. These are those mighty men who are talked about. They see and they take. This is the temptation story. And it's not just something that's true of Adam and Eve or of those angels that are falling here in Genesis six. It's also true of you and me every time we face a temptation. I see it, I want it. Will I submit myself to the will and rule of God, or will I instead pursue this on my own? So let's look at Genesis chapter three and verse six.
MartinSo when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. And she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate.
JonWhat's at Jericho? You're gonna see this uh just in general, it exists with the David story, this sea intake. But specifically here, it's set up just a few pages after the fall of humanity. So, how did the world get as messed up as it is? Well, it's because there was a falling of humanity and a falling of Satan, there are also other angelic beings who are pursuing sin. They are not uh obeying the laws of God, they continue to be breaking them.
MartinSo, John, the only the only thing that I see with that is in the Genesis six portion, the seeing and taking comes from the angelic beings. But all the other scenarios that you're bringing forth in the Bible are to human beings seeing and taking. Is it that the the spiritual beings, the angelic beings, are now important enough to have a see and take moment in the Bible? Oh no.
JonSo we're not actually told exactly there's a there seems to be a rule in scripture where God says to humanity, I'm not gonna tell you a whole lot about the other side. You seem to be unnaturally fascinated with trying to connect. I'm not gonna encourage that. And so we don't know. Are there rules in the heavenly host that are other ways of doings? Probably, absolutely. We find in particular that in Daniel, there's an angel who is sent to speak to Daniel, and he gets jumped by another angelic being called the Prince of Persia. He sees something, he doesn't like it, and so he tries to stop it. And so there are definitely other ways, but again, as a human being who's not a spirit being in totality, I'm a embodied human, I'm not qualified to answer it except to point to instances where it is happening.
MartinWell, I think to keep with what you're trying to say is that the the human beings in Genesis 6 are also the ones that are seeing and taking. I know that it says that the the sons of God came down and take for wives any that they chose, but then later on it says when they come into the the daughters, that's instilling a covenant with the daughters of man.
JonAnd there is an implication, remembered, all of these other cultures are saying that these beings came and we willingly followed.
MartinRight.
JonWe wanted what they had to offer.
MartinBut what you're saying with the seeing and taking, and all of that is happening with humankind, I think it's the same here. If you apply that same thing that you're saying to this text, that strongly indicates that the human beings are seeing and taking. It's not just that. So when Satan is in the garden, he tempts Eve. He doesn't force Eve to take the apple, but he provides information to her that it wants her to eat the apple. In Genesis 6, how can we say that now all of a sudden they're saying, no, we're going to force you into doing something about one side.
JonNo, I I completely agree with you. This isn't a one or the other.
MartinIs still on both sides, the the angelic beings and the human beings.
JonBut if you think about that, what it's saying is what is it that's being discussed? Humanity has to either choose, and the spiritual world has to choose, am I loyal to God most high or not?
SPEAKER_01Right.
JonAm I going to impose my own will to supersede that of the king? That's what's being discussed for the angelic world and for the human world. And so these sons of God do not enter the human world to bless it. They come to manipulate it. They're not saying, How I'm just I see what God is doing. I think I could improve. I want to be part of your creative mission here, Lord, and I'm just going to be a blessing. Instead, they go in and they use their position, their power, their knowledge for their own desires. The relationship between heaven and earth becomes exploitive. The weak become objects to be possessed, to be owned, to be used. Power becomes domination. So they don't enter to serve it. The human world is there to be used. And probably a lot of the humans thought, hey, I can use this for my own advantage as well. That's kind of the concept behind most of these concepts of magic and things like that. But let's let's dig in a little bit here to this idea of the mighty men of renown. Would you go back to Genesis 6 and read verse 4, Rose?
RoseThe Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown.
JonSo the word that's used here of Nephilim, when the Septuagint translators, who knew Hebrew as their first language, and they're putting it into Greek, they used the word giant here. And so to me, that's definitive. When the original putters of the Bible into Greek read this, they didn't see this as when bad guys or just fallen ones. And Dr. Heiser has a whole emphasis here about the word nerdery of how the word Nephilim comes about. But what you're dealing with here is not normal humanity, not just another powerful person. You're talking about some sort of culture hero, the giants. And another word is introduced here, it's the word gibberim, that idea of mighty man. In the Bible, the phrase mighty man is used typically to mean fighting man. It's the idea of a warrior, someone who is imposing their will through strength of arms. So these are men with reputations. These are people to remember. And the ancient world loves these kind of figures like Achilles. He's a terrible human being. He pouts through half the book and kills the best guy in the whole story, and then has a really sad, depressing ending where he's he gets shot in the ankle or the heel, and boom, now he's gone. It's really hard for me to like Achilles, but I love Hector. When I'm reading these stories, you're asking, okay, are you saying that that specific guy was real? No, I'm saying there were people like that, that those stories are inspired by. Now, history has told us that some of those ancient people had the same names. Like there really was a historical Gilgamesh who really he conquered four cities and then proclaimed himself king of the universe. I think that's a little grandiose, but it took him most of his life to get four, and he that was good enough. All of a sudden, he's the guy. And for years and years after that, you have legends that grow up around this guy, so that within a couple hundred years people are remembering him in Nephilim-like language. It's not saying that exact guy did exactly these things. That's the propaganda. But it is, the Bible is telling you that these stories are not completely made up.
MartinWell, Leo just went to the front of the boat and claimed he was the king of the world.
JonI know, that's all you have to do.
MartinSo it must not take too much to be ruler of everything.
JonHe couldn't even keep his boat afloat or get on board of the giant floating piece of wood that was at never mind. So the ancient story, right? The ancient story says, look at how strong they are, look at how great they are, look at how they're famed. That's what I want to be like. So mankind has to ask, what is it we're pursuing? Are we wanting to be like the dark, or are we wanting to be like Eden? And so the ancient world asks us to admire these mighty men. Genesis kind of dismisses them. Did you notice none of them are named? There is no list of, I don't know, the sons of God's mighty men. We get that for David, though. Why not give it to us here? I think it would make excellent reading. I think a lot of people would make their favorite Bible verse. So I'm gonna dig into that. I like these stories. But instead, we find the Bible describes what happens and it strips their names away.
RoseAren't there extra biblical stories that have their names in them? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay.
JonBut again, because they're not in scripture, I think I'm dealing there with folk tales. Andor if it really was their names, I can't prove it. And so I'm just kind of left wondering. When I die, I'm gonna go ask people these things. Noah, I want you to tell me some cool stories. And he's gonna say, I'm very busy, John. There are other people who want to talk to me.
MartinIt's very important though to note what you just mentioned, how like people would make it their most their favorite scripture and and what they want to really dig into because it is really cool. Like, and I think that's oh yeah, I think that's the darkness influence on our life today, is that how much cooler it is. Like, do you want to be this? I'm just paraphrasing, but do you want to be this little church mouse that goes to Sunday every or do you want to be this like mighty Achilles-type warrior that's whatever? If you just look at it from a human perspective, the men of renown are so much cooler.
JonWell, even like right now in the news cycle, there's a story about a church that's not terribly far from us that had a VBS skit that went global, uh, where like the the past that like they were yelling about killing the devil and shooting guns and all, and it was like people were freaked out, like this is for children, and uh, there's a lot of debate within the church, like what is the role of uh pacifism? Is it heroic to how do you resist the darkness? And if you're curious about that, you can read The Way of Eden, written by Jonathan Dillon, available wherever books are sold. Uh that's not true, it's available at very few places.
RoseYeah, yeah, yeah.
MartinLike 30 libraries around.
JonOh, yeah. I mean, people are picking it up. Um, but um, so when the Bible purposefully doesn't name something, that's an act of warfare. Like in the beginning of Genesis, it doesn't name the sun and the moon, or the stars in the sky, it says the greater light and the lesser light. It's because people were worshiping these things, it's taking the name away, or the pharaoh in Exodus, right? Uh the Egyptians believe that when the name of the Pharaoh was forgotten or defaced, they ceased to exist in the spiritual world. And so there's there's definite warfare going on in the naming of these things or in the not naming of these things. And so the Bible didn't just be like, yeah, we don't know any of it, so we're not going to talk about it. They're making a purposeful choice to emphasize instead something different. They lose. And the king of the universe is going to bring about his will over these powers. Look at what they do, though. When the world encounters these beings, the world that is made by the rebellious sons of God is recorded for you from five on down, a little bit further. So we're going to read verse five, and then we're going to jump to 11 and 13. But that's for time. You guys should totally go read this on your own. So, Rose, if you'll read, I think I put it all together in one block there for you.
MartinWell, real fast, the reason I brought that up about it being cooler to do that is what happens in Genesis 3 when the woman sees the tree that it is good for food and it is desirable to the eye. It's the same thing that's happening with the men of renown, and even in your Bible studies today, when you're focused on, well, how big were the giants, how whatever, whatever. The desire that you have inside of you or from a natural state or whatever is to focus in on these things because they're cool, they're interesting.
JonAbsolutely.
MartinBut that's not the point of the story. Right. And we lose the point of the story because we're going to be able to do that.
JonAnd that's all I'm trying to say. I'm not saying you shouldn't be curious. The mystery is there. Be impressed by it, be wowed by it. Want the answers, but don't forget that the text actually has something it is doing. And abandon that thing in your pursuit of-I mean, I'm the king of this. I've got lists of random stuff I want answers to. And I and I read that the Bible didn't go that direction. Instead, it took me a different way. I now have to submit my will to this, but without losing my curiosity, without losing my longing, but to operate within the way that God has laid out here. And so, what is the world that these beings bring into being? It's laid out for you in verses five on down through thirteen.
RoseThe Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. Now the earth was corrupt in God's sight, and the earth was filled with violence. And God saw the earth, and behold, it was corrupt, for all flesh had corrupted their way on the earth. And God said to Noah, I have determined to make an end of all flesh, for the earth is filled with violence through them. Behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
JonThe earth was filled with violence. It's not filled with life, it's not filled with light, it's filled with violence, with hatred, with evil. So the ancient world remembers heroes, warriors, mighty men. Genesis is saying, no, it was corruption. It was exploitation. It was the strong devouring the weak. So we're not just asking, you know, well, how powerful were they? Instead, I want to ask, what did their power produce?
RoseCan I ask a question before you move away from this? So, with the mandate that the Lord gave Adam and Eve, where he says to be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it, that was man and woman that he told to do that. So at the beginning of Genesis 6, it says, when man began to multiply on the face of the earth and daughters were born to them, well then the sons of God like swoop in and create this new race or something. And so down further, and then like jumping back down here, he says, now the earth was corrupt in God's sight and it was filled with violence because the flesh had corrupted their way on the earth. So was it the flesh, like the man and the woman who had corrupted it, or was it the sons of God that it came into the So the text is about to shift gears and focus solely on the story of humanity.
JonYou are not told what happens to the angelic world. Jude references it, first Peter references it, but the Genesis story ignores it. You're going to see the judgment of God on humanity, which goes back to Martin's point earlier. Humanity is a willing participant in what's taking place.
RoseSo this this is, and I think we talked about this a little bit. This is to me in all of this. Like I can accept the Nephilim and all of all of that, but the the one up here, Genesis 3, uh 6, 3, then the Lord said, My spirit shall not abide in man forever, for he is flesh. His days shall be 120 years. And then down here he says, I have determined to make an end of all flesh, for the earth is filled with violence through them. What is he saying there?
JonHe's saying that I'm not going to permit this to go on. I'm putting a limit on how far I'm going to be pushed, and there's going to come a judgment. And so there is a corruption, a twisting beyond what God intended. They have all left their appointed places and are just running amok to the extent that what they are giving birth to is violence. That's the product that everyone is producing. And Noah's reaction to this is not go raise an army and put down the rebellion. His reaction to this is build an ark and care for the creatures of the earth. There is a return to Eden that's going to come here. He's going to find safety in trees, in the etes that the ark itself is made out of, and he will ride above the waves of chaos, of the flood that's going to sweep across the whole world. But it isn't Noah who does the delivering, it's the Lord Most High. And to the extent, let me pause just here, we're going to get into this. But in the end of it, God hangs his bow in the sky. That's the idea of a the rain bow, is a bow, not like a bow for your neck, but a bow like a warrior's bow. This is the Lord, the warrior, at war with the darkness. So there is a jump here into a purely physical description of what's happening. Kind of like happens after humanity is pushed out of the garden. Apparently, there's still supernatural beings out there, but they're no longer the focus. Like God mentions, sin is crouching at the door, desires to have rule over you, but he's not a speaking character. He exists in the background, like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour.
MartinBut I think you're you're right on it with the to be fruitful and multiply, and they definitely get the second part right of that when they're multiplying. But the fruit that they're producing is really what God is punishing. And if you're saying that there's going to be punishment because the flood is coming, it's the same thing that happened to Adam and Eve. When they willingly partook in what the spiritual world was tempting them with, they get kicked out of the garden. That's God's judgment that is passed down upon them. Now, if you look in Genesis 6, God is passing judgment onto the human beings that are involved in this. To me, that indicates that they have a strong willfulness in partaking in what is happening in Genesis 6. And so it's not just, again, Satan isn't controlling Eve to make her do something she willfully takes, and the the Bible specifically says that.
JonYeah, and so when humanity is involved with these beings, they don't resemble the Lord God that made them. They're not imaging God, they're imaging uh their own fallen heart. Or worse, you know, these other beings. They're they become more violent, they become more corrupt. The influence of these beings is not to improve the world, but it's to twist it further out of line. And so the rebellious spiritual powers reach into humanity and we become less human.
MartinBut the thing that that's a better way to put it, I think, the less human thing you just mentioned, because we always say about the violence and the corruption and all of this stuff. In their intention, they were making the world in a way that they thought was the best way. So they weren't intending to ruin the world, they were intending to reshape the world.
JonWell, I think they're still doing that.
MartinBut that takes you away from your createdness. So when you say you become less human when you do that, because the human nature comes from God. And so whether you like it or not, or whether you think it's perfect or not, doesn't really matter because God created humans in a way that is good, and he said it in Genesis 1. So when you make something of the world opposite of the way that God said it is good, it's hard for me to say that there's violence because it doesn't mean that you're hurting somebody or punching something. You could be building something. And God views that as unrighteousness, which we often show as violence or corruption. And I just I have a hard time using those words because a lot of the corruption eating an apple isn't violent. You know, partaking of the fruit wasn't a violent act from Eve, but it was the worst. Corruption that had ever happened on earth at the time, and maybe still is. And so there's this idea of the unrighteous act that you are doing because God has showed very clearly ways that He wants you to live. And the number one thing is He wants to be in relationship with you because you were created to bear His image. And when you do something against that, the violent word just doesn't really jive with me, but the unhuman, the reversing of creation, that means it has more weight to me, and I think is a little more precise.
JonI can follow that. I'm using the word violent because of the word gibberim.
MartinSure.
JonThe the reference that's specifically mentioned here is that it got to a predatory point.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
JonWhere I don't just take stuff from you and become the ultimate cat burglar. I became, you know what? I'll even take your life. I become lemmick. I didn't just get insulted and react poorly. I will kill you because you have insulted me. I no longer value anyone except myself.
MartinYeah.
JonAnd it's out for number one. And you're right, this can look lots of different ways.
MartinBut I think that's what it means when it says evil continuum. Yeah, everything. The only thought is.
JonWhat's growing in the garden at this point is bad. God is not pleased. He's going to save it. Now, that in mind, the Bible isn't saying that the supernatural world is not allowed to affect the physical. As a matter of fact, we were intentionally made to be together. This you're going to find this in the end of Revelation. You're definitely going to see in the beginning of the Bible. But we find that it is not the job of the angels to breach into our world or our job to breach into the heavens, which you're going to see in the Tower of Babel story. Instead, the person who does this is God. It turns out that the one who is coming, the seed of Eve, is God Himself in human form. That the ultimate expression of this, the true meeting of heaven and earth, is the Lord Himself. Let's go to the book of John, chapter 1 and verse 14.
MartinAnd the word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
JonHe became flesh and dwelt among us. This is the opposite of what these previous beings were doing. He doesn't come to destroy humanity or to rule, uh, enslave, would be a better word. He's coming to deliver. And so what you would expect is God says, you know what, humanity, that was a really bad idea. I'm just done with that. I'm just going to start over with the ones that like me. And instead, he does something different, he doesn't abandon the physical world. He doesn't destroy humanity and replace it with a different type of being. He rescues the souls from hell, from the darkness. He is entering his own creation. And in the story of Jesus, we find, yeah, do people lie about him? Yes. Do people steal from him? Yes. But it ends in violence. The bulls of Bashan that the psalmist talks about, these spiritual beings, these are the same characters that are being talked about here. When they encounter Christ literally in their world, they respond the same way they always have. And humanity was willing participants in what was going on. We are rejecting the kingdom of God. And so when Jesus comes into our lives, we don't become less human, we become more human. We become what we were made to be. We are capable of bearing God's image again. We have a restored mission, the ability to bless and glorify God. We have in Jesus everything that is missing when the creation tries to do it itself. This is a picture of what it looks like when even the most powerful beings reject the way of God and substitute their own will instead.
RoseSo then, is this this particular passage in John, and the word became flesh and dwelt among us? Back with the back to the Nephilim, are they like half human, half spiritual being? Because I know that sometimes I run across things, probably in church history, where there's these controversies whether Jesus was fully divine. Like he was fully God, but he was fully man, you know. Is he in this passage, is that what it's saying? He's not a demi-god. He's not half-s not a half-god.
JonHe's fully God and fully man. Yeah, and so a pagan audience would have been like, oh, are you saying that Jesus is just one of these demi? And that's why the early church had to have these councils. They talked about it because there was a story that had been propagated, and the scripture is working against it. And these stories are bone deep in humanity. And so it took us quite a while. There was a lot of conversations about this. There's still conversations about this. But what the Bible is presenting is not Jesus the Nephilim, it is God in the flesh, King of creation, come in human form. Could he do that? Is that allowed? Answer is he's the king. He can do what he likes. It's surprising, it's unexpected, but so is the flood. They didn't see this coming. It swept away their world. God has a habit of doing things this way. It's going to be wonderful unless you're his foe. And then you're going to be swept away. And so when the Bible describes what Jesus' nature was like, it gives us, especially in Philippians, actually, let's go there. Let's go to Philippians chapter 2, verses 5 through 8.
RoseLet each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interest of others.
JonCan you see how that's kind of the opposite of what the world is doing in the flood? Everyone is pursuing their own wants, their own desires, even to the extent that Martin brings up. However, I can do it, I'm going to do it. It's not just violence, it's anything's on the table. When Jesus comes, his people, we're supposed to esteem others as better than ourselves. We are to uh have the mind of Jesus. Keep going.
RoseHave this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men, and being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
JonHe humbled himself, he becomes obedient even to death. Pay close attention to that movement. He possesses the true divine authority. He's not pretending. He doesn't exploit his status for an advantage. He isn't born into Caesar's household. He's born into a poor working class household in a backwater of the Roman Empire. He limits himself. He is purposefully capable of coming in thunder and glory. Instead, he is born a child. He walks, he's hungry, he takes the form of a servant and he dies. This is everything that Genesis 6 is not. It's also everything that I naturally am not. It shows me not only, oh man, Nephilim were so bad. It shows me, I think I have a problem. And it's a sin problem. What's the problem? I see and I take. It's not just the great and the powerful, it's also doofuses like me who are struggling with the same thing because the message of the darkness is quite simply: take the power, force others to do it your way. The act of humbleness is of great spiritual power because it is an act of resistance to pride, and pride is the chief of sin. It is the root from which it grows.
RoseThis also seems to be a um opposite of Genesis 3, where it says he did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped. Yeah, being God in your own where he tells her, you will be like God, you know, knowing good and evil. And so she sees and takes and she grasps, you know, the fruit. And so this is the opposite. He already was God, but he laid that aside to become flesh.
JonYou're exactly right. Jesus is what's missing from our story and from the angelic story. And so the incarnation is a complete rebuttal to everything that fallen creation has been on both worlds, in the spiritual world and in the physical world. But the incarnation isn't just God doing a good version and the sons of God messed it up. The movements are fundamentally different. One comes to possess and one comes to deliver. God humbles himself, but even in humbling himself, he is highly exalted. He moves through death and takes its keys. There's a really great verse that talks about when Jesus does this, that death gives birth, like the pangs of death are there, and that on the other side there's resurrection. So let's let's take a look at the Gospel of Mark, chapter 10, verses 42 through 45.
MartinAnd Jesus called them to him and said to them, You know that those who are considered rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. But it shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant, and whoever would be first among you must be slave of all. For even the Son of Man came not to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.
JonHere it is. This is the difference, and not just a difference of action, a difference of everything. It's not about control, it's about loyalty and service and blessing. To be a tree planted by waters doesn't dictate where the sheep lay down. Like the tree's not like whacking them with its leaves and things. It just gives. That's what Christ does. He calls to us, and we're to come to him. Now he's more than I am, and so there's an aspect of kingship that I don't have, and there are elements of responsibility that I have. But when I substitute service for control, I have completely lost the script.
MartinBut the sheep lay down where the tree lays its shade.
JonYeah. It's not a forceful thing, but it's a Imagine though, like the tree that wouldn't let the sheep go. Like that's almost like a Harry Potter type thing, like womping willow or something like that.
MartinBut the idea of desiring community and desiring togetherness, whether it's with your fellow man or with your God, understanding the fruit that you produce will allow more people to be close knit with you. And that's what God intended us to do. I mean, the the two commandments are love the Lord your God and love your neighbor as yourself. It's the same idea. The fruit that you produce. Well, let's look at that verse.
JonLet's go to Galatians chapter 5. This is one of my this has become, I believe, an incredibly important passage for our time. Not that it wasn't important before, but it has special significance to the world as I perceive it. And that is the fruit of the spirit. How do you impact the world around you? Not by kidnapping those who are around you, not by killing your enemy, but by providing good and beauty. Look at Galatians 5, 22 through 23.
RoseBut the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such things there is no law. And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
JonThere it is. If I want to be the image of God, to really image him like he made me to, it's not about control, it's about crucifixion. It's about me humbling myself. And so what I see here is not a question of, you know, whether the power is great enough. No power is great enough. Even the most powerful empires, they're all gone. These are some of the most amazing beings that have ever lived that we're talking about, and they don't even get named. Ruth gets named. She gets her own book. None of these guys count. They don't even register. What's going on here? This is the complete reversal of everything that Babylon holds as power, as worth pursuing. And so the question is, what is it you're creating? What are you bringing into being? We're supposed to be growing love and joy and peace and patience and kindness and goodness and faithfulness to be self-controlled and gentle. That's the hope. That's the goal. I see in Jesus everything that's missing from the Genesis 6 story. But I also see Jesus in Genesis 6. He is the one who brings Noah through the flood. He is the one who redeems mankind. He is the one who gives them time still to change. It's not that God woke up one day and was like, wow, I was really grouchy for a couple thousand years there. I think I'm gonna switch gears. He's always been the same. He is the God of gods, the Lord of Lords, mighty and awesome. But before we end, do you guys have any questions about what we've discussed?
RoseI do not. I think we have covered it all.
MartinNailed it.
JonYou heard it here. I can end.