Seventy Nations, One Story

Why does Genesis include a long list of ancient nations, and why does the Bible keep returning to the number seventy? In this episode of The Two Trees Podcast, we explore the Table of Nations, Noah's tragic fall after the flood, and the symbolic world of biblical numbers. Far from being a dry genealogy, Genesis 10 presents a breathtaking vision of humanity united under one Creator, while the recurring pattern of seventy points toward God's sovereign claim over every nation on earth. By tracing this theme from Noah to the Feast of Booths, the seventy elders, Jesus' seventy-two disciples, and beyond, we'll see how Scripture tells one unified story of humanity's rebellion—and God's unrelenting plan to reclaim the nations for Himself.

Transcript

Jon 0:38

Hello, my friends, and welcome to the Two Trees Podcast. I'm here with my main man, Martin Listener.

Rose 0:44

Hey oh.

Jon 0:44

And Mama Moller.

Rose 0:46

I'm not responding to that.

Jon 0:48

But you are Mamma Moller.

Rose 0:49

But I don't call myself that.

Jon 0:51

No, Teddy does.

Rose 0:52

No, he calls me Gamma. Oh, Gamma Moller.

Jon 0:55

Gamma Moller is here.

Martin 0:56

You usually address her as Rosemary.

Jon 0:58

Rosemary.

Rose 0:59

That'd be awesome. Rosemary? I mean, it's my name.

Jon 1:01

It is. Yeah. Zelda is here with us today.

Rose 1:04

That's also my name.

Jon 1:06

Hooray. Yes. Martin, take us in.

Martin 1:09

Oh, you mean the sponsor? You mean another one of our very legitimate sponsors. That we've had so many of them. This one, ladies and gentlemen, is legit. We have from the coolest cucumber this side of Covington. Keith was kind enough. Oh, more alliteration. Yes, uh, buy us a coffee. And in the way of coffee, it is the new microphone that I'm talking into. So you probably hear me sounding a lot more like James Earl Jones than Martin Listener. Uh that's because this new microphone we were able to afford, thanks to the generous donation of Keith.

Jon 1:41

Yeah, Keith uh is a is a good friend. I baptized him a couple years ago, and he's been listening to us struggle with our board and gave us a really, really great donation at a time when we we really needed it. And so I drove out to Sweetwater today, secured a cool microphone that is exactly like all of our other microphones, and uh and now we're awesome.

Martin 2:02

And so uh no offense to all of our other sponsors, but definitely the best one of the year so far has been one that was actually helpful.

Jon 2:11

Well, anyway, we're pushing on in the book of Genesis. We have completed uh the flood saga. And and really, guys, you really obviously you're familiar with the story. It rained a lot, the animals were safe. Hooray! But I want you to see that this isn't just a random uh spewing of facts where somebody, Moses, maybe grabbed a quill and was like, Let me tell you about the time it rained really hard, and everyone was safe in the world.

Martin 2:40

Moses was young at some point, right?

Jon 2:41

Yeah, but not not when he was doing this.

Martin 2:43

Born an old man.

Jon 2:44

No, but he wasn't listening obviously, I saw Prince of Egypt. I'm well aware that he was young.

Rose 2:50

You've also seen the Charlton Heston Ten Commandments. Is that what it's called? It is. He was not young in that, so it's kind of hard to come back from that.

Martin 2:57

But by the time that movie's over, you were as old as Moses. True.

Jon 3:02

Anyway, this isn't the kind of literature that's just slapped together to tell you the story. It's very intentionally organized. And right after the flood story comes one of the most ridiculous chapters in the Bible for most readers. It's called The Table of Nations, Genesis 10. And if you're the guy who dreads being asked to read biblical names, this is the chapter that gives you nightmares. So, Martin, would you please read the entire chapter?

SPEAKER_03 3:33

You guys are both staring at me as John is talking for you.

Jon 3:35

No, no, no. Mart Martin always yells at me because I give you give him the hard ones, is what he says. So uh we're actually not going to read the chapter. If you'd like to go read the chapter, you're more than welcome to. But it is kind of an odd thing, you know, as an American reading this book, and I'm I'm taking a look at this. I'm wondering, why is this here? What do I need to do with this? And it's difficult for us to wrap our minds around because we have lived through uh the age of maps. It's easy to get maps. You can see all of the countries where their squiggles go. Uh, we had the mountainous uh globes, you know, that had like the raised edges, so you'd be like, ah, the Ural Mountains. I can feel them here. Uh and you know, you they're nicely labeled, color-coded. Everyone goes in their nice, neat category. And so we don't look to the Bible to find out where did people come from? Where do they go? Where is their ancestry? Where are their borders? Those are things that to us we look to uh Google. So every once in a while we'll get countries where you, our awesome listeners, are listening in some pretty wild places that I couldn't find off just the name that popped up. Had to go Google it and find out. And so it's always exciting to see where the podcast goes. But the Bible actually has something in it that, as far as I'm aware, is completely unique to the biblical world. This does not exist in the Egyptian hieroglyphic world, it does not exist in the cuneiform tablets, and the cuneiform tablets talk about everything there is to talk about. I mean, there's bazillions of that's an actual scientific um assessment. Right after bazillions. Yep, obviously. I have no idea actually if that's a number, but it it there's lots. There's lots and lots of them. Uh, but neither the Egyptians or the Sumerians have anything like the table of nations in any of their literature.

Rose 5:30

Question. Actually, two questions. First of all, how is the table of nations different from the genealogies that we've been studying? And second question, sometimes like when you say this is unique to scripture, that means it's not really corroborated by another outside source.

Jon 5:47

That's correct.

Rose 5:48

So how come sometimes that is makes it unique and other times it makes it, not in my eyes, but in the eyes of the world, sketchy?

Jon 5:55

Well, it could be considered sketchy, but the mere fact that it exists and is alone makes it unique. There isn't anything else like this in the ancient world. As a matter of fact, it's incredibly frustrating uh when the Egyptians say things like, the sea peoples arrived, and we go, from where? Who are they? And they're like, obviously, you know the sea peoples, and it'll list some of their tribes and it'll give them multiple names. You're like, Are you talking about the same ones that you were earlier, and now you're not calling them the sea peoples? Uh the Greeks are especially famous for this. Everything is a barbarian. Uh, there is this ideal that exists in most of literature of the ancient world. It focuses in on their culture as the place where the gods are working, where civilization exists, and out there are the faceless hordes of who knows what. And so those peoples only become part of their histories when they do something that affects the culture that's writing. No Sumerians are writing about. We heard that up in Scythia on the north end of the Black Sea, there is a people who are like such and such. It doesn't exist. Later on, you're going to get guys like Herodotus who are traveling around and writing things down, but that is way, way further into history than what we're dealing with here. And so people like the Egyptians and the Sumerians, the Assyrians, the Babylonians, they talk about other peoples when they bother them. When they arrive on the doorstep with armies and opinions, and suddenly you're like, Well, maybe you guys should not be so mean to everyone living around you and then be shocked when the barbarian hordes are like, Wow, you have cool stuff. We would like to take it. And every time they just kind of pop out of nowhere. Um, the Bible, though, does not see one culture as the center of the world, and everyone else only exists as they interact with Israel. Genesis chapter 10 is a description of everyone that they were aware of at the time. This is in the Bible to tell you that the Torah is seeing all peoples, all nations, all ethnicities as growing from one trunk. The descendants of Adam, the descendants of Noah, imagers of God and under the authority of God. No other group of writings is doing anything like that. Uh, the Sumerian gods in places like Ugarit and Uratu, they don't care. Those are just who knows what's living in who knows where they don't matter. When you read the biblical story, you're not going to encounter a lot of these names ever again. And so it makes you wonder, you know, well, then why did you bother to tell me this? It's because it's making a statement by existing at all that isn't saying that we're the only ones that matter, but saying all of the nations that exist in all of the world are under the authority of the Most High.

Martin 9:03

Aaron Powell, are you uh insinuating, I guess, that there were other cultures that would view other people outside of their own culture as almost not even human?

Jon 9:11

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And that hasn't gone away. That still exists. Aaron Powell, Jr.

Martin 9:15

But it it's hard for us to kind of see because, I mean, we just had the World Cup here, and we had people from a bunch of different nations, and we all recognize that all of those people are human beings when they come to the United States and stay in our hotels and eat at our restaurants and stuff. There wasn't like a here's a section for you lesser than human people anymore. I understand that that still exists in the world today, but on a general scale, especially in the West, there is an understanding that we're all humans by nature. I mean, the science has at least backed it enough that like we are Homo erectus or whatever.

Jon 9:46

Sure, but but there have been all all throughout even the the West's history horrific treatment of native peoples of all over the globe where they were not seen as human. The Bible never is okay with racism like that. It is opposed to it in all of its various forms. Everybody drowns in the world except Noah and his family. And so all of the human beings that exist on the globe share family. They are the imagers of God. They are given this restart and are expected to walk in fellowship with a God that made them. You don't get that in the Baal cycle. You do you definitely don't get that in the Greek stuff. Like Zeus just kind of exists to father babies and throw thunderbolts and argue with Poseidon, uh, or Hades if you watch the Hercules movie. Uh, but those those gods are doing something incredibly different. What the Bible is setting up is not just a where did our nation come from, but what is humanity itself? And so even though the Bible is giving you this massive list of names, and you're like, oh, I can't even pronounce this. Why do I need to know this? When is this ever going to be necessary to me? You're missing the point of why it's there. It's there to show you that all of humanity is imaging God.

Rose 11:12

We just talked about this. We started um The Magician's Nephew uh last week. We did? Well, some of us did, Jonathan. Some of us didn't bother to show up for book clubs.

Jon 11:22

How come it's mean if I call you Rosemary? But it's not mean if you call me Jonathan.

Rose 11:27

Two things. One, I said, please do call me Rosemary, it's my name. And two, I actually said it sarcastically. Yeah, I weaponize your name and call you Jonathan. You do. So and I am allowed to do that. I am older than you. But moving on, magician's nephew.

Jon 11:41

This is um I'm older than you, so you hush.

Rose 11:44

That's true.

Jon 11:45

I'm older than both of you put together.

Rose 11:49

I'm Mimaw. So anyway, in the Magician's nephew, Jadis does this. Like she will use somebody when they're right in front of her, and then even if they're in the same room as her, they literally literally forgets about them unless she can use them for her own purposes.

SPEAKER_01 12:02

Oh, yeah.

Rose 12:02

So this reminds me a little bit, call to mind. There's more to our conversation than that, but I'm not going to divulge it here.

Jon 12:08

Yeah. For all of you who are out there, I couldn't make it to the book club. We call it St. Anne's, and I couldn't go, and I have been ruthlessly hounded and judged for being a good person, I might add. Uh, but that's okay. But so when we're reading this and you're like, okay, is this supposed to be giving me maps of where all the peoples of the world go? The answer is no, it's not. There was no poll that went out where everybody gave us their names. What would what are your preferred nationality uh titles? Instead, what you have is an ancient scribe who's saying, all of the peoples of all of the worlds, they share a common source, and all of us are accountable to the God that Abraham is going to be in a relationship here shortly. And so what you're looking at here is a powerful theological statement that is the end of the racism debate as far as a follower of God is concerned, in that every person of every nation is accountable to God. Whether they have their own deities or their own opinions, it doesn't matter. They were made to image the Lord, and they have a place and an expectation and are part of God's story. So where do all these countries come from? And how come not all of the nations around the world are referenced? For instance, there's nothing about the Native American tribes on here. There's nothing about, you know, the the empires, the peoples who are living in uh the subcontinent of India or off into China. This is describing the biblical world. This is everything that the author of this text knew about. And so what he's writing here is he's giving them each a place in the story. Now, I also think that it is an accurate reflection of where all these people came from because I'm boring like that. But it doesn't tell us that people didn't keep moving after they reached certain places. And so we know that humanity has been wandering to find cooler places always. It's kind of what we do. Eventually, we run out of land and we do a forest gump, you know, you turn around and run to the other ocean.

Martin 14:19

Or go to the moon.

Jon 14:20

Or go to the moon, you know. Well, that was that was a little out of their way. They didn't stop by, but they all have stories of this. And so what we're dealing with here in the Bible is this chapter that if you try to turn it into a Western tool of, okay, these are all the nations that matter, you've missed the point. Or if you try to say, okay, this is the definitive list of all the human beings that are living on the planet, again, you've missed the point. This is a description of humanity post-flood, a way of showing that all of us image the Lord and are accountable for our actions. Mesopotamians definitely didn't think that. They didn't even really think their gods uh had much to do with these other places. The god had a city, that was their estate, and that's who they cared about. They didn't even really care about other cities that were like ten miles away. They have a very, very closed worldview. The Torah is the exact opposite, it lifts up every soul, every human being, as being precious in the eyes of the Lord. And so then the biblical story then begins to explain to us that after the flood, humanity is placed on the mountain. Noah begins to garden, and things go badly. And so we're going to pick up Genesis chapter 9, verse 20 through 25, and we're going to dig a little bit into some content that we introduced last week.

Rose 15:49

Noah began to be a man of the soil, and he planted a vineyard. He drank of the wine and became drunk and lay uncovered in his tent. And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father and told his two brothers outside. Then Shem and Japheth took a garment, laid it on both their shoulders, and walked backward, and covered the nakedness of their father. Their faces were turned backward, and they did not see their father's nakedness. When Noah awoke from his wine and knew what his youngest son had done to him, he said, Cursed be Canaan, a servant of servants shall he be to his brothers.

Jon 16:24

So there's some weird things in this verse. First of all, um this seems like a very weird story in the in a couple ways. First of all, everyone's a little disappointed in Noah for getting drunk on the job and kind of laying around naked. Uh, but why is Canaan the one who is cursed and not Ham? Where did this character come from? And it comes out of the ancient world's politeness. There are certain things that you're not supposed to say in mixed company, and there are certain people who it is rude to say mean things about anyway. Like in America, you would lose a lot of credibility talking trash about someone like Rosa Parks. You know, sweet lady stood up against the man, made a huge difference in the world. And if you came across like being mean-spirited to somebody like that, well, people are just gonna look down on you. The ancient world had very strong opinions about how you spoke to your elders, and even stronger opinions about how you spoke about your ancestors. You don't just trash them or use their names lightly. And a lot of these places develop ancestor cults, like they're worshiping their ancestors. And so what you're reading here is clear through ancient language, but reads weird to a Westerner. And it has to do with this expression here, the nakedness of the father. I'm just gonna let you guys know this is gonna be super uncomfortable, so just deal with it. It's in the Bible. Noah is passed out drunk. He has taken the fruit of the tree and is plastered. He's laying around drunk, and something happens. His son, Han, comes in and something occurs. And so, in order to understand this, this expression, the nakedness of the Father, is actually used multiple times in the Bible. You're gonna find it in Leviticus, you're gonna find it in Leviticus 18, and in Leviticus 20, you're gonna find it in Deuteronomy 22, you're gonna find it in Deuteronomy 27, you're gonna find it in the book of Ezekiel. It is used lots of times in the Old Testament, and it never means what you think it means. So would you read for me Leviticus 18, verse 8?

Martin 18:52

You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father's wife, it is your father's nakedness.

Jon 18:58

So to say the nakedness of the father is to say your mother. This is a polite way of referring to the shame of your mother. So even in the ancient world, you didn't talk trash about people's moms. It was out of bounds. There are expressions in the Bible like covering your feet, which means to drop your drawers and use the restroom, uh, because it's kind of even that, like we kind of use silly phrases about that, because it's an awkward, shameful thing to do in public. And so what happens here is that Noah is in a helpless state. He has abused the fruit of the tree, and apparently he has given it to his wife, and she is defenseless as well. Maybe she's drunk, it doesn't say. It could just be that Noah isn't there to protect her and to defend her. But just like in the Genesis story, you find a couple, the couple, the priests of the Lord on the mountain of the garden, and horrible family trauma is going to be the very first action that's taking place. And so Noah becomes a man of the soil, he's changed by the fruit of the tree. It results in nakedness and shame. Suddenly, you know, we're looking at there's a covering and then there's a curse, right? Noah's other sons come in and they cover him up. Remember, what does God do to Adam and Eve afterwards? He makes them garments, and then after this, there's the curse, and they're exiled from the garden. In this instance, humanity's close-knit family begins to unravel. If you're curious about why this happens, it has to do with power and the defiling of kingship. You can go back and read the story of Absalom in the Bible. Go read what Absalom does when he takes over Jerusalem. It has to do with shaming his father and uncovering the nakedness of his fathers. This was a way of saying, I am now the ruler of our people. Where Ham learned this behavior? Probably in the pre-flood world, where the world was really nasty and evil and everything was as bad as it could possibly be. And I'm not going to get into this in depth, but what I want you to see is from that point on, the world begins to crack and crumble again. Remember, Cain left and went and made his own city. I doubt very seriously that Ham and his family were just like, you know what? Sorry about that. Uh, what time's dinner? Uh I'll be over this evening. Uh, there's there's a splitting that takes place here and a nation that is brought into being, the world of Canaan.

Martin 21:52

I'm glad that you mentioned the idea of where Ham learned that behavior and the idea of what it was for, because Ham is trying. To become the patriarch of the family. He's trying to become the one that's in charge. And if you look at the Genesis 3 passage, Satan in the I wills of Satan is trying to become the patriarch of creation. And that's where the corruption happens with that. So I was I was very curious thinking through this, you know, like not that I'm questioning God and asking why would something happen or not happen, but it seems just really silly that like you completely redo the earth and then have the exact same thing happen again. But I think it's because the the underlying basis is the same, wanting to become higher than somebody else. And so the original sin which led to Adam's sin, you know, Satan's idea leading to Adam's sin is the same idea that's behind Ham and his actions with this. Trying to become the one that's in charge, trying to become the one that is above everybody else and makes all the rules. And that really clarified it in my mind when you were talking about how he got that kind of thought to even come through his mind.

Jon 22:52

Yeah, I suppose it could have been, you know, the the Bible doesn't give us a ton of detail, but going back to something you said in a previous episode, Martin, what does it mean when it says all the thoughts of their mind were only wickedness continually? This is what it means. Everyone saw and took.

Martin 23:08

Yeah.

Jon 23:09

And so here you see Cain, not Cain, well you do see Cain through the lens of Ham. And there's incest that takes place. Apparently, he impregnates his mother. And the child that is born of this union is Canaan, and he's set apart. And you so when the word Canaan pops up later in the text, you're supposed to be like, oh.

Martin 23:30

I know where that's from.

Jon 23:31

That's probably not going to end up well. The these guys uh are the fruit of a really messed up family. Now, that having been said, where you come from doesn't much matter to God. He is perfectly willing to accept anybody so long as they lay down their right and serve him.

Martin 23:50

I just wonder where this came from. Because when you read the Genesis 3 passage, there's an obvious temptation that comes from, you know, the evil one or the tempter. But in this passage, there doesn't seem to be anything that is coaxing Ham to do what he did, other than maybe his own desires. And again, with me, that just doesn't sit right, that he's just evil.

Jon 24:12

Well, I'm gonna be honest and say I'm really glad there's not more here because it's super gross and upsetting to even know that it happened.

SPEAKER_01 24:22

Sure.

Jon 24:22

Let alone like to be like, all right, here's ten chapters about more of this. And and the Bible doesn't shy away from it. This is one of the ways that the Bible treats its characters differently than a lot of ancient texts. It it is polite and it's not needlessly grotesque, but it doesn't shy away from showing its heroes in a negative light. You don't read this story and think, wow, Noah, the problem is ham. The problem is that the priests of the garden fail again, that there is this evil in the heart of man. And even though the world has been washed clean, the heart of man is still desperately wicked.

Martin 25:02

And that kind of answers the question I was going to mention, though, because when you're comparing this to the Genesis passage, when you're talking about all these Noah is the man of the soil, changed by the fruit of the tree, uh, resulting in nakedness and shame, all this comes from the Genesis passage. But the one thing that's different, I think, is the temptation. Genesis 3 makes a big deal about the temptation from Satan, but this Genesis 9 passage has nothing about. Yeah, that's true. And so when you're looking at what is the temptation, it's because that's not really the point.

Jon 25:28

As a matter of fact, you kind of get two temptations. Like Noah abuses the vine and he becomes drunk. Ham abuses his mother and becomes evil. Well, or was evil. But you're right, it doesn't give you much of a lead up to it at all. It just kind of says that it's there.

Martin 25:45

The focal point of Genesis three is about Adam and Eve and what they're doing and not doing correctly. But all of a sudden, I'm automatically entranced on what Ham is doing wrong in this situation. But that's not really what the Bible's trying to tell you about, is the it's the Noah situation. Like what is going on in Noah's life and what is he doing in correctly?

Jon 26:03

Right. And so when you read the Noah story and you get to the point, it ends not with God condemning Ham and saying, All right, Noah, because you sinned and because Ham sinned, you guys go to opposite ends of the mountain, you're out of here. Instead, what you get is there are going to be nations. Canaan is cursed. He's going to serve his brothers. And then chapter 10 starts, and you have where did all the nations come from? And so, whereas before, Martin, the emphasis is on the individual. What happened to all of humanity and these people? The question that's being teed up here is why is it that the nations of the world don't get on? What broke if we're all one family? What's the problem here? And the problem is that our hearts are twisted even without any help from anybody else. We're perfectly capable of being disgusting people all on our own. And so then it's going to launch directly into this long list of nations, who begat who and where they go. So let's take a look and read Genesis chapter 10 and verse 1.

Rose 27:13

These are the generations of the sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth, and sons were born to them after the flood.

Jon 27:20

So already there should be a word in there that pops off the page at you. It's that word Toledo. Generations. This phrase is used five times before the flood or before the Abraham story, and five times after the Abraham story for a total of ten. Ten is an incredibly significant artistic number in the Bible.

Rose 27:46

Sorry, is that five and five in Genesis alone? Or just okay, gotcha.

Jon 27:50

Just in the book of Genesis. So when you have something that's set up in tens, that was an artistic way of referencing the creation story. Because God spoke ten times. And at the end of the speeches of God, he sits enthroned above the nations. And so God could have given Moses twenty-seven laws, right? Instead, he gives him ten. Not because God couldn't think of any more. As a matter of fact, it turns out that there's more laws coming after that. But he specifically gives them this number because the number had a symbolic meaning to the people. It was a way of teaching without saying the words. So when you see things that are set up in sets of ten, it means something. And so when you read through this, you're going to take a look, okay, I've got this list of nations, most of whom are hard to pronounce, and they don't use these names anymore. The languages have shifted, the people have married new couples and developed new cultures, and all of these things go on. But what you have here is a list of all of the peoples, the major movers and shakers of the biblical world. There are, depending on what translation you read, either 70 of them or 72. The Mesoretic text says 70. The Septuagint says 72. One of them counts a little bit differently, but it's the same names. It's just there's a little bit of a difference as far as what counts as a separate people group. Okay, so I'm not going to get into this, but there's the the number's the same. There's 70 or 72. And so we're thinking, ah, it has to be either one or the other because we are scientists in our core, and there's a difference between $70 and $72, or 70 nations and 72 nations. The Bible has to pick one or the other. And the answer is it didn't do that. It uses both patterns because the list is not the point, it's what the list does. When you see a list of 70 or a list of 72, it unites all the peoples of the world into one story. And so we use numbers to measure things. That's the primary function of numbers. Ancient peoples have no problem using numbers to mean things. The number itself could be a character, could have a theological implication all on its own. One of my favorite places that I have ever seen this used is in one of the best books ever written. It's called The Fellowship of the Ring by Tolkien. At the beginning of the book, Fellowship of the Ring, in case you're wondering, best book of the trilogy. It's awesome. Also in the movie, best movie of the trilogy. If you think differently, that's because you are foolish. But it's okay.

Rose 31:04

I just think that's really a bold statement.

Jon 31:06

It is the truth. There is the return of the king. Which is nice.

Rose 31:11

It's the point of the story.

Jon 31:14

Absolutely.

Rose 31:16

Moving on.

Jon 31:17

Or it's all about the fellowship. I love the fellowship. I I I grew up when the movies came out, changed my life. Read the books religiously as a kid, but I was always really interested in the party that Bilbo throws at the beginning of the book. Bilbo is the main character from The Hobbit. He kind of starts the story of the Fellowship at the Ring, and he is 111 years old, 111. And he has a nephew named Frodo, because obviously, if you're a Hobbit, your names have to rhyme. His nephew is 33 years old for a combined total of 144 guests or pe ages that they've lived. So when they have the party, they only invite 144 people. This is there to represent their combined ages. They didn't think to themselves, Bilbo only knows 144 people. That's so strange. Instead, they recognize we are all members of this party, but we're also here to represent the family of Baggins, who's having this gigantic party. There actually is a term that means 144. It is a gross. And that is uh 12 dozen. One dozen, one dozen, one dozen, one dozen, twelve times. That is a dozen dozens. That's that's what it equals out to. And so you look at this, it's a way of saying, we are important. Come to our party, and I want each of you to represent one of the years of our lives. You are more than just what you recognize. We still have other numbers in our culture that are more than they appear. We say three strikes and you're out, even if we're not talking about baseball. We would say thanks a million, and I don't really intend to count the thanks that I'm giving to you. We even talk about in political terms, you know, the 1%, right? And where the people recognize, oh, you're talking about the financial disparity between the classes of people. Uh if you've ever read Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, uh, the ultimate answer to the ultimate question of everything is 42. 42.

Rose 33:31

It's that book is so weird.

Jon 33:33

It is so great, though. These are kind of things that the ancient world would have felt very familiar with. One of the strangest ones to people who aren't from the United States. We just had a lot of you guys over here for the World Cup, and you experienced our sporting arenas. America loves sports passionately, and we have a ridiculous amount of time and energy spent not on our professional sports, although we love those two, but on the collegi level, the colleges as they fight for supremacy. They have these conferences. And Martin, I I I knew I needed this for you because you you probably would have brought it up if I didn't. But there are conferences, not one conference, but many conferences across the country. One of my favorites is the Big Ten. And it has 18 teams in it. And so even though we say the Big Ten, I that's not actually a reference to the number of teams that are in the conference. We have, if you if you don't like the Big Ten, maybe you like the Big Twelve. It has 16 schools in it. One of the weirdest ones is the ACC, right? The Atlantic Coast Conference. And it has members who are nowhere close to the Atlantic Coast. But it started there. And so people recognize that even though the name is a particular thing, it means more than the number itself.

Martin 35:04

So another sports reference for this is Michael Jordan. Michael Jordan was number 23, most famously 23. He went and played baseball. When he came back, he was number 45. And there is some stories of uh a game where everybody where someone said that 45 is not 23, indicating that there's two different personalities of Michael Jordan simply depending on what jersey he's wearing. And it was in the Eastern Conference Finals. The next day he comes out and the Chicago Bulls had to pay an enormous amount of money because he wore the wrong uniform. He brought out Michael Jordan number 23 and he dropped 45 points against the team. Indicating that twenty forty-five is still twenty-three. So, but again, it's just this idea where there's a persona that is applied to the number, not the human being behind the number.

Jon 35:50

Yeah, and we even like we retire numbers. Like no one else is allowed to wear this number. Even like this year, Patrick, uh, my oldest son, was playing baseball, and at the beginning of the year they all get to pick their number, and they all kind of huddle up and are like, okay, I'm gonna pick this number because this guy or this number, and that they're they're linking the story of Mickey Mannell, Joe DiMaggio, those guys with their baseball.

SPEAKER_03 36:13

What year do you think it is?

Jon 36:14

Obviously, it's 1927.

SPEAKER_03 36:16

Ellie Day La Cruz, and that's it.

Jon 36:18

Uh no, I I have different opinions. Uh but you know, you look at these, you're like, okay, the numbers. Now, I'm the kind of person who when people start doing math, my eyes glaze over. Like, if you're ever at a table and someone is like, you know, doing math in their head to get the tip, I just pretend to do the math until someone says it. So if you're waiting for me to chip in, it ain't gonna happen. Um, I don't love numbers. This isn't something that comes naturally to me, but this is something that the ancient world recognized as an important way of telling stories and recognizing what the gods or God was up to. And you're thinking, oh no, only pagans would do this, right? Well, let me give you a story from the life of a guy called David. Now, David became the king of a united Israel. Took him a very long time to do it, but he did get it done. And he wants to make his city the new capital city of the United Nation, the city of Jerusalem. And so he's bringing the Ark of the Covenant all the way from its house to Jerusalem. It's a big deal. David is very excited about it, and in his eagerness to get it there, he must have paid for one-day shipping because they put it on a cart instead of carrying it, which honestly is how you would treat something special, something sacred. They were treating it well, but they were ignoring the rules that God had placed around the Ark of the Covenant. And something horrible happens, the Ark kind of tips over, a guy tries to save it, and God strikes him dead. I mean, it is bad. And so what does everybody do? They leave it alone and they back off and they're like, whoa, God is real mad about this. It's kind of like, you know, you throw a rock in a hornet nest or something, everyone scatters. Like you come back later hoping that the hornets have left you alone, or they've forgotten. When David comes back to get the Ark of the Covenant, he's very anxious about it. Is God still angry with us for having moved the Ark of the Covenant? And so you can imagine he goes out there with all of the priests who he has a high opinion of, right? You've been praying a lot this week, right? I have, yeah, David. Well, you can come with me. You, I don't know about you, buddy. You make questionable decisions, you stay here. I can't take anybody with me that God isn't going to like the look of. And so that he's acting as an emissary, approaching the King of Kings, the God of gods, and fetching the Ark of the Covenant. When they get to where the Ark of the Covenant is, in 2 Samuel chapter 6, verses 13 through 14, this is what happens.

Martin 38:58

And when those who bore the ark of the Lord had gone six steps, he sacrificed an ox and a fattened animal. And David danced before the Lord with all his might, and David was wearing a linen ephod.

Jon 39:11

Now everybody likes the part where it's like, yeah, David danced with all his might, and you're like, Boogie on King David. Uh, and people even get excited about this linen ephod. He's dressed incredibly well. He's dressed in priestly attire, the fanciest gear that he could get, because he's honoring the God who he's coming to serve. And so we emphasize that, but people skip over this weird part back at the beginning. Why didn't David offer the sacrifices before they started moving? Like you would think that if you're trying to make God happy before you move the ark, you better get in on his good side first before you do something that may upset him. Offer the sacrifices right away and then move the Ark of the Covenant and see what happens. Instead, David waits until they take six steps. And on the seventh step, he says, Okay, God is okay with what we're doing. Why does he think that? Did God descend from heaven and give him like the big thumbs up sign? Good job, David. I appreciate your effort. Uh, did a prophet show up and be like, I just want you to know, David, we're very appreciative of your respectful attire and the way that you've gone about this this time. Uh, it is now safe to move the Ark of the Covenant. No. David infers this from the number, the fact that they have now taken six steps, which is a number connected with the fallen nature of man. On the seventh step, he throws a party. The Bible does this in other places with sevens and seventies, because there was a meaning to the people who wrote this book. If you're thinking, yeah, but I wouldn't do that, this is the part where I say, I'm so sorry, but I don't much care if you would do that or not. You weren't there. Personally, I wouldn't do this. I have never once stopped my car after going six miles to have a small prayer service. I'm gonna turn my Christian music all the way up and have a little prayer and fasting time here because I went six miles and now God is pleased with me. It's never even entered my mind until this moment that that was even a possibility. But in David's worldview, it was. This is how they talk. And what we're trying to do is bridge the culture gap between the ancient reader and a modern book, and so or a modern reader, or an ancient book and a modern reader. You know who you are. And so when we find this list of 70 nations, or 72, depending on what cultural uh selection you're picking from, you need to recognize that this number is used in many different ways after this to refer to the nations. When the Bible lists the Canaanite nations of Israel that uh the tribes are supposed to go to war with, sometimes it gives a list of seven, but usually it gives a list of six. These are the bad guys that you're gonna fight in there. And then when you read the story, it turns out there's more than six evil tribes living there. Did God just like, oh, I forgot about those guys? Surprise, there's more ites in there than you thought that there were. No, by using the number six, it meant all of the bad. It was a way of linking this. You're gonna most famously get this in uh the New Testament with uh the number of the Antichrist, 666. I was at uh the Casey's, uh, which is a gas station here in town, and my total came up to six dollars and sixty-six cents. And I told you guys this story before, but the lady at the counter made me buy something else.

Rose 43:06

Back again.

Jon 43:07

She wasn't gonna like risk it. She's like, either you put it back or I'm gonna break it into two purchases, but I'm not not racking, I'm gonna have that floating around in here. And there was this awkward moment where it rang up and I looked up and she looked up, and it was just weird. We recognize this number means more than it seems to, or like the 13th floor in a hotel. Numbers, even if you're not a number person like I'm not, they have significance to them. And so, what do I do with the number 70 when the Bible points it out? Obviously, there are going to be times where there just is 70 of something. But there are also times where the Bible, who is famously sketchy on details, points out there are exactly 70 of something or 72 of something. Something when the Bible is pointing at something, it is a good rule to ask, why do you want me to look at that? My son Patrick and I, we would drive around and he'll point out the window. And if he's pointing at something, I want to know what he's pointing at. I don't just assume he's having an arm spasm. I want to know, okay, he sees something. He's trying to draw my we we do a lot of bird watching. Ohio has awesome, awesome fields open. And so there's a lot of birds here that I didn't see growing up, uh, a lot of cool falcons and hawks and things like that. And so he'll often point them out and be like, Dad, what's that? And so I'm looking for the thing he's pointing at. When the Bible highlights there are 70 of these, there is significance to the number, just like there is with 10 or 6 or 3.

Martin 44:53

Is there more significance if the number is accurate? Like you just mentioned how they'll list off six uh different tribes that they're going into to say that they're the bad guys, and then all of a sudden there's more than that number or less. But it's a significance of showing if they're on the right side or the bad side. But is there a significance uh is it of more significance if the number is an accurate number? Like the list of nations is going to list off all 70, so you know exactly you know what you're talking about. This isn't just a number to show the you know uh the all I can say if it's significance, but isn't just a number to show what we're trying to say, like seven and ten.

Jon 45:31

Oh no, well it kind of is because as those tribes are getting further away, like people continue to outpast that. It's not a definitive list of all the nations, it's the nations of the biblical world.

Martin 45:41

So it's the same idea as the six from the other.

Jon 45:44

The number itself could be uh an accurate list of exactly this many things. But if that's the case, very rarely will the Bible point that out. Like I just assume that you're a good counter. If you're pointing out there's seventy of something, you're probably connecting my mind to the rule of God, to the expectations that God has over the nations, and that there is some sort of larger world uh connection to the use of the number 70.

Martin 46:16

So you may not know this uh answer, but is there any part of the Bible where it lists the exact number and it happens to be a number that's the same? Oh, yeah, absolutely.

Jon 46:24

That happens a ton. But usually there's dual purpose there. Like Jesus chooses twelve disciples and then names them.

Martin 46:32

Right.

Jon 46:33

Like Judas checks out, and so they're like, listen, guys, we got to get a twelve. And so then people debate whether like they should have waited for Paul or does Matthias really count? Um, and so you're recognizing, like, yeah, there's exactly twelve, but why is there exactly twelve? Why does Jesus choose exactly that number? Because the choosing of that number is there to carry theological weight.

Rose 46:58

Well, he also sends out seventy-two.

Jon 47:01

That doesn't happen till later in my episode outline, Rose.

Rose 47:06

We did not actually know that. But I was gonna say the 72 and the Septuagint.

Jon 47:10

Jesus is the God of God, the Lord of Lord. I'm still gonna go there. But it seems like when Jesus sends out his disciples, there's more than 12 of them. He sends out preachers and he picks 72. That's not an act, it's not like just happen to have that many. An ancient reader of a Jewish, uh, an educated Jewish person seeing the number 70 would have recognized that just like the nations of the world should have been loyal to the God of gods and they messed it up, now there are 72 messengers set out to begin this reaching out of the gospel of Jesus. And so, yeah, absolutely. That's not Jesus just accidentally ending up with a specific number.

Martin 47:54

It almost seems that, you know, the life of Jesus is almost the reverse action of the Old Testament. A lot of the Old Testament is saying, like, here's the number that I wish it was, even though it's probably more because I'm trying to show, you know, significance in the number. And Jesus is saying, okay, I'm gonna build my ministry off of those numbers instead of just being willy-nilly about it.

Jon 48:16

Is that is that kind of more of a representation? You're you're gonna find this a lot with specific types of literature, like specifically if it's a historical document like the life of David. Um normally if it gives you a list of numbers, it just means there were that many of the thing. But if you're dealing with apocalyptic literature or poetry, those have different rules of reading. Uh, and so it could just be saying a lot, like saying thanks a million. Or if it says David, you know, he chose six or five stones out of the stream, it's probably telling you that's exactly how many of those he picked up. You're also gonna find, though, that there is in genealogies uh that, and I talked to you guys about this before, you can skip people in genealogies so that you end up with a certain number. And sometimes it's combinations of numbers, like 14 is double sevens, or 20 is double tens, or 70 is ten seven times. And so you can see like what you've done there is you've taken the significance of the number seven and the significance of the number ten, which is the kingdom of God, and seven being the number that's holy, and saying, Where does God's kingdom run? To every corner of the globe. Wherever the nations have gone, they are under the authority of the Most High. And so combining these numbers combines the ideas, instances where this happens. Let me show you a couple of these. This is Genesis 46, 26 through 27.

Rose 49:51

All the persons belonging to Jacob who came into Egypt who were his own descendants, not including Jacob's sons, wives, were sixty-six persons in all. And the sons of Joseph who were born to him in Egypt were two. All the persons of the house of Jacob who came into Egypt were seventy.

Jon 50:09

So here I have sixty-six double sixes. Six is typically a bad number, and there's a separation of family here. Now, if you've read the day the Joseph story, this is the exciting conclusion where the family's coming back together through the faithfulness of the wronged son, the family is united, and when they come together, there are bum but 70 of them. That's Joseph, Mrs. Joseph, and two babies. Uh, that's what you've got going on. So what is that the exact number? I think so. And I think when you look at this, why does the Bible point it out? Do I need to know that there are exactly 70? I don't. As a matter of fact, I don't really know what to do. It's not like I'm taking t-shirt orders for the family reunion, and I have to know, well, we're feeding exactly 70 people, so we're gonna need this much mac and cheese and this much falafel. I don't know what they're bringing. But the idea is why did you tell me the number? Where are the descendants of Joseph going?

Martin 51:10

But to build on your point even further, it says not including Jacob's sons' wives. So it's almost like trimming the fat to get to the number it was.

Jon 51:19

Yeah. So the the author of the story in Genesis, which by the way, same book, is playing by the ancient rules. When the Bible gives you a specific number, ask why.

Martin 51:30

It's almost like when someone says, you can get the word John from Martin by just removing the R T N, adding a few other letters, rearranging them, and then you get John.

Jon 51:39

Yeah. So when I read this, I'm like, okay, so they're leaving uh the land of Israel and they're going into Egypt. All of a sudden, what story do you want me to remember? 70. That who where is God King? Everywhere. Among the nations, wherever Israel goes, they are the children of God, and they are to carry the name of God wherever they go. So much so that Moses calls the Lord, Who are you? He says, Well, I'm the God of your fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. When they leave, they take Joseph's bones back. They connected this story to their position among the nations. Uh, this is from the book of Numbers, chapter eleven, sixteen and seventeen.

Martin 52:23

Then the Lord said to Moses, Gather for me seventy men of the elders of Israel, whom you know to be the elders of the people, and officers over them, and bring them to the tent of meeting, and let them take their stand there with you.

Jon 52:37

Now, what are the qualifications for being an elder here? Does it say?

Martin 52:41

Uh that you know that they're elders.

Jon 52:43

Yeah, you know they're elders. How did they get that position? Doesn't say. What were their names? Doesn't say. How tall were they? Did they get name tags? What did they do while they were there? None of that's given.

Rose 52:53

Well, they are men, so we have that.

Jon 52:55

You do have that. Uh so they're seventy men, just like in the table of nations, seventy fathers. All of a sudden, when Israel is back on the mountain and about to establish a covenant with the Lord, what do we find? Seventy comes back into play. And you're like, Yeah, but you forgot uh two people Moses and Aaron. Keep reading.

Martin 53:18

And I will come down and talk with you there, and I will take some of the spirit that is on them, on you, and put it onto them, and they shall bear the burden of the people with you, so that you may not bear it yourself.

Jon 53:29

So all of a sudden, yeah, everyone's being lifted up into a relationship with God and having responsibilities that's here. Israel is to be a nation of priests, and these are the elders of the people. This is a reversal of what we would expect that we would be getting. Israel hasn't behaved itself very well, and neither have the nations, and neither have we. And if you think about it, where does Abraham come from? He's not one of the nations that list it in this text. He comes out of the nations. There isn't one of the sons of Noah who is singled out as the faithful line. All of the nations go astray, and God calls a people out of the nations and makes a new nation. This is significant, and it's referencing when we use the number 70. Here's a couple more. This is Judges 8, verse 30.

Rose 54:28

Now Gideon had seventy sons, his own offspring, for he had many wives.

Jon 54:33

So the emphasis here is on his being blessed. So Gideon, if you haven't read Gideon's story, it actually goes past the cool battle scene and it ends in flames. Does God bless Gideon even though he is faithless? Yes. God is faithful even when we are faithless. How do you know that? Because Gideon has 70 sons, not 70 kids, but again, like he is a nation maker. He is like Noah. This is more than he deserves. And when you read this, especially if you're the kind of person who has never been able to have any children, like my wife and I didn't have children for we just thought we couldn't until the Lord blessed us late in life. When I would see these people and they're running around, they've got kids everywhere, and they don't seem to love any of them, it broke my heart. I want a I want a busload of them, and you don't seem to care at all. This is a gift that's given to Gideon, but it's also coals of fire that are heaped on top of his head. And so when you see that God has blessed Gideon with 70 sons, you're supposed to ask, why? Why? What does that tell me about Gideon, and what does that tell me about God? And what it tells me is that God treats me not the way I deserve to be treated, and thank God for it. Because if I were to be given what I deserve, it would be real, real bad. Here's another one. This is 2 Kings chapter 10, verse 1.

Martin 56:08

Now Ahab had 70 sons in Samaria.

Jon 56:11

If you're not familiar with old Ahab, not a nice guy. So again, Ahab serves as a foil to God's faithfulness. This is an example of Abraham or Abe Ahab, right? His dynasty feels secure. I've got 70 backups. By the way, none of them survive him. When Ahab dies, so does his dynasty, even though he had 70 backups. This comes. Oh, go ahead, Rose. Did you have a thought?

Rose 56:43

No, I do not.

Jon 56:43

Oh, excellent. Jeremiah 25, verse 11.

Rose 56:46

This whole land shall become a ruin and a waste, and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon 70 years.

Jon 56:52

Seventy years. So in the Exodus story, there's 70 elders. There's 70 members of the Sanhedrin later. In the Gospels, Jesus sends out his 72 teachers. There's the Septuagint connection there. One of the most ongoing, I think, interesting connections of this is in the book of Numbers. Numbers chapter 29, verses 12 through 34 describes a festival called the festival of booths, where they are celebrating God being faithful to them as they wandered in the wilderness. And the sacrifices that are given on this day take place over seven days in the seventh month. So it's like a celebration of the number seven. And it starts out on the very first day they sacrifice thirteen bulls. That's a weird number. What happens the next day? Twelve bulls. What happens the next day? Eleven bulls. What happens the next day? Ten bulls, then nine bulls, then eight bulls. And on the last, on the seventh day, they sacrifice seven bulls for a total of bum but a bum seventy. It's like a countdown. The whole festival, the whole sacrificial system is kind of a celebration of what the number means. And so if we're reading this, we would get hyper-focused on let's count out exactly 13. God only wants 13 on day one. And yeah, that's true, but the reason you're counting out 13 is because the number means something. There's a combination of 70 bulls. In Jewish tradition, it explicitly connects those 70 bulls with the 70 nations of Genesis chapter 10. Even if we're cautious about reading the later interpretation directly back into Numbers, the numerical correspondence is striking. This comes out of the book of Zechariah, chapter 14, and verse 6. And it says, After the great day of the Lord, the surviving nations come back to Jerusalem to celebrate the Feast of Booths. So everyone who survives, out of all of the nations, they're going to come back and they're going to party in Jerusalem because Jesus is the King of Kings, the God of gods, Lord of hosts. That's what the celebration is about. So that creates, in my mind, and in the minds of the ancient authors, a really remarkable, beautiful, artistic connection. The 70 nations in Genesis 10 are referenced in these 70 bulls. By the way, you remember in the Psalms, it talks about he is encompassed by the bulls of Bashan. This there's, man, once you dip your toe into like what does symbolism mean? How were ancient peoples telling stories? It gets wild. The number 70 becomes a way of talking about all of the nations of creation. It carries the idea of mankind's rebellious worship of other gods, and the God above all of them has the right to rule and will eventually triumph. This is given to us beautifully in the end of Psalm 82, in the eighth verse. Would you read that?

Martin 1:00:32

Arise, O God, judge the earth, for you shall inherit all the nations.

Jon 1:00:38

All the nations. That's what God is sending us out for in the Great Commission. Take the gospel where? To Jerusalem, to Jem to Samaria, and to the uttermost parts of the earth. That's what the church is. It's people of every nation, every tongue, the ethnos of the world united back in a relationship with Jesus. And so if you're an old testament scribe, scholar, dude, person, that's what the number 70 meant to you. And so when you see this pop up in the literature, don't just think, boy, I better get some colored pencils and draw a map. The theology of this is pointing to Jesus, to God as King, as the king of the nations. Now, I have been criticized in the past for having ended episodes without having given time for people to ask questions. Do you have any?

Rose 1:01:41

I do not.

Jon 1:01:43

I'm good. Because it's the end of the episode, and I did so good explaining it that they had no questions. Or I bored the daylights out of them, and they are ready for something else. Anyway, I love you guys. Thank you guys for listening. Jesus, remember that he is the God of gods, the Lord of Lords, mighty and awesome.