How to Use Revision Tools Like the Story Authority You Already Are with Brannan Sirratt

When to use frameworks to solve your story problems—and when to trust yourself and lean on your own story authority. 

You’ve heard of Save the Cat! Story Grid. Blueprint for a Book.

These are all frameworks designed to help you edit a novel. If you don’t know these names, I bet you know others—Hero’s Journey, Freytag’s Pyramid, 7 Point Story Structure, Dan Harmon’s Story Circle, there are dozens more.

Each one promises that if you use it, you’ll be able to craft better stories. And because we want to write good books, the writers I know are constantly learning new frameworks and analyzing their stories through them.

I use frameworks like these in the editing process, after the first draft is already written. But I’ve seen many writers use them earlier, even before they begin writing.

It’s a tempting thought, right? What if you could use these frameworks to solve your story problems and make writing your first draft so much easier? What if you could build a story from the ground up that already fulfills everything those frameworks require from the very first draft?

Would that shortcut the creative process? Would it help you create a better story faster?

Or would it get in the way of your storytelling? Are there moments in the creative process when frameworks like these might just do more harm than good?

I’m a big fan of storytelling frameworks. But today, we’re taking a hard look at them to see what they offer, what they can’t do for us, and how to tap into your true authority as the writer of your own story.

Links mentioned in the episode:

• Find B is for Book Coach on Substack »

Further listening:

• Ep. 79: Ask This Question When You’re Overwhelmed by Your Story
• B is for Book Coach: How to Take the Drama Out of Cutting and Rewriting Content
• B is for Book Coach: Comparison Isn't a Thief

Transcript

0:00

you've heard of Save the Cat Story Grid Blueprint for a book. These are all frameworks designed to help you edit a novel. If you don't know these names, I bet you know others. Hero's Journey, fray Tags, pyramid. Seven point story structure. Dan Harmon's story circle. There are dozens more. each one promises that if you use it, you'll be able to craft better stories. And because we want to write good books, the writers I know are constantly learning new frameworks and analyzing their stories through them. I use frameworks like these all the time in the editing process after the first draft is already written. But I've seen many writers use them earlier, even before they start writing. It's tempting thought, right? What if you could use these frameworks to solve your story problems and make writing your first draft so much easier? What if you could build a story from the ground up that already fulfills everything those frameworks require from the very first draft? Would that shortcut the creative process? Would it help you create a better story faster, or would it get in the way of your storytelling? Are there moments in the creative process when frameworks like these might just do more harm than good? I'm a big fan of storytelling frameworks, but today we're taking a hard look at them to see what they offer, what they can't do for us, And how to tap into your true authority as the writer of your own story. Welcome to your next draft. Today on the podcast I have with me Brandon Sra. Brandon is one of my editor besties. She's a book development partner for nonfiction non-writer That is experts who've lived a lot, know a lot, and have big ideas to share, but who are not writers by trade and need help getting those ideas onto the page and into book form. Brandon and I worked together super closely alongside Kim Kessler, whom you've also heard on your next draft. The three of us met through story grid editor certification. Brandon and I also worked through author Accelerator's book coaching course, me for fiction and her for nonfiction, although she chose not to certify. So as you'll hear in our conversation, we have a shared understanding of the specific story frameworks that we gravitate towards most. Which is great because we are here to talk about book writing frameworks when they're helpful and when they're not. And Brandon is the perfect person for this conversation because in the traditional publishing world, nonfiction books are sold on proposal. What that means is a writer has an idea for a book rather than writing the book and sending the manuscript to agents, which is what would happen in the fiction world. Instead, they put together a 10 to a hundred page book proposal that describes things like the purpose of the book, the audience for the book, and the topic of each chapter. The agent gives them feedback on the proposal, and then they go through a few rounds of revision. when they're ready, they submit the proposal to publishers who decide if they want to publish a book like that. The acquisitions editor gives them more feedback on the proposal. They go through a few more rounds of revisions and then the writer writes the book essentially in the nonfiction world, the question, can you use story frameworks to solve your story before you write? The manuscript is not a hypothetical, it's the way that nonfiction books are developed, sold, edited, and then written. So I brought Brandon on to find out does that work? Why do we try to put the framework before the draft and what happens when we do? She and I have explored these questions off mic a lot, and as you'll hear when we get to the interview, we dive right into the deep end. So I wanna prep you with a smidge of extra context before I share our conversation. There are a lot of story frameworks out there. In this conversation, I have three specific ones in mind. First, of course, the nonfiction book proposal, which isn't so much a story structure system as it is a business proposal that includes the content of a book. Second story, grid's 6 24, which is a map of the fundamental foundational aspects of a story structure. And third. Jenny Nash's blueprint for a book, and I think Jenny would very much want me to make the distinction here that the blueprint is not itself a story structure system like story grid or Hero's journey or Save the Cat, but a method of inquiry to understand what you're writing and why you're writing it. The reason I have these three in mind in particular is because they are all explicitly presented as tools to use before you begin writing. Even though I know that Sean Coy originally built his story grid system, and Jenny Nash originally designed the blueprint as a way to evaluate and edit a completed manuscript. These are both tools that began as editing tools and evolved into writing tools. But honestly, even though these are the tools that I have in mind in this conversation, you can sub in any story framework that you know and use. The specifics of the framework aren't the point. The specifics of the creative process and when and how we choose to use these frameworks are what's really important here. There's one more thing I want you to know about Brandon before we dive in. She's been in the nonfiction writing world for nearly two decades, and she has this almost magical ability to help people unearth the ideas they didn't know they had, and then wordsmith those ideas into absolutely brilliance sentences and paragraphs and books. In fact, you're benefiting from her skills even in listening to your next draft Because she's helped me figure out what I wanna say and how to say it in these episodes more times than I can count. Basically, Brandon is a magical book genius. It's a joy to work alongside her, and I'm really excited to share some of her brilliance with you here. So without further ado, let's dive in.

Alice 6:59

what I have seen that most of these fiction tools that I am familiar with, and I don't know the full histories of every one of them, and there are tons of tools out there that I'm not familiar with, but most of the fiction tools In this space that I'm familiar with initially designed as revision tools to kind of diagnose what's going on in a manuscript and figure out, okay, where are the gaps that aren't clear? Where are the things that The writer is kind of floating around, but we haven't actually articulated it and that that's where we're going to plant a flag like, where are we seeing structural pieces that are working? And what does that tell us about other structural pieces that aren't working? Like, that's where a lot of these tools were developed. And then, because It would be really nice to have that information as early as possible. A lot of them then shifted into being tools for initial development of the story. And I think that in some ways that mirrors the nonfiction book writing process for traditional publication at all, which is one of the big reasons I wanted to bring you on the podcast is because that is the way in which. Traditional publication expects nonfiction to be written and so like some of the question is like does that work for nonfiction and if so, when and why and does it work for fiction and if so, when and why and what are the constraints around when it doesn't work. So my hypothesis here is that, When you are first discovering your story, you can go into any of those tools, and you can write down everything you know, because you will know some things. You're not going to start from nothing, you will know some things. But, there are going to be a lot of things you don't know, and, You might be able to fill in some of the gaps right at the start and create some hypotheses to run with, but there will be things that you can't really figure out without writing. And so to some degree, you do have to go in with limited information and just try stuff and see what. So that's why I prefer to work with people after they've written at least a draft, because if you've got a draft down, 80, 000 words, you've discovered a lot more in those 80, 000 words than what you knew when you were just putting some hypotheses down on paper. Now we're talking about like the, balance of efficiency versus discovery and creative exploration.

Brannan 9:31

it's a good hypothesis and I think like, okay, so it's, I think we get muddied up when we're trying to be efficient and creative at the same time. and, and that you're exactly right that that is what is happening in the nonfiction space. I think there's more people aspiring to write the next great American novel than the next like great self help book. And, and I think that there's, And we see that the middle space is memoirs, right? Like if people who really want to go traditional most often are doing that with a memoir, which unfortunately is the thing that the non fiction industry does not want from non celebrities. They do not want it. If you have a memoir and you're committed to a memoir, you're much better off fictionalizing it and pitching it as a fiction. Or finding the lessons in it and pitching it as a self help than you are pitching it as a memoir, unless you just have a wild following and a wild story, both. so there's, you know, there's some overlap there where people are just flooding the market with memoir, as well as fiction and probably not so much self help, how to, big idea, that kind of thing. So there's this idea that you can maybe incentivize people to. to make sure it's the product that we actually want to sell and, and how much can we get ahead of that and, and shortcut the later stages of revision and, and changing something that someone might feel really attached to, especially because nonfiction is directly you, you can't hide behind. You know, Oh, it was this dream that I had once like you can in fiction, like it is directly you. So it can be a little more challenging to get people to adjust those things later on. and so I think the whole idea was to shortcut the process and make it more efficient. but I, I think that that's a little bit backwards. I think the of times that I, in both nonfiction and fiction, have talked to somebody and been like, What if we structured it this other way, or did this other thing? And they're like, Oh, that's how I had it first. And then someone else told me not to do that, so I changed it. And I'm like, Yeah, your instincts were good. You should have stayed there. our instincts are good. Our human instincts for storytelling are good. performative, efficiency, productivity. stuff that gets in the way and makes us start like, you know, move away from what is actually innate in us and start trying to be someone else and getting stilted and weird. And, that actually makes it so much more difficult than it is otherwise. And I will say that if you have a lot of skill in writing, this is why we see journalists. Write a lot. Gladwell was a journalist first and they will like test their stuff out in smaller audiences, see what hits, and then write it. And they have the skill to like, create really quick content, like a lot of content really fast in journalism. or if somebody has a lot of skill in, fiction writing and maybe has done research, they might go into historical narratives really easily and like a ton of skill in writing can cover a lot of sins in terms of creativity and like new ideas because it sounds nice. To be honest, this is why we're enamored with AI. when it comes up quickly and looks nice, there's a, a veneer to it that makes us go, Ooh, that was amazing. And that happens with a lot of writing. When there's a lot of skill, it can be like, Ooh, that was amazing. And then some expert reads it and they're like, this is not actually amazing. What are you talking about? So if you have a lot of writing skill, it can cover a lot of ground for you there. But if you are not a non writer or a new writer, and you are building those skills or partnering with a really collaborative editor in order to get the message out, even though you don't yet have those skills, you need your creativity and efficiency can kill creativity, like in a heartbeat. if you're not careful, so I like tools, I use tools. I have a tool that I rely on, that sounds like an efficiency tool. It's called the five minute outline. but it's very much not an efficiency tool. It's about clearing those blocks and almost getting into a meditative headspace. So that the thing that you're wanting to say can emerge and trying to turn that into an efficiency tool breaks it. And I think that's where I want everybody to be careful, fiction and non fiction alike. You need to be using your tools to give you access to the story that is bubbling up in you and the one that only you can tell. in a way that's not so painful, that's less sit at a typewriter and bleed and more like sit down in a creative headspace and explore. Use tools in that way. but if you find yourself using them to try and like grind content out of you in an efficient manner, that's when we can start to get in tricky territory.

Alice 15:07

Yeah, when I first certified in StoryGrid, StoryGrid has tons of structural tools for what makes stories work. And I love them. A lot of them are here on the podcast. I use them with my clients. They're, they've like shaped the way in which I engage with and analyze stories. But when I first stepped out of the story grid training and went back to working with, with clients, The language was fresh in my mind, and I didn't yet have a facility for kind of through the language, shifting terms, translating things from the like, like stoic analysis into the vibrant creative language of tapping into someone's creativity. And so I was directly asking people very much like, okay, like let us together work through what is the inciting incident? What are the progressive complications? What's the turning point, crisis, climax, resolution, all of that stuff is here on the podcast. And I absolutely edit with it, but I find myself now a lot more in conversations with clients telling them, have all of these tools in the back of my mind. I am not going to tell you what I have marked within your story in my mind, to this framework, because I don't want to pull you out of the space where you're just like creatively attached to the story and into that analytical space where you're trying to fill in a blank, figuring out what comes next. And I got some of that from you, honestly, pushing me to kind of figure out how to do that. and I have. I have seen how writers have gotten stopped up when I have slipped into the other direction and given them too many tools. I am like, oh no, now you are in analytical overwhelm, and this isn't working anymore. And when you're in that analytical overwhelm space, There's no space for creative discovery, like, there's only, I feel like writer, the energy that the writer brings into it is more like what is the right answer according to another authority as opposed to what is the story that I am trying to tell and how do I get closer to

Brannan 17:18

And you can't, if you are not the authority, you're not the author. Like their, their words are connected for a reason. You have to be the authority on your story or you're, you're not writing your story. You're letting someone else write it. You're kind of. letting yourself be that AI machine that gets prompted and spits out answers that like, let me know if this works or I'll try it again. You know, that's not you writing your story. That's not the audacity that an author has to have. There, there comes a point where you have to, Let it emerge as it is and, and kind of advocate for it and stand behind it and be like, this is the story, like, uh, help me make it better. But this is the story that I'm trying to tell. And, and it doesn't, I almost let people, when like beta readers are responding or when I'm editing and, and they're getting, you know, some like pushback on, on some of their content. I'm like, fight with us, man, fight with us on the page. Like, if you don't agree with what that comment is, I want you to stand behind that and then make that argument for that point clearer on the page so that it gets ahead of some of those objectives, or objections. But I don't, don't just, Pull back because someone disagreed with you. Like it is your story and you have to be the one to tell it. I want to go back to, um, the tools because I put my authors janky tools in the early stages of like, specifically when story grid did some translation over to nonfiction. And I like. I was just mind blown at the underpinnings of really good nonfiction that it was taught to us was very, there were like four different frameworks. I wrote a whole article that like layered all of these frameworks on top of each other I felt like the conspiracy theory, like, Pins and strings type, all connected, man. I swear. Like I felt so crazy while I was writing it helped some people. And I think that made me go, okay, cool. This is helpful. we teach from the tools and we coach from the tools. And so you got to learn the tools and use the tools. And I had people doing spreadsheets and quadrants And and spirals and all kinds of like really story walk terms that did not serve them. And I had to, over time, like, let that just live in the recesses of my own mind and inform how I coach them, but use the language overtly with them that connected with them and helped them bring their creativity forward. And as you were talking about that, it made me think that, like, it might not be just efficiency that we're going for, but it might be this commitment to the idea of Writing in isolation and emerging with a really good book that you did all by your onesies. Like, that is a really weird, idealized thing in this space that is not real, for one. authority and, you know, skill because it's asking you to spread yourself too thin. And it's masking as agency and authority, because it's telling you, you're going to do it by yourself, but it actually is pulling that away from you because it's spreading you out too thin to be all of these things that you were never supposed to be. You were just supposed to be the deliverer of this one message. And then it strips the agency authority and expertise of the editors and book coaches and collaborators that you could be working with, or even just working partners. I feel like in and we have this like working space where we can be on zoom all of the time and bounce ideas off of each other is so empowering. And you can create that with fellow writers if you need to. but it It, if you don't, if you are trying to like hold all of that on your own and just use tools to emerge victorious with the finished, complete, wonderful, perfect, unchangeable book, then you have all of these wonderful creators and editors and partners out here who have skill to make that so much easier for you and. They need work and you need help and everybody's miserable because of this weird thing hanging over all of us that says You have all of the tools at your disposal. You should be able to create a perfect book. Why haven't you done it yet? You know

Alice 21:54

Yeah, absolutely. I think that even as you were describing all of the tools, In that you're getting from story grid, layering together, sharing with writers, and then learning to keep in the back of your mind and not speak them all out loud. I was thinking the only way that that's possible for a writer to benefit from that is then if the writing is a collaborative process. And we basically like separate the two roles of the creation and the analysis. is not to say that writers aren't able to analyze and evaluate their own work, I think that that's something that the more time that I spend in Jenny Nash's space of Author Accelerator, the more I see how that's an emphasis that she really values, like, the the, uh, The coach, the book coach, is there to support the writer in their own evaluation and engagement with their ideas. the editor is there to, uh, to take those ideas and bring their own analysis and help create the suggestions and solutions. And the coach does some of that, but the coach is also just there to help facilitate the writer's own access to their creativity. Like, those are two different kinds of approaches. And think that The, the value of that book coaching side, the value of that ethos that the writer has the capacity to do it is that it is really empowering to the writer to, yes, you have the ability to engage with and evaluate and analyze your own text and your own ideas and you can spot the gaps and when writers come to me and I ask them in the first call where I'm meeting a writer for the first time and seeing, you know, what are they working on and can I support them? I ask people every time what is, you know, What are the challenges in your story? What's not working? And they have a whole list. Like, they can tell me what's not working. Writers know. You know where the gaps are. But I think that And, of course, every writer has the capacity, just as much as they have the capacity to learn the skills of writing, they have the capacity to go learn these tools of editing. They're not secrets, they're very available, uh, you don't even have to pay for a course a lot of times to go learn these tools, they're out there. But it is such a burden to place on the writer to say you both need to master the writing part, and you need to master the level of analysis and editing to be able to edit your own writing. I think that there's kinds of two factors here that go into that. One is what you're saying, this idealized ethos that we have of the individual writer who does the writing. Everything themselves who walks out of the cabin in the woods with a completed novel and then we hail them as the next great American author and who to touch this manuscript that it is perfect in its current form like who would have that audacity if you are not Max Perkins yourself, how dare you change a word like it. It would be like that's our idealized ethos of what a writer ought to be, we have that, that vision and then the other piece is, um, I was being so funny with that. I forgot what the other piece is. the other piece is the, idealized vision of the support that If we walk into the industry, we assume the industry will provide the support to polish and maximize this book. And the reality is that the industry has not really been offering that kind of support for a long time. When you do get that support, it is an outlier and not the rule. It's because really generous book people are Taking jobs in an industry that does not facilitate them giving you that kind of support, but they are so passionate about it that they do it. Anyway, it is not guaranteed and Is not incentivized by the industry because the industry is looking for a product that sells really quickly and really quickly. It's going to take two years to publication, but the industry is looking for a product that's ready to sell, and you don't make that happen faster by first needing to coach your writer through a year of book development before you get The sellable product, again, that's back to that efficiency and back to that. Well, let's just have them write the book plan right up front, right? The proposal right up front. And we can have, we can make sure that like the pieces are already in place before the manuscript is ever written. The, the industry itself is not incentivized to provide the kind of support that writers imagine they will get from the industry. So there's this tandem of. isolated creating and the assumption that the industry will do the rest of the work. And that means that we forget that there is a whole world of book support out here where our role is to hold all of that analysis in our heads and bring that to the table when it is useful and hold it back when it's not useful and just filter for exactly what the

Brannan 26:51

I think that's something that you and I have in common being able to like both coach and edit, which sometimes those roles are separate. A lot of times those roles are separate. You're a coach or you're an editor and being able to do both. I think the coach. helps the writer see when and how they can toggle back and forth between that writing and analysis space so that they can keep moving. I just talked to somebody about this the other day. I find it comes up a whole lot where I'm like, here's what, here's what you're doing that is creative brain. And here's what you're doing that is analysis brain. And you're trying to do both of those at the same time is brilliant. blocking you up. So here's how you can toggle back and forth between them and when in order to keep moving. And that's really in that vein of coaching. How do we keep you moving through that process towards something that is going to be good for your readers and good for your objectives. And then editing, editing brings to the table solutions that betas can't bring. tools can't bring like no, you know, printable tool out there can help you find a specific solution for your book in the context of your book. they can raise the question and they can show you where things are off, but they can't give you a solution. And sometimes coaches can't do that. Beta readers can't do that. And then I find that, writers who are really good at the analysis part, they often can't find the solutions either on their own, because there are lots of potential ways to do it. and sometimes the thing that we think is a solution is much bigger than what the actual solution is. We can do something that's smaller, like, and create a really big impact. And that's editor, like actual trained editor skill, not just. you know, the practice of editing or revising your own novel. and being able to do both allows us to have these really rich interactions with our clients and stick with them for so long and work through really sticky content and come out with something that's gorgeous because we're able to both empower the author To move in and out of creativity and analytics and also provide solutions and make sure those solutions happen, which is a ton of fun. It's my favorite thing in the world.

Alice 29:15

Yeah, yeah, like that's the thing. It's so fun. I think that when we idealize the individual writer working alone, to me, that's Beyond all of the practical things that are really, really helpful about bringing in a coach slash editor into this process, the other piece is just that it's so darn fun. Why would you want to go hide in a cabin alone when you can have a party with friends who are all engaged in the same The same process of creation.

Brannan 29:46

And our clients are having fun. It takes the pain, so much of the pain out of creating. and I think that's the only thing that would make someone on the, you know, past the Proverbial paywall of the industry, support you in that really intense way is because it's fun. It's not because they're getting paid to, it's not because their job allows room for them to, it's because they do have that passion for it. And if you're lucky enough to catch someone before they burn out, you might possibly get that on that side of the industry, but it, their jobs are not facilitating it. And I think you and I both have had dreams. In various stages of our career of being on that side of things, and, I'm really glad that we're not because there's just so much risk to the editors who are working in that space, and reading. We both read developmental editing the book. I can't remember who the author is this year.

Alice 30:43

It

Brannan 30:43

you've got It

Alice 30:45

And I love that you said we both read it because you read it and I read the

Brannan 30:51

That is reading it. You did read it. I didn't say you read it to completion. We both did read it. We had the shared experience of reading some of that content. So we both read that book this year and I think the most disheartening part about it was that it was trying to surface the process of developmental editing so that authors could do it themselves in the event that their publisher didn't provide it for them because it's it's. being provided less and less and less. And is why nonfiction books are vetted at the outline level rather than you going into writing them because they want to know it's already developed. They want to know that they're not going to have to bring someone in who has to help you structurally reorganize it because they don't want to invest in that, which Sucks for authors because that means they don't want to invest in you. And then it's bad for editors because that means they don't want to invest in us. So doing the weird thing of creating a business and working outside of the confines of the industry, is hard. Uh, but it's really beautiful because we get to create those spaces for ourselves and for our authors and know that they're getting the support that they need rather than just like, you know, polishing them up, As much as we can and like patting them on the head and sending them off into an industry that may or may not care for them.

Alice 32:12

Right. And The Artful Edit by Susan Bell is to the same purpose of, of clarifying that process of editing your, so that you can do it yourself. because there isn't a guarantee that you'll get it from the industry. In fact, it is less likely that you'll get it from the industry than that you will

Brannan 32:38

Silence. Silence.

Alice 32:56

to do before you know what the book is. You can't edit the blank page. You can't edit something until you have something to edit. So, in all of this kind of space. One thing that I've been thinking about is, I get a lot of questions from people who listen to this podcast where I share all of my editing strategies, many of which come straight from StoryGrid, they're all things that I'm using with my writers in our sessions. get a lot of questions of, that are basically the same question, can I use this editing tool in the writing process? Like when I'm writing my first draft, can I use this in my first draft? And, I understand why people are asking that, because, like, again, wise, if we could just, like, solve the structural questions that we're answering in the editing process in the first draft, then the first draft would be great, right? So, what is your response to questions like that? I guess, I guess, do you ever hear that from your non fiction people, or is your non fiction space, like, outside of a space where that's

Brannan 33:57

Well, they don't often know as many tools as fiction writers tend to. I think especially if a fiction writer has been stuck, they're going to go gobble up Every possible resource out there. And like, maybe it's going to be save the cat that fixes me. Maybe it's going to be story good that fixes me. And they're just going to go like spin out through all of those things. So they know all of the resources out there. I have had a few people, but it hasn't happened. Since I stopped using all of the the spreadsheets and the quadrants and all of that back when I had the complicated editing tools I had people asking for do you have is there a save a cat for fiction for nonfiction? Is there is there some kind of thing that I can use and every now and then I will still get Is there a template that I can follow? can I put this into chat GPT and just make it work for me? You know, I'll get that kind of thing where they do want a shortcut. They don't often know a specific shortcut for editing and then want to know if they can use it in writing, but they, it's natural to want a tool to make things easier. I point them to, and it's not even. It's not even like self serving. I have my recordings up for the five minute outline up free on my website. I just did an episode on Substack that's free. That is just the record, the guided recording to move through a five minute outline. and I find that that is the most effective way to get somebody to map enough that they can write. And. While I think we want templates so that we know we have a guaranteed good outcome that is like, you know, ready to go and we won't have to spend a lot of time revising it, it, that's just not real. on one hand and on the other hand, I think we're more likely to get that if we're If we're the tool that we're using is tapping us into the story. We really want to tell rather than conforming a story. We want to tell into some other shape. So I give everybody who wants that kind of tool. I point them to the toward the five minute outline, which is translated from the five commandments, which is story good tool. You've taught it here. You have six steps, I think.

Alice 36:15

Yeah, I call it the six elements of story, and the reason is just because story grid stopped, like, emphasizing progressive complications as a separate piece, and I still think that there's a very, the progressive complications are like of the story, so there's gotta be something that they are doing that is different from the inciting incident and different from the turning point, so I call them six, I call out six of them, but,

Brannan 36:40

Yeah. So it's that framework. And then I've just converted it to be questions that you answer, that when you answer those questions in a way that feels like you having a conversation, or, you know, doing a journaling exercise, it's going to put content down in the order of the five commandments, or it really would account for the six elements. because. If we're trying to create an inciting incident, or we're trying to create a hook, we can come up with all kinds of things that we think might work because we're trying to be catchy, or we're trying to be dramatic, or we're trying to be all of these things that we think is supposed to happen in that beginning space, rather than if we're answering the question, why does this content really matter? Or in fiction, the question might be, What is the, what is the character doing right now? Like full stop at the beginning of a scene, what is the character doing right now? We'll get you a better start than what is the inciting incident and how can I write to it? yeah absolutely So that's what that tool is. And that's the only place that I will send people because a template, you know, some other book, whatever, if you find one that works for you, great, but I'm not going to go send you off in the direction of something that might tip you into performative space rather than Opening up this, like, passion space of what you actually want to say.

Alice 38:13

You know, I love that you framed it like that because there's something, there's a question that I've been asking. Often, when I am working with a writer, and we're like ideating new material, especially, this is when we have kind of figured out, okay, this is the gap that we need to fill, so let's figure out how to fill it. a lot of times, we figured out that gap by using analysis, by using the six elements to say, oh, Look at that. We're missing a climax. The thing that we thought was the climax is actually the turning point, and now we need to put a climax in this story. now we have a wide open arena with no material. What happens next? Like, what, what will that climax be? And the writer, because, I've walked the writer through that thought process. It's right there with me going, okay, what are great climaxes for this kind of a story? What kind of elements need to be in this climax? And I have been, you're clarifying for me why I've been doing this and why I want to make this a podcast episode two about the using this question as an editing tool. The question is just, What happens next? What will your character do next? We don't know what the climax is going to be. Let's go back to what we do know. We do know that that turning point is there. It's already in the story. If we just walk it out from there, What will your character This is the situation they're in. What's the next thing they're going to do? And it's like, it's so simple, but what it is, is reconnecting the writer with the, just the creative ideation, discovery, following the character through a story. And we We can easily forget that when we're in space.

Brannan 39:48

Yep. knowing the character matters for that too, which in my case, for nonfiction, usually the character is, is comparable to the reader. Like the reader is the hero going on the journey. And you're more like the mentor or the threshold guardian as the author. but knowing who your character is. is the only reason that you can answer, what will they do next? Because you can draw on, well, how far have they come to this point? What have they, what have we challenged them on? Like, what is their ultimate objective? Like, you can go into all of that to be able to know where they're going next. It's not some, Esoteric, my character told me what comes next, nonsense that fiction authors always want to share. That's not actually how they're writing. What's true is that they know the character and the story they want to tell about that character, and they know humanity enough. To be able to go, this is what a person would reasonably do in this situation. And here's how I'm going to challenge that as the author. You have to know all of that to be able to make those decisions. They don't actually like animate on the page and start talking to you. fortunately for nonfiction, When your character, your main character is a reader, they can animate, like you can go talk to someone and go, I'm writing about this thing. Like, what do you think? And when they object, that is not them rejecting you. That is them telling you how a, how a character, your character, your reader behaves and how they're thinking and what their, where their attention is going next. And you can respond to that and go, okay, I see those objections. Here's what needs to happen and address them on the page rather than going, they didn't love it at first sight and now it's terrible and I should never write anything ever again. so you have to know your character in fiction. You have to know your reader in nonfiction and how you would interact with them in order to be able to keep moving forward. And that's where those solutions are found and why it's so powerful to be working with someone who has an outside perspective and story skill, who can know what questions to ask you and know how to like help you guide that character through, rather than just going, I don't know, what would they do next? Or like waiting for them to talk to you.

Alice 42:07

And I think the going back to the idea of where do you use the blueprint or the 624 or a book proposal? Like, where do you use those tools? The challenge Of using them right up front for a fiction writer is that you don't know the character yet. Like you don't have enough time spent with the character. You haven't put them through enough simulations to find out how they respond to them. You have a hypothesis. You have an idea up front, but you Don't yet have the experiential time spent with the character to connect really deeply with them. And so, it's all hypothetical. And it's, you can, you can run a simulation, you can, you can create a scenario and a hypothesis of what's going to happen. And that might, Be what happens on the page or a lot of things might change in between that initial plan and the actual draft because you'll just learn so much more about the character. And then when I come in and draft two, I'm like, great, you know, your character now, now, you know, the character, now we can talk. Now we've got something to work with. Now we have constraints like they're not going to make any of 2000 possible They're going to make any of three choices because to them, the other 1, 997 options to

Brannan 43:24

Right, they would never,

Alice 43:27

They don't see them. They don't care. They don't have access to them. They're not

Brannan 43:31

which is another that I think that points to another thing. It's like knowing the character and then knowing the story that you're trying to tell, like, at first, it'll be rough, right? Like, I want to tell a love story. I want to tell a maturation story, like a coming of age, like you'll have this general block of, you know, I want to tell this kind of story. And, and as you get to know your character, and I think to some degree, like yourself as a writer, that will keep honing down and honing down and become that constraint that you need. And that is. Those are the three pieces that I anchor people in. If I'm doing a proposal with them, you have to know who your reader is. You have to know who you are and you have to know what you're, what kind of experience you're creating for the two of you. And that is what kind of story you're telling. And when you have all of those, then you have a much narrower field of questions to answer. I think I've been trying to think, I think it was in wired for story, which, I got also because of the Author Accelerator, program. And I'm pretty sure that that is where Lisa Krohn, talks about coaching Jenny Nash through a book development idea. And, it is really good at demonstrating how, first of all, an editor or a coach will work with. a writer and, and how you keep going, I don't think you're there yet. Try this other thing. And like really helping them hone down into it. But also it's good for showing the author's experience of, of, answering those questions through the lens of what kind of story am I trying to tell? So it wasn't just, What, What, could the person do next? And it's like, well, they'll go get the mail and then they'll go get groceries. It's not like that kind of thing. It's like, because this is the story I'm trying to tell about this character, they would go do this thing next. And then I'm going to bring this challenge up against them. To completely foil it and continue to like push them into their space. And, and that book is really good at Jenny walks through like, well, but this is the book that I'm writing. This is a story I'm trying to tell. So in light of that. What would the character do next? What would they run into? What's the best way that I can create this environment that emphasizes the story I want to tell rather than just letting life happen on the page? and those, those dynamics, I think, if you know who you are, as an author and how you want to write, if you know who your reader is, And, how they want to read and then in this case, if you know who the character is and how they want to, you know, what they want out of their world, and then if you know what story you're trying to tell, you can solve for so many different things and then probably use any tool in there, which I think that we think when there's a tool that is printable like that, that'll fit on a one page that we're supposed to sit down and fill it out before like the class bell rings. Thanks. Can I be the first person to turn in my worksheet? Rather than going, oh I don't actually know who the character is, let me sit with that for a while. And like giving it time to breathe, that can, that can turn a tool from something that is dangerous to your creative process to something that facilitates it, if you allow it to also take time and space and maybe I need to go write a little bit and practice it and see if that feels right or talk to somebody or watch some movies that are similar and see if that is what I want to do or read some comps or whatever you need to do to like, Feel into your answers and make sure they are what you want to say and then go create rather than just how quickly can I fill this out? And if I can't fill it out quickly, does that mean I don't have a book? Like, that's what will make those tools dangerous.

Alice 47:36

Yeah, absolutely. I have seen so much of that energy too from clients where it's like, all right, I have been given my homework assignments and I shall complete it quickly to the best of my ability. And I'm constantly inviting writers into a slower process of allowing more ideas to rise to the surface. Like, what we, what we don't need is to quickly fill out a form. What we do need is to find the right questions to allow deep thoughts to emerge. And sometimes, those, the way to unearth the deep thoughts is through questions. Through finding the right targeted questions from something like a book plan, like, or the five minute outline, or sometimes the way to unearth the ideas is to simply go right and see what comes up on the page. And that's where you get back to your instincts where you're like, well, we, what if we did it this way? Oh, I did that, that, that way. The first time your instincts were

Brannan 48:44

Mm hmm.

Alice 48:47

and your instincts are going to start directing what happens. sometimes like unearthing those ideas. say that unearthing those ideas happens through the application of editing tools. I would say the application of editing tools is to help us figure out what to do with and to sift through to go which ones are the most important and what

Brannan 49:07

Yeah, I think they're narrowing tools. They help you when too much bubbles up and you have six different inciting incidents that never actually turn into a climax. Your editing tools will help you figure that out and you can narrow it down and figure out that this is not actually part of this book. That is part of the next book or that is a different genre entirely. Let's not tell that here. You know, your editing tools can help you. create those enabling constraints that allow you to keep being creative if you use them in that direction. but if you try and make them generative, again, much like AI, if you're trying to make it generative, you're probably going to get something that's a little bit stilted and not actually as, As powerful as the thing that you would have told on your own. If you, if you were the generator,

Alice 50:00

Yeah, I love that, and I think that that's a great place to wrap up. but before we wrap up, a couple last questions for you. What do you love most about editing?

Brannan 50:13

I think in my case, I really love seeing the author emerge. I think that's my favorite. I really love watching the author emerge. I like when they, when they start off a little bit like timid and like, I kind of have a thing, is it okay if I show you? And they end in this space of, can we be done now because I have to share this with people? or sharing it before it's published, like watching them really step into that authority that they've always had in them, but maybe haven't been able to articulate or see in themselves is really beautiful. And, and I think I've seen that in fiction authors. I haven't hung out with them as long. I've seen it in your people moving from. I don't know to like, Oh, this is good. And that you can almost see it happen in a call, even when they're like their posture moves forward and their eyes light up and they're like, yeah, that's the thing. And then when that holds and they're in that space on the next call and the next call, and then you see them sharing it out in the wild. And that is just, Absolutely gorgeous. I think it's a, there's a, a human development kind of thing happening there more than just book development. And I could do that forever.

Alice 51:32

love that so much. That's like. One of the great gifts of not being in the traditional space is that we're in the space where that is the outcome that we get to see. I love that. okay, last question is Where can people find you? Where would you like to point anyone to? Writers of all stripes, but especially those nonfiction non writers into your

Brannan 51:59

I think both of them, writers of all stripes and the nonfiction non writers could go to Substack. I'm, B is for book coach over there. And I do, Every week, when it is sustainable and a healthy practice for us, every week I release a really short episode that, encourages the creative process that is geared toward non fiction non writers, but I think everybody could probably benefit from a little bit of that re energizing, um, It's okay for this to be messy kind of encouragement. And then there's more, access to coaching and direct access to me linked through there. So if you go in through BS for book coach on Substack, then you should be able to get everything you need.

Alice 52:44

Perfect. I love that. And your podcast is just so lovely and peaceful and encouraging and, like, welcoming to all of the ups and downs and bumps in the writing process. Just as completely normal, and we're just gonna be at peace. I love it. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Brandon. It has been so delightful to have you here, and I'm sure that at some point in the future, we'll bring you back on for more great

Brannan 53:13

Looking forward to it. Thank you so much.

53:17

And there you have it. That's our take on the tools, the process, and especially your own creative authority. There are so many things that I could highlight from this conversation. For one, I loved that distinction between editing and book coaching. That coaching is about facilitating the writer's creative process, and editing is about finding strategic solutions to story problems. These are two separate skill sets, but Brandon and I have found they are most powerful in tandem. But here's my biggest takeaway. The one thing I don't want you to miss. Brandon and I are so pro tool. We love and use so many tools, but we have both found that tools cause writers problems when they start from tools and try to build their story from the tools. writers do this, what they're really doing is seeding their authority over their own story. It shifts them away from exploring what story they truly want to tell and into trying to generate content for another authority to approve of. And when you've seeded your authority over your story, you cease to be the author, as Brandon said, when writers feel pressured to write alone, that strips everyone of their authority, the writers from having authority over their story, and the editors and coaches who could support them from having authority over their areas of genius. The opposite of tools is intuition. Your own intuitive, instinctual understanding of story. Brandon and I are pro tool and we're pro intuition. This is both and not either or. You need your intuition, your connection with yourself and your story and your characters in order to create. That's the source where it's all coming from. The tools will help you shape your ideas into stronger stories. That's not a lie. They do help. The key is that you must own your own authority over your story and over the tools. That's easier to do when you spend extensive time with your story before putting it through a tool. It's also easier to do when you have an editor and coach to support you in using the tools in a way that facilitates your creative process rather than blocking it up. If you do want to use a tool at the very beginning of story development, before you have a draft to edit, I recommend Jenny Nash's blueprint for a book. As she says, it's a process of inquiry, not a story structure system, and that's a crucial distinction here. The blueprint will not detach you from your own intuition and dictate the shape of your story before you understand what your story is. Rather, it will help you articulate what you know about your story and reflect on why your story matters to you. just know that if you haven't yet connected deeply with your story, you may still find the questions in the blueprint difficult to answer, and that's okay. Ultimately the invitation in every tool at every stage in the writing and editing process is to observe which questions are difficult to answer, and then dig deep into your connection to your story to discover where those questions lead you. Speaking of good questions, I have another episode of your next draft to recommend to you. If you heard Brandon mention her five minute outline for nonfiction and wish you could get that kind of clarity where you are stuck in your novel, I recommend checking out episode 79 of your next draft. Ask this question when you're overwhelmed by your story. The question I share there is designed to pull you out of all the tools and story frameworks and reconnect you to your characters and your intuitive sense of your story. It's the episode I mentioned earlier on in this conversation that I wanted to write. I've gone ahead and created it and it's live now. I also encourage you to check out Brandon's podcast be is for book coach. I love her latest episode, how to Take the Drama out of Cutting and Rewriting content, and I think you'll enjoy it too. In It she compares killing your darlings to frogging. That is ripping out your knitting. As a knitter who recently frogged half a sweater, I felt every word of this episode on a deeply personal level. Brandon also writes and speaks a lot about your authority as the author of your book, so if you'd like more encouragement to own your authority, start with the episode. Comparison Isn't a thief, and then keep scrolling through her podcast for more. You can find B is for book coach on Substack or in your favorite podcast player. And of course, links to all of this are in the show notes. And that's everything. Thanks for joining Brandon and me as we did one of our favorite things, which is nerd out about story and editing processes. Above all, I hope you take this as abundant permission to trust yourself and own your authority as the author of your story. Happy editing.