The Conversation with Nadine Matheson
Welcome to The Conversation with Nadine Matheson, where best-selling author of the 'Detective Inspector Anjelica Henley' series Nadine Matheson sits down with fellow authors for insightful, honest, and entertaining conversations. Each episode dives deep into the world of writing, from the publishing journey to overcoming challenges, the experiences that shape their work, and anything else that comes up when great minds come together. Whether you're a fan of gripping stories or curious about the life behind the books, 'The Conversation' promises thought-provoking chats and moments of inspiration.
If you'd like to be a guest or have a message or question, reach out to us at theconversation@nadinematheson.com.
Finalist -Independent Podcast Awards 2024
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The Conversation with Nadine Matheson
Roxie Key: Creating A Spark
We're joined by debut author Roxie Key, who opens up about the emotional rollercoaster of releasing her first book, "The Deadly Spark." From wrestling with imposter syndrome to navigating life-changing events like pregnancy, Roxie's candid reflections offer a deeply personal look at the fears and triumphs of a first-time author.
We talk about the realities of publishing, the unexpected challenges of self-promotion and public speaking, and the vital importance of understanding that not everyone will love every book.
Whether you’re an aspiring writer or a seasoned author, this episode promises to equip you with insights into the multifaceted world of writing and publishing.
The Deadly Spark
Once secrets catch, they spread.
Deadly fires are lighting up Brighton, and the latest case is alarmingly close to home for DC Eve Starling. The blaze was deliberately set, and a mother and daughter didn’t make it out of the smoke.
Eve’s investigation takes her deep into her own uncomfortable past. When her key witness disappears, and with the killer always one step ahead, Eve is desperate to solve the case – whatever the cost.
But Eve has no idea how close she is to the flames, and playing with fire can get you burned…
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I think when it's something you've been dreaming about, you're just a little bit more resilient, right? So it's something I've wanted to do for a very long time. I didn't want to let something like that get in the way Although. I had got to the point where I was like, maybe this book isn't going to be my debut, so I actually stopped writing. I stopped working on that. One Started working on a sequel Well, a sequel.
Speaker 2:Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the conversation with Nadine Matheson. As always, I hope that you're well and I hope that you had a good week. Last week was particularly interesting because the end of no, actually not the end of last week. In the middle of last week, I woke up to a large influx of followers on my Blue Sky account. Now, I've been on Blue Sky since last year I think February 2023. I was one of the lucky few. I say lucky, but someone gave me an invitation code and I signed up to Blue Sky, and Blue Sky was a bit it was like you're there in a party in a really big room, but there's only a few people wandering about and occasionally you'd go and talk to them, but you'd go back to your corner. That's what blue sky was like for the last 18 months. And then last week, you saw this great influx of people who'd basically escaped from x, formerly known Twitter, and were looking for a new home for various reasons. There are many reasons which I actually speak about in my Substack newsletter and if you want to read it, all you need to do is go to nadinemaffisontalkssubstackcom and you can sign up to my newsletter called the Pivot with Nadine Maffison up to my newsletter called the Pivot with Nadine Matheson, and I talk about that in this week's newsletter. But you just saw this great influx of people from Twitter to Blue Sky and also to Fred's. So I woke up and every day I've just kept seeing the number of my followers increase and increase and increase, which is good, and if you want to follow me on Blue Sky, the links are in the show notes. But the point is I wanted to say is that in the early days of Twitter, one of the best things about it was that you were able to basically find your tribe and if you're someone who's starting out in something new, whether you're a creative person so you're a writer, you're a musician, whether you're a mechanic, whether you set up a food truck you are able to find your tribe really early on, get good advice, create communities and, especially if you're a writer, you know a lot of this job.
Speaker 2:It's very isolating. It's you sitting in front of your computer or your laptop minimum of eight hours a day. If you have the luxury of being able to work full-time, um, but you know, it's just you in front of your computer writing, and you don't see people unless you've got family living with you, you don't really see anyone. It's just you and your mind and your words. And the only time you see people is if you go to festivals or you go to events like book launches. But you know, not everyone can go to a festival because, depending on where they are, they can be expensive to get to, and then not just traveling there, buying tickets, and if you, if it's a weekend festival, then paying for hotels. It all adds up and not everyone has the means to be able to do that.
Speaker 2:And Twitter was a really good way of meeting new people and, as I said, creating your little tribes, and then, when you did venture out into the world, you were able to meet them. So it's quite sad that Twitter has descended into what I call it is a hellscape. X is a hellscape, and I just advise everyone to get out. Anyway, a quick reminder Thank you to everyone who's supporting the show by buying me a cup of coffee on Ko-fi. It's really cool to see a notification pop up in my inbox that someone has very kindly bought me a cup of coffee, so that is always nice, nice to see. So if you'd like to buy me a cup of coffee once again. The details are in the show notes and when you go to my ko-fi page, which is on ko-fi, ko-ficom, backslash Nadine Matheson, when you go there, not only can you buy me a cup of coffee, you can also visit my shop, where there is the conversation merchandise, there are signed copies of my books and also a daily digital planner for writers. So thank you once again. Now let's get on with the show.
Speaker 2:This week I'm in conversation with debut author Roxy Key, whose new book is called A Deadly Spark, and in our conversation we talk about the concerns, challenges and unexpected surprises of being a debut writer, confronting your fears in the stories you write and how to manage those moments when it's just you in front of the screen and you can't make it work. Now, as always, sit back. We'll go for a walk and enjoy the conversation. Now, as always, sit back. We'll go for a walk and enjoy the conversation. Roxy Key, welcome to the conversation.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for having me. You are very, very welcome. Right, my very first question for you is what were you most worried about? Actually, I feel like this is a really mean question, but it doesn't mean mean, it's not meant to be.
Speaker 1:But if you offer, what was you most worried about before the book came out? Uh, so that everyone would hate it? Like it's just that imposter syndrome, right that, like everyone would review it and say it was awful and you know she's not a good writer just, really, just a fear of rejection yeah how did you get through that?
Speaker 2:because it's such a long time between getting the right in the book bit, which we'll talk about, but it's such a long period of time between signing with your publisher and then them announcing the book deal and then your book finally being published.
Speaker 1:So you tell yourself whatever stories you tell yourself. Yeah, yeah, it was quite a long time as well for me, so it sort of felt like forever. I think I signed a contract in 2021 and they didn't announce till late 2023, so I was sitting on that for a long time and then, yeah, during that time, I just had so many thoughts like what if it never? I don't know what if they just don't end up publishing it, or what if it doesn't end up in the shops or people read?
Speaker 1:it and then they don't like it, and but then to get over that, I think I kind of just have to grin and bear it, because you can't really do anything about those things, can you like? I mean, I one thing that I do whenever I finish a book I really like is I look at reviews, um, and then I get really annoyed about the one star, two star reviews and then I think, well, if you know how could you think that about this amazing book, um? So then I find that's quite helpful, because I think if people don't like that book that I think is amazing, then they're probably going to be people that don't like mine, and that's fine.
Speaker 2:Did you say you signed um in 2021? Yeah, and your book didn't come out until. I've only paused because I'm looking at the cover and I'm like you didn't come out until May.
Speaker 1:The deadly spark of this year that's such a long leading time yeah, so it was partially my fault because I got pregnant, um had a baby and delayed my manuscript delivery by two months and it had a knock-on effect of a year to the schedule. But before that it was originally. I think it got a pushback once by the publisher, which is fine, anything can happen. So the original date was April 23,. So it was going to be about two years from signing the contract to publishing, but it ended up being three it's really, um, I know three such I and the only reason why I'm like I can't believe it's three years.
Speaker 2:Because I remember when well, no, when I signed, I hadn't even finished the book yet and we and I'd had, I'd gone, I had an author talk and when I was doing my um, my master's and the author said, yeah, it can take two years between you signing your deal and your book being published. And all of us in that group were like, what do you mean? Two years? That's so long. Like why is it taking two years? And then, yeah, you feel devastated. And then, when it happened to me, when I signed, and I and I signed in 2019, march 2019 I signed and, um, I said, yeah, we'll publish in 20, oh, I can't even count 2021. I was like what, that's so far ahead two years from now. And then when you say, then you can't really when you're in it, you kind of you kind of accept that's the norm as a debut, but to be two years. But when you hear three, you're like, oh my god. But you explain yeah, I mean.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean that's right, I did try to hit the deadline, but it was hard. Yeah, it's like you know what. I think in the end, we needed the extra time.
Speaker 2:Anyway, I think it came out at the right time.
Speaker 1:I'm happy how long had you wanted it to be a writer? I wrote stories when I was really young, just like silly little stories in notebooks, with stories about animals and things. And it wasn't until I think it was year 10 when I wrote a GCSE story a crime story actually, um and my English teacher said, oh, you should think about being a writer. And I was like, hold on, you can do that as a job. I don't know where I thought the books were coming from, and but yeah I. So I thought, oh, okay, that that's a good idea. And then, obviously, as I got where I thought the books were coming from, and but yeah, I.
Speaker 1:So I thought, oh, okay, that's a good idea and then as I got older, I thought I can't just graduate and just become a writer, and I need to do something else. And so, yeah, I studied English and creative writing and stuff and then just went into marketing and the whole time since then just knowing that I wanted to publish something. But I just spent a long time not, not knowing what I wanted to publish, what I wanted to write.
Speaker 2:I knew from about age 14 that I that's what I wanted to do it's not even unusual to hear anyone say um, you know, when they were younger they didn't know that being a writer could be a job like. There's such a strange little disconnect between right, you know, reading books and being surrounded by books, whether it's at home or going to the libraries. But there's such a disconnect between thinking oh, actually, I could do this and potentially make a living at it and this could be my job. This is what I'm going to put down in occupation when I fill out.
Speaker 1:I think it's because, like most people typically don't know an author or, you know, I didn't know anyone who'd published a book. I knew that people wrote them. I just, yeah, there was. There wasn't that connection between oh, I could do that as a job.
Speaker 2:Great, yeah, um, yeah, yeah, I have my teacher and it's a thing and I, because even when I think about school and I'm with my teacher like saying you know, you're good, you're a good writer, you're good, your creative writing is really good stuff. But no one ever said oh, nadine, would you like think about being a writer? Maybe is a correct. It was just you know, you'll do well to get an A in your GCSE. Move on, it's so true. So when you first wrote your book, like what was your intention? What were you looking for?
Speaker 1:uh, this particular book um.
Speaker 1:I wanted to write something that incorporated a plot twist that I had come up with and my fear of fire. I was trying to think of a story that could work those two things together. I wanted to write something that was quite diverse in terms of the characters. I wanted to write a book with strong female leads. I did something that was just really entertaining. I didn't want to write anything that was too dark and heavy. I know it's crime, but I wouldn't say it's very dark and gritty, kind of gory crime, and I just really wanted to write something that was brighter than that. That was my tip list of what I wanted to write something that was bright and well. So that was like my tip list of what I wanted to choose.
Speaker 2:You know, you said you're scared of fire and obviously you write about fire in the Deadly Spark, were you ever? I don't know if concerned is the right word to use, but was there any like fear about writing? Yeah, a fear about writing about what you're scared of, because I don't like bridges. This is my thing. I don't like bridges, and I don't know if I can sit there and put myself in writing about a book. I don't know. I don't know throwing people off a bridge. I don't know. How do you put yourself into that frame of mind?
Speaker 1:I don't know. I mean it didn't occur to me as I was writing. I think I've heard someone say, like, when you're writing things like crime or horror or the darker side of fiction, um, if you kind of explore your fears a little bit, you can get like a really realistic, um sense of fear through the writing. Um, I don't know, I mean it. I think I was fine writing about it, but I am still terrified of fire, um, but I, yeah, I had to do quite a lot of research about it, which probably wasn't the most fun thing for me to do research, um, but no, it was okay how far did you go with your research?
Speaker 2:because I always say the trick of research is that is, knowing, not to just info dump like everything you've learned about the subject in your book. Because I feel like when you're when you're doing the research and you spend so, because you can literally spend so much time going down rabbit holes of wherever your research takes you, and you just feel like I need to put this all in the book. I need to show you everything that I've learned.
Speaker 1:Yeah, look at me, I've got my homework. Um, now I say my, my father-in-law is an ex-firefighter and so a lot of the research came from just having conversations and discussions. So I'd be like what would happen in this situation? Or, if I want this to happen, what would need to happen first? And so we had some really great conversations about the process, um, like the terminology, the things that firefighters do, um the police side of things. I probably didn't do anywhere near enough research, but I'm waiting to be called out. I've not had I think I've only had a couple of things called out. Oh, that happened, um, but then I'm like well, it's fiction, so who cares?
Speaker 1:because I don't know like. There's a lot of crime fiction out there, especially police procedures that are written by people that used to be in the police or used to be detective or their partner is, and I have absolutely no connections, apart from a couple of friends who work in the police. Um, you know, I did a bit of googling and asking questions in various facebook groups and things. I didn't want to over proceduralize it and I didn't want to make it too heavy on the police anyway and you know my editor's tips that I'll just check that.
Speaker 1:That would definitely happen. That way I would say it's like 80% realistic I, I always say that because someone read it and said they thought that I had worked in the police because it was so accurate. And I was really shocked about that because I don't think I deserve that praise at all.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm reading it and I didn't for one second think well, that sounds completely unrealistic and made up. Because I always feel and it is because when I use my background as a criminal solicitor I always say that sometimes you can and it's happened to me that you're sticking so rigidly to either the law or even the procedure that you kind of write yourself into a hole, into a corner, because the story doesn't fit with it. And it happened to me and I was like I need to. You know, I know what the law is. I need to make sure I stick with the law because I don't need anyone calling me up saying, Nadine, like you know, but you know better than this, You've been doing this for 20 years, like what is wrong with you. But then I had to tell myself literally one day I had to say to myself you can make it up, as long as the rest of the world you're building feels authentic. You can bend, you know, you can bend the legal rules a little bit. You can bend the procedure a bit yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's. The key is it's got to feel authentic. It doesn't necessarily have to be 100% authentic. Like my friend who's a detective, she authentic. It doesn't necessarily have to be 100% authentic. Like my friend who's a detective. She said you don't want it to be 100% authentic because it would be boring as anything. Yeah, but it is boring, yeah, exactly, and a fiction. So.
Speaker 2:But yeah, thankfully I've only had a couple of small comments yeah doesn't mean when I think about law and I think about going to court, if a lot of it is boring, a lot of it is. If I was to literally write, um, what happens to line to line for the line, what happens in a police interview, you would fall asleep. Or if you just close the book and say I am not, this would be a dnf.
Speaker 1:Did not finish because yeah I think the thing that's worse than writing a slightly inaccurate book is writing a boring book, because I'd rather annoy someone a bit with a bit of procedure that's a little bit wrong than bore someone so they don't finish the book.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what surprised you most about the industry now that you're in it? Although I said our view of publishing when you have no involvement in it whatsoever prior to becoming a writer, it's completely influenced by what you've seen on tv and what you've read. So what surprised you most about it now, now that you're in? Well, yeah, now that you're in it.
Speaker 1:I think probably the slowness of publishing in general, because I wasn't expecting it to be so long from writing the book publishing it, so that was a bit of a shock. Honestly, this is a nice surprise.
Speaker 1:It's just how lovely everyone is like other authors, and like going to events and speaking to people and everyone just seems so happy to help each other out. There's no like competition not from the people that I've spoken to anyway. There doesn't seem to be any competition. Everyone's just so nice and I really wasn't expecting such a sense of community when you think about how solitary writing is as a job, just how welcoming and friendly everyone is. I just thought that was just so great.
Speaker 1:And I get in blurbs for my books. I know the authors were really lovely. I was expecting no one to have time to do it, but I got some really nice ones and it just really feels like everyone's just one to have time to do it. But it's a really nice one and it just really feels like everyone's just trying to give you a leg up. It's lovely.
Speaker 2:Does it feel like you know, like all the delay I said a delay, but you know all that lead up time, all that waiting was like was worth it in the end.
Speaker 1:Oh, 100% yeah. When I got to, when I got to my launch party and I saw my book on the shelf from Waterstones, I was like, yeah, that is worth all the aggro, all the restructures and stuff that I had to do, all the crying I did. Yeah, it was so, so worth it. But how do you get through those moments?
Speaker 2:you know those moments when you are sitting in front of your computer and like you can't make it work. You can't like the characters. They're not doing what you want them to do, they're just behaving like a character. The story's not playing out. How do you manage those moments? Because I always think that it doesn't matter how many courses you may have done, how many I don't know know webinars, how many zooms you've attended, or like how to write, nothing can prepare you for those moments when it's just you in front of the screen trying to make something work yeah, I've had a lot of those moments where I'm just, like you said, staring at the screen like I cannot fix this.
Speaker 1:I mean, I'm quite lucky that my um with my agent when we were preparing the book to go out on sub, she was very good at not just telling me where things weren't working but coming up with suggestions or offering up time to do brainstorming. So I did have someone to bounce ideas off of, which was brilliant if I was really stuck on something. I find going away and doing something else where I can focus, away from the screen, helps me. So sometimes, sometimes I find just going for a swim like I'll just put my goggles on and swim underwater so that I haven't got any kind of distractions around me I find I can really work through some plot issues when I'm doing that or a long walk somewhere yeah, if I can find the time. It doesn't feel as productive, but it is technically writing time because you do sometimes just need that time when you're not staring at the screen.
Speaker 2:I find Is there anything about this process and going through this and being a debut? Is there any? Has this process taught you anything about yourself that surprised you?
Speaker 1:I, yeah, I'm surprised how well I've taken criticism, because I my whole life I've been quite, a um sensitive soul and I've never really taken criticism. Well, um, there's only been one review that made me take a step back and think, oh god, okay, that was brutal. And I think once I had that review because everyone gets them, don't they? Um, I've sort of dusted myself off and then, ever since then, anything that's been vaguely negative I've been fine with, and you know getting the feedback from agent and editors and anyone that's had any kind of input into it. I surprised myself at how well I took it. I wasn't sure if I was going to be very protective over my writing and not want to take feedback on board, but honestly, it's because it's made the book such a better book. Um, yeah, I really I'm glad I handled it well.
Speaker 2:It could have gone either way, I know, because I think criticism is such a it's I say it's such a difficult. It can be such a difficult thing to handle and I think especially when it comes to something like you writing, but I think just generally when it's anything creative, because, yeah, it's not, it's more than just a job, if that makes sense. I've said it before, like if I was criticized by a client, if I was representing them, I could easily. But I could brush it off really easy, like whatever, like I've done my best, I've done the best job that I can. You're probably not happy with the result, even though I probably advised you of the result, but I've done the best job I've can and I'm just gonna I'm just gonna move on to the other one. But I think when it comes to something creative, that's literally it's like it's more than like your blood and sweat and tears. It feels like your soul. You put everything out there.
Speaker 1:I think as well, because, with writing, you're doing it because you love it and because it means so much to you, um, and like you said, I think it would be the same if it was a painting or something else that you've put so much love into because, let's face it, we probably put a lot more love and attention into the things we're passionate about, like writing, rather than day jobs.
Speaker 1:so I think it is easy to take it personally, but I've definitely found, as I've gone along the process, I've got more and more of a thick skin. So, yeah, people can say whatever they want to me and I'll be absolutely fine with it.
Speaker 2:What made you look at your review, though? Because you always read. On social media, there's always some people who'll be like never look at them, and some people will be like no.
Speaker 1:I and some people be like no.
Speaker 2:I read all of them and I'm more of the. I'll avoid it if I can. If I get tagged in on something, then whatever, but I'm not purposely going out to look for them.
Speaker 1:I'm the opposite. I read all of them like every couple of days. Every couple of days I go to the most recent. I liked it. Oh my god. I mean, I don't know. I think it. I think probably because they have been good mostly. Um, so for me it's every time I read a good review. It's that a little bit of extra validation that you know, I can't keep on.
Speaker 1:Like the book it's okay. Um, you know, apart from that first it was the first, maybe the first or second net valley review, which was the one that was like oh, I can't believe you said that. Um, other than that, they've been mostly good and positive, so it's actually quite a nice. It's quite a nice book.
Speaker 2:Um and when I do get one.
Speaker 1:They're like, oh, it's not for me. I'm like, yeah, fair enough, it's not for everyone. Nothing is for everyone. Um, yeah, I just I enjoy reading them. I don't know if I feel like that. I've got to look at things or if I write something really terrible and everyone hates it, I probably won't want to read those reviews, but for now it's quite nice.
Speaker 2:I think, though, um, I think, like with NetGalley, though, that you can kind of um, that's what I'm looking for not be objective. You can just kind of just like turn a blind eye to it, because there's a lot. I feel there's a lot of people just go on there and they're just they're just trying to get any free book they can, whether it's something they're going to read or not. And then when you do get because I've seen them on net, when my books have gone up there on netgalley and you might get a flurry of oh, I love it, it's amazing, I can't wait, I'm so pleased I got this and then you do get the one and twos was like this is not my sort of thing. I don't like this. I would never read it. I'm like well, why are you reading it? Why did you ask for it? Yeah, why do?
Speaker 2:you can I ask you about rejection because I was reading for them when I was online doing my research. You could tell me if I'm wrong, did you get 50 agent rejections?
Speaker 1:it was about that. Yeah, I think I've got the original spreadsheet tracker that I set up and it's around the 50 mark um, which, from speaking to other authors, seems quite normal.
Speaker 2:I think only well, um, from this, from thinking back to all the interviews I've had, all the conversations I've had, I don't think it's a lot. Um, I think I don't't know if it was Sean Cosby. I say Cosby had like a hundred Maybe, but you're not the first person. I'm always fascinated by the ones who keep spreadsheets, because I don't have it within me to sit there and go on Excel and create a spreadsheet and then start logging off. I would start and then I would give up after. I'm like I haven't got time for this. Whatever happens, happens.
Speaker 1:I don't want to submit to the same person twice by accident or something. No, I mean, I'm quite um, I'm quite a spreadsheet person.
Speaker 1:I'm not gonna lie um it. It helped me just to track who I submit to and when, and you know how many weeks I should leave it before chasing and things like that. Um, but to be honest, it was, I say, 50 rejections, but probably just under half of them I didn't even get a response from anyway, so it wasn't technically a rejection, they just never got around to it. There's still an agent out there that asked for my full manuscript, um in 2020 and still to this day, never said yes or no I mean, I'll have an agent, I'll sound like a therapist now.
Speaker 2:But how did that make you feel? Because you know, when you, if you're talking to anyone else who's not in this industry and saying, yeah, I've been rejected 50, I'm not even and I'm not even talking about being an actor or anything, they're just doing something completely different. You say, yeah, I've been rejected 50 times, I'm not even and I'm not even talking about being an actor or anything, they're just doing something completely different. You say, yeah, I've been rejected 50 times doing this, they'll be like, why do you? Why do you keep going?
Speaker 1:yeah, I mean, I think, when it's something you've been dreaming about, you just a little bit more resilient, right? So it's something I wanted to do for a very long time.
Speaker 1:I didn't want to let something like that get in the way although I had got to the point where I was like maybe this book isn't going to be my debut, so I actually stopped right, I stopped working on that. One started working on a sequel. Well, I think it got a different book for the same characters, um, and then that's when things started to happen with the first one, after I'd already given up on it. Um, I think in my head I was like I've applied to 50 different agents.
Speaker 2:If I don't get anywhere, then obviously it's no good what would be your um, like your number one advice, maybe even number one, like maybe maybe it's in your top five like advice to not just not just necessarily just people, writers looking for the deal, but to debut, because it is such a long period, because once you're in there, next thing you know you're suddenly on like one book a year, or you may negotiate someone to do two books a year, but generally you're doing like one book a year, but you have that moment. I think you have that, that space where you're just waiting. Since you've been in that space recently, what would your advice be to new debuts?
Speaker 1:um, I mean, the thing is with advice, because there's so much out there, there's so much that I wish I'd have known when I was a debut or before before, before my book came out, and I think I think, um just not to take any kind of criticism personally, like, if you're in the position where you're going through the edits process and you're getting feedback and criticism suggestions, I personally would take everything on board. Um, if I published my first book the way it was when I first wrote it, it would be so, so bad, um, it's such a better book now. I've taken all these suggestions and comments on board, um. So I think, just as soon as you can just get on board with being okay with feedback, um, because the other thing as well is, once you get to the point where it's published, you're going to keep getting feedback, so you kind of need to be okay with it. Like you're going to get readers that don't like it. You're going to get bloggers that review it and don't like it like that's going to happen, um. So I think, if you can just like get your head space, get your head into the right space early on, um, and then, other than that, I think there's lots of ways, lots of things you can do as well to help spread the word about your book as well.
Speaker 1:Um, so there's lots of little things I did to help my marketing and PR team out. Um, because, as we know, the team, they're all very stretched, the team's all quite stretched. They've got a lot of books coming out all the time, so they have to spread themselves quite thinly. Um, even in the big publishers. There's lots of things I did, like sending up press releases to local press and setting up in radio interviews and reaching out to podcasters. Um, walking into bookshops and asking if they have my book, do they want me to sign copies? Or, if they don't have my book, telling them about it. Um, but obviously you can go too far with those kinds of things as well, and it just really depends on how much time you have on your hands. I mean, I've got a two-year-old and it's.
Speaker 1:You know I haven't been anywhere near as much as I wanted to and so kind of tips, which is the things that I think will benefit me the most a bit of a mindful.
Speaker 2:I wanted to ask you because I was reading, I was on your website, I think I was on your website and you said how you'd gone to. You'd gone to Capital Crime Festival with your submission package printed. Yeah, if your submission package printed.
Speaker 1:Printed it Like what? That wasn't, I wasn't age, but anyway it was keen. Like, yeah, I printed out like five copies and thinking I would hang them out. What was that?
Speaker 2:That's what I was thinking, I was like what, and I know the bit about hindsight, right, and I probably sound like a little bit like what was she thinking? I'm being all stuck. I bit like what was she thinking? I'm being all stuck. I was like no. But then I was like what were you thinking? But back then 2019, when you printed out your five copies, what were you? I don't know what were you thinking, roxy?
Speaker 1:I had my rucksack and I had five. I remember I had five copies printed and then my friend who's a graphic designer had designed me a cover because I thought it would stand out more. And then my team at work lesson they'd had a notebook made with my book cover on it, and that's where I had a conversation. So people said is that your book? When I'm taking notes I'm like yeah, but it's not published. Um, I had business cards made and everything like. I was like such, oh, it's quite cringy now when I think about it. I was just so excited. I've never been to a crime right in Bethel before anything like that and I just I was so nervous and I just wanted to be so prepared. Um, I remember walking in with my rucksack and thinking I don't know anyone here. But that's when I realised everyone was so lovely. But, needless to say, I did not hand out any printed manuscripts to anybody.
Speaker 2:They went in the recycling bin.
Speaker 2:I shouldn't laugh right, because by then, on the flip side of that, I'm just thinking. I'm thinking back to what my first boss used to say to me, my first first boss when I was working as a once I'd qualified as a solicitor and he always used to say to me in the very beginning just act as if. Like, just act as if you're supposed to be there. Just, whatever the situation is, whatever you know you're going into something new, just act as if you're the best. And I always say that when I'm teaching the baby lawyers um, you know, and I'm saying you know, I'm like your first day in court you're gonna say to yourself I said it, you don't want to be there.
Speaker 2:I'm like I don't know anything, I've made a mistake. What am I doing? You're gonna have all these thoughts in your head, but you just have to tell yourself I am the best, I am the queen, I am this, I am that. Tell yourself what, just act as if, just to get you over that first hurdle. So I think, yeah, so, hindsight, I'm like, what were you doing? But the other side of me is like you did that.
Speaker 1:Honestly, I mean it's funny. I laugh at myself for that. No, no, no, I mean I think it was only a few months later where I got my agent anyway. Um, so I was kind of like, I think I thought I was going to be able to pitch to agents who probably don't want to be pitched at at something like that. I pitched to one agent, um, and yeah, I don't know, I remember I was there for like the whole of the three days. I was very nervous. I managed to find some very extroverted people to hang out with who helped me come out my standards, but, um, yeah, I achieved my aim of pitching to one agent while I was there.
Speaker 1:That's what I wanted to do, and I meet some authors, which I did listeners.
Speaker 2:It's time for a very short break. If you're enjoying this conversation with Nadine Matheson, I want to help keep the podcast going. Why not buy me a cup of coffee? Your support goes such a long way in keeping these conversations flowing. Just check out the link in the show notes. Did it ever um, you know once you're in it. So you're here now you know you have your book published. Did it ever surprise you like how much you have to put yourself out there, like it's not just enough for your book?
Speaker 1:enough for your book just to be published. Like you, you have to do more. Yeah, I think I had a vague idea that I would probably be required to do a little bit more. Um, because I'd been sort of because I've been like reading and reviewing and blogging and things like that. I've been following a lot of authors and I'd noticed that they were doing lots of interviews and attending festivals and obviously when I went to Capital Crime I was like OK they're on a stage that's sporting, like, oh, ok, am I going to be expected to do this?
Speaker 1:And then, as I got a bit further in, I thought, ok, not everyone gets to do those things. I didn't realise how, you know, there's actually so many people writing books and so few positions on panels, and so I kind of switched to like, oh, I'll be really lucky if I get to do those things. Um, so then I kind of like started panicking and thinking I have a fear of public speaking. I have a list that I'm really self-conscious about. Do I need to do speech therapy just in case I get offered to do an interview or something? All these things like going through my head because I'm quite a panicker. In the end, it's fine. I did a few podcasts in the beginning, which got me used to this kind of thing, and then I've started a couple of panels now, which have been really lovely, and I do feel very grateful to be invited onto them. But yeah, I wouldn't have. I didn't realise, like all those years ago, back in 2019 when I wrote this book, that people would actually want to talk to me about it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I suppose it makes sense as well. And also, when you think back in 2019, it was a different world, like I hadn't heard of zoom. It's 2019. Yeah, the only time I'd ever and I say for work purposes where I'd have to and I say online in quotes was if I was in court and we had what we call video link hearings, and that was because my client was in a prison somewhere and they couldn't bring him down to the courtroom. Or I'm doing a bail application. Just it just didn't make any sense to bring the, to waste time bringing the client and just do it over video link.
Speaker 2:So you know and that was like I'm just saying 15 minutes just in the courtroom and that was it wasn't. It wasn't a way of life like it is now.
Speaker 1:No, it's so different, isn't it Like? I think we have Skype, but I kind of associate it with when you've got a friend who lives in another country or something like that was what video calls were for. Yeah, it's really changed.
Speaker 2:Skype is what I use to talk to my friend Claire in Australia.
Speaker 1:I wasn't using any I wasn't using any form of video calling.
Speaker 2:But then I think that in a sense that because we had well, you was kind of was forced into this online world for everything not only just talking to your friends and family, but also being able to work in a sense, it kind of maybe like prepared new writers for promoting themselves in that way when their books were published in that pandemic now post-pandemic period well.
Speaker 1:I also think it gives more options because, like, obviously it can be quite hard to get onto festival panels, um, but it is a bit easier to do these more one-on-one digital interviews and podcast meetings, so it's kind of given us a lot more options of ways to promote ourselves. I think I feel like there's more podcasts around as well now, and probably because of because of lockdown and everything, um, yeah, I just definitely opened it up and also to people that have, um, accessibility needs as well, or I just too nervous to do these big festivals and things because they're really overwhelming they are.
Speaker 2:I mean even, and I say even for me. I always say like I'm, you know, I've always talked for a living, like that's always been my, it's always been my job. I talk, I talk for a living. I go in court and I talk for a living if I, if I'm teaching, I'm, I'm talking. But there's a vast difference between me standing in a courtroom, whether it's before a judge or standing before a jury or just standing before a classroom. It's a big difference between that and walking onto a stage in Harrogate and just seeing a sea of people and then wanting to hear from you and the first one.
Speaker 2:I had to do that. That, and I've never been mic'd up before to talk. You know, I go into a courtroom, there's a mic in front of me, but I always, like my opening to a client or to the witness on the stand is all in the witness box actually is to say, yeah, the mics aren't there to amplify, they're just there to record. So you know, that's, that's all I had of a mic. So go for that whole thing. So it's the build-up of. Now. I'm going to put the mics on you. Can you take your earrings off, because you don't want the mic to get tangled up in your earring and then you walk out on and see this crowd, you're like, oh my god, because I think for me I can't hide behind, um, like my, my gown and my wig and my collaret, and the case I can't hide behind that it's, then it's all me, and I think that's a big adjustment to make or something to get used to your panel.
Speaker 1:How I got this here. The amount of people in that tent was huge. There's just so many people in there.
Speaker 2:This has been a full house yeah, and I think the first time yeah, well, it's the first time I did it and you walk out and you're like oh my god. In your head. You're like, oh my god, all these people don't say anything stupid. But it's a combination of don't say anything stupid and also they want to be entertained. It's like combination of don't say anything stupid and also they want to be entertained. It's like can I entertain them? I don't think I'm helping anybody right now, but you just have to. I think the key is I say the key you just have to just relax and just be yourself as best as you can. That's the only thing.
Speaker 1:Just remember, it'll be over in 45 minutes yeah, I mean my panel that I just did at Bloody Scotland was the first one I've been mic'd up for, um, and that was probably about 50 people maybe, and that in itself felt like whoa um. But you're right, you just relax into it and just just chat and it was lovely. It was really nice um, a really lovely experience, but I don't know how I'd feel about a performance size, of how I get that.
Speaker 2:A lot of people it is a lot of people. But the best thing that happens afterwards is when you know you go and do your signing and then people come up and they want to talk to you. And then even afterwards, when you're in the tent, and people come up and talk to you like oh, they like me, oh, that's nice that is that.
Speaker 2:That is a nice bit. That is a nice bit. So you know your book with um, with the deadly spark and your character, because I get asked all the time, which I just think is hilarious, because I always have the same answer like no, the characters aren't me. Like henley is not me. I think the only similar things we have are, um, I'll say, our families are from the same Caribbean island and we both like Adidas, that's it. That's it. So have you ever asked if your character is Eve? Is you?
Speaker 1:No, I've been asked if she was based on anyone. I haven't actually been asked if she was based on me, but no, she's not based on me. If she was based on me but no, she's not based on me. I sort of based her on two TV detectives that I really liked watching. She kind of started off as a blend of those two and then kind of morphed into her own character. Really, there's very little in common between me and my protagonists that's good to hear, because I've always been the worst thing.
Speaker 2:It's like no, it's not me. Like why would you think it's me? That's because I've written a character who happened and I think just happens to be female. And I'm a female. They think it must. You must be looking at yourself in the mirror and thinking this is who I need to put on the page no, I don't think me on the page of a book would be the best idea.
Speaker 1:I don't think I'd make a good character.
Speaker 2:No, so what's next for you in your but no, not even that what is your idea of success? I always think that's an interesting question to ask what is your idea?
Speaker 1:of success so for me, it would be to publish more books featuring a starling as a series. Um, I've always wanted to publish a series. I have lots more to write for these characters. Um, you know, like I said, the set in Brighton. There's so many more places in Brighton that I want to talk about and places that things can happen, places people could get killed.
Speaker 2:Um, yeah, I just when I was out on my walk this morning and I was looking at the river and bearing in mind that was that that looking at the river and seeing the tide out is like part of the inspiration for the first book. But I was looking at another spot on the riverbank, I was like, yeah, you could put someone there and you know me saying that to you sounds perfectly reasonable. You're not looking at me thinking the thing you need help, but you couldn't really say that to anyone else. Like where?
Speaker 1:could I?
Speaker 2:put some. Where could I put a body in Brighton?
Speaker 1:and this is why crime writers need friends who are crime writers, because you can have these conversations about I'm going, why that is really dark. Go and get some help. So that would be another piece of advice for the writers. Find other writers, get in some WhatsApp groups or Facebook groups or something where you can talk about this stuff, because you'll go mad otherwise. No, it's not fun.
Speaker 1:Google's actually not being good. Yeah, I forgot where I was going Idea of success, okay. So, yeah, I'd like a long-standing series. That would be amazing to be able to keep writing these characters. Um, I mean, for me I'm kind of like just just the fact that I've published a book and I've seen it in a bookshop for me I'm like I've made it. That was the dream. So I'm trying to not get too hung up in what's next, what's next, what's next, and just be like I'm so happy that I got here, like, because it's so hard to just get to this point. So I feel like anything else is bonus at this point onwards. Now, yeah, um, and that'll help me deal with disappointment, I think, thinking that way. Um, I'd like to write other genres as well, because I'm not tied to crime. Um, yeah, I think I don't know. Really, I'm still very much in this, like I can't believe.
Speaker 1:I'm here, so obviously there's things like oh my god, imagine if one of my books got turned into a tv series. I mean like we all think about things like that, don't we yeah, and I was so excited it was gonna be an audience like that.
Speaker 2:For me was like wow it's really hearing your hearing your book as an audio, hearing your book as an audio book. It's, it's really, I say, strange, firstly hearing your words being spoken back to you, but then also hearing how an actress or any other actor interprets the characters that you've created.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean my narrator, Imogen Wilde, did such a good job Like I listen to it back, really enjoying it. She just did it right. It was perfect. I was so, so happy with how she narrated it. She got all the accents really like just spot on. Like I don't know how many original accents were in the book till I had it being read back to me well, you asked if you wanted to.
Speaker 2:Um wanted to narrate it because I was asked and I was like no, no, no, no no, no, no.
Speaker 1:I wasn't asked and I would have absolutely said no if I was asked. But lots of people said to me like, oh, are you going to narrate your book? Have you heard my voice? I'm not an actor. I can't narrate my book. I can't do any of those.
Speaker 2:I think that's the thing because I'm like I can read. I can read the book, no problem, I can read it out to you. You need someone to yeah, but doing a reading is not the same thing as because they're acting and you need the accents, you need the inflections, you need all of that and no, it's not me today leave it to people that know what they're doing.
Speaker 1:That is their job. We write the books, they can read them perfectly and everyone is happy. And yeah but yeah, big dreams. Obviously a TV series and I would love, I'd love to get some kind of bestseller status. We didn't get it with the Duffield Park, but you know, you never know you know what you never know.
Speaker 2:Because then you know life has a funny way of working out your. They can make a tv series of the deadly spark or turn into a Netflix movie, and then that then bumps up the book and then it chucks it back into the Sunday time into the bestsellers list, and then you get your flag, you get your sticker on your book.
Speaker 1:It's a dream. It's just a dream. I'm just so happy that it's published and it's in some bookshops and people reading it. That just makes me so happy. So yeah, like I said, anything else from this point is a bonus.
Speaker 2:Who would you cast as um Eve Starlin?
Speaker 1:I would cast to pronounce her name correctly. Kaya Scodelario played Effie in Skins when she was a teenager and I think she was in. She's like just the perfect look and she. I think she can do the attitude quite well.
Speaker 2:That you've had a little bit of going on you know, um, before I go on to your last set of questions, um, you know when you're talking about. You need to have your right. You need to have crime right of friends. They know what they're talking, so no one's scared by what you're talking about. This happened yesterday. Was it yesterday or Sunday or whatever day? It was just a couple of days ago and I was talking to my friend. We're sending each other voice notes. We're both crime writers and we're talking about, obviously, at some point we're talking about our books, um, and maybe what we're researching and stuff. And the next message she said my sister was over, could overhear the voice note and she said thank you guys. If I didn't know that you were both crime writers, I'd be really, really concerned and I'd have to call the police yeah, it's a risky little game, isn't it?
Speaker 2:it is you, you know, because I'm walking and thinking about where I can put people. You're walking around Brighton thinking where you can put them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm literally looking for. I'm looking for murder spots like this week, until I'm here.
Speaker 2:It's a funny life, right? So, roxy, would you like to tell the listeners of the conversation about the deadly spark?
Speaker 1:Yes, that would be great. So the deadly spark is a blend of psychological suspense and police cathedral. Set in Brighton, it follows a detective called Eve Starling who is investigating a fatal arson attack which killed a mother and her daughter. There are some flashbacks as well in the past to help the reader realise why she's struggling quite a lot with this case emotionally. And then at the same time, we've got another timeline with a character called Anya, who is the girlfriend of the woman who died in the fire um, the same night before she threw herself off the cliff that Steve had, and whether it's grief or guilt is Eve's job to find out it's very good.
Speaker 2:I can tell people, tell the listeners, it's very good and you should, should get it. Thank you so much. You should get it. You're welcome. You're welcome, right? So, roxy, your questions Are you an introvert, extrovert or a hybrid of the two?
Speaker 1:I'm an introvert who is being forced to be an extrovert. So, yes, I'm pretending to be an extrovert, as I do all of these things. Yeah naturally introverted. Yeah, telling to be a lecturer as I do all of these things, yeah, yeah. No, it's easier than I thought. The more I do, the better I'm getting used to it all right.
Speaker 2:So what challenge or experience in your life shaped you the most?
Speaker 1:having a child. Um, I think I took having time, free time for granted and writing the first book a lot easier than writing the second, in terms of how much time I had to do it.
Speaker 2:Did you feel because your daughter's two isn't she? Did you look back at your book differently after?
Speaker 1:having her. Yeah, I couldn't write a story about a child, anything happening to a child. Now I didn't got that book out of the way before I had kids and I just when I read it back afterwards I thought, oh, wow, okay, if I was a parent reading that it would get me, I think.
Speaker 1:But to write about something like that, I think I would struggle not that I mean if anyone's seen it who hasn't read it, like it's not graphic, no, anything like that. But I just don't think I could. I could write that anything not while I've got a young child.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I remember being at Harrogate a couple years ago and it was the Q&A section and one of the audience members asked if there was any subject that, yeah, any subject that we wouldn't write about, and I think a couple yeah, I think a couple on the panel said they wasn't right and, with the bone in mind, I think all of our books at the time was all I think you know. So perform doing the worst of the worst, and a couple of them said they wouldn't write about a child being murdered, and I think I very much just put my lawyer hat on, which is just that. I've had to deal with the worst of the worst. Yeah, my day job. So I think I just go into it with a completely different. I've got armor all around me, like I don't. I'm like Superman. Yeah, just compartmentalize it. Just, I'm just.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I have to do it that way yeah, definitely, I think I'd give most subject matters a go, but yeah, I think it would be harder has anyone said that?
Speaker 2:I said uh mentioned that in the reviews that you've read.
Speaker 1:What about the? What? Would that particular bit be difficult? Yeah, not in a review. I've had a friend who's got that age or the same age as the little girl in the book and he said that was of the little girl in the book and he said, oh, that was, that was emotional. But you know, I guess you know you want to write things to make people feel something. You know, like I said, I haven't written anything that's going to be painful to read. But I think sometimes when you read books like this, you kind of put yourself in the shoes of the characters, like, oh, what if that happened to me? What happened to my friend or my sister or my kid? Like you kind of kind of can't help thinking of that, can't you? That's why I find some books I mean some crime books I've had to put down because they've been too dark and just too close. But I think it's a sign of a good writer. Like I think they're brilliant writers. I just can't get no, I don't.
Speaker 2:I don't think that's unusual at all. I think there's some books and I'm like not. And even for me, I'm like you know what? Not today. Yeah, I need to read some romance or something. No, all right, I'm going to change the age for you. If you could go back to when you were 21 years old and give yourself one piece of advice, what would it be?
Speaker 1:21, um, so I was fresh out of uni, um, just finished my creative writing degree, so I think I was trying to write a children's fantasy story at the time. And so I'd probably go back and tell myself I think I was trying to write a children's fantasy story at the time. So I'd probably go back and tell myself I think, outside the box, read some different genres, because this is not the genre for you. But yeah, the advice would be just, you know, read more widely, just spend a bit of time. You're probably not going to write the book that you're going to get published when you're 21. Live a bit of time. You're probably not going to write the book that you're going to get published when you're 21. Live a bit, spend some time living life and reading different things and having different experiences, and then, when you do come to write your books, you'll have a lot more to write about and a lot more to say.
Speaker 2:And finally, roxy Key. Where can listeners of the the conversation find you online?
Speaker 1:So my website is roxykeycom and all my links are on there. But on social media and pretty much everywhere I'm Roxy Adele Key and then TikTok and Facebook Roxy Key author, but it's all on roxykeycom.
Speaker 2:Did someone take your name. This is what we're discovering. I don't know why it's come up lately. Why is this your handle? Because someone took my name.
Speaker 1:I think Rocksticky was taken and put my middle name in. I actually don't know what possessed me to do a different username on my TikTok. I don't know why I did that no idea, it's a stupid decision. But yeah, it's all linked from. I don't know why I did that no idea, stupid decision.
Speaker 2:But yeah, it's all linked from my website anyway, so you can find me any of those places it's because there's no guide, there's no how to guide to be an author before you start, you just throw yourself in there and think this is what I should do, and then halfway through, as you're working away for your career, like maybe I should not have done that, maybe I should have done something slightly different yeah, there's so many things like that like I wish I'd give you like a how-to guide to survive your first year publishing your first book.
Speaker 1:There's so many things I think, oh, I should have done that, I shouldn't have done that. I don't know, maybe someone's written a book about that.
Speaker 2:I don't know. I think someone should.
Speaker 1:Maybe it should be an idiot's guide, I think, just for people.
Speaker 2:It's just so much to think about what would you put in there before we go? What would you put in your idiot's guide to be a?
Speaker 1:debut. Boring and important stuff like registering, registering for PLR and things like that um, yeah, you know, get an accountant. Like registering for tax, tax returns, like all, like all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1:Um, right, you know writing and press releases if you're doing your own marketing and pr and setting up your amazon author profile, the places that you need to set up profiles to make sure you can. You know, like you know, I've got good reads and stuff like that like up and linked to books. There's just lots of little technical things. I've got a list on my phone that I think for my friend to share on Twitter and then I copy and pasted it onto my notes to keep, like it was years ago.
Speaker 1:So I've added for over the years of like bits that I've gleaned from other people. So I've kind of got my own idiot side in a note format. But I feel like that just needs to be out there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because I cannot, for the life of me, I cannot tell you how I found out about registering for PLR or the other one, al.
Speaker 2:Yes, no one, no one, I don't. I can't say. I read it somewhere. It's either I must have just picked it up or it must have been around the time when people are getting their PLR payments. Because now, once you're in, you know, once you're, you're published and you're in it, you suddenly you're much more aware, much more you're exposed to different parts of the industry, and I was. I think it must have been. It was that time where people are getting their payments. I'm like, well, what are you getting paid for? And then you realize, and then you're like, oh, I need to do this. But I can't think. If I'm lying, well, someone will mind, but I can't think of of anyone saying you should register for PLR, you should make sure you have your Amazon um author page, you know, are you going to be a sole trader? You're going to be a company? Oh, there's, oh, there's so many different. Yeah, all that all that stuff.
Speaker 1:Um, I think the closest thing I found to it was the one that Claire McIntosh shared on Twitter and I um saved it down years ago. Um, it was just like a list. It was like a really helpful list of things to do in the run-up to your book being published.
Speaker 1:Yeah, um it was a really, really good list, but somewhere, you know, she dealt through her tweet um, maybe I'll share it on my blog or something like on your blog. So much, yeah. I've just yeah, I've shared it to a few people that have asked like, oh, where do I start a lot of my books coming up, but there's probably other stuff as well, like that. I have probably all sorts of stuff I've missed. Who even knows?
Speaker 2:listen, it's probably how many years am I in? I'm when 2024, scott point, three years, four years I can't, I don't know four years in, and I'm sure there's stuff I'm still learning, there's stuff I'm still learning about. So it doesn't yeah, it doesn't just you suddenly, don't, you don't just know it all after book one, like you're constant, unfortunately, like you're constantly learning, which is never a bad thing no, that is very true, and things are always changing as well.
Speaker 1:So even if you do, you know everything, there's always going to be more before I go, before I go, before we go, do you have a?
Speaker 2:um? Do you know what book two is about? Are you allowed to talk about book two?
Speaker 1:so it's not under a contract at the moment and so I've written most of it. Um and I'm just waiting for a response from my publisher on that, because it was a one book deal but I can tell you it is a sequel, set in Brighton, again during Brighton Pride, where the headline act is found dead in a swimming pool at an after party, and there were many people at the party, but no one saw what happened. So you've already got my interest. Oh, that's good to know. Yeah, fingers crossed, that'll happen.
Speaker 2:I will have my fingers crossed for you, and that just leaves me just to say thank you so much for being part of the conversation.
Speaker 1:Thank you, it's been really good. I really enjoyed it.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for listening to today's conversation with Nadine Matheson. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. Be sure to tune in every Tuesday for a brand new episode featuring more amazing guests. Don't forget to like, subscribe and leave a review. It really helps the podcast grow and if you'd like to support the show, you can buy me a cup of coffee or sign up on patreon. The links are in the show notes and if you'd love to join the conversation as a guest, feel free to send an email to theconversation at nadinemaffersoncom. Thanks again for your support and I'll catch you next time.
Speaker 1:Thank, you Bye.
