Jamie West: Behind The Scenes of The Stage and the Page

Our episode features a riveting chat with author Jamie West, who brings a wealth of knowledge from his theatre background to the self-publishing scene. Jamie helps us draw fascinating parallels between the theatre and publishing, emphasising the value of all entertainment forms, from popular culture to high art.

Forget the notion of "guilty pleasures"—we champion the joy of consuming art in its myriad forms and talk about his new book, Murder At The Matinee. Experience the hard work that goes into crafting stories that resonate and entertain, and being an independent publisher.

Murder At The Matinee

Renowned murder mystery playwright Bertie Carroll returns, this time in London's West End, to solve the mystery of an impossible murder and the newspaper advert that preceded it.

Follow Jamie West

Read my substack article about book piracy. 

Chapters

• 0:00 The Impact of Book Piracy
• 5:41 The Influence of Entertainment Industries
• 11:56 The Influence of Observation and Tradition
• 22:23 The Journey to Writing Success
• 27:15 Discovering the Art of Storytelling
• 34:45 The Collaborative Process of Writing
• 41:53 Navigating the Publishing Industry
• 49:51 The Challenges of Self-Publishing
• 1:02:01 London Murder Mystery
• 1:06:26 Overcoming Writing Challenges and Expectations
• 1:10:01 Life Lessons and Self-Reflection

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

the same is true with books and all these things. It's like you can write a beautiful passage and it's like, yeah, but this doesn't fit in with the tone of anything else you've done. So having that, having an external eye and really being able to collaborate with those people really does make it kind of polishes this book up into something that is much better than I could do by myself hello and welcome to theation with Nadine Matheson.

Speaker 2: 0:26

As always, I hope that you're well and I hope that you've had a good week. I've had a very busy week and the rest of the month is going to be busy. There's just nothing I can do about it. That's the way it's going to be and that's because I am doing my edits. I am editing Henley Book 4, which has a title, but I'm not going to tell you the title because the title is going to change, but it has a title.

Speaker 2: 0:50

I'm doing my first round of edits and there's a lot of work to be done, but I actually enjoy doing my edits because, as far as I'm concerned, the hard part of the book was writing the first draft and then doing the rewrites. At this point I know that I'm nearly home. I mean, of course I've got to do line edits and copy edits, but I like doing edits, I like fixing things. So it's not bad and I know it's going to be done. But there's a reason why I'm telling you about edits and that's because being a writer is hard work. You don't just write a book, do one draft, send it off and it's on the shelves. It doesn't work like that. As I said there's going to be first draft, second draft, rewrites, structural edits, line edits, copy edits, what else? Proofreading and then it doesn't stop, because once your book is published, you then have to promote your books. And then it doesn't stop because once your book is published, you then have to promote your books, which is why it's very annoying. I'm just going to be upfront. It's very annoying when you discover that people are illegally downloading your books. Now I talk about book piracy in my latest Substack article. The link will be in the show notes, but I want to talk about it here because I know my listeners are made up of both readers and writers, and sometimes both your reader and a writer, and it was a shock to discover that 17% of ebooks are illegally downloaded.

Speaker 2: 2:19

Now I can probably correctly guess the thinking about this, because your favourite author has a book on the shelves and they have a lot of books on the shelves. You're thinking they've made it, they're raking it in. They must be absolutely loaded Listeners. Let me tell you most writers are not. Did you know that the average income for writers in the United Kingdom is £7,000, writers in the United Kingdom is £7,000, $8,000 in the US? £7,000, not 70, not 700,000, not 7 million £7,000. Now let's be honest. Who can survive on £7,000? No one, no one. Which is why you wouldn't be surprised to know that most of your favourite authors have a second job. Because people need to eat and they need to keep a roof over their head, and £7,000 a year is not going to keep either a roof over your head or put food in the fridge. So it's really frustrating when you discover that people are illegally downloading books, because there's a ripple effect to this, because this is how it works.

Speaker 2: 3:27

Writers need to be seen. Visibility is one of the most important things for a writer. Whether you're a debut, whether you've got 10 books out and you've been doing it for 20 years, it doesn't matter. All writers need visibility and this is how visibility works.

Speaker 2: 3:43

So you, the reader, go into your favourite bookshop. You've heard that Nadine Matheson has a new book out. You go to your favourite bookshop and you ask for Nadine Matheson's new book and they say, oh, we don't have a copy in, but we can order it. Your friend then goes to the bookshop and asks for a copy of my book. Bookseller thinks that's two people asking for Nadine's book. A third person goes in and asks for a copy of my book. Now the bookseller's thinking wow, there's a demand, let me order, not three, maybe I should order five, maybe six, maybe 10 copies of Nadine's new book. Now the publisher sees this and they think to themselves oh, the booksellers are putting in lots of pre-orders, there's a demand for Nadine. Her new book deal's due. Let's give her a really good deal so we can make sure we get new books from Nadine.

Speaker 2: 4:42

Now, that's not going to happen if readers are bypassing the bookshop, going online and going to book piracy websites. Now, I understand that one of the reasons why people may be going to book piracy websites is because books can be expensive. I understand that. So you know what you can do Go to your, your local library. Honestly, the library is the best thing to do. Not only are they amazing places, but I guarantee they will have multiple copies of whatever book you're after. And if they don't have a copy, you can reserve it. And if you don't want a hard copy, then you can borrow an e-book. There are so many options available to you other than going to a legal website to download books. So that's my simple request Bypass the websites and go to your library. And also again, if you visit your library, it shows that they're needed.

Speaker 2: 5:37

Ok, that's my PSA for today. Let's get on with the show. This week I'm in conversation with author Jamie West and in our conversation we talk about the answer to that age old question where do you find your inspiration? The similarities between the theatre and the law, and the immense hard work that goes into self-publishing. Now, as always, sit back or go for a walk and enjoy the conversation. Jamie West, welcome to the Conversation.

Speaker 1: 6:08

Thank you very much. Very excited to be here on this award-winning, award-nominated podcast right.

Speaker 2: 6:14

Oh, yes, my pleasure. Sorry, I have been shortlisted for an award. That was a nice surprise, and thank you, fingers crossed. I should just open all conversations with that short list for an award yeah, that would be nice. That would be nice. So, um Jamie, my first question for you is is there anything in your job? So we're talking about your job in the theatre, working behind the scenes and I know I'm minimizing it, it's not just working behind the scenes and I know.

Speaker 2: 6:45

I'm minimising it. It's not just working behind the scenes, but is there anything in your job in the theatre, being backstage seeing what goes on that has prepared you for life as an author and has also influenced your writing?

Speaker 1: 6:59

Yeah, I think it has in a way. I mean, like you said, I'm lucky because I work backstage, I'm not a performer or an actor, I don't have to deal with any of that stuff, but I've witnessed it a lot. You know, I've been doing this for I don't know however many years now, like 17, 18 years, and the theatre industry, entertainment industry in general, I guess, is kind of full of rejection. That sounds awful, um, but it is, and the actors, you see, are really the tip of an iceberg of people that are kind of just the lucky ones. Lots of people, as much as they strive, and even if you're the best actor in the world or the best dancer, you might not get the opportunity to be in a show.

Speaker 1: 7:44

Um, and that really did prepare me, I think, for being an author, because it's the same sort of journey.

Speaker 1: 7:52

You know, querying, sending your stuff out, is exactly like going to auditions as an actor, and again, you can be the best actor in the world and you might not get picked for that role just because you know it's no reflection on your talents, I guess. Um, so, yeah, I think that really did kind of prepare me for going out there dealing with, you know all the kind of stuff you get back um online and all those kinds of things. I mean, so far, anyway, I've had a ridiculously overwhelmingly positive experience with, like, my books and the readers and all the interactions I've had, and I know that's not, you know, true for everyone, um, but yeah, I think there really is kind of a parallel between the two things, because it's both. They're both entertainment industries and I think sometimes we don't think of writing like that, do we? We kind of think of writing as a more, you know, artistic kind of high art type thing, but actually both these industries are about entertaining an audience or entertaining your readers, aren't they, I reckon?

Speaker 2: 9:00

yeah, well, that's what you want at the end of the book. You want your reader to close that last page and you want them to feel all the emotions, whether they're good or oh my God, that scared the shit out of me. You want them to feel everything, but you do want them to come away feeling. I was so entertained by that that I want to recommend it to a friend, and I think that's what everybody wants.

Speaker 1: 9:27

Yeah, I was like I like I know sometimes I do like things. I'm just like, oh, that made me think it was like, oh, you're making me question myself. I'm like sometimes, just like you're not my mother, like you don't get to preach to me, like sometimes I do just want out and out entertainment and actually in a lot of out and out entertainment, like some of the things I've enjoyed most over the years, just because they're great, um, do make you question things about life and do have a point to them, um, so I'm just like, yeah, entertainment all the way really, and I don't like, I really don't like the kind of not to use the word snobbishness, that's quite a loaded word, but there is a kind of, especially like in the theater. But the same is true of books. If you're not writing those kind of like yeah, high art ones, the ones that are the books that are going to change the world, you get looked down upon a little bit.

Speaker 1: 10:17

You know, if you're working on a jukebox musical, perhaps that's not the same as working on, you know, a brand new musical. I'm just like how dare you? Because people enjoy these things. People love going to watch Mamma Mia every night, or they love going to watch. You know, any number of musicals like Starlight Express. It doesn't have any real emotional content to it, but it's bombastic and fun and I'm just like that's really important for us as for our morale, our mental health. Like these are really important for us. As for our morale, our mental health, these are really important things and it's like I said, you can go and watch something that's a bit depressing, and sometimes I do like to do that, but it's just like, yeah, you can't. There's this whole range of stuff out there that everyone can engage in.

Speaker 2: 11:00

Yeah, I think that's why I don't like the term guilty pleasures. I don't feel like anything should be anything. That's why I don't like the term um, guilty pleasures. I don't feel like anything should be anything that's pleasurable. It shouldn't be have guilt attached to it, like I will happily admit that I spent the last few days watching love rats on Netflix. It's about these people getting involved in and actually it's not even a laughing matter really, but getting involved in um, like romance scams or just betrayal in their relationships, and most people some people look at that thinking why are you watching that? It's like adding nothing to your life. You're not learning anything. But then was I entertained far too much that we were talking about it in the group chat?

Speaker 1: 11:44

but it's a lot like sometimes in like in those reality shows or like things like that you know, and it's sort of like you think of it as, like you know, cheap, cheerful entertainment. But there's so much human nature in those like I love. There's a program called dress to impress. I don't know if you've ever heard of it, but it's like some like boys have to go out and buy clothes for a girl that they're going to take on a date. It's like the weirdest, stupidest program and it's generally chaos. They don't know what they're doing and, if anything, the girls the other way around. When the girls are buying for the boys, they're even worse sometimes, because now girls are like, oh, we know how to dress men, we're like, no, no, no, it's just like. It's just like. It's out and out ridiculous.

Speaker 1: 12:26

But all these programs like they have human nature in these programs, like there's something in them that you're just like you're drawn to people, aren't you? And they're just people being completely honest and open. And there's not, you know, a front up which I don't think you know, especially in reality TV or whatever. You can't keep that front up forever. You have to be completely honest with the audience and the camera or whatever. You can't. You can't fake something 24 7, you know. So, um, yeah, I think they can be really, really revealing, and it's yeah, it's like that's why they're so addictive, isn't it?

Speaker 2: 13:01

it's so addictive. And the thing is I was just thinking that's what inspired me to my very first book that I self-published, the sisters. Part of the inspiration for one of the characters was more like the main character. It came from watching Real Housewives of Atlanta. I was watching it. Then I realized one of the characters. I was like you've got no money, like you're acting as if you have money. You know you're acting as if you have money. You know you're trying to build this house and you're walking around to design the bags, but you actually have no money. You're probably renting the bags and renting the designer clothes. And it was that realisation you see someone for who they really are and then that it just gave birth to this character.

Speaker 1: 13:47

And I thought, oh, I can create a story around that character. That's so good. But yeah, inspiration comes from you know, anywhere. You said at the beginning, like you know, if you draw an inspiration from your job and it's like, yeah, you see stuff all the time at work, that kind of triggers something, you're just like, oh, that was a ridiculous thing. Someone just said gonna store that away, you know, for a later use. And obviously I'm not. You know, I'm not just copying people from real life and putting them in a book, but you know there's some character traits in there from people that you know I don't think they'd recognize, but you know, I know where they've come from, squishing them all together into these characters. So, yeah, it's kind of. It's interesting, you know, people watching wherever it is. If it's in real life, if you sit in a cafe watching people go past in the street, if you're seeing it on the telly like it's all, it's all just the same and, like I said, like kind of addictive, isn't it?

Speaker 2: 14:36

it is. It is um, I was gonna say I've been up before. If I use my clients like clients have people I've represented in the past to inspire characters and I said I don't use like the whole person. But I always said, describe myself just and I think most writers are you're a magpie, so you'll pick the nice, shiny bit, the interesting bit, the unique bit. That is something they might've said, or even sometimes just be like a body movement and it just sticks with you and you thought, oh, I'm gonna use that yeah, definitely, definitely.

Speaker 1: 15:09

I just yeah. It's like life is just inspirational anyway and I, you know, I'm a theatre geek. I'm a bit of a theatre history geek. So again, like working in these old buildings, um, because my books are set in the 1930s, it's very easy to kind of go into them and things haven't changed in them at all. Things are very, very similar behind the scenes in a theater. So you kind of look around and it's very easy to imagine what it would be like there. You know nearly 100 years ago, what it would be like there. You know nearly a hundred years ago.

Speaker 1: 15:44

And again, you're borrowing all of those things you see and putting them, you know, not just into your characters but into the locations as well. And I think when you're able to do that, stuff comes to life in such a real way. Like I think if you try and imagine a character from scratch or a location from scratch, you can do it, but it doesn't always, I don't know. Real life is weird, like you know. There's weird nooks and crannies in a building, isn't it? And it's like, and there's weird nooks and crannies in people, and if you're not capturing that and putting it into your books, it's like you're not. You know that's when people and locations turn into sets and cardboard cutouts.

Speaker 1: 16:27

They're not quite. They're almost real, but you can. You can just tell there's a bit of authenticity missing to it.

Speaker 2: 16:34

You just need that little spark yeah, you know, when you're talking about the theatre, it reminds me of the courtroom, because you can go into the courtroom and let's be like the old, like the old buildings. So if I talk about in a London magistrate's court, the Royal Courts of Justice, you can walk in and you can imagine how it would have been like in the early 20th century. And nothing has really changed, even and I'm saying that the performative nature of doing a trial in the crown court. That hasn't changed either. And even yesterday I was looking up a piece of law for the book I'm working on. So I've got to pick up our massive legal practice books. I'll show you how big it is. The listeners can't um see. Look how big that is oh my gosh.

Speaker 2: 17:26

Yeah, so I'm going through that and there's a piece of law and it's like this is 1836. You know, that's the law, that's the date the law was passed and they're still referring to it now. Yeah, it's just funny how the theatre and the courtroom has that similarity in terms of time yeah, definitely like.

Speaker 1: 17:51

Yeah, I mean that's a good murder weapon. I'm like, oh what?

Speaker 2: 17:54

can I do I?

Speaker 1: 17:55

kill someone. That book, so good, um, but yeah, I, just all of those things I that's what I kind of like about history, because it goes really that sounds so stupid. It goes really far back, but it does. And there's kind of like. I don't know if people you know, I've never been in the court, luckily, or been arrested for anything but sometimes I do wonder, like, are people comforted by that tradition? Like, even though it's weird and it looks a a bit funny and people are in wigs and gowns, and but is that, I wonder, is that comforting to people that, um, I've never been in that situation before. It's like this has been going on for hundreds and hundreds of years. Um, it's the same process. It's like, and I don't you know, has it worked in the past? Maybe not. People have, you know, there've been mistrials or whatever. People have been wrongly convicted, but I don't know. I sometimes think with tradition, even if it is just symbolic, is that a comfort?

Speaker 2: 18:53

sometimes I think there's a security. No, but I do think there's a security in it, but not only for the people going through the court process, for the defendants and witnesses, but also for lawyers, especially when it comes to, I say, being in the Crown courts. Whether you're a barrister or, as I am, solicitor, advocate, and you're wearing the gown and the collar and the wig, there's a security in putting on that armour. So there's a safety there. And then I think you're then fully aware that this is your role, this is what you're doing, this is your part in this, and I say play, but this is your part in the play and there are stages to it and you know, know, we'll all follow, follow through that stage, we'll go along that path and it does. You can't deviate from it. So I think there's safety in there because the rules, the regulations are in it are kind of they're fixed in the point and yeah, they're fixed no, I like that, it's all good.

Speaker 1: 19:55

It's just like, yeah, when you go out, yeah, I've never really thought of them as theaters before, but courtrooms sort of are, and I always think I mean, we were talking about this at work the other day because there's been all these new like true crime things on the tv. But I'm just like sometimes these court cases come down to who is the best storyteller. Do you know what I mean? Especially when there's not a lot of evidence and it's kind of a bit circumstantial. It's like if one lawyer is better at spinning a tale out of these facts than the other one, they've won. It doesn't matter if it's true or not. In a way, it's kind of quite weird, isn't it? I?

Speaker 2: 20:35

should take issue with that. It doesn't matter if it's kind of it's kind of quite weird, isn't it? But it's like I should. I should take, I should take issue with that. Doesn't matter if it's true or not it's tough, isn't it?

Speaker 2: 20:46

but I always tell the baby lawyers when I'm teaching them, I always say to them look, jurors watch too much tv. So everything they know about what takes in the court, what takes place in the courtroom and how a trial plays out, it's based on what they've seen on TV and they're looking for drama. And sometimes you have no drama to give them, it's just I'm asking the questions, I'm putting the case to them, I'm going to challenge the witness and then we're moving on to the next one. But I always say, when it comes to your closing speech, that is when you tell a story and there has to be be, just like our writing.

Speaker 2: 21:18

It has to be a beginning, middle and end. You have to put the facts in there, you have to back it up. But you need to show the juror the way home and you're showing them the way home to your conclusion and you want them to follow you and stick with you. I think it's the same thing you do as a writer with your readers I'm showing you the way home and I'm giving you little clues along the way, but I need you to stick with me because it's going to be worth it in the end, because you've got to get to the end and be like, oh yeah, you're right see, now it all makes sense why so many lawyers or whatever end up as authors.

Speaker 1: 21:48

Because I mean yeah, there you go there you go, jamie.

Speaker 2: 21:53

When did you know that you could write, and I mean tell a story?

Speaker 1: 21:58

hmm, interesting, I guess I mean when I was at college. So I did a BTEC in performing arts. As you can tell, excellent performer, um, no, not really, uh, but yeah, I did a BTEC in performing arts. So that's when you're like what, 17, 18, it 18? It's like eight years, and at that point I knew that I liked inventing stuff.

Speaker 1: 22:23

Like whenever we were doing it was time to do like some improvised, devised work or whatever, I'd often be the one saying we should do this, like I'd be the one kind of leading it and saying how about you do this in a kind of I always call it realistic imagination? I've met so many quote unquote creative people who come up with wild ideas that just spin off into anything and just like right, but how does this, how can we do this in the real world? You know what I mean. I'm just like how does this turn into something that's entertaining or interesting? I think I've already, I've always had a kind of, yeah, like realistic, imagine it or pragmatic imagination. Sometimes I call it um, and then I ended up writing a few little scenes for people that we performed and then at the end of uh, at the end of the second year, quite ambitiously. I wrote a full-length musical with songs like it was two hours long.

Speaker 1: 23:19

It was like a proper, and I think that that was like my first ever kind of proper writing thing and I don't know how I did it, because it's ridiculous that I just sat down and did an entire thing. Like I don't know how I did it. I sort of I have a memory that I sort of did most of it in an afternoon as well. So I was like I don't know how I did it. I sort of I have a memory that I sort of did most of it in an afternoon as well. So I was like I don't know how I generated all this material, um, but I think, yeah, that was my first experience of kind of putting together not just a little scene but something that has to have a storyline that goes through it and characters and a beginning, a middle and like something to end at one on a cliffhanger and then end the show in, like you know, a happy, uplifting way. Um, and then ever since then, I never written another musical again, or I've never had. I mean, sometimes I'm like, oh, it would be quite nice to write a play, but they're incredibly challenging to do plays, I think, because you've got nothing you know in a book, you can resort to some scene description or you can back up your characters, um, with a bit of you know business in the text, but on a play, you've literally got nothing but dialogue to communicate your character. So you've got to be really, really good at creating character, um, if you're going to do a play. But yeah, and then I sort of ended up not really doing much for years and years and years.

Speaker 1: 24:40

But the whole time in the back of my mind I always wanted to write a book one day, a murder mystery one day, because I love murder mysteries, um, and yeah, it took so much time before I actually got around to doing that, which I sort of regret a bit. I wish I'd started writing earlier, in a way and I don't know that I would have got to writing a book any quicker um, but sort of, I think it would have been good to have the practice of writing, because that's what I'm really bad at now, like the technical getting down, getting it done. I'm awful at that. And if I've had, you know, if I had another 10 years more practice doing that, maybe I mean but I talk to other authors, I don't at that and if I've had, you know if I had another 10 years more practice doing that.

Speaker 1: 25:18

Maybe I mean but I talk to other authors. I don't know that it helps them, but maybe I'd be able to knuckle down and do it a bit better if I'd had more practice at doing it over the years. But like I said, I don't know that it would have necessarily produced a book any earlier because I sort of lacked the life experience to write a book before I got to. You know the age I am now.

Speaker 2: 25:42

I don't even think it's necessarily about producing the book, as you said. It's about getting that experience in, because I think I would struggle. If I'm looking back at all the conversations I've had on this podcast, I think I would struggle to find someone who wrote their first, like literally wrote their first book and had that first book, submit it to an agent or whatever route they took, whether it was self-published or additionally published. I would struggle to find someone who was able to produce a book with their at their first go. I think everyone, myself included, have got books that will never see the light of day, but what it did, what it did, it got them into that.

Speaker 2: 26:23

I might even say the routine, the rhythm, learning the rhythm of writing and then learning with each book, each short story, what not even necessarily what it means to tell a good story, but also your ability to create characters and record. Like earlier, before we started, like I did a post on Fred, saying I'm being very cold at the moment and I'm killing my darlings and it's like it's working on enough projects to get in a place where you can kill your darlings and I've got no emotions about I'm like no, you need to go, you need to go. I feel like you know doing whether you've written four books before you actually publish your same quotes.

Speaker 1: 27:03

Your first book it's about learning and working out what works for you yeah, I thought I was being very, very clever because I was like look, I know that everyone's first book they write is rubbish. So I literally set out. I was like, right, I'm going to write a rubbish book and I can't really remember what it was about. I mean, I never finished it. I think it was like about sort of like a gay James Bond. Because I was like, look, the hardest things to write are action scenes and sex scenes. So like a James Bond type thing has both of those. And I was like, oh my god, you realize how ridiculous james bond is.

Speaker 1: 27:41

As soon as you start writing about, I was like, oh my god. And I was like, you know, okay, generalizing a bit, like gay people are generally a bit promiscuous, aren't they? And I was just like, even that didn't. When you were sort of writing it down, it's like, oh, he didn't walk in and says this comment, sort of like someone. I was just like, no, that's just weird, it just doesn't, it doesn't work, does it?

Speaker 1: 28:02

But yeah, I thought it'd be really fun, but it didn't go anywhere because it wasn't a story I was passionate about telling. You know, I knew it was going to be a bit of rubbish, so it was only when you know you actually do have a story, which is the, which is what death on the pier was, which had kind of been bubbling away for ages, and it was like I really know what this is, I really know I can do this. Um, it was only at that point that I could complete a book, really, um, so yeah, so yeah, don't try and write a rubbish book first time out, just to get it out the way.

Speaker 1: 28:40

I thought I was tricking everyone. I was like tricking myself. I was like, yeah, get the rubbish book out the way, then write a brilliant one. Yeah, it didn't.

Speaker 2: 28:46

Didn't work like that no, you just have to just write a story, write the story that you want to tell and then you just take it from there. Was there anyone when you're younger I'm always interested in you know writers as kids and teenagers. Was there anyone in your youth who recognized your talent, that you could write?

Speaker 1: 29:06

it's what's weird is I never. I'm not one of those writers. I often, you know, when I listen to podcasts, I see interviews, it's like right, I was like, yeah, since the age of seven, I was reading, I was writing, I was getting stuff down. I didn't do any of that, like I didn't. I really didn't come to it too much as in writing down stories, even little things, I didn't come to that until much, much later in life. But I think there always have been people that you know, obviously. You know I'm a theatre-type person. So it was drama teachers and people like that that always recognized that I had a little bit of talent, certainly like the backstage stuff and the technical stuff, and would always encourage me to do those things at school and I'm just like or at college, and they always allowed the space like, like I said, at college, there was the space allowed for me to do my things and create them, as opposed to, you know, that could quite easily just be squashed down. It's like, no, no, we're not going to write a musical, we're going to do this play or whatever we're going to do this, don't be stupid. It was really nice to be allowed that space and that freedom to actually experiment.

Speaker 1: 30:20

Even it's not necessarily you know writing, but storytelling, like we said, it's like all of we all love to tell stories, no matter what form it is. You know, and the theater is probably the oldest form of storytelling but even you know, when you go back to work on a Monday and you're chatting to everyone, it's like what did you do this weekend? If you're not good at telling that story, no one cares what you did tonight. You know. I mean, like I think being able to tell stories is such an important part of just life in general. It's not just something that authors or writers do, even though we do that in the form of, you know, books and text. Um, I think storytelling is such a key part of just, you know, being alive and you know to be sound very um, I can't think of the word, but you know very high and mighty about it.

Speaker 2: 31:10

Well, it goes back to you know, when you're in school and you come back from especially often you come back from the summer holidays and normally not in those primary school years and you come back from your summer holidays and the teacher will say, okay, I need you to write your story about what you did in the summer holidays. And you have to go back and think well, you ain't done nothing, you didn't go on holiday, just ran out of your friends every day for six weeks, annoyed your parents and that was it. But even at that young age, you're forced to think of your life in terms of how can I interpret this and turn this into a story and how, because, and also how can I keep you entertained with my story also?

Speaker 1: 31:52

I'm so jealous family sorry no, I don't know.

Speaker 1: 31:56

Actually, I don't think I do like um, I don't really know where all of this stuff came from, but I'm so, I'm so jealous of people that can spin a tale. There's like a few people that I've come across just over the years and some of them, just off the cuff, can just talk in like a really gripping. You're hanging off every word. I'm just like you're just coming up with that instantly and I'm just like you know, even as an author, it's like you end up redrafting and you know, I wish I was able to do that in real life. You can go back and correct and make it the very best it can be, but some people have this impossible talent where they just start talking and it's amazing. I'm just like, oh, I'm so jealous of those people.

Speaker 2: 32:41

I think you can see in family members as well. I think that's that's always your first um experience, experience of it. There will always be someone in your family who is the storyteller and you just think what? And sometimes the story I have a cousin like this the story it can be, so it's so far fetched, but you will fall for every single line of it and you're thinking there's no way this happened to you. There is no way. But he's got everybody just gripped in this ridiculous, crazy story.

Speaker 1: 33:14

No, it's good, isn't it?

Speaker 1: 33:15

Oh yeah, maybe just more interesting things need to happen to me. That's what needs to happen. We never recognize. I just like there's a bit, um, there's something in that where it's just like we often don't recognize the interesting things that happen to us. I think maybe that's what you know.

Speaker 1: 33:31

The people that can spin those good stories are sort of able to look at it from you know a vantage point, from somewhere else and going I know that was because we're all quite shy and retiring.

Speaker 1: 33:40

It's like we don't think we're important or interesting, not to say that these people think they're self-important or anything like that, but it's like they're able to say, hold on, this is something interesting that I would love to share with you, um, which you know I don't think.

Speaker 1: 33:54

We always think, because it's like I have what I think is quite a boring job because I've been doing it forever, but then I'll bring someone backstage, I'll come and have a look around and they're completely blown away by something that's so completely pedestrian to me in a weird way, and I'm always like, oh, I never have you know, I don't have any facts about the show to tell you I don't have any interesting stuff and I often don't need to because they're just so interested in just anything. Um, it's like I often show around school groups, whatever, and I was like I don't have anything interesting to tell you, but they're just like, oh, what's that? And I'm just like, oh yeah, it's a board. And like, oh, my god, amazing. Like um, I just think sometimes, yeah, we don't recognize the interesting things about our own lives sometimes until someone else comes and, you know, takes a little look.

Speaker 2: 34:43

No, it's true, Because same thing. If I look back at my own work, I don't think there's anything exciting about what I do going to court representing people but then I can probably sit and let it happen. I've had, um, I say kids they're normally 15, 16 year olds come and do work experience, because you can't go into a courtroom until you're over the age of 14.

Speaker 2: 35:06

So they're normally at that work. Yeah, so they're at that work experience age and I'm thinking they're going to be so bored. They're going to be so bored, but no, they're absolutely fascinating because in a sense it's the Wizard of Oz. They're seeing what goes on behind the curtains.

Speaker 2: 35:20

You know, even if they go into the robing room at court and they're like, oh, this is where the bar is, it's innocuous, this is where we get changed, this is where we put on our robes. But they're seeing all of that and it's they're going behind the curtains of it all. So it's not. You know, it's every day to us. But to someone else they're like wow, I'll be fascinated about what goes on backstage in a theater. It's like well, how do you create those sets? How did they do warhorse?

Speaker 1: 35:45

and you'll think it's just a horse, it's a couple of men in the horse but it's quite funny because I mean, some people that work in the, some actors that work in the theater, have no idea how stuff works. You know, I've chatted to a few people before and they were just like, oh, is that how it works? I was like, have you not been curious about this like your entire career? Have you not been wondering how this bit of scenery has been flying in and out? And they were like no, it's never really occurred to me. Um, because some of it's quite boring.

Speaker 1: 36:12

Sometimes it is just a person pulling a rope. You know, and I said that's what I mean about theatre not really changing, even though my job, which is like automation, it's all the motorised set and lots of stuff these days is kind of motorised and computer controlled. But even, you know, on multi-million pound West End shows that's starting this year, there'll be a lot of it that is someone pushing on a stick to push something on stage or pull it back off again, or it pushing on a stick to push something on stage or pull it back off again, or it'll be someone pulling on a rope to make it go in and out. You know, and that's been going on for well hundreds of thousands of years probably, you know.

Speaker 2: 36:47

So it's um yeah, it's quite, it's quite bizarre. It's funny. You're literally sitting there reducing like a placement of a prop, someone, someone pushing it with a stick, pushing it back out again.

Speaker 1: 36:59

Well, it was like in the first book, in Death of the Pier, there was something you know the windows blow open in a storm or something, and it's just someone pushing it with the end of a broomstick and it's just like it's all these things that you know. That's often how these things are done.

Speaker 1: 37:14

It's like or it's whenever you see things you know, even those really highly polished like real estate videos, when the doors open as if by magic and the camera goes through, it's just like it's just two people opening the doors and it's just like, but it somehow adds up to something more than that. And especially, you know, in a theater, when you're caught up in when all of this stuff comes together and works, it's like it really does tell a story in a way and you're really caught up with that. It's like you're not thinking that behind this set or offstage, there's just, you know, a corridor. There's actually. You buy into the fact that when that character leaves and goes through that door, there is something through there.

Speaker 1: 37:58

Um, and it's just, yeah, you're building this whole illusion for an audience every night and they always, they always buy into it. They're always just like oh, they're probably going off to have you know, to have a cup of tea now, we'll see him again in 15 minutes. It's like you, you don't think that you really buy into what's going on on the stage. So, yeah, it's always. I mean, it's ridiculously fun to be a part of all of that, I think.

Speaker 2: 38:23

Listeners, it's time for a very short break. If you're enjoying this conversation with Nadine Matheson and want to help keep the podcast going, why not buy me a cup of coffee? Your support goes such a long way in keeping these conversations flowing. Just check out the link in the show notes. You know, when you started writing your books, you know and I'm saying don't take offense when I say take it seriously but you know you're fully invested in writing these books. Was it any surprise to you? Or was it a surprise to you how one, how isolating it can be in that initial process of writing the book, but then also how collaborative it can be when it comes to putting that book out there?

Speaker 1: 39:12

I yeah, it's okay, like I'm quite, you know, an introvert anyway. It's the reason why I work backstage. I don't need you know, if anything I find too much you know too much interaction with all those people watching you. That's far too overwhelming for me. I much, I'm too much, you know too much interaction with all those people watching you. That's far too overwhelming for me. I much. I'm very much happy just tapping away on my little keyboard in the dark somewhere. Um, but I really do enjoy the collaborative part of it because I think I think you need that Like there's nothing.

Speaker 1: 39:46

I know there's some authors out there that think the first draft they turn out is the best thing ever and it's like the word of God or whatever. No one can touch this, they shouldn't change it. It's you know what I mean, that sort of thing. But I'm just like I am so happy, you know it's not in bad, that's that sort it's not in bad sort of embarrassment hunt. But like sending it off to someone to look at it, to have an editor, like go through it and copy, edit it and line edit it, and all that stuff. I was like I'm always really nervous sending it off because what if they just think it's ridiculous. Like what if they get this text and just laugh it and go what is this crap? Do you know what I mean? That really worries me. But once it's gone and it's out there and suddenly you're working on a thing together to make it better.

Speaker 1: 40:30

It's so important, um, to have that collaboration and, like I said, comparing it to working in the theaters like I've seen it for years, like the collaboration between director and actor and like all these things, it's like you've got to shape something into again, into a piece of entertainment, and as an actor, you can come up with a small piece that is brilliant. You know, like on its own that's fantastic, but it doesn't work as part of the larger show or the larger scene. And I think the same is true with books and all these things. It's like you can write a beautiful passage. You know it's like, yeah, but this doesn't fit in with the tone of anything else you've done. So having that, having an external eye and really being able to collaborate with those people, really does make it kind of polishes this book up into something that is much better than I could do by myself.

Speaker 1: 41:29

And yeah, I just don't believe that any author really. I mean, maybe you know there's some geniuses out there, but it's like I don't think you can get to a finished product by yourself. I mean, I certainly can't. I don't know anything about grammar still I'm terrible at spelling and just like I love actually the last, but she was like there's so many typos in this. She's like I thought you were testing me and I was like oh no, so bad.

Speaker 1: 41:53

But I'm just like yeah to to bring these things together into that final product, and I think that's one of the things that, um, yeah, I don't think a lot of people realize about getting a book made and getting a book done is you're not just an author struggling by yourself. I mean, you are at the beginning, yeah, but that whole kind of path to publication you're joined by loads of people. It's like, you know, it's like a boots advert where one person walks down the road and another person joins them and finally there's like a hundred people running down the road. It's like that's what it is, yeah, like I mean maybe not 100 for me, but maybe five, but do you know what I mean?

Speaker 1: 42:31

And then suddenly you get the book bloggers involved and they're like your team and your gang that are like helping you go towards the final, you know release date for your book. And it's just all these people all the way along are all there to support you and make your book the very best it can be. And it's just yeah, it's so I mean, it's so nice and it's so I mean I know sometimes I'm paying these people, but it's still a real privilege for them to be involved in it. I think for me it's a privilege to have those people you know making this book really good, hopefully it's always a surprise for me, but it's always like a good surprise but also a shock.

Speaker 2: 43:12

We're like, oh my god, when you, when I look at the fate of the first draft of my book and this isn't and I'm not talking about the first draft that goes to my editor, I mean that very first draft that I write, which is, I say it's a mess is an understatement, it's a, it's a, there's a story there. I said characters have changed names or I've just put a plot in at the last minute, but for all, something's coming to my head. But to see you go from that really messy very think at it first draft to the final book, and you're like, oh my God, and the people who have been involved to get it from that mess to that final product that's on the shelf. I'm always amazed because I'm looking at my work in progress now that I'm only a few chapters away from finishing it and it will go to my editor finally.

Speaker 2: 44:08

She'll be very pleased, it will finally go to her, but even so, but that version that I'm sending, that is my third draft and I'm still going back and I'm like, oh my god, oh my god, like I know she'll get rid of this. But yeah, it's all. It's a nice surprise, it's a good surprise. But also I'm just like the amount of times is there a word that you use that you just keep on using, like my one is well and just, and at the moment it's hold on. Everyone's saying hold on and get rid of all the hold-ons and justs and welts.

Speaker 1: 44:47

What happens in my book is constantly. I did a reading the other day at like a noir at the bar and I was just like, and it had it in it. My characters constantly blink while their eyes adjust to a changing light. They've stepped outside and they're like, oh, or they've just opened the door, and I think it happens like three or four times in death on the pier and it definitely happens. I try, not, it definitely happens more than once in murder at the matinee too. I'm just like because it's just, it's like a really handy little passage, because it's like that thing when you meet someone and there's a little gap before everything starts and everyone's like it's such a useful little thing to say right here we are, everyone's in place, and there's just a bit of before everyone starts going and talking. There's just a moment of pause while everyone blinks and their lights adjust to the sun or whatever. But it's just like yeah, I love, yeah, it's it's tough, isn't it?

Speaker 1: 45:40

and I'm just like sometimes you need that again, that external eye, to be like. You say these things all the time and I don't. I just don't have. I've got a terrible memory, so I will read a paragraph and then the next paragraph I'll say exactly the same thing and I'm just like I really need an external eye because I forget stuff instantly. There's no way I could keep track of all this stuff throughout a book. And, like proof read, like my proofread on this book was incredible, like you know, she worked out all the timelines, she worked out everything. Every time a place was mentioned, she checked, I referred to it in the set. And I'm just like I don't know how these people do it. I just don't have, I just don't have that skill and I'm just like, yeah, I'm just like I'm so thankful for them because otherwise this book would be awful, like it would be really bad. Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 2: 46:30

and I'm just like, yeah, god's gift. That's the way I feel about coffee editors, because I'm like I completely forgot that I changed someone's eye color. But they're like, why is this person's eye color on page 14 blue? And now you're saying that they're green? Like even going through um working on my book now and I forgot, I changed one of the characters. I've changed his names three times. So I'm going through it and I'm like, literally, I was like what, who's John? I was like, oh no, I changed his name.

Speaker 1: 46:58

He's not John, I've got to change it the the most depressing thing because it was a different proofread I had for this book and she went back for the first book to kind of to make sure that it would be consistent between the two books. And she found in the first book that I it's only a spelling mistake here and there, but one of the characters surnames is spelt two different ways, not throughout the book, I think it's like one or two mentions. I was just like, oh my god, how did we miss that? But like no one's ever noticed like this. And now I'm going to scour the book now and find it, but I'm just like no one's.

Speaker 1: 47:35

You know we have quite a high tolerance for this sort of stuff, um, just as readers, because again, we're reading it for entertainment, like we're not going through and analyzing all these things. But obviously it's good that those things are done because you know, some people do, some people do read books to find all the mistakes. But even actually this book, I was like the first thing I did when I got the finished copies was open it up and this is the most minor thing in the world. But a speech mark was the wrong way around. You know how they're like in directions.

Speaker 1: 48:05

I was just like it was the first thing I saw. I was like, right, okay, we're gonna close that and I'll never, I'll never be able to find it again because I don't know where it was. But I'm just like, yeah, I just like we've got to be happy with mistakes sometimes. I think I'm just like you know 95% of the way there is done as far as I'm concerned because, otherwise, it's just one more stress in life that I don't need.

Speaker 1: 48:27

Do you know what I mean? I'm just like life's so stressful anyway and if I constantly aim for perfection all the time, I'm just like I'm. No, I'm always going to be. Yeah, I'm just like you know. You can do 99% of the things right if you do. If you do one percent of the things wrong, it feels like a failure, but it's not. You've done 99% of the things right, like uh, like a failure, but it's not. You've done 99 of the things right, like uh, it's just yeah, it's incredibly, yeah, incredibly tough once you, your book was published for the first one death at the pier.

Speaker 2: 48:57

But even leading up to that, what has surprised you most about the publishing industry? Because it's so different, I think, from anything that anyone could have been involved in before.

Speaker 1: 49:10

I was, because it's just me. You know, I don't have a publisher, I don't have an agent, it's just me. Um, I went in with really realistic expectations, by which I mean zero expectations whatsoever.

Speaker 1: 49:21

I had no idea what I was going to expect and I I was like I think that's quite. You know it sounds quite negative, but I think that was a really good place to start from Because I think I said at the beginning, my experience has been overwhelmingly positive and every agent that I met, or every person in the industry that I've met, any conversation I've had, has always been really enthusiastic and even getting author quotes for the books. You know I wasn't expecting any authors to give me quotes, certainly for the first one, and people did, and especially the second one. Actually, loads of people, you know I very politely wrote to them, was like hello, can I send you a copy of my book? And loads of people know I very politely wrote to them was like hello, can I send you a copy of my book? And loads of people you know, authors I look up to and admire, said yes, and I was just like this is so nice. And I was not. I really didn't expect that um at all, because they don't have to do that.

Speaker 1: 50:18

And I don't know if I'm doing something different to everyone else, because I do see a lot of people out there that are having, you know, not as happy experiences and they're just like are they being super demoralized? I don't know what it is. I was chatting to an author at Capital Crime and she was like, oh yeah, thank you for sending me your book. You wrote such a lovely email.

Speaker 1: 50:40

And I was just like I genuinely thought I did the bare minimum of politeness you know a lot of the stuff I do. I genuinely think I was like people are like, oh, my God, that's so nice. But I was just like I think this is the bare minimum. So I don't know what a lot of people are doing when they're emailing or getting in touch with people, like, are they just being demanding? I don't know what's going on with that. And, yeah, a lot of people you know, you see them saying, oh yeah, I'm feeling awful because no one's responded to me, all of this kind of stuff. And I'm just like, yeah, I don't know if I've done something different, but that's not been my experience, and I wish I could somehow help these other authors that aren't doing the same, that aren't having that positive experience, because it should be a joyful experience. All of this because otherwise, why are we? Why are?

Speaker 1: 51:31

we doing it like I'm not one of those tortured writers like, oh, I've got to get, I've got to drag this novel out of me, and maybe that's why I'm not super productive, because if I'm not, you know, if I'm not feeling it, I'm not going to do it like if I'm not enjoying it. I don't know why you do it. And there's still tough moments. There's still times when you've got to grind it out. There's still times when those like one star reviews come in and just like, oh, okay, whatever. Um, I just try not to take any of that too personally and I sort of slip into my. I've got two modes I've got like author mode and I've got like publisher mode.

Speaker 1: 52:10

Essentially, yeah and it's like when the stuff comes in I keep it away from author me because I'm just like I don't author me doesn't need to know that or respond to that, I'll just keep it in the kind of business side and having that real kind of separation I think has been really useful in ensuring that my author side of me has had a lovely positive experience. It's kind of yeah, I don't know if that makes sense, but um, no, no, it does, it does.

Speaker 2: 52:38

Do you think because I think about this, um, especially when I because my very first book I self-published. But do you think a lot of I say self-published authors are independent they underestimate in the beginning the amount of work it takes not to write the book. I've always said the writing the book is like the easiest straightforward bit, the bit that comes afterwards, the marketing and the getting it out there. Do you think they underestimate that a bit?

Speaker 1: 53:06

yeah, because I like I went in fully prepared. Really, I did everything I could in advance to be like right, what's this going to be like? And even then I've only managed to get you know these books. These two books were two years apart, nearly, um, because that's how much time it's taken up not only writing it, also the editing, the proofreading.

Speaker 1: 53:28

I was chatting to someone else the other day and she was like, well, you do quite a traditional, even as a self-published person or an indie author, whatever you want to call it. She was like, you've done quite a traditional publishing timeline. I was like, yeah, because you know what I think the traditional publishers might be onto, something here like this is how long it takes to produce a book of a certain quality and a certain type and all the marketing and all the stuff, um, in advance. And yeah, it took a lot more time than I thought it was going to because I did a bit of a weird route, because I could have, I could have gone through one of those self-publishing companies, um, but in the end I sort of decided to set up my own publishing imprint and I was like, oh, because that's sort of my personality, if I can go in all the way on something, I'll go all the way in. So I was like, let me go all the way in on this. So I've done this weird route and originally I was like, oh well, I'll set this up, um, do it all like quote, unquote properly. Because then maybe one day, if I wanted to start doing other authors books, helping them get published, I could do it through my imprint. How nice of me not realizing, of course, that I literally wouldn't have any time.

Speaker 1: 54:41

You know just that, by itself, being a publisher is a full-time job and I sometimes, you know, I sometimes we've all seen it online, the growths and authors going what is my publisher doing for me? They do nothing for me. I was like, do you realize how much work it takes just to get the book printed, for goodness sake? Like there's so much work and then getting into shops I, that is a full-time, nonstop job. It takes so much. And I'm just like, when people are like, oh, I'll just do it myself, I was just like I don't think you quite understand how much that really can take up of your time and how much additional work it is on top of being an author. And if you just like writing, don't do. It is what I keep. I tell people they're just like oh, I enjoy writing, maybe I'll just self-publish something. I'm just like no, because if you just want to write, you really need to find someone to publish for you, because it's a second. You know, it's a second full-time job really.

Speaker 2: 55:43

I've always said to people when they've spoken to me about self-publishing, and I've said it's not. If you think it's the easy option, it's not. It's not the easy option and it's not it. I think it can seem like it's the quick way to get your book published and get you know, be out there, and I suppose in a way it is. If you just write a book, I mean there's a thing you can just write something, upload it kdp and it's it's on amazon, you can just do that. But is it going to be the best thing that you can produce?

Speaker 1: 56:13

yeah, exactly like we were saying earlier, like if I'd done that at the beginning, like that would be crap, it'd be absolute rubbish. Um, and I'm not saying people's books are rubbish, like I'm sure you know they are of a certain standard, but it's. Yeah, I know, for me I was like just taking that first draft and going right, I'll just title it up and stick it online. Was not you know the route to go? And again, taking sort of the template and the guidance from traditional publishing companies and indie publishers and what they do and how they do stuff, I think really was the right thing for me because, again, they sort of know what they're onto, something you know, these are companies that sell million copy bestsellers. They know what they're doing to produce a good product. Whether or not you think they're too commercial or whatever, or not, um, they do know what they're doing.

Speaker 2: 57:08

Unfortunately, yeah, I, but I do think from when I self-published so I thought it was 2015 we're talking nearly 10 years ago. Now that there has been I don't know people are taking it more seriously. So there's been a big improvement in what's out there, in the sense that you can't like before, I'll say, 10 years ago, you'd look on your scroll for Amazon. That's what you're looking at, your scroll for Amazon. Look at the cover and be like, oh no, oh no, no, no, no, no, like you could have put some work into it. It just looks like you just did it on clip art. But now people just look. You know they are putting the actual work working because you have to take it seriously, because it's not the easy option at all yeah, and it is again like we were saying.

Speaker 1: 57:55

It's like it is a proper business now. In the same way that, if you know, I could take a woodwork well, not even a woodworking class, maybe I'd just knock up a bit of furniture I'll knock up a shabby table out of a pallet, like I can't take that to John Lewis and say, hello, can you stock my new table? They'd be like, um, no, like you know, and there is so much competition now as well with all this stuff, it's like you really have to produce really good books and really good products if you've got any hope of competing, um, with you know, these millions of books are on amazon now. There's so many. I mean, millions of traditionally published books are coming out all the time, aren't they? So, yeah, it's really.

Speaker 1: 58:39

It's a really tough position to be in. And again, I think, if you go in with unrealistic expectations, if you go in going, oh yeah, I'm going to be one. And again, I think, if you go in with unrealistic expectations, if you go in going, oh yeah, I'm going to be one of those people making six figures a year for my self-published books, you're completely so. You're setting yourself up for disappointment right from the beginning, um, whereas if you just go in with no expectations and just enjoy every sale that you make and every book that you publish, um, you're gonna be much happier, you're gonna enjoy it much more, you're gonna enjoy the process much more. I think you know it's like all these things. It's so easy to compare yourself to other people, isn't it? And you know, sometimes I do think they're not the people that you know you're trying to emulate or copy, aren't necessarily? They're putting the social media version of themselves out there. That might not be actually what is happening behind the scenes no, how do you feel about social media?

Speaker 2: 59:34

because then you said you're an introvert. Are you comfortable with that side of it?

Speaker 1: 59:39

I quite like it because I've got something to talk about, like we're saying, it's like I don't think I'm a very interesting person, I don't think you know my job's anything to write home about, like, um, but actually as an author, when you've got some books to talk about and there's some content to them, like I never want to be one of those people that's just shouting about my books. Um, I want to talk about what's behind them and all of those things. Um, I've quite enjoyed it and actually one of the most enjoyable things I found about social media is just interacting with other book bloggers, other authors, like sharing other people's work and actually really engaging in that whole community aspect of it, because otherwise you're just shouting into the void and no one's really paying attention. But if you actually interact, like properly with people, um, you do start to build up friendships or two-way relationships and people are like oh well, thank you for recommending my book, I'll recommend yours in return, all that kind of stuff.

Speaker 1: 1:00:43

Um, but if I didn't have a book to talk about, I don't think I'd be doing social media like, like I said, I'm not, I'm not interesting enough, like, and also I'm certainly not good looking enough to be posting naked selfies all the time or whatever people you know on Twitter. So I'm just like you know, I'm not holidaying around the world and all these sunny locations in my speedos like people do. So I don't, yeah, I don't know, but it's, yeah, it is really. I've really enjoyed that aspect of it in kind of a weird way, which I don't think like you said I'm I am a very introverted.

Speaker 1: 1:01:18

I don't really like talk about myself too much, but it's kind of easier to do, like even in situations like this or I've done a few Q&As here and there it's like when you've got a thing to talk about, it's kind of much easier, whereas just at a party I'm the quiet person standing in the corner. I can't do small talk, like not at all, but I can talk about my books for a little bit, absolutely fine well, your book is your anchor, isn't it?

Speaker 2: 1:01:45

it's security there and it's stable, so you can anchor yourself to it. So let's talk about your book. Let's talk about your second book. Would you like to tell the listeners of the conversation about murder at the matinee, which is book two in your series?

Speaker 1: 1:01:59

yeah, book number two. Well, yeah, bertie Carroll, who's my murder mystery playwright turned real life detective, is back. This time he's back in London. So the first book was set in Brighton and a murder occurred on stage in front of the audience during one of Bertie's plays. But this time the murder hasn't taken place yet, but it um threatened to take place on a kind of rival playwrights production.

Speaker 1: 1:02:28

So he kind of gets brought in as someone that's, you know, had a bit of experience with this in the past murders on plays and things um, and, yeah, luckily the murder doesn't actually take place during the show, but it does take place, um, a little bit later and he gets reunited, a little bit awkwardly, with his old school friend, who very conveniently happens to be a police detective, um, and they sort of team up to solve the murder, because when we left things in Brighton they, you know, something had been a little bit rekindled between them, but then there's been a period of about six months where they've not been talking again. So it's all a little bit awkward, um, when everyone gets back together. And actually in the second book it was really fun to kind of introduce Bertie to some other characters and he actually does a bit of investigating with some different people rather than just Hugh in this one. So it was really fun to play with a few different dynamics as he kind of looks around. So yeah, it was kind of fun and nice to come back into London with them and also recreate or bring back to life another theatre from the past which has been lost.

Speaker 1: 1:03:40

So in the first book, death on the Pier, I brought back to life the Palace Pier Theatre, which used to be on the pier in Brighton. Um, this time I get to bring back the Gaiety Theatre, which used to be at the end of the Strand. So that's one of the fun things about going back to the 1930s is I can bring back all these theatres that are kind of now lost to history. And, like I said, I'm a bit of a theatre history geek, so it's been really that aspect's been really fun for me to do right.

Speaker 2: 1:04:09

So before I go into your last set of questions, it's because people always ask this if you, if you're, if you're in any of your characters, so do you? Can you see any part of yourself in the characters that you create?

Speaker 1: 1:04:26

yeah, well, like I would like. I'm not really a failed playwright, but you know I like the idea of it. So the fact that Bertie just happens to also be a playwright, let's not look too closely at that. But I think, yeah, I think all of these characters have a bit of something about you in them. It's like you know, even when you see brilliant character actors that get into the role, there's always a bit of them in it, because you know they're the vehicle that it's going through.

Speaker 1: 1:04:56

Do you know? I mean, I think the same is true of act of writing. Sorry, because I think writing is the same as acting, except you know you're just performing on the page rather than to an audience. So it's like, yeah, there are all these little traits of things that go into these characters. I mean, I think they're all me in a way, but obviously they've got loads of additional invention on top. But I think in every single character, even the bad ones, I think there's probably a kernel of you, because it all comes from you. You're all imagining. You're imagining what would I be doing in this situation?

Speaker 2: 1:05:32

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:05:33

And that's what feeds into those characters. That's always the starting point, really, for any character. You've got to be able to put yourself in that position. Therefore, I think, yeah, there's always a little bit of you know kind of your decision making. Maybe, I don't know, there's always a little bit of something in those characters that's from you. But yeah, let's not look too much at the bad characters, because it's like, yeah, I'm sure everyone's got a bit of a murder in them, haven't they?

Speaker 2: 1:05:59

We've all got something. Most definitely, Even though I do like those moments when I'm writing a scene and my character does something and I'm like I would never do that and I can kind of take them all. I can take them all high ground a little bit.

Speaker 1: 1:06:12

Yeah, I would never do that.

Speaker 2: 1:06:14

But then it's an excitement in there because you're doing something that kind of goes against the grain of you, and what makes up.

Speaker 1: 1:06:19

Yeah, it's a little bit, a little bit naughty yeah it's a little bit naughty.

Speaker 2: 1:06:23

Okay, so we already know that you're an introvert. So, jamie, what piece of advice do you wish you'd been told earlier in your career?

Speaker 1: 1:06:34

I think, hmm, I mean, I wish, like I said earlier, I wish I'd started writing earlier. I think someone, if someone just told me, just start doing it, um, that would have been helpful, just because, I don't know, like I said, there's so many when it comes to writing. There's so many. It feels like there's a lot of rules and regulations and there isn't, um, it feels, you know, I've seen, when you read interviews with people, you read about their writing process, you're like, well, I don't do that. So am I really a writer? Um, and I just wish someone had been like, yeah, don't worry about all of that, just start doing it and you'll find your own way.

Speaker 2: 1:07:16

So I think that's, yeah, the piece of advice that I wish someone had said to me yeah, you kind of were, I think, not the worst thing, because you know it's how you learn. You know you look at others sometimes and practice and emulate and that then. But then through that you kind of work out what doesn't work for you like.

Speaker 2: 1:07:34

I know pantsing does not work for me. I've tried it and and I'm kind of envious that someone can sit there and just write a book without a plan of where to go. They just have a character, they have a story and they just sit at their computer and start. But I know that doesn't work for me, so I'm quite happy to leave that on the sidelines and just do what works for me. But I only realized that through trying to pants yeah, yeah, and there's so like.

Speaker 1: 1:08:03

There's so many you know, blogs and places that teach you and they say this is how to like. They're not like this is a way of writing or this is one technique you could use. They always, you know, they always come to the point. It's like this is how to write a book, or write your novel in 30 days, or all that kind of stuff, and it's just like yeah, I know it's a very subtle difference, but I just wish they were like this is one way you could do it. Maybe you could try something different.

Speaker 2: 1:08:28

And it's just like yeah, I think that would have probably got me along the path to writing my own book a lot sooner yeah, not feeling that this is the definitive, the one and only answer, and if you don't do it this way, then you'll never do it yeah, you see it, with marketing and stuff, don't you?

Speaker 1: 1:08:45

it's like you have to have a newsletter, you have to have this and three rules for placing adverts on facebook, all that kind of stuff, and I'm just like it's all. Yeah, it's all kind of you've got to take it all with a very, very large pinch of salt, I think yeah, I agree.

Speaker 2: 1:09:00

So what challenge or experience in your life shaped you the most?

Speaker 1: 1:09:05

um, well, I've I mean, I've worked on so many shows and started, you know, open so many shows, so I've been for a lot of technical rehearsals, a lot of fit ups, and they're all ridiculously challenging, and so I was like I've had more challenges than I need. Um, but I think probably one of the life lessons that I've learned very recently, actually maybe like the last 10 years is that you don't have to constantly be chasing the next biggest thing, um, because for a long time I went from you know what's the next big show, I can do what's the next, you know and I say this happen all the time with people's jobs. It was like I need to get the next promotion, I need to go up um for the next pay scale, all these things we're constantly taught. If you're not growing or going higher and higher and higher, you're not doing life right or something. Um, and I think in the last few years I've taken that realization on board. It's like you don't constantly have to do those things because actually, on my job at the moment, I'm the deputy, I'm not the head of department, which I wouldn't have done you, I would never accept that job years ago, but what it allows me to do is it allows me space to do all these things, the other things I want to do, like my writing, and that's important to me, rather than just living for the job and constantly trying to go up like that promotion scale, if that makes sense.

Speaker 1: 1:10:35

I mean, I've I've chatted to people before that are like, um, you know, they've got a choice between two jobs. They're like what will look better on my CV? I was like who gives a shit about your CV? Like which job do you think you'll enjoy doing more? But I was just so many people are driven by that and I was just like, yeah, I've only come to that realization in the last few years. So I was like, yeah, that's not necessarily one experience that shaped me, but it's like a life lesson, that kind of shapes.

Speaker 1: 1:11:01

For the last few years, that's kind of shaped every decision I've ever made. Is like, am I doing this just because it's the next step along the path or am I doing this because it's something I want to do and I know I'm going to enjoy doing? And I was like that's an incredibly privileged place to be and to have those options. But at the same time I'm just like, yeah, that's, that's what's really driving my decisions in life right now. It's like what, how is this gonna? You know, is this gonna be the best thing for me, not what other people would think is the best thing?

Speaker 2: 1:11:34

but it's also, it's no different to recognizing that things can change for yourself, as in what you wanted 10 years ago and maybe your career aspirations 10 years ago. And if I think about myself, I remember there was a time when I, when I first qualified so we're talking, god, nearly 19 years ago now qualified as a solicitor and I remember thinking, right, I'm a newly qualified solicitor, um, I want to have my own firm and then maybe I might be a judge. So in my head, that was my trajectory of where I was going to go I'm going to have my own firm, maybe I might become a district judge, and. But then it got to a point. So maybe 10 years in, and I'm thinking I don't actually want these things anymore and I knew I wanted to write. But then sometimes you're trying to find a path to how can I become a writer and make this my job.

Speaker 2: 1:12:26

But it's just that whole reaching that point, reaching that crossroads, of recognizing actually the things you wanted 10 years ago. You're allowed to move away from that. You're allowed to change your mind and be comfortable with that. Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1: 1:12:38

I always think, yeah, I think that, with boyfriends apart, I was like the person I ended up marrying is not like the boyfriends I had when I was 18. But I'm just like stuff changes like that, doesn't it? And, like you said, as time goes on, being able again allowing yourself the freedom to stray from the path that you thought you'd planned, because otherwise there could be all these opportunities you might end up missing because you're like, you're stuck to your rigid path that you set out when you were younger and it's just like. No, you've got to give yourself a bit more freedom than that, I think yeah, definitely.

Speaker 2: 1:13:14

So if you could go back to when you were 25 years old and give yourself one piece of advice, what would it be?

Speaker 1: 1:13:20

oh gosh, I think. Well, I was gonna say chill out more, but I've always been very chilled out, so I don't know, I think, or, like I said I mentioned there, I just like to start writing straight away. But I think what we were just talking about then I was like, I think I wish I would have told my younger self to allow yourself, yeah, the freedom to stray from where you thought you were going to be, because it would have stopped, you know, and I think sometimes you've got to have those life experiences and learn for yourself. I probably wouldn't have listened to myself. Um, but, yeah, allow your space to deviate from where you think you should be heading or where you might have been heading.

Speaker 1: 1:14:06

Because, yeah, I don't think you can plan life out in the same way you can plan out a book. I mean, I say this this comes up here, this comes up in the second book actually and I'm just like don't write your own ending ahead of time. Don't think that you can treat real life like you can plotting a book. And maybe that's why we write, because we like the control and we're able to do whatever we want to do in the book. But, yeah, you've really got to go along and take, not each day as it comes, but you've really got to let yourself be guided by you in the moment, like I think.

Speaker 2: 1:14:42

So yeah, that was some terrible advice, but no, it's not because I was thinking about, you know, when people have five year plans, but could be a five year career plans or five year life plan, and starting back in I think it was like 2002, 2003,. I started writing these letters to myself.

Speaker 1: 1:15:04

Okay, nice.

Speaker 2: 1:15:05

To open in five years and it's no different to. They've got an app called I think it's Future Me app, where you write a letter to yourself and then you can set a date for that letter to be sent to you, to email to you. But what I've always found interesting is the stuff that I'd written down five years ago in terms of where I wanted my life to be, what I would be doing, adamant. This is what I want and this is what's going to happen. And when I've opened it, I'm like, oh, what on earth was I thinking? A lot of that was like seriously, nadine, seriously, this is what you wanted. But then there were some things that on there that have happened. You're like, oh, oh, I did get that thing that I wanted. I'm not even realizing that I'd actually achieved it yeah, that's so interesting, isn't it?

Speaker 1: 1:15:53

yeah, I wish I'd done it. I mean, actually I've just read, I wish I'd kept a diary more, because I've just read, uh, someone's diary from they're in the original cast of Sunset Boulevard back in the 90s and they've kept and some of the diaries really boring. It's like here's what I had for lunch this day, but it's got loads of the technical rehearsals and, like I said, I've been through so many technical rehearsals that have had ridiculous moments in them and I was like I've forgotten them all and I wish I'd written those down just for future reference. Do you know what I mean? And it's like we don't ever do any of that and I know it's like doing these letters to yourself in the future. It's like at least you have a marker of where you were um and what you did, what.

Speaker 1: 1:16:36

Because it's just like I have no idea looking back. Like I said, I've got a terrible memory. So, looking back over things I've done, I was like I have no idea if I've achieved what I plan to. You know, there's all that self-reflection maybe you can get tied up in it a bit too much but I'm just like I have no idea if I'm achieving what I set out to do, however many years ago, but I know I'm having a good time, so I think that's the most important thing, isn't it?

Speaker 2: 1:17:02

that is the most important thing, which is why I think the letters probably work, because there have been times when I've forgotten that the five years passed and then I found I'm like, oh, I should have opened this last year, two years ago, don't?

Speaker 1: 1:17:14

tell you, time goes far too quick. I mean it does so so quickly. Like I said, there's been two years between these books and that. Time flew, but I don't know where that went. I don't know why I haven't written six more books in that time, like all these other people seem to do. Oh, what's going on so?

Speaker 2: 1:17:28

what's your, what's your plan? What's coming up next for you?

Speaker 1: 1:17:33

well, I've got Bertie Carroll. Book number three is sort of in the works, um. But I've also decided I want to do a more modern day sort of domestic thriller, which is, it's super interesting for me. Um, I very nearly said it in the 90s for a while I was flitting backwards and forwards so I was like, oh, I do like the historical aspect of it and the 90s are historical now because they're coming back around.

Speaker 2: 1:18:02

No, it pains me. It pains me to say it because I was a lovely teenager living my best teenager life in the 90s. You're sitting there telling me about history and I'm like no, it's not historical.

Speaker 1: 1:18:16

But then I realised I can't really remember anything about the 90s. So it's probably going to be. It probably is going to be a modern day, but it's again. It's all these new, different challenges that I've not had before.

Speaker 1: 1:18:28

I was chatting to Graham Bartlett about, you know, phone tracking and AMPR and your cars and all these things like dealing for crime in the modern day is so hard, um, and because of that the crime isn't really the focus so much of this book. Um, but yeah, it's just kind of fun. It's kind of fun to try something different, um, because, like I said, the last few years have been set in the 1930s. So doing something in the modern day, uh, it's been really. Yeah, it's just exercising some different muscles, which is kind of fun, and it's still. It's still a bit connected to the entertainment industry. It's been really. Yeah, it's just exercising some different muscles, which is kind of fun, and it's still a bit connected to the entertainment industry. It's kind of set in the music industry, I reckon. So, yeah, it's going to be interesting to kind of play around with some new characters and we'll see. And then, who knows, it probably won't go anywhere and I'll go back to my nice, safe 1930s again.

Speaker 2: 1:19:24

Well, all that's left actually actually no, that's not all that's left is I need to ask you where can listeners of the conversation find you online?

Speaker 1: 1:19:30

Jamie West um, so listeners, hello, you can find me on the internet. I guess I'm Jamie West author, am I? Oh, my god, I can't remember. No, I am Jamie West author everywhere. I'm pretty much Instagram, tiktok, sometimes X and threads, and I do have a website that sort of isn't regularly updated, which is jamiewestauthorcouk. So, yeah, I'm all. Yeah, I've nailed the branding there, haven't I? I'm the same thing everywhere that sort of isn't regularly updated, which is jamiewestauthorcouk. So, yeah, I'm all over. Yeah, I've nailed the branding now, haven't I?

Speaker 2: 1:20:05

I'm the same thing everywhere you have nailed the branding. Jamie West is everywhere, and that just leaves me to say Jamie West. Thank you so much for being part of the conversation.

Speaker 1: 1:20:14

No worries. Thank you so much for having me on.

Speaker 2: 1:20:16

Thank you so much for listening to today's conversation with Nadine Matheson. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. Be sure to tune in every Tuesday for a brand new episode featuring more amazing guests. Don't forget to like, subscribe and leave a review. It really helps the podcast grow. You can buy me a cup of coffee or sign up on Patreon. The links are in the show notes and if you'd love to join the conversation as a guest, feel free to send an email to theconversation at nadinemaffersoncom. Thanks again for your support and I'll catch you next time.