Louise Minchin: Embracing Change and Crafting Thrillers

Louise Minchin, a familiar face from BBC Breakfast, takes us beyond the red sofa and into the crime fiction world with her debut novel, "Isolation Island." Our conversation unveils the transformation from journalism to thriller writing, sharing the emotional highs and the challenges of stepping into an entirely new career path. Louise candidly discusses the courage it took to transition from non-fiction to fiction, and how her experiences on "I'm a Celebrity" inspired her storytelling journey.

Listeners will gain insight into the art of crafting thrillers as Louise contrasts her previous work in journalism with the immersive narratives of her new book. We explore the nuances of character development and how unexpected real-life events, like her experiences with storms, influenced the plot of "Isolation Island."

Isolation Island

TEN CELEBRITIES...
Arrive on a remote Scottish island
TWO WEEKS...
to win the prize of a lifetime
ONE DARK SECRET...
And the game turns deadly.

Ten celebrities have arrived to take part in a gruelling reality survival show: two weeks completely alone on a remote Scottish island, in the depths of winter. With some careers on the rise, and others whose star is fading, almost everyone has something to play for. But investigative journalist Lauren has one question - what does Hollywood megastar Nate Stirling have to gain by taking part?

With a production team that seems incapable of keeping them safe, a gathering storm and the unrelenting gaze of hidden cameras, the contestants are stretched to the limit as they try to outshine their fellow competitors and hide their darkest secrets.

But when a body is found, it's clear that the game has become a matter of life and death...
Follow Louise Minchin

Chapters

• 0:00 Transitioning Careers
• 3:31 Navigating the Writing World
• 7:29 Thriller Book Launch Excitement
• 14:26 Reality Show Revelation and Character Development
• 20:53 Inspiration and Creativity in Writing
• 29:13 The Art of Storytelling and Writing
• 40:24 Lessons From Triathlons for Publishing
• 46:27 Navigating Writing as a Thriller Author
• 51:46 Narrating Writing Stories With Visceral Impact
• 1:02:02 Writing Challenges, Life Lessons, and Fitness

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

I try not to kind of get lost in other people's amazing brilliance and think, oh gosh, why is my book not like that, or can it ever be like that, or whatever.

Speaker 2: 0:09

Hello and welcome to the Conversation with your host, nadine Matheson. As always, I hope that you're well and I hope that you've had a good week. Can you believe we're already in December? Yes, we're in December and some of you have already put up your Christmas trees. I'm not gonna say much about that, except to say it's a little bit too early. Mine will go up 12 days before Christmas and we're gonna leave it at that, but yeah, we're in December.

Speaker 2: 0:40

This is my 96th conversation, which means either I'm trying to do the maths either at the end of the year or the beginning of 2025, it will be episode 100, which is going to be absolutely amazing. So I just wanted to take this opportunity to say thank you honestly. Thank you because I can see the numbers. You can't see the numbers, but I can see the numbers. You can't see the numbers, but I can see the numbers, and it's been really nice to see how the podcast has been growing. The downloads and the list and the numbers have increased.

Speaker 2: 1:16

People are supporting me on Ko-fi by buying me a cup of coffee, so I really, really appreciate it, because I'm not exaggerating when I say without your support, this podcast would not continue, because it's a lot of work. I'm not going to lie, it's a lot of work. However, I enjoy talking to all of my guests, so it makes all of the hard work that happens once the conversation is over. It makes all of that hard work worth it, and I can't wait for 2025, because there's even more amazing guests for you to listen to. So thank you for your support again.

Speaker 2: 1:52

If you'd like to support me by buying me a cup of coffee, the link is in the show notes and I'm going to get on with the show. So in episode 96, I'm in conversation with author Louise Minchin, and if the name sounds familiar, that's because she spent 20 years on the BBC Breakfast red sofa, and in our conversation, louise and I talk about how it really feels to start a new writing career after a long career in journalism, how not to get lost in other people's brilliance when you're a debut writer, and how her experience on I'm a Celebrity inspired her debut novel, isolation Island. Now, as always, sit back or go for a walk and enjoy the conversation, louise.

Speaker 1: 2:38

Minchin, welcome to the Conversation. It's an absolute joy to be here because I've listened to conversations and I think they're brilliant, and also not just brilliant they're fun, but they to be here because I've listened to conversations and I think they're brilliant, and also not just brilliant they're fun, but they're really helpful because I think there's so much about the publishing industry that are unknowns and, honestly, there's so much I've learned from your podcast, thank you oh well, that is amazing to hear because that was one of the questions like I was going to ask you.

Speaker 2: 3:00

Because you know you had such a long, a long career in television and as a journalist, does it feel strange to be like a debut, to be starting again in this new career?

Speaker 1: 3:12

yes, it absolutely does it, it feels so, first of all, um, I did write. So I wrote um back in I think it's 2018 and I'm looking over there to see my book as if it could tell me. It's called dare to try and it's all about my triathlon journey. So, um, I think that came out in 2018. So that was non-fiction, um, and then it was.

Speaker 1: 3:31

I always wanted to write fiction and that's why, when somebody asked me to write non-fiction, I was like I would absolutely love to do that, because I think if you're going to write, you need to write. It sounds obvious, doesn't it? But it's, it's. You know, that to me seemed the best thing to do, and so when I did that, that was obviously about my triathlon journey and it was nonfiction. So it was all stuff I knew, stuff that I'd done and that in itself, felt pretty scary. I then wrote another nonfiction book called Fearless Adventures with Extraordinary Women, which came out last year, and then finally got to the thing I really, really, really wanted to do, which was write fiction, write a thriller. And yeah, it's super scary because even I mean, I learned so much during those journeys with Dare to Try, etc. Which has really, really helped.

Speaker 1: 4:19

But, yeah, stepping into that world which is occupied by amazing authors like you. Stepping into that world which is occupied by amazing authors like you and you know, I've made lots of friends now in the sort of crime writing community because they are incredibly, um, I love, I love you all, by the way, and you're very welcoming. But it doesn't mean to say that it's not scary being the new person on the block and also being pretty clueless about lots of things which I'm learning along the way, um, but yeah, it's definitely putting myself out there in a way that I've, you know, I've, obviously, I used to present breakfast in front of six million people and that's scary in its own way. But you know, you, you get used to what you do, don't you?

Speaker 2: 4:54

yeah, you do. I mean good thing, because I always used to watch you on BBC breakfast and when you, you know, when you're experienced in your own profession and you've been doing yeah, like you are yeah, it's like the same way I feel about law.

Speaker 2: 5:06

It's like I you know, I know law, I know the courts, the courts that I can walk into, a courtroom. And there's always that initial stage where, oh my god, I don't know what I'm doing. But you learn and you become proficient in what you're doing. But when you enter into a completely new arena and you're watching everyone else around you, it can't help but feel intimidating yeah, I, and that's how I do feel, and also, you know, obviously I read all of you extensively as well.

Speaker 1: 5:30

So I mean that kind of helps, because but it also doesn't help, because you just go, oh my gosh, that's utterly brilliant, how have they come up with that? What a brilliant twist and all the rest of it. But, yeah, no, it's definitely um, but I've been so. So Isolation Island has been out now, gosh, it feels like a really long time, but it's not actually.

Speaker 2: 5:47

But it's not that long. No, it's not, is it? It's not long at all.

Speaker 1: 5:51

No Gosh, that's a real leveler actually, because, also, you know, I think it's very easy and I know people have talked about this on your podcast to get swept up in other people's numbers. And swept up in other people's numbers and they've sold, you know, they've been on the bestseller list which I've not been on the Sunday Times bestseller list and they've, you know, been signed for x six. You know, six figure deals and then I have to work out what that is and work out, oh no, I've definitely haven't got one of them. You know, and it's a, it's a very I think it's really, um, I mean, you guys have all been so helpful about not for, for example, reading the reviews. That's been super helpful.

Speaker 1: 6:27

But also it would be a try not to kind of get lost in other people's amazing brilliance and think, oh gosh, why is my book not like that, or can it ever be like that, or whatever. You know it's hard, isn't it? It's like this sort of sea of information and people doing brilliantly and you just think, oh, I would really love to do that. But obviously you need to write a really excellent book and things need to happen along the way that are out of your control.

Speaker 2: 6:54

That's what I'm coming to Nadine it's out of my control it takes a while for you to get there, to realize that it is out of your control, because you can't help. When you're entering something new to you know, look at everyone else, because you have nothing else to compare it to it's not like, well, I don't know if you've got like a whole crew of people around you. All your friends and family are in the industry. Then there's someone to feed back up. But when you're just it's you alone entering into a new space, it's like you can't help. But look at what's going on. But you you have to tell yourself no, I need to step back.

Speaker 1: 7:25

Yeah, thank you. I'm just going to take lots of advice from you, by the way, also lots of things that are really different to me, like, for example, I mentioned six million people. That is how many people six to six and a half million people used to watch me every day on BBC Breakfast. So big numbers are something that I'm kind of accustomed to, but big numbers it's low, it's low. Imagine if 6 million people bought my book. I mean that'd be absolutely incredible.

Speaker 1: 7:53

But you need to know that. You know that is incredibly unlikely. And the figures in books you know people are putting my book is I'm just going to check on the back I think it's 20 pounds, exactly. It's hard back at the moment, um, and that's a lot of money. And you know people have got to take a leap, in a way that they're just switching on the telly and I'm there. I just happen to be there. It's not that they're making a kind of choice with their cash and that that again is the learning. And why should they read my book when there's there's loads of books out? You know there's so many brilliant books about right by authors who absolutely fantastic, so why would they choose mine?

Speaker 2: 8:27

because I think, because they know, they feel like they know you, because they said there are six million people, including me, watching you every morning at I always say like at city o'clock in the morning when I was getting ready for work. I'm like, oh my god, I can barely see, but we're watching you. So it's like, well, of course, what?

Speaker 1: 8:42

you're not really just making a cup of tea.

Speaker 2: 8:44

Listening. I was making my tea in my toast and waiting for the weather. That's what I was waiting for, but I suppose they thought they know you well, I hope you knew, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 8:55

But I mean also to think that, yes, that that is definitely and that's definitely, of course, the case. But you know, to think that six million transfers into any similar numbers is just like. You know that's, that's just not true. And if you know the truth about about novels and et cetera, and you do the actual figures, you know. I mean, what is it that average novel sells? I think five thousand in its whole lifetime.

Speaker 2: 9:18

Yeah, the numbers. No, the numbers are really low for like everything, because was um, like on my, on my sub stack. I was talking about book piracy and and also. And then the average yeah, the average income of authors came into play. Now, the average income for authors is 7 000 pounds a year. That's the reality below.

Speaker 2: 9:39

Yeah, and the minimum wage is, I think it's 23 000 a year, so you're earning for most authors, they're earning less than minimum wage, which is which is crazy. And then I suppose if and you would like to think that if you put all your followers together, so like your followers on threads and blue sky and instagram, that would equate into numbers, which would be amazing in terms of book sales, and that doesn't happen no, it doesn't, oh anyway, but but it's.

Speaker 1: 10:08

I mean, you know, it's really really exciting. It's what I really. I wanted to do this for for 25 years. There was a kind of moment when I when I decided that one day I would write a thriller. So you know, this is something I've always wanted to do and I'm really delighted to have finally, after all those years, done it. And here's my book sitting on my right hand. It's a bit damaged, this one I probably. What have I done to it?

Speaker 2: 10:36

what was it like, though, when you got that copy of Isolation Island in your hand, in comparison to your non-fiction stuff?

Speaker 1: 10:44

oh well, I mean first of all. Um, you know, they always say don't judge a book by its cover. But I genuinely want everybody to judge this book by its cover, because what can I tell you about it?

Speaker 1: 10:54

well, it says isolation, island, but it's um, it's got so in the story there. It's a reality tv show 10 celebrities go to an isolated island off the northwest coast of Scotland and there is going to be and very, you know, agatha christie-esque, and then no one. There's a massive storm on the way, 100 months and 100 year storm, and you know what's going to happen they're going to get cut off and it being a thriller, it's going to end badly, probably for somebody. But what I love about, oh my gosh, when I got the cover, was, you know, you spend a lot of time, or you know, talking to um Hachette, um headline, who are my publishers about it, and then you've got this brilliant designer who goes away and thinks about it and she has done just such a fabulous job hasn't she?

Speaker 1: 11:36

and that we did go through various iterations and that was amazing, to be able to have discussions about the island. But it's a monastery that they're going to live in. It's a derelict monastery, as you can clearly see on the cover, as you can see through the arches, but it's not all. It's not all together, is it? Um, it's got a wonderful sunset and then the water, and it's got the sort of water line across it, under the, the isolation and above the island, which gives you a little bit, you, you. I don't know if you've read it, nadine. Have you read it?

Speaker 2: 12:02

I have, I'm reading, I haven't finished it, but look, so I've got. I'm not testing you what happened on page 48 well, but the the water is.

Speaker 1: 12:12

You know I love water and the water is definitely a really important part. But you just get it and you just think, oh my gosh, this is incredible, this is, but you know, it's been such a long time in the making and it sounds so silly. But to have the physical copy and to feel, you know the first thing, I just was like touching going oh my gosh, it's embossed. You know it's bumpy, that's amazing. My name is embossed. All these things are important though. Yeah, they're so important. And then I didn't like the other day I hadn't opened so obviously hard, hard copies, and I'm so lucky to have a hard copy and they have the paper paper, the jacket, on the outside, don't they? Until the other day I hadn't opened it up to see what my name looked like on the inside and they're all these brilliant sort of surprises that you go through. It's and it's, it's in black and again it looks incredible. So it's an amazing feeling to have it like that.

Speaker 2: 12:58

I've you know what, when I got I think it was the jigsaw man, yeah, the first one. When I got, when I got the hard copy and when I was younger, I was always the person I would immediately take the jacket off the hard covers because I want to see what it looks like and I didn't do that with my own book, and then I think it was like months later, no, until I think I saw someone on Instagram did it and I was like why have I not done that with my own book?

Speaker 2: 13:20

I would have done that with everyone else's book because I want to see what the hardcover actually looks like and it was amazing I think my name was in gold.

Speaker 1: 13:28

Yeah, mine's in black and white and it looks kind of like, really, let's have a look at it.

Speaker 2: 13:33

So it's so isn't that so weird? So I did exactly the same.

Speaker 1: 13:36

I normally take them off because I want to protect the jacket. Actually, that's why I do it. I'm reading I take the jacket off so I can, so I don't damage it like I've clearly damaged my own. But it's that's so weird that we both did the same thing and there it is in black and white. It looks kind of masculine and strong, doesn't it?

Speaker 2: 13:53

I'll be able to find a way to show this to the people.

Speaker 1: 13:56

I don't know how we're going to show it, but anyway, never mind. Never mind, you can go by the book and have a look. Yeah, go by the library, have a look.

Speaker 2: 14:03

But you know, when you came up with your idea for isolation island, did you? You know, you said you said you wanted to write for like 25 years. Did you come up with the idea after you did I'm a celebrity, or had it been brewing around before? I'm a celebrity? I didn't even think I was going to ask you about I'm a celebrity, but I completely forgot. You did it, oh yeah and it's on.

Speaker 1: 14:23

It's on as we speak. I haven't watched it this year. I've been travelling a bit, so there's a kind of two-pronged answer to that. So, first of all, my main character, who's called Lauren, she's an investigative journalist. She's in her sort of early 30s and she does some brilliant sort of undercover investigations, much more what would I say? A kind of you know, because I sat on the sofa and talked, interviewed people I didn't go undercover. So she's a much kind of braver journalist than I ever was. Um, so she had been with me for a long time, ever since I moved up with BBC Breakfast to Media City in Salford, so maybe 12 years or something. I knew I was like, yeah, like long time.

Speaker 2: 15:00

How mad is that?

Speaker 1: 15:01

wow, I know, um, and I'd wanted to write yeah, like long time, how mad is that? Wow, I know. And I'd wanted to write a book with her at the centre of it because I wanted you know, you always have a sort of detective in a book or an investigator and I wanted her to be the investigator. So, from a kind of journalist point of view, and I was going to set her and I'd done a sort of proposal before I went into I'm a celebrity, setting her in a northern newsroom, going undercover, and set, you know, started the beginning of the story, etc. Um, and that was going quite well actually, and then I went on I'm a celebrity in 2021 and in Wales because it was during Covid and if you remember, if anybody's listening remembers I'm a celebrity that year.

Speaker 1: 15:44

This might remind you actually about it there was a once in a hundred year storm called Storm Arwen, which ripped off the roofs of all the production galleries and studios and it was a really big storm. It caused a lot of damage, really serious damage, including taking I'm a Celebrity off air for the first time in its whole history. Taking I'm a Celebrity off air for the first time in its whole history, and we were in the castle at the time and we had this very dramatic night and you can feel echoes of it essentially in Isolation Island when that storm comes to hit celebrities. That's very much written from my own kind of visceral point of view. Um, and we had a very dramatic night. It was really scary, all the doors crashing and things falling down and we were sort of losing contact with the production team because they were essentially about a mile and a half away from us and there was only a security guard with us. I don't know actually, how many security guards, maybe a couple um near the castle. And then we got the next day, obviously, that everything had gone wrong and we got taken away from the castle and little in taxis on our own and sent off into the middle of Wales. I didn't know where to and didn't know how long for and I didn't have a phone and it was all really quite scary. And I remember being driven away from the castle and there's a rain and seeing all these trees that come down and just thought, oh, hang on a second, hang on, lauren could go into a reality show that is massively disrupted by a storm.

Speaker 1: 17:08

That is where she's going to go and sort of undercover she's on. She's she's being her own person. She's in that reality show because every you know when you're looking at those shows and the reason I was invited on I'm a celebrity is they need a narrator, don't they? So they often cast someone in that role and Lauren has enough of a profile that she would she. That's why she's put in the show. But she's actually going in really undercover. Nobody knows why she says yes, because she's been asked, but nobody knows, apart from her, the reason why she said yes it's amazing how your writer brain works, how you can look at things you know.

Speaker 2: 17:40

You're looking at a story, you're looking at this new environment and you're not thinking, oh my god, what's going to happen to me next? How am I going to get in contact with people? You're thinking, hmm, I could use this somehow in a book, because the same thing happened to me when I came back from Grenada and I'd been there when the hurricane hit and I was in Harrogate and I was in the we had agent drinks and my agent hadn't seen me since I'd been back. And he's like how are you? I'm like, no, I'm fine. And I was telling him about what the hurricane experience was like. And then the next question was like so you're going to use this in the book? Absolutely, absolutely, of course I'm going to. It's like, oh, it's such a unique experience. I mean, it was terrifying, but it's so unique.

Speaker 2: 18:25

But your brain automatically is thinking how can I incorporate this into a story and also match it with characters? Because, like you, you've got the character and the character's just waiting to come along and you know for you to do something.

Speaker 1: 18:38

And then you find Lauren is not yeah, lauren had just been sitting there waiting, and you know, and then, and then, suddenly, yeah, it was. I mean, it was a really extraordinary moment and, I think, helped by the fact that when I went, so when I went and I can't remember the books, I'm trying to see if they're there so I wasn't allowed on the I think we were out of the castle for three days. We were not allowed any contact with the outside world. It's still at all, and that I was. No, I was completely on my own. There was a security guard with me who wouldn't talk to me outside the little.

Speaker 1: 19:08

I was in this sort of little um airbnb, which was lovely, by the way, and really warm. Oh my gosh, it was so warm. First thing I did was have a really deep bath because I was so cold and so filthy. But I said to the um, we were allowed to have books. And I said to the runner, who went to, you know, when I had some food and some books, and I said just just get me some thrillers. And they were like which ones? I was like I don't know, just go to, just go to the supermarket and get me three thrillers. And they brought me back and that's what I did over those three days. So I really immersed myself in the world and I just can't remember, because it was a really odd time. I'm trying to look on my shelf to see if they're there, but I actually I think there was one by Claire Douglas, I think. But yeah, so that I really got in the zone and went back into I'm a Cinebity in that thriller zone.

Speaker 2: 19:55

I think that's amazing. You wasn't thinking about survival in a weird way, it was just this is all material. You know, I always find I'm always thinking about character and I always say when I people ask me about they would know. They would always ask me if I'd use any of my old clients.

Speaker 2: 20:15

It's like obviously yes, I've heard people asking that, yeah, I've used bits of them, but I always say I meet. So I've met so many different people that you're very much aware of how characters are formed and what influences people and what motivates them, did you I'm not saying I'm not asking you to name anybody and I'm a celebrity, or even just people you interviewed on the sofa Did you find that interviewing all those people, meeting those different characters, helps you form characters?

Speaker 1: 20:46

I think it's very interesting because obviously people want to say, would love me to say, oh yeah, this person is that person, blah, blah. But actually what I found was that I knew more or less I probably knew eight out of the ten characters really early on. A couple of them changed, but they are not people I met. They're not people I know. They are very much them, they are their own selves and you'll know that the characters really changed quite a lot in the writing of them. So of course they're probably influenced by places I've been and also I also wanted to play with really clearly the kind of two genres.

Speaker 1: 21:29

So first of all, it's a locked room drama in the kind of really traditional sense, isn't it? But also the reality tv, you know they come, they come with a playbook, those reality tv shows, don't they? You know you're gonna get some sports stars. You know you're gonna get, you know whatever you just you know, you kind of know what you're going to get, don't you at the beginning. So I wanted to, I wanted to put my own um spin on that and I think, for example, my Instagrammers, holly and Taisy, I'd never seen, I'm absolutely fascinated by.

Speaker 1: 21:55

I mean, they're not even Instagrammers are they? They're social media stars, but I love watching um, I love watching pairs. I love watching pairs. I love watching, you know, when you see either friendship or marriage or partnership, I'm really fascinated by watching those relationships and I've got two girls, so they have, you know, they're probably more influenced by them in some ways, but yeah, so they morph, but they're not. They are not people that I know. They're not even inspired really by people I know, except for, except for maybe one which is a lovely rugby player, who's Mac, who I love in the beginning in the boat.

Speaker 2: 22:34

He's the big wimp, isn't he? I was reading it and it made me laugh so much because, you know, you have to say it's always for the same way about clients, which I learned very early on, like don't make assumptions about people. So I remember, you know, I I had, I assumed a person was going to be a certain way because they'd been in charge of a certain offence. And then when I met them, I always talk about this woman who'd been arrested for being in possession of firearms and in my head I had her in my head as like a proper gangster's mole. And then when I met her in Stoke Newington police station she looked like my granny yeah, yeah, I remember I was talking about the granny yeah, it looks like my gran and I was just thought it doesn't, it doesn't fit.

Speaker 2: 23:14

So when I was reading the scene with Matt in the boat and you say, you have the image of like well, it's this big, massive rugby player. Obviously he can handle anything and he's just there in bits about to pass out in the boat oh, I had such fun with them.

Speaker 1: 23:30

I really did. And then and then the whole thing about writing non-fiction to fiction is, and I used to speak to authors like you because I was really lucky, I interviewed loads of authors on BBC Breakfast and I'd speak to authors and they go yes, well, my characters do things I don't expect and all those things, and I honestly would look at them and think that this is just cannot be true.

Speaker 1: 23:49

But it becomes true it's so strange, isn't it? But I think it was a real moment and kind of and I hope this can happen to me again in my life, and there's absolutely no guarantee it will there was a scene, there's a really important scene, which is it? Actually in the middle of the book and you'll know the one I'm talking about if you've read it and and it's between two of my main characters, and I wrote that scene literally on two days before my final, final deadline. My editor, my lovely editor, lucy, at Headline, had said to me Louise, we need one more scene between these two characters, and and I knew she was right, I absolutely knew she was right, but I just couldn't see it, I couldn't find it and I was really, really struggling with it. And I just went through, one more read through and it was a question of Lauren that's a clue turning left, not right and then she went into the room with A another character I won't say who it is and because at that stage I'd written them for so long and they'd been living in my head for so long, all I needed to do was put them in the room and then you know, it's like you know your friends, don't you.

Speaker 1: 24:53

You know, if you put them in a situation, you can guess how things are going to kick off. And it just kicked off massively and I just literally had to sit back and and write down as it was kicking up. So that that was gold for me and I don't, you know, I hope that can happen everyone. I don't know if that will ever happen again, again to me it probably will happen, because it's all I said.

Speaker 2: 25:13

It's those moments, you don't. You're kind of forced into a situation because, like me, I'm doing my edits right now and I'm looking at my editor's comments and sometimes I'm like what, what are you talking about? How am I supposed to make that work? And literally before we started the interview, I'm doing my edits and I'm looking at this paragraph and I'm thinking I can't, I don't know how to make it work or how to change it for me to get get the effect that I want. And I literally I walked away and it was all about changing my perspective and instead of sitting down looking at it, I was standing up looking down. And it's when I looked down I was like, oh, I don't need this and I can do, and I was actually just moving things around. It's like I had to take a bird's eye view of it.

Speaker 1: 25:55

Yeah, it's so strange, isn't it? I've had. I had one when I when I just kind of locked myself into a dead end and and with one particular scene, one character particularly, and I just couldn't like you couldn't see a way through, yeah, yeah, and then I just changed location and then by the time I got to the next play, I had to do it anyway. I was in Cornwall, I had to come back home, and by the time I got back home I had forgotten that it was a problem. I think your brain does stuff, doesn't it? Lots of the ideas come to me in the middle of the night and stuff. Your brain is working on stuff, even though when you're not consciously working on it as well that's all that's.

Speaker 2: 26:38

That's when you normally get the solutions, when you're standing in front of the sink looking out of the garden and I'm like oh, that's what I should have done, and this is how this character would react so is that an excuse for procrastination?

Speaker 1: 26:52

you're going to give me an excuse to go and do washing up, yeah, well, you do.

Speaker 2: 26:56

You'll do anything. You'll find anything random it doesn't need to be doing. Yeah, and you're going to. This might sound like a weird question, considering that, right, you work in journalism and you've written non-fiction, but when did you know that you could write fiction and tell stories? Because it's a different kind of storytelling.

Speaker 1: 27:15

I don't know, I don't. I just had a feeling about Isolation Island because you know it didn't. You know, don't think this just happened just like that. I took it to lots of different publishers, um, and we had lots of no's, which was really good really thinking yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 27:33

So people would just think no, because you're Louise mentioned, used to be on BBC breakfast and we we know you like, you wouldn't think that people would say no to you absolutely well, yeah, and they, and rightly and rightly so.

Speaker 1: 27:46

Yeah, I knew, I just knew, I just had this gut feeling. I was like I know, this is a good idea, I know I can do this. Um, when did I know I could write? I think I think for me, actually, it was when I'd written Fearless Adventures with Extraordinary Women, which is all about women breaking barriers in sport, and in every chapter I went to go and interview a different incredible woman about the thing that, the sport that they loved, and there's a particular chapter in there and it's about free diving under ice in Finland with this amazing woman called Kath Pendleton who's an ice swimmer. I'm like, no, not OK.

Speaker 1: 28:20

So so I think I realized that I could write and make people engage with my writing. When I went, I was being interviewed about that and this very seasoned journalist male journalist, who you know is a really brilliant journalist said to me Louise, you've been giving me anxiety, dreams. What he said, that free diving under ice honestly it's given me, it's terrified me, and I just never, until that point, thought oh OK, I can write, I can make people. I didn't even realize in that, in that chapter, that it was scary and that people would be like literally physically kind of engaged with my writing. At that point I thought I thought, okay, okay, maybe I can write it's weird.

Speaker 2: 29:11

I'm just thinking and I'm thinking, obviously it is. It's a different skill set to interviewing someone and presenting someone's story that way orally, yeah, in comparison to doing it on the page yeah, it is, and I particularly like um when I'm writing.

Speaker 1: 29:29

I think, hopefully in isolation Ireland, you will feel immersed.

Speaker 1: 29:33

So I'm all about how things feel, how they smell, um, how it makes you feel. So I'm going back to that and the free diving under ice. You know people they feel like they've been under the ice and they felt that crossophobia. So, yeah, it is completely different, but that for me, the kind of really tactile writing, is not something that I used to do, obviously on on the news etc. But that for me, is where I find magic and I particularly enjoyed that type of writing. And then also, you know, I think, hopefully, um, isolation Island feels like a bit of a roller coaster, it's a bit of an adventure. You know, I like being on adventures, so that that's the kind of writing that I never you know, I never obviously got to do on BBC Breakfast it was all very um one dimensional in some ways it's where it's, it's so it's.

Speaker 2: 30:19

I said it's just so interesting because I think because of my, my other I say my other job and I always say to the baby lawyers like we are always yeah, the baby lawyers, as I called it.

Speaker 2: 30:30

I always think I need to stop calling them baby lawyers, but they're the baby lawyers. But I always say to them when you're doing closing speeches, even when you're telling a story to the jury, and you want them to stick with you and follow you and go through those ups and downs and also be invested, but also believe in what you're saying. Also and that's what you want to do as writers you want the reader to pick up the book and believe that they're there and be invested with all the characters and follow you right through to the last page yeah, and I think that maybe that, um, all I can say on uh, bbc Breakfast was that I mean in the writing, you know I could explain, I could tell you the headline from Isolation Island.

Speaker 1: 31:14

You said to me so my writing like I'm really, I used to be really good. Well, occasionally my colleagues might disagree with me, but my previous colleagues writing, you know, writing a 10 word headline and obviously you know 10 words and 90,000 words is a massive difference, but actually every sentence is the same, isn't it? You've got to invest in it. I don't know just like capture that moment, you know, in those headlines you've got to get the story right, haven't you?

Speaker 1: 31:41

yeah that's what I mean and invest it with the right gravitas if it needs it, or kindness if it needs it, or whatever. So every single sentence in the book is probably similar to writing a headline, but obviously, you know you add them all up together. Does that make sense? It makes sense, but I love storytelling. You know I love storytelling and that's why you know I love um on BBC Breakfast. The reason I became a journalist was I'm interested in you know what's happened, why it's happened to, who it's happened and how it's impacted them. Um, so stories for me have always been absolutely fundamental. At what, what? I'm interested in reading as well. I mean, I was an avid reader. I'm looking, I've got bookshelves and they're sort of bending the bookshelves in here, um, for all the stuff I used to read from when I was young to now. But, yeah, storytelling and and trying to work out puzzles and all the rest of it. I guess that's why I went into journalism in the first place, to try and get to the bottom of things yeah, I think there's.

Speaker 2: 32:33

No, there's a similarity, I think, between lawyers and journalists in that sense, oh, yeah, you.

Speaker 1: 32:39

But yeah, you do really. You know, let's say, you do really good work. But yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 32:44

But you go on and tell me yeah, no, I was gonna say when I was six, I think 16, and we had the careers advisor talk and we then we had our one-on-one of the careers advisor and they asked, and she asked me what I wanted to do and I said it's either journalism or law and it was one of those two things. And then she it's so silly she said to me well, do you want to be outside waiting for the news in the rain? I don't know why she said the rain, but she said do you want to be outside in the rain waiting for the news, or do you want to be inside waiting making the news? And I thought it might. I think I want to be dry. So that's probably why I said is that what happened? This is our conversation. I said no, I think I'd rather be inside. I said, okay, I'm I'll, I'll do the law, but it's that you could have been.

Speaker 1: 33:28

you could have been outside making the news, or sorry, outside outside waiting for news or inside making the news yeah, I think you made a good choice.

Speaker 2: 33:36

Yeah, thank you, I think it was a good choice, but also I think it's that thing of I think for lawyers I think especially criminal lawyers you're trying to understand what motivates people and you're always asking that how, what, why, question. And you're trying if you're defending or prosecuting. You're trying to find the answer to that.

Speaker 1: 33:56

Trying to find the answer to that. Trying to find the answer. That is exactly what I think, and the stories that I found most difficult when I was on the news were the stories that we didn't know the ending. I think it's human nature, isn't it, to want to know the ending and to want you not necessarily that it's okay, because clearly things are not always okay, particularly in the news, um, but, for example, when madeline mccann went missing, I just, I just couldn't leave that story behind because we never knew the ending, and I find so writing for me is about and reading, actually, because there's nothing worse than a book that doesn't kind of wrap things up or you know, you want to know the endings, don't you?

Speaker 2: 34:44

you do, you want it, you and you want to be concluded well, you don't want it to just to be just quickly. Yeah, yeah, and you don't. I hate. You get to the book and you're like like it makes all these promises in the beginning and you get to the end you're like, is that it? Like yeah, that's all you've got and you kind of feel you feel duped, you feel like you're on yeah, well, I don't think I.

Speaker 1: 35:09

I know you haven't reached the ending, but be in contact when you have.

Speaker 2: 35:13

I don't want to say too much I'll only say.

Speaker 1: 35:16

What I'll say is that I knew oh gosh, it's so difficult to do this without spoilers, but I think I can do it without spoilers. So I was really clear who was going to go in. Um, I was really clear about the storm. I knew that they were going to go to monastery. It was going to be derelict monastery. It would be a reality tv show and producers would not be on the island with them. So that's when you know the crux comes. When the storms come, they are all on their own and I knew who was going to die and why, and I thought I knew who killed them. But guess what it changed?

Speaker 2: 35:46

I didn't but I think when you're right, that's what happens. It happens with my second book. Yeah, I knew from, because I'm a planner, so I planned my book and I knew it was going to be the killer.

Speaker 2: 35:59

I knew who the killer was from day one. Yeah, of course you did. I'm like it's person X, it's going to be this person. Yeah, I thought I did. Yeah, and I got to. It wasn't even. It was like halfway, it's not them. I'm gonna change it and like I just knew, I'm like it's not, it's, it's not them, and but I didn't feel like, oh my god, I haven't stuck to the plan. I was like, oh no, this is gonna work yeah, no, exactly.

Speaker 1: 36:25

So that's exactly what happened to me. I think I think I'd actually written the ending and then I realized that that wasn't the ending at all you can go, but that's always the good thing.

Speaker 2: 36:39

I feel like there's a freedom in knowing that you can always go back and change things and you can make it how much did you change? I didn't have to change that much because then I realised that all the interactions that Henley was having with this person, it kind of it did create that red herring sort of thing. So when you so, then you're forced to look back and go like, oh, so there's kind of little clues being laid in the conversation so it's.

Speaker 1: 37:06

I think I changed maybe a couple of sentences.

Speaker 2: 37:10

Yeah, you didn't have to be much. It didn't have to be much for it to work. Listeners, it's time for a very short break. If you're enjoying this conversation with Nadine Matheson and want to help keep the podcast going, why not buy me a cup of coffee? Your support goes such a long way in keeping these conversations flowing. Just check out the link in the show notes.

Speaker 2: 37:32

Can I ask you about the rejection thing, because I just find that oh yeah, you were saying that people were saying you know, can we always talk about rejection on, yeah, on the podcast? And I know I'll always say that it doesn't matter whether you've been published just once or you've been doing it for like 15, 20 years. Everyone's got a story of rejection in publishing and you're surprised at the people who said, yeah, I got told no, but I didn't want this book, even though they'd taken that book and that book had done really well. Did that? Would you surprise when I'm seeing publishers and said we love you, louise, but not, not this?

Speaker 1: 38:05

story? No, no, I wasn't, because you know. Again, going back to what we said right at the beginning, I'm new in this game, um, and and also I think, um, I think, you know, I think it's really, you know, that is the reality, isn't it? That is the reality, yeah, and I think what books need is they need the right people, they need the right place. And Lucy from Headline when I talked to her, she got it, she got me, she got the story and she was super excited about it and she, you know, worked really closely together on it and that has been brilliant. So I think it's all a journey and this, these are part of the journey and, of course, at the time you think, oh, that's really gutting. But actually, you know, I've done enough things in my life, and particularly around sport, and failed enough times in my life to know that you just get on and try again. That's the only way to approach it, isn't it?

Speaker 2: 38:59

yeah, no, it's I. I always say I said failure is not, it's not, it's never the end it. I mean it's like, it's not nice. Sometimes you're like I can't believe this. Yeah, especially when you've.

Speaker 1: 39:10

I should have printed them all out on the emails well, so good.

Speaker 2: 39:14

I'm not saying've listened to some of the podcast episodes and there's some authors I can think of. I say Cosby for one, and then there's another one. You know they've got entire spreadsheets of the rejections, have they? And I think it was Sean who said to me yeah, and he goes, I've got to a hundred.

Speaker 1: 39:36

I was, like, you know, just optioned your, your books and you know 100 people have told you no before that. Yeah, you said it in a spreadsheet, I did it. Oh I, I can't, I can't be bothered with this, but no, I'm not a spreadsheet person no, also, yeah, it's just. It would just be that would. I think that would help with help upsetting you, wouldn't it, wouldn't it? Or maybe they can go and go, haha, um, anyway, so yeah, no, I think it's part of the journey, isn't it?

Speaker 2: 39:57

it's all a journey and that's part of it do you think that because you I'm saying a celebrity and being, you know, having your having your career on tv, with six million people every morning eating their toast and their coffee, watching you, do you think there's an expectation?

Speaker 1: 40:19

be watching you. Do you think there's an expectation for you as an author or did you feel that, um, yeah, I mean I have to. You know, you have to first up. I have to say that because I am have done that. I I'm sure I get advantages that other people don't. Yeah, people will, people will bother to look at my proposal, even if they're rejecting it. Do you sort of mean, so that's a massive advantage, isn't it? Um, and yeah, I think I think there is, I think absolutely is, and rightly so. But I, yeah, and it's um, you know, again, this is journey. This is something I want to do for a long time. So, you know, I've invested kind of heavily myself into it and that's why I'll continue to do and hopefully, what people judge me on is the book rather than the six million and the career before and all the rest of it. Hopefully they judge me on that. I go, god, you know what. That was a really good thriller.

Speaker 1: 41:04

It's a really good one, no, and that's the thing about the other thing about let's have more again is you know, I spent two years, more than two years doing this right and people read it in two days and go really looking forward to the next one. Oh my gosh, have they any idea?

Speaker 2: 41:23

were you surprised at how intense it can be this writing process.

Speaker 1: 41:27

I was really surprised because I, you know I deal in in really obviously deadlines like six o'clock I need to be on air and then also so many things around that the next day by 9 15 in the morning we would get the figures from the night before. So you know essentially your sales figures less than 24 hours later, essentially right, 24 hours later, which you, which in publishing is not the case.

Speaker 1: 41:51

No, um, and then also that whole thing about so I sold the book two years, pretty much to the day before it got published. Yeah, and that's pretty normal, isn't it? Yeah, listen to your podcast a lot, it's normal. Two years, yeah, two years, right. And that to me, when they said, oh yeah, you know you give it in, we want it in by, I think they gave. Did they give it a year to give it in? Maybe they did, and then it won't be published till a year after that. And I just thought what are they hanging around for? And it turns out we needed two years.

Speaker 2: 42:28

I had exactly the same reaction. I remember sitting there with my agent and we were talking I can't remember what editor it was um, and they said, okay, yeah. And they're like okay, yeah, but you signed with us, so this and this would have been March 2019. And they're like so you signed with us in March 2019, then you'll put your book out in 2021. And I was like what do you mean 2021? Well, I've written it. Now it, as far as you're concerned, it's ready to go now. I don't need two years. But then you realise it is actually, it is a process and you may personally need the two years, but the publishers need the two years because you're not the only one there, you are in there in their queue.

Speaker 1: 43:15

Yeah, you're in that queue of marketing and publicity and you know, finding the right date and all that stuff that I didn't know, all that stuff that I didn't know, and actually you know, and all those the edits, you'll go through the drafts, et cetera, with your editor. You know they made a massive difference. You know what I gave in September and what eventually we finished with in February. You know there was a lot of work between then, september and February, a lot of work to be done and really good work.

Speaker 2: 43:42

Yeah, is it a different editing process in comparison to your nonfiction?

Speaker 1: 43:49

Is it? That's a really good question. Yeah, In nonfiction it's much more hands off there really is much much, much more hands-off, absolutely really.

Speaker 1: 44:00

Um so, with fearless, for example, um, I had again a brilliant editor and he, yeah, I mean we, yeah, you know he, he chose. I think he chose I might have suggested the order of the chapters, but he might have chosen the orders of the chapters. We had an argument about one chapter that he wanted to take out and I argued it should stay in, and it did, by the way, and it's one, it's a, really it's a, it's a really good chapter. Um, it's a really good story from the women in it and um so, but it's much, much more hands-off. I would just get on with it, write it and again, in that whole, just yeah, not not the level of editing.

Speaker 2: 44:36

I'm surprised. I don't know why I'm surprised at that.

Speaker 1: 44:38

I thought I don't know because, yeah, I don't know. I think because because, of course, with the thriller, you know, there's a lot around plot isn't there? That needs to be right. Um, and that nuance with characters etc. That needs to be right. You know, my characters in they're not characters, they're real people in in, yeah, um, in, fearless.

Speaker 2: 45:00

So you can't, you know what I mean, you can't change it like you can in a, in a, in a in a novel so I was going to ask you about um doing triathlons, which I think whenever I see anyone do a triathlon, I just think it's amazing. Then I see you doing triathlons. I think you're crazy, but it's amazing that you do them and you love them. But is there anything about training for triathlons and going through the process that you think has prepared you or helped you in any way, shape or form, for this publishing journey?

Speaker 1: 45:31

Yeah, I think I think 100 percent. I think that I think about failure. You know there's loads of things that have gone wrong for me in triathlon. I've learned about resilience, particularly in triathlon. You know, like doing a long, you know I do these ridiculous events. I haven't done one this long for ages but I've done extreme Ironman, which takes me 16 and a half hours. But there is something about my friend did that.

Speaker 2: 45:55

He lived in.

Speaker 1: 45:56

Copenhagen. Yeah, I bet he did it in less.

Speaker 2: 46:00

No, that he lived in. He lived in Copenhagen. Yeah, I bet he did it in less. No, he did one. That went on for days. I don't understand why you're putting yourself through this.

Speaker 1: 46:05

Yeah, it felt like it went on for days yeah, um, yeah, no, I think about you know, resilience, working hard, about determination, about you know, you know, doing something and having to redo it yeah, loads of things really, really helped. And then also, if I'm, if I am, stuck with something, it means that I can go for a run or whatever, and suddenly things change perspective and things can be easier. So it has definitely helped.

Speaker 2: 46:27

What have you found most surprising about this side of the publishing industry as a thriller writer, in comparison to oh, I love, I love the community.

Speaker 1: 46:41

I love people like you, people like Adele Parks, claire McIntosh, you know, ruth Ware, um, I've met so many of this brilliant community and I've loved that. I've loved going to I'm going to Chiltern, kills and Harrogate and yeah, it's a wonderful. I didn't know that and it's a really wonderful community to be in. So that's been fantastic and surprised me, because I missed team. You know I really missed team at BBC Breakfast and you know I have my team at Headline. But it's been really, really that's been lovely because it's a different.

Speaker 2: 47:16

I mean, it's completely different being a writer when you have been part of a team in your previous career, because even you know when I think about. When I'm, you know, practicing as a lawyer. I wasn't doing it on my own. When I was employed, you know I had. There was a whole team of us working together. And then when you move from that being part of something and then you're literally just you and your own in front of your laptop, it's a bit of an adjustment.

Speaker 1: 47:46

I've loved that though, have you? Yeah, I think, because I know you ask people whether they're introverts or extroverts. Yeah, and I am absolutely kind of on the extreme version of both, if that's possible. Do you see what I mean? So obviously, you know you couldn't not be an extrovert if you were, you know, to sit on that sofa and talk to all those people. You know you'd have to be an extrovert, wouldn't you? But I love when I'm sitting in my kind of attic office at the moment and I'm right here and I also write. I've got a static caravan in North Cornwall and I love those moments of complete just being in my own created world and not having to deal with all that pressure and all those eyes on and you know, all the rest of it. So I'm absolutely between the two and I think actually the honest truth is I'm much happier being the introvert are you?

Speaker 2: 48:44

yeah, this is your, this is your happy space now yeah, I'm really happy.

Speaker 1: 48:49

I mean, it's kind of weird as well, because then you have to get back to the other extrovert space occasionally and I obviously do, obviously work in that space still. But you know this, I'm really happy here. I'm happy here in my kind of own version of chaos and, yeah, working with my own character. So, yeah, absolutely, I would say these sort of extreme version of both, if you can be that yeah, are you glad it's happened now?

Speaker 1: 49:11

so like this part this yeah, that's a really good question that somebody, I think my mum, asked me the other day did you wish that you'd done this earlier? I think what I bring to it now is a lot of life experience and yeah, no, I wouldn't, I wouldn't swap anything that I've done. I mean, maybe, maybe, maybe if I could started when I was 45, that would have helped, rather than having my first actual novel published at 56. But hey, um, but I had already started the journey. You know I was already writing Dare to Try then. So it's been a long time. It's been. It's not like a, it's been. I have been in this game for quite a long time already. Um, yeah, so I don't wish that, I don't wish anything was different, and I think I bring a lot to it now that I wouldn't have done before.

Speaker 2: 50:00

But I think that's a good thing for people to know that this didn't just happen overnight. You didn't just sit down one Sunday and decide, oh, let me just write a book. But I think that's what people can think when it comes to, I say, celebrity authors. Yeah, I don't know why I did the air quotes. I hate that.

Speaker 1: 50:25

You can do that, it's fine. Oh yeah, no, it's not. That's not the case for me. No, for me, that is not. It's something I've been, absolutely I've been, it's been, and then, even when so so dare to try um happened. That was very funny actually. Have you got time for me to quickly tell you the story? I have a lot of time.

Speaker 1: 50:35

So I've been doing my triathlon and I already knew that I wanted to write, et cetera, but I just wasn't writing because I obviously had a job on the actual television that took up loads of time and I kept thinking, oh, I should be writing this down because maybe, maybe I don't really think they would be, but maybe somebody might be interested in this. And then I got an email, through a random email that wasn't the BBC and came, you know, some random email from someone saying Matt, hi, my name is Matt, I'm from Bloomsbury, we've been, I've been looking at your sport journey and I'm wondering whether we'd be interested in you writing something about it. And I, genuinely I ignored it because I thought it was some random punter who wanted to get up for a drink.

Speaker 1: 51:16

Someone sliding into your DMs and then, yeah, yeah, exactly given that I wanted to be a writer. A few months later he emailed again and I just thought, oh my gosh, maybe I'm being complete idiot here and I did a bit of googling and, yes, it was matt and he was from bloomsbury and he was utterly serious. So that was amazing because, you know, it was what I wanted to do. He, amazingly, offered me that opportunity and I, you know, I would not have got that opportunity had I not been on BBC Breakfast. So it was incredible. So I so I decided to do that and in order you know, I'm a planner, right, I, like, you know, I didn't just sit on the sofa just because I fancied being on BBC Breakfast. You know, I've had a long time in journalism. I started making tea on the Today programme. You know this is. Do you know what I mean? It's been a long time this sitting on the sofa, so, and a lot of different jobs over many, many years and lots of different places, right, and I just thought, when, when he asked me to do that, I was like okay, so what do you want to? You want to be a writer, louise. So this is a great opportunity. Say yes to that and at the same time I got another.

Speaker 1: 52:19

Somebody else got in contact saying did I want to write a column for Cheshire Life? And I just thought, yes, if you're going to be a writer, write. You know, just write. So, um, I don't quite know what the point is, but yeah, it's been a long. You know, this is a something that you need to practice. You can't just sit there. I don't think magically it happens and I't know. I've not read Dare to Try recently and I love to kind of look and see how much my writing has changed, but I suspect it has changed and I can in fact even talking about it now. The kind of visceralness that you get in Fearless is definitely a move on from what I wrote in Dare to Try and then hopefully I've moved that now into thrillers and into fiction.

Speaker 2: 53:01

But no, but it's definitely there that visceral nature of your books in.

Speaker 2: 53:04

I say thank you, and I'm not just saying that because, like you're reading it, and especially because I always talk about Grenada a lot, because you know it's an island and I've spent I've lost count on the amount of boat journeys I've done, like from the mainland to Karakoo, the small island, and we've done it in perfect weather. And we've done it when you've been, like from the mainland to Karakor, the small island, and we've done it in perfect weather. And we've done it when you've been going against the tide and it's pouring down with rain. And I've been on boats. When I think what happened, I think it was during COVID, so the small, like hovercraft, wasn't running, so they had us on a cargo boat, so I've been on a boat with cows and donkeys like crapping themselves because the sea is so bad.

Speaker 2: 53:44

So you've had, so I've got, all these experiences and when I was reading but he's like the prologue you read the introduction of them oh, brilliant island, yeah, and I'm like, no, this feels like I feel like you were there, like it doesn't right good it doesn't feel like you read it somewhere, if that makes sense it feels this is someone who was? This was there.

Speaker 1: 54:08

I wasn't on that boat, but I've been, like you've been, on boats where I've been scared, essentially yeah, I go to sleep, though that's what I do.

Speaker 2: 54:15

My dad's always like I don't understand you. It's like yeah, I'm like, I'm just going. It's my response to stress oh my gosh, that's great, yeah, I go to sleep. I'm not here for this have you read?

Speaker 1: 54:27

have you read? I'm just really absolutely addicted, by the way um the Last Passenger by Will Dean no, I haven't.

Speaker 2: 54:33

I've got it, but I haven't got it. I haven't got, I haven't read it yet um.

Speaker 1: 54:36

So, that said, I've just come off a the Queen Mary 2 on this amazing literary festival which is called Cheltenham on Sea, and we went on the Queen Mary 2 from Southampton to New York and it's a festival on the ship which is incredible. Anyway, I'm reading the Last Passenger and thank goodness I did not read it before I went on the ship because it would have absolutely terrified me. And I'm so addicted that as soon as I get off here I'm going to go do washing up, right, and I'm going to. I'm listening to an audible, I cannot turn it off and I'm utterly, it's utterly terrifying, but he does it brilliantly, but I just think that's so. I love those books. Well, go in. Has it got a good one?

Speaker 2: 55:13

that's good narrator, because it's important, really good narrator yeah, yeah, good narrator?

Speaker 1: 55:19

yeah, absolutely, and that's so important, isn't it? Do you listen to lots of books on audible as well, then?

Speaker 2: 55:23

you know I didn't used to, but now I have, because, especially when I do what I go walking in the morning I need something like I don't want.

Speaker 1: 55:32

I love the way you say at the beginning of the podcast go for a walk go for a walk.

Speaker 2: 55:38

I don't know where that even came from. I was like could you either do one or two things, either sitting around doing something, or you are. Yeah, a lot of people say, oh, I listen to it when I'm out on my walks. I'm like go for a walk, but I can't. I'm now, I'm listening to more audio books when I walk. Yeah, and narrators are so important because I was listening. I'm not going to say who it was. I was listening to one um, and I don't think I got through the first five chapters because it was an American narrator and then he. There was a Scottish character in the scene and it was the worst Scottish character I've ever heard. And the thing is, this character, he was there for ages and after that I was like no.

Speaker 2: 56:14

I can't, I just have to, so my, my narrator is brilliant.

Speaker 1: 56:16

She's called Daphne Kumar and she absolutely gets it. She's so they're 10 characters and she has to do all of them and she does Mac, the Scottish one really well. Um, and I, you know, I just you're right, it's so important and I actually narrated, uh, fearless and Dare, to Try, I did them myself, obviously because they're my story, so that was um, so that was fun, but I haven't. I have obviously I haven't done this one because it definitely needs an actor to be able to bring all those different voices.

Speaker 1: 56:43

That would be so awkward if I tried to do that. And then they bring something else to the game, don't they? Because Nico, who you'll know, I imagined him to sort of be of Greek origin when I wrote him, but actually in in Isolation Island on the, on the narrated version, he's French. So that's great and it's totally fine.

Speaker 2: 57:04

By the way, I need to listen to it now, this is the thing I found about audiobooks.

Speaker 2: 57:13

I found back in when was it the summer? Yeah, because my last one came out in May, so it must maybe it was. And around April and I went to the studio to watch them record the audio. I did too, yeah, but I what I found was, you know, it was lovely meeting because the actress, she'd done two my first two books she's narrated, so it's amazing meeting her. But then what I also found was that you're fully it sounds weird, but you're fully aware of like the structures of your sentences and how dialogue sounds, because it's completely different to what you write on the page. And then it's made me think about how I write dialogue in the next book and I wouldn't have got that if I hadn't.

Speaker 2: 57:56

Yeah, and the thing is, I've listened to my audio books. I wanted to hear what it sounded like, but for some reason it was different being in the studio.

Speaker 1: 58:04

Oh, that's really interesting. I might do that then before the next one. And also, I just think the audio book brings another level to it, doesn't it? That you can't do, and there will be nuances that they'll do differently that you haven't maybe seen in the book as well yeah no definitely, yeah, yeah, and also made me aware I'm like you've used too many words.

Speaker 2: 58:26

Nadine, you definitely use like one word and not four to describe this one thing. So, before I go into your final set of questions, louise, what is, yeah? What are you working on next?

Speaker 1: 58:43

Oh my gosh. So about three things, which is not terribly satisfactory. But so, basically, I'm desperate. It sounds, you know, it's like a visceral thing. I'm desperate to write again Headline. At the moment they've got two ideas in which are very different, ideas in which are very different, and they are making a decision around around those. And I get to meet my editor next week and I'm hoping that she says yes, go, louis, I just want to. You know, I've desperate. It sounds so ridiculous, isn't it? But no, it doesn't though.

Speaker 1: 59:13

You just wait, you just want to go yeah, and also you know, ideas like it took me 12 years to find the right place for Lauren, so that was, and also I wasn't concentrating on it then but and it had to be the right place. So, um, I thought, um, so I put in two ideas which which I didn't think I could do, so I gave them. There's one that I've been working on for a while, and then somebody said, can you just slightly do something slightly different? So I just thought, oh, no, again, that whole thing, whole thing. No, I can't. And then these five characters just came storming out of nowhere, and so I put in a proposal around them. So I don't know what's going to happen, nadine, but I just want something to happen.

Speaker 2: 59:50

It's like you're itching to go. You just want to make a start.

Speaker 1: 59:53

I think that's. I think that's good, isn't it? Because you know it's really that whole thing around publicity and I've been. You know it's. It's really that whole thing around publicity, and I've been. You know I did masses and massive talks about fearless, also about isolation island, so I was so wrapped up in those. I think you do need space for the ideas to happen and now you know this is the right time. I'm literally I want to, I want to start. So as soon as I meet her, the better.

Speaker 2: 1:00:13

Hopefully I can crack on yeah, because the ideas think you know. People always say you know where do you get your ideas from. You know and they can. They can come to you in so many different ways. But when you're forcing an idea to come so I was talking to my agent about standalones I said I had a couple of ideas floating around in my head, yeah, and I was like, okay, I'm gonna flesh them out a bit. But when I was forcing it, trying to like build a story out of an idea, it wasn't working and it was so hard in the minute I don't know what I did. I stepped to, I was doing something completely different and all of a sudden I was like, oh, there it is, this is what I need to do.

Speaker 1: 1:00:49

Brilliant so what do you? What are you finishing at?

Speaker 2: 1:00:51

the moment, then I'm doing my edits for book four, so I'm gonna get those done before Christmas, and then I'm gonna have a I don't know what I'm. Well, yes, I do know what I've got to do after that. I'm gonna plan out some more little ideas.

Speaker 1: 1:01:04

She's not saying no, I can see she's not gonna say I'm being cagey.

Speaker 2: 1:01:10

I told you afterwards.

Speaker 1: 1:01:13

I'm being cagey.

Speaker 2: 1:01:14

Okay, right. So now for your question, because we already know that you've been an introvert or extrovert. So I I'm going to ask you what has your publishing journey not the journalism journey, but what has your publishing journey taught you about yourself?

Speaker 1: 1:01:30

Oh, what's it taught me about myself? That I'm way more creative than I thought I was, and actually I didn't realise that I have hyper focus. I mean, I suppose I did have that on BBC Breakfast, but when I'm in writing, that is it Literally. Somebody could come and ransack the house and I wouldn't notice. So that's brilliant, but also quite annoying when my poor husband comes back and I've created chaos because all I've done is just like be with my characters, all day.

Speaker 2: 1:02:02

How long does it take you to write your first draft?

Speaker 1: 1:02:06

oh gosh, I'm trying to think. So it started in. I started in January and September nine months oh, that's not bad, is that not bad?

Speaker 2: 1:02:15

oh, no't think so. No, I think that's good.

Speaker 1: 1:02:20

I actually think it's good. Yeah, nine months, but it kind of got really like at the end. You know, you think well, nine months to me in my old job seems like a really long time, right, yeah, and towards the end it was just like going down a motorway at 90 miles an hour with a dead stop at the end of it, and I honestly that last night before I gave it in the last week, I was up all night doing it, which is ridiculous it's that last week it's a.

Speaker 2: 1:02:55

it's a very strange space to be in because you probably you do end up. I don't think I'm a hyper-focused person, but I think in that last week of like it has to be done and I've got to meet this deadline, Everything else just disappears and I always say like my hair turns into a mess and I just survive on Deliveroo and Uber Eats because I can't even think about putting a menu together for, like, what am I going to eat? It's just easier just to go on an app because it's just all about the book and just getting it done.

Speaker 1: 1:03:26

It was absolutely bonkers. I mean I think I did I can't remember, but it was just bonkers. I was up all night and then you know, trying to go over, do like one more pass, but it's ridiculous. It's like it's too late, louise, you need to just give it in yeah, there comes a point.

Speaker 2: 1:03:42

I'm like I can't see it anymore, because all the words are just no, you can't see it.

Speaker 1: 1:03:46

No, you can't see it so you just have to.

Speaker 1: 1:03:48

Yeah, I'm like I do remember, I remember, I remember, um, you know so. So doing all of that, and then waking up at four in the morning, I must have obviously gone to bed at that that night. Waking up at four in the morning, I must have obviously gone to bed at that that night. Waking up at four in the morning and just like these thoughts racing through my head and saying I'm just gonna have to get up because there's no point lying here. I might as well just get up and continue doing this crazy edit, but anyway, I don't, I don't know, so so you do the show.

Speaker 2: 1:04:15

That makes me feel a lot better yeah, and then what do you do when it's all over? Because I normally just go, I'm done, I'm going, I leave my office, I close the door and I'm like I don't even want to see you and I give it a couple of days. If I go in and I start clearing stuff up, I just, I just close the door.

Speaker 1: 1:04:32

I wasn't even doing it in my office. I was traveling because I was doing stuff for fearless and my husband had to basically come with me to drive me because I was doing stuff for Fearless and my husband had to basically come with me to drive me because I was going down to Devon or something. It was like a five hour drive followed by another and he literally had to come with me so I could be in the car.

Speaker 2: 1:04:49

Oh, my God.

Speaker 1: 1:04:53

Oh, next time let me not do that.

Speaker 2: 1:04:56

It will happen again. I always think no. I always say to myself next time will be different, I'm going to plan it differently. I'm not going to be at a point where it's that last couple of days and I'm like I'm going slightly mad, but no, it happens. Yeah, it happens again. Okay. So what challenge or experience and I would say it could be a good one so challenge or experience in your life shaped you the most?

Speaker 1: 1:05:17

oh, gosh, that's really hard. I should have. I did read that and I did think about it. Um, I think okay, um, this is not a kind of joyful story, but it is in the end. So, um, and I'll tell it very briefly I have I've talked to people about this before um, when just before my daughter was born Mia, who's now 23, and she was born, and six days later I had a burst appendix, and before it was, I've told the story before, so I won't not bore you but I won't bother telling you again but it was very extreme.

Speaker 1: 1:05:54

I was extremely ill, so ill that I thought I was probably going to die. Ill, so ill that I thought I was probably going to die and I'm not making light of it at all. But it absolutely fundamentally changed me that, because before then I was a very emotional person who used to get upset about loads of stuff. And after that, when you faced, literally, I just thought I've got a six-day-old baby and I don't think I'm going to make it through this once you've been through something like that. Honestly, I'm so chill now, like I don't cry about stuff. I don't think I'm going to make it through this Once you've been through something like that. Honestly, I'm so chill now Like I don't cry about stuff, I don't over-obsess about stuff, I just think, hey, you know what, every day is a bonus. So, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:06:31

Sorry to drop that on you.

Speaker 1: 1:06:32

It's all right, we don't mind, that's what we do, I don't cry. Yeah, don't mind, that's what we're doing. Yeah, you don't cry, you just just keep it. I don't cry, I'm like. So you know, is that?

Speaker 2: 1:06:44

we're gonna die. No, carry on, okay. So if you could go back to when you were 25 years old and give yourself one piece of advice, what would it be you're doing?

Speaker 1: 1:06:52

great carry on I have a nice piece of advice do you think it wasn't what I was thinking at the time, though I just thought, oh, you know, I was, you know, setting out in journalism, working really hard hours, you know, trying to make an, you know trying to make my own career, and that was hard. So yeah. I just think, just you know, you're doing great that would have been nice.

Speaker 2: 1:07:15

Somebody could have told me that no, that would have been nice, I think, at 20. What was I doing at 25? Was I at law school? Who knows? I think so, but I think at that time you're just yeah, and you're just starting out and you can't really see where it will go, because everything just seems to be like it's a lot and it's hard and you, you just can't, you just can't see the road, especially when there's other people around you and it looks like they're doing well, and you're like, why am I not there?

Speaker 1: 1:07:40

yeah, yeah, and I wasn't earning. You know I was really not earning a lot of money and you know things were pretty hard at the time actually. So, yeah, I just like me to be able to go back.

Speaker 2: 1:07:49

It's all right, carry on you're doing all right, louise, you're gonna be fine. So finally, louise, where can listeners of the conversation find you online? Okay?

Speaker 1: 1:08:00

yeah, best, best place is insta. I really love insta. Actually, um, I do lots about the books and about crazy exercise, and that that's where I that's mostly where I am sometimes tiktok but insta, we'll find you an instant.

Speaker 2: 1:08:15

Did a triathlon thing surprise you like how much you enjoyed it and loved it and just wanting to keep doing it.

Speaker 1: 1:08:22

Yeah, I mean again, I've given up sport for 30 years, so to come back to it was a massive joy and is such a joy in my life, it's such a part of my life. You know, like today I know I'm going to go for a run and I'm starting to be beginning to make plans for next year about what adventures I'm going to do for a run and I'm making something, beginning to make plans for next year about what adventures I'm going to do. But yeah, it's been absolutely. That has been such an important part of being able to do BBC breakfast because that was my safe space, away from all that pressure and again around that kind of control thing. You know, when you're doing, when you're doing sport, you're the one who's making the choices. You're not being judged by anybody or anybody. You know I don't do it because of judgment, I just do it because it's fun for me. So yeah, it's been, it's been absolutely fantastic. Wouldn't change that for the world.

Speaker 2: 1:09:07

I'm asking you more questions, even though we need to be, going. But you know the BBC breakfast thing and like I've seen you get up at like 3 45 in the morning I'm like you're good you are, I 45 in the morning I'm like, oh, you're good you are.

Speaker 2: 1:09:21

I do my research but I'm like the only time I was getting up that early is to go to the airport. Obviously I want to be up at 3 45, but how do you stay motivated when you're getting up so early? You're doing that in intense a job and then, right, I'm now going to train for triathlons. Like how do you say, can most people be like I'm just rolling over?

Speaker 1: 1:09:42

because, um, two things. Number one because, um, it really, it really really helped. Firstly, because it meant that when I was doing those hours, I realized quite early on that if I came home and went to sleep at like rate maybe 12 slept till two I just missed the day. I had no daylight, like really basic stuff, which we all need, don't we, as humans. So it meant that I got home, I went outside and I did some exercise, and we all know that exercise makes you, you know, personally, anyway, it makes me feel better, it makes me sleep better.

Speaker 1: 1:10:14

And then I started. I was having a really hard time at work, work, I was going through an equal pay battle, actually as well, and it just gave me an outlet for all that stress where I was in a place where I wasn't thinking about all of that, um, I was doing something for myself, um, and so it was just enormously, enormously helpful. It really was. And you know, if I'd just come home, gone to sleep, woken up, I would have never have given myself the kind of mental space away from a the job and b the things that I was trying to get done at work always say to the baby lawyers always say to them don't let this this one job.

Speaker 2: 1:10:59

I know this is what you want and you've worked really hard to get here, but it's not. This is not all you are. I always say to them you need to find something else outside of this, because it becomes all consuming and it's hard work and it takes up your day. So you need to see daylight. You need to do other things.

Speaker 1: 1:11:25

Yeah, I think, do you know what? What? That is best advice. I think that's advice I give to my daughters. Actually, I'm going to tell them that you need, you just need to have something else, that this is not your whole identity.

Speaker 2: 1:11:29

Yeah, and I think when you're younger, you think that it is, you know, because you said you've worked so hard. No, when you're all younger, just at any stage in your life you've worked so hard to get there and you feel like it defines you and I'm like no, you need to. I think I don't care if you just, I don't know you'd walk other people, your neighbor's dogs, every Tuesday.

Speaker 1: 1:11:46

Yeah, what a great idea.

Speaker 2: 1:11:47

Yeah, if that's your thing, then make that your thing.

Speaker 1: 1:11:51

Yeah, oh well, louise, that just leaves me to say thank you very much for being part of the conversation oh, I've loved talking to you and I, and, as I said, I love your podcast because I do think it's really helpful for people who are stepping into this industry, because so many of your guests give you know, really great information of what it's really like as well in publishing and you know that it's you know, it can be joyous and it can be hard, and that's really brilliant to hear and I think it's good to know.

Speaker 2: 1:12:19

I said oh, I always learn something new after I've had a conversation. I'm like, oh, I did not know that I need I need to make a note. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for listening to today's conversation with Nadine Matheson. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. Be sure to tune in every Tuesday for a brand new episode featuring more amazing guests. Don't forget to like, subscribe and leave a review. It really helps the podcast grow and if you'd like to support the show, you can buy me a cup of coffee or sign up on Patreon. The links are in the show notes and if you'd love to join the conversation as a guest, feel free to send an email to theconversation at nadimappersoncom. Thanks again for your support and I'll catch you next time.